A fire pump flow test would typically have this information. You could
just look at the inlet pressure and the flow. The backflow preventer might
complicate things slightly. It would be helpful to know why you need this
information.
Thanks,
Skyler Bilbo
On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 8:52 AM
Engineering*
>
> *CNS PTX / Y-12* | 865-576-5258
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:
> sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] *On Behalf Of *Skyler
> Bilbo via Sprinklerforum
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 28, 2019 10:03 AM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesp
g.com/> *
> On 09/10/2019 12:51 PM, Skyler Bilbo via Sprinklerforum wrote:
>
> I think it is worth pointing out that the way our table reads in 13R, and
> the way that the plumbing code sizes piping, uses fixture units to convert
> to flow, which do not convert linearly. For example,
I just ran into a somewhat similar situation last week. It seems like you
are forgetting something major. It is very likely that you have to install
sprinklers below the mezzanine floor. Unless I'm wrong, this counts as an
obstruction over 4 ft in width for standard spray sprinklers, and I
I have a little experience with this. I have seen a system brand called
"Flamex" on the dust collection ducts. This system uses flame sensors and
solenoids to extinguish a fire in the duct, which is a better system than
just installing sprinklers in there. I can say that installing sprinklers
Take a look at section 16.2.1.2. I believe in your case, the Misc. Storage
criteria does apply. However, for Class IV commodities on racks 10-12 ft
tall, the criteria is EH1, per the Misc. Storage Table 13.2.1.
I believe where the biggest confusion, and the importance of the definition
comes
Could it be based on minimum supply for standpipe? I believe it is 4"
minimum for combined standpipe/sprinkler system. Could be a case of the AHJ
applying that requirement, incorrectly?
-Skyler
On Wed, Mar 18, 2020, 1:00 PM Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via
Sprinklerforum wrote:
>
Brian,
I believe you are looking for section 8.15.23.3 (2013 edition). The
handbook has a nice picture, and does a much better job of explaining
this. Extend coverage into the space above the ceiling a distance of at
least 0.6 times the square root of the remote area. Note that it also
says:
All,
I'm in need of some wisdom. I am seeing these polyethylene bulk containers
for seed (corn/soy) more and more, and I'm wondering if anyone has done
full scale testing with them to classify the commodity. The best
information that I have been able to find is in FMDS 8-1,Table 1, which
would
Matt,
My main concern with your application would be that the section you are
referring to doesn't apply to the situation you are describing. You can't
apply a rule to spacing off a wall that is meant for offsetting a line due
to an obstruction. Two different sections/situations. You say you
bstruction?
>
>
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Sprinklerforum *On
> Behalf Of *Skyler Bilbo via Sprinklerforum
> *Sent:* Friday, May 29, 2020 4:58 PM
> *To:* sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> *Cc:* Skyler Bilbo
> *Subject:* Re: ESFR spacing
>
>
>
&
I don't think this has been said yet on this thread, but I think it is
worth mentioning. It is not a fire sprinkler contractor's job to decide
where sprinklers are required, and/or which standard is applicable (NFPA
13/13R). I know we all probably do this, but we really shouldn't. I would
bet
The following is a good read. Should be educational for you and the
engineer. Google Corrosion Resistance Ratio for more information. The CRR
for each size pipe should be listed on your submittal from the pipe
manufacturer that you use.
I have not had this issue, but from what you have said, my best guess would
be that the pressure is dropping on the city side, and causing the backflow
to dump. I would ask if any big water users have been built nearby, and/or
if someone has been flow testing/flushing hydrants nearby. You may
I agree with John, but I will add some more information. I have seen this
situation. In my case, it came from IBC 2015, section 903.2.11. "...the
basement shall be equipped throughout with an approved automatic sprinkler
system." I would still have the same question you asked originally about
The structure needs to support a larger point load (with a very complex
explanation, it probably does). Otherwise, if a guy working on the roof
were to stand on one foot, the structure could potentially collapse.
Structural engineering calculations are extremely complex (I would say more
so than
https://www.bavco.com/ref-manual/model/beeco-hersey/BEECO-HERSEY-HERSEY-2.pdf
Skyler Bilbo
1700 S. Raney Street
Effingham, IL 62401
217-819-6404 Direct
217-347-7315 Fax
sbi...@wenteplumbing.com
www.wenteplumbing.com
On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 11:47 AM BILL MENSTER via Sprinklerforum <
I don't think I disagree with anything here, but I might add to the
conversation. It is amazing how us sprinkler guys always end up telling
the engineers what size pipe they need.
Background: Generally, the plumbing code calculations for domestic water
usage looks like a curve. This means that
Yes, this has been true for a long time. It can be very important to
mention that this is only for standard spray sprinklers that we are talking
about. I have seen this misapplied to ESFR's often.
- Skyler
On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 7:00 PM Bob Knight via Sprinklerforum <
The details I have seen involve the regular long concrete wedge anchors
installed between the hollow cores, in the solid part. I would start by
asking the structural engineer and/or hollow core manufacturer how they
recommend installing seismic bracing attachments for the sprinkler piping.
Welding
I believe the Viking boot matches your description.
https://www.vikinggroupinc.com/dry-sprinkler-insulating-boot-assembly
-Skyler
On Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 6:47 PM Mark Phillips via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:
> Hello everyone
> Need some help identifying a
Micah,
I agree with your conclusion. The only thing I would add, is that you may
look at the definition of miscellaneous storage (3.9.1.18). If you can
meet this, you could use the criteria from Chapter 13, which I think is
essentially what you are trying to accomplish.
Plastic storage is
Out of curiosity, what happens if a fire department pumps 2000 GPM through
a small (say 750 GPM) fire pump with a city bypass? I want to say that one
of the pump reps told me that fire pumps can pump well past 150% of their
flow rating without any issue, but I'm curious if anyone can confirm this
I think horizontal separations are very often misunderstood. Many people
think these are the same as firewalls. I may have missed it, but I don't
think section 510 of the building code was mentioned. This is a great
place to start, and if you haven't read it recently, it is worth a
refresh.
I could dream up a scenario where a 13R system had a higher pressure
requirement (with a lower flow) than a standpipe calculation. Being
limited to 4 stories definitely makes this a lot less likely to occur in
the real world. It could happen, but I have never seen it here in the real
world.
It took me a while to find the right ones, but here is where I buy
cellophane bags:
https://www.clearcellobags.com/catalog/item/6438551/6271045.htm
Thanks,
Skyler Bilbo
1700 S. Raney Street
Effingham, IL 62401
217-819-6404 Direct
217-347-7315 Fax
sbi...@wenteplumbing.com
www.wenteplumbing.com
Same site offers a 4" NPT to 4-1/2" NST female-female adapter. Probably
need to get AHJ approval, since it is not listed/approved.
https://www.firehosedirect.com/aluminum-4-1-2-nh-to-4-nh-double-female
https://www.firehosedirect.com/aluminum-4-1-2-nh-rocker-lug-plug
- Skyler Bilbo
On Thu,
Sorry, the one I sent was NST on the 4" side. This should be the correct
one.
https://www.firehosedirect.com/aluminum-4-1-2-nh-to-4-npt-double-female
- Skyler Bilbo
On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 1:52 PM Skyler Bilbo
wrote:
> Same site offers a 4" NPT to 4-1/2" NST female-female adapter.
Consider installing the check valve vertically. Should help with your
concerns, since gravity would help keep the clapper shut. I would think
the longer the vertical pipe drop is on top of the check, the more likely
it is to hold, so you may consider that when laying out your riser room.
To
I see in NFPA 13 where standard coverage HSW sprinklers are allowed to be
used 12 to 18 inches below the ceiling, where listed for such use. Does
such a sprinkler exist? All of the Tyco, Reliable, and Viking
sprinklers that I looked up say they are listed for 4 to 12 inches.
Thanks,
Skyler
Open-Grid Ceilings are addressed in NFPA 13, 2013 edition, section 8.15.14.
Thanks,
Skyler Bilbo
1700 S. Raney Street
Effingham, IL 62401
217-819-6404 Direct
217-347-7315 Fax
sbi...@wenteplumbing.com
www.wenteplumbing.com
On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 8:54 AM David Williams via Sprinklerforum <
Hey Tom,
Without explaining all of the math, if your system is 10,000 gallons and
you already had it full of water (I think you said you could fill to 70 PSI
from the city supply), with no air in the system, you would have it pumped
up to 200 psi with your little 4 GPM pump in less than 12
Scot - I don't think your base equation is quite right. You may be trying
to use the ideal gas law here, on a liquid, which doesn't work. Also, I
think technically you would be changing "n" in the equation, not V (the
volume of the system is constant at P1 and P2), but I don't think this
really
Tom,
My company doesn't do alarms, but we always suggest pump run being a full
alarm, regardless if it dials out or not. In theory, this is supposed to
indicate a water flow condition, implying a sprinkler activation. Of
course, more often than not it is a clogged jockey sensing line, or
a
Tom,
Seeing that you are in Illinois, it may be helpful to mention that the
Illinois Plumbing Code allows up to 20 heads to be directly connected to
the domestic water system. There are other requirements in the Plumbing
Code, which can be found in Section 890.1130.
Unfortunately, I don't know
There is a section that talks about only going back 1.2 times the
square root of the remote area beyond the ceiling. NFPA 13, 2013 edition,
Section 8.15.23.
Skyler Bilbo
On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 7:25 AM Brian Harris via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:
> There's
It sounds like the architect is working hard to inspire kids with his
beautiful ceiling design... From the little information you gave, it may
be more like a cloud ceiling than a traditional obstruction. See section
3.3.5.1 for the definition, and then 8.15.1.2.1.3 for criteria. You may
also
I never had this problem before, but it looks like a Deringer 20 backflow
has lower opening pressures. You may also consider something like several
smaller Watts 2000B-FP in parallel, depending on the flows you need.
I don't think piping the jockey differently would help, but let me know if
you
IMHO, the 3x rule does not apply. Only because I can't say with certainty
that you can meet this requirement from A.10.2.7.2.1.3: "This works for
small noncontinuous obstructions and for continuous obstructions where the
sprinkler can throw water over and under the obstruction."
It seems to me
You may also want to double check A.11.1.2, depending on the square
footages of your areas.
Thanks,
Skyler Bilbo
217-819-6404 Cell
On Thu, Sep 9, 2021 at 3:10 PM tstone52--- via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:
> Chapter 12 adjacent hazards or design methods,
I agree with JH's logic, but I am struggling with this pressure gain from a
20 ft drop idea. Isn't the net effect due to elevation 0 since the
pressure gets changed by the same amount at the riser, or wherever it goes
up in elevation, before it comes back down? All that matters is the source
Domestic steel prices are through the roof. Domestic HRB went from around
$600 per ton around October 2020 to around $1,966 per ton recently, in
pretty much a straight line up. Make sure you are communicating this to
your customers. Wood has pretty much come back to earth from the recent
high,
Does anyone have a source for foreign pipe that you can send me off forum?
I'm having difficulty finding a supplier that can quote it. Specifically
schedule 10.
Thanks,
Skyler Bilbo
Wente Plumbing and Fire Protection
1700 S. Raney Street
Effingham, IL 62401
217-819-6404 Direct
It says 0.6 over 5000 square feet or 0.90 over 3000 square feet. Either
could be more demanding depending on pipe layout/size and maybe sprinkler
k-factor. 0.6 over 5000 is actually 300 GPM more demanding than the other
criteria, so in certain situations the .6 criteria could be controlling
>From the picture you sent, it looks like you have to install sprinklers.
I think section 8.15.1 is what you are looking for (at least in the 2013 or
2016 editions). The most common way I have seen to avoid installing
sprinklers in this area is to fill it with noncombustible insulation. If
this
inal Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum On
> Behalf Of Skyler Bilbo via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Friday, October 15, 2021 8:37 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Cc: Skyler Bilbo ; Brian Harris <
> bhar...@bvssystemsinc.com>
> Subject: Re: Concealed Space B
See the video below. Fast forward to the spray foam test at about 3
minutes in. Spoiler: flashover takes 44 seconds. Since you are probably
acting as the only fire professional on this project, I would suggest you
share the video with your customer so they understand the gravity of the
I think you are correct for your described situation: you have a
noncombustible overhang, under 4 ft, with no storage underneath, then no
sprinklers is OK.
It sure seems to me like we don't have to install sprinklers under
*combustible* overhangs 4 ft or less as long as there is no storage
IMHO, defining a grid as any system that can supply a sprinkler from more
than one direction is a poor threshold. Just because you install sprinklers
on a looped main or line, does not magically turn it into a gridded system.
The location of the sprinklers should have nothing to do with it.
May I
Consider the following picture (I'm an Engineer, not an artist). It shows
the same connections as the one you presented, in 2D and exaggerated to
emphasize that the main routing doesn't matter. I would argue this is a
grid, whether it is laid out the way I show, or the way it is on your
drawing.
I'll bring it up, because I think it is pertinent. It is popular in my
area to throw in chlorine tablets every so often when installing an
underground water main into a building. Once the main is completely
installed, they typically fill it, shut the control valve off and see if
pressure drops
What was the exact make/model of the grooved couplings? While flexible
grooved couplings will definitely allow the pipe to move under a pressure
surge, I have seen some rigid couplings "grow" as well. If they were
replaced with quality rigid couplings, then tested with the pump, you
probably
Jamie,
In my experience, they are extremely directional. Ask for the cut sheets,
or get the model number and find the cut sheets. Many times there is a
diagram showing the directional heat, since they usually want to make sure
these are actually mounted high enough that they aren't
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