Re: [biofuels-biz] RE: californians 50%
You know, while it may be true that Californians have practiced and studied some good conservation principles, I also think David has a point. Back when I was taking some hard look at America's overall energy usage, home heating oil is a very significant part of that usage. Sometimes the statisticians will break out home heating oil from other statistics because it can tend to skew our understanding. Home heating oil is, I think, not as important in some parts of the country. We do have heating and cooling needs here in San Diego, but it is somewhat a matter of degree and location. By the ocean, it is cooler and one doesn't need A/C as much. Further inland A/C could be more important, it can get *very* hot in some areas, but it is dry here and not like some of the more humid extreme-heat situations. As to energy needs during cool periods, it is important to have heat, but obviously not as important nor as demanding on the energy supply as in a climate that often goes well below freezing, such as one finds in other parts of the country. On Fri, 24 Jan 2003 01:16:48 +0100, you wrote: Hi David, The fact is that California during many years have a very active program for saving of energy. This is the reason, because if you look at other states in US, with similar climate conditions, they are at average or above average. Of course, a lot is AC in those states, very much offices. If you look at statistics over the years and growth, you can clearly see that it is man made savings. California is the state that is and has been the most active state in US, when it comes to energy conservation and pollution. We had many exchange students and visiting professors from California in the Swedish universities. Still the Californian use twice as much energy as the average Swede. But they are best in the US after Hawaii, which is definitely determined by the climate. Hakan At 06:55 PM 1/23/2003 -0500, you wrote: Re: Californians 50% I don't want to step on a good thing, but is it 50% because of the climate, or 50% because Californians are different or more energy conscious? My gfather lives in San Diego. He almost never has to turn the heat on, ever. He only uses AC on the hotest of days.. perhaps 5 days if that. Contrast that to my coast, and its cold cold cold in the winter.. and hot and muggy in the summer where you might leave the AC in the car on while you tkae a shower and get ready for your date..lest you get all sweaty before you AC can cool your car. not everyone owns a garage So i dont really like the 50% one.. on the other hand.. THIS ONE http://energy.saving.nu/biofuel-sticker-3.jpg is absolutely hilarious. and gives you the secondary point of committing suicide on your dependence on the pump. funny.. :) Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] RE: californians 50%
Hi MM, Look at, http://california.energy.saving.nu/ especially, http://energy.saving.nu/california/victim.shtml and http://peakdemand.energy.saving.nu/ http://fastfixes.energy.saving.nu/ and you will find some data. It is quite interesting and you can see what I was pointing out earlier. Hakan At 11:49 PM 1/25/2003 -0800, you wrote: You know, while it may be true that Californians have practiced and studied some good conservation principles, I also think David has a point. Back when I was taking some hard look at America's overall energy usage, home heating oil is a very significant part of that usage. Sometimes the statisticians will break out home heating oil from other statistics because it can tend to skew our understanding. Home heating oil is, I think, not as important in some parts of the country. We do have heating and cooling needs here in San Diego, but it is somewhat a matter of degree and location. By the ocean, it is cooler and one doesn't need A/C as much. Further inland A/C could be more important, it can get *very* hot in some areas, but it is dry here and not like some of the more humid extreme-heat situations. As to energy needs during cool periods, it is important to have heat, but obviously not as important nor as demanding on the energy supply as in a climate that often goes well below freezing, such as one finds in other parts of the country. On Fri, 24 Jan 2003 01:16:48 +0100, you wrote: Hi David, The fact is that California during many years have a very active program for saving of energy. This is the reason, because if you look at other states in US, with similar climate conditions, they are at average or above average. Of course, a lot is AC in those states, very much offices. If you look at statistics over the years and growth, you can clearly see that it is man made savings. California is the state that is and has been the most active state in US, when it comes to energy conservation and pollution. We had many exchange students and visiting professors from California in the Swedish universities. Still the Californian use twice as much energy as the average Swede. But they are best in the US after Hawaii, which is definitely determined by the climate. Hakan At 06:55 PM 1/23/2003 -0500, you wrote: Re: Californians 50% I don't want to step on a good thing, but is it 50% because of the climate, or 50% because Californians are different or more energy conscious? My gfather lives in San Diego. He almost never has to turn the heat on, ever. He only uses AC on the hotest of days.. perhaps 5 days if that. Contrast that to my coast, and its cold cold cold in the winter.. and hot and muggy in the summer where you might leave the AC in the car on while you tkae a shower and get ready for your date..lest you get all sweaty before you AC can cool your car. not everyone owns a garage So i dont really like the 50% one.. on the other hand.. THIS ONE http://energy.saving.nu/biofuel-sticker-3.jpg is absolutely hilarious. and gives you the secondary point of committing suicide on your dependence on the pump. funny.. :) Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] waste oil burners bu rning glycerine,Ê ffa'sÊ
OK, its the least I can do. I'm amazed sometimes about how complicated this invention process can be. And how much money it takes. As of today, I am seemingly hours from light off, I think. You understand, I built one conversion system to turn a Beckett burner into a Babington burner. That system was kind of jury rigged, but I got at least 40 hours of burning time on it. Most of that time was without a chimney, just venting into my very well ventilated shop. Lots of people came by to see it and remark about how clean it was burning. I also ran the burner on used motor oil, but without a chimney, it was just too nasty. With vegetable oil, it was actually pleasant to stand around the open flame, about 3' long. No one got a headache from the vegetable oil combustion. I figured it was producing about 100,000 btu's, but that is subject to confirmation. Instead of out in the cold, I'm working on getting the second generation burner going in my basement. To do this, I had to install a used HB Smith boiler, convert it to hot water from steam, hook it up to my overly complicated piping system, then build a second generation conversion system. The new burner is a Carlin brand, just to show that the conversion process is independent of the brand of burner. This second generation needs to use all of the usable components of the existing burner, especially the pump, controls, motor, fan, etc. Its not a really complicated conversion, just needs a babington head, a few pieces of tubing and a few nuts and bolts. I still intend to write a manual sometime this winter, complete with exploded diagrams. etc. I just want to get the damn thing working and not have an exploded house in the process. As it turns out, the original conversion was just about right in terms of the technological details, just dumb luck. After many reiterations, I'm back there again. Perhaps that means the design is as simple as it can be, but no simpler. So, every business day, it seems, I need a few more parts from the supply houses (McMaster), and every day some other technical issue arises. And I'm still heating my house with wood. So this is a real possibility, but don't wait up for me, I may be awhile. As for the original burner, its directed into the new masonry byproduct burner. But, baby, its cold outside, and my system really isn't ready for full time operation up there. Its a plumbing extravaganza, and still needs a lot more connection, before its ready to do its job. In the ideal world, someone would want to buy into this invention, and forward me a few dollars so I could finish this thing. But no has offered, and I'm unemployed, except for this project. Things are proceeding slowly, but not for lack of effort. All I can say is stay tuned and see what develops. I'll be sure to let you know. Tom Leue In a message dated 1/25/03 5:58:41 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Any chance you could give us some more details or a schematic? this sounds really interesting (though most of us wouldn't have access to a masonry stove just for our biodiesel operation) Mark At 12:04 PM 1/12/2003 -0500, you wrote: I've got a couple years experience with burning glycerin. I had to do it, I've got such a large accumulation of the stuff. I've tried it in a couple of wood boilers and in a babington burner. The stuff does burn, but it takes special conditions to keep it going. Basically, without being exact about the fine details, it takes about 1000 degrees of temperature to keep the stuff going. Below that temperature and you'll mostly just burn off the methanol component, leaving a heavy vegetable based tar residue.ÊÊ It tried it in a babington, but it does not burn above about a 25% mix with oil. In a wood boiler it burns on top of coals well, but when the wood fire dies out it just accumulates the glycerin without much reduction. My current burner has a babington burner running on vegetable oil into a masonry stove with a separate drip of glycerin onto a hot steel plate. It burns very cleanly and VERY hot. Absolutely no emissions visible. Now I have to find out what to do with over 100 btu's per hour. Tom Leue - Homestead Inc. www.yellowbiodiesel.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: bumper stickers- let's make 'em! :)
My 2 cents worth sent to the biofuels list by mistake: Fossil fuel users... an evolutionary dead end Ed On Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 12:25 PM, murdoch wrote: On Sat, 25 Jan 2003 02:45:31 +0100, you wrote: Hi, Suggestions at, http://energy.saving.nu/stickers/ Hakan You've been very industrious. I would suggest for the Californian one you add the word Real (e.g. Real Californians Use Biofuel). I sort of like the Supply and Demand Biofuels Now! one and I think The Support your local Economy one would be ok if you got rid of the word instead (i.e., just Use Biofuels is probably ok, although I understand the word instead relates to the picture). I can see some that I'd consider putting on my vehicle. Of course, one thing that comes up, since this is sort of about marketing and getting a message across quickly and the difficulty of staying with what you want to say, is that we all have somewhat different ideas or agendas, so common ground is not always possible. But in any case I see some that I'd consider. I wonder if they'd be easy to print out as they are, or if they'd come out better to have some online place charge a fee, one could send them a picture, and they could send one sticker? I think that was the problem I ran into before... you had to buy a minimum of several hundred, and since these have color they'd be even more. But I have a cruddy printer at home, so that affects my ability to project doing these myself. I like the way it worked with putting the URL on the stickers. It gives it a personal touch, where one could see it and have an idea of what's up. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Re: bumper stickers- let's make 'em! :)
On Sat, 25 Jan 2003 02:45:31 +0100, you wrote: Hi, Suggestions at, http://energy.saving.nu/stickers/ Hakan You've been very industrious. I would suggest for the Californian one you add the word Real (e.g. Real Californians Use Biofuel). I sort of like the Supply and Demand Biofuels Now! one and I think The Support your local Economy one would be ok if you got rid of the word instead (i.e., just Use Biofuels is probably ok, although I understand the word instead relates to the picture). I can see some that I'd consider putting on my vehicle. Of course, one thing that comes up, since this is sort of about marketing and getting a message across quickly and the difficulty of staying with what you want to say, is that we all have somewhat different ideas or agendas, so common ground is not always possible. But in any case I see some that I'd consider. I wonder if they'd be easy to print out as they are, or if they'd come out better to have some online place charge a fee, one could send them a picture, and they could send one sticker? I think that was the problem I ran into before... you had to buy a minimum of several hundred, and since these have color they'd be even more. But I have a cruddy printer at home, so that affects my ability to project doing these myself. I like the way it worked with putting the URL on the stickers. It gives it a personal touch, where one could see it and have an idea of what's up. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] bubble drying- big correction
Mark, When you raised the bubble-dry issue a few weeks back, I wasn't convinced that the main action was necessarily water evaporation. I tend to store samples of biodiesel in capped 2 litre Dr. Pepper style plastic bottles, and had noticed that if an air space is left above the liquid, it always reduces in volume, partially collapsing the bottle. My surmise has been that a oxidation process was at work, where the oxidation products are liquid, and the oxygen is removed from the air. I have also noted that if the sample strarted hazy, it would clear at the same time, not always with a preciptated residue of water or anything else. It would be interesting to test for oxygen depletion in the air pocket. I did try a rudimentary test to extinguish a burning taper (like we did at school chemistry lessons), but this was not conclusive. David T. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] waste oil burners bu rning glyc erine,Ê ffa'sÊ
Tom, Mark, For comparison, my glyc. burner is a converted natural gas water heater from my brother's house. It started with one Babbington nozzle fashioned from a soup-spoon, with air supplied from a 12 volt tyre-inflating compressor. Enough ambient air is entrained by the atomising jet to complete combustion, but it can blow back if the wind is in the wrong direction. It now has an additional air blower to keep the flame front away from the nozzle. It runs very well on biodiesel, less well on pre-heated SVO, and poorly on pre-heated glyc alone. I tried mixing fuels in variable ratio using a tee-piece in the supply line, but adjusment was too critical. Next version will have 2 Babbington nozzles (probably tea-spoons), one for biodiesel and one for pre-heated glyc. The atomised spray jets will converge into the centre of the combustion tube. In this way the fuel mix can be controlled more easily, and the temperature can be brought up to a steady high value before introducing the glyc. Heat is removed by a pumped water circuit and transferred to WVO heating and meth recovery stills. With abundant heat, it should be possible to distil XS meth from biod as well as from glyc. There is then no dissolved meth in the washwater, which is otherwise a potential pollution hazard. David T. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] waste oil burners bu rning glyc erine,Ê ffa'sÊ
David T. That's great, you are really progressing here. I've done some fuel combination work, but I've got a lot more to do this spring. The two Babington jets going together probably will work, but it sounds complicated to me. I have one waste oil based flame onto a sloping heavy metal drip plate, where the glycerin is dribbled. I'm supposed to use the hot water to run the vacuum extraction, but that's still in development. BTW, I'm told that heating the fuel to get rid of methanol may degrade it. Most people use the wash system to remove methanol. Most of the methanol is in the glycerin, anyway. Tom Leue In a message dated 1/26/03 4:00:33 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Tom, Mark, For comparison, my glyc. burner is a converted natural gas water heater from my brother's house.Ê It started with one Babington nozzle fashioned from a soup-spoon, with air supplied from a 12 volt tyre-inflating compressor. Enough ambient air is entrained by the atomizing jet to complete combustion, but it can blow back if the wind is in the wrong direction.Ê It now has an additional air blower to keep the flame front away from the nozzle.Ê It runs very well on biodiesel, less well on preheated SVO, and poorly on pre-heated glyc alone.Ê I tried mixing fuels in variable ratio using a tee-piece in the supply line, but adjustment was too critical.Ê Next version will have 2 Babington nozzles (probably teaspoons), one for biodiesel and one for preheated glyc.Ê The atomized spray jets will converge into the centre of the combustion tube.Ê In this way the fuel mix can be controlled more easily, and the temperature can be brought up to a steady high value before introducing the glyc. Heat is removed by a pumped water circuit and transferred to WVO heating and meth recovery stills.Ê With abundant heat, it should be possible to distill XS meth from biod as well as from glyc. There is then no dissolved meth in the washwater, which is otherwise a potential pollution hazard. David T. - Homestead Inc. www.yellowbiodiesel.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Re: californians 50%
On Sun, 26 Jan 2003 09:14:02 +0100, you wrote: Hi MM, Look at, http://california.energy.saving.nu/ California has about 12% of U.S. population (33 million out of 272 million as of 1999 Almanac Figures), not the nearly 20% that you have in your statement at that top. Even accounting for statistical messups associated with illegal immigration making the numbers hard to figure out, I don't think it would come out to nearly 20% (maybe I'm wrong). Your other research that I've glanced at looks very in-depth, so I'm sure you had attention to accuracy. I'd have to give some thought as to the issues more in-depth, but it's clear that you've given a lot of attention to the matter. especially, http://energy.saving.nu/california/victim.shtml and http://peakdemand.energy.saving.nu/ http://fastfixes.energy.saving.nu/ and you will find some data. It is quite interesting and you can see what I was pointing out earlier. Hakan At 11:49 PM 1/25/2003 -0800, you wrote: You know, while it may be true that Californians have practiced and studied some good conservation principles, I also think David has a point. Back when I was taking some hard look at America's overall energy usage, home heating oil is a very significant part of that usage. Sometimes the statisticians will break out home heating oil from other statistics because it can tend to skew our understanding. Home heating oil is, I think, not as important in some parts of the country. We do have heating and cooling needs here in San Diego, but it is somewhat a matter of degree and location. By the ocean, it is cooler and one doesn't need A/C as much. Further inland A/C could be more important, it can get *very* hot in some areas, but it is dry here and not like some of the more humid extreme-heat situations. As to energy needs during cool periods, it is important to have heat, but obviously not as important nor as demanding on the energy supply as in a climate that often goes well below freezing, such as one finds in other parts of the country. On Fri, 24 Jan 2003 01:16:48 +0100, you wrote: Hi David, The fact is that California during many years have a very active program for saving of energy. This is the reason, because if you look at other states in US, with similar climate conditions, they are at average or above average. Of course, a lot is AC in those states, very much offices. If you look at statistics over the years and growth, you can clearly see that it is man made savings. California is the state that is and has been the most active state in US, when it comes to energy conservation and pollution. We had many exchange students and visiting professors from California in the Swedish universities. Still the Californian use twice as much energy as the average Swede. But they are best in the US after Hawaii, which is definitely determined by the climate. Hakan At 06:55 PM 1/23/2003 -0500, you wrote: Re: Californians 50% I don't want to step on a good thing, but is it 50% because of the climate, or 50% because Californians are different or more energy conscious? My gfather lives in San Diego. He almost never has to turn the heat on, ever. He only uses AC on the hotest of days.. perhaps 5 days if that. Contrast that to my coast, and its cold cold cold in the winter.. and hot and muggy in the summer where you might leave the AC in the car on while you tkae a shower and get ready for your date..lest you get all sweaty before you AC can cool your car. not everyone owns a garage So i dont really like the 50% one.. on the other hand.. THIS ONE http://energy.saving.nu/biofuel-sticker-3.jpg is absolutely hilarious. and gives you the secondary point of committing suicide on your dependence on the pump. funny.. :) Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
[biofuels-biz] Re: [evworld] Re: bumper stickers- let's make 'em! :)
Cool!! Like Real Californians Eat x. I really like that one. Thanks for the suggestion Murdoch!! Hey Hakan, you might also want to include the SVO'rs out there, Real Californian's Use SVO or Real Californian's Use WVO (acroynm's could be expanded). James Slayden On Sun, 26 Jan 2003, murdoch wrote: On Sat, 25 Jan 2003 02:45:31 +0100, you wrote: Hi, Suggestions at, http://energy.saving.nu/stickers/ Hakan You've been very industrious. I would suggest for the Californian one you add the word Real (e.g. Real Californians Use Biofuel). I sort of like the Supply and Demand Biofuels Now! one and I think The Support your local Economy one would be ok if you got rid of the word instead (i.e., just Use Biofuels is probably ok, although I understand the word instead relates to the picture). I can see some that I'd consider putting on my vehicle. Of course, one thing that comes up, since this is sort of about marketing and getting a message across quickly and the difficulty of staying with what you want to say, is that we all have somewhat different ideas or agendas, so common ground is not always possible. But in any case I see some that I'd consider. I wonder if they'd be easy to print out as they are, or if they'd come out better to have some online place charge a fee, one could send them a picture, and they could send one sticker? I think that was the problem I ran into before... you had to buy a minimum of several hundred, and since these have color they'd be even more. But I have a cruddy printer at home, so that affects my ability to project doing these myself. I like the way it worked with putting the URL on the stickers. It gives it a personal touch, where one could see it and have an idea of what's up. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT HGTV Dream Home Giveaway To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] the plot thickens was Re: [biofuel] bubble drying- big correction
Continuing in the overly dramatic subject line for this thread vein... Well I went to weigh and then to dry and reweigh the samples I had, and found another annoying and very odd thing. Here's a recap: a few weeks ago when I started experimenting with 'bubbledrying', I had taken some freshly washed fuel that was somewhat hazy, and I had put a hazy sample into a tightly sealed jar, then 'bubbledried' the rest of the fuel until it cleared up all the haze and the fuel was brightly crystal clear. We normally assume that clear (WASHED) fuel is a sign that the fuel has released all of the water that might have been dissolved in it from the washing process. I then put a sample of that presumably 'dried' and clear fuel into a similar size jar with about the same amount of air space as the first sample had gotten, and sealed it tightly as well. I thought it would be good to have the samples to show people the difference between dried and undried fuel. but within about two weeks I found that both samples gradually got hazy again, and this was at a fairly warm room temperature (cold will make fuel haze appear for various reasons, but that's not what was happening here) SO I was going to take both of the now-identical-looking samples, weigh them, then heat them to drive off any water, and then reweigh them to see whether one (which had previously been clear but then re-hazed) actually had less water content. It wasn't going to be a very accurate test because I only had a small sample of each (about 200 ml each). I couldn't do a bigger test because my most recent batch of washed fuel had 'cleared' on it's own in two days (in a sealed drum, at that) without any bubbledrying and I didnt' have any hazy fuel left. the other factors here are that the stuff in the sample jars was probably not the best-washed fuel I've produced, and that I'm boring you all with this cause I'm trying to figure out if the haze clearing experienced in bubble drying is actually 'drying', or this clearing is actually some kind of chemical reaction between something in the air and something in biodiesel (and guessing that whatever that reaction is, it's reversible). ANyway I went to do that weighing bit today, and found another odd thing: one -but only one- of the samples had gone crystal clear (which is pretty normal for washed fuel that sits for a few weeks like this one had) Unfortunately I never labeled which was which (since originally it was 'obvious' at the time which was hazy and which was clear), so I don't know if it was the bubbledried one or the normally settled one. Weird stuff, any thoughts? I will continue with this next time I wash some fuel to the same 'specs' and have some that's hazy... It occurred to me that an extra night of bubbledrying exposed the biodiesel to an extra night of cold and that some kind of tallow esters precipitation happened that the main tank of drying fuel experienced but that the first sealed sample did not. But I had this clearing and then gradual hazing happen twice now with different samples, and one of the times the hazy sample jar had sat outside along with the vat of stuff that was bubbledrying, and both got similarly cold. Don't know if it is at all relevant to the current clearing (at different rates) that I;m seeing in the samples. Below are a couple of replies I got on biofuel and biofuels-biz. One of them is relevant here and the other is just about the measurement I was trying to do today... Mark from David Teal: To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] bubble drying- big correction Mark, When you raised the bubble-dry issue a few weeks back, I wasn't convinced that the main action was necessarily water evaporation. I tend to store samples of biodiesel in capped 2 litre Dr. Pepper style plastic bottles, and had noticed that if an air space is left above the liquid, it always reduces in volume, partially collapsing the bottle. My surmise has been that a oxidation process was at work, where the oxidation products are liquid, and the oxygen is removed from the air. I have also noted that if the sample strarted hazy, it would clear at the same time, not always with a preciptated residue of water or anything else. It would be interesting to test for oxygen depletion in the air pocket. I did try a rudimentary test to extinguish a burning taper (like we did at school chemistry lessons), but this was not conclusive. David T. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ from Paul Gobert - we were discussing measuring water content in biodiesel by weighing, then
[biofuel] Re: [biofuels-biz] RE: californians 50%
Hi MM, Look at, http://california.energy.saving.nu/ especially, http://energy.saving.nu/california/victim.shtml and http://peakdemand.energy.saving.nu/ http://fastfixes.energy.saving.nu/ and you will find some data. It is quite interesting and you can see what I was pointing out earlier. Hakan At 11:49 PM 1/25/2003 -0800, you wrote: You know, while it may be true that Californians have practiced and studied some good conservation principles, I also think David has a point. Back when I was taking some hard look at America's overall energy usage, home heating oil is a very significant part of that usage. Sometimes the statisticians will break out home heating oil from other statistics because it can tend to skew our understanding. Home heating oil is, I think, not as important in some parts of the country. We do have heating and cooling needs here in San Diego, but it is somewhat a matter of degree and location. By the ocean, it is cooler and one doesn't need A/C as much. Further inland A/C could be more important, it can get *very* hot in some areas, but it is dry here and not like some of the more humid extreme-heat situations. As to energy needs during cool periods, it is important to have heat, but obviously not as important nor as demanding on the energy supply as in a climate that often goes well below freezing, such as one finds in other parts of the country. On Fri, 24 Jan 2003 01:16:48 +0100, you wrote: Hi David, The fact is that California during many years have a very active program for saving of energy. This is the reason, because if you look at other states in US, with similar climate conditions, they are at average or above average. Of course, a lot is AC in those states, very much offices. If you look at statistics over the years and growth, you can clearly see that it is man made savings. California is the state that is and has been the most active state in US, when it comes to energy conservation and pollution. We had many exchange students and visiting professors from California in the Swedish universities. Still the Californian use twice as much energy as the average Swede. But they are best in the US after Hawaii, which is definitely determined by the climate. Hakan At 06:55 PM 1/23/2003 -0500, you wrote: Re: Californians 50% I don't want to step on a good thing, but is it 50% because of the climate, or 50% because Californians are different or more energy conscious? My gfather lives in San Diego. He almost never has to turn the heat on, ever. He only uses AC on the hotest of days.. perhaps 5 days if that. Contrast that to my coast, and its cold cold cold in the winter.. and hot and muggy in the summer where you might leave the AC in the car on while you tkae a shower and get ready for your date..lest you get all sweaty before you AC can cool your car. not everyone owns a garage So i dont really like the 50% one.. on the other hand.. THIS ONE http://energy.saving.nu/biofuel-sticker-3.jpg is absolutely hilarious. and gives you the secondary point of committing suicide on your dependence on the pump. funny.. :) Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] oil production
Permaculture is a design system, not a farming system. Which is not to knock it. But,IMO, you'd do better to start with the work of Howard and the founders of organic growing, or at least add it to permaculture. I think this is underrating Permaculture a bit. It IS a system, that can be used for many Sustainable purposes. The Design section is just one part of the overall picture. Permaculture is an adaptation of Peasant agriculture systems, so is more than Organic agriculture, as it tends to look at the overall planning of the integration of systems, tries to keep systems self sustaining (like a Forest) as much as possible. (This last point is incredibly hard to develop, but is an aim.) Doug (Another Aussie like Bill Mollison.) Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Fwd: sticker
Published http://energy.saving.nu/stickers/ Hakan At 08:29 PM 1/25/2003 -0800, you wrote: Fossil fuel users: ... an evolutionary dead end. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Permaculture/Gangamama Mandala
Permaculture is a design system, not a farming system. .. The things I like most about Permaculture are... - It is inspirational - it's easy to enthuse people with the concept I'm presently building a 'Gangamama Mandala' in my back garden - 100m2 feeding 5. Find out all about it and view a picture at... www.mercuryin.es/milliontonneclub Go to 'organic gardening' from the home page. Happy days James PS. My next door neighbour, a retired German Psychiatrist, has this to say about gardening... If you want to be happy for a day, take Heroin. If you want to be happy for a year, take a wife. If you want to be happy for life, take up gardening. ( It's all right, I've already brought him to task about the 'wife' bit) -- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] bubble drying- big correction
- Original Message - From: girl mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip Like I said I haven't done this qualitatively before- so I don't know if the amount of water sufficient to form haze in the fuel is a sufficient mass of water for me to weigh on a .1g sensitivity scale. any ideas on what is the weight of the water if it is present at for instance 1200 ppm in a 100 ml sample of biodiesel? Mark snip 1200ppm in 100ml is 12/1,000,000ml ie.0.12ml, which will be equivalent to the smallest unit of sensativity on your ballance, very difficult to measure accurately. If you do try this use as light a containor for the BD as possible (beaker would be good). Also try to use a larger volume of BD up to the capacity of your scales in order to improve the accuracy. Regards Paul Gobert, Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Composting Glycerine?
Mark - very interesting side issue - urban and peri urban agriculture. Should food be grown in cities with high levels of air pollution that precipitates onto the plantsor perhaps we should think also in terms of growing fuel instead (mustard, sunflowers, etc.) in these urban and periurban spaces, and grow th food where the air is already cleaner. Over time, the urban area itself could perhaps grown more renewable oil fuel, use the presscake as fertilizer, clean up sites with mustard (phytoremediation), use mustard presscake pellets as natural pesticide...and use the biofuels to also burn in the diesels of course, cleaning up the air. Sorry about the run on sentence! Ed This is certainly a valid concern. First, the more green (leaf-area) a city has, the cleaner the air - plants definitely have this effect. So grow more plants, green every available space, and particularly with roof gardens (they save huge amounts of energy). That also makes for a much more pleasant city, and it can easily be made to have a knock-on effect (ie to more pedestrianization - yuk, what a word!). I've talked a bit before about urban planting schemes focusing on biofuel plants rather than pretties, with the utility fleets the prime market - I think this has a lot of potential. As far as air-pollution and city food are concerned, first (also said before), an enormous amount of food is produced worldwide in city farms, often in very polluted cities. It's mostly organically grown, using city wastes (composted, or fed to a pig or chickens and the manure composted), and it has a radical effect on waste disposal problems, which might not be manageable in some or many cities without the city farms (and yet city farmers are often harassed by city hall, rather than aided and abetted). So, for a start, these people are eating organically raised food from healthy soil (healthy soil life, that is, the soil food web); it will have good mineral content and good protein synthesis, which the alternative, chemically-grown industrial food, will probably not have (if they can even afford to buy it). It follows that their nutritional status will enable them to resist pollution better. Two immediate types of pollution (as well as all the other types): in the city food, soil and plant pollution derived from the polluted air; in the industrial-food alternative, pesticide pollution, which is rather more severe than generally acknowledged, especially in 3rd World countries, but that's so in all countries (see recent studies in the UK, for instance). I'd go for the city food - the food is better, it will help my resistance, and the pollution may be less severe. There's another factor. A series of tests was conducted in Britain in the 80s with composting, comparing lead pollution of plants grown in heavily composted plots and in control plots without compost, both in fairly secluded urban areas and in areas that were heavily exposed to nearby traffic pollution. The experiment wasn't finalized for various reasons, but the results were interesting just the same - the heavily composted plots seemed to allow both the soil-life and the plants to buffer the pollution, the indications were that it resulted in significantly less pollutants in the plants. That makes sense, for a number of reasons. That was in the bad old days of lead. We're still in the bad old days of far too many other things, some of them maybe worse than lead. Still, I'd say that city food is only a no-no in the very worst areas. Please note, though, that compost means thermophilic aerobic compost, not a smelly mess of putrified garbage. It's properly made, it gets hot (60 deg C plus - 140 deg F) and stays that way for a couple of weeks, it's been turned so that all of it has been through the heat. Either that, or vermicompost (with red worms). If you want to know how it's done, start here: http://journeytoforever.org/compost.html Composting Last, with glycerine, or rather glycerine/soap/catalyst, if you mix it with enough browns (dry stuff) to get the moisture content and aeration right, and don't use too much, so your compost gets hot and works as it should, the pH won't matter much, it will adjust and the finished compost should emerge at pH 6.5 or so. Best Keith On Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 10:29 AM, girl mark wrote: a lot of people I know who do this are actually non-gardeners (I would poison myself if I ate what I could grow with the air pollution at my house!), so the composting is just a disposal method, or a way for keeping food scraps (and glycerine that you would add to such a pile) out of the landfill. I've seen a few of biodieselers who had a 'dedicated' glycerine compost pile- it doesn't take much space. Neutralizing seems like a good idea, I almost wrote something to that effect in that post. By the time you do the neutralizing the glycerine, though, it seems like such a useful
Re: [biofuel] Fwd: Elsbett (long)
Hi Craig Keith, Please do. I feel sorta badly about promoting the Elsbett when Ed and Charlie are making such good kits, but the Elsbett is of a higher order - truly something that allows Granny to drive your car (or her car) on SVO - just tell her she can fuel up with dinodiesel if she runs out of SVO on the road. But are you promoting it, Craig? I didn't get that impression, I thought it was a useful report on a technology we hear a lot about but not nearly enough from actual users, surely of general interest. Also I don't think it's reached an either/or stage yet, of promoting one system necessarily at the expense of others. I think there's room for all in such a fast-growing market, and indeed a need for all. But your point about Granny is a very good one, I think it applies to most people other than enthusiasts. I'm hoping that widespread SVO use worldwide will persuade the manufacturers to invest in true multi-fuel diesels, which is what the Elsbett system gives you, because until then Granny and a few billion others just aren't going to do it. That leaves the two-tank systems as a transitional technology, but still with a good future because all those older diesels are going to last for decades. I think Ed has said something like this in the past - please correct me if I'm wrong, Ed. Glad to hear you're all moved - it was strange having you gone. Was it?? Gosh. Thanks Craig. snip Good luck getting settled in. Hassles! But it bodes well I think. Regards Keith Craig Keith Addison wrote: I hope you don't mind if I cross-post this Craig - it seems to be travelling quite well! (The message as well as the Merc.) Best Keith To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: craig reece [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:33:02 -0800 Subject: Elsbett (long) (was Re: [vegoil-diesel] Suitable Injectors, glowplugs fitted to Mercedes Here's a little writeup I did about the Elsbett kit I installed on an snip Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] WVO storage
NeilUSA wrote: Once WVO cools down, micro-organisms I understand set about the task of consuming the oil turning it rancid in as little as a month. It varies very widely. I've had some very over-cooked oil that lasted more than a year, but I dewatered it first. I think that's the best prevention, the water content seems to be the most critical factor. Can the WVO be stored for longer by first filtering it to say 10 micron and then storing it in a heated tank? Why heated? Heat always accelerates microbial action. Keeping it cool or cold would be better, and airtight. The heat applied during the dewatering process will sterilize it (boiling it dry) or at least pasteurize it effectively (heating to 60 deg C for 15 minutes and settling) and if you seal it straight away it should last quite well. certainly much longer than a month. What would the temperature need to be? I assume if too hot that the oil may breakdown; so, there might be a range to aim for. It will break down anyway. Two things can happen - one, microbial decomposition, two, oxidization. Water content accelerates both, and both lead to the release of free fatty acids, not good for motors when using SVO, and beyond a certain point you can't make biodiesel out of it either, or at least not easily. Best Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] WVO additives
NeilUSA wrote: According to the archives pertaining to the TDI-SVO controversy: Is this in the archives? There are similar things in the archives, but I think this is from here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_TDI.html The TDI-SVO controversy Anyway... *** It is possible to preheat the oil up to 150 deg C where it attains the same viscosity as the diesel oil. Atomisation tests showed that at 150 deg C the performance of the rapeseed oil are comparable with that of the diesel oil. The ACREVO study found that the temperature could be reduced by adding ethanol: It has been established that an addition of 9% of ethyl alcohol (95%) brings a great benefit regarding the pre-heating oil temperature. In fact, the presence of alcohol allows a reduction in the inlet oil temperature from 150 deg C to 80 deg C. Moreover, the combustion of the emulsion produces less soot and, at the exhaust, the amount is almost one half less than that produced by the combustion of rapeseed oil (almost 40% less soot than diesel fuel). But we haven't yet heard of anyone using an ethanol additive with two-tank heated SVO systems on a DI diesel. There has been some discussion of thinning the oil with white spirit, which can mean different things in different places, but it seems inconclusive. *** What is meant by white spirit; is that anything like moon shine? Nothing like moonshine. Moonshine is illicit booze. White spirit is aka Mineral Spirit, Mineral Turpentine, Turpentine Substitute, etc. http://www.inchem.org/documents/hsg/hsg/hsg103.htm White spirit (HSG 103, 1996) What options are there for additives to improve performance at minimal costs? Purchase maybe 55 gal drums of denatured ethanol or some other form of solvent that could be mixed in tanks of SVO/WVO? I understand methanol in the fuel causes too many problems to be used yet isn't this used at race tracks? Special motors proofed against corrosion. Maybe something else or maybe run a small still to get pure ethanol? You can't get pure ethanol from distillation, slightly more than 95% max. But the remaining 5% (water) wouldn't matter in this case, according to the ACREVO report. There's much about home-brew fuel ethanol in the archives, at the ethanol section of Journey to Forever and in the Journey to Forever Biofuels library. Are other additives also recommended as most fuels contain a number of them for all sorts of better performance? There are all sorts of additives, but why tie yourself to something of dubious origin (and perhaps dubious claims, all too often) that you can't make yourself? ACREVO's 9% of 95% ethanol mix seems about the best thing on offer, and I'm very puzzled that we haven't had any reports of SVO folks trying it. Best Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Fwd: Elsbett (long)
Keith, My hope is that others - Greasel, Ed at Neoteric, other as-yet-unknown SVO kit makers - will come up with their own single-tank systems. Elsbett makes a great product, but until they have a better English-language website and much better phone and email tech support, and way way better instructions, they're not going to sell a lot of kits in the US and Canada. I'm with you - anything that furthers the spread of SVO/'WVO and biodiesel is, or should be, our primary purpose when it comes to this exciting technology. And making it more user-friendly is a big part of that. Craig You wrote: But are you promoting it, Craig? I didn't get that impression, I thought it was a useful report on a technology we hear a lot about but not nearly enough from actual users, surely of general interest. Also I don't think it's reached an either/or stage yet, of promoting one system necessarily at the expense of others. I think there's room for all in such a fast-growing market, and indeed a need for all. But your point about Granny is a very good one, I think it applies to most people other than enthusiasts. I'm hoping that widespread SVO use worldwide will persuade the manufacturers to invest in true multi-fuel diesels, which is what the Elsbett system gives you, because until then Granny and a few billion others just aren't going to do it. That leaves the two-tank systems as a transitional technology, but still with a good future because all those older diesels are going to last for decades. I think Ed has said something like this in the past - please correct me if I'm wrong, Ed. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Compost and pollution
I didn't mean to imply that just because I live in a city I wouldn't want to grow food. I have done a lot of that in the city. It just so happens that I now live in a particularly nasty area on the railroad tracks and every time the trains go by (once every 15 minutes it seems) a huge cloud of greasy and probably toxic dust drifts over everything in our front lot. I try not to think aobut the fact that I breathe it. We compost our kitchen scraps mostly to keep them out of the landfill, and will probably plant some decorative stuff with the result. The other lovely things in my immediate neighborhood are the city dump, the freeway, and (also right across the tracks) a compound of old Industrial Revolution-style heavy industries- metal forges making mining equipment mostly. All of this stuff is within three blocks of my house, and it's an area famous for worst air quality in Berkeley. For those who think that I'm nuts for living here (you're right) there's also a day care on the next block over and there's also the little extra nugget of that the city built a huge soccer field right across the tracks from the dump, so kids come to practice sports daily right in the middle of that air pollution. anyway this is an extreme pollution situation- I know that people sometimes assume that the city is too polluted to grow food, but it is not the case in general. And as Keith says there have been lots of studies on proper composting helping ameliorate pollution. When I lived in downtown Oakland a couple of years ago (at a house called the Church of Everlasting Freeway Noise, this time we lived directly across the street from the freeway, I seem to have kind of a problem with finding clean air in this otherwise very clean and green East Bay), we grew a bunch of food and were concerned with pollution, both from the freeway and from the soil at our house. We decided that certain plants were slightly safer than others in this situation- my permaculture guru roommate and others say that plants don't take up toxins into their fruit as much as their roots of leaves- so we grew tomatoes for instance. I don't know how much this protected us from airborne pollution but it should have kept us slightly safer from anything in the soil. I also completely rebuilt the soil, hauling in compost from elsewhere, and tried to do container gardening as much as possible, using clean soil. mark At 03:06 AM 1/27/2003 +0900, you wrote: Mark - very interesting side issue - urban and peri urban agriculture. Should food be grown in cities with high levels of air pollution that precipitates onto the plantsor perhaps we should think also in terms of growing fuel instead (mustard, sunflowers, etc.) in these urban and periurban spaces, and grow th food where the air is already cleaner. Over time, the urban area itself could perhaps grown more renewable oil fuel, use the presscake as fertilizer, clean up sites with mustard (phytoremediation), use mustard presscake pellets as natural pesticide...and use the biofuels to also burn in the diesels of course, cleaning up the air. Sorry about the run on sentence! Ed T [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] WVO storage
Also, keep it in the dark. Light accelerates decomposition, I understand. Edward Beggs Neoteric Biofuels Inc. Home of G3 SVO systems and VEG-Therm 12/24V vegoil heaters http://www.biofuels.ca On Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 10:06 AM, Keith Addison wrote: NeilUSA wrote: Once WVO cools down, micro-organisms I understand set about the task of consuming the oil turning it rancid in as little as a month. It varies very widely. I've had some very over-cooked oil that lasted more than a year, but I dewatered it first. I think that's the best prevention, the water content seems to be the most critical factor. Can the WVO be stored for longer by first filtering it to say 10 micron and then storing it in a heated tank? Why heated? Heat always accelerates microbial action. Keeping it cool or cold would be better, and airtight. The heat applied during the dewatering process will sterilize it (boiling it dry) or at least pasteurize it effectively (heating to 60 deg C for 15 minutes and settling) and if you seal it straight away it should last quite well. certainly much longer than a month. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Fwd: Elsbett (long)
Steve, You wrote: We have fooled around with single tank solutions, but found them unreliable in cold usa climates. the two tank system gives the best of both worlds. biodiesel in the factory tank, and vegetable oil in the second, easy to install, tank. Steve Spence I agree that a single-tank system may not work in very cold climates. There are a couple of ways to deal with this: 1. Install something in the tank for heating - I'd recommend the Webb HotSTK http://www.webb-sales.com/product_fueltank.htm with Earl's or Aeroquip stainless braid-protected hose leading to and from it - or very carefully-routed Gates or Goodyear heater hose - to which you can bundle your fuel supply and return lines, thus avoiding the sometimes problematic hose-in-hose. Or use Greasel's Triple bypass hose-on-hose http://www.greasel.com/and bundle a return line to it - (I'm not a fan of the looped-to-injection pump setup.) 2. Run a mix of biodiesel and WVO/SVO when temps drop - or mix in some dinodiesel if you don't have any biodiesel. 3. Install a Holley Blue electric fuel pump just ahead of the tank - either in conjunction with the HotSTK, or alone: http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=search.asp%3FType%3Dbysummitpart%26Part%3DHLY-12-802-1%26Search.x%3D1%26SearchType%3DBoth (Greasel's website points out that the Holley Blue pump, which Summit sells for just under $100, can be found on eBay for about $45 rebuilt - and I bought one off eBay for that price a couple of weeks ago.) The Holley Blue pumps are used by racers for pumping hot 90W gear oil to external coolers, so they do fine with hot oil, and with thick oil. I believe you've used aux. 12V fuel pumps with VW Tdi's to take the strain off the stock lift pump - this is the same idea, only used to pull cold oil from the tank. 4. Install Neoteric's VEG-Therm 12V inline fuel heater (www.biofuels.ca in the line from the tank - to heat up the cold oil in the lines and help in cold starts on WVO. I personally wouldn't attempt a DIY single-tank system without also incorporating hotter glowplugs that are somehow left on longer, and ideally you'd have injectors optimized for WVO like Elsbett has done. And I know someone who's done a couple of conversions using Elsbett-supplied glowplugs (with a manual glowplug controller - but you could use a turbo timer or similar device as well to leave the 'plugs on longer than normal) and modified injectors from Elsbett, *plus* a VEG-Therm installed in the injector spillover lines that are plumbed in an endless loop - I assume with some sort of small inline fuel pump to move the fuel around - so that the injectors are continually filled with heated WVO - and with the return line from the injection pump returning to the tank per stock. I assume he turns on the VEG-Therm prior to starting the engine. He's also using some kind of coolant-fuel heat exchanger and/or a heated fuel filter. All of this is admittedly more trouble to source and install than a commercial two-tank kit like Greasel's or Neoteric's (or like the way overpriced, in opinion Greasecar kit - it's $850, and the Elsbett's only $870 including shipping from Germany!) - but the user-friendliness of a single-tank system once it's installed - assuming it works as well as the Elsbett does in warmer climates - is a big plus for those not wishing to deal with two fuels and switches. And then of course there's the economic advantage of being able to run on free fuel all the time - no need to buy biodiesel or dinodiesel - unless you're on a roadtrip and have run out of WVO in both your tank and any fuel cans you've carried (and don't want to hassle hitting up restaurants for fryer oil) in which case you can just buy some dinodiesel - or biodiesel, if you can find any. Or - bite the bullet, and head to Costco for some bulk soy oil if you can afford to be green at that price. Craig Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: bumper stickers- let's make 'em! :)
On Sat, 25 Jan 2003 02:45:31 +0100, you wrote: Hi, Suggestions at, http://energy.saving.nu/stickers/ Hakan You've been very industrious. I would suggest for the Californian one you add the word Real (e.g. Real Californians Use Biofuel). I sort of like the Supply and Demand Biofuels Now! one and I think The Support your local Economy one would be ok if you got rid of the word instead (i.e., just Use Biofuels is probably ok, although I understand the word instead relates to the picture). I can see some that I'd consider putting on my vehicle. Of course, one thing that comes up, since this is sort of about marketing and getting a message across quickly and the difficulty of staying with what you want to say, is that we all have somewhat different ideas or agendas, so common ground is not always possible. But in any case I see some that I'd consider. I wonder if they'd be easy to print out as they are, or if they'd come out better to have some online place charge a fee, one could send them a picture, and they could send one sticker? I think that was the problem I ran into before... you had to buy a minimum of several hundred, and since these have color they'd be even more. But I have a cruddy printer at home, so that affects my ability to project doing these myself. I like the way it worked with putting the URL on the stickers. It gives it a personal touch, where one could see it and have an idea of what's up. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Fwd: Elsbett (long)
We have fooled around with single tank solutions, but found them unreliable in cold usa climates. the two tank system gives the best of both worlds. biodiesel in the factory tank, and vegetable oil in the second, easy to install, tank. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: craigreece [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 1:37 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Fwd: Elsbett (long) Keith, My hope is that others - Greasel, Ed at Neoteric, other as-yet-unknown SVO kit makers - will come up with their own single-tank systems. Elsbett makes a great product, but until they have a better English-language website and much better phone and email tech support, and way way better instructions, they're not going to sell a lot of kits in the US and Canada. I'm with you - anything that furthers the spread of SVO/'WVO and biodiesel is, or should be, our primary purpose when it comes to this exciting technology. And making it more user-friendly is a big part of that. Craig You wrote: But are you promoting it, Craig? I didn't get that impression, I thought it was a useful report on a technology we hear a lot about but not nearly enough from actual users, surely of general interest. Also I don't think it's reached an either/or stage yet, of promoting one system necessarily at the expense of others. I think there's room for all in such a fast-growing market, and indeed a need for all. But your point about Granny is a very good one, I think it applies to most people other than enthusiasts. I'm hoping that widespread SVO use worldwide will persuade the manufacturers to invest in true multi-fuel diesels, which is what the Elsbett system gives you, because until then Granny and a few billion others just aren't going to do it. That leaves the two-tank systems as a transitional technology, but still with a good future because all those older diesels are going to last for decades. I think Ed has said something like this in the past - please correct me if I'm wrong, Ed. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: californians 50%
On Sun, 26 Jan 2003 09:14:02 +0100, you wrote: Hi MM, Look at, http://california.energy.saving.nu/ California has about 12% of U.S. population (33 million out of 272 million as of 1999 Almanac Figures), not the nearly 20% that you have in your statement at that top. Even accounting for statistical messups associated with illegal immigration making the numbers hard to figure out, I don't think it would come out to nearly 20% (maybe I'm wrong). Your other research that I've glanced at looks very in-depth, so I'm sure you had attention to accuracy. I'd have to give some thought as to the issues more in-depth, but it's clear that you've given a lot of attention to the matter. especially, http://energy.saving.nu/california/victim.shtml and http://peakdemand.energy.saving.nu/ http://fastfixes.energy.saving.nu/ and you will find some data. It is quite interesting and you can see what I was pointing out earlier. Hakan At 11:49 PM 1/25/2003 -0800, you wrote: You know, while it may be true that Californians have practiced and studied some good conservation principles, I also think David has a point. Back when I was taking some hard look at America's overall energy usage, home heating oil is a very significant part of that usage. Sometimes the statisticians will break out home heating oil from other statistics because it can tend to skew our understanding. Home heating oil is, I think, not as important in some parts of the country. We do have heating and cooling needs here in San Diego, but it is somewhat a matter of degree and location. By the ocean, it is cooler and one doesn't need A/C as much. Further inland A/C could be more important, it can get *very* hot in some areas, but it is dry here and not like some of the more humid extreme-heat situations. As to energy needs during cool periods, it is important to have heat, but obviously not as important nor as demanding on the energy supply as in a climate that often goes well below freezing, such as one finds in other parts of the country. On Fri, 24 Jan 2003 01:16:48 +0100, you wrote: Hi David, The fact is that California during many years have a very active program for saving of energy. This is the reason, because if you look at other states in US, with similar climate conditions, they are at average or above average. Of course, a lot is AC in those states, very much offices. If you look at statistics over the years and growth, you can clearly see that it is man made savings. California is the state that is and has been the most active state in US, when it comes to energy conservation and pollution. We had many exchange students and visiting professors from California in the Swedish universities. Still the Californian use twice as much energy as the average Swede. But they are best in the US after Hawaii, which is definitely determined by the climate. Hakan At 06:55 PM 1/23/2003 -0500, you wrote: Re: Californians 50% I don't want to step on a good thing, but is it 50% because of the climate, or 50% because Californians are different or more energy conscious? My gfather lives in San Diego. He almost never has to turn the heat on, ever. He only uses AC on the hotest of days.. perhaps 5 days if that. Contrast that to my coast, and its cold cold cold in the winter.. and hot and muggy in the summer where you might leave the AC in the car on while you tkae a shower and get ready for your date..lest you get all sweaty before you AC can cool your car. not everyone owns a garage So i dont really like the 50% one.. on the other hand.. THIS ONE http://energy.saving.nu/biofuel-sticker-3.jpg is absolutely hilarious. and gives you the secondary point of committing suicide on your dependence on the pump. funny.. :) Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
[biofuel] Craig/ Elsbett/Neoteric G3/Others
On Sunday, January 26, 2003, at 10:06 AM, Keith Addison wrote: Hi Craig Keith, Please do. I feel sorta badly about promoting the Elsbett when Ed and Charlie are making such good kits, but the Elsbett is of a higher order - truly something that allows Granny to drive your car (or her car) on SVO - just tell her she can fuel up with dinodiesel if she runs out of SVO on the road. But are you promoting it, Craig? I didn't get that impression, I thought it was a useful report on a technology we hear a lot about but not nearly enough from actual users, surely of general interest. Also I don't think it's reached an either/or stage yet, of promoting one system necessarily at the expense of others. I think there's room for all in such a fast-growing market, and indeed a need for all. But your point about Granny is a very good one, I think it applies to most people other than enthusiasts. I'm hoping that widespread SVO use worldwide will persuade the manufacturers to invest in true multi-fuel diesels, which is what the Elsbett system gives you, because until then Granny and a few billion others just aren't going to do it. That leaves the two-tank systems as a transitional technology, but still with a good future because all those older diesels are going to last for decades. I think Ed has said something like this in the past - please correct me if I'm wrong, Ed. Keith: I think that the Elsbett system is probably best for non-Lucas, and for dedicated SVO, (new oil) probably rapeseed oil, use. SVO has better cold weather properties and is more consistent in its properties (viscosity, acidity). WVO is, as we know, far more variable, and could be more of a problem for leaving in the injection pump (for cold starting and for corrosion reasons) and could lead to operational and long term problems more easily in a single-tank system. This is just my opinion, of course. The Elsbett system is good for those people/areas where the price of fuel allows for a fairly quick payback on the investment, and where new vegoil is competitive against diesel prices. It's neat and tidy, well designed, invisible to the user, etc. -- Then there is our kit which is low cost (fast payback), easy to install, and works well on SVO and much WVO (as thick as gravy), removes the vegoil from the system at shutdown, etc. - so it has cost, installation, and technical advantages in some ways. It requires only the use of one toggle switch at start and stop - suitable for use by anyone who can remember their driver's license, and has the mental acuity to turn on their headlights when it is dark, and use wipers when it rains - in the operational sense at least...filtering being another issue, the same as with any system. Let say Granny runs new oil, no need for shop filtering, collecting, and more-frequent-than-diesel SVO filter changes which certainly do require the ability to use a screwdriver and a ziplock bag and carry some paper towels. New oil will go through a filter a long time - maybe not as long as diesel, but quite a lot longer than WVO. Anyway, overall, a good compromise system at low cost. As with Elsbett, in colder weather, the fuel can be blended, but the temperature at which you need to do this is considerably lower, for a given oil, than it would be for single-tank. There is also much scope for additional automation, adaptation, hose-on-hose, hose-in-hose (properly engineered versions ), in-tank loop, coarser filter, etc. So, lots of variations are possible using our basic kit as a starting point and adding things to it. We might do more of that as optional items as time goes along. --- Then there are the systems that allow use of grease, for those who wish to or need to have some sort of full heated path system due to the oil/grease used or long, very cold winters (or both) etc. So, indeed, something for all, depending on budget and circumstances. Ed http://www.biofuels.ca Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: [evworld] Re: bumper stickers- let's make 'em! :)
Or the banner Mark saw at the antiwar march in SF - Real Men don't Get Gas. But it sorta leaves the women out. (But of course women don't get gas anyway, as we all know.) Craig James Slayden wrote: Cool!! Like Real Californians Eat x. I really like that one. Thanks for the suggestion Murdoch!! Hey Hakan, you might also want to include the SVO'rs out there, Real Californian's Use SVO or Real Californian's Use WVO (acroynm's could be expanded). James Slayden On Sun, 26 Jan 2003, murdoch wrote: On Sat, 25 Jan 2003 02:45:31 +0100, you wrote: Hi, Suggestions at, http://energy.saving.nu/stickers/ Hakan You've been very industrious. I would suggest for the Californian one you add the word Real (e.g. Real Californians Use Biofuel). I sort of like the Supply and Demand Biofuels Now! one and I think The Support your local Economy one would be ok if you got rid of the word instead (i.e., just Use Biofuels is probably ok, although I understand the word instead relates to the picture). I can see some that I'd consider putting on my vehicle. Of course, one thing that comes up, since this is sort of about marketing and getting a message across quickly and the difficulty of staying with what you want to say, is that we all have somewhat different ideas or agendas, so common ground is not always possible. But in any case I see some that I'd consider. I wonder if they'd be easy to print out as they are, or if they'd come out better to have some online place charge a fee, one could send them a picture, and they could send one sticker? I think that was the problem I ran into before... you had to buy a minimum of several hundred, and since these have color they'd be even more. But I have a cruddy printer at home, so that affects my ability to project doing these myself. I like the way it worked with putting the URL on the stickers. It gives it a personal touch, where one could see it and have an idea of what's up. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT HGTV Dream Home Giveaway To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [HGTV Dream Home Giveaway] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: californians 50%
MM, Thank you, I corrected the percentage. I used the number that somebody said, but did not check it sufficiently. You are right and it fit also better with the other data, now when I checked it. Maybe my population number included Canada as North America, same mistake as when many talks about Europe. Hakan At 04:47 PM 1/26/2003 -0800, you wrote: On Sun, 26 Jan 2003 09:14:02 +0100, you wrote: Hi MM, Look at, http://california.energy.saving.nu/ California has about 12% of U.S. population (33 million out of 272 million as of 1999 Almanac Figures), not the nearly 20% that you have in your statement at that top. Even accounting for statistical messups associated with illegal immigration making the numbers hard to figure out, I don't think it would come out to nearly 20% (maybe I'm wrong). Your other research that I've glanced at looks very in-depth, so I'm sure you had attention to accuracy. I'd have to give some thought as to the issues more in-depth, but it's clear that you've given a lot of attention to the matter. especially, http://energy.saving.nu/california/victim.shtml and http://peakdemand.energy.saving.nu/ http://fastfixes.energy.saving.nu/ and you will find some data. It is quite interesting and you can see what I was pointing out earlier. Hakan At 11:49 PM 1/25/2003 -0800, you wrote: You know, while it may be true that Californians have practiced and studied some good conservation principles, I also think David has a point. Back when I was taking some hard look at America's overall energy usage, home heating oil is a very significant part of that usage. Sometimes the statisticians will break out home heating oil from other statistics because it can tend to skew our understanding. Home heating oil is, I think, not as important in some parts of the country. We do have heating and cooling needs here in San Diego, but it is somewhat a matter of degree and location. By the ocean, it is cooler and one doesn't need A/C as much. Further inland A/C could be more important, it can get *very* hot in some areas, but it is dry here and not like some of the more humid extreme-heat situations. As to energy needs during cool periods, it is important to have heat, but obviously not as important nor as demanding on the energy supply as in a climate that often goes well below freezing, such as one finds in other parts of the country. On Fri, 24 Jan 2003 01:16:48 +0100, you wrote: Hi David, The fact is that California during many years have a very active program for saving of energy. This is the reason, because if you look at other states in US, with similar climate conditions, they are at average or above average. Of course, a lot is AC in those states, very much offices. If you look at statistics over the years and growth, you can clearly see that it is man made savings. California is the state that is and has been the most active state in US, when it comes to energy conservation and pollution. We had many exchange students and visiting professors from California in the Swedish universities. Still the Californian use twice as much energy as the average Swede. But they are best in the US after Hawaii, which is definitely determined by the climate. Hakan At 06:55 PM 1/23/2003 -0500, you wrote: Re: Californians 50% I don't want to step on a good thing, but is it 50% because of the climate, or 50% because Californians are different or more energy conscious? My gfather lives in San Diego. He almost never has to turn the heat on, ever. He only uses AC on the hotest of days.. perhaps 5 days if that. Contrast that to my coast, and its cold cold cold in the winter.. and hot and muggy in the summer where you might leave the AC in the car on while you tkae a shower and get ready for your date..lest you get all sweaty before you AC can cool your car. not everyone owns a garage So i dont really like the 50% one.. on the other hand.. THIS ONE http://energy.saving.nu/biofuel-sticker-3.jpg is absolutely hilarious. and gives you the secondary point of committing suicide on your dependence on the pump. funny.. :) Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
the plot thickens was Re: [biofuel] bubble drying- big correction
Continuing in the overly dramatic subject line for this thread vein... Well I went to weigh and then to dry and reweigh the samples I had, and found another annoying and very odd thing. Here's a recap: a few weeks ago when I started experimenting with 'bubbledrying', I had taken some freshly washed fuel that was somewhat hazy, and I had put a hazy sample into a tightly sealed jar, then 'bubbledried' the rest of the fuel until it cleared up all the haze and the fuel was brightly crystal clear. We normally assume that clear (WASHED) fuel is a sign that the fuel has released all of the water that might have been dissolved in it from the washing process. I then put a sample of that presumably 'dried' and clear fuel into a similar size jar with about the same amount of air space as the first sample had gotten, and sealed it tightly as well. I thought it would be good to have the samples to show people the difference between dried and undried fuel. but within about two weeks I found that both samples gradually got hazy again, and this was at a fairly warm room temperature (cold will make fuel haze appear for various reasons, but that's not what was happening here) SO I was going to take both of the now-identical-looking samples, weigh them, then heat them to drive off any water, and then reweigh them to see whether one (which had previously been clear but then re-hazed) actually had less water content. It wasn't going to be a very accurate test because I only had a small sample of each (about 200 ml each). I couldn't do a bigger test because my most recent batch of washed fuel had 'cleared' on it's own in two days (in a sealed drum, at that) without any bubbledrying and I didnt' have any hazy fuel left. the other factors here are that the stuff in the sample jars was probably not the best-washed fuel I've produced, and that I'm boring you all with this cause I'm trying to figure out if the haze clearing experienced in bubble drying is actually 'drying', or this clearing is actually some kind of chemical reaction between something in the air and something in biodiesel (and guessing that whatever that reaction is, it's reversible). ANyway I went to do that weighing bit today, and found another odd thing: one -but only one- of the samples had gone crystal clear (which is pretty normal for washed fuel that sits for a few weeks like this one had) Unfortunately I never labeled which was which (since originally it was 'obvious' at the time which was hazy and which was clear), so I don't know if it was the bubbledried one or the normally settled one. Weird stuff, any thoughts? I will continue with this next time I wash some fuel to the same 'specs' and have some that's hazy... It occurred to me that an extra night of bubbledrying exposed the biodiesel to an extra night of cold and that some kind of tallow esters precipitation happened that the main tank of drying fuel experienced but that the first sealed sample did not. But I had this clearing and then gradual hazing happen twice now with different samples, and one of the times the hazy sample jar had sat outside along with the vat of stuff that was bubbledrying, and both got similarly cold. Don't know if it is at all relevant to the current clearing (at different rates) that I;m seeing in the samples. Below are a couple of replies I got on biofuel and biofuels-biz. One of them is relevant here and the other is just about the measurement I was trying to do today... Mark from David Teal: To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] bubble drying- big correction Mark, When you raised the bubble-dry issue a few weeks back, I wasn't convinced that the main action was necessarily water evaporation. I tend to store samples of biodiesel in capped 2 litre Dr. Pepper style plastic bottles, and had noticed that if an air space is left above the liquid, it always reduces in volume, partially collapsing the bottle. My surmise has been that a oxidation process was at work, where the oxidation products are liquid, and the oxygen is removed from the air. I have also noted that if the sample strarted hazy, it would clear at the same time, not always with a preciptated residue of water or anything else. It would be interesting to test for oxygen depletion in the air pocket. I did try a rudimentary test to extinguish a burning taper (like we did at school chemistry lessons), but this was not conclusive. David T. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ from Paul Gobert - we were discussing measuring water content in biodiesel by weighing, then
