45.25 inches, or 115 cm.
Jay Lonner
Bellingham, WA
Sent from my Atari 400
> On Mar 24, 2020, at 11:29 AM, Leah Peterson wrote:
>
> Hi Jay! You’re so kind. Here’s what we need, I think:
>
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Fantastic. Thanks so very much, Jay!
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 24, 2020, at 11:35 AM, Jay Lonner wrote:
>
> 45.25 inches, or 115 cm.
>
> Jay Lonner
> Bellingham, WA
>
> Sent from my Atari 400
>
>> On Mar 24, 2020, at 11:29 AM, Leah Peterson wrote:
>>
>> Hi Jay! You’re so kind. Here’s
I have one hanging in my garage right now. Ask me what you want measured, and
be very specific (e.g. “length of the chainstay as measured from the center of
the BB spindle to the center of the rear hub”) and I will do my best to answer,
within the limits of my manky old measuring tape.
Jay
I’m sure you’re right about the math.
Does anyone have a real 55cm Cheviot they want to measure for us?
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 24, 2020, at 10:58 AM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> I’m sure of the math and I’m sure that those are numbers on the geometry
> charts. I can’t personally guarantee
I’m sure of the math and I’m sure that those are numbers on the geometry
charts. I can’t personally guarantee that the geometry chart on rivbike dot com
are accurate
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Bill, are you sure?
I know the WB of the new 55 Chev will be 47.28 inches in the 55 cm, and the
difference between the 2 generations is supposed to be that the new Chev has
longer chainstays (and ability to take wider tires and something about brake
posts). The conversion for 1242 mm is just
The geometry chart and the pythagorean theorem tells us that the Wheelbase
of a 55 Cheviut on the geo chart is 1242mm. If you just add Front Center
to Chainstay length, you are really close at 1249mm, but the real wheelbase
is a few mm shorter because of BB drop.
Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA
Speaking of LWB, which Roberta and I were, we have a question. I’m getting a
new Chev which will have a longer wheelbase than its predecessors.
But can anyone tell us what the WB is on the current 55cm model?
As always, thanks, Friends.
Leah (and Roberta)
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Decades ago when top tubes were horizontal and wheels were either 27” or 700c,
going by seat tube length sizing worked. These days not so much. It only lets
you figure out if you can get the seat to the height you want and how long a
post you will need.
I think the larger two sizes of Clem Ls
Those more "enlightened" use things like reach and stack to better
determine a bike's fit - and also consider what these should be based on
different handlebars and so forth. But that's not most people, and in the
case of Rivendell, you have to do a bit of diligence to even find those
I have not relied on seat tube length for some time, it's not a good
indicator of whether a bike/frame will fit or not. It may seem nonsensical,
but wheels size make a big difference. My 53, 26" wheeled Atlantis is more
analogous to a about a 50 in the frames they have now.
All my old
Jason, I think you're spot on about what they call the frames. I start at the
seattube length as a ballpark because I generally know what Rivs fit me, but
the toptube length matters MUCH more..especially on frames that have grown
longer over time while still being called the same number.
And
Some very good visuals there! And while much of the article doesn't
translate very well, I loved this translated line: "Riv has the ephemeral
nature of a frame that is going to become vintage in a matter of seconds"
I jumped on one of the last remaining 45cm Clem H's (46cm stays) because I
Just a data point, but I just saw a blog post from Blue Lug in Japan
comparing the older and newer versions of the Clem L / Clementine... I
used Google translate (for the Japanese->English) and though only so much
came through well, it was still worth reading. The pictures themselves are
What's that long rear rack masmojo?
On Monday, 13 January 2020 11:01:13 UTC-5, masmojo wrote:
>
> Loaded
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/joyDoL5DKMT27NvQA
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My long chainstay bike (Clem) definitely planes.
-Jeremy Till
Sacramento, CA
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"...then we move on to Why Does/Doesn't Rivendell?"
Friction shifters, what's up with THAT?
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Yeah, that's pretty silly. The Long Chainstay Question here on RBW is like
The Planing Question over on iBOB--comes up every 6 months or year or so,
the same people post the same stuff they posted last time, then we move on
to Why Does/Doesn't Rivendell ?
On Saturday,
Yeah, that's pretty silly.
The Long Chainstay Question is kinda like The Planing Question over on
iBOB. It comes up every 6 months or a year or so, everyone chimes in, says
the same stuff they said last time, then we move on to Why Doesn't
Rivendell __ any more?
On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at
I have no doubt that Clems, etc, ride great and that riders adapt to
whatever bike they have, and so on.
Apologies if this has been linked already, but, in case anyone missed it,
here's Grant's post about longer chain stays, schooners, bumps,
skyscrapers:
She likes it , hey Leah !
This reminds of the 70's Life cereal commercial in which 2 boys are given a
new cereal to try that's "supposed" to be good for them . Neither wants to
try it the "new" stuff, so they give it to their younger brother Mikey to
see what happens.
Here's the
I feel like I can kind of chime in here now and say a thing or two about the
new Clem geometry. It’s grown on me. It feels stable and comfortable but not
fast. I always think I’m not going to be able to make the corners but the bike
always does it with no trouble. It’s my own mind that is the
I don't think it's gimmicky. Grant and Co. do most of their riding in the
hills, usually with fairly heavy loads, and I can see why they gravitated
toward longer, stouter bikes. But, like you, I am skeptical of the
advantages of super long stays. Longer is better to a point, sure, but I
wonder
I don't think long stays are saving Grant money. That's trolling.
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>
> Well, I want to like Long chainstays and long wheelbases; I REALLY REALLY
> do, but honestly I don't think the benefits are really there.
More comfortable? More stable? Was I uncomfortable or unstable before? No
not really.
There's far more downsides than up.
The comfort is provided via
I could have been clearer in what I wrote earlier. To begin, my original
post in this thread, now deleted, was an attempt to find objective reasons
for avoiding extra long chain stays. To flip the problem, short stays have
obvious disadvantages -- reduced tire clearance, feet hitting panniers,
Although, some people believe that our whole universe could be a speck of
dust on some other universe. Or that a speck of dust in our universe could
contain a whole universe. In that case, there would be a lot of existence
going on in a vacuum.
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 5:15:46 PM UTC-5,
Thanks for being more specific about why you don't like chainstay lengths
over about 46.5cm. I agree no need to try to measure data scientifically.
Regarding "all rounder", that designation to me denotes a kind of
recreational bicycle that handles paved road and dirt road in a sporty
I think it was pretty clear based on context that 465mm is my approximate /
estimated "upper limit" based on the equilibrium of the various trade-offs.
I also prefaced that this is for an "all rounder" type bike specifically,
and that it's approximate because there are a lot of other geometry /
Party on, Garth
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I agree with all of this. Stays can be too short. I was just wondering at what
point they become too long.
I have ridden bikes with stays at 470 and over — eg, Trek 720, various other
touring and a few cargo bikes — and for general use, I prefer shorter stays.
Purely a feel thing, at 470 and
me
I agree. I have ridden bikes with stays at 470 and over — eg, Trek 720, various
other touring and a few cargo bikes — and for general use, I prefer shorter
stays. Purely a feel thing, at 470 and above frames start to feel boat-y to me,
I don’t like the wider turn radius, I feel little to no
I agree. I have ridden bikes with stays at 470 and over — eg, Trek 720, various
other touring and a few cargo bikes — and for general use, not touring, etc, I
prefer shorter stays. Purely a feel thing, at 470 and above frames start to
feel boat-y to me, I don’t like the wider turn radius, I
No existence existing exists in a vacuum, a-part-from or other than
"Existence Itself" .
Indivisibility
A bicycle or any identification/identity does not and cannot exist
independently from the Life in/as which Existences Exist-ness Exists.
"Existence Itself" is All there/that Exists.
Again, why do you believe this? Why do you pick 46.5? I ask because I find
it puzzling that these kinds of statements get made but with no explanation
as to why, not even anecdotal experiences. I of course have no problem if
you only want to ride bikes with ,46.5 chainstays (a couple of my
You're "not a fan" because why? Which extra long bikes do you have
experience with? What was wrong with the handling (not being able to pop
wheelies notwithstanding)? Just curious.
On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 3:06:26 PM UTC-5, S wrote:
>
> Fair enough. That still leaves the handling of
While the longer stays do create a longer moment arm, they also facilitate
better load sharing between front and rear wheels so that's bound to help,
as well as the flex characteristics of the frame could distribute the
stresses better - nothing we can prove without a good FEA model, but fun to
Fair enough. That still leaves the handling of extra long bikes, of which I am
not a fan for general use — obviously cargo bikes need to be extra long — but a
lot of other people seem to like it, or at least aren’t bothered by it, so
there we are.
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I don't need convincing -- I already have two Rivendells, albeit older
models with shorter chain stays. I know, too, that of course you can
calculate the stresses, but the raw numbers tell only part of the story.
Certainly, we know that frames such as the Gus Boots are more than strong
enough,
For the Engineer - the bike frame is a simple truss - one can calculate the
defection.
But don’t waste you time over thinking a Rivendell - just ride one and you’ll
be sold.
> On Jan 30, 2020, at 5:21 PM, S wrote:
>
> From an engineering perspective, I worry about excessive flex with super
>From an engineering perspective, I worry about excessive flex with super
long chain stays. I don't believe super short stays deliver significantly
better acceleration, but I wonder if super long stays might rob energy from
the drive train, "flubbing out" your pedal strokes. Also, some of the
Yankeebird,
I reread your post and it’s uncanny. My exact situation. I wondered if I was
being too extreme in wanting to be quite upright, but you want the same thing,
and that’s good news to me. Even better news is that we can now accomplish it.
If you don’t like the stem Mark found for you,
So that's the 8cm DD but 2cm taller... That should fix this perfect! Nice!
All my quills on the Clem have been put to minimum insert, both for height and
to reduce the effective reach. Again this is not a problem on my Cheviot, which
is perfect with an 11cm "7" stem. The front end getting
https://www.modernbike.com/nitto-mt-10-long-quill-stem-25.4-35d-x-80-silver
I linked to this over on the Stem Chronicles thread. It's the same stem you
have and find to be 2cm too short. Except this one is...2cm shorter. Also
it should be remembered that because of the heat tube angle, as you
Try reversing your Tallux or DD stems Yankeebird. Let doubt doubt and do
do.
On Saturday, January 25, 2020 at 5:40:37 AM UTC-5, Yankeebird wrote:
>
> Leah, I have a 59cm Clem L. I tried a 50 Tallux that I already had laying
> around, it solved the reach issue but it was too low, and in the
Leah, I have a 59cm Clem L. I tried a 50 Tallux that I already had laying
around, it solved the reach issue but it was too low, and in the end settled on
a 10cm DD that doesn't offer complete satisfaction, good height but about 2cm
too far forward, and it's maxed out.
Please refer to my
Sorry, Yankee, I misunderstood that. Let me try again: Did you try a 50 stem on
a Clem L? What size frame? And how did it feel to you? A little too low? A
lot???
I always thought I liked my bars higher and closer than most, but after some of
the responses, I see I may be in good company...
Yankeebird, how can you tell that the 50 Technomic/Tallux would be too low? I
need to know these things!
Incidentally, I agree that it is (but only because I’ve ridden with it) and I
did order the longer stem. Riv can get it, if anyone is interested.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jan 24, 2020, at
It would be too low with the 50 Tallux, I already tried that, I need the height
of the dirtdrops. Maybe that Soma stem being discussed in the other thread is
the way to go.
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They wear funny outfits and speak with funny accents, but the frame builder
knows his stuff and this is worth 17 minutes of your time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTtC4Rq_ScM
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Dats a long bike!!!
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I can't imagine having a large!?
浪
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You can get a 5cm reach Tallux from Riv and Ben’s cycle. But check the shaft
height.
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Long time listener first time caller.
There is a lot of focus here in regards to the chainstays, but a lot of the
problems Leah describes in terms of finding a stem/handle bar that work is
because the '19 Clem L was stretched going forward in the cockpit. I have
also had some issues getting my
I have kind of standardized on the Brooks B68. I have had little trouble
buying NOS Brooks B68 saddles on eBay. I have 2 aged versions - brown with
laces (already broken in out of the box - very comfortable), 1 B68S (black,
shorter version with chromed rails and laces - going on the Wife's
Leah, sadly it looks as though Brooks has discontinued the B68 & B72 saddles.
B72 was my favorite, but somewhat awkward due to the double saddle rails that
required a conventional seat post for the special clamp or an adapter.
The B68 had no springs, but like many conventional Brooks saddles did
[image: CalvinStopThinking.jpg]
On Monday, January 13, 2020 at 11:23:13 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!
wrote:
>
> Loaded, indeed! Nice work.
>
> My sis is visiting and we rode Clems last night and today. She took my
> Clementine and then a few miles later, we switched.
>
> “THIS BIKE
She is SO your sister, Leah
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Loaded, indeed! Nice work.
My sis is visiting and we rode Clems last night and today. She took my
Clementine and then a few miles later, we switched.
“THIS BIKE IS WEIRD!!!” she shrieked.
“That’s your same exact bike,” I said flatly. “Yours is green. Mine is blue.
Same bike!”
Now, she had
Loaded
https://photos.app.goo.gl/joyDoL5DKMT27NvQA
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Aye, John, the R14. Gave the grocery clerk a show by saying, "Sure, I can
strap it on top", and an encore wen I pulled out me knife to punch a new
hole in my belt. Grin.
With abandon,
Patrick
On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 6:43:41 PM UTC-7, John Phillips wrote:
>
> Hi Both Patricks,
>
>
Hi Both Patricks,
Agreed, I keep my 32R Nitto big back rack on my Hunqapillar 24/7,
because it handles everything so easily, from huge heavy loads to my
minimal cafe load of two heavy d-locks (I admit to being paranoid about
bike theft).
I was just curious as to how Deacon Patrick
Like Patrick of the Moore says, were I to intentionally set up the QB for
loads of 30-40 lbs, I would go with a full sized rear rack, panniers to get
the weight as low as possible, and a saddlesack on top. A light camping
setup for all weathers can be done that way, as well as regular errand
A! Grin. Well, wrong. Grin. I have whatever the saddlesack (large) new
equivalent is, on the not-full sized rear rack. I just carry two Irish
straps in case of need. I strapped the weight on as tightly as I could atop
the saddlesack, that caused the saddlebag, which sticks over the end of
John: FWIW, I have very often carried 30 lb and more -- record, weighed,
was 45 lb -- in rear panniers on light steel frames with stiff racks; racks
including either the wonderfully stiff but only 11 oz Tubus Fly, or my
various Chauncey Matthews customs. Not for long distances; =/< 10 miles;
but
Hi Patrick,
I'm sorry, I meant *how* do you like to carry your 30 lbs of groceries
when you're riding your Quickbeam? Do you distribute the weight? Load it on
a rack, in panniers, in a backpack, or? Just curious about how you end up
handling that much weight on your Quickbeam?
John
On
You know, John, it's not something I plan to do, but everytime I've done
it, it's gone well. I'd describe it as road credit card touring worthy, but
I'd not want to do single track with that type of weight.
With abandon,
Patrick
On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 3:08:09 PM UTC-7, John Phillips
Patrick, how do you like to carry 30lbs of groceries on your Quickbeam?
John
On Sunday, January 12, 2020 at 10:35:27 AM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> I just returned from a spirited grocery run on the "wrong" bike
> (Quickbeam), and it handled it just fine, as presumed. To the point of
>
I just returned from a spirited grocery run on the "wrong" bike
(Quickbeam), and it handled it just fine, as presumed. To the point of
having multiple bikes and enjoying each for what it is apart from the
question of which would you keep if you could only have one, it was a
delight to hop on
As I recall the "expanded geometry" with it's sloping TT was about fitting
a broader range of bodies with fewer size offerings.
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I could certainly be wrong, but I don't think "getting bars up higher"
is/was the only reason Rivendell leans in the direction of a bigger frame.
>From my experience, riding bicycles that are the short side of "French
Fit", most other factors being close to equal, there is more a feeling of
I had a bronzey green Clem. If Leah thinks the blue shimmers like the sun is
pouring throught it, wait til she sees THAT!
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Yes. In fact the business I work for makes color matching booths used by
manufacturers to check color under various light qualities. The
greeny-bronze is amazing in person. It can go from a classic three-speed
green to a more bronzey green to that almost yellow lime green in the sun.
I'm glad
Someone's been reading this thread
https://www.rivbike.com/products/long-chain
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Yes, but I'm not explaining why it would still make sense if they say it, I'm
explaining that it's an old theory which doesn't hold up well anymore. Even if
they still say it.
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Yes, but on the other hand, both Will and Grant steered me toward a 59 Clem
L. I am 5'10 (or at least I was a while back). They did not insist and
immediately dropped it when I described my preference, but that was the
predisposition. I believe my proportions are similar to Grant's and he
Who likes wrenches? I do, so I shall throw one in the conversation! Y'all are
correct that "get the biggest frame you can fit" was/is a Riv mantra about
getting your bars up high where they belong, but it originated during the early
days when Rivs still had mostly-level toptubes and sourcing
All Rivs that I have ridden have feel extremely nimble to shifts in weight
for steering. If you like bikes that are really sensitive to steering
input, then there is a huge variation in this sensitivity across Rivs. The
Roadeo is steers beautifully--not twitchy in the least. The steering
carves
I think part of my comment earlier about Leah (or anybody really) liking a bike
if they have no point of reference, stemmed not only from Leah's experience,
but my own as well. I got way too many bikes and many times what happens is
there are a good many that won't be ridden for several
Eric D., Paul C, and Shoji, thanks for answering my question. That makes me
happy to have the 52!
Shoji, yes, I am really enjoying my new bike. I have all the right bags and
racks and have you *looked* at my fenders? 朗 I will get the long wheelbase bar
for my rack and all will be well.
I’m
Hi BBDD,
Happy New Year! And thanks to you and RBW contributors for this thread.
Riv recommends larger size to enable handlebars to-be set in a higher
position relative to the saddle. (Larger frames have longer head tubes,
which means the stem is necessarily higher. Extra-long stems might not
I think Riv recommends the largest size you'll fit because it can make it
easier to get the bars high, relative to the saddle. Basically, on a bigger
bike, your saddle is lower relative to the head tube, so the bars start out
relatively higher than on a smaller bike where your saddle would be
This has been an interesting thread to read, for sure. My sense from
riding mostly older bikes was that head tube angle + trail + front center
length + hand position affected steering and handling more, while rear
center (chainstay) and overall wheel base affected smoothness of ride. The
You can't expect the LWB Rivs to handle like a sport or racing bike. They
don't and weren't designed to. They are different. I have a MIT Atlantis
and it is unlike any bike I have owned. I was not sure what to expect but
once I got it dialed in it's a joy to ride. Horses for courses.
On
Yes, Bill, I agree there is something to the feeling of whatever you rode last
was “right.” You’re also right that it’s nice to let your bikes serve purposes
instead of making them all alike. You would not believe how hard it was (is?)
to get this through my skull.
I am paring down to be
Leah,
I rotate riding between about 4 bikes on a fairly regular basis. They all feel
a bit different. The last one I’ve been riding on a regular basis is usually
the one I think I like best when I switch to another until the next one becomes
the most regular at which point it becomes my
Matt,
No doubt your height affects the feeling of any bike you ride. I was a tad
surprised at your statement that 61 and 62 cm frames fit you. My surprise
is related to my recent experience purchasing an MIT Atlantis. I already
own both a Homer (59 cm) and a Simpleton (58 cm) and thought,
Do let us know how the Black Mountain compares to the Roadini.
On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 2:50 PM Matt Dreher <99m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Whoops, didn't see this before the reply went through.
>
> Yes, chainstays aren't the whole story. Front end geometry is a big deal
> for sure but in turns above
Whoops, didn't see this before the reply went through.
Yes, chainstays aren't the whole story. Front end geometry is a big deal
for sure but in turns above 20mph where the wheel is deflected less I think
the other elements of the geometry start to make themselves known. Not
scientific, just a
Fair, I was a bit rushed writing that. I think it's a sort of a modern
vernacular thing, using 'you' where one should really be using 'one.' This
should make it clearer.
*I don't buy the line that wheelbase doesn't affect handling significantly.
I have an 90s road bike with 41cm stays that's
Actually, the long wheelbases started earlier, at least as early the
"Mystery Bike". My Mystery Bike / Protopaloosa, is spookily similar in
geometry (minus the diagatube and tentacles) to my forthcoming custom.
Laing
On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 4:12:30 PM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!
Matt: First, this is a question, not a contradiction
I don't doubt that significantly lengthening chainstays affects ride, but
do a couple of cm in the stays affect steering as much as you say? I ask
because I've had several (6 -- I keep updating this number; at least 6 )
bikes with 44-45 cm
Well, I’ve been thinking. We’ve generated a LOT of good discussion here, and it
has been most informative. I’ve sifted through the posts again, and I think the
initial question remains.
Rivendell began lengthening wheelbases and chainstays with the Clems. I’d agree
that was an improvement. My
Hey Matt! I got confused in your middle paragraph. Too many pronouns that
seem reversed of what I thought you were saying for me to follow. Would you
mind clarifying please?
I've not heard anyone say wheelbase doesn't affect handling, significantly
or otherwise. The entire experience I've had
I finally concluded that the chainstays on my 61 Roadini are just a hair
too long at 46cm. I'm not opposed to longer chainstays, it's just that it
would be nice if there were a Rivendell option other than the Roadeo that
had slightly more traditional road geometry. If they had capped it at 44cm
"Worth mentioning that that sounds like my sport bike, a Boulder All Road 650b
true low trail skinny tubes and all. It's pretty short. Diving is how I
describe it going into turns. It also carves good. Not swoopy though. Hmm."
It also sounds like the Crust Lightning Bolt low-trail bike I had.
On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 2:42:47 AM UTC-6, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> I did ride Japanese bikes that were short and twitchy and dived instantly
> into turns and you could change lines 5 times whether you wanted to or not.
>
Worth mentioning that that sounds like my sport bike, a Boulder All
It's good to hear the Sam carves like that. I've only ridden a drop bar Riv
(Sam in 2011 or 12) around the shop a couple times. It was the first time I
rode a Riv and the handling was noticeably fantastic immediately.
I wonder what you'd get if you took a Sam, lengthened the top tube a lot,
Joe, I think you're right on about the stability and how it relates to
motorcycles. My dad's motorcycle skill books went really deep into
countersteering and pushing on the bars. I also think that because bikes
are smaller and the human is the motor, there is more to swoopiness than
the
What Paul describes as swoopy is probably the same thing I've described to
myself and maybe others as Rivendells (or, at at least the two I have) as
carving when cornering. And I expect it's because the rider is so well balanced
between front and back wheels with a Riv frame. Length is probably
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