RE: VXA drive (was DDS-3 vs DDS-4?)

[Steve Rothman]

Larry, thanks for this very useful list and the correction.

Here's my fantasy: this same list, on a tiny little web page, with 
links to the manufacturers and retailers involved. Wouldn't that be 
cool? If such a page existed, it would be worthy of being listed in 
the standard footer for Retro-Talk, imho.

At any rate, thanks again. -Steve


>I've added the two OnStream drives (ADR50 and SC30) in the internal 
>SCSI configurations (wide connector if available). I've listed the 
>pricing I can get to keep the comparison prices consistent.
>
>Steve Rothman, the Eliant 820 is an Exabyte drive utilizing an 8mm 
>helical scan tape. The VXA-1 media $/GB price is also actually a bit 
>higher than you calculated
>
>  Media
>  $/GB
>---
>Exabyte M2: 60GB,  12MB/s, $3777 ($80 media)  1.33
>Sony AIT-2: 50GB,   6MB/s, $3289 ($94 media)  1.88
>DLT 8000  : 40GB,   6MB/s, $3915 ($64 media)  1.60
>Sony AIT-1: 35GB,   3MB/s, $1913 ($88 media)  2.51
>VXA-1 : 33GB,   3MB/s,  $939 ($67 media)  2.03
>ADR50 : 25GB,   2MB/s,  $697 ($46 media)  1.84
>DDS-4 : 20GB,   3MB/s, $1072 ($33 media)  1.65
>Mammoth   : 20GB,   3MB/s, $2126 ($56 media)  2.80
>DLT 4000  : 20GB, 1.5MB/s, $1352 ($64 media)  3.20
>SC30  : 15GB,   2MB/S,  $438 ($41 media)  2.73
>Mammoth-LT: 14GB,   2MB/s, $1193 ($35 media)  2.50
>DDS-3 : 12GB,   1MB/s,  $777 ($16 media)  1.33
>Eliant 820:  7GB,   1MB/s, $1160 ( $8 media)  1.14
>DDS-2 :  4GB, .51MB/s,  $606 ( $7 media)  1.75
>
>-Native capacity listed, compressed capacity is typically 50% more
>-Sustained transfer rate listed
>-Cost is based on internal model with wide SCSI connector (if available)
>-VXA-1 tape drive is even cheaper through Ecrix July promo ($539)
>-Media listed is highest capacity format in single packs
>


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RE: VXA drive (was DDS-3 vs DDS-4?)

[Jaeger, Luke]

Can someone whip up a Filemaker app that will calculate the $/GB of any
given backup solution based on the cost of the mechanism and the number of
media required? Different backup systems make sense for different size
installations, obviously.



top of the world,

Luke Jaeger, Technology Coordinator
Disney Magazine Publishing
Northampton, Massachusetts
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Any opinions expressed in this message are my own and may not represent the
opinions of Disney Publishing, etc etc etc.

*

> --
> From: Larry Acosta Wong
> Reply To: retro-talk
> Sent: Thursday, August 3, 2000 4:36 AM
> To:   retro-talk
> Subject:      RE: VXA drive (was DDS-3 vs DDS-4?)
> 
> I've added the two OnStream drives (ADR50 and SC30) in the internal 
> SCSI configurations (wide connector if available). I've listed the 
> pricing I can get to keep the comparison prices consistent.
> 
> Steve Rothman, the Eliant 820 is an Exabyte drive utilizing an 8mm 
> helical scan tape. The VXA-1 media $/GB price is also actually a bit 
> higher than you calculated
> 
>Media
>$/GB
> ---
> Exabyte M2: 60GB,  12MB/s, $3777 ($80 media)  1.33
> Sony AIT-2: 50GB,   6MB/s, $3289 ($94 media)  1.88
> DLT 8000  : 40GB,   6MB/s, $3915 ($64 media)  1.60
> Sony AIT-1: 35GB,   3MB/s, $1913 ($88 media)  2.51
> VXA-1 : 33GB,   3MB/s,  $939 ($67 media)  2.03
> ADR50 : 25GB,   2MB/s,  $697 ($46 media)  1.84
> DDS-4 : 20GB,   3MB/s, $1072 ($33 media)  1.65
> Mammoth   : 20GB,   3MB/s, $2126 ($56 media)  2.80
> DLT 4000  : 20GB, 1.5MB/s, $1352 ($64 media)  3.20
> SC30  : 15GB,   2MB/S,  $438 ($41 media)  2.73
> Mammoth-LT: 14GB,   2MB/s, $1193 ($35 media)  2.50
> DDS-3 : 12GB,   1MB/s,  $777 ($16 media)  1.33
> Eliant 820:  7GB,   1MB/s, $1160 ( $8 media)  1.14
> DDS-2 :  4GB, .51MB/s,  $606 ( $7 media)  1.75
> 
> -Native capacity listed, compressed capacity is typically 50% more
> -Sustained transfer rate listed
> -Cost is based on internal model with wide SCSI connector (if available)
> -VXA-1 tape drive is even cheaper through Ecrix July promo ($539)
> -Media listed is highest capacity format in single packs
> 
> 


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RE: VXA drive (was DDS-3 vs DDS-4?)

[Larry Acosta Wong]

I've added the two OnStream drives (ADR50 and SC30) in the internal 
SCSI configurations (wide connector if available). I've listed the 
pricing I can get to keep the comparison prices consistent.

Steve Rothman, the Eliant 820 is an Exabyte drive utilizing an 8mm 
helical scan tape. The VXA-1 media $/GB price is also actually a bit 
higher than you calculated

   Media
   $/GB
---
Exabyte M2: 60GB,  12MB/s, $3777 ($80 media)  1.33
Sony AIT-2: 50GB,   6MB/s, $3289 ($94 media)  1.88
DLT 8000  : 40GB,   6MB/s, $3915 ($64 media)  1.60
Sony AIT-1: 35GB,   3MB/s, $1913 ($88 media)  2.51
VXA-1 : 33GB,   3MB/s,  $939 ($67 media)  2.03
ADR50 : 25GB,   2MB/s,  $697 ($46 media)  1.84
DDS-4 : 20GB,   3MB/s, $1072 ($33 media)  1.65
Mammoth   : 20GB,   3MB/s, $2126 ($56 media)  2.80
DLT 4000  : 20GB, 1.5MB/s, $1352 ($64 media)  3.20
SC30  : 15GB,   2MB/S,  $438 ($41 media)  2.73
Mammoth-LT: 14GB,   2MB/s, $1193 ($35 media)  2.50
DDS-3 : 12GB,   1MB/s,  $777 ($16 media)  1.33
Eliant 820:  7GB,   1MB/s, $1160 ( $8 media)  1.14
DDS-2 :  4GB, .51MB/s,  $606 ( $7 media)  1.75

-Native capacity listed, compressed capacity is typically 50% more
-Sustained transfer rate listed
-Cost is based on internal model with wide SCSI connector (if available)
-VXA-1 tape drive is even cheaper through Ecrix July promo ($539)
-Media listed is highest capacity format in single packs


Here's how I personally chose which tape drive to go with:

The way I figure, in order, the most important factors regarding the 
tape backup system are:

1. Reliability
2. Performance
3. Ease
4. Cost

Some of these items will be in different order for other people but I 
think that reliability is always the most important factor in a 
backup. (To stress my point, substitute the word "parachute" for 
"backup." I'm sure you'll always choose the most reliable parachute 
over any other.)

Reliability: The key feature with a backup is the ability to restore 
data and no tape system is 100% problem-free. But, only Ecrix makes 
these ridiculous durability claims and actually backs it up with 
extreme torture tests (boiling & freezing tapes). This is what really 
got my attention on the VXA drives.

Performance: You need to backup your users in the shortest amount of 
time possible. If it takes you more than one night to create a full 
backup, some users will go more than a day between backups thus 
reducing your backup system's effectiveness. Plus, the less you 
inconvenience your users, the less likely they'll keep "snoozing" 
Retrospect when it starts a backup. But with a fast tape drive you'll 
need a fast network and fast clients. Watch for the bottleneck.

Ease: higher capacity tapes reduce the amount of tape swapping that 
needs to happen during a backup or restore. If it takes 5 tapes to 
perform a full backup, then it'll take 5 nights before the full 
backup is done and the first incremental backup can take place 
meaning that some people will go 5 days between their full and 
incremental backups. Ideally, a full backup will fit on a single tape 
or you'll have an autoloader.

Cost: lower = good but when computing the cost per GB, you must 
factor in the cost of the tape drive as well. $7 media sounds really 
appealing but weigh in drive cost, performance and storage capacity. 
Below, I've computed actual cost per GB for my test scenario of 100GB 
total to backup, 3 storage sets.

   Tran#Tapes  Total   True
Model  (GB)   RatePrice Media  Req'd  Price   $/GB
---
VXA-1   333MB/s$539  $6712   $1,343   $3.39
DDS-3   121MB/s$777  $1627   $1,209   $3.73
DDS-24  .51MB/s$606   $775   $1,131   $3.77
SC30152MB/s$438  $4121   $1,299   $4.12
ADR50   252MB/s$697  $4612   $1,249   $4.16
VXA-1   333MB/s$939  $6712   $1,743   $4.40
Eliant 820   71MB/s  $1,160   $845   $1,520   $4.83
DDS-4   203MB/s  $1,072  $3315   $1,567   $5.22
Mammoth-LT  142MB/s  $1,193  $3524   $2,033   $6.05
DLT 400020  1.5MB/s  $1,352  $6415   $2,312   $7.71
Sony AIT-1  353MB/s  $1,913  $88 9   $2,705   $8.59
Mammoth 203MB/s  $2,126  $5615   $2,966   $9.89
Exabyte M2  60   12MB/s  $3,777  $80 6   $4,257  $11.83
DLT 8000406MB/s  $3,915  $64 9   $4,491  $12.48
Sony AIT-2  506MB/s  $3,289  $94 6   $3,853  $12.84

For this comparison, I've included the VXA-1 at the promotional price 
since it's been extended through Aug and is available to everyone. 
The total cost of DDS-3 is actually $134 cheaper than the VXA-1 but 
the cost/GB is higher, it requires 27 tapes total (9 tapes per 
storage set) and its transfer rate is considerably slower.

So, it's probably fairly obvious th

RE: VXA drive (was DDS-3 vs DDS-4?)

[Douglas B. McKay]

May I add one other drive to this list?  What does anyone here think of this
drive from OnStream (http://www.onstream.com)?  Other than having a few
(three in one machine), I have no connection to OnStream.  They seem to work
well, I just hadn't seen much mention here in the time I've been lurking...

   ...Doug
OnStream
ADR50 : 25GB,   2MB/s,  $700 ($50 media)

Exabyte M2: 60GB,  12MB/s, $3777 ($80 media)
Sony AIT-2: 50GB,   6MB/s, $3289 ($94 media)
DLT 8000  : 40GB,   6MB/s, $3915 ($64 media)
Sony AIT-1: 35GB,   3MB/s, $1913 ($88 media)
VXA-1 : 33GB,   3MB/s,  $939 ($67 media)
DDS-4 : 20GB,   3MB/s, $1072 ($33 media)
Mammoth   : 20GB,   3MB/s, $2126 ($56 media)
DLT 4000  : 20GB, 1.5MB/s, $1352 ($64 media)
Mammoth-LT: 14GB,   2MB/s, $1193 ($35 media)
DDS-3 : 12GB,   1MB/s,  $777 ($16 media)
Eliant 820:  7GB,   1MB/s, $1160 ( $8 media)
DDS-2 :  4GB, .51MB/s,  $606 ( $7 media)

-Native capacity listed, compressed capacity is typically 50% more
-Sustained transfer rate listed
-Cost is based on internal model with wide SCSI connector (if available)

-VXA-1 tape drive is even cheaper through Ecrix July promo ($539)
-Media listed is highest capacity format in single packs
---




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OT and rambling--Re: VXA drive (was DDS-3 vs DDS-4?)

[Jon Gardner]

on 8/2/2000 1:10 PM, Steve Rothman at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

> But let's talk about tape prices. It looks to me like the VXA 33/66
> cartridge costs about $75 from Ecrix. It's not hard to find a DDS-3
> 12/24 cartridge for $18. So it looks like on a pure $/GB basis, VXA
> media costs about 50% more than DDS-3 ($2.27/GB for VXA vs $1.50/GB
> for DDS-3).

But pure media cost is not a valid comparison...you also need to include
reliability, reusability, etc. and the "hassle factor" involved in swapping
tapes.

I don't know about you, but the DDS tapes just look kinda wimpy up against
the VXA tapes. I have to think that the VXA tapes are stouter, not to
mention that I'd love to be on the "VXA Extreme Testing" team (reminds me of
the Glock handgun demos, where they'd dunk a brand new pistol into a bucket
of mud/slime/liquid Nitrogen, pull it out, and fire a few rounds...). Not
sure about the reusability, to be honest...anyone from VXA care to comment
on how many times we can overwrite a tape?

The tape swap hassle factor is a biggie for me. What if nobody's around to
put in the second or third tape? Incomplete backup. What if you don't want
to have to swap tapes all week? Our typical weekly backups, including a full
backup followed by incrementals for the rest of the week, would require two
full DDS-3 tapes, and probably part of a third. Here's a little peek into my
psyche: I hate swapping tapes, I hate carrying tapes from building to
building for offsite backups, I hate it. I find a different way. I am an
engineer; I am lazy. My favorite animal is the sloth.

Plus, the VXA drive looks cooler than the DDS. Hey, I'm an artist too.

That's...let's see, math in the head, ouch...$54 per backup set for wimpy
DDS-3 tapes with two swaps and a boring drive case, or $75 for "extreme
tested" VXA tapes with no swaps and a really cool drive case. I'll gladly
pay the extra $21 per week. Nobody has to remember to swap tapes, I don't
lose backup data, I don't have to worry about it, and everybody likes the
way it looks. We run a 13-week rotation, so I'm paying a grand total
of...big ouch, more math in the head...$273 more for VXA tapes than I would
for DDS-3 tapes.

Obviously, this is a personal call that depends on your particular needs,
but it's absolutely worth it to me.

<><
Jon L. Gardner '89, Computer Systems Manager 
Texas A&M University Dept. of Food Services 
Tel 979.458.1839 * Fax 979.845.2157 * Hip 979.229.4323
PGP public key available at 





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RE: VXA drive (was DDS-3 vs DDS-4?)

[Steve Rothman]

I added cost/GB numbers to the end of this nice chart, hope my math is ok.

It looks like the media cost of VXA is about in the middle -- not 
great, not a bargain.

DDS-3, which happens to be the format I am comparing to VXA, is tied 
to be the second cheapest - the only format cheaper is the only one 
on the list I never heard of...

And remember, the cost/GB is basically a "best case" figure, if you 
don't always use the full capacity of a tape. Large capacity is very 
convenient, but smaller capacity is often a much better deal.

For many scenarios the media price is insignificant, there are a ton 
of different considerations when picking out a backup system. But if 
anyone is cost conscious, and will be using a lot of media, they 
should really do some calculations before picking a system.

-Steve


>Larry Acosta Wong posted this very nice chart to this list about two weeks
>ago, and I hope he won't mind me reposting it here again. His VXA media cost
>is from his reseller, who is selling for less than we do on our website.
>--geoff
>   MEDIA
>---PRICE/GB
>Exabyte M2: 60GB,  12MB/s, $3777 ($80 media)$1.33
>Sony AIT-2: 50GB,   6MB/s, $3289 ($94 media) 1.88
>DLT 8000  : 40GB,   6MB/s, $3915 ($64 media) 1.60
>Sony AIT-1: 35GB,   3MB/s, $1913 ($88 media) 2.51
>VXA-1 : 33GB,   3MB/s,  $939 ($67 media) 1.91
>DDS-4 : 20GB,   3MB/s, $1072 ($33 media) 1.65
>Mammoth   : 20GB,   3MB/s, $2126 ($56 media) 2.80
>DLT 4000  : 20GB, 1.5MB/s, $1352 ($64 media) 3.20
>Mammoth-LT: 14GB,   2MB/s, $1193 ($35 media) 2.50
>DDS-3 : 12GB,   1MB/s,  $777 ($16 media) 1.33
>Eliant 820:  7GB,   1MB/s, $1160 ( $8 media) 1.14
>DDS-2 :  4GB, .51MB/s,  $606 ( $7 media) 1.75
>
>-Native capacity listed, compressed capacity is typically 50% more
>-Sustained transfer rate listed
>-Cost is based on internal model with wide SCSI connector (if available)
>
>-VXA-1 tape drive is even cheaper through Ecrix July promo ($539)
>-Media listed is highest capacity format in single packs
>---
>


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RE: VXA drive (was DDS-3 vs DDS-4?)

[Geoff Rainville]

Larry Acosta Wong posted this very nice chart to this list about two weeks
ago, and I hope he won't mind me reposting it here again. His VXA media cost
is from his reseller, who is selling for less than we do on our website.
--geoff

---
Exabyte M2: 60GB,  12MB/s, $3777 ($80 media)
Sony AIT-2: 50GB,   6MB/s, $3289 ($94 media)
DLT 8000  : 40GB,   6MB/s, $3915 ($64 media)
Sony AIT-1: 35GB,   3MB/s, $1913 ($88 media)
VXA-1 : 33GB,   3MB/s,  $939 ($67 media)
DDS-4 : 20GB,   3MB/s, $1072 ($33 media)
Mammoth   : 20GB,   3MB/s, $2126 ($56 media)
DLT 4000  : 20GB, 1.5MB/s, $1352 ($64 media)
Mammoth-LT: 14GB,   2MB/s, $1193 ($35 media)
DDS-3 : 12GB,   1MB/s,  $777 ($16 media)
Eliant 820:  7GB,   1MB/s, $1160 ( $8 media)
DDS-2 :  4GB, .51MB/s,  $606 ( $7 media)

-Native capacity listed, compressed capacity is typically 50% more
-Sustained transfer rate listed
-Cost is based on internal model with wide SCSI connector (if available)

-VXA-1 tape drive is even cheaper through Ecrix July promo ($539)
-Media listed is highest capacity format in single packs
---



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf
Of Steve Rothman
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 12:11 PM
To: retro-talk
Subject: RE: VXA drive (was DDS-3 vs DDS-4?)



>Steve: You're killing me here. A two-year tape purchase in advance, but we
>won't get the sale?

Now that you're mentioning tape...

Your promotional drive prices are very nice. The "External Retrospect
Bundle" for $750 is slightly better than the LaCie DDS-3 + Retro
avail from MacWarehouse for $800.

But let's talk about tape prices. It looks to me like the VXA 33/66
cartridge costs about $75 from Ecrix. It's not hard to find a DDS-3
12/24 cartridge for $18. So it looks like on a pure $/GB basis, VXA
media costs about 50% more than DDS-3 ($2.27/GB for VXA vs $1.50/GB
for DDS-3).

And that ain't all. In the real world, my backup set is going to be
some arbitrary size, so in many cases the price differential gets
even worse. In my particular case, my backup set is about 25-30 GB
(native). So that ranges from 2 to 3 DDS3 carts ($18 - $54) or 1 VXA
cart ($75).

And I want to purchase about 10 "sets" worth of media, because I do
both "rotating" and also permanent archiving. It looks to me like
with DDS3 I can probably get started with about 25 or 30 tapes
($450-540), but with VXA media I'd need at least 10 tapes ($750). So
I would be paying two or three hundred dollars extra for VXA media.

And it could get worse - what if my requirements gradually grow to 35
or 40GB native per set? I believe getting a few extra DDS3 carts a
year or two down the road is going to be cheap and easy. We have no
idea what the availability or price will be for VXA in a year or two.

(I haven't even got into the prices for cleaning cartridges, but it
appears to me that the VXA cleaning cartridges are far more expensive
than DDS-3, but then I don't know how often either of them needs to
be used.)

Listen, I'm not at all trying to slam Ecrix or VXA. I'm very hopeful
that the technology works out and becomes a big player in the market,
with more vendor support, etc. For that matter, if I was to buy a
small system now for my home computer I would strongly consider your
product, because for a home scenario all I would need is the drive
and a couple tapes.

As far as my self-professed corporate clone attitude, I'd consider
taking a chance at the office on a new single-source backup product
IF it looked WAY better than the competition AND was WAY cheaper. In
many ways, VXA *does* look a little better to me than DDS-3 - BUT,
for my particular requirements, when you include the media, it is
more expensive, not at all cheaper. 

Am I risk averse?  Hell, yeah -- we are talking BACKUP here, after
all, what could be a more risk-averse topic?  -Steve



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RE: VXA drive (was DDS-3 vs DDS-4?)

[Geoff Rainville]

I'll happily comment, but non-specifically, unfortunately.

The basic business plan for Ecrix absolutely calls for widening the market
with OEM and licensed deals. Where are we with that? I'm honestly not sure
(I do web promotions and sales...which reminds me of our
promotion...sorry..force of habit).

I'm hearing good things in the hallways, lots of enthusiasm and optimism,
lots of conversations, but just a few press releases so far. We've done
deals so far with TapeLabs, Qualstar, and Quadratec, plus a few that didn't
get publicly announced.

There's a start-up catch twenty-two in effect here: it's much easier to work
with the IBM's, etc., once you have a large market share, but it's tough to
get market share unless you're dealing with the IBM's...as Steve pointed out
very precisely.

But that said, the fact that Kelly and Juan have done this before
successfully, and the fact that they hired a pretty fantastic team to help
them do it again bodes very well.


--Geoff Rainville, Ecrix.




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf
Of Gowan Fenley
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 10:59 AM
To: retro-talk
Subject: RE: VXA drive (was DDS-3 vs DDS-4?)


Steve said:

...In my particular case, I need to specify everything I need for a two year
time span (which in
my case means two drives plus all tapes and cleaning tapes, etc.) on a
single purchase order.

... I cannot tolerate the risk that my VXA drives may go bad a year from now
and that no one besides Ecrix could fix/replace them. ...will have an angry
boss if my backup strategy fails  because I picked a brand-new,
single-source mechanism/media vendor that my boss never
heard of...

Yes, I see your point here. Of course any drive vendor can go out of
business, but with a non-proprietary standard you could replace
(expensively) the entire unit. This is a good question to ask Ecrix - what
are their plans for licensing or otherwise expanding the VXA format to widen
the market?

Perhaps Mr. Rainville would care to comment?

-gf




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RE: VXA drive (was DDS-3 vs DDS-4?)

[Steve Rothman]

>Steve: You're killing me here. A two-year tape purchase in advance, but we
>won't get the sale?

Now that you're mentioning tape...

Your promotional drive prices are very nice. The "External Retrospect 
Bundle" for $750 is slightly better than the LaCie DDS-3 + Retro 
avail from MacWarehouse for $800.

But let's talk about tape prices. It looks to me like the VXA 33/66 
cartridge costs about $75 from Ecrix. It's not hard to find a DDS-3 
12/24 cartridge for $18. So it looks like on a pure $/GB basis, VXA 
media costs about 50% more than DDS-3 ($2.27/GB for VXA vs $1.50/GB 
for DDS-3).

And that ain't all. In the real world, my backup set is going to be 
some arbitrary size, so in many cases the price differential gets 
even worse. In my particular case, my backup set is about 25-30 GB 
(native). So that ranges from 2 to 3 DDS3 carts ($18 - $54) or 1 VXA 
cart ($75).

And I want to purchase about 10 "sets" worth of media, because I do 
both "rotating" and also permanent archiving. It looks to me like 
with DDS3 I can probably get started with about 25 or 30 tapes 
($450-540), but with VXA media I'd need at least 10 tapes ($750). So 
I would be paying two or three hundred dollars extra for VXA media.

And it could get worse - what if my requirements gradually grow to 35 
or 40GB native per set? I believe getting a few extra DDS3 carts a 
year or two down the road is going to be cheap and easy. We have no 
idea what the availability or price will be for VXA in a year or two.

(I haven't even got into the prices for cleaning cartridges, but it 
appears to me that the VXA cleaning cartridges are far more expensive 
than DDS-3, but then I don't know how often either of them needs to 
be used.)

Listen, I'm not at all trying to slam Ecrix or VXA. I'm very hopeful 
that the technology works out and becomes a big player in the market, 
with more vendor support, etc. For that matter, if I was to buy a 
small system now for my home computer I would strongly consider your 
product, because for a home scenario all I would need is the drive 
and a couple tapes.

As far as my self-professed corporate clone attitude, I'd consider 
taking a chance at the office on a new single-source backup product 
IF it looked WAY better than the competition AND was WAY cheaper. In 
many ways, VXA *does* look a little better to me than DDS-3 - BUT, 
for my particular requirements, when you include the media, it is 
more expensive, not at all cheaper. 

Am I risk averse?  Hell, yeah -- we are talking BACKUP here, after 
all, what could be a more risk-averse topic?  -Steve



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RE: VXA drive (was DDS-3 vs DDS-4?)

[Gowan Fenley]

Steve said:

...In my particular case, I need to specify everything I need for a two year
time span (which in
my case means two drives plus all tapes and cleaning tapes, etc.) on a
single purchase order.

... I cannot tolerate the risk that my VXA drives may go bad a year from now
and that no one besides Ecrix could fix/replace them. ...will have an angry
boss if my backup strategy fails  because I picked a brand-new,
single-source mechanism/media vendor that my boss never
heard of...

Yes, I see your point here. Of course any drive vendor can go out of
business, but with a non-proprietary standard you could replace
(expensively) the entire unit. This is a good question to ask Ecrix - what
are their plans for licensing or otherwise expanding the VXA format to widen
the market?

Perhaps Mr. Rainville would care to comment?

-gf




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RE: VXA drive (was DDS-3 vs DDS-4?)

[Geoff Rainville]

Steve: You're killing me here. A two-year tape purchase in advance, but we
won't get the sale?

It used to be said that "no one got fired for buying IBM" but that's not
true anymore...lots of new companies with smarter, better technologies took
some market share from them.

So here we are with a better technology, a better price point, a product you
like, but no sale: too risky, and you're going to go with the "established"
company.

That's one of those close-ended arguments that's tough to debate. You
already know that Ecrix was started by long-time pro's in this market, and
that the team here has gone from start-up to established business before.
And we intend to do it again. You already know that there's a possibility of
some of these more established companies abandoning tape altogether...sure
the company will still be around, but who knows what tape-related service
you'll get in two years.

Dang, it's -tough- to build and sell a better moustrap. Can we smack your
boss around a bit? Sorry, just joshing with you. DDS is obviously worthy
competition and a fine product. We'll talk to you in two years.

Marketing pitch: For those of you not "corporate clones" we're doing the
August promotion right now, at www.vxa.com/eval:
Internal Kit $489, External Kit $649, Internal Retrospect Bundle $589,
External Retrospect Bundle $749


Geoff Rainville
Web Promotions
Ecrix Corporation
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
303-245-9669




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf
Of Steve Rothman
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 9:18 AM
To: retro-talk
Subject: Re: VXA drive (was DDS-3 vs DDS-4?)


>
>> (The only single-tape solution
>> in my price range is VXA, which sounds very nice, but there is NO WAY
>> I will go with a new, single-vendor solution...)
>
>You really have to look at risk vs. cost in this case. You can get into a
>VXA drive with a few tapes for $600-$700 and have an immediate 33-66Gb
>single-tape backup capacity. You'll pay about twice that much for a DDS
>equivalent, and more for anything else.

That would be great in many situations.  In my particular case, I
need to specify everything I need for a two year time span (which in
my case means two drives plus all tapes and cleaning tapes, etc.) on
a single purchase order.

It looks to me, for my particular requirements, including the two
drives, required tapes, etc. that VXA is about halfway between DDS-2
and DDS-4 in price. If I was judging this purely on price & specs,
I'd go for the VXA, because of the promised reliability and only
needing a single tape/backup.

But in my particular situation, I cannot tolerate the risk that my
VXA drives may go bad a year from now and that no one besides Ecrix
could fix/replace them.  How can I predict the responsiveness of the
Ecrix repair department over the years to come? Also, when my two
year supply of tapes is up, in mid-2002, will VXA tapes be readily
accessible and reasonably priced? Perhaps, perhaps not...

I know, for a fact, that there will be multiple sources to
repair/replace DDS-3 drives over the next 2 - 3 year, and that DDS-3
media will be available from multiple vendors over the next 2 - 3
years.

If I was looking basically 6 months ahead, or more of a gambler, I
would probably buy Ecrix anyway. It sounds like a great drive and I
wish them luck!

But I'm not a gambler, I'm a corporate clone that will have an angry
boss if my backup strategy fails in a year or so because I picked a
brand-new, single-source mechanism/media vendor that my boss never
heard of...

-Steve



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RE: VXA drive (was DDS-3 vs DDS-4?)

[Wade Masshardt]

At 15:37 +0200 8/2/00, Xavier HUMBERT - Labo Informatique wrote:
>Le 02/08/2000 a 09:22 -0400 , Gowan Fenley ecrivait :
>
>>  Hey, you can always shoot for the lowest common denominator and invest in
>>  Travan!
>
>And loose your data...
>

We use a Travan system where I work and we are planning onupgrading 
to DDS-4, but I've been taking a look at the VXA options since 
reading about it on this list. My big question is: does VXA suffer 
from the same "stretching tape" problem that Travan has, or is it 
like DAT, which doesn't have that problem?

 From a price standpoint, it looks like the VXA is the winner, but 
reliability is paramount in a backup solution.

-- 
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|Wade Masshardt| The Wisconsin Alumni Association |
|   Tech Support Coordinator   | 1-888-WIS-ALUM  (1-888-947-2586) |
| 608-265-8766 |    |
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Re: VXA drive (was DDS-3 vs DDS-4?)

[Steve Rothman]

>
>> (The only single-tape solution
>> in my price range is VXA, which sounds very nice, but there is NO WAY
>> I will go with a new, single-vendor solution...)
>
>You really have to look at risk vs. cost in this case. You can get into a
>VXA drive with a few tapes for $600-$700 and have an immediate 33-66Gb
>single-tape backup capacity. You'll pay about twice that much for a DDS
>equivalent, and more for anything else.

That would be great in many situations.  In my particular case, I 
need to specify everything I need for a two year time span (which in 
my case means two drives plus all tapes and cleaning tapes, etc.) on 
a single purchase order.

It looks to me, for my particular requirements, including the two 
drives, required tapes, etc. that VXA is about halfway between DDS-2 
and DDS-4 in price. If I was judging this purely on price & specs, 
I'd go for the VXA, because of the promised reliability and only 
needing a single tape/backup.

But in my particular situation, I cannot tolerate the risk that my 
VXA drives may go bad a year from now and that no one besides Ecrix 
could fix/replace them.  How can I predict the responsiveness of the 
Ecrix repair department over the years to come? Also, when my two 
year supply of tapes is up, in mid-2002, will VXA tapes be readily 
accessible and reasonably priced? Perhaps, perhaps not...

I know, for a fact, that there will be multiple sources to 
repair/replace DDS-3 drives over the next 2 - 3 year, and that DDS-3 
media will be available from multiple vendors over the next 2 - 3 
years.

If I was looking basically 6 months ahead, or more of a gambler, I 
would probably buy Ecrix anyway. It sounds like a great drive and I 
wish them luck!

But I'm not a gambler, I'm a corporate clone that will have an angry 
boss if my backup strategy fails in a year or so because I picked a 
brand-new, single-source mechanism/media vendor that my boss never 
heard of...

-Steve



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Re: VXA drive (was DDS-3 vs DDS-4?)

[Glenn L. Austin]

on 8/2/00 6:22 AM, Gowan Fenley at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Of course, if you want to look at single vendor proprietary platforms, you
> don't have to look farther than Apple

...or Microsoft, or Intel, or AMD.

Sorry, had to get those "digs" in there somewhere ;-).  Apple's not the only
"proprietary platform" out there, and since I have to work on both, it's
nice to remember that Microsoft is just as proprietary as Apple, its just
more prevalent.

-- 
Glenn L. Austin
Computer Wizard and Race Car Driver
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>




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RE: VXA drive (was DDS-3 vs DDS-4?)

[Gowan Fenley]

Oh yes - also compare after store is enabled.

-gf



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RE: VXA drive (was DDS-3 vs DDS-4?)

[Gowan Fenley]

Mark said:
Gowan, what type of throughputs are you getting and what spec machine do
you use as a server?

Server is a Dell Poweredge 1300 with a single Pentium 3/450 and 256Mb RAM.
Throughput ranges from 171Mb/sec on local volumes down to 2Mb/sec on a fully
throttled (20% cpu time) remote mail server via a slow (192Kbs) WAN link.
Typical throughput on a 100BT switched LAN is 55-110Mb/min for workstations
in the 200-500Mhz range. Hardware compression turned on, version is
Retrospect 5.11.

-gf




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RE: VXA drive (was DDS-3 vs DDS-4?)

[Xavier HUMBERT - Labo Informatique]

Le 02/08/2000 a 09:22 -0400 , Gowan Fenley ecrivait :

> Hey, you can always shoot for the lowest common denominator and invest in
> Travan!

And loose your data...

-- 
Xavier HUMBERT  -  Systemes et Reseaux | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
INJEP  | [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: VXA drive (was DDS-3 vs DDS-4?)

[Gowan Fenley]

Andrew said:

Hey Gowan...wanna buy a few hundred Syquest 200s? How about 5.25" MO's?
:)


Yuck yuck. Yep, we've scrapped plenty of SyQuests too. A perfect example to
prove my point! The most widely accepted industry standard at one time, yet
driven out of business by Iomega's product. Could it be that DDS is to
Syquest as VXA is to Zip

Of course, if you want to look at single vendor proprietary platforms, you
don't have to look farther than Apple

Hey, you can always shoot for the lowest common denominator and invest in
Travan!

-gf




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Re: VXA drive (was DDS-3 vs DDS-4?)

[andrew]

Hey Gowan...wanna buy a few hundred Syquest 200s? How about 5.25" MO's?
:)

- Original Message -
From: "Gowan Fenley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "retro-talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 7:28 AM
Subject: VXA drive (was DDS-3 vs DDS-4?)


> Steve said:
>
> > My previous experience with DDS-2 was very unhappy -- too much
> maintenance, too much downtime, too many ever-changing recommendations
> about what brand of media to use, etc.
>
> >...(The only single-tape solution in my price range is VXA, which sounds
> very nice, but there is NO WAY I will go with a new, single-vendor
> solution...)
>
> Too bad you are dead set against the VXA, since it is an excellent
> solution for the problems you mention above. With the discounted eval
> offer Ecrix is offering, you really can't get a better value for the
> money right now. Yes, you are limited to the manufacturer (currently) for
> media, but most of us buy tapes infrequently and well in advance anyway,
> plus this certainly address the problem of choosing media brands...
>
> We have been putting a VXA drive through the ringer for several weeks
> now, and I have been very impressed with the performance and robust
> construction of the drive. The packet technology pioneered by VXA not
> only is much more reliable than "regular" tape storage protocols, but
> represents a much-needed advancement in what has been stagnant technology
> for many years.
>
> Trying something new involves a certain amount of risk, but did that stop
> you from buying an iMac?
>
> Just my opinion - no commercial interest in Ecrix, etc.
>
> -gf
>
>
>
>
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VXA drive (was DDS-3 vs DDS-4?)

[Gowan Fenley]

Steve said:

> My previous experience with DDS-2 was very unhappy -- too much 
maintenance, too much downtime, too many ever-changing recommendations 
about what brand of media to use, etc.

>...(The only single-tape solution in my price range is VXA, which sounds 
very nice, but there is NO WAY I will go with a new, single-vendor 
solution...)

Too bad you are dead set against the VXA, since it is an excellent 
solution for the problems you mention above. With the discounted eval 
offer Ecrix is offering, you really can't get a better value for the 
money right now. Yes, you are limited to the manufacturer (currently) for 
media, but most of us buy tapes infrequently and well in advance anyway, 
plus this certainly address the problem of choosing media brands...

We have been putting a VXA drive through the ringer for several weeks 
now, and I have been very impressed with the performance and robust 
construction of the drive. The packet technology pioneered by VXA not 
only is much more reliable than "regular" tape storage protocols, but 
represents a much-needed advancement in what has been stagnant technology 
for many years.

Trying something new involves a certain amount of risk, but did that stop 
you from buying an iMac?

Just my opinion - no commercial interest in Ecrix, etc.

-gf




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