Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
...I just put a plug on the exit hole of the tray of my window style ac unit and the fan starts to splash and spray water on the condenser. Brilliant! I like it. -Redler Juan Boveda wrote: Hello Mike Redler. I did have the same idea by observing big air conditioner units that uses a spray of water on a cooling tower for evaporation of the hot water and recycle the fresh water for cooling the hot side heat exchanger or condenser. In my home air conditioner, I just put a plug on the exit hole of the tray of my window style ac unit and the fan starts to splash and spray water on the condenser. Humidity here during summer time seldom drops from 50% and it usually is around 70% if it is not raining. I send the condensed water from the evaporator to be used in hot condenser, the spray was produced by the ac fan usually this happened after ? hour of working time of the ac unit. If you need more water from start and if your house has running water with enough pressure it is just as simple as put a perforated hose on top of the condenser and adjust the water flow as to almost all the water is evaporated. Just let the water coming out the ac unit to be not more than a few drops per minute. It is better not to waste a lot of running water. It is much efficient to use Water Evaporation. If my memory does not fool me (here I do not have the water humidity psychometric chart) the evaporation of water needs about 520 Kilocalories/Kg of heat to evaporated 1 Kg of water, this means as cooling effect. Consider that the heat capacity of only 1 Kilocalorie for each Kg of water in the change of 1 degree Celsius. Best Regards. Juan Paraguay ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
You could also take a look at these: http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/proceedings/01/carbon_seq/5a4.pdf http://www.greenfuelonline.com/news/IECR.pdf They're listed under Resources on the same Green Car Congress page. Todd Swearingen Kirk McLoren wrote: So where are these guys published? Such a cell line should be in the literature. Kirk */Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Southern Kaliforn-I-eh. By December's end, 2007. Plant is or has already been contracted upon and should be completed by then. Don't think it's quite yet proper to say what firm is financing it, at least not until they issue their first press release, which they may have already done for all I'm aware of. The 100,000 gallons is just an estimate projected upon the reasonably accepted value of 2,000 gpa from inoculated species in a horizontal acre. This plant will be growing vertically, permitting at least 50 x production capability. Will kinda' knock the socks off anything going. They'll just have to get the costs down to something affordable..., which will happen in short order. It's either that or biodiesel will be bottlenecked until hell freezes over with a an economically sustainable level of oilseed production (perhaps 5% at best of overall US demand) and consuming the vast majority of WVO supplies. It's the future or commercial biodiesel is plumb (horse droppings) out of luck. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \ Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006? :-) Keith Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie /* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
Only possible for a few? Roughly speaking, if you filled your (50 gallon?) tub once with cold city water, absorbed the heat in your small house or apartment by transferring it into the tub using a moderate size air conditioner (12000 to 15000 Btu/hr), I'm sure you wouldn't be causing a regional drought. Perhaps that water could be put to use for something else. Perhaps the water could be stored until used for something else. Granted, maintaining temperature would still need to be addressed. However, that wouldn't be the most costly part of the process and switching to a more conventional method for maintaining a comfortable temperature might still allow one to see a significant energy savings. As for a cool suit, I think the idea has merit. However, my dinner parties get smaller all the time after asking all my guests to "suit-up" instead of cooling the air around them (not to mention my closet space being lost from all those suits). :-) In all seriousness, I don't agree that this is only possible for a few and in some cases (like in nearby New York City) it might help save some lives. People are collapsing from heat exhaustion and the city is experiencing periodic blackouts from power usage (i.e. air conditioners). In an emergency situation, the water consumption would be the equivalent of everyone taking a bath at the same time (ah!). When I see fire hydrants being cracked open in urban neighborhoods to relieve people from the heat, I wonder what kind of strain it would put on the water supply. But, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. I'm still trying to figure out why (according to your previous post) sewers need to be good heat sinks. When everything is said and done, it's just an idea. Unproven and maybe impractical, this forum is the place to "think out loud" and see what happens with such ideas. - Redler Kirk McLoren wrote: Yes but using water like that certainly is only possible for a few. Most water systems are stressed already. The best method would be to use the latent heat of evaporation. It is important to know the relative humidity where you are. The "koolsuit" is a legitimate suggestion. 10 pounds of ice in a backpack with circulatory system for arms and legs is a viable low energy low impact system. 1 pound of water water will absorb 1 BTU when raised 1 degree F. If you need many BTU the volume becomes considerable. Just as using fluorescent instead of tungsten makes sense so does limiting cooling to a suit and mattress also make sense. We need to soften our impact on the world around us. Kirk Mike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Understood. But, why would I care if the sewer is a good heat sink? I suggested that the sewer be used as a way of discharging water after it had absorbed heat from inside the house (or apartment). I'm interested in finding a medium which is better than hot summer air for cooling the condenser and proposed that water, already cooled from being underground has the same benefit as geoexchange without the cost of digging a hole. - Redler Kirk McLoren wrote: Sewer lines are engineered for the load. Trust me they didnt install larger pipes so you can use them as a heat sink. The smaller the load the cheaper to refrigerate. A "koolsuit" would take maybe 300 watts. The rule of thumb in ac sizing is a ton per dozen occupants. Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Cell line? I don't follow. This is done with concentrators, fiber-optics and essentially hydroponics. There are no solar cells. You did look at the link that was offered, yes? http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/12/greenshift_lice.html Todd Swearingen Kirk McLoren wrote: So where are these guys published? Such a cell line should be in the literature. Kirk */Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Southern Kaliforn-I-eh. By December's end, 2007. Plant is or has already been contracted upon and should be completed by then. Don't think it's quite yet proper to say what firm is financing it, at least not until they issue their first press release, which they may have already done for all I'm aware of. The 100,000 gallons is just an estimate projected upon the reasonably accepted value of 2,000 gpa from inoculated species in a horizontal acre. This plant will be growing vertically, permitting at least 50 x production capability. Will kinda' knock the socks off anything going. They'll just have to get the costs down to something affordable..., which will happen in short order. It's either that or biodiesel will be bottlenecked until hell freezes over with a an economically sustainable level of oilseed production (perhaps 5% at best of overall US demand) and consuming the vast majority of WVO supplies. It's the future or commercial biodiesel is plumb (horse droppings) out of luck. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \ Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006? :-) Keith Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie /* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
50 gallons x 8 pound per gallon = 400 pounds. Since 1 BTU raises 1 pound 1 degree F we can put 400 BTU in the tub per degree F 12000/400 =30 degrees.So it seems a tub is good for 1 to 2 hours depending on inlet temperature. So if every household in NYC draws a bathtub every hour and dumps same what is the outcome? Couple this to the problem that the average window air conditioner is a capillary tube system and relies on condenser pressure to force the refrigerant through the capillary tube. Low hiside pressure means refrigerant flow is curtailed and our pump and two fans chug away but with 2/3 or less refrigerant flow. That doesnt help brown/black outs. Bottom line - Cant get there from here. Requires engineering for a different system. There are water cooled condensers in operation - but they were sold that way. Putting condensate water on the coil is a good assist. It is good for another reason, it is "rainwater" and wont eat the aluminum fins.One could design for lower electrical consumption. Larger heat exchangers are a logical start. Also is dehumidification needed? Need to know that. Reducing solar load is a good start as well. Any windows with exposure to direct sun? People at dinner parties can afford all the electricity they want. Sad but true. The suffering on subsistence income can profit from inexpensive fixes. A "koldvest" could be a lifesaver. Simple is elegant.KirkMike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Only possible for a few?Roughly speaking, if you filled your (50 gallon?) tub once with cold city water, absorbed the heat in your small house or apartment by transferring it into the tub using a moderate size air conditioner (12000 to 15000 Btu/hr), I'm sure you wouldn't be causing a regional drought. Perhaps that water could be put to use for something else. Perhaps the water could be stored until used for something else.Granted, maintaining temperature would still need to be addressed. However, that wouldn't be the most costly part of the process and switching to a more conventional method for maintaining a comfortable temperature might still allow one to see a significant energy savings.As for a cool suit, I think the idea has merit. However, my dinner parties get smaller all the time after asking all my guests to "suit-up" instead of cooling the air around them (not to mention my closet space being lost from all those suits). :-)In all seriousness, I don't agree that this is only possible for a few and in some cases (like in nearby New York City) it might help save some lives. People are collapsing from heat exhaustion and the city is experiencing periodic blackouts from power usage (i.e. air conditioners). In an emergency situation, the water consumption would be the equivalent of everyone taking a bath at the same time (ah!). When I see fire hydrants being cracked open in urban neighborhoods to relieve people from the heat, I wonder what kind of strain it would put on the water supply.But, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. I'm still trying to figure out why (according to your previous post) sewers need to be good heat sinks.When everything is said and done, it's just an idea. Unproven and maybe impractical, this forum is the place to "think out loud" and see what happens with such ideas.- RedlerKirk McLoren wrote: Yes but using water like that certainly is only possible for a few. Most water systems are stressed already. The best method would be to use the latent heat of evaporation. It is important to know the relative humidity where you are. The "koolsuit" is a legitimate suggestion. 10 pounds of ice in a backpack with circulatory system for arms and legs is a viable low energy low impact system. 1 pound of water water will absorb 1 BTU when raised 1 degree F. If you need many BTU the volume becomes considerable. Just as using fluorescent instead of tungsten makes sense so does limiting cooling to a suit and mattress also make sense. We need to soften our impact on the world around us.KirkMike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Understood. But, why would I care if the sewer is a good heat sink? I suggested that the sewer be used as a way of discharging water after it had absorbed heat from inside the house (or apartment).I'm interested in finding a medium which is better than hot summer air for cooling the condenser and proposed that water, already cooled from being underground has the same benefit as geoexchange without the cost of digging a hole.- RedlerKirk McLoren wrote: Sewer lines are engineered for the load. Trust me they didnt install larger pipes so you can use them as a heat sink. The smaller the load the cheaper to refrigerate. A "koolsuit" would take maybe 300 watts. The rule of thumb in ac sizing is a ton per dozen occupants.Kirk___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
first one doesnt display and 2nd one is discussion of scrubbing and algal growth. No reference to the vunderalgae that is an oilcrop.KirkAppal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You could also take a look at these:http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/proceedings/01/carbon_seq/5a4.pdfhttp://www.greenfuelonline.com/news/IECR.pdfThey're listed under "Resources" on the same Green Car Congress page.Todd SwearingenKirk McLoren wrote: So where are these guys published? Such a cell line should be in the literature. Kirk */Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Southern Kaliforn-I-eh. By December's end, 2007. Plant is or has already been contracted upon and should be completed by then. Don't think it's quite yet proper to say what firm is financing it, at least not until they issue their first press release, which they may have already done for all I'm aware of. The 100,000 gallons is just an estimate projected upon the reasonably accepted value of 2,000 gpa from inoculated species in a horizontal acre. This plant will be growing vertically, permitting at least 50 x production capability. Will kinda' knock the socks off anything going. They'll just have to get the costs down to something affordable..., which will happen in short order. It's either that or biodiesel will be bottlenecked until hell freezes over with a an economically sustainable level of oilseed production (perhaps 5% at best of overall US demand) and consuming the vast majority of WVO supplies. It's the future or commercial biodiesel is plumb (horse droppings) out of luck. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006? :-) Keith Kirk McLoren wrote:1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie /* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!?Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
cell line as in living cells. Algae usually are joined chains of single cells. They arent higher structures like leaves and stalks and flowers. They usually convert sunlight and nutrients into sugar and fiber. I dont know any that are oil producers like the seeds of higher plants. Are you sure oil isnt wishful thinking?KirkAppal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Cell line? I don't follow. This is done with concentrators, fiber-optics and essentially hydroponics. There are no solar cells.You did look at the link that was offered, yes?http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/12/greenshift_lice.htmlTodd SwearingenKirk McLoren wrote: So where are these guys published? Such a cell line should be in the literature. Kirk */Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Southern Kaliforn-I-eh. By December's end, 2007. Plant is or has already been contracted upon and should be completed by then. Don't think it's quite yet proper to say what firm is financing it, at least not until they issue their first press release, which they may have already done for all I'm aware of. The 100,000 gallons is just an estimate projected upon the reasonably accepted value of 2,000 gpa from inoculated species in a horizontal acre. This plant will be growing vertically, permitting at least 50 x production capability. Will kinda' knock the socks off anything going. They'll just have to get the costs down to something affordable..., which will happen in short order. It's either that or biodiesel will be bottlenecked until hell freezes over with a an economically sustainable level of oilseed production (perhaps 5% at best of overall US demand) and consuming the vast majority of WVO supplies. It's the future or commercial biodiesel is plumb (horse droppings) out of luck. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006? :-) Keith Kirk McLoren wrote:1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie /* wrote:WHAT!?!?!?!?!?Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
Re: [Biofuel] Using biodiesel in newer truck-cars
Great info Derick thank you. Derick Giorchino wrote: I have a 04 dodge with a Cummins and have been running it on b100 for 1 years after researching this to death. And finding nothing on bio in late models Cummins talks in circles about bio saying the jury is still out. Although they dont say not to use it they dont say its o.k. so I am doing my own research all is good with about 26000 miles in bio only. Good luck Derick From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Steve Barton Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:15 AM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Using biodiesel in newer truck-cars Hello to all I'm new to all of this and have read and studied the makeing of biodiesel and have planed out a plane to produce it as well But befor diving into to deep of water I have not found much info about runing home made biodiesel in newer engines. I have a 2005 chevy diesel truck with the 6.6lly engine in it. Any links on the net or info about problems that I might have running biodiesel that I have made myself in a newer computer controled diesels would be nice. Thanks for the help. Frist post to the list, Steve ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
any cell has a membrane which is comprised of a lipid bilayer, therefore anything alive makes lipids. Certain varieties do produce fairly lipid content. Here is a cite claiming 40% dry weight. http://www.energybulletin.net/1330.html Kirk McLoren wrote: cell line as in living cells. Algae usually are joined chains of single cells. They arent higher structures like leaves and stalks and flowers. They usually convert sunlight and nutrients into sugar and fiber. I dont know any that are oil producers like the seeds of higher plants. Are you sure oil isnt wishful thinking? Kirk */Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Cell line? I don't follow. This is done with concentrators, fiber-optics and essentially hydroponics. There are no solar cells. You did look at the link that was offered, yes? http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/12/greenshift_lice.html Todd Swearingen Kirk McLoren wrote: So where are these guys published? Such a cell line should be in the literature. Kirk */Appal Energy /* wrote: Southern Kaliforn-I-eh. By December's end, 2007. Plant is or has already been contracted upon and should be completed by then. Don't think it's quite yet proper to say what firm is financing it, at least not until they issue their first press release, which they may have already done for all I'm aware of. The 100,000 gallons is just an estimate projected upon the reasonably accepted value of 2,000 gpa from inoculated species in a horizontal acre. This plant will be growing vertically, permitting at least 50 x production capability. Will kinda' knock the socks off anything going. They'll just have to get the costs down to something affordable..., which will happen in short order. It's either that or biodiesel will be bottlenecked until hell freezes over with a an economically sustainable level of oilseed production (perhaps 5% at best of overall US demand) and consuming the vast majority of WVO supplies. It's the future or commercial biodiesel is plumb (horse droppings) out of luck. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \ Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006? :-) Keith Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie /* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new
Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
Hey Kirk; Ever slept on a waterbed that got unplugged and woken up at 4 am shivering? Cooling my beduh ...no thanks. Joe Kirk McLoren wrote: Yes but using water like that certainly is only possible for a few. Most water systems are stressed already. The best method would be to use the latent heat of evaporation. It is important to know the relative humidity where you are. The "koolsuit" is a legitimate suggestion. 10 pounds of ice in a backpack with circulatory system for arms and legs is a viable low energy low impact system. 1 pound of water water will absorb 1 BTU when raised 1 degree F. If you need many BTU the volume becomes considerable. Just as using fluorescent instead of tungsten makes sense so does limiting cooling to a suit and mattress also make sense. We need to soften our impact on the world around us. Kirk Mike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Understood. But, why would I care if the sewer is a good heat sink? I suggested that the sewer be used as a way of discharging water after it had absorbed heat from inside the house (or apartment). I'm interested in finding a medium which is better than hot summer air for cooling the condenser and proposed that water, already cooled from being underground has the same benefit as geoexchange without the cost of digging a hole. - Redler Kirk McLoren wrote: Sewer lines are engineered for the load. Trust me they didnt install larger pipes so you can use them as a heat sink. The smaller the load the cheaper to refrigerate. A "koolsuit" would take maybe 300 watts. The rule of thumb in ac sizing is a ton per dozen occupants. Kirk Mike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bob, Joe, et al Sure, that much I knew. But, what I meant by "on the cheap" was to use the existing infrastructure (i.e. existing, underground water lines) as the ground source instead of requiring a new hole to be dug. Sewer lines could be used as a conduit for sending heat out of the house (or apartment). Perhaps the heated water could be contained and used as domestic hot water for the laundry (for example). I know that there is at least one company in Florida that pumps heat from one's attic into the domestic hot water supply so, it's quite possible. Using city water and sewer lines as conduit for ground sourcing wouldn't be a closed loop and I'm not sure of the volume (cost) of water required for it to be effective. The part I like about it is the apparent low cost in implementing it. In areas of the city where digging a hole gets complicated, this might be an effective alternative. -Redler bob allen wrote: It's being done all over the country. It's called ground source heat pumps. the condenser uses the ground (more specifically water in it) as the heat sink. It is fairly simple set up if you have a well. If not a contractor Takes a back hoe and lays plastic pipe horizontally for hundreds of feet a couple of feet down.http://www.geoexchange.org/now if you mean is anybody "rolling their own" water cooled air condenser, I don't know.Mike Redler wrote: Hi everyone,As with many in this forum, I've been trying to stay cool today without switching on the AC. It's tempting but, so far I've resisted.I was standing under the shower head, thinking about what my air conditioner might be doing had it been turned on. Specifically, how the condenser responds to a difference in temperature and how that difference kinda sucks on an especially hot day.That lead me to a question. What would happen if you used cool city water to collect condenser heat? The warm water could then be sent down the drain and discarded.I'm just thinking out loud here and I wouldn't be at all surprised ifsomeone else tried this. If so, please speak up. I wouldn't want to reinvent the wheel here.I have absolutely no numbers to back up the viability of this idea but, I do know that water is a better conductor of heat than (dry) air and the difference in temperature (outside air temp - city water temp) can conceivably be 35+ degrees F.It's so damn hot, I'm thinking of dissecting an air conditioner or dehumidifier and adapting it to my bathtub right now, with a fan blowing the cool air into the hallway. Of course, if the energy savings were not substantial I'd be kind of annoyed at myself for not crunching the numbers first....any thoughts?-Redler ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
Hey Mike; A lot of energy goes in to cleaning city water and in this day and age where water is getting scarce using treated water for cooling is not too cool (pun) but as I said in my area it is illegal to do it and I suspect in other places too. Joe Mike Redler wrote: Understood. But, why would I care if the sewer is a good heat sink? I suggested that the sewer be used as a way of discharging water after it had absorbed heat from inside the house (or apartment). I'm interested in finding a medium which is better than hot summer air for cooling the condenser and proposed that water, already cooled from being underground has the same benefit as geoexchange without the cost of digging a hole. - Redler Kirk McLoren wrote: Sewer lines are engineered for the load. Trust me they didnt install larger pipes so you can use them as a heat sink. The smaller the load the cheaper to refrigerate. A "koolsuit" would take maybe 300 watts. The rule of thumb in ac sizing is a ton per dozen occupants. Kirk Mike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bob, Joe, et al Sure, that much I knew. But, what I meant by "on the cheap" was to use the existing infrastructure (i.e. existing, underground water lines) as the ground source instead of requiring a new hole to be dug. Sewer lines could be used as a conduit for sending heat out of the house (or apartment). Perhaps the heated water could be contained and used as domestic hot water for the laundry (for example). I know that there is at least one company in Florida that pumps heat from one's attic into the domestic hot water supply so, it's quite possible. Using city water and sewer lines as conduit for ground sourcing wouldn't be a closed loop and I'm not sure of the volume (cost) of water required for it to be effective. The part I like about it is the apparent low cost in implementing it. In areas of the city where digging a hole gets complicated, this might be an effective alternative. -Redler bob allen wrote: It's being done all over the country. It's called ground source heat pumps. the condenser uses the ground (more specifically water in it) as the heat sink. It is fairly simple set up if you have a well. If not a contractor Takes a back hoe and lays plastic pipe horizontally for hundreds of feet a couple of feet down.http://www.geoexchange.org/ now if you mean is anybody "rolling their own" water cooled air condenser, I don't know.Mike Redler wrote: Hi everyone,As with many in this forum, I've been trying to stay cool today without switching on the AC. It's tempting but, so far I've resisted.I was standing under the shower head, thinking about what my air conditioner might be doing had it been turned on. Specifically, how the condenser responds to a difference in temperature and how that difference kinda sucks on an especially hot day.That lead me to a question. What would happen if you used cool city water to collect condenser heat? The warm water could then be sent down the drain and discarded.I'm just thinking out loud here and I wouldn't be at all surprised ifsomeone else tried this. If so, please speak up. I wouldn't want to reinvent the wheel here.I have absolutely no numbers to back up the viability of this idea but, I do know that water is a better conductor of heat than (dry) air and the difference in temperature (outside air temp - city water temp) can conceivably be 35+ degrees F.It's so damn hot, I'm thinking of dissecting an air conditioner or dehumidifier and adapting it to my bathtub right now, with a fan blowing the cool air into the hallway. Of course, if the energy savings were not substantial I'd be kind of annoyed at myself for not crunching the numbers first....any thoughts?-Redler ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
If you had been in my house last week. The ac blew Friday night and Saturday we set a record high. A cold bed would have been marvelous.KirkJoe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Kirk;Ever slept on a waterbed that got unplugged and woken up at 4 am shivering? Cooling my beduh ...no thanks.JoeKirk McLoren wrote:Yes but using water like that certainly is only possible for a few. Most water systems are stressed already. The best method would be to use the latent heat of evaporation. It is important to know the relative humidity where you are. The "koolsuit" is a legitimate suggestion. 10 pounds of ice in a backpack with circulatory system for arms and legs is a viable low energy low impact system. 1 pound of water water will absorb 1 BTU when raised 1 degree F. If you need many BTU the volume becomes considerable. Just as using fluorescent instead of tungsten makes sense so does limiting cooling to a suit and mattress also make sense. We need to soften our impact on the world around us.KirkMike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Understood. But, why would I care if the sewer is a good heat sink? I suggested that the sewer be used as a way of discharging water after it had absorbed heat from inside the house (or apartment).I'm interested in finding a medium which is better than hot summer air for cooling the condenser and proposed that water, already cooled from being underground has the same benefit as geoexchange without the cost of digging a hole.- RedlerKirk McLoren wrote: Sewer lines are engineered for the load. Trust me they didnt install larger pipes so you can use them as a heat sink. The smaller the load the cheaper to refrigerate. A "koolsuit" would take maybe 300 watts. The rule of thumb in ac sizing is a ton per dozen occupants.KirkMike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bob, Joe, et alSure, that much I knew. But, what I meant by "on the cheap" was to use the existing infrastructure (i.e. existing, underground water lines) as the ground source instead of requiring a new hole to be dug. Sewer lines could be used as a conduit for sending heat out of the house (or apartment). Perhaps the heated water could be contained and used as domestic hot water for the laundry (for example). I know that there is at least one company in Florida that pumps heat from one's attic into the domestic hot water supply so, it's quite possible.Using city water and sewer lines as conduit for ground sourcing wouldn't be a closed loop and I'm not sure of the volume (cost) of water required for it to be effective. The part I like about it is the apparent low cost in implementing it. In areas of the city where digging a hole gets complicated, this might be an effective alternative.-Redlerbob allen wrote: It's being done all over the country. It's called ground source heat pumps. the condenser uses the ground (more specifically water in it) as the heat sink. It is fairly simple set up if you have a well. If not a contractor Takes a back hoe and lays plastic pipe horizontally for hundreds of feet a couple of feet down.http://www.geoexchange.org/now if you mean is anybody "rolling their own" water cooled air condenser, I don't know.Mike Redler wrote: Hi everyone,As with many in this forum, I've been trying to stay cool today without switching on the AC. It's tempting but, so far I've resisted.I was standing under the shower head, thinking about what my air conditioner might be doing had it been turned on. Specifically, how the condenser responds to a difference in temperature and how that difference kinda sucks on an especially hot day.That lead me to a question. What would happen if you used cool city water to collect condenser heat? The warm water could then be sent down the drain and discarded.I'm just thinking out loud here and I wouldn't be at all surprised ifsomeone else tried this. If so, please speak up. I wouldn't want to reinvent the wheel here.I have absolutely no numbers to back up the viability of this idea but, I do know that water is a better conductor of heat than (dry) air and the difference in temperature (outside air temp - city water temp) can conceivably be 35+ degrees F.It's so damn hot, I'm thinking of dissecting an air conditioner or dehumidifier and adapting it to my bathtub right now, with a fan blowing the cool air into the hallway. Of course, if the energy savings were not substantial I'd be kind of annoyed at myself for not crunching the numbers first....any thoughts?-Redler ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Sweet. Interesting the author of referenced article doesnt see a difference between biofuel using carbon already in the atmosphere vs releasing sequestered via petro diesel. So how do we extract the lipid? Solvent? Looks like the energy problem is solved.Kirkbob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: any cell has a membrane which is comprised of a lipid bilayer, therefore anything alive makes lipids. Certain varieties do produce fairly lipid content. Here is a cite claiming 40% dry weight.http://www.energybulletin.net/1330.htmlKirk McLoren wrote: cell line as in living cells. Algae usually are joined chains of single cells. They arent higher structures like leaves and stalks and flowers. They usually convert sunlight and nutrients into sugar and fiber. I dont know any that are oil producers like the seeds of higher plants. Are you sure oil isnt wishful thinking? Kirk */Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Cell line? I don't follow. This is done with concentrators, fiber-optics and essentially hydroponics. There are no solar cells. You did look at the link that was offered, yes? http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/12/greenshift_lice.html Todd Swearingen Kirk McLoren wrote: So where are these guys published? Such a cell line should be in the literature. Kirk */Appal Energy /* wrote: Southern Kaliforn-I-eh. By December's end, 2007. Plant is or has already been contracted upon and should be completed by then. Don't think it's quite yet proper to say what firm is financing it, at least not until they issue their first press release, which they may have already done for all I'm aware of. The 100,000 gallons is just an estimate projected upon the reasonably accepted value of 2,000 gpa from inoculated species in a horizontal acre. This plant will be growing vertically, permitting at least 50 x production capability. Will kinda' knock the socks off anything going. They'll just have to get the costs down to something affordable..., which will happen in short order. It's either that or biodiesel will be bottlenecked until hell freezes over with a an economically sustainable level of oilseed production (perhaps 5% at best of overall US demand) and consuming the vast majority of WVO supplies. It's the future or commercial biodiesel is plumb (horse droppings) out of luck. Todd SwearingenKeith Addison wrote: And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae.Todd Swearingen \Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006?:-)Keith Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation.Kirk*/Jason Katie /* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it wouldbe an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanolwould require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa towardnothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import.Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farmland is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuringout what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gastanks.Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regularcars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we canshrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol fromsugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in theirfuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuelvehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing atleast one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Kirk McLoren wrote: Sweet. Interesting the author of referenced article doesnt see a difference between biofuel using carbon already in the atmosphere vs releasing sequestered via petro diesel. that's because it is Patzak, one of Pimental's fellow travelers. So how do we extract the lipid? Solvent? that is the most efficient process I would think. I wonder if you might get good yields with sonication to disrupt the cell membranes, and high pressure to separate out the liquid from solid fractions of the algae? As pointed out, this is still a long, long way from exploitation. Looks like the energy problem is solved. not really, more energy available will just translate to bigger cars, faster highways, bigger homes, etc. Ultimately at the expense of everything else on the planet. Kirk */bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: any cell has a membrane which is comprised of a lipid bilayer, therefore anything alive makes lipids. Certain varieties do produce fairly lipid content. Here is a cite claiming 40% dry weight. http://www.energybulletin.net/1330.html Kirk McLoren wrote: cell line as in living cells. Algae usually are joined chains of single cells. They arent higher structures like leaves and stalks and flowers. They usually convert sunlight and nutrients into sugar and fiber. I dont know any that are oil producers like the seeds of higher plants. Are you sure oil isnt wishful thinking? Kirk */Appal Energy /* wrote: Cell line? I don't follow. This is done with concentrators, fiber-optics and essentially hydroponics. There are no solar cells. You did look at the link that was offered, yes? http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/12/greenshift_lice.html Todd Swearingen Kirk McLoren wrote: So where are these guys published? Such a cell line should be in the literature. Kirk */Appal Energy /* wrote: Southern Kaliforn-I-eh. By December's end, 2007. Plant is or has already been contracted upon and should be completed by then. Don't think it's quite yet proper to say what firm is financing it, at least not until they issue their first press release, which they may have already done for all I'm aware of. The 100,000 gallons is just an estimate projected upon the reasonably accepted value of 2,000 gpa from inoculated species in a horizontal acre. This plant will be growing vertically, permitting at least 50 x production capability. Will kinda' knock the socks off anything going. They'll just have to get the costs down to something affordable..., which will happen in short order. It's either that or biodiesel will be bottlenecked until hell freezes over with a an economically sustainable level of oilseed production (perhaps 5% at best of overall US demand) and consuming the vast majority of WVO supplies. It's the future or commercial biodiesel is plumb (horse droppings) out of luck. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \ Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006? :-) Keith Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie /* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Keith, So in short Todd, as with the last 25 years, there is no biodiesel from algae right now on Planet Earth, but hey! it's just around the corner (December next year this time). Ho-hum, yawn... You can ho-hum-hokum-yawn all you wish. What good things are there that you can think of that once weren't and now are? And what of the biodiesel from New Zealand sewage treatment ponds? Or Dave Bayless' working proto? In general, doesn't a person or society have to crawl before they can run? Algae isn't air powered cars, magnets, or little blue pills pedaled by snake oil sales persons. It's a reality that's being worked on right now while you're yawning, despite an entire herd of market forces that have kept it at a snail's pace up to this point - no different than solar and wind which have faced the same roadblocks the past thirty years. Just out of curiosity, where are those two industries going now? And with the increasing cost of fossil fuels, both environmental and economical, they've become competitive in increasing instances, in spite of the ongoing corporate welfare (subsidies) payed out to the likes of nuclear, coal, oil and gas. So Keith, what are you suggesting with the Ho-hum, yawn...? Do you think we should just give up? Throw in the towel? Let corporate dinos strip the world of all it's buffers and watch society at large die a miserable, writhing end? Thank you, but no. At least not for me. As for Are you really thinking in the same corporatist and/or guzzle-addicted mindset that sees overall US demand as something that can be replaced, or sustained in any way? The answer is no, and you know that without asking the question. Unfortunately you're not waiting for the unneeded answer, as your next remark implies... How do you figure it - current growth trends in consumption extrapolated to 2020, like the US DoE? LOL! Dream on I've expressed myself often enough throughout my existence (not to mention on this list) that the candle needs to be burnt from both ends (more if it were possible). Anything less only provides a slower anhilation at the hands of collective stupidity, carelessness, selfishness or whatever. Apparently, or so it would seem, you think I've sold out somewhere along the line? If so, I wonder how you could come to such a conclusion? I can tell you this, however. No different than all the corporate fuel elitists, it's been self-evident for years that oilseeds and WVO will put but a small dent in the petroleum distillate fuel oil market, even if demand were somehow halved, whether by overnight magic or economic and environmental necessity, even if all the rain forests were stripped for palm oil (Can you spell destruction?) and all the jatropha in the world were put towards fuel. You know full well that the oilseed market is going to bottom out soon, more probably than not after next year's harvests as biodiesel demand grows and feed meal gluts rise. With plants being built at a jack rabbit pace at the moment, at least in the US, and demand for oil feed stocks steadily increasing rapidly, the inevitable result will be the market correcting itself, with farmers finding a production plateau that is sustainable. That is unless Congress (as far as the US goes) continues to offer the corporate welfare dollar to blenders. With that knowledge firmly in hand, what is it that you suppose will fill the role under the substitution principle? Soy got it's windfall. Now it's time to stabilize an industry, and try to do that before the oilseed industry faces a glut, or at least meet that window as quickly as possible. If feed stocks such as algae or similar such are not put into play as fast as possible, the result will be at first a lull in the biodiesel industry for several years, and at worst a final curtain pulled on this play called life. The end of the human race will be that it will eventually die of civilization. Ralph Waldo Emerson Well, I don't much consider what we have on hand at present to be but a remote and horribly distorted facsimile of civilization. And I would strongly encourage you to take a longer look at algae's role in carbon recycling and efforts towards carbon neutrality. Or are you thinking that getting an extra 45% efficiency out of a btu is a wasted effort? Have you considered how many commercial boilers, kilns, furnaces and ovens could be integrated with bioreactors and biodiesel production? And given the opportunity, would you seize it, or would you shun it, thinking that it was just another method to keep lining the pockets of big money interests? Perhaps so called geologic sequestration (waste) is a more logical approach than one of Max Utility? I think not. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: So in short Todd, as with the last 25 years, there is no biodiesel from algae right now on Planet Earth, but hey! it's just around the corner (December next year this time). Ho-hum, yawn...
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
You've got to read between the lines. And it helps a little to know how far apart they're placing the vertical mesh. You don't really think that anyone would sequester carbon via algae production and then just kinda' forget to do something with the oil, do you? Todd Swearingen Kirk McLoren wrote: I didnt see mention of 10^5 gallons of oil. I did see mention of scrubbing stack gasses. Kirk */Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Actually that's a conservative value. See http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/12/greenshift_lice.html and calculate what you come up with in square feet under roof with a 30' eave. The proto's already proven the values. All that remains is to upscale. Todd Swearingen Kirk McLoren wrote: I think that 100,000 is still vaporware. No purchaseable cultures of algusunobtainius ;) Kirk */D. Mindock /* wrote: Algae does seem to be a no brainer. So why isn't more impetus for it? We might even be able to harvest those algae blooms and make biodiesel from it. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Appal Energy To: Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \ Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie /* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel
[Biofuel] Why genetic engineering is dangerous
Why genetic engineering is dangerous by Pat Howard and Arne Hansen Common Ground (Canada) August 2006 http://www.commonground.ca/iss/0608181/cg181_GMOs.shtml Common Ground - July 2006 - The world is not an ice cream cone The Canadian GM risk assessment process is so simplistic that not a single submission has ever been rejected in Canada. Everything submitted, almost wholly by industry, has been accepted, according to Ann Clark PhD, one of this country's leading experts on the dangers of genetically modified organisms. The Canadian GM regulatory process is a ruse, claiming to safeguard human and environmental health, but actually intended to facilitate commercialization of GM crops, according to Dr. Clark. In a 2005 brief to Parliament regarding its controversial Bill C-27, Clark warned that if the federal government passes the pending Canadian Food Inspection Agency Enforcement Act, it will have voted to, Facilitate international trade primarily by streamlining inspections, replacing Canadian assessment with those by foreign powers, and harmonizing regulations with the US and other countries, all of which challenge, rather than safeguard, the health and safety of Canadians. Clark is an outspoken critic of Canada's regulatory policies and the processes related to field trials and commercial production of genetically modified crops, whether modified to produce pesticides in every cell of the plant, to resist spraying by soil-sterilizing herbicides, or to produce proteins for medicinal or industrial uses. She provided expert advice to the Royal Society of Canada Expert Panel on Food Biotechnology in 2001. The panel, the most influential and respected group of scientists in the country, concluded that the regulatory process was severely flawed, despite the government's claim that ours is the best regulatory system in the world. Beth Burrows, president and director of the Edmonds Institute, a public interest organization working on ecology, technology and social justice, tells us that Genetic engineering increasingly means agribusiness and pharmaceuticals, two industries already important as sources of funding for science, higher education and those who run for office. Talking biosafety can mean putting one's job and financial security at risk. Even diplomats charged by their governments to discuss biosafety balk at doing so, perhaps because they are also charged to protect their countries' industrial interests. The discussions that took place during the biosafety protocol negotiations begun in 1995 under the aegis of the UN Convention on Biodiversity were almost surreal in their avoidance of the topic [of bio-safety], she stated recently. Burrows ought to know. She has spent more than a decade attending UN biodiversity meetings and continues to provide vital background information on biosafety issues to Third World delegates negotiating these international agreements. Beth Burrows is founder of the non-profit public interest think tank, the Edmonds Institute, a group of smart, passionate people working flat-out for environmental and social justice. These critical remarks should be read in light of growing evidence of extremely serious impacts on health, environment and the livelihoods of Third World farmers. A European regulatory requirement for genetic safety testing, which is not required in Canada or the US, has revealed genetic instability in many GM crop varieties. Scientists are finding harmful impacts on soil micro-organisms, beneficial insects and laboratory animals exposed to genetically modified crops and GE food. Farmers in India are committing suicide by the hundreds in Andra Pradesh and other states because of GM crop failures. (www.navdanya.org/articles/seeds_suicide.htm) People and animals have become ill and even died after consumption or exposure to products containing genetically modified organisms. Unlike traditional plant breeding, in genetic engineering of crops, unrelated organisms, such as bacteria, are snipped apart and sections of their genes inserted into plants with unpredictable results. http://www.gmwatch.org/archive2.asp?arcid=5705 Ann Clark and Beth Burrows are outspoken citizens of Canada and the US respectively who are not afraid to speak truth to power. Join them for a public forum: Watchdogs or Lapdogs? Is the Regulation of Genetic Engineering Adequate? SFU [Simon Fraser University, British Columbia, Canada] Harbour Centre, Fletcher Challenge Theatre, September 5, 7:30 - 9:30pm. The event is sponsored by the SFU faculty of applied sciences, the schools of communication and kinesiology, the Institute for the Humanities at SFU and by Common Ground. Pat Howard is a professor of communications at SFU. [EMAIL PROTECTED]/ Arne Hansen is a Vancouver writer and can be contacted at [EMAIL PROTECTED]/. ___
[Biofuel] was...GeoExchange, on the cheap
Whoa, you still sleep on a waterbed? ;-) I had one years ago, the good ones with the coils for added support. Had to get rid of it after about 8 months because of back pain and restless. nights. They are really bad for your back as they offer very little support. Anyone that I know who ever had one got rid of theirs, long time ago as well. Not just my opinion, believe me, your back will pay from it years from now if you keep using one for long enough. Thermoelectric cooling and heating could be much more more efficient than AC for localised use such as thermoelectric liquid cooled/heated water for bed blankets, cooling vests. Eliminates EMF flowing close to the body, possible hazardous fire risks, dual heating/cooling and uses approx 70% less power than traditional AC. eliminates those hot, sticky sheets and lowers the need for running your larger cooling unit. Sounds like an ad, huh? Lot's of cool applications, me thinks, Portable units get more difficult because you have to be able to provide about 4.8 amps peak / per duty cycle and about 1/2 amp continuous. regards tallex ---Original Message--- From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap Sent: 04 Aug '06 14:23 Hey Kirk; Ever slept on a waterbed that got unplugged and woken up at 4 am shivering? Cooling my beduh ...no thanks. Joe Kirk McLoren wrote: Yes but using water like that certainly is only possible for a few. Most water systems are stressed already. The best method would be to use the latent heat of evaporation. It is important to know the relative humidity where you are. The koolsuit is a legitimate suggestion. 10 pounds of ice in a backpack with circulatory system for arms and legs is a viable low energy low impact system. 1 pound of water water will absorb 1 BTU when raised 1 degree F. If you need many BTU the volume becomes considerable. Just as using fluorescent instead of tungsten makes sense so does limiting cooling to a suit and mattress also make sense. We need to soften our impact on the world around us. Kirk _MIKE REDLER [LINK: MAILTO:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]_ wrote: Understood. But, why would I care if the sewer is a good heat sink? I suggested that the sewer be used as a way of discharging water after it had absorbed heat from inside the house (or apartment). I'm interested in finding a medium which is better than hot summer air for cooling the condenser and proposed that water, already cooled from being underground has the same benefit as geoexchange without the cost of digging a hole. - Redler Kirk McLoren wrote: Sewer lines are engineered for the load. Trust me they didnt install larger pipes so you can use them as a heat sink. The smaller the load the cheaper to refrigerate. A koolsuit would take maybe 300 watts. The rule of thumb in ac sizing is a ton per dozen occupants. Kirk _MIKE REDLER [LINK: MAILTO:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]_ wrote: Bob, Joe, et al Sure, that much I knew. But, what I meant by on the cheap was to use the existing infrastructure (i.e. existing, underground water lines) as the ground source instead of requiring a new hole to be dug. Sewer lines could be used as a conduit for sending heat out of the house (or apartment). Perhaps the heated water could be contained and used as domestic hot water for the laundry (for example). I know that there is at least one company in Florida that pumps heat from one's attic into the domestic hot water supply so, it's quite possible. Using city water and sewer lines as conduit for ground sourcing wouldn't be a closed loop and I'm not sure of the volume (cost) of water required for it to be effective. The part I like about it is the apparent low cost in implementing it. In areas of the city where digging a hole gets complicated, this might be an effective alternative. -Redler bob allen wrote: It's being done all over the country. It's called ground source heat pumps. the condenser uses the ground (more specifically water in it) as the heat sink. It is fairly simple set up if you have a well. If not a contractor Takes a back hoe and lays plastic pipe horizontally for hundreds of feet a couple of feet down.[LINK: http://www.geoexchange.org/] http://www.geoexchange.org/now if you mean is anybody rolling their own water cooled air condenser, I don't know.Mike Redler wrote: Hi everyone,As with many in this forum, I've been trying to stay cool today without switching on the AC. It's tempting but, so far I've resisted.I was standing under the shower head, thinking about what my air conditioner might be doing had it been turned on. Specifically, how the condenser responds to a difference in temperature and how that difference kinda
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Keith, Right Todd, more big-central stuff, with a cast of millions (of dollars) Being cynical is fine and quite often healthy. Being oblivious to what surrounds one is often to one's own and other's detriment. There are over 15,000 commercial boilers in the US. We're not speaking of just hot water to take showers, but multi-million btu boilers with thousands of tons of CO2 going out the stack and to no other use than more global warming. Now that's a jolly happy prospect, yes? (Not!!!) And that doesn't even touch the tip of the iceberg. The number fails to include industrial kilns, furnaces and ovens. Ever seen the enormous flares off a steel mill? More often than not, no co-gen. No nothing. Just waste. Do you think that maybe we should just let business be conducted as usual, or do you think that perhaps at least one responsible approach is to show the greedy, capitalist pigs that they can make a profit by doing something that reduces global warming? This isn't advocacy of consumption, not at present levels or increased. Nor is it an acceptance of the mis-programming that stuff is where the joy of life is to be found. It is, on the other hand, an acceptance of the fact that something has to be done to get these damn fools to stop their waste and the inevitable destruction, even if it means that some or many will try to greenwash the effort. If they can be induced by profit to make an environmental gain? Would you prefer that they do nothing instead? So just for grins and giggles, how about we divide 15,000 by, oh, let's see..., maybe 50 states? That works out to be 300 bio-reactors/biodiesel plants per state, or approximately one plant every radius a skosh less than nine miles. (3,539,224 sq miles in the US.) Seems to me that were it a perfect world, that would come very close to being micro-regional. Unfortunately, commercial kilns, boilers, furnaces and ovens aren't necessarily spaced in such a fashion, but you surely get the gist of the matter. And it doesn't mean that micro-regional plants using WVO or SVO have to be abolished just because larger industry might take on a larger share of biodiesel production. It's a very large world and the primary focus/purpose is to prevent it from being destroyed, not necessarily to dry up the cash flow of the wealthy, albeit not an extremely unattractive notion. no interest whatsoever for local projects, Please see above... and, as yet, no production Well? As of yet I'm not fifty. But short of calling the hand of a gun-toting card cheat in the middle of a poker match, it's more than a fair bet that I'll get there. We didn't use to have steel mills and coal-fired power plants either. Funny how things transpire, both good, bad and in between. They often need the permission of neither of us. should we perhaps sell everything so we can invest in the new fossil-fuel plants it will help to paint green too? Did I say everything? I thought not. Would you rather a barge load of green paint or the inevitable consequences of continuing global warming and in most probability global destruction, or at least the destruction of human un-civilization as we know it? Personally? I'd rather forestall the latter for as long as possible. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: Tom, Per horizontal acre, with the algae growing vertically. http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/12/greenshift_lice.html Bookmark that page and think about buying stock in the manufacturers of the technology. That is if you have all your credit cards payed off first. Todd Swearingen Right Todd, more big-central stuff, with a cast of millions (of dollars), no interest whatsoever for local projects, and, as yet, no production - should we perhaps sell everything so we can invest in the new fossil-fuel plants it will help to paint green too? Best Keith Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Todd and all, Do you mean acre-foot of seawater? Do you have any idea how much phosphorus would be required for growing this kind of mass even if the algae can fix atmospheric nitrogen? Let me diplomatic and say this seems to be an overestimation. Tom *From:* Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Tue, 01 Aug 2006 02:46:51 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \ Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006? :-) Keith Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Well, Todd Keith, So in short Todd, as with the last 25 years, there is no biodiesel from algae right now on Planet Earth, but hey! it's just around the corner (December next year this time). Ho-hum, yawn... You can ho-hum-hokum-yawn all you wish. Indeed I can. What good things are there that you can think of that once weren't and now are? :-) What good things were dreamed of that never happened because they were just pie in the sky? And what of the biodiesel from New Zealand sewage treatment ponds? We hear of it, and then we hear no more. So far. Anyone in NZ running their motor on it yet, can you buy it at the pump there yet? Just around the corner, is it? Or Dave Bayless' working proto? In general, doesn't a person or society have to crawl before they can run? Yes, and then they learn to walk, like babies, in that order - and the stage between crawling and running involves learning how to bounce, until you learn to keep your feet on the ground. Anyway I think we can run pretty well even without the undoubted blessings of oil-gushing algae wells, or is it chimneys or whatever. People and their societies that is. Algae isn't air powered cars, magnets, or little blue pills pedaled by snake oil sales persons. It's a reality that's being worked on right now A reality that's being worked on right now?? while you're yawning, Well it's boring, it's a lousy movie anyway and we've seen it so often already. despite an entire herd of market forces that have kept it at a snail's pace up to this point - no different than solar and wind which have faced the same roadblocks the past thirty years. Yes it is different from solar or wind - solar power exists, wind power exists, they're both ready-to-use renewable energy technologies with a long in-use track record behind them. Why don't you compare algae with hydrogen and fuel cells rather? Still not a good comparison, both of them exist too, along with all the delusions about them - whatever their realities, they're all three the dreams of guzzlers confronted with cold turkey. Why not compare algae with the free-energy over-unity scams? More in common in their shared lack of existence. People who sneer at the over-unity true-believers get told just the same things you're telling me. Just out of curiosity, where are those two industries going now? And with the increasing cost of fossil fuels, both environmental and economical, they've become competitive in increasing instances, in spite of the ongoing corporate welfare (subsidies) payed out to the likes of nuclear, coal, oil and gas. So Keith, what are you suggesting with the Ho-hum, yawn...? Do you think we should just give up? Throw in the towel? Let corporate dinos strip the world of all it's buffers and watch society at large die a miserable, writhing end? That seems to be rather a strange conclusion to reach. I'll take it that it has more to do with you than with me, since it obviously has nothing to do with me. I see no contradiction between vision and keeping your feet on the ground. Are your feet on the ground? What we have is rhetoric, but you don't answer the questions. Let's look at the last question you answered - here's the question: Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006? Here's your answer: Southern Kaliforn-I-eh. By December's end, 2007. Maybe: Plant is or has already been contracted upon and should be completed by then. Not on the ground. Let's look at some of the questions you didn't answer: Small-scale local-level oil-from-algae production might have its appeal in some circumstances (the city-farm setting eg, to supplement waste supplies), but existing algae types don't seem to cut it, it would probably mean using GMOs, with all the due reservations about that, and problems remain with extraction (who needs heptane) and with drying the stuff out in the first place without wasting a lot of time, effort and energy. Instead we get the proposal that these million-buck high-tech projects with no production as yet and no track record are somehow akin to micro-regional local energy projects. What next, more sneers at the homebrew mindset - aka Appropriate Technology? Or are these also suitable micro-regional energy projects, do you think? http://www.savoiapower.com/nuclear.html I also asked this: Imagine a few filters on some of our nations greenest (as in algae laden) streams and rivers, with an oil press on the end of the pto. Just imagine if it were more than just imagination - can you point us at any actual oil that has actually been produced from algae this way? Well, can you? I said: Unless you want to argue with this: How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take? http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch That's what you're going to have to do if you want to continue to insist the oil-from-algae vaporware's made
Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
O.K. so this is getting old now. Your first criticism said that such an idea wouldn't work because sewers aren't good heat sinks without acknowledging that the properties of the drain are irrelevant. Then you suggest that lowering the temperature of a room and maintaining the temperature of a room require the same energy (my scenario also takes place during an emergency, meaning you took it out of context). Then you begin to talk about "capillary tubes" when nothing within the machine or it's cycle has changed and the only suggestion is/was the medium for removing heat from the condenser - in this case, water. My other challenge to you past observations (i.e. sewers and heat sinks) have not been directly addressed yet. I concede that water usage would certainly be an issue. Whether or not it's an issue that can be overcome is still debatable (IMO). I also concede other valid points which may prevent this idea from being viable (see my earlier post: "When everything is said and done, it's just an idea."). However, mixed in with your good points are other comments which are reminiscent of a common pissing contest. Your "Can't get there from here" explanation is half baked and the theoretical proof addresses non-issues (see above). Most importantly, your dinner party analogy implies that I can afford all the electricity I want which would make many wonder why I'm on this list, making suggestions about efficient use of energy (even if they do have flaws). I appreciate those who had more constructive observations and more reliable critiques in this thread. Thank you Bob, Joe and Juan. - Redler Kirk McLoren wrote: 50 gallons x 8 pound per gallon = 400 pounds. Since 1 BTU raises 1 pound 1 degree F we can put 400 BTU in the tub per degree F 12000/400 =30 degrees. So it seems a tub is good for 1 to 2 hours depending on inlet temperature. So if every household in NYC draws a bathtub every hour and dumps same what is the outcome? Couple this to the problem that the average window air conditioner is a capillary tube system and relies on condenser pressure to force the refrigerant through the capillary tube. Low hiside pressure means refrigerant flow is curtailed and our pump and two fans chug away but with 2/3 or less refrigerant flow. That doesnt help brown/black outs. Bottom line - Cant get there from here. Requires engineering for a different system. There are water cooled condensers in operation - but they were sold that way. Putting condensate water on the coil is a good assist. It is good for another reason, it is "rainwater" and wont eat the aluminum fins. One could design for lower electrical consumption. Larger heat exchangers are a logical start. Also is dehumidification needed? Need to know that. Reducing solar load is a good start as well. Any windows with exposure to direct sun? People at dinner parties can afford all the electricity they want. Sad but true. The suffering on subsistence income can profit from inexpensive fixes. A "koldvest" could be a lifesaver. Simple is elegant. Kirk Mike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Only possible for a few? Roughly speaking, if you filled your (50 gallon?) tub once with cold city water, absorbed the heat in your small house or apartment by transferring it into the tub using a moderate size air conditioner (12000 to 15000 Btu/hr), I'm sure you wouldn't be causing a regional drought. Perhaps that water could be put to use for something else. Perhaps the water could be stored until used for something else. Granted, maintaining temperature would still need to be addressed. However, that wouldn't be the most costly part of the process and switching to a more conventional method for maintaining a comfortable temperature might still allow one to see a significant energy savings. As for a cool suit, I think the idea has merit. However, my dinner parties get smaller all the time after asking all my guests to "suit-up" instead of cooling the air around them (not to mention my closet space being lost from all those suits). :-) In all seriousness, I don't agree that this is only possible for a few and in some cases (like in nearby New York City) it might help save some lives. People are collapsing from heat exhaustion and the city is experiencing periodic blackouts from power usage (i.e. air conditioners). In an emergency situation, the water consumption would be the equivalent of everyone taking a bath at the same time (ah!). When I see fire hydrants being cracked open in urban neighborhoods to relieve people from the heat, I wonder what kind of strain it would put on the water supply. But, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. I'm still trying to figure out why (according to your previous post) sewers need to be good heat sinks. When everything is said and done, it's just an idea. Unproven and maybe impractical, this forum is the place to "think out loud" and see what happens with such ideas.
Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
Ahhh it was 33 degrees C in my bedroom Tuesday night and the humidity made it feel more like 48 degrees! I did manage to sleep but I admit the following day I ran the AC for a couple of hours in the evening till it was down to 28. I still wouldn't want to sleep on a cold surface, and what would you do about condensation in the bedding? No blackout yet but we have had some very violent thunderstorms and one tornado that touched down in farm land without killing anyone. There's getting to be a lot of tornados in the last few years. Joe Kirk McLoren wrote: If you had been in my house last week. The ac blew Friday night and Saturday we set a record high. A cold bed would have been marvelous. Kirk Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Kirk; Ever slept on a waterbed that got unplugged and woken up at 4 am shivering? Cooling my beduh ...no thanks. Joe Kirk McLoren wrote: Yes but using water like that certainly is only possible for a few. Most water systems are stressed already. The best method would be to use the latent heat of evaporation. It is important to know the relative humidity where you are. The "koolsuit" is a legitimate suggestion. 10 pounds of ice in a backpack with circulatory system for arms and legs is a viable low energy low impact system. 1 pound of water water will absorb 1 BTU when raised 1 degree F. If you need many BTU the volume becomes considerable. Just as using fluorescent instead of tungsten makes sense so does limiting cooling to a suit and mattress also make sense. We need to soften our impact on the world around us. Kirk Mike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Understood. But, why would I care if the sewer is a good heat sink? I suggested that the sewer be used as a way of discharging water after it had absorbed heat from inside the house (or apartment). I'm interested in finding a medium which is better than hot summer air for cooling the condenser and proposed that water, already cooled from being underground has the same benefit as geoexchange without the cost of digging a hole. - Redler Kirk McLoren wrote: Sewer lines are engineered for the load. Trust me they didnt install larger pipes so you can use them as a heat sink. The smaller the load the cheaper to refrigerate. A "koolsuit" would take maybe 300 watts. The rule of thumb in ac sizing is a ton per dozen occupants. Kirk Mike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bob, Joe, et al Sure, that much I knew. But, what I meant by "on the cheap" was to use the existing infrastructure (i.e. existing, underground water lines) as the ground source instead of requiring a new hole to be dug. Sewer lines could be used as a conduit for sending heat out of the house (or apartment). Perhaps the heated water could be contained and used as domestic hot water for the laundry (for example). I know that there is at least one company in Florida that pumps heat from one's attic into the domestic hot water supply so, it's quite possible. Using city water and sewer lines as conduit for ground sourcing wouldn't be a closed loop and I'm not sure of the volume (cost) of water required for it to be effective. The part I like about it is the apparent low cost in implementing it. In areas of the city where digging a hole gets complicated, this might be an effective alternative. -Redler bob allen wrote: It's being done all over the country. It's called ground source heat pumps. the condenser uses the ground (more specifically water in it) as the heat sink. It is fairly simple set up if you have a well. If not a contractor Takes a back hoe and lays plastic pipe horizontally for hundreds of feet a couple of feet down.http://www.geoexchange.org/now if you mean is anybody "rolling their own" water cooled air condenser, I don't know.Mike Redler wrote: Hi everyone,As with many in this forum, I've been trying to stay cool today without switching on the AC. It's tempting but, so far I've resisted.I was standing under the shower head, thinking about what my air conditioner might be doing had it been turned on. Specifically, how the condenser responds to a difference in temperature and how that difference kinda sucks on an especially hot day.That lead me to a question. What would happen if you used cool city water to collect condenser heat? The warm water could then be sent down the drain and discarded.I'm just thinking out loud here and I wouldn't be at all surprised ifsomeone else tried this. If so, please speak up. I wouldn't want to reinvent the wheel here.I have absolutely no numbers to back up the viability of this idea but, I do know that water
Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
Good point Joe. Thanks. I wonder if there are other options for city dwellers. My focus in this thread has been a search for the benefits of geoexchange without the hole. What if the water were stored and used later (in limited quantities, of course). Perhaps that would negate the legal issues. Other than that, I got nuthin'. ...on to the next topic I guess. -Redler Joe Street wrote: Hey Mike; A lot of energy goes in to cleaning city water and in this day and age where water is getting scarce using treated water for cooling is not too cool (pun) but as I said in my area it is illegal to do it and I suspect in other places too. Joe Mike Redler wrote: Understood. But, why would I care if the sewer is a good heat sink? I suggested that the sewer be used as a way of discharging water after it had absorbed heat from inside the house (or apartment). I'm interested in finding a medium which is better than hot summer air for cooling the condenser and proposed that water, already cooled from being underground has the same benefit as geoexchange without the cost of digging a hole. - Redler Kirk McLoren wrote: Sewer lines are engineered for the load. Trust me they didnt install larger pipes so you can use them as a heat sink. The smaller the load the cheaper to refrigerate. A "koolsuit" would take maybe 300 watts. The rule of thumb in ac sizing is a ton per dozen occupants. Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] was...GeoExchange, on the cheap
I never said I had a waterbed. But I slept on one when I was staying with freinds one time and it got unplugged. Nasty. I preffer a futon. Air does flow through blankets and sheets (and the futon actually) and any time you run chilled water through pipes you can get condensation so talk about sticky sheets how about damp ones? So then are you going to use a vapor barrier? That makes for clammy sleeping believe me, I know, from using a vapor barrier inside my sleeping bag while camping in Canadian winter conditions. It keeps your insulation dry, true, but warm and clammy is not what most people refer to as comfort! No I'll stick with controlling air temperature thank you, but consider that a straw bale home with a poured earthen plaster or concrete floor combined with the thick plaster on the walls and the awesome insulation properties of the bales, has enough thermal mass to prevent interior air from getting so damn hot (or cold in the winter). Visit one of these homes and see for yourself. Joe AltEnergyNetwork wrote: Whoa, you still sleep on a waterbed? ;-) I had one years ago, the good ones with the coils for added support. Had to get rid of it after about 8 months because of back pain and restless. nights. They are really bad for your back as they offer very little support. Anyone that I know who ever had one got rid of theirs, long time ago as well. Not just my opinion, believe me, your back will pay from it years from now if you keep using one for long enough. Thermoelectric cooling and heating could be much more more efficient than AC for localised use such as thermoelectric liquid cooled/heated water for bed blankets, cooling vests. Eliminates EMF flowing close to the body, possible hazardous fire risks, dual heating/cooling and uses approx 70% less power than traditional AC. eliminates those hot, sticky sheets and lowers the need for running your larger cooling unit. Sounds like an ad, huh? Lot's of cool applications, me thinks, Portable units get more difficult because you have to be able to provide about 4.8 amps peak / per duty cycle and about 1/2 amp continuous. regards tallex ---Original Message--- From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap Sent: 04 Aug '06 14:23 Hey Kirk; Ever slept on a waterbed that got unplugged and woken up at 4 am shivering? Cooling my beduh ...no thanks. Joe Kirk McLoren wrote: Yes but using water like that certainly is only possible for a few. Most water systems are stressed already. The best method would be to use the latent heat of evaporation. It is important to know the relative humidity where you are. The "koolsuit" is a legitimate suggestion. 10 pounds of ice in a backpack with circulatory system for arms and legs is a viable low energy low impact system. 1 pound of water water will absorb 1 BTU when raised 1 degree F. If you need many BTU the volume becomes considerable. Just as using fluorescent instead of tungsten makes sense so does limiting cooling to a suit and mattress also make sense. We need to soften our impact on the world around us. Kirk _MIKE REDLER [LINK: MAILTO:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] [EMAIL PROTECTED]_ wrote: Understood. But, why would I care if the sewer is a good heat sink? I suggested that the sewer be used as a way of discharging water after it had absorbed heat from inside the house (or apartment). I'm interested in finding a medium which is better than hot summer air for cooling the condenser and proposed that water, already cooled from being underground has the same benefit as geoexchange without the cost of digging a hole. - Redler Kirk McLoren wrote: Sewer lines are engineered for the load. Trust me they didnt install larger pipes so you can use them as a heat sink. The smaller the load the cheaper to refrigerate. A "koolsuit" would take maybe 300 watts. The rule of thumb in ac sizing is a ton per dozen occupants. Kirk _MIKE REDLER [LINK: MAILTO:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] [EMAIL PROTECTED]_ wrote: Bob, Joe, et al Sure, that much I knew. But, what I meant by "on the cheap" was to use the existing infrastructure (i.e. existing, underground water lines) as the ground source instead of requiring a new hole to be dug. Sewer lines could be used as a conduit for sending heat out of the house (or apartment). Perhaps the heated water could be contained and used as domestic hot water for the laundry (for example). I know that there is at least one company in Florida that pumps heat from one's attic into the domestic hot water supply so, it's quite possible. Using city water and sewer lines as conduit for ground sourcing wouldn't be a closed loop and I'm not sure of the volume (cost) of water required for it to be effective. The part I like about it is the apparent low cost in implementing it. In areas of the city where digging a hole gets complicated, this might be an effective
[Biofuel] was... when chaos replaces oil
Yes, he's a little over the top. regardless, we are in for some tough years ahead, regards tallex ---Original Message--- From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] when chaos replaces oil Sent: 03 Aug '06 17:02 I am sure that at 20 dollars a gallon there would be a stampede of growers to furnish oil let alone 700. I think the good doctor has been whiffing his own gas ;) Kirk _ALTENERGYNETWORK [EMAIL PROTECTED]_ wrote: When chaos replaces oil http://www.hbtoday.co.nz/localnews/storydisplay.cfm?storyid=3694928thesection=localnewsthesubsection=thesecondsubsection= KATHY WEBB Peter Lloyd is preparing for a ghastly future. The world he foresees is one in which it will cost $700 or $1000 to fill the family car - if petrol is available for private use. It will be a world in which the scarcity and expense of oil, widespread pollution, environmental ruin and climate change will bring down modern civilisation in terrible anarchy as countries go to war over oil, fresh water or arable land; as ordinary people try to adjust to living primitive lives without the medicines and technology that support their lives in the 21st century. Dr Lloyd, an anaesthetist at the Hawke's Bay Hospital, estimates about 80 percent of the world's six billion people will die of hunger, disease or slaughter on a scale never before seen in history. New Zealand will be one of the best places to be while all this unfolds, he says, because although it will take some refugees from Australia and the Pacific Islands, it is geographically too isolated to be invaded and over-run by hordes from Asia, Africa and Europe. He insists he's an optimist, and he is - in a way. He believes there's still a chance to prepare to survive what is going to happen. While resources based on oil are still available, the world must prepare to live without those same resources. How do you make and run wind turbines or solar panels without machinery that uses oil? Dr Lloyd asks. How do you import and export if fuel for ships and planes is too expensive or unavailable? It's no good depending on bio-fuels, he says, because the world couldn't grow enough crops fast enough to provide for existing, let alone future, energy demands. The world's population stood at one billion by the beginning of the 20th century. Then we started burning oil and coal to make life more comfortable and efficient; to build global transport networks; to run machinery to grow more food to feed more people. We began to chop down the rainforests that act as Planet Earth's lungs to clear more space to graze more animals to feed more people; to invent new materials such as plastics; to make drugs that cure diseases that once would have killed us. By the beginning of the 21st century, the global population stood at about 6 billion, all highly dependent on the exploitation of fossil fuels and other natural resources. The ordinary lives of ordinary people in developed countries have become remote from the basic sources of life, Dr Lloyd says. In the US, every item of food is transported an average of 1500km to its point of consumption. He wants to see New Zealand promoting local production for local consumption, and every New Zealand house with at least solar water-heating, but preferably solar electricity generation as well. He's setting an example with an extensive solar-panel system on his roof. It sends surplus electricity into the national grid, while at other times, his household draws off the grid. He's installed a 25,000 litre rainwater tank in his backyard, planted a modest kitchen garden, sold his beloved fuel-guzzling Land Rover, and now rides a bike to work. Electric cars are the way of the future, he says. In the past 100 years, vast areas of Earth have been polluted and killed, stripped of vegetation and turned into desert or bare land that washes away as mudslides in flash floods; the ocean floors have been dragged, scraped and vacuumed of their fish life, clean and adequate water supplies have become a precious asset. The Amazon rainforest, which is being cut down at an alarmingly rapid rate, is now into its second year of drought. That will quite likely kill the forest that plays a pivotal role in controlling global climate. And if it does, trees will be replaced by grassland or desert, causing much of the world to become hotter and drier, and global warming to spin out of control and eventually make Earth uninhabitable. Another consequence of uncontrolled exploitation is Peak Oil, Dr Lloyd says. Peak Oil is a theory that mankind is using up oil supplies faster than they can be replaced, so oil will inevitably become increasingly scarce and expensive, even without the aggravating effect of war in the Middle East.
Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
Mike Redler wrote: snip Most importantly, your dinner party analogy implies that I can afford all the electricity I want which would make many wonder why I'm on this list, making suggestions about efficient use of energy (even if they do have flaws). I appreciate those who had more constructive observations and more reliable critiques in this thread. Thank you Bob, Joe and Juan. - Redler Hey Mikey; Does that mean that the list is closed to the bourgeois? Damn. I like this list! LOL. Actually Juan has the best idea. The condensate from the evaporator is pretty clean by definition and has got me to thinking about how to use a little lift pump to bring it out to a mister on the condenser coil outside. The lift pump can be runn off the same contactor that is used to power up the compressor. I could even rig up a little float valve that would add a little R.O. water to the bucket used for the lift pump incase the condensate is not enough. Hmm I should try this. It wouldn't be too hard. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] was.. was...GeoExchange, on the cheap
Our AC works fine but I don't like using it as it really adds up. You also start out comfortable but an hour later if you set it too cold, you end up using a sheet to keep your front from freezing and your back and body core is still hot. I mentioned the thermocouple idea as I have all the components to build one, I am just missing a good 12vdc pump and a couple of sensors.. The blanket is a series of plastic tubing sewn in concentric channels between cotton wicking.. a la quilt type design. The cooled liquid circulates through the blanket and excess heat is removed through a heat sink before cooling and the cycle is repeated. I see no clammy problem with such a system. Once I get those last parts, I am making one. I'll post the results, regards tallex ---Original Message--- From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] was...GeoExchange, on the cheap Sent: 04 Aug '06 17:59 I never said I had a waterbed. But I slept on one when I was staying with freinds one time and it got unplugged. Nasty. I preffer a futon. Air does flow through blankets and sheets (and the futon actually) and any time you run chilled water through pipes you can get condensation so talk about sticky sheets how about damp ones? So then are you going to use a vapor barrier? That makes for clammy sleeping believe me, I know, from using a vapor barrier inside my sleeping bag while camping in Canadian winter conditions. It keeps your insulation dry, true, but warm and clammy is not what most people refer to as comfort! No I'll stick with controlling air temperature thank you, but consider that a straw bale home with a poured earthen plaster or concrete floor combined with the thick plaster on the walls and the awesome insulation properties of the bales, has enough thermal mass to prevent interior air from getting so damn hot (or cold in the winter). Visit one of these homes and see for yourself. Joe AltEnergyNetwork wrote: Whoa, you still sleep on a waterbed? ;-) I had one years ago, the good ones with the coils for added support. Had to get rid of it after about 8 months because of back pain and restless. nights. They are really bad for your back as they offer very little support. Anyone that I know who ever had one got rid of theirs, long time ago as well. Not just my opinion, believe me, your back will pay from it years from now if you keep using one for long enough. Thermoelectric cooling and heating could be much more more efficient than AC for localised use such as thermoelectric liquid cooled/heated water for bed blankets, cooling vests. Eliminates EMF flowing close to the body, possible hazardous fire risks, dual heating/cooling and uses approx 70% less power than traditional AC. eliminates those hot, sticky sheets and lowers the need for running your larger cooling unit. Sounds like an ad, huh? Lot's of cool applications, me thinks, Portable units get more difficult because you have to be able to provide about 4.8 amps peak / per duty cycle and about 1/2 amp continuous. regards tallex Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Earth_Rescue_International http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Earth_Rescue_International/ ---Original Message--- From: Joe Street [LINK: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap Sent: 04 Aug '06 14:23 Hey Kirk;Ever slept on a waterbed that got unplugged and woken up at 4 am shivering? Cooling my beduh ...no thanks.JoeKirk McLoren wrote: Yes but using water like that certainly is only possible for a few. Most water systems are stressed already. The best method would be to use the latent heat of evaporation. It is important to know the relative humidity where you are.The koolsuit is a legitimate suggestion. 10 pounds of ice in a backpack with circulatory system for arms and legs is a viable low energy low impact system.1 pound of water water will absorb 1 BTU when raised 1 degree F. If you need many BTU the volume becomes considerable.Just as using fluorescent instead of tungsten makes sense so does limiting cooling to a suit and mattress also make sense.We need to soften our impact on the world around us. Kirk _MIKE REDLER [LINK: [LINK: MAILTO:[EMAIL PROTECTED] MAILTO:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [LINK: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]_ wrote: Understood. But, why would I care if the sewer is a good heat sink? I suggested that the sewer be used as a way of discharging water
[Biofuel] The decider decides to give himself more power
Yes, just what we need. The Decider deciding he needs more powers. Shheesh http://www.theonion.com/content/node/51140 Bush Grants Self Permission To Grant More Power To Self Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Earth_Rescue_International http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Earth_Rescue_International/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] was... The Decider decides to give himself more power
Sorry about replying to my own post but I wanted to high light this as well. Bush said during a televised address from the East Room of the White House shortly after signing his executive order. I promise the American people that I will not abuse this new power, unless it becomes necessary to grant myself the power to do so at a later time. indeed, regards tallex ---Original Message--- From: AltEnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Biofuel] The decider decides to give himself more power Sent: 04 Aug '06 18:29 Yes, just what we need. The Decider deciding he needs more powers. Shheesh http://www.theonion.com/content/node/51140 Bush Grants Self Permission To Grant More Power To Self Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Earth_Rescue_International http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Earth_Rescue_International/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Earth_Rescue_International http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Earth_Rescue_International/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] was.. was...GeoExchange, on the cheap
...nice. :-) AltEnergyNetwork wrote: Our AC works fine but I don't like using it as it really adds up. You also start out comfortable but an hour later if you set it too cold, you end up using a sheet to keep your front from freezing and your back and body core is still hot. I mentioned the thermocouple idea as I have all the components to build one, I am just missing a good 12vdc pump and a couple of sensors.. The "blanket" is a series of plastic tubing sewn in concentric channels between cotton wicking.. a la quilt type design. The cooled liquid circulates through the "blanket and excess heat is removed through a heat sink before cooling and the cycle is repeated. I see no "clammy problem" with such a system. Once I get those last parts, I am making one. I'll post the results, regards tallex ---Original Message--- From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] was...GeoExchange, on the cheap Sent: 04 Aug '06 17:59 I never said I had a waterbed. But I slept on one when I was staying with freinds one time and it got unplugged. Nasty. I preffer a futon. Air does flow through blankets and sheets (and the futon actually) and any time you run chilled water through pipes you can get condensation so talk about sticky sheets how about damp ones? So then are you going to use a vapor barrier? That makes for clammy sleeping believe me, I know, from using a vapor barrier inside my sleeping bag while camping in Canadian winter conditions. It keeps your insulation dry, true, but warm and clammy is not what most people refer to as comfort! No I'll stick with controlling air temperature thank you, but consider that a straw bale home with a poured earthen plaster or concrete floor combined with the thick plaster on the walls and the awesome insulation properties of the bales, has enough thermal mass to prevent interior air from getting so damn hot (or cold in the winter). Visit one of these homes and see for yourself. Joe AltEnergyNetwork wrote: Whoa, you still sleep on a waterbed? ;-) I had one years ago, the good ones with the coils for added support. Had to get rid of it after about 8 months because of back pain and restless. nights. They are really bad for your back as they offer very little support. Anyone that I know who ever had one got rid of theirs, long time ago as well. Not just my opinion, believe me, your back will pay from it years from now if you keep using one for long enough. Thermoelectric cooling and heating could be much more more efficient than AC for localised use such as thermoelectric liquid cooled/heated water for bed blankets, cooling vests. Eliminates EMF flowing close to the body, possible hazardous fire risks, dual heating/cooling and uses approx 70% less power than traditional AC. eliminates those hot, sticky sheets and lowers the need for running your larger cooling unit. Sounds like an ad, huh? Lot's of cool applications, me thinks, Portable units get more difficult because you have to be able to provide about 4.8 amps peak / per duty cycle and about 1/2 amp continuous. regards tallex Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ Earth_Rescue_International http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Earth_Rescue_International/ ---Original Message--- From: Joe Street [LINK: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap Sent: 04 Aug '06 14:23 Hey Kirk;Ever slept on a waterbed that got unplugged and woken up at 4 am shivering? Cooling my beduh ...no thanks.JoeKirk McLoren wrote: Yes but using water like that certainly is only possible for a few. Most water systems are stressed already. The best method would be to use the latent heat of evaporation. It is important to know the relative humidity where you are.The "koolsuit" is a legitimate suggestion. 10 pounds of ice in a backpack with circulatory system for arms and legs is a viable low energy low impact system.1 pound of water water will absorb 1 BTU when raised 1 degree F. If you need many BTU the volume becomes considerable.Just as using fluorescent instead of tungsten makes sense so does limiting cooling to a suit and mattress also make sense.We need to soften our impact on the world around us. Kirk _MIKE REDLER [LINK: [LINK: MAILTO:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] MAILTO:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] [LINK: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] [EMAIL PROTECTED]_ wrote: Understood. But, why would I care if the sewer is a good heat sink? I suggested that the sewer be used as a way of
Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
Hello Joe Street, Mike Redler and all. About a lifter pump for the amount of water required for evaporation, it could be a windshield washer pump I think is enough but you need a transformer with a rectifier to have 13 volts DC from 110 or 220 AC. They might be expensive unless they come from a junkyard. A tip: Some Peugeot models has a long windshield sprinkler with many holes. Regarding the water, it starts to condense and collects around 15 minutes after the AC is on (at 70% R.H.or higher) and then it is splashed with the fan blades if the relative humidity is around 50% there is almost no water condensate. I usually get minus 2 degrees in the air cold side if I am using water evaporation and the compressor works less. My AC unit condenser is made aluminium, with the plug in place, the tray collects water but remember to clean the tray more often, I got some algae growing in it because they used the dust as substrate and the sky light is available to them, here more than 200 days of the year are sunny days or with few clouds :) Algae might not grow on copper evaporators but it may get full of dead insects in some places if not cleaned. Best Regards. Juan Paraguay -Mensaje original- De: Joe Street [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Enviado el: viernes 4 de agosto de 2006 14:09 Para: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Asunto: Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap Mike Redler wrote: snip Most importantly, your dinner party analogy implies that I can afford all the electricity I want which would make many wonder why I'm on this list, making suggestions about efficient use of energy (even if they do have flaws). I appreciate those who had more constructive observations and more reliable critiques in this thread. Thank you Bob, Joe and Juan. - Redler Hey Mikey; Does that mean that the list is closed to the bourgeois? Damn. I like this list! LOL. Actually Juan has the best idea. The condensate from the evaporator is pretty clean by definition and has got me to thinking about how to use a little lift pump to bring it out to a mister on the condenser coil outside. The lift pump can be runn off the same contactor that is used to power up the compressor. I could even rig up a little float valve that would add a little R.O. water to the bucket used for the lift pump incase the condensate is not enough. Hmm I should try this. It wouldn't be too hard. Joe ___ Information from NOD32 This message was checked by NOD32 Antivirus System for Linux Mail Servers. http://www.eset.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
No condensation but rivulets of sweat. I imagine the mattress would have to be placed in the sun if this was a continuous experience. I like the Japanese approach to sleeping space - the one where you rent an airconditioned tube. I can survive if I can sleep. Fortunately it cooled off enough by 1AM that I could sleep. Refrigeration requires technology. Inescapable I believe.KirkJoe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ahhh it was 33 degrees C in my bedroom Tuesday night and the humidity made it feel more like 48 degrees! I did manage to sleep but I admit the following day I ran the AC for a couple of hours in the evening till it was down to 28. I still wouldn't want to sleep on a cold surface, and what would you do about condensation in the bedding? No blackout yet but we have had some very violent thunderstorms and one tornado that touched down in farm land without killing anyone. There's getting to be a lot of tornados in the last few years.JoeKirk McLoren wrote:If you had been in my house last week. The ac blew Friday night and Saturday we set a record high. A cold bed would have been marvelous.KirkJoe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Kirk;Ever slept on a waterbed that got unplugged and woken up at 4 am shivering? Cooling my beduh ...no thanks.JoeKirk McLoren wrote:Yes but using water like that certainly is only possible for a few. Most water systems are stressed already. The best method would be to use the latent heat of evaporation. It is important to know the relative humidity where you are. The "koolsuit" is a legitimate suggestion. 10 pounds of ice in a backpack with circulatory system for arms and legs is a viable low energy low impact system. 1 pound of water water will absorb 1 BTU when raised 1 degree F. If you need many BTU the volume becomes considerable. Just as using fluorescent instead of tungsten makes sense so does limiting cooling to a suit and mattress also make sense. We need to soften our impact on the world around us.KirkMike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Understood. But, why would I care if the sewer is a good heat sink? I suggested that the sewer be used as a way of discharging water after it had absorbed heat from inside the house (or apartment).I'm interested in finding a medium which is better than hot summer air for cooling the condenser and proposed that water, already cooled from being underground has the same benefit as geoexchange without the cost of digging a hole.- RedlerKirk McLoren wrote: Sewer lines are engineered for the load. Trust me they didnt install larger pipes so you can use them as a heat sink. The smaller the load the cheaper to refrigerate. A "koolsuit" would take maybe 300 watts. The rule of thumb in ac sizing is a ton per dozen occupants.KirkMike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bob, Joe, et alSure, that much I knew. But, what I meant by "on the cheap" was to use the existing infrastructure (i.e. existing, underground water lines) as the ground source instead of requiring a new hole to be dug. Sewer lines could be used as a conduit for sending heat out of the house (or apartment). Perhaps the heated water could be contained and used as domestic hot water for the laundry (for example). I know that there is at least one company in Florida that pumps heat from one's attic into the domestic hot water supply so, it's quite possible.Using city water and sewer lines as conduit for ground sourcing wouldn't be a closed loop and I'm not sure of the volume (cost) of water required for it to be effective. The part I like about it is the apparent low cost in implementing it. In areas of the city where digging a hole gets complicated, this might be an effective alternative.-Redlerbob allen wrote: It's being done all over the country. It's called ground source heat pumps. the condenser uses the ground (more specifically water in it) as the heat sink. It is fairly simple set up if you have a well. If not a contractor Takes a back hoe and lays plastic pipe horizontally for hundreds of feet a couple of feet down.http://www.geoexchange.org/now if you mean is anybody "rolling their own" water cooled air condenser, I don't know.Mike Redler wrote: Hi everyone,As with many in this forum, I've been trying to stay cool today without switching on the AC. It's tempting but, so far I've resisted.I was standing under the shower head, thinking about what my air conditioner might be doing had it been turned on. Specifically, how the condenser responds to a difference in temperature and how that difference kinda sucks on an especially hot day.That lead me to a question. What would happen if you used cool city water to collect condenser heat? The warm water could then be sent down the drain and discarded.I'm just thinking out loud here and I wouldn't be at all surprised ifsomeone else tried this. If so, please speak up. I wouldn't want to reinvent the wheel
Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
Evidently you want to hear what you want to hear or else. . .Capillary tubes is the method of construction for small AC units. They are engineered to work under the usual room conditions. Their usage is because people want small AC units to be inexpensive.You want to alter the conditions. I told you what happens when you lower the temperature of the condenser with water. They are designed to not see more water than condensate. If you want to play with such technology then find a deluxe unit with a thermostatic expansion valve. That unit could benefit from lowering the condenser temperature. A capillary tube system has a narrow operating range -- too narrow for your proposal. As for sewers your water dept wont approve it and remember they are in business to make money. Publicly owned ones wont either. To cool a house takes a lot more than a 12000 BTU unit and I think it was adequately pointed out that it doesnt pencil to run an additional 50 gallons of water from every apartment in town every hour or two. House unitsare typically36000 to 6 BTU (but probably expansion valve systems)- 3 to 5 times more. The relevance of the drain is the waste water system is sized for the population. Dont take my word for it - contact your local water department. Your proposal if adopted by the populationwillin all likelyhoodexceed treatment capacity and force them into an EPA violation. So it would seem this scheme is non-viable. If you have more specific questions perhaps that would work. It is better for the list if you can keep an objective frame of mind.Kirk Mike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: O.K. so this is getting old now.Your first criticism said that such an idea wouldn't work because sewers aren't good heat sinks without acknowledging that the properties of the drain are irrelevant. Then you suggest that lowering the temperature of a room and maintaining the temperature of a room require the same energy (my scenario also takes place during an emergency, meaning you took it out of context). Then you begin to talk about "capillary tubes" when nothing within the machine or it's cycle has changed and the only suggestion is/was the medium for removing heat from the condenser - in this case, water. My other challenge to you past observations (i.e. sewers and heat sinks) have not been directly addressed yet.I concede that water usage would certainly be an issue. Whether or not it's an issue that can be overcome is still debatable (IMO). I also concede other valid points which may prevent this idea from being viable (see my earlier post: "When everything is said and done, it's just an idea."). However, mixed in with your good points are other comments which are reminiscent of a common pissing contest. Your "Can't get there from here" explanation is half baked and the theoretical proof addresses non-issues (see above). Most importantly, your dinner party analogy implies that I can afford all the electricity I want which would make many wonder why I'm on this list, making suggestions about efficient use of energy (even if they do have flaws).I appreciate those who had more constructive observations and more reliable critiques in this thread. Thank you Bob, Joe and Juan.- RedlerKirk McLoren wrote: 50 gallons x 8 pound per gallon = 400 pounds. Since 1 BTU raises 1 pound 1 degree F we can put 400 BTU in the tub per degree F 12000/400 =30 degrees. So it seems a tub is good for 1 to 2 hours depending on inlet temperature. So if every household in NYC draws a bathtub every hour and dumps same what is the outcome? Couple this to the problem that the average window air conditioner is a capillary tube system and relies on condenser pressure to force the refrigerant through the capillary tube. Low hiside pressure means refrigerant flow is curtailed and our pump and two fans chug away but with 2/3 or less refrigerant flow. That doesnt help brown/black outs. Bottom line - Cant get there from here. Requires engineering for a different system. There are water cooled condensers in operation - but they were sold that way. Putting condensate water on the coil is a good assist. It is good for another reason, it is "rainwater" and wont eat the aluminum fins.One could design for lower electrical consumption. Larger heat exchangers are a logical start. Also is dehumidification needed? Need to know that. Reducing solar load is a good start as well. Any windows with exposure to direct sun? People at dinner parties can afford all the electricity they want. Sad but true. The suffering on subsistence income can profit from inexpensive fixes. A "koldvest" could be a lifesaver. Simple is elegant.KirkMike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Only possible for a few?Roughly speaking, if you filled your (50 gallon?) tub once with cold city water, absorbed the heat in your small house or apartment by transferring it into the tub using a moderate size air conditioner (12000 to 15000 Btu/hr), I'm sure you wouldn't
Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
Hey Kirk. Thanks for the description of the capilary units... I never understood why AC units (and fridges too) wouldn't function well under conditions of very cold condensers, which you'd think would work better. But I was approaching it from a textbook perspective, which always shows an expansion valve I'd disagree that a house needs more than one ton of cooling. The department of energy and others have built small houses (1,200 sq ft) that can get by on a ton or so -- these are ones with white reflective roofs, large overhangs, good ceiling and wall insulation, low solar heat gain windows and good window placement, radient barriers in the attice, low infiltration, etc... atmitedly not very typical. 3 to 5 tons is more typical so your values are good for calculations for more normal houses... On 8/4/06, Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Evidently you want to hear what you want to hear or else. . .Capillary tubes is the method of construction for small AC units. They are engineered to work under the usual room conditions. Their usage is because people want small AC units to be inexpensive.You want to alter the conditions. I told you what happens when you lower the temperature of the condenser with water. They are designed to not see more water than condensate. If you want to play with such technology then find a deluxe unit with a thermostatic expansion valve. That unit could benefit from lowering the condenser temperature. A capillary tube system has a narrow operating range -- too narrow for your proposal. As for sewers your water dept wont approve it and remember they are in business to make money. Publicly owned ones wont either. To cool a house takes a lot more than a 12000 BTU unit and I think it was adequately pointed out that it doesnt pencil to run an additional 50 gallons of water from every apartment in town every hour or two. House unitsare typically36000 to 6 BTU (but probably expansion valve systems)- 3 to 5 times more. The relevance of the drain is the waste water system is sized for the population. Dont take my word for it - contact your local water department. Your proposal if adopted by the populationwillin all likelyhoodexceed treatment capacity and force them into an EPA violation. So it would seem this scheme is non-viable. If you have more specific questions perhaps that would work. It is better for the list if you can keep an objective frame of mind. Kirk Mike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: O.K. so this is getting old now.Your first criticism said that such an idea wouldn't work because sewers aren't good heat sinks without acknowledging that the properties of the drain are irrelevant. Then you suggest that lowering the temperature of a room and maintaining the temperature of a room require the same energy (my scenario also takes place during an emergency, meaning you took it out of context). Then you begin to talk about capillary tubes when nothing within the machine or it's cycle has changed and the only suggestion is/was the medium for removing heat from the condenser - in this case, water. My other challenge to you past observations ( i.e. sewers and heat sinks) have not been directly addressed yet.I concede that water usage would certainly be an issue. Whether or not it's an issue that can be overcome is still debatable (IMO). I also concede other valid points which may prevent this idea from being viable (see my earlier post: When everything is said and done, it's just an idea.). However, mixed in with your good points are other comments which are reminiscent of a common pissing contest. Your Can't get there from here explanation is half baked and the theoretical proof addresses non-issues (see above). Most importantly, your dinner party analogy implies that I can afford all the electricity I want which would make many wonder why I'm on this list, making suggestions about efficient use of energy (even if they do have flaws). I appreciate those who had more constructive observations and more reliable critiques in this thread. Thank you Bob, Joe and Juan.- RedlerKirk McLoren wrote: 50 gallons x 8 pound per gallon = 400 pounds. Since 1 BTU raises 1 pound 1 degree F we can put 400 BTU in the tub per degree F 12000/400 =30 degrees. So it seems a tub is good for 1 to 2 hours depending on inlet temperature. So if every household in NYC draws a bathtub every hour and dumps same what is the outcome? Couple this to the problem that the average window air conditioner is a capillary tube system and relies on condenser pressure to force the refrigerant through the capillary tube. Low hiside pressure means refrigerant flow is curtailed and our pump and two fans chug away but with 2/3 or less refrigerant flow. That doesnt help brown/black outs. Bottom line - Cant get there from here. Requires engineering for a different system. There are water cooled condensers in operation - but they were sold that way. Putting condensate water on the coil
Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
Hey Juan, looks like you got an itch. :-) - Redler Juan Boveda wrote: Hello Joe Street, Mike Redler and all. About a lifter pump for the amount of water required for evaporation, it could be a windshield washer pump I think is enough but you need a transformer with a rectifier to have 13 volts DC from 110 or 220 AC. They might be expensive unless they come from a junkyard. A tip: Some Peugeot models has a long windshield sprinkler with many holes. Regarding the water, it starts to condense and collects around 15 minutes after the AC is on (at 70% R.H.or higher) and then it is splashed with the fan blades if the relative humidity is around 50% there is almost no water condensate. I usually get minus 2 degrees in the air cold side if I am using water evaporation and the compressor works less. My AC unit condenser is made aluminium, with the plug in place, the tray collects water but remember to clean the tray more often, I got some algae growing in it because they used the dust as substrate and the sky light is available to them, here more than 200 days of the year are sunny days or with few clouds :) Algae might not grow on copper evaporators but it may get full of dead insects in some places if not cleaned. Best Regards. Juan Paraguay ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Using biodiesel in newer truck-cars
Thank for the info. Derick, I Would like to see pictures of your processor. I have made a few sample liters of biodiesel and this weekend will do a few more using used oil to nasty used oil to get abetter feel for the the things that should and should not happen. Today a found a supply of used 100 gal tanks that I can use and mod to make my processor with. I plan to have one pertreat tank, processor tank, dry tank with twopoly wash tanks. Frist wash tank will wash with spray in the frist stage and spray with air bubbler for the second stage. The second wash tank will have spray, bubbler and aggatation. Then to the dryer. After some testing of the fuel hopefully into the truck tank it will go. All of this might sound like a bit of over kill but this is what I feel comfortable with for my new 2005truck. If any one wants to put any input in I'm all ears, really, there big. Will try to post pictures as I go with the consruction of the unit. Thanks Again, Steve Original Message - From: Derick Giorchino To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 5:44 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Using biodiesel in newer truck-cars I have a 04 dodge with a Cummins and have been running it on b100 for 1 ½ years after researching this to death. And finding nothing on bio in late models Cummins talks in circles about bio saying the jury is still out. Although they dont say not to use it they dont say its o.k. so I am doing my own research all is good with about 26000 miles in bio only. Good luck Derick From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve BartonSent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 5:15 AMTo: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: [Biofuel] Using biodiesel in newer truck-cars Hello to all I'm new to all of this and have read and studied the makeing of biodiesel and have planed out a plane to produce it as well But befor diving into to deep of water I have not found much info about runing home made biodiesel in newer engines. I have a 2005 chevy diesel truck with the 6.6lly engine in it. Any links on the net or info about problems that I might have running biodiesel that I have made myself in a newer computer controled diesels would be nice. Thanks for the help. Frist post to the list, Steve ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] was...GeoExchange, on the cheap
I've been sleeping on a waterbed for lets see about 35 years. The only time my back hurts is when I travel and sleep on anything but a waterbed. In the summer we peel back the cover and get the coolth. AltEnergyNetwork wrote: Whoa, you still sleep on a waterbed? ;-) I had one years ago, the good ones with the coils for added support. Had to get rid of it after about 8 months because of back pain and restless. nights. They are really bad for your back as they offer very little support. Anyone that I know who ever had one got rid of theirs, long time ago as well. Not just my opinion, believe me, your back will pay from it years from now if you keep using one for long enough. Thermoelectric cooling and heating could be much more more efficient than AC for localised use such as thermoelectric liquid cooled/heated water for bed blankets, cooling vests. Eliminates EMF flowing close to the body, possible hazardous fire risks, dual heating/cooling and uses approx 70% less power than traditional AC. eliminates those hot, sticky sheets and lowers the need for running your larger cooling unit. Sounds like an ad, huh? Lot's of cool applications, me thinks, Portable units get more difficult because you have to be able to provide about 4.8 amps peak / per duty cycle and about 1/2 amp continuous. regards tallex ---Original Message--- From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap Sent: 04 Aug '06 14:23 Hey Kirk; Ever slept on a waterbed that got unplugged and woken up at 4 am shivering? Cooling my beduh ...no thanks. Joe Kirk McLoren wrote: Yes but using water like that certainly is only possible for a few. Most water systems are stressed already. The best method would be to use the latent heat of evaporation. It is important to know the relative humidity where you are. The koolsuit is a legitimate suggestion. 10 pounds of ice in a backpack with circulatory system for arms and legs is a viable low energy low impact system. 1 pound of water water will absorb 1 BTU when raised 1 degree F. If you need many BTU the volume becomes considerable. Just as using fluorescent instead of tungsten makes sense so does limiting cooling to a suit and mattress also make sense. We need to soften our impact on the world around us. Kirk _MIKE REDLER [LINK: MAILTO:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]_ wrote: Understood. But, why would I care if the sewer is a good heat sink? I suggested that the sewer be used as a way of discharging water after it had absorbed heat from inside the house (or apartment). I'm interested in finding a medium which is better than hot summer air for cooling the condenser and proposed that water, already cooled from being underground has the same benefit as geoexchange without the cost of digging a hole. - Redler Kirk McLoren wrote: Sewer lines are engineered for the load. Trust me they didnt install larger pipes so you can use them as a heat sink. The smaller the load the cheaper to refrigerate. A koolsuit would take maybe 300 watts. The rule of thumb in ac sizing is a ton per dozen occupants. Kirk _MIKE REDLER [LINK: MAILTO:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]_ wrote: Bob, Joe, et al Sure, that much I knew. But, what I meant by on the cheap was to use the existing infrastructure (i.e. existing, underground water lines) as the ground source instead of requiring a new hole to be dug. Sewer lines could be used as a conduit for sending heat out of the house (or apartment). Perhaps the heated water could be contained and used as domestic hot water for the laundry (for example). I know that there is at least one company in Florida that pumps heat from one's attic into the domestic hot water supply so, it's quite possible. Using city water and sewer lines as conduit for ground sourcing wouldn't be a closed loop and I'm not sure of the volume (cost) of water required for it to be effective. The part I like about it is the apparent low cost in implementing it. In areas of the city where digging a hole gets complicated, this might be an effective alternative. -Redler bob allen wrote: It's being done all over the country. It's called ground source heat pumps. the condenser uses the ground (more specifically water in it) as the heat sink. It is fairly simple set up if you have a well. If not a contractor Takes a back hoe and lays plastic pipe horizontally for hundreds of feet a couple of feet down.[LINK: http://www.geoexchange.org/] http://www.geoexchange.org/now if you mean is anybody rolling their own water cooled air condenser, I don't know.Mike Redler wrote: Hi everyone,As with many in this forum, I've been trying to stay cool today without switching on the AC. It's tempting but,
Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap
Yea. Juan's idea got my attention too. The inefficiencies due to the latent heat of vaporization go "poof!" since the final phase of that H2O is...humidity, right? That is to say, in a perfect world, vapor turned to condensation then back to vapor again after throwing it on the condenser (understanding that that there is no free lunch - 2nd law of thermo.). Re: "Does that mean that the list is closed to the bourgeois?" :-) -Redler Joe Street wrote: Mike Redler wrote: snip Most importantly, your dinner party analogy implies that I can afford all the electricity I want which would make many wonder why I'm on this list, making suggestions about efficient use of energy (even if they do have flaws). I appreciate those who had more constructive observations and more reliable critiques in this thread. Thank you Bob, Joe and Juan. - Redler Hey Mikey; Does that mean that the list is closed to the bourgeois? Damn. I like this list! LOL. Actually Juan has the best idea. The condensate from the evaporator is pretty clean by definition and has got me to thinking about how to use a little lift pump to bring it out to a mister on the condenser coil outside. The lift pump can be runn off the same contactor that is used to power up the compressor. I could even rig up a little float valve that would add a little R.O. water to the bucket used for the lift pump incase the condensate is not enough. Hmm I should try this. It wouldn't be too hard. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The decider decides to give himself more power
Previously, the president only had the power to petition Congress to allow him to grant himself the power to grant more power to himself, Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez said shortly after the ceremony. Now, the president can grant himself the power to interpret new laws however he sees fit, then use that power to interpret a law in such a manner that in turn grants him increased power.(so he gave himself the power to grant himself the power to restrict the power ... ahhh)That article gave me a headache.-Paul On 8/4/06, AltEnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes,just what we need.The Decider deciding he needs more powers. Shheeshhttp://www.theonion.com/content/node/51140 Bush Grants Self Permission To Grant More Power To SelfGet your daily alternative energy newsAlternate Energy Resource Network1000+ news sources-resources updated dailyhttp://www.alternate-energy.netNext Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/Tomorrow-energyhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/Earth_Rescue_International http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Earth_Rescue_International/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Paul Webber[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Food Miles
I was innocently listening to NPR this afternoon, when lo and behold, they had a feature on food miles! http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5618390 Any story on NPR that even MENTIONS food miles illustrates that there IS hope! robert luis rabello "The Edge of Justice" Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
