22, 2017 5:45 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Do Hydrant Butts have a K Factor?
Or just use the formula in NFPA 291- Standard for Hydrant Marking and flow
tests or something like that...
Q = 29.83*d^2*Cd*P^0.5
d = hydrant outlet diameter in inches
C = the outlet
I think we’ve again hit the saturation point on a topic. I’m all for extensive
discussions but when something is such an obscure nuance that I suspect holds
little interest to the majority of the whole group, I’m include to limit the
run (or as they say in Texas - shoot it in the head).
nklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler.
> org] *On Behalf Of *Brad Casterline
> *Sent:* Friday, February 24, 2017 4:19 AM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Subject:* Re: Do Hydrant Butts have a K Factor?
>
>
>
> Just one more thing if the Forum wil
Uhh … maybe it’s a 4” port?
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On
Behalf Of Brad Casterline
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2017 4:19 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Do Hydrant Butts have a K Factor?
Just one more thing
nts. Here are the values:
>> 2 3/8" 134
>> 2 1/2" 149
>> 2 5/8" 164
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 6:48 PM, John Denhardt <
>> jdenha...@stricklandfire.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Travis - well said
>>>
>>>
is info from this very forum but I have noted that FM
> global used to have k-factors for hydrants. Here are the values:
> 2 3/8" 134
> 2 1/2" 149
> 2 5/8" 164
>
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 6:48 PM, John Denhardt <
> jdenha...@stricklandfire.com> wrote:
>
well said
>
> Brad - who really cares if hydrants have a K factor? I know I don't.
>
> John August Denhardt, P.E.
> Strickland Fire Protection
>
> On Feb 22, 2017, at 8:45 PM, Travis Mack, SET <tm...@mfpdesign.com> wrote:
>
> Or just use the formula in NFPA 291- Standa
Travis - well said
Brad - who really cares if hydrants have a K factor? I know I don't.
John August Denhardt, P.E.
Strickland Fire Protection
On Feb 22, 2017, at 8:45 PM, Travis Mack, SET
<tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com>> wrote:
Or just use the formula in NFPA 2
Or just use the formula in NFPA 291- Standard for Hydrant Marking and
flow tests or something like that...
Q = 29.83*d^2*Cd*P^0.5
d = hydrant outlet diameter in inches
C = the outlet coefficient (0.7, 0.8 or 0.9)
P = Pitot pressure that is measured
Not everything has to be extremely
Say it's a 2.5" C=.9.
I've tried to work this out a couple different ways:
1) a kind of long drawn out way, call it 'brad's way', and I get ~168.
2) a way i call the 'Bill Brooks back of napkin' way based on a few words
he posted here a few years ago-- lightening fast, and i'll be damned if i
I was trying to use a smaller K factor for the sprinklers which are near to the
pump in order to adjust the flow rate and to choose a smaller water tank! but
now I understand that calculating the amount of required water is depended on
fire-flow and the system model. I am not that much familiar
can't do it..
Dwight
From: rfletc...@aerofire.com rfletc...@aerofire.com
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 9:31 AM
Subject: RE: Different K factor in each floor practical?
Ron,
Agreed that if you add the fire flow
: Thursday, August 22, 2013 9:31 AM
Subject: RE: Different K factor in each floor practical?
Ron,
Agreed that if you add the fire flow to the sprinkler demand you will have
plenty of water. Isn't the sprinkler demand separate and not additive?
Similar to standpipe and sprinkler demands. I do a lot
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron
Greenman
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 10:32 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Different K factor in each floor practical?
And the required fire flow is always the AHJs call.
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013
: RE: Different K factor in each floor practical?
Yeah we have one AHJ out here that says we have to add the sprinkler to the
fire flow because that is the way it always was. He also allows only a 25%
reduction for the same reason. Must be good to be king.
Ron F
-Original Message-
From
2013
Subject: Re: Different K factor in each floor practical?
Reza, first you have to provide for fire flow per IFC. That is a whole lot
of water. Typically you can reduce basic fire flow by 75% if you have
sprinklers. That gives you an idea of how much fire flow can be. The AHJ is
who determines what
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron
Greenman
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 7:35 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Different K factor in each floor practical
@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Different K factor in each floor practical?
Ron,
Agreed that if you add the fire flow to the sprinkler demand you will have
plenty of water. Isn't the sprinkler demand separate and not additive? Similar
to standpipe and sprinkler demands. I do a lot fire flow
...@gmail.com
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: Different K factor in each floor practical?
Reza,
If you have a demand of 0.1 over 1500 sqft the least number of heads you
could possibly have, if you are able to maximize the layout
@lists.firesprinkler.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: Different K factor in each floor practical?
Reza,
If you have a demand of 0.1 over 1500 sqft the least number of heads you
could possibly have, if you are able to maximize the layout (we're talking
standard spray
of water tank and pump. I was
thinking about adjusting the flow rate of the sprinklers that are near to fire
pump which have high flow rate around 40Gpm that I don't really need, I need
only 20GPM. So I was thinking about below options:
1- Using smaller K factor sprinklers at 1st, 2nd and 3rd floors
Reza, if your minimum density/area is .1/1500 and you end up with a demand
less than 150 GPM you have done something wrong, no matter what K-Factor you
use!
-Original Message-
From: Reza Esmaeili [mailto:rezaesmaeili...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 7:39 AM
To: sprinklerforum
Casterline bcasterl...@fsc-inc.comwrote:
Reza, if your minimum density/area is .1/1500 and you end up with a demand
less than 150 GPM you have done something wrong, no matter what K-Factor
you
use!
-Original Message-
From: Reza Esmaeili [mailto:rezaesmaeili...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: Different K factor in each floor practical?
remember that pressure is your friend. Not having enough pressure is
usually the problem.
On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 1:09 PM, Eric Tysinger er...@waynefire.com
wrote:
Also to add, given a 6
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: Different K factor in each floor practical?
remember that pressure is your friend. Not having enough pressure is
usually the problem.
On Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 1:09 PM, Eric Tysinger er...@waynefire.com wrote
From: Ron Greenman rongreen...@gmail.com
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: Different K factor in each floor practical?
remember that pressure is your friend. Not having enough pressure is
usually the problem.
On Tue, Aug 13, 2013
Ron, isn't the duration 30 minutes?
-Original Message-
From: Brad Casterline [mailto:bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 10:05 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Different K factor in each floor practical?
AND... I was thinking about
]
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2013 10:05 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Different K factor in each floor practical?
AND... I was thinking about this last night and was struck by something
that
felt like the late, great George Church was trying post-- think about
considered? Is it common to
use different K factor sprinklers in each floor? like the below:
Lets say the pump is 30Gpm at 70Psi and consider the below:
- Pressure at 1st floor= 60 psi I choose a sprinkler with K=2.8 to have
Q=21.7Gpm
- Pressure at 2nd floor= 50 psi I choose a sprinkler with K
Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Reza
Esmaeili
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 3:34 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Different K factor in each floor practical?
Hi!
For a 6 floor
...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Eric
Tysinger
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2013 4:06 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Different K factor in each floor practical?
Assuming that you do not exceed the psi rating of the components (typically
175psi) on any given floor, why worry
@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Different K factor in each floor practical?
Assuming that you do not exceed the psi rating of the components
(typically 175psi) on any given floor, why worry about the pressure at each
floor? If you do exceed 175psi, the use of a pressure reducing valve at the
ground
To restate John's comment a little more bluntly, the requirement to adjust the
K-factor for antifreeze solutions was deleted the following edition because it
created an insignificant difference considering the approximate nature of our
overall methodology and especially the assigned average
@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: adjusting the K-Factor with our bare hands
To restate John's comment a little more bluntly, the requirement to adjust the
K-factor for antifreeze solutions was deleted the following edition because it
created an insignificant difference considering the approximate nature of our
: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:
sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland
Huggins
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 11:03 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: adjusting the K-Factor with our bare hands
To restate John's comment
Thanks Roland, John again, and Ron again.
This post is for adjusting the K-Factor for fluid properties other than
water at ~40F, 62.4 lb/ft3, not for 'pure' water flowing through an area
that varies a couple hundredths of a square foot. See 13-2007, A.22.4.4.5.1,
which, if deleted in later
Casterline
bcasterl...@fsc-inc.comwrote:
Thanks Roland, John again, and Ron again.
This post is for adjusting the K-Factor for fluid properties other than
water at ~40F, 62.4 lb/ft3, not for 'pure' water flowing through an area
that varies a couple hundredths of a square foot. See 13-2007
a more direct link to it?
-Original Message-
From: IPA [mailto:nsfdc...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 1:32 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: adjusting the K-Factor with our bare hands
Aren't Darcy calcs a bit counterintuitive? We want to make sure
-Original Message-
From: Brad Casterline [mailto:bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com]
Never mind Roland, dumb question, of course you did.
The main reason I wanted to check it out was to see how you adjusted the
K-Factor. Then I saw in 13-2010 the formula for doing this. In my original
post I got
From NFPA 13-2007, 22.4.4.5.1, we are required to, among other things,
adjust the K-Factor.
Using the Hazen-Williams friction formula, 62.4 lb/ft3 / 144 in2 = .433
lb/in2/ft(h).
If we have an AF solution at 65.5 lb/ft3, / 144 = .455 lb/in2/ft(h).
If K=5.6, and we assume P=7 PSI.:
7/.433
bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com wrote:
From NFPA 13-2007, 22.4.4.5.1, we are required to, among other things,
adjust the K-Factor.
Using the Hazen-Williams friction formula, 62.4 lb/ft3 / 144 in2 = .433
lb/in2/ft(h).
If we have an AF solution at 65.5 lb/ft3, / 144 = .455 lb/in2/ft(h).
If K=5.6
...@rowesprinkler.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 12:05 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: adjusting the K-Factor with our bare hands
I'd be concerned that you have completely muddled up kfactors for someone
who no longer looks at it as the standard and industry practices
and the
K-factor concept are two VERY specialized cases that are intended only to
describe warm water in pipes coming out of a smooth hole.
The k-factor only relates the ease with which water can escape a sprinkler. If
you plug in a modified k-factor, you are still using H-W to describe how the
fluid
using this method for estimate
calculations. (Without doing extensive testing to verify that it is
accurate)
The D-W and H-W calculation methods are simply approximations of how
fluids interact with themselves and the pipe they are in. The H-W equation
and the K-factor concept are two VERY
[mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 2:03 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: adjusting the K-Factor with our bare hands
can I say strongly enough how much I agree with what Matt said? can I say
it again? And third time being the charm, I agree with what Matt
Keep in mind that you started with a nominal K factor of 5.6. Per Table
6.2.3.1 (NFPA 13 - 2007), the range for the K factor under laboratory testing
conditions was 5.3 to 5.8. Just talking out loud, but I wonder if that
correction is really that important when the reality is the base number
: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 4:42 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: adjusting the K-Factor with our bare hands
Keep in mind that you started with a nominal K factor of 5.6. Per Table
6.2.3.1 (NFPA 13 - 2007), the range for the K factor under laboratory
testing conditions was 5.3
, June 11, 2013 2:03 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: adjusting the K-Factor with our bare hands
can I say strongly enough how much I agree with what Matt said? can I say
it again? And third time being the charm, I agree with what Matt said--a
lot--and with George's
- adjusting
K-Factors
I mean, from NFPA 13 referenced earlier?
-Original Message-
From: Ron Greenman [mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2013 2:03 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: adjusting the K-Factor with our bare hands
can I say
...@lists.firesprinkler.org on behalf of Ron Greenman
Sent: Tue 6/11/2013 5:53 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: adjusting the K-Factor with our bare hands
I love the 1. Typo. or 2. Auto Correct. or 3. Freudian ? or 4. Slotism.
...and I'm licking myself
You just keep
@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: adjusting the K-Factor with our bare hands
I love the 1. Typo. or 2. Auto Correct. or 3. Freudian ? or 4. Slotism.
...and I'm licking myself
You just keep hanging out with the woman and licking yourself. It's not a
pretty picture, but it will be now
:
In support of the teacher of the hole, even the listing labs assign the
k-factor empirically verses calculating it. (and leave his balloon alone too…)
Roland
On May 6, 2013, at 1:07 PM, Sprinkler Academy - C Bilbo
prodesigngr...@msn.com wrote:
and none of the math can be applied because
In support of the teacher of the hole, even the listing labs assign the
k-factor empirically verses calculating it. (and leave his balloon alone too…)
Roland
On May 6, 2013, at 1:07 PM, Sprinkler Academy - C Bilbo
prodesigngr...@msn.com wrote:
and none of the math can be applied because
%
ideal.
for example (actual measured / ideal) equals .98 and .8, respectively.
-Original Message-
From: Roland Huggins [mailto:rhugg...@firesprinkler.org]
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2013 10:30 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: K-Factor
In support of the teacher
.
bv
- Original Message -
From: djj8...@aol.com
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Sent: Sunday, May 5, 2013 5:19:28 PM
Subject: Re: K-Factor
Wow. You are a genius.
In a message dated 5/5/2013 12:46:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com writes:
cubic feet
perhaps you are right Bruce, thanks.
(i wouldn't want anybody having nightmares about feet and seconds)
-Original Message-
From: bver...@comcast.net [mailto:bver...@comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2013 11:06 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: K-Factor
I
to be unique
in that it is the only 'timeless' quantity of the bunch!
-Original Message-
From: djj8...@aol.com [mailto:djj8...@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2013 7:19 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: K-Factor
Wow. You are a genius.
In a message dated 5/5/2013
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad
Casterline
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 7:41 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: K-Factor
Uhhh... thanks DJJ8389? Me? If someone whom has spent years trying to wring the
magic out of NFPA 13 Hydraulic Calculations
K-factor
I'll also refer you to section 3.6.1 where it states that a sprinkler is
defined by many things including its K-factor. And it tells us to see chapter
6.
Wherein, we are told that sprinkler identification shall include the K-factor
(orifice size). We are also refered by other
: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sprinkler
Academy - C Bilbo
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 4:08 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: K-Factor
Jack,
As I said in my earlier post, Dude, I teach my
before Bernoulli. Newton
used the experimental results of this, later called 'The Law of Falling
Bodies', as one of the verifications of his Gravitational Constant. So if
someone asked me What is K-Factor?, I would say It is the constant area
acted upon by constant gravity around which Flow
. So if
someone asked me What is K-Factor?, I would say It is the constant area
acted upon by constant gravity around which Flow and Pressure vary.
-Original Message-
From: Ron Greenman [mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2013 6:13 PM
To: sprinklerforum
2007 NFPA 13 22.4.2.4.3 refers to use of k factor for balancing branch lines.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone
- Reply message -
From: Fairchild, Jack jfairch...@ballinger-ae.com
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: K-Factor
Date
Here's a Friday question that was asked of me: What's a K-Factor?
The Brock Hydraulics book states it is the discharge coefficient, but I can't
find it in NFPA 13. Am I missing it?
Jack Fairchild
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum
Jack -
A K factor (in sprinkler world) is an expression of the relationship
between pressure and discharge, as
K is equal to the DISCHARGE / SQUARE ROOT of PRESSURE
Note that the formula is not based on actual square root, but on a log
of 1.54 Square root is accepted in place of 1.54
Jack,
A K-factor is a WAAYYY over simplified description of the relationship between
waterflow and two different pressures. I am certain that Bernoulli would roll
in his grave if he knew how we use his work in this regard. Or perhaps, he
would think we were practical wonders
, 2013 at 1:36 PM, Fairchild, Jack jfairch...@ballinger-ae.com
wrote:
Here's a Friday question that was asked of me: What's a K-Factor?
The Brock Hydraulics book states it is the discharge coefficient, but I
can't find it in NFPA 13. Am I missing it?
Jack Fairchild
We are evaluating a sprinkler exposure protection system.
If anyone cares to offer up an estimate for a K-factor
on an exposure sprinkler, they are most welcome. I estimate
the K-factor between 1.8 - 4 gpm/psig^0.5 (26 - 60 Lpm/bar^0.5).
I realize these don't sound like much of a difference
f
913.927.0222 cell
www. AFPsprink.com
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of å...
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 2:56 AM
To: SprinklerFORUM@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Seeking a K-factor
correct. it is a spray nozzle after NFPA 15. No plug or cap.
scot deal
excelsior fire
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
For Technical Assistance, send an
with relish- (it was usually
lunch time).
You can get the K-Factor by using the natural beauty at the very root of
sprinkler calcs:
Torricelli's Theorem-- v = sqrt (2gh)
For example, if the id of the opening is 3/8, square feet= .000767. If the
pressure was 7 psi, feet of head, h = 16.17 ft. 2 * 32.2
. AFPsprink.com
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad Casterline
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 8:08 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Seeking a K-factor estimate
Thanks for helping, it IS appreciated.
The shape of the opening is a slit, as if someone took a hacksaw and cut
perpendicular to the long axis of a tube -- taking away 30% of the tube
circumference. The slit is roughly 2 mm tall and width is ... 30% of the
approximately 13mm (1/2-inch diameter)
Subject: 5.62 K Factor
Anybody know the make and model of a sprinkler head with a 5.62 k? of
hand?
Thanks Guys,
George Medina
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo
, November 04, 2009 10:17 PM
Subject: 5.62 K Factor
Anybody know the make and model of a sprinkler head with a 5.62 k? of
hand?
Thanks Guys,
George Medina
___
Sprinklerforum mailing list
Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
http
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 12:49 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: 5.62 K Factor
If you're proving this pipe schedule system
?
- Original Message -
From: fireg...@aol.com
To: sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org
Cc: SprinklerFORUM@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 10:17 PM
Subject: 5.62 K Factor
Anybody know the make and model of a sprinkler head with a 5.62
k? of
hand?
Thanks Guys
...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 3:22 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: 5.62 K Factor
The difference between a 5.6K orifice and a 5.62K is only .20 GPM @ 100 PSI,
so unless your calculating discharge at very high pressures who
All makes, many models. Are you trying to identify a sprinkler?
- Original Message -
From: fireg...@aol.com
To: sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org
Cc: SprinklerFORUM@firesprinkler.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 10:17 PM
Subject: 5.62 K Factor
Anybody know the make
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: k-factor in DW calcs
Travis,
When you finish I would really like to see the results of your DW calc
compared to a regular old HW calc just to see the order of magnitude.
Since we deal in GPM have you found a way to account for the gradual
dilution
80 matches
Mail list logo
