subject:"\[Biofuel\] It's imperialism, stupid"

Rather tidy qualifier here Mr. Brodie,

> By all means we should look to fixing the causes, if it is legitimate 
for us to do so.

Always nice to leave enough wiggle room as to justify irresponsibility.

Would you care to give me 10:1 odds were I  to guess as to who gets 
assigned to determine "legitimacy?"

> Will you continue the questions past the events to human
> value systems, and their fruit?

Will you include value systems and their role in fruit yielded?

Todd Swearingen

Tim Brodie wrote:

Hi Keith:

Keith Addison wrote:

Lots of argument about what each person thinks their "unimpeachable" 
sources of information say.

Who are you quoting please? I can't find that word used in the 
discussions, let alone in that context.

I'm guilty of reading between the lines.  One group quotes Limbaugh 
and the other Chomsky.  When either source is question, the advocates 
get emotionally defensive.  The implication is that both sources are 
above reproach, even if statements are made to the contrary (ie, I've 
checked on him in case A, B, C, so I'm sure he's fine on D).

[snip]

You're talking the language of blame. As recent history has shown 
rather loudly, it's this kind of thinking that lashes out, desperate 
to find someone to punish, oblivious to all else, such as the reasons 
for the attack, the long chains of cause and consequence that have 
brought us all to "London" as you call it, which stretch back 
sometimes to not quite what you might expect. That's what a lynch mob 
does. So we must lash out again, maybe at altogether the wrong target 
again, and set in motion more chains of causes and consequences that 
bring us to more "London's", just as it's brought us to other places 
and dates. It's called sowing dragon's teeth. Osama bin Laden is 
exactly a dragon's tooth.

This is not what I'm advocating at all.  I'm stating that the proper 
response to a terrorist is no negotiation with or acquiescence to 
their demands.  By all means we should look to fixing the causes, if 
it is legitimate for us to do so.

What happens if our search leads us to understand that the value 
system(s) held by the "oppressed" people are the cause of their 
oppression and poverty.  Does this mean we have the right to work to 
change the value systems of the "oppressed"?

Rather than raise a lynch mob it makes much more sense to find out 
just what happened and trace it back to its causes - who, what, 
where, when, why and how (a good reporter answers all those questions 
in the first 25 words). But where there's lots of blame-talk flying 
around raising such questions can get a person accused of attempting 
to justify the crime, being "soft on terrorists".

Will you continue the questions past the events to human value 
systems, and their fruit?  Most don't seem to have the stomach for 
it.  They like to speak of "tolerance" and "love", and shy back from 
causal links to the actual values held by the majorities in those 
societies.

Anyway, how would you make certain that they're the right perps?

Some are caught, some are killed in attempts, some admit to their 
complicity, some are caught through intercessory investigation, etc.

The picture that's emerging in other posts is that none of the perps 
imprisoned were perps anyway, only a andlful have been charged, 
huindreds of others or more were innocent, and the REAL perps remain 
free. So that didn't work very well. Meanwhile there were 3,192 
terror attacks worldwide last year with 28,433 people wounded, killed 
or kidnapped. So that isn't working very well either.

Better some success and many thousands of lives saved, than doing 
nothing because we don't have a better plan.  I'm all for a better plan.

Anyway, the Brits are coping with it, as one would expect, they're 
tough and level-headed folk. *They* know that there's a hell of a lot 
more to London than just "London".

And I'm very thankful for their stedfastness through it all.

What do you think of Spain's response to "Madrid"?

It's been a while, but my assessment at the time was that I would 
never have "rolled over" like they did.  However, there is a large 
Muslim population in Spain, so I would expect it was the politically 
expedient thing to do.  Not the right thing.

Best regards... Tim

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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

We don't teach history in schools any more.  We teach dates to be tested.  I 
honestly can't remember much from Social Studies class.  I just memorized 
and tested and forgot...but it got me through school.

Ryan
- Original Message - 
From: "Garth & Kim Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

Greetings,
I think we both missed the biggest change that happened during his reign, 
History was replaced with Social Studies.  Now the people have no idea 
what has been done before or where they have been as a people.  They are 
doomed to repeat it.  sad.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 02:40 AM 7/10/2005, you wrote:

Hi Kim:

Kim Travis wrote:

Actually I think Canada was hijacked long before Regan, it was Trudeau 
that did it.  He took a strong independent country and put in all kinds 
of extravegant government services.

He also patriated a constitution that stripped all the rights we had under 
english common law (infinite, unless restricted by statute, precident or 
nature), and implemented a "bill of rights" that gave us back a few under 
a napoleonic law premise (none, unless specified).  For example, Canadians 
don't have the right to own property.

He gave the people $1.31 worth of services for every $1 we paid in taxes. 
This went on for 17 years, since Canada has no term limits.  A whole 
generation came to adulthood and had their kids under this kind of greed, 
so when it came time to pay the piper, well you know how the rest of the 
story goes.  If you are going to ask me where I got the figures, frankly 
I no longer remember the source.  It was researched thoroughly back in my 
college days.

The government (read bureaucrats) has also looked to Sweden as an "ideal" 
form of socialistic governance, and have been systematically trying to 
emulate it through regulation and changes to law.  Compared to what Canada 
was when I was a young man, it's an overbearing, stifling, overregulated 
nightmare.

As to what Canada has been up to for the last 13 years, I am just a 
visitor now and then.  I live in Texas and don't follow the Canadian news 
much.  I have had lots to learn living in a new country and learning how 
to create a sustainable farm.  I was a city girl, till Texas.  I do hear 
my kids and my family B*  but I have no real knowledge of what is 
happening there anymore.

Neither do most of the people that live there, or at least they're too 
apathetic to look like they do.

At 03:59 PM 7/9/2005, chris b. wrote:

hi, kim.  perhaps my understanding of the political trajectory is more 
limited than i give myself credit for, but i've kind of had the notion 
that canada's political process was hijacked in the same way as the 
u.s.' during the reagan era (though perhaps somewhat more discretely?). 
thanks for the confirmation.

and perhaps i'm naive in this, but it does seem to me that canadian 
society hasn't sunk quite as low as down here south of the border.

Actually, when I moved to the US, it was like a breath of fresh air.

all in all, you might call it "u.s.a. /light/"?  ;^,
No, Sweden light.  Canadians generally find being mistaken as Americans as 
extremely distasteful.  They're much too "sophisticated and intelligent" 
to be Americans.

Best regards... Tim

--
We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are.

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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Tim Brodie,

> The choice of the word "fascinating" was in reference to traffic
> on this list, not about the horror of the events of London.

I think you'll find that most people on this list are rather well 
grounded and don't get too knotted up in sensationalism and table talk. 
As I mentioned, most would rather go to the root of the problem and 
spend their energies there rather than round robin at the local watering 
hole.


> Sorry, I have to disagree with your view.  The evaluation of a value 
system
> is in the examination of its fruit.  Many societies in this world are 
oppressive
> places and downright evil places to live; ask any woman or minority 
living there.


Feel free to disagree. But you'd be doing so with blinders. Take a look 
at the value system that you might care to use as the benchmark and then 
look at the fruit. A vast amount of the harvest is completely unedible 
in what is supposed to be a civil society. Iraq and many nations in the 
Arabian region are indeed fruit of a century of meddling on the part of 
the US and Europe, primarily Britain.


> OK, I'll think about this and try to find the context of these 
statements.

> By the way, my experience on taking moral stands is that people call you
> a religious nut and classify you as unfit to lead or foolish or 
ignorant, etc.
> "Who are you to foist your religious view on them?" is commonly said 
or implied.


Morals aren't predicated upon religion. They're predicated upon social 
reason. Just because some overlap or are duplicate between the pious and 
the laymen doesn't mean that ownership belongs to one or the other. It 
belongs to all.


> Hmmm.  So if anywhere in our collective past there was evil done,
> we are not free to address any other evil?  I suppose our "guilt" means
> we should roll over and take our "penance"?  How does the possible
> death of my children in an airplane crash into an office tower make
> retribution for the actions of a past President (if indeed there is the
> complicity you charge)?

Tim. I didn't say that. What I did imply is that it makes a great deal 
of sense to examine the foundation before thinking about the roof. What 
I also implied is that the overwhelming tendency is towards foregoing 
the contribution of the past and how it contributes to the present, 
opting instead only to focus on the immediate. While that is a common 
human trait, it is within our capacity to address our own shortcomings 
every bit as readily as we flock to and rail against the shortcomings of 
others.


> Ah, thanks Todd.  There's a good quote to answer Keith's question..

There's a difference between acknowledging reality in all its facets and 
trying to justify actions. If you really wish to think about 
justification, please, by all means, rationalize and justify the 
behavior of the United States over the past century relative to Arab 
relations. That's a perfect place to start..., at the beginning.


Maybe what needs to be done is stop justifying and start acknowledging.

> I for one continue to work diligently at "the betterment and peace of 
all people".


Is that why you were so willing in your last post to jump on one evil 
without giving the first thought to the evil that predicated it and 
leads to its propigation?


> I've tried to begin that conversation about justice earlier,
> but it wasn't considered worthy of discussion.

Start with honesty. Without it there will never be justice.

>> I think that "evil at the core" is what is being addressed here.
>> The bombs, bloodletting, shortened lives and lost futures is what
>> we'd all like to prevent, even if it seems to be so simple as
>> "de-evolving" and choosing alternative and softer paths.

> I don't know what you mean by this.

Sure you do. The purpose of this list is to lend towards an alternative 
and softer path, not the hardcore, destructive path of present regimes.


> There is no concord
> possible between good and evil.

Yet rather odd that one cannot exist without the other. Even more 
peculiar is what some dictate as "good," despite it's inherantly 
destructive outcome. Good cannot be universally applied, much less 
anyone's interpretation of "good."


> From whence do you get your standard to classify some people as 
"assholes"?  Perhaps in their value system they are completely justified.


Of the latter I have no doubt. Never the less, that doesn't somehow 
magically make their judgement any more sound or the consequences 
thereof any less destructive. Take a look at the fruit. From this they 
can be judged, or at least be discerned as an asshole or not.


> How will attempting to appease terrorists by modifying our behavior
> (and thus legitimizing their actions) help?  Or perhaps I'm missing 
your point?


Oh, you're missing the point entirely Master Brodie. Intentionally I 
tend to think, especially after you caught "the point" so readily 
earlier in your response.


Continuing wrongful behavior only perpetuates wrongful respon

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-10 Thread Hans Reuchlin

Yes, and yes..

However, there remains one problem, the covert actions of governments, i.e.
regime change(or the facilitation thereof) in far away countries..
One country comes to mind, Venezuela.
With it's oil riches, and firebrand president Chavez( hey, they tried to
oust him short of killing him), this country is soo nice, people are nice,
no civil war, etc.and lot's of money being spent on schools, clinics,
infrastructure etc.
In the eyes of Washington a complete heretic and pathetic display of
emotion... caring for 85% of the population, instaed of tax breaks for the 5
ruling families??
I know that should things go bad in the Middle East, "regime change" in
Venezuela is on the short list.
Just have a bad feeling, having travelled there a lot, running into
"backpackers" with a skewed story and a perverse interest in snorkling at
the end of the airfield in Los Roques.
One passed himself off as a teacher in computer sciences; I asked him if he
was PC or MAC, and couldn't awnser the question.. My read, stupid seal..
And then there is Nigeria, propped up by us.

Just a rant and rave..

h
- Original Message -
From: "robert luis rabello" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


> Tim Brodie wrote:
>
>
> > Sure.  I was speaking specifically about the event of 7 7.
>
> Indeed, you were.  And though you were correct in that nobody had
> specifically mentioned the events of last Thursday, we have discussed
> the overall milieu in which terrorist crimes breed MANY times in this
> forum.  Americans like me seem very reluctant to admit any culpability
> that feeds the problem, nor do we generally accept responsibility for
> civilian casualties when the blunt cudgel of our military when is
> ordered to respond with overwhelming force.  We like to see ourselves
> as "the good guys" and those terrible folk who kill innocent civilians
> as "the bad guys", but this very polarization actually contributes
> significantly to the spread of terrorism.
>
>
> > Thank you. They were also military acts. I've got a sense from past
> > postings that many folks say they can understand why these people commit
> > these acts (without advocating them or legitimizing them).  I can't
> > really understand why killing people that are truly unconnected to
> > primary causes is "understandable".  Perhaps I've misunderstood the gist
> > of the posts.
>
> I define military acts as those perpetrated by nation states,
> utilizing soldiers in uniform.  (There are minor exceptions, but this
> is an adequate working definition.)  The United States military is, by
> far, the most technologically advanced and capable military machine in
> our world's history.  We spend far more on "defense" than any other
> nation (or, in fact, many combinations of nations!) on earth.  How can
> anyone reasonably expect an individual who feels outraged by our
> policies and utterly powerless to contend with our military might to
> stand toe to toe with such an adversary?
>
>
> > What do you mean by "classic sense".  Do you mean, a nationality or
> > uniform?  If so, then no.  However, the "enemy" is composed of
> > cooperative individuals that embrace a common value system.
>
> Hence, the enemy is ill defined.  Because we cannot identify him, we
> prosecute our "war" in a manner than only breeds more of HIS kind.
> How can we identify the value system held by another human being?  Why
> then, do we insist on using an institution developed for the sake of
> national defense, to vent our rage against such a nebulous enemy
> wherever we think him to be?  Is this effective?  Is it even possible
> to "win"?
>
>
> > If I understand you, we've misidentified the enemy and created new
enemies?
>
> We may not have misidentified the enemy.  Our blundering prosecution
> of him, and the means used toward that end, are creating a groundswell
> of support among people who might not have thought of us badly, had we
> behaved in a different way.  To paraphrase Sting, blowing up the
> terrorists' children only proves the terrorists right.
>
>
> > Somewhat.  There have been attacks prevented, such as the planned
> > "demolition" of the Brooklyn Bridge.
>
> And this was accomplished by attacking Afghanistan and Iraq?  Did
> preventing this attack require close air support?  Perhaps more subtle
> means were employed.  Am I correct in this?
>
>
> > There are things worth dying for (defensive).  There are no things worth
> > murdering for (aggression).  There are things worth killing

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-10 Thread capt3d

i'm far from convinced that it was al queda, or even arab/islamist terrorists 
of any stripe.

-chris b.

In a message dated 7/9/05 11:43:33 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< I find it fascinating that virtually nothing has been said in this forum 

about London.  Lots of argument about what each person thinks their 

"unimpeachable" sources of information say.  Nothing about the current 

event that demonstrates the face of this evil, and the nature of the 

value systems that executed these actions. >>

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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid- limbaugh

LOL!
- Original Message - 
From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid- limbaugh

Doug,

Amazing.

Hitler would have been a guaranteed success as American talk show host.

Hakan

At 04:51 AM 7/10/2005, you wrote:

Hakan,

 Rush Limbaugh represents the views of a substantial number of Americans,
enough that we have the president and legislator we have today.  Another
broadcast celebrity here in America is Paul Harvey and some recent remarks
by him advocating slavery, genocide and the use of nuclear and biological
weapons on his program have pretty much flown under the radar.  Visit
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ericzorn/weblog/archives/2005/06/paul_harvey_ah.html
to read his remarks.  Harvey makes his living as a salesman and good
salesmen do not say things that could adversely impact sales.  Harvey has
been selling for over 30 years that I'm aware of, so he is a good 
salesmen.

He was correct in believing that enough Americans wouldn't be outraged to
substantially affect sales.  He may have back-peddled, but I don't listen 
to

his programs on a regular basis, haven't done so for a long time.  Luck of
the draw that I heard that program that I did.  There are good people in
America, I have to hope they will prevail and the rest of the world allows
them enough time to do so.
Doug
 - Original Message -
From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

:
: Ryan,
:
: At 05:23 PM 7/9/2005, you wrote:
: 
:
: >What is the probability that
: >they would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the Americans
: >surprised, when the Iraqis do not love them? Is it not understandable
that
: >some of the Iraqis want to kill Americans, how would you react in their
: >situation?
:
: I posted that, but you only repeated a part of it. The introduction to
this
: questions was and here is what I wrote,
:
: "I always think about some obvious realities, when Americans come up
: with this dreams about the future. Iraq is a country with a population
that
: to 80% consist of old people, widows and Fatherless children under 15
years
: of age. The Americans have directly or indirectly been involved in 
making
: the women widows and the children fatherless. What is the probability 
that

: they would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the Americans
: surprised, when the Iraqis do not love them? Is it not understandable 
that

: some of the Iraqis want to kill Americans, how would you react in their
: situation?"
:
:
:
: >I have brought this up to several poeple, they all just look confused,
: >like they can't handle the possibility that we are the bad guys.  I use
: >this example:
: >If France decided that George W. Bush was a threat to them and said, 
well

: >lets make a preemptive strike, then they came here and said to us, "we
are
: >liberating you from this oppressive government."
: >You can bet on the majority of the American population picking up some
: >guns and fighting the intruders.  The news would say it was our only 
hope

: >for survival.  And the NRA (National Rifle Association) would have a
field day.
: >Most people still cannot grasp the concept.
: >
: >Here is the link to that "respected" talk show host.  This is the 
entire

: >transcript, all of what he said.
: >
:
>http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_070705/content/rush_is_right.gu
est.html
: >
:
: I do not normally read or listen to him, because for me as a foreigner 
he
: is neither famous or a normal diet, but did it now and have the 
following

: questions.
:
: Do many Americans listen to this?
: Are you not afraid when you hear his views?
: You know that I sometimes think that Americans are a bit naive, but I 
will

: not go so far as that they belive this "whacko", or do they?
:
: I did a calculation once, based on Iraqi family sizes with probable 
number

: of relatives and close friends, and draw the conclusion. That it was
almost
: impossible, or at least very rare, that any Iraqi did not knew a person
: well, that had been killed by the Americans.
:
: With this background, how likely is it that US would be welcomed and 
loved

: as liberators?
: Is not the thought or expectation of that Iraqis would love the 
Americans

a
: bit naive?
: Based on civil wars and other occupations, wouldn't it take 80 to 100
years
: before Iraq can get over this with the Americans?
: Would it not be the responsibility of any Iraqi or American, that love 
his

: family, his friends and his country, to fight an occupier?
: If you answer no to the above question, does it not make your country,
: including US, very easy to occupy and subdue?
:
: Hakan
:
:
:
: >This w

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-10 Thread robert luis rabello


Tim Brodie wrote:



Sure.  I was speaking specifically about the event of 7 7.


	Indeed, you were.  And though you were correct in that nobody had 
specifically mentioned the events of last Thursday, we have discussed 
the overall milieu in which terrorist crimes breed MANY times in this 
forum.  Americans like me seem very reluctant to admit any culpability 
that feeds the problem, nor do we generally accept responsibility for 
civilian casualties when the blunt cudgel of our military when is 
ordered to respond with overwhelming force.  We like to see ourselves 
as "the good guys" and those terrible folk who kill innocent civilians 
as "the bad guys", but this very polarization actually contributes 
significantly to the spread of terrorism.



Thank you. They were also military acts. I've got a sense from past 
postings that many folks say they can understand why these people commit 
these acts (without advocating them or legitimizing them).  I can't 
really understand why killing people that are truly unconnected to 
primary causes is "understandable".  Perhaps I've misunderstood the gist 
of the posts.


	I define military acts as those perpetrated by nation states, 
utilizing soldiers in uniform.  (There are minor exceptions, but this 
is an adequate working definition.)  The United States military is, by 
far, the most technologically advanced and capable military machine in 
our world's history.  We spend far more on "defense" than any other 
nation (or, in fact, many combinations of nations!) on earth.  How can 
anyone reasonably expect an individual who feels outraged by our 
policies and utterly powerless to contend with our military might to 
stand toe to toe with such an adversary?



What do you mean by "classic sense".  Do you mean, a nationality or 
uniform?  If so, then no.  However, the "enemy" is composed of 
cooperative individuals that embrace a common value system.


	Hence, the enemy is ill defined.  Because we cannot identify him, we 
prosecute our "war" in a manner than only breeds more of HIS kind. 
How can we identify the value system held by another human being?  Why 
then, do we insist on using an institution developed for the sake of 
national defense, to vent our rage against such a nebulous enemy 
wherever we think him to be?  Is this effective?  Is it even possible 
to "win"?




If I understand you, we've misidentified the enemy and created new enemies?


	We may not have misidentified the enemy.  Our blundering prosecution 
of him, and the means used toward that end, are creating a groundswell 
of support among people who might not have thought of us badly, had we 
behaved in a different way.  To paraphrase Sting, blowing up the 
terrorists' children only proves the terrorists right.



Somewhat.  There have been attacks prevented, such as the planned 
"demolition" of the Brooklyn Bridge.


	And this was accomplished by attacking Afghanistan and Iraq?  Did 
preventing this attack require close air support?  Perhaps more subtle 
means were employed.  Am I correct in this?



There are things worth dying for (defensive).  There are no things worth 
murdering for (aggression).  There are things worth killing to preserve 
(defensive).  [This is an important distinction.]  We must be very 
careful to ensure that we are taking truly defensive actions.


	Such care requires careful introspection.  The policies being 
promulgated by Mr. Bush's administration REQUIRE an offensive and pre 
emptive response to terrorism, which is, by definition, aggressive. 
This is an outgrowth of the feeble, knee-jerk reactions we have 
traditionally employed as long as I can remember.  Perhaps a 
fundamentally different approach, one not involving bombs and bullets 
at all, would be cheaper and far more effective.


	"If your enemy is hungry, feed him.  If your enemy is thirsty, give 
him something to drink."


	In essence, we turn an enemy into a friend by listening, by being 
fair, by cooperating.  The culture of the biofuels list promotes 
respect and cooperation in working to solve problems, even among 
people with diverse backgrounds (some very educated, some not), 
religions (we even have pagan subscribers!) languages (though we 
communicate in English, for many of us, it's at least a second 
language) and nationalities (membership is mostly non American).  This 
path is not always easy.  But in truth, the only effective response to 
violence is to avoid being violent.  The person who accepts the last 
blow is the one who ends the fight.  So let's end it!


Is my point more clear now?



All the best


To you as well, Tim!



robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782>

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-10 Thread Hakan Falk



Tim,

I am a bit curious, how long have you lived in Sweden or maybe you are 
Swedish? Did you know that most of todays "socialistic governance" in 
Sweden, was modelled after US ideas and governance?


What do you know of Napoleonic law, other than that the Hansa and Napolean 
system was the basis for almost all national governance? Does not Napolean 
law have the strongest protection for individual property rights, this 
because a corner stone in Napolean law is the notary system.


By the way, Britain/England does not have a constitution.

Hakan

At 09:40 AM 7/10/2005, you wrote:

Hi Kim:

Kim Travis wrote:

Actually I think Canada was hijacked long before Regan, it was Trudeau 
that did it.  He took a strong independent country and put in all kinds 
of extravegant government services.


He also patriated a constitution that stripped all the rights we had under 
english common law (infinite, unless restricted by statute, precident or 
nature), and implemented a "bill of rights" that gave us back a few under 
a napoleonic law premise (none, unless specified).  For example, Canadians 
don't have the right to own property.


He gave the people $1.31 worth of services for every $1 we paid in 
taxes.  This went on for 17 years, since Canada has no term limits.  A 
whole generation came to adulthood and had their kids under this kind of 
greed, so when it came time to pay the piper, well you know how the rest 
of the story goes.  If you are going to ask me where I got the figures, 
frankly I no longer remember the source.  It was researched thoroughly 
back in my college days.


The government (read bureaucrats) has also looked to Sweden as an "ideal" 
form of socialistic governance, and have been systematically trying to 
emulate it through regulation and changes to law.  Compared to what Canada 
was when I was a young man, it's an overbearing, stifling, overregulated 
nightmare.


As to what Canada has been up to for the last 13 years, I am just a 
visitor now and then.  I live in Texas and don't follow the Canadian news 
much.  I have had lots to learn living in a new country and learning how 
to create a sustainable farm.  I was a city girl, till Texas.  I do hear 
my kids and my family B*  but I have no real knowledge of what is 
happening there anymore.


Neither do most of the people that live there, or at least they're too 
apathetic to look like they do.



At 03:59 PM 7/9/2005, chris b. wrote:

hi, kim.  perhaps my understanding of the political trajectory is more 
limited than i give myself credit for, but i've kind of had the notion 
that canada's political process was hijacked in the same way as the 
u.s.' during the reagan era (though perhaps somewhat more 
discretely?).  thanks for the confirmation.


and perhaps i'm naive in this, but it does seem to me that canadian 
society hasn't sunk quite as low as down here south of the border.

Actually, when I moved to the US, it was like a breath of fresh air.


all in all, you might call it "u.s.a. /light/"?  ;^,
No, Sweden light.  Canadians generally find being mistaken as Americans as 
extremely distasteful.  They're much too "sophisticated and intelligent" 
to be Americans.


Best regards... Tim

--
We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are.




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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-10 Thread Hakan Falk



Tim,

It is amazing that the word terrorist is so often used without any valid 
definition. Too often it is a label on people who oppose a bully.


With the way the label terrorist is used today, US is a product of 
terrorism against the English and French. During WWII, the poor Germans 
were quite often the victims of terrorists in countries that they occupied. 
In the same way as poor US is victims of terrorists in Iraq. The only body 
that maybe can legally decide about armed interventions, is UN and 
therefore the Iraq occupation is not legal. US can with good reasons be 
defined as internationally criminal and also some of the methods that are 
used.


The terror bombings of Baghdad as an introduction of the occupation, was 
with without any doubts an act of terror. The protection of the Iraqi oil 
ministry and not the most valuable museums on earth, was criminal according 
to international law. Not taking the responsibility for the security of the 
civil population, is a war crime.


I read the legal opinions about Afghanistan and Al Queda and the warnings 
that the administration could be tried for war crimes. Cuba was a way of 
trying to minimize that risk. When the administration then applied the same 
philosophies on Iraq, then it is no longer doubts, in that situation the 
war crimes and violations of the Geneva convention are clear. The US 
administration take the risk to be tried for war crimes, if they go abroad 
or US finally decide to deal with it.


It is almost stupid and completely new, to claim that armed resistance 
against an occupying armed force is terrorism. When an occupying force uses 
methods to subdue resistance, that endanger the security of the local 
population and causes "collateral damages", it is by definition a war 
crime. The Geneva convention is dead and irrelevant, completely abused by 
Israel and US.


It's imperialism, stupid

Hakan


At 08:52 AM 7/10/2005, you wrote:

Hi Keith:

Keith Addison wrote:

Lots of argument about what each person thinks their "unimpeachable" 
sources of information say.


Who are you quoting please? I can't find that word used in the 
discussions, let alone in that context.


I'm guilty of reading between the lines.  One group quotes Limbaugh and 
the other Chomsky.  When either source is question, the advocates get 
emotionally defensive.  The implication is that both sources are above 
reproach, even if statements are made to the contrary (ie, I've checked on 
him in case A, B, C, so I'm sure he's fine on D).

[snip]

You're talking the language of blame. As recent history has shown rather 
loudly, it's this kind of thinking that lashes out, desperate to find 
someone to punish, oblivious to all else, such as the reasons for the 
attack, the long chains of cause and consequence that have brought us all 
to "London" as you call it, which stretch back sometimes to not quite 
what you might expect. That's what a lynch mob does. So we must lash out 
again, maybe at altogether the wrong target again, and set in motion more 
chains of causes and consequences that bring us to more "London's", just 
as it's brought us to other places and dates. It's called sowing dragon's 
teeth. Osama bin Laden is exactly a dragon's tooth.


This is not what I'm advocating at all.  I'm stating that the proper 
response to a terrorist is no negotiation with or acquiescence to their 
demands.  By all means we should look to fixing the causes, if it is 
legitimate for us to do so.


What happens if our search leads us to understand that the value system(s) 
held by the "oppressed" people are the cause of their oppression and 
poverty.  Does this mean we have the right to work to change the value 
systems of the "oppressed"?


Rather than raise a lynch mob it makes much more sense to find out just 
what happened and trace it back to its causes - who, what, where, when, 
why and how (a good reporter answers all those questions in the first 25 
words). But where there's lots of blame-talk flying around raising such 
questions can get a person accused of attempting to justify the crime, 
being "soft on terrorists".


Will you continue the questions past the events to human value systems, 
and their fruit?  Most don't seem to have the stomach for it.  They like 
to speak of "tolerance" and "love", and shy back from causal links to the 
actual values held by the majorities in those societies.



Anyway, how would you make certain that they're the right perps?


Some are caught, some are killed in attempts, some admit to their 
complicity, some are caught through intercessory investigation, etc.


The picture that's emerging in other posts is that none of the perps 
imprisoned were perps anyway, only a andlful have been charged, huindreds 
of others or more were innocent, and the REAL perps remain free. So that 
didn't work very well. Meanwhile there were 3,192 terror attacks 
worldwide last year with 28,433 people wounded, killed or kidnapped. So 
that isn't work

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid- limbaugh

2005-07-10 Thread Richard Littrell


Dear Hakan,

What do you mean "would have"?  Haven't you ever listened to Michael Savage?

Rick

Hakan Falk wrote:



Doug,

Amazing.

Hitler would have been a guaranteed success as American talk show host.

Hakan



 




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Re: question on desert storm was Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

Kim,

> Will you please provide references for this?

> Granted, Kuwait was invaded. Granted, Kuwait was
> slant drilling into Iraqi oilfields. Granted, Iraq took no
> effort to resolve the issue diplomatically.

Which part? I presume the former and the latter are rather 
uncontestable. So as to the slant drilling,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/iraq/britain_iraq_07.shtml

You may notice a small, table of contents in brown text on the left of 
the BBC page. It gives historical background as to Iraq's birth, 
development and the ongoing border disputes with and recognition of Kuwait.

A few other quick references.

http://www.nmhschool.org/tthornton/mehistorydatabase/gulf_war.htm
http://www.rense.com/general3/slant.htm

A Google search would give you a few dozen.

Todd Swearingen

Garth & Kim Travis wrote:

Greetings Todd,

While I was buried under a ton of philosophy books during desert 
storm, back in Canada, I have never heard the following:

At 09:20 PM 7/9/2005, you wrote:

Granted, Kuwait was invaded. Granted, Kuwait was slant drilling into 
Iraqi oilfields. Granted, Iraq took no effort to resolve the issue 
diplomatically.

Todd Swearingen

Will you please provide references for this?

Bright Blessings,
Kim

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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid- limbaugh

> Hitler would have been a guaranteed
> success as American talk show host.

Some similarities Hakan, but even Limbaugh is only marginally "popular." 
Most of my right-wing friends see him for precisely what he is - a 
showman who's painted himself into a corner. A lucrative corner at that.

Even so, Americans would probably always opt for the bigger, more 
bellicose, fat man in a tie before they would a small, thin, guy 
sporting brown dress fatigues, a paint brush on his upper lip and trying 
to hide his bald spot with a comb over.

They would also tend to exercise their "Christian principles" of 
forgiveness and give a higher rating to the hipocrit-once-drug-fiend who 
knows their favored rhetoric backwards and forwards rather than a rabid 
little zealot.

On the other hand, at least in today's era, Herr Adolf  could probably 
be cast on some obscure network, like., oh., perhaps CBS? Or 
maybe the After Hours Disney Channel?

Todd Swearingen

Hakan Falk wrote:

Doug,

Amazing.

Hitler would have been a guaranteed success as American talk show host.

Hakan

At 04:51 AM 7/10/2005, you wrote:

Hakan,

 Rush Limbaugh represents the views of a substantial number of 
Americans,

enough that we have the president and legislator we have today.  Another
broadcast celebrity here in America is Paul Harvey and some recent 
remarks
by him advocating slavery, genocide and the use of nuclear and 
biological

weapons on his program have pretty much flown under the radar.  Visit
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ericzorn/weblog/archives/2005/06/paul_harvey_ah.html 

to read his remarks.  Harvey makes his living as a salesman and good
salesmen do not say things that could adversely impact sales.  Harvey 
has
been selling for over 30 years that I'm aware of, so he is a good 
salesmen.
He was correct in believing that enough Americans wouldn't be 
outraged to
substantially affect sales.  He may have back-peddled, but I don't 
listen to
his programs on a regular basis, haven't done so for a long time.  
Luck of

the draw that I heard that program that I did.  There are good people in
America, I have to hope they will prevail and the rest of the world 
allows

them enough time to do so.
Doug
 - Original Message -
From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

:
: Ryan,
:
: At 05:23 PM 7/9/2005, you wrote:
: 
:
: >What is the probability that
: >they would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the 
Americans

: >surprised, when the Iraqis do not love them? Is it not understandable
that
: >some of the Iraqis want to kill Americans, how would you react in 
their

: >situation?
:
: I posted that, but you only repeated a part of it. The introduction to
this
: questions was and here is what I wrote,
:
: "I always think about some obvious realities, when Americans come up
: with this dreams about the future. Iraq is a country with a population
that
: to 80% consist of old people, widows and Fatherless children under 15
years
: of age. The Americans have directly or indirectly been involved in 
making
: the women widows and the children fatherless. What is the 
probability that
: they would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the 
Americans
: surprised, when the Iraqis do not love them? Is it not 
understandable that
: some of the Iraqis want to kill Americans, how would you react in 
their

: situation?"
:
:
:
: >I have brought this up to several poeple, they all just look 
confused,
: >like they can't handle the possibility that we are the bad guys.  
I use

: >this example:
: >If France decided that George W. Bush was a threat to them and 
said, well
: >lets make a preemptive strike, then they came here and said to us, 
"we

are
: >liberating you from this oppressive government."
: >You can bet on the majority of the American population picking up 
some
: >guns and fighting the intruders.  The news would say it was our 
only hope

: >for survival.  And the NRA (National Rifle Association) would have a
field day.
: >Most people still cannot grasp the concept.
: >
: >Here is the link to that "respected" talk show host.  This is the 
entire

: >transcript, all of what he said.
: >
:
>http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_070705/content/rush_is_right.gu 

est.html
: >
:
: I do not normally read or listen to him, because for me as a 
foreigner he
: is neither famous or a normal diet, but did it now and have the 
following

: questions.
:
: Do many Americans listen to this?
: Are you not afraid when you hear his views?
: You know that I sometimes think that Americans are a bit naive, but 
I will

: not go so far as that they belive this "whacko", or do they?
:
: I did a calculation once, based on I

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-10 Thread Keith Addison

Hello Tim

I finally figured it out, too improbable for me.

> Personally? Were I of Arab descent? I'd be mad as hell. And knowing
> how easily it is for humans to be impatient and act or react rather
> than wait for a slow, bureaucratic, greedy internatiionally intwined
> monster to even begin to deliberate what it might destroy or
> compromise with its next bite, it's not a far reach to understand
> where the underpinnings of all this originate from.

Ah, thanks Todd.  There's a good quote to answer Keith's question...

>> There is nothing that can justify these  actions,
>
> Who wants to justify them?

This sounds like a justification to me.  Is that a fair statement?

It's not me you're accusing of trying to justify it, it's Todd, via 
some sort of cognitive dissonance that's just as strange. As everyone 
else has been doing, he points to the causes you said we should be 
looking to fix, but it sounds like a justification to you and you 
talk of appeasing terrorists.

That's what I said you'd do in the first place:

Rather than raise a lynch mob it makes much more sense to find out 
just what happened and trace it back to its causes - who, what, 
where, when, why and how (a good reporter answers all those 
questions in the first 25 words). But where there's lots of 
blame-talk flying around raising such questions can get a person 
accused of attempting to justify the crime, being "soft on 
terrorists".

Which is why I asked you who wants to justify it - you'd already 
decided we did. I said this too:

You have these impressions of what goes on here, of what people here 
think and do, mostly a-priori impressions, just labels really. Then 
you do some misreading and end up with "facts" to corroborate your 
impressions. You've done it time and again, all very circular. And 
tiresome. It's the same with the archive link you can't find about 
your view of "justice", the same with your arguments about 
evolution. Always the same.

Case now rests on every count. You're being true to form Tim. This is 
the second time I've seen you coming right at the start, you're more 
transparent than you know, though I'm sure it all convinces you.

Sure you're entitled to your opinion, but are you entitled to this?

These are not actions, they're responses. If you can't see that it 
can only be because you don't want to. You're not looking at 
realities, you're looking at what you might be more comfortable with.

In such an issue, where people are getting killed all the time, truth 
is not to be sacrificed for the comforts of self-induced oblivion. 
But we should stand by and let you draw a veil over the loud and 
continuing worldwide chorus stating the totally obvious, that the 
root cause of all these evils is ongoing US foreign policy, you're 
entitled to that? I don't think so.

It's just more denialism, which is just another kind of lying. 
Nelson's blind eye may have saved England but when you use the same 
tecnique to try to absolve yourself and your society of 
responsibility it makes a really lousy excuse.

Let's have no more a-priori accusations of justification and 
appeasement, no more self-fulfilling prophecies such as that 
"tolerance" and "love" is our recipe for dealing with terrorists 
while we shy away from the causal links that you're shying away from 
with all this claptrap, no more prevarication. Huh, some hope.

Keith Addison

Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 00:36:19 +0900
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Cc:
Bcc:
X-Attachments:

Hello Tim

Hi Keith:

Keith Addison wrote:

>> Lots of argument about what each person thinks their "unimpeachable"
>> sources of information say.
>
> Who are you quoting please? I can't find that word used in the
> discussions, let alone in that context.

I'm guilty of reading between the lines.

Whether you're reading between the lines or not you're not reading 
correctly, and that's not the first time. Your sig says "We do not 
see things as they are; we see things as we are," but you tend to 
see things that simply aren't there, and not see things that are 
there. When it comes down to who said what and there's an archives 
of it it's not just a matter of opinion or of filtration through 
"different value systems", it's verifiable. Thus:

One group quotes Limbaugh and
the other Chomsky.  When either source is question, the advocates get
emotionally defensive.  The implication is that both sources are above
reproach, even if statements are made to the contrary (ie, I've checked
on him in case A, B, C, so I'm sure he'

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid- limbaugh: Paul Harvey

2005-07-10 Thread the skapegoat

That is pretty disturbing.  However, he is implicating Saudi Arabia.  Interesting that a right wing-type would be doing that...Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Doug>Hakan,>> Rush Limbaugh represents the views of a substantial number of Americans,>enough that we have the president and legislator we have today. Another>broadcast celebrity here in America is Paul Harvey and some recent remarks>by him advocating slavery, genocide and the use of nuclear and biological>weapons on his program have pretty much flown under the radar.Pretty much, but there's this anyway:http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2569Action AlertPaul Harvey's Tribute to Slavery, Nukes, GenocideHateful rant shows Disney's double standard on speechJuly 1, 2005FAIR-LFairness & Accuracy In ReportingMedia analysis, critiques and activism>Visit>http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ericzorn/weblog/archive >s/2005/06/paul_harvey_ah.html>to
 read his remarks. Harvey makes his living as a salesman and good>salesmen do not say things that could adversely impact sales. Harvey has>been selling for over 30 years that I'm aware of, so he is a good salesmen.>He was correct in believing that enough Americans wouldn't be outraged to>substantially affect sales. He may have back-peddled, but I don't listen to>his programs on a regular basis, haven't done so for a long time. Luck of>the draw that I heard that program that I did. There are good people in>America,Most?>I have to hope they will prevail and the rest of the world allows>them enough time to do so.I think maybe all of us are hoping that very fervently.All bestKeith>Doug> - Original Message ->From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>To: >Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 7:22 PM>Subject:
 Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid>>>:>: Ryan,>:>: At 05:23 PM 7/9/2005, you wrote:>: >:>: >What is the probability that>: >they would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the Americans___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___
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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-10 Thread Garth & Kim Travis


Greetings,
I think we both missed the biggest change that happened during his reign, 
History was replaced with Social Studies.  Now the people have no idea what 
has been done before or where they have been as a people.  They are doomed 
to repeat it.  sad.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 02:40 AM 7/10/2005, you wrote:

Hi Kim:

Kim Travis wrote:

Actually I think Canada was hijacked long before Regan, it was Trudeau 
that did it.  He took a strong independent country and put in all kinds 
of extravegant government services.


He also patriated a constitution that stripped all the rights we had under 
english common law (infinite, unless restricted by statute, precident or 
nature), and implemented a "bill of rights" that gave us back a few under 
a napoleonic law premise (none, unless specified).  For example, Canadians 
don't have the right to own property.


He gave the people $1.31 worth of services for every $1 we paid in 
taxes.  This went on for 17 years, since Canada has no term limits.  A 
whole generation came to adulthood and had their kids under this kind of 
greed, so when it came time to pay the piper, well you know how the rest 
of the story goes.  If you are going to ask me where I got the figures, 
frankly I no longer remember the source.  It was researched thoroughly 
back in my college days.


The government (read bureaucrats) has also looked to Sweden as an "ideal" 
form of socialistic governance, and have been systematically trying to 
emulate it through regulation and changes to law.  Compared to what Canada 
was when I was a young man, it's an overbearing, stifling, overregulated 
nightmare.


As to what Canada has been up to for the last 13 years, I am just a 
visitor now and then.  I live in Texas and don't follow the Canadian news 
much.  I have had lots to learn living in a new country and learning how 
to create a sustainable farm.  I was a city girl, till Texas.  I do hear 
my kids and my family B*  but I have no real knowledge of what is 
happening there anymore.


Neither do most of the people that live there, or at least they're too 
apathetic to look like they do.



At 03:59 PM 7/9/2005, chris b. wrote:

hi, kim.  perhaps my understanding of the political trajectory is more 
limited than i give myself credit for, but i've kind of had the notion 
that canada's political process was hijacked in the same way as the 
u.s.' during the reagan era (though perhaps somewhat more 
discretely?).  thanks for the confirmation.


and perhaps i'm naive in this, but it does seem to me that canadian 
society hasn't sunk quite as low as down here south of the border.

Actually, when I moved to the US, it was like a breath of fresh air.


all in all, you might call it "u.s.a. /light/"?  ;^,
No, Sweden light.  Canadians generally find being mistaken as Americans as 
extremely distasteful.  They're much too "sophisticated and intelligent" 
to be Americans.


Best regards... Tim

--
We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are.


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[Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-10 Thread Keith Addison

Hello Tim

Hi Keith:

Keith Addison wrote:

>> Lots of argument about what each person thinks their "unimpeachable"
>> sources of information say.
>
> Who are you quoting please? I can't find that word used in the
> discussions, let alone in that context.

I'm guilty of reading between the lines.

Whether you're reading between the lines or not you're not reading 
correctly, and that's not the first time. Your sig says "We do not 
see things as they are; we see things as we are," but you tend to see 
things that simply aren't there, and not see things that are there. 
When it comes down to who said what and there's an archives of it 
it's not just a matter of opinion or of filtration through "different 
value systems", it's verifiable. Thus:

One group quotes Limbaugh and
the other Chomsky.  When either source is question, the advocates get
emotionally defensive.  The implication is that both sources are above
reproach, even if statements are made to the contrary (ie, I've checked
on him in case A, B, C, so I'm sure he's fine on D).

It didn't happen. I posted an article by Chomsky and Jerry sneered at 
Chomsky. I didn't get defensive or emotional about it (LOL!), I gave 
him some information and a couple of links. What he'd said wasn't 
true and he was unable to defend his claims.

Someone else, Jill, quoted Limbaugh. When questioned on it she was 
unable to respond, there was no "checking" done of Limbaugh in an 
attempt to substantiate his views, nothing further was offered in 
support of Limbaugh.

You have these impressions of what goes on here, of what people here 
think and do, mostly a-priori impressions, just labels really. Then 
you do some misreading and end up with "facts" to corroborate your 
impressions. You've done it time and again, all very circular. And 
tiresome. It's the same with the archive link you can't find about 
your view of "justice", the same with your arguments about evolution. 
Always the same.

[snip]

> You're talking the language of blame. As recent history has shown
> rather loudly, it's this kind of thinking that lashes out, desperate
> to find someone to punish, oblivious to all else, such as the reasons
> for the attack, the long chains of cause and consequence that have
> brought us all to "London" as you call it, which stretch back
> sometimes to not quite what you might expect. That's what a lynch mob
> does. So we must lash out again, maybe at altogether the wrong target
> again, and set in motion more chains of causes and consequences that
> bring us to more "London's", just as it's brought us to other places
> and dates. It's called sowing dragon's teeth. Osama bin Laden is
> exactly a dragon's tooth.

This is not what I'm advocating at all.  I'm stating that the proper
response to a terrorist is no negotiation with or acquiescence to their
demands.  By all means we should look to fixing the causes, if it is
legitimate for us to do so.

You ARE talking the language of blame, and, as it's steadily 
emerging, you're thinking that way too. Several people have now 
mentioned some of the root causes you say we should look to fixing, 
but you say we shy from the hard realities, and you talk of 
"appeasement".

What happens if our search leads us to understand that the value
system(s) held by the "oppressed" people are the cause of their
oppression and poverty.  Does this mean we have the right to work to
change the value systems of the "oppressed"?

You're obviously going to focus on this and blinker out any other 
possibilities. We could argue about value systems all week and never 
have to look at the real causes. They're glaringly obvious and 
horribly numerous, while it's quite hard to find any obvious 
manifestation of errant value systems on the part of the "perps" 
being a root cause. These are not actions, they're responses. If you 
can't see that it can only be because you don't want to. You're not 
looking at realities, you're looking at what you might be more 
comfortable with.

> Rather than raise a lynch mob it makes much more sense to find out
> just what happened and trace it back to its causes - who, what, where,
> when, why and how (a good reporter answers all those questions in the
> first 25 words). But where there's lots of blame-talk flying around
> raising such questions can get a person accused of attempting to
> justify the crime, being "soft on terrorists".

Will you continue the questions past the events to human value systems,
and their fruit?

You can throw up your smokescreen all by yourself, I won't help you. 
Several other list members have now discussed what's at the root of 
it, they all say much the same obvious thing, if you haven't read 
their messages you should have. By comparison, the horse you insist 
on backing is a non-starter, it's got no ground to run on. It does 
have one very attractive aspect though - if you can get that horse to 
win, or even to run convincingly, then that removes any 
responsibility for

question on desert storm was Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-10 Thread Garth & Kim Travis


Greetings Todd,

While I was buried under a ton of philosophy books during desert storm, 
back in Canada, I have never heard the following:


At 09:20 PM 7/9/2005, you wrote:

Granted, Kuwait was invaded. Granted, Kuwait was slant drilling into Iraqi 
oilfields. Granted, Iraq took no effort to resolve the issue diplomatically.


Todd Swearingen


Will you please provide references for this?

Bright Blessings,
Kim 




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Re[2]: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-10 Thread Gustl Steiner-Zehender

Hallo Todd,


Amen and well said brother.

Happy Happy,

Gustl

Saturday, 09 July, 2005, 22:20:29, you wrote:

AE> Tim Brodie,

AE>  > I find it fascinating that virtually nothing has been said in this forum
AE>  > about London.  Lots of argument about what each person thinks
AE>  > their "unimpeachable" sources of information say.  Nothing about
AE>  > the current event that demonstrates the face of this evil, and the
AE>  > nature of the value systems that executed these actions.

AE> Why would you find it "fascinating?" People build bombs. People blow up 
AE> and never see their loved ones again. People get maimed, scarred and 
AE> disfigured for life and perhaps never look at anything in the same 
AE> fashion again, much less in a natural fashion.

AE> That's not fascinating. That's horror.

AE> Perhaps what is fascinating is the fact that the recipient nations 
AE> remain defiant in their industrial, colonial, imperial and military 
AE> endeavors, refusing to address the core of the problem, in turn giving 
AE> no cause for insurgents, terrorists or "freedom fighters" to back down 
AE> either.

AE> Think about this for a moment:

AE> In Iraq War #1, there were two quotes that while they echo in my daily 
AE> being seem to have been lost on 99.9% of the world's population. The 
AE> first was George Herbert Walker Bush stating that "This is about jobs, 
AE> American jobs."

AE> The second was George Schultz stating, "This is about preserving the 
AE> American lifestyle."

AE> Granted, Kuwait was invaded. Granted, Kuwait was slant drilling into 
AE> Iraqi oilfields. Granted, Iraq took no effort to resolve the issue 
AE> diplomatically.

AE> But take a look at the responses from American "leadership," - "jobs" 
AE> and "lifestyle" were the paramount justifications for war, not any moral 
AE> high ground, not any "points of light," just "jobs" and "the American 
AE> lifestyle."

AE> Now, tell me what has changed since then. Afghanistan being a house of 
AE> military bedlam for two plus decades, fueled by both the United States 
AE> and the USSR. Entire populations of similar mindsets in neighboring 
AE> nations fed up with "the American lifestyle" and how its manipulations 
AE> had, are and will continue to affect them if change is not brought 
AE> about. Individuals of limitted resources adamant that change must be 
AE> effected as soon as possible and with some justification at perhaps all 
AE> costs.

AE> What is fascinating and remarkable is that in the face of what many 
AE> perceive - in many respects correctly so - to be international 
AE> oppression, starvation, exploitation and strangulation, no one addresses 
AE> the role that imperialistic powers play in lighting the fuses that lead 
AE> to events such as London. They certainly didn't address the same issues 
AE> on September 12th, 2002. They haven't discussed their own role since then.

AE> Personally? Were I of Arab descent? I'd be mad as hell. And knowing how 
AE> easily it is for humans to be impatient and act or react rather than 
AE> wait for a slow, bureaucratic, greedy internatiionally intwined monster 
AE> to even begin to deliberate what it might destroy or compromise with its 
AE> next bite, it's not a far reach to understand where the underpinnings of 
AE> all this originate from.

AE> That's what is fascinating. The denial, avoidance and betrayal of the 
AE> core issues by national governments, all more interested in their 
AE> "lifestyle" than the betterment and peace of the rest of the globe's 
AE> peoples.

AE> So why talk about London and "evil" of type you imply when the evil at 
AE> the core remains unaddressed, much less resolved?

AE> I think that "evil at the core" is what is being addressed here. The 
AE> bombs, bloodletting, shortened lives and lost futures is what we'd all 
AE> like to prevent, even if it seems to be so simple as "de-evolving" and 
AE> choosing alternative and softer paths..

AE> Unfortunately, cowboys and assholes in "power" (not!) would rather 
AE> preserve American and western "lifestyles" as they have derisively 
AE> become to be known.

AE> I believe we're all in for a bit of a shock if such mindlessness is 
AE> permitted to prevail. And we haven't seen anything yet if we don't 
AE> change our direction and goals as a country.

AE> Todd Swearingen
-- 
Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns.

We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails.

The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, 
soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, 
without signposts.  
C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters"

Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, 
daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht 
gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden.

Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't
hear the music.  
George Carlin

The best portion of a good man's life -
His little, nameless, unremembered ac

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Hi Kim:

Kim Travis wrote:

Actually I think Canada was hijacked long before Regan, it was Trudeau 
that did it.  He took a strong independent country and put in all 
kinds of extravegant government services.


He also patriated a constitution that stripped all the rights we had 
under english common law (infinite, unless restricted by statute, 
precident or nature), and implemented a "bill of rights" that gave us 
back a few under a napoleonic law premise (none, unless specified).  For 
example, Canadians don't have the right to own property.


He gave the people $1.31 worth of services for every $1 we paid in 
taxes.  This went on for 17 years, since Canada has no term limits.  A 
whole generation came to adulthood and had their kids under this kind 
of greed, so when it came time to pay the piper, well you know how the 
rest of the story goes.  If you are going to ask me where I got the 
figures, frankly I no longer remember the source.  It was researched 
thoroughly back in my college days.


The government (read bureaucrats) has also looked to Sweden as an 
"ideal" form of socialistic governance, and have been systematically 
trying to emulate it through regulation and changes to law.  Compared to 
what Canada was when I was a young man, it's an overbearing, stifling, 
overregulated nightmare.


As to what Canada has been up to for the last 13 years, I am just a 
visitor now and then.  I live in Texas and don't follow the Canadian 
news much.  I have had lots to learn living in a new country and 
learning how to create a sustainable farm.  I was a city girl, till 
Texas.  I do hear my kids and my family B*  but I have no real 
knowledge of what is happening there anymore.


Neither do most of the people that live there, or at least they're too 
apathetic to look like they do.



At 03:59 PM 7/9/2005, chris b. wrote:

hi, kim.  perhaps my understanding of the political trajectory is 
more limited than i give myself credit for, but i've kind of had the 
notion that canada's political process was hijacked in the same way 
as the u.s.' during the reagan era (though perhaps somewhat more 
discretely?).  thanks for the confirmation.
 
and perhaps i'm naive in this, but it does seem to me that canadian 
society hasn't sunk quite as low as down here south of the border.



Actually, when I moved to the US, it was like a breath of fresh air.


all in all, you might call it "u.s.a. /light/"?  ;^,


No, Sweden light.  Canadians generally find being mistaken as Americans 
as extremely distasteful.  They're much too "sophisticated and 
intelligent" to be Americans.


Best regards... Tim

--
We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are.


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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Hi Keith:

Keith Addison wrote:

Lots of argument about what each person thinks their "unimpeachable" 
sources of information say.


Who are you quoting please? I can't find that word used in the 
discussions, let alone in that context.


I'm guilty of reading between the lines.  One group quotes Limbaugh and 
the other Chomsky.  When either source is question, the advocates get 
emotionally defensive.  The implication is that both sources are above 
reproach, even if statements are made to the contrary (ie, I've checked 
on him in case A, B, C, so I'm sure he's fine on D).

[snip]

You're talking the language of blame. As recent history has shown 
rather loudly, it's this kind of thinking that lashes out, desperate 
to find someone to punish, oblivious to all else, such as the reasons 
for the attack, the long chains of cause and consequence that have 
brought us all to "London" as you call it, which stretch back 
sometimes to not quite what you might expect. That's what a lynch mob 
does. So we must lash out again, maybe at altogether the wrong target 
again, and set in motion more chains of causes and consequences that 
bring us to more "London's", just as it's brought us to other places 
and dates. It's called sowing dragon's teeth. Osama bin Laden is 
exactly a dragon's tooth.


This is not what I'm advocating at all.  I'm stating that the proper 
response to a terrorist is no negotiation with or acquiescence to their 
demands.  By all means we should look to fixing the causes, if it is 
legitimate for us to do so.


What happens if our search leads us to understand that the value 
system(s) held by the "oppressed" people are the cause of their 
oppression and poverty.  Does this mean we have the right to work to 
change the value systems of the "oppressed"?


Rather than raise a lynch mob it makes much more sense to find out 
just what happened and trace it back to its causes - who, what, where, 
when, why and how (a good reporter answers all those questions in the 
first 25 words). But where there's lots of blame-talk flying around 
raising such questions can get a person accused of attempting to 
justify the crime, being "soft on terrorists".


Will you continue the questions past the events to human value systems, 
and their fruit?  Most don't seem to have the stomach for it.  They like 
to speak of "tolerance" and "love", and shy back from causal links to 
the actual values held by the majorities in those societies.



Anyway, how would you make certain that they're the right perps?


Some are caught, some are killed in attempts, some admit to their 
complicity, some are caught through intercessory investigation, etc.


The picture that's emerging in other posts is that none of the perps 
imprisoned were perps anyway, only a andlful have been charged, 
huindreds of others or more were innocent, and the REAL perps remain 
free. So that didn't work very well. Meanwhile there were 3,192 terror 
attacks worldwide last year with 28,433 people wounded, killed or 
kidnapped. So that isn't working very well either.


Better some success and many thousands of lives saved, than doing 
nothing because we don't have a better plan.  I'm all for a better plan.


Anyway, the Brits are coping with it, as one would expect, they're 
tough and level-headed folk. *They* know that there's a hell of a lot 
more to London than just "London".


And I'm very thankful for their stedfastness through it all.


What do you think of Spain's response to "Madrid"?


It's been a while, but my assessment at the time was that I would never 
have "rolled over" like they did.  However, there is a large Muslim 
population in Spain, so I would expect it was the politically expedient 
thing to do.  Not the right thing.


Best regards... Tim

--
We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are.



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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid





Hi Todd:

Appal Energy wrote:
Why
would you find it "fascinating?" People build bombs. People blow up and
never see their loved ones again. People get maimed, scarred and
disfigured for life and perhaps never look at anything in the same
fashion again, much less in a natural fashion.
  
  
That's not fascinating. That's horror.
  

The choice of the word "fascinating" was in reference to traffic on
this list, not about the horror of the events of London.
Perhaps
what is fascinating is the fact that the recipient nations remain
defiant in their industrial, colonial, imperial and military endeavors,
refusing to address the core of the problem, in turn giving no cause
for insurgents, terrorists or "freedom fighters" to back down either.
  

Sorry, I have to disagree with your view.  The evaluation of a value
system is in the examination of its fruit.  Many societies in this
world are oppressive places and downright evil places to live; ask any
woman or minority living there.
Think
about this for a moment:
  
In Iraq War #1, there were two quotes that while they echo in my daily
being seem to have been lost on 99.9% of the world's population. The
first was George Herbert Walker Bush stating that "This is about jobs,
American jobs."
  
  
The second was George Schultz stating, "This is about preserving the
American lifestyle."
  
  
Granted, Kuwait was invaded. Granted, Kuwait was slant drilling into
Iraqi oilfields. Granted, Iraq took no effort to resolve the issue
diplomatically.
  
  
But take a look at the responses from American "leadership," - "jobs"
and "lifestyle" were the paramount justifications for war, not any
moral high ground, not any "points of light," just "jobs" and "the
American lifestyle."
  

OK, I'll think about this and try to find the context of these
statements.  By the way, my experience on taking moral stands is that
people call you a religious nut and classify you as unfit to lead or
foolish or ignorant, etc.  "Who are you to foist your religious view on
them?" is commonly said or implied.
Now,
tell me what has changed since then. Afghanistan being a house of
military bedlam for two plus decades, fueled by both the United States
and the USSR. Entire populations of similar mindsets in neighboring
nations fed up with "the American lifestyle" and how its manipulations
had, are and will continue to affect them if change is not brought
about. Individuals of limitted resources adamant that change must be
effected as soon as possible and with some justification at perhaps all
costs.
  
  
What is fascinating and remarkable is that in the face of what many
perceive - in many respects correctly so - to be international
oppression, starvation, exploitation and strangulation, no one
addresses the role that imperialistic powers play in lighting the fuses
that lead to events such as London. They certainly didn't address the
same issues on September 12th, 2002. They haven't discussed their own
role since then.
  

Hmmm.  So if anywhere in our collective past there was evil done, we
are not free to address any other evil?  I suppose our "guilt" means we
should roll over and take our "penance"?  How does the possible death
of my children in an airplane crash into an office tower make
retribution for the actions of a past President (if indeed there is the
complicity you charge)?
Personally?
Were I of Arab descent? I'd be mad as hell. And knowing how easily it
is for humans to be impatient and act or react rather than wait for a
slow, bureaucratic, greedy internatiionally intwined monster to even
begin to deliberate what it might destroy or compromise with its next
bite, it's not a far reach to understand where the underpinnings of all
this originate from.
  

Ah, thanks Todd.  There's a good quote to answer Keith's question...

  
There is nothing that can justify these 
actions,
  

Who wants to justify them?

  

This sounds like a justification to me.  Is that a fair statement?
That's
what is fascinating. The denial, avoidance and betrayal of the core
issues by national governments, all more interested in their
"lifestyle" than the betterment and peace of the rest of the globe's
peoples.
  

I for one continue to work diligently at "the betterment and peace of
all people".  But I've also been called names for that too, because I
won't accept all human value systems as equivalent in worth.
So why
talk about London and "evil" of type you imply when the evil at the
core remains unaddressed, much less resolved?
  

I've tried to begin that conversation about justice earlier, but it
wasn't considered worthy of discussion. (I'd give you the archive link,
but the search functions of the archive seem somewhat limited; search
by email address?).
I think
that "evil at the core" is what is being addressed here. The bombs,
bloodletting, shortened lives and lost futures is what we'd all like to
prevent, even if it seems to be so simple as "de-evolving" and choosing
alternative and softer pat

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

well said keith, I can't believe he gets around the whole world with this.

Ryan

- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

Hi Hakan and all

Here is the link to that "respected" talk show host.  This is the entire 
transcript, all of what he said.

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_070705/content/rush_is_r 
ight.guest.html

I do not normally read or listen to him, because for me as a foreigner he 
is neither famous or a normal diet, but did it now and have the following 
questions.

Do many Americans listen to this?
Are you not afraid when you hear his views?

I sure am.

You know that I sometimes think that Americans are a bit naive, but I will 
not go so far as that they belive this "whacko", or do they?

FWIW, Rush Limbaugh is featured every day on American forces radio 
stations at US military bases, at least in Japan, I suppose elsewhere too. 
So is Paul Harvey, who Doug just mentioned. I like Todd's term 
"limbaughtomized". Your brain has to be not all present and correct to 
listen to that stuff and go on thinking all is well and good. IMNSHO.

Best

Keith

I did a calculation once, based on Iraqi family sizes with probable number 
of relatives and close friends, and draw the conclusion. That it was 
almost impossible, or at least very rare, that any Iraqi did not knew a 
person well, that had been killed by the Americans.

With this background, how likely is it that US would be welcomed and loved 
as liberators?
Is not the thought or expectation of that Iraqis would love the Americans 
a bit naive?
Based on civil wars and other occupations, wouldn't it take 80 to 100 
years before Iraq can get over this with the Americans?
Would it not be the responsibility of any Iraqi or American, that love his 
family, his friends and his country, to fight an occupier?
If you answer no to the above question, does it not make your country, 
including US, very easy to occupy and subdue?

Hakan

This will give you an idea of why we are so "accepting of our governments 
lies, Hakan.

Don't get me wrong, he's very fun to listen to, but eventually I have to 
turn it off and form my own opinion.
If you surf the site, you will notice a veeery conservative bias. Again, 
no problem with this, I just don't agree.  Without left we can have no 
right. The problem is when they get out of balance, yin and yang.

Happy Day to all
Ryan

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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid




 
- Original Message - 
From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 6:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, 
stupid

> > Ryan,> > At 05:23 PM 
7/9/2005, you wrote:> > >>What is the 
probability that>>they would love and be grateful to the Americans? 
Why are the Americans>>surprised, when the Iraqis do not love them? Is 
it not understandable that>>some of the Iraqis want to kill Americans, 
how would you react in their>>situation?> > I posted 
that, but you only repeated a part of it. The introduction to this > 
questions was and here is what I wrote,> > "I always think about 
some obvious realities, when Americans come up> with this dreams about 
the future. Iraq is a country with a population that> to 80% consist of 
old people, widows and Fatherless children under 15 years> of age. The 
Americans have directly or indirectly been involved in making> the women 
widows and the children fatherless. What is the probability that> they 
would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the Americans> 
surprised, when the Iraqis do not love them? Is it not understandable 
that> some of the Iraqis want to kill Americans, how would you react in 
their> situation?"
I apologize for only repeating part 
of your post.  My fault.
 
> >>I have brought this up to 
several poeple, they all just look confused, >>like they can't handle 
the possibility that we are the bad guys.  I use >>this 
example:>>If France decided that George W. Bush was a threat to them 
and said, well >>lets make a preemptive strike, then they came here 
and said to us, "we are >>liberating you from this oppressive 
government.">>You can bet on the majority of the American population 
picking up some >>guns and fighting the intruders.  The news 
would say it was our only hope >>for survival.  And the NRA 
(National Rifle Association) would have a field day.>>Most people 
still cannot grasp the concept.>>>>Here is the link to that 
"respected" talk show host.  This is the entire >>transcript, all 
of what he 
said.>>>>http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_070705/content/rush_is_right.guest.html 
>>> > I do not normally read or listen to him, because 
for me as a foreigner he > is neither famous or a normal diet, but did it 
now and have the following > questions.> > Do many 
Americans listen to this?
 
you would be 
surprised.
 
Washington post states that it 
is 20 million people per week.  
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48952-2005Mar19.html
 
An MSNBC article on his oxicontin 
abuse scandal states:
Limbaugh could count on 20 million Dittoheads and 
talk-radio fans to tune in five days a week
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3158206/
 
> Are you not afraid when you hear his views?
 
Of course I am, those 20 million people regurgitate his 
propoganda as truth and proudly call themselves "dittoheads." I haven't 
listened to him in quite some time.  I used to listen to him and argue with 
a friend, mentioned in a moment.  But eventually I got tired of hearing 
it.  There are no talk radio shows that even resemble a balance.  It 
is all a huge propoganda machine.  And they said video killed the radio 
star.  Ha.  It just slowed them down for a 
while. 
> You know that I sometimes think that Americans are a bit naive, 
but I will > not go so far as that they belive this "whacko", or do 
they?
 
I have a friend who will only listen to Rush or Sean 
Hannity, and will only let his children watch Fox news because, "they say 
republicans are good, democrats are bad."> > I did a 
calculation once, based on Iraqi family sizes with probable number > of 
relatives and close friends, and draw the conclusion. That it was almost 
> impossible, or at least very rare, that any Iraqi did not knew a person 
> well, that had been killed by the Americans.> > With this 
background, how likely is it that US would be welcomed and loved > as 
liberators?
 
Chances are slim to none, but as you mentioned before, 
we are naive, wearing a blindfold.
 
> Is not the thought or expectation of that Iraqis would love the 
Americans a > bit naive?
 
Very
> Based on civil wars and other occupations, wouldn't it take 80 to 
100 years > before Iraq can get over this with the Americans?
 
Wish I knew.  I know we could help expedite that 
process by treating them like people and stopping this insanity, but it would 
not heal it.  You can't Kill 100,000 people then say, whoops, thought you 
were helping terrorists.  Our bad.
> Would it not be the responsibility of any Iraqi or American, that 
love his > family, his friends and his

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Hi Robert:

robert luis rabello wrote:

There has been plenty of discussion concerning the "nature of the 
value systems" undergirding the evil in our world.  Have you been 
paying attention?  What happened in London is yet another symptom of a 
far deeper problem.


Sure.  I was speaking specifically about the event of 7 7.

There is nothing that can justify these  actions, nor nothing that 
would cause me to ever sit at a table to negiotiate anything other 
than an unconditional surrender and the incarceration/ execution of 
the perps.


I think nearly everyone who contributes to this forum would agree that 
the London bombings were heinous, criminal acts.


Thank you. They were also military acts. I've got a sense from past 
postings that many folks say they can understand why these people commit 
these acts (without advocating them or legitimizing them).  I can't 
really understand why killing people that are truly unconnected to 
primary causes is "understandable".  Perhaps I've misunderstood the gist 
of the posts.


  Yet when you speak of unconditional surrender, you invoke military 
language.  In the classic sense, are you able to define the "enemy"?  


What do you mean by "classic sense".  Do you mean, a nationality or 
uniform?  If so, then no.  However, the "enemy" is composed of 
cooperative individuals that embrace a common value system.


Can you point to a nation state as the perpetrator of such terrorism, 
or must we engage in endless, mindless slaughter of ill defined 
"enemies" until those "enemies" have no recourse other than to lash 
back at us?


If I understand you, we've misidentified the enemy and created new enemies?

  Has the policy of "going after" terrorism with the blunt cudgel of 
military power proven effective in eliminating the terrorist threat?


Somewhat.  There have been attacks prevented, such as the planned 
"demolition" of the Brooklyn Bridge.


A very wise man once said: "Violence begets violence."  The way of 
peace is a long and difficult path, but it begins with listening.


There are things worth dying for (defensive).  There are no things worth 
murdering for (aggression).  There are things worth killing to preserve 
(defensive).  [This is an important distinction.]  We must be very 
careful to ensure that we are taking truly defensive actions.


All the best... Tim

--
We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are.



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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

I have always been impressed with Clinton's ability to speak, and cause 
people to listen.  It is because of his presidency that I slowly began to 
take note of politics.  While I still consider myself uninformed, I felt 
much more confident about the candidates in the previous election than most 
of my friends and family.  Many of my family took a kind of, Eh (shoulder 
shrug) stance.  Welcome to the United States of Apathy.


Ryan
- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


back in the '80s i started comparing the dual-party system here to 
choosing
between coke and pepsi.  with some satisfaction, i sometimes hear that 
same

sentiment from others.

i must admit, though, that while at first i was quite in favor of dean, my
disappointment was short-lived once he got sidelined.  since kerry seemed 
the
nominee-apparent,  i tried to find out what i could about him beyond what 
the

media was providing.  what i found surprised me.  if there was a single
democratic nominee in the past quarter century with solid credentials, it 
had to be
kerry.  his post-vietnam efforts (on behalf of both the veterans and the 
truth
about what happened there), and his instrumental role in getting the 
c.i.a. to

admit to its role in the L.A. crack epidemic, are just two examples.

how credentials like his could get morphed into the pathetic candidate we 
saw
in 2000 is beyond me.  compare that platform to his record in the senate, 
and
it's quite startling.  but that seems to be the strategic choice the 
democrat
ic party has made in the post-reagan era:  centrism as philosophy/policy 
i.e.
ideology, in contrast to the republican use of centrist rhetoric as a 
campaign

tactic.

all the sadder when you consider the wasted potential of other former
democratic leaders, esp. carter, mondale and clinton (although the former 
and the
latter aren't without their black marks).  i look at interviews they've 
done and

am truly impressed by their intellect and insight.

-chris b.








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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

There is a reason he kisses the saudi representative, and holds his hand 
looking at flowers and kills Iraqis like ants...

Ryan
- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

intentional neglect, if you ask me.

since the '70s the right wing (primarily) of the political establishment 
has
been arguing that america's next great challenge was going to be 
terrorism.

they dialed up this rehetoric considerably when reagan got ito office, and
redoubled it after the collapse of the fsu.  of course, they knew what 
they were
talking about, because they were very well aware of what america's policy 
in

the middle east was breeding.

the bush family has very close ties to the saudi royal family and the bin
laden family going back more than 30 years.  connect the dots. . . .

-chris b.

In a message dated 7/8/05 2:22:50 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< You'll never understand it if you see it in the polarised
American Clinton vs Bush keyhole view. Both were responsible, but
especially Bush, as an abundance of evidence, testimony and
subsequent revelation of sheer neglect has shown, much of it in the
list archive for your convenience. >>

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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid- limbaugh

2005-07-10 Thread Hakan Falk



Doug,

Amazing.

Hitler would have been a guaranteed success as American talk show host.

Hakan



At 04:51 AM 7/10/2005, you wrote:

Hakan,

 Rush Limbaugh represents the views of a substantial number of Americans,
enough that we have the president and legislator we have today.  Another
broadcast celebrity here in America is Paul Harvey and some recent remarks
by him advocating slavery, genocide and the use of nuclear and biological
weapons on his program have pretty much flown under the radar.  Visit
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ericzorn/weblog/archives/2005/06/paul_harvey_ah.html
to read his remarks.  Harvey makes his living as a salesman and good
salesmen do not say things that could adversely impact sales.  Harvey has
been selling for over 30 years that I'm aware of, so he is a good salesmen.
He was correct in believing that enough Americans wouldn't be outraged to
substantially affect sales.  He may have back-peddled, but I don't listen to
his programs on a regular basis, haven't done so for a long time.  Luck of
the draw that I heard that program that I did.  There are good people in
America, I have to hope they will prevail and the rest of the world allows
them enough time to do so.
Doug
 - Original Message -
From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


:
: Ryan,
:
: At 05:23 PM 7/9/2005, you wrote:
: 
:
: >What is the probability that
: >they would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the Americans
: >surprised, when the Iraqis do not love them? Is it not understandable
that
: >some of the Iraqis want to kill Americans, how would you react in their
: >situation?
:
: I posted that, but you only repeated a part of it. The introduction to
this
: questions was and here is what I wrote,
:
: "I always think about some obvious realities, when Americans come up
: with this dreams about the future. Iraq is a country with a population
that
: to 80% consist of old people, widows and Fatherless children under 15
years
: of age. The Americans have directly or indirectly been involved in making
: the women widows and the children fatherless. What is the probability that
: they would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the Americans
: surprised, when the Iraqis do not love them? Is it not understandable that
: some of the Iraqis want to kill Americans, how would you react in their
: situation?"
:
:
:
: >I have brought this up to several poeple, they all just look confused,
: >like they can't handle the possibility that we are the bad guys.  I use
: >this example:
: >If France decided that George W. Bush was a threat to them and said, well
: >lets make a preemptive strike, then they came here and said to us, "we
are
: >liberating you from this oppressive government."
: >You can bet on the majority of the American population picking up some
: >guns and fighting the intruders.  The news would say it was our only hope
: >for survival.  And the NRA (National Rifle Association) would have a
field day.
: >Most people still cannot grasp the concept.
: >
: >Here is the link to that "respected" talk show host.  This is the entire
: >transcript, all of what he said.
: >
:
>http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_070705/content/rush_is_right.gu
est.html
: >
:
: I do not normally read or listen to him, because for me as a foreigner he
: is neither famous or a normal diet, but did it now and have the following
: questions.
:
: Do many Americans listen to this?
: Are you not afraid when you hear his views?
: You know that I sometimes think that Americans are a bit naive, but I will
: not go so far as that they belive this "whacko", or do they?
:
: I did a calculation once, based on Iraqi family sizes with probable number
: of relatives and close friends, and draw the conclusion. That it was
almost
: impossible, or at least very rare, that any Iraqi did not knew a person
: well, that had been killed by the Americans.
:
: With this background, how likely is it that US would be welcomed and loved

: as liberators?
: Is not the thought or expectation of that Iraqis would love the Americans
a
: bit naive?
: Based on civil wars and other occupations, wouldn't it take 80 to 100
years
: before Iraq can get over this with the Americans?
: Would it not be the responsibility of any Iraqi or American, that love his
: family, his friends and his country, to fight an occupier?
: If you answer no to the above question, does it not make your country,
: including US, very easy to occupy and subdue?
:
: Hakan
:
:
:
: >This will give you an idea of why we are so "accepting of our governments
: >lies, Hakan.
: >
: >Don't get me wrong, he's very fun to listen to, but eventually I have to
: >turn it off and form my own opini

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid- limbaugh

2005-07-09 Thread Keith Addison


Hi Doug


Hakan,

Rush Limbaugh represents the views of a substantial number of Americans,
enough that we have the president and legislator we have today.  Another
broadcast celebrity here in America is Paul Harvey and some recent remarks
by him advocating slavery, genocide and the use of nuclear and biological
weapons on his program have pretty much flown under the radar.


Pretty much, but there's this anyway:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2569
Action Alert
Paul Harvey's Tribute to Slavery, Nukes, Genocide
Hateful rant shows Disney's double standard on speech
July 1, 2005
FAIR-L
Fairness & Accuracy In Reporting
Media analysis, critiques and activism


Visit
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ericzorn/weblog/archive 
s/2005/06/paul_harvey_ah.html

to read his remarks.  Harvey makes his living as a salesman and good
salesmen do not say things that could adversely impact sales.  Harvey has
been selling for over 30 years that I'm aware of, so he is a good salesmen.
He was correct in believing that enough Americans wouldn't be outraged to
substantially affect sales.  He may have back-peddled, but I don't listen to
his programs on a regular basis, haven't done so for a long time.  Luck of
the draw that I heard that program that I did.  There are good people in
America,


Most?


I have to hope they will prevail and the rest of the world allows
them enough time to do so.


I think maybe all of us are hoping that very fervently.

All best

Keith



Doug
- Original Message -
From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


:
: Ryan,
:
: At 05:23 PM 7/9/2005, you wrote:
: 
:
: >What is the probability that
: >they would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the Americans





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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-09 Thread Keith Addison


Hi Hakan and all



Here is the link to that "respected" talk show host.  This is the 
entire transcript, all of what he said.


http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_070705/content/rush_is_r 
ight.guest.html


I do not normally read or listen to him, because for me as a 
foreigner he is neither famous or a normal diet, but did it now and 
have the following questions.


Do many Americans listen to this?
Are you not afraid when you hear his views?


I sure am.

You know that I sometimes think that Americans are a bit naive, but 
I will not go so far as that they belive this "whacko", or do they?


FWIW, Rush Limbaugh is featured every day on American forces radio 
stations at US military bases, at least in Japan, I suppose elsewhere 
too. So is Paul Harvey, who Doug just mentioned. I like Todd's term 
"limbaughtomized". Your brain has to be not all present and correct 
to listen to that stuff and go on thinking all is well and good. 
IMNSHO.


Best

Keith


I did a calculation once, based on Iraqi family sizes with probable 
number of relatives and close friends, and draw the conclusion. That 
it was almost impossible, or at least very rare, that any Iraqi did 
not knew a person well, that had been killed by the Americans.


With this background, how likely is it that US would be welcomed and 
loved as liberators?
Is not the thought or expectation of that Iraqis would love the 
Americans a bit naive?
Based on civil wars and other occupations, wouldn't it take 80 to 
100 years before Iraq can get over this with the Americans?
Would it not be the responsibility of any Iraqi or American, that 
love his family, his friends and his country, to fight an occupier?
If you answer no to the above question, does it not make your 
country, including US, very easy to occupy and subdue?


Hakan



This will give you an idea of why we are so "accepting of our 
governments lies, Hakan.


Don't get me wrong, he's very fun to listen to, but eventually I 
have to turn it off and form my own opinion.
If you surf the site, you will notice a veeery conservative bias. 
Again, no problem with this, I just don't agree.  Without left we 
can have no right. The problem is when they get out of balance, yin 
and yang.


Happy Day to all
Ryan



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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid- limbaugh

2005-07-09 Thread Doug Younker

Hakan,

 Rush Limbaugh represents the views of a substantial number of Americans,
enough that we have the president and legislator we have today.  Another
broadcast celebrity here in America is Paul Harvey and some recent remarks
by him advocating slavery, genocide and the use of nuclear and biological
weapons on his program have pretty much flown under the radar.  Visit
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ericzorn/weblog/archives/2005/06/paul_harvey_ah.html
to read his remarks.  Harvey makes his living as a salesman and good
salesmen do not say things that could adversely impact sales.  Harvey has
been selling for over 30 years that I'm aware of, so he is a good salesmen.
He was correct in believing that enough Americans wouldn't be outraged to
substantially affect sales.  He may have back-peddled, but I don't listen to
his programs on a regular basis, haven't done so for a long time.  Luck of
the draw that I heard that program that I did.  There are good people in
America, I have to hope they will prevail and the rest of the world allows
them enough time to do so.
Doug
 - Original Message - 
From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


:
: Ryan,
:
: At 05:23 PM 7/9/2005, you wrote:
: 
:
: >What is the probability that
: >they would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the Americans
: >surprised, when the Iraqis do not love them? Is it not understandable
that
: >some of the Iraqis want to kill Americans, how would you react in their
: >situation?
:
: I posted that, but you only repeated a part of it. The introduction to
this
: questions was and here is what I wrote,
:
: "I always think about some obvious realities, when Americans come up
: with this dreams about the future. Iraq is a country with a population
that
: to 80% consist of old people, widows and Fatherless children under 15
years
: of age. The Americans have directly or indirectly been involved in making
: the women widows and the children fatherless. What is the probability that
: they would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the Americans
: surprised, when the Iraqis do not love them? Is it not understandable that
: some of the Iraqis want to kill Americans, how would you react in their
: situation?"
:
:
:
: >I have brought this up to several poeple, they all just look confused,
: >like they can't handle the possibility that we are the bad guys.  I use
: >this example:
: >If France decided that George W. Bush was a threat to them and said, well
: >lets make a preemptive strike, then they came here and said to us, "we
are
: >liberating you from this oppressive government."
: >You can bet on the majority of the American population picking up some
: >guns and fighting the intruders.  The news would say it was our only hope
: >for survival.  And the NRA (National Rifle Association) would have a
field day.
: >Most people still cannot grasp the concept.
: >
: >Here is the link to that "respected" talk show host.  This is the entire
: >transcript, all of what he said.
: >
:
>http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_070705/content/rush_is_right.gu
est.html
: >
:
: I do not normally read or listen to him, because for me as a foreigner he
: is neither famous or a normal diet, but did it now and have the following
: questions.
:
: Do many Americans listen to this?
: Are you not afraid when you hear his views?
: You know that I sometimes think that Americans are a bit naive, but I will
: not go so far as that they belive this "whacko", or do they?
:
: I did a calculation once, based on Iraqi family sizes with probable number
: of relatives and close friends, and draw the conclusion. That it was
almost
: impossible, or at least very rare, that any Iraqi did not knew a person
: well, that had been killed by the Americans.
:
: With this background, how likely is it that US would be welcomed and loved

: as liberators?
: Is not the thought or expectation of that Iraqis would love the Americans
a
: bit naive?
: Based on civil wars and other occupations, wouldn't it take 80 to 100
years
: before Iraq can get over this with the Americans?
: Would it not be the responsibility of any Iraqi or American, that love his
: family, his friends and his country, to fight an occupier?
: If you answer no to the above question, does it not make your country,
: including US, very easy to occupy and subdue?
:
: Hakan
:
:
:
: >This will give you an idea of why we are so "accepting of our governments
: >lies, Hakan.
: >
: >Don't get me wrong, he's very fun to listen to, but eventually I have to
: >turn it off and form my own opinion.
: >If you surf the site, you will notice a veeery conservative bias.  Again,
: >no problem with this, I just don't agree.

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-09 Thread Appal Energy


Tim Brodie,

> I find it fascinating that virtually nothing has been said in this forum
> about London.  Lots of argument about what each person thinks
> their "unimpeachable" sources of information say.  Nothing about
> the current event that demonstrates the face of this evil, and the
> nature of the value systems that executed these actions.

Why would you find it "fascinating?" People build bombs. People blow up 
and never see their loved ones again. People get maimed, scarred and 
disfigured for life and perhaps never look at anything in the same 
fashion again, much less in a natural fashion.


That's not fascinating. That's horror.

Perhaps what is fascinating is the fact that the recipient nations 
remain defiant in their industrial, colonial, imperial and military 
endeavors, refusing to address the core of the problem, in turn giving 
no cause for insurgents, terrorists or "freedom fighters" to back down 
either.


Think about this for a moment:

In Iraq War #1, there were two quotes that while they echo in my daily 
being seem to have been lost on 99.9% of the world's population. The 
first was George Herbert Walker Bush stating that "This is about jobs, 
American jobs."


The second was George Schultz stating, "This is about preserving the 
American lifestyle."


Granted, Kuwait was invaded. Granted, Kuwait was slant drilling into 
Iraqi oilfields. Granted, Iraq took no effort to resolve the issue 
diplomatically.


But take a look at the responses from American "leadership," - "jobs" 
and "lifestyle" were the paramount justifications for war, not any moral 
high ground, not any "points of light," just "jobs" and "the American 
lifestyle."


Now, tell me what has changed since then. Afghanistan being a house of 
military bedlam for two plus decades, fueled by both the United States 
and the USSR. Entire populations of similar mindsets in neighboring 
nations fed up with "the American lifestyle" and how its manipulations 
had, are and will continue to affect them if change is not brought 
about. Individuals of limitted resources adamant that change must be 
effected as soon as possible and with some justification at perhaps all 
costs.


What is fascinating and remarkable is that in the face of what many 
perceive - in many respects correctly so - to be international 
oppression, starvation, exploitation and strangulation, no one addresses 
the role that imperialistic powers play in lighting the fuses that lead 
to events such as London. They certainly didn't address the same issues 
on September 12th, 2002. They haven't discussed their own role since then.


Personally? Were I of Arab descent? I'd be mad as hell. And knowing how 
easily it is for humans to be impatient and act or react rather than 
wait for a slow, bureaucratic, greedy internatiionally intwined monster 
to even begin to deliberate what it might destroy or compromise with its 
next bite, it's not a far reach to understand where the underpinnings of 
all this originate from.


That's what is fascinating. The denial, avoidance and betrayal of the 
core issues by national governments, all more interested in their 
"lifestyle" than the betterment and peace of the rest of the globe's 
peoples.


So why talk about London and "evil" of type you imply when the evil at 
the core remains unaddressed, much less resolved?


I think that "evil at the core" is what is being addressed here. The 
bombs, bloodletting, shortened lives and lost futures is what we'd all 
like to prevent, even if it seems to be so simple as "de-evolving" and 
choosing alternative and softer paths..


Unfortunately, cowboys and assholes in "power" (not!) would rather 
preserve American and western "lifestyles" as they have derisively 
become to be known.


I believe we're all in for a bit of a shock if such mindlessness is 
permitted to prevail. And we haven't seen anything yet if we don't 
change our direction and goals as a country.


Todd Swearingen




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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-09 Thread Hakan Falk



Ryan,

At 05:23 PM 7/9/2005, you wrote:



What is the probability that
they would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the Americans
surprised, when the Iraqis do not love them? Is it not understandable that
some of the Iraqis want to kill Americans, how would you react in their
situation?


I posted that, but you only repeated a part of it. The introduction to this 
questions was and here is what I wrote,


"I always think about some obvious realities, when Americans come up
with this dreams about the future. Iraq is a country with a population that
to 80% consist of old people, widows and Fatherless children under 15 years
of age. The Americans have directly or indirectly been involved in making
the women widows and the children fatherless. What is the probability that
they would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the Americans
surprised, when the Iraqis do not love them? Is it not understandable that
some of the Iraqis want to kill Americans, how would you react in their
situation?"



I have brought this up to several poeple, they all just look confused, 
like they can't handle the possibility that we are the bad guys.  I use 
this example:
If France decided that George W. Bush was a threat to them and said, well 
lets make a preemptive strike, then they came here and said to us, "we are 
liberating you from this oppressive government."
You can bet on the majority of the American population picking up some 
guns and fighting the intruders.  The news would say it was our only hope 
for survival.  And the NRA (National Rifle Association) would have a field day.

Most people still cannot grasp the concept.

Here is the link to that "respected" talk show host.  This is the entire 
transcript, all of what he said.


http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_070705/content/rush_is_right.guest.html 



I do not normally read or listen to him, because for me as a foreigner he 
is neither famous or a normal diet, but did it now and have the following 
questions.


Do many Americans listen to this?
Are you not afraid when you hear his views?
You know that I sometimes think that Americans are a bit naive, but I will 
not go so far as that they belive this "whacko", or do they?


I did a calculation once, based on Iraqi family sizes with probable number 
of relatives and close friends, and draw the conclusion. That it was almost 
impossible, or at least very rare, that any Iraqi did not knew a person 
well, that had been killed by the Americans.


With this background, how likely is it that US would be welcomed and loved 
as liberators?
Is not the thought or expectation of that Iraqis would love the Americans a 
bit naive?
Based on civil wars and other occupations, wouldn't it take 80 to 100 years 
before Iraq can get over this with the Americans?
Would it not be the responsibility of any Iraqi or American, that love his 
family, his friends and his country, to fight an occupier?
If you answer no to the above question, does it not make your country, 
including US, very easy to occupy and subdue?


Hakan



This will give you an idea of why we are so "accepting of our governments 
lies, Hakan.


Don't get me wrong, he's very fun to listen to, but eventually I have to 
turn it off and form my own opinion.
If you surf the site, you will notice a veeery conservative bias.  Again, 
no problem with this, I just don't agree.  Without left we can have no 
right. The problem is when they get out of balance, yin and yang.


Happy Day to all
Ryan

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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-09 Thread Garth & Kim Travis

Greetings,
Actually I think Canada was hijacked long before Regan, it was Trudeau
that did it.  He took a strong independent country and put in all
kinds of extravegant government services.  He gave the people $1.31
worth of services for every $1 we paid in taxes.  This went on for
17 years, since Canada has no term limits.  A whole generation came
to adulthood and had their kids under this kind of greed, so when it came
time to pay the piper, well you know how the rest of the story
goes.  If you are going to ask me where I got the figures, frankly I
no longer remember the source.  It was researched thoroughly back in
my college days.
As to what Canada has been up to for the last 13 years, I am just a
visitor now and then.  I live in Texas and don't follow the Canadian
news much.  I have had lots to learn living in a new country and
learning how to create a sustainable farm.  I was a city girl, till
Texas.  I do hear my kids and my family B*  but I have no
real knowledge of what is happening there anymore.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 03:59 PM 7/9/2005, you wrote:
hi, kim.  perhaps my
understanding of the political trajectory is more limited than i give
myself credit for, but i've kind of had the notion that canada's
political process was hijacked in the same way as the u.s.' during the
reagan era (though perhaps somewhat more discretely?).  thanks for
the confirmation.

and perhaps i'm naive in this, but it does seem to me that canadian
society hasn't sunk quite as low as down here south of the border.

all in all, you might call it "u.s.a. light"? 
;^,

-chris b.

-Original Message-
From: Garth & Kim Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 11:34:14 -0500
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
Greetings, 
I don't disagree, but Canada does so much of the US's dirty work, that
anyone who is knowledgeable is going to tar Canada with the same brush.
Good examples of what I am saying is the software developed by Canada for
electronic tracking of persons and words and the latest nonsense of not
allowing delegates to the symposium on GE foods in Montreal. Canada is as
much under the same control of the same multinationals as the US is. I am
real tired of Canadians self righteous muck about the US, when they are
in bed with Monsanto et al, just the same. 
Bright Blessings, 
Kim 
A World citizen with a Canadian passport. 

At 11:22 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote: 
>Garth & Kim Travis wrote: 
> 
>>Greetings, 
>>Canada has had terrorist attacks, from its own people. Remember
the >>FLQ? They kidnapped the Prime Ministers best friend in an
attempt to >>break Canada into 2 countries. The emergency measures
act is fully equal >>to the patriot act. And yes, it has been
implemented in my >>lifetime. Each country has its own problems,
trying to say anyone is >>perfect is nonsense. 
> 
> That wasn't my point, Kim. You are correct that every nation has
> its problems, but the FLQ was a domestic organization, just like the
SLA > (remember them?) was a domestic organization. What I'm trying to
> communicate, is that American foreign policy directly impacts the
> attitudes people maintain toward the United States. 
> 
> Do you disagree? 
> 
> 
>robert luis rabello 
>"The Edge of Justice" 
>Adventure for Your Mind 
>
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782>

> 
>Ranger Supercharger Project Page 
>
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ 
> 
> 
> 
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>&nb
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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


 yep, and just short months ago, you almost couldn't talk about abu ghreib without speaking gonzales' name breath thanks to his role in redefining the armed forces' interpretation of the word 'torture'.  suddenly, given justice o'connor's resgination, the right and the complicit media are wasting no time in their effort to reframe the debate by pointing out how he's unacceptable to the social conservatives.  gee, he's not anti-choice?  well maybe he'd be an ok justice after all. . . .*snort*
 
-chris b.
 -Original Message-From: Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:06:11 -0700 (PDT)Subject: RE: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid





 
"May 17 - The White House's top lawyer warned more than two years ago that U.S. officials could be prosecuted for "war crimes" as a result of new and unorthodox measures used by the Bush administration in the war on terrorism, according to an internal White House memo and interviews with participants in the debate over the issue."
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4999734/site/newsweek/
 
Mike
 
Chris Lloyd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Benladin and his lot that wreaked havoc upon NYC, not Iraq, "stupid."<I'm not even sure that he knew about the attack, I saw the firstvideo he put out after 9/11 with the corrected voice over. He neverclaimed responsibility for himself or his terror groups. He did say hethought that America got what it disserved and the people who did itwere heroes. I would have thought that after pulling off an attack likethat he would have bragged about it like he did with his attacks inAfghanistan. Has anybody actually been convicted for being directly involved inthe 9/11 attack, the only people arrested/convicted in the UK have beendone for "Being members of a terrorist organisation" or even beingfriends of someone thought to be a member of a terrorist organisation.After arresting nearly 400 people in the UK less than 10 have beenconvicted or sent to the US. Chris. Wessex Ferret Club (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk)-- No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.11/44 - Release Date:08/07/2005___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


hi, kim.  perhaps my understanding of the political trajectory is more limited than i give myself credit for, but i've kind of had the notion that canada's political process was hijacked in the same way as the u.s.' during the reagan era (though perhaps somewhat more discretely?).  thanks for the confirmation.
 
and perhaps i'm naive in this, but it does seem to me that canadian society hasn't sunk quite as low as down here south of the border.
 
all in all, you might call it "u.s.a. light"?  ;^,
 
-chris b. -Original Message-From: Garth & Kim Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 11:34:14 -0500Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Greetings, I don't disagree, but Canada does so much of the US's dirty work, that anyone who is knowledgeable is going to tar Canada with the same brush. Good examples of what I am saying is the software developed by Canada for electronic tracking of persons and words and the latest nonsense of not allowing delegates to the symposium on GE foods in Montreal. Canada is as much under the same control of the same multinationals as the US is. I am real tired of Canadians self righteous muck about the US, when they are in bed with Monsanto et al, just the same. Bright Blessings, Kim A World citizen with a Canadian passport.  At 11:22 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote: >Garth & Kim Travis wrote: > >>Greetings, >>Canada has had terrorist attacks, from its own people. Remember the >>FLQ? They kidnapped the Prime Ministers best friend in an attempt to >>break Canada into 2 countries. The emergency measures act is fully equal >>to the patriot act. And yes, it has been implemented in my >>lifetime. Each country has its own problems, trying to say anyone is >>perfect is nonsense. > > That wasn't my point, Kim. You are correct that every nation has > its problems, but the FLQ was a domestic organization, just like the SLA > (remember them?) was a domestic organization. What I'm trying to > communicate, is that American foreign policy directly impacts the > attitudes people maintain toward the United States. > > Do you disagree? > > >robert luis rabello >"The Edge of Justice" >Adventure for Your Mind >http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782> > >Ranger Supercharger Project Page >http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ > > > >___ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > >   ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org  Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html  Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/  
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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-09 Thread robert luis rabello


Tim Brodie wrote:


I find it fascinating that virtually nothing has been said in this forum 
about London.  Lots of argument about what each person thinks their 
"unimpeachable" sources of information say.  Nothing about the current 
event that demonstrates the face of this evil, and the nature of the 
value systems that executed these actions. 


	There has been plenty of discussion concerning the "nature of the 
value systems" undergirding the evil in our world.  Have you been 
paying attention?  What happened in London is yet another symptom of a 
far deeper problem.


There is nothing that can justify these  actions, nor nothing that would 
cause me to ever sit at a table to negiotiate anything other than an 
unconditional surrender and the incarceration/ execution of the perps.


	I think nearly everyone who contributes to this forum would agree 
that the London bombings were heinous, criminal acts.  Yet when you 
speak of unconditional surrender, you invoke military language.  In 
the classic sense, are you able to define the "enemy"?  Can you point 
to a nation state as the perpetrator of such terrorism, or must we 
engage in endless, mindless slaughter of ill defined "enemies" until 
those "enemies" have no recourse other than to lash back at us?  Has 
the policy of "going after" terrorism with the blunt cudgel of 
military power proven effective in eliminating the terrorist threat?


	A very wise man once said: "Violence begets violence."  The way of 
peace is a long and difficult path, but it begins with listening.




Best regards... Tim


And to you as well, Tim.




robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782>

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

the u.s.a. allows dual-citizenship with a very few specific countries.

-chris b.

In a message dated 7/8/05 5:12:36 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< Frantz wrote: "USA don't allow dual citizenship"

 

I am a dual citizen of the USA and Switzerland.

 

As far as being citizen of the world, many of us in this forum have already 
expressed our agreement on that vision. A thread on that can be found in the 
archives.

 

Mike >>

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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-09 Thread Keith Addison


Hello Tim


Garth & Kim Travis wrote:


Greetings Robert,
Wouldn't it be nice if we could just trade passports, then I could 
vote against the nonsense that is going on in the states. 
Actually, when I was in France back in the 1980s, everyone assumed 
I was American because my French is so poor and All Canadians spoke 
french.  At least that is what the Canadian propaganda stated. 
That and southern Albertans tend to have a bit of a drawl, after 
all, it is Texas North, isn't it?  Most people, even here is Texas 
are surprised to find out I am Canadian.  I always thought that 
identifying with a country was kind of silly.


It's silly with respect to how fluid a country actually can be (in 
terms of what it is).  The Canada I grew up in and loved no longer 
exists, and hasn't for the last 15 years.  What has been foisted on 
us is awful, and I find myself without a country.


Welcome!

However, the values that made Canada great are largely still present 
in the USA, so here I am.  I don't find the loss of Canada silly, 
and I don't find my growing identification with the USA silly.


Oops.

One only needs to watch what results when something as valuable as 
Canada is destroyed through neglect, apathy, sarcasm, self-interest 
and greed.


As my father said to me, "I grew up when Canada was free.  It was sublime".

"The true north strong and free" indeed.  I suspect the reason 
Canada didn't support the US action in the gulf was more out of the 
fear of not being able to defend ourselves than any moral stand.


I find it fascinating that virtually nothing has been said in this 
forum about London.


But you just did. Thankyou.

Lots of argument about what each person thinks their "unimpeachable" 
sources of information say.


Who are you quoting please? I can't find that word used in the 
discussions, let alone in that context.


Nothing about the current event that demonstrates the face of this 
evil, and the nature of the value systems that executed these 
actions.


Nothing about all the dominoes toppled elsewhere that brought us all 
to this either.



There is nothing that can justify these  actions,


Who wants to justify them?

nor nothing that would cause me to ever sit at a table to negiotiate 
anything other than an unconditional surrender and the 
incarceration/ execution of the perps.


You're talking the language of blame. As recent history has shown 
rather loudly, it's this kind of thinking that lashes out, desperate 
to find someone to punish, oblivious to all else, such as the reasons 
for the attack, the long chains of cause and consequence that have 
brought us all to "London" as you call it, which stretch back 
sometimes to not quite what you might expect. That's what a lynch mob 
does. So we must lash out again, maybe at altogether the wrong target 
again, and set in motion more chains of causes and consequences that 
bring us to more "London's", just as it's brought us to other places 
and dates. It's called sowing dragon's teeth. Osama bin Laden is 
exactly a dragon's tooth.


Rather than raise a lynch mob it makes much more sense to find out 
just what happened and trace it back to its causes - who, what, 
where, when, why and how (a good reporter answers all those questions 
in the first 25 words). But where there's lots of blame-talk flying 
around raising such questions can get a person accused of attempting 
to justify the crime, being "soft on terrorists".


Anyway, how would you make certain that they're the right perps?

The picture that's emerging in other posts is that none of the perps 
imprisoned were perps anyway, only a andlful have been charged, 
huindreds of others or more were innocent, and the REAL perps remain 
free. So that didn't work very well. Meanwhile there were 3,192 
terror attacks worldwide last year with 28,433 people wounded, killed 
or kidnapped. So that isn't working very well either.


Anyway, the Brits are coping with it, as one would expect, they're 
tough and level-headed folk. *They* know that there's a hell of a lot 
more to London than just "London".


What do you think of Spain's response to "Madrid"?

Best wishes

Keith

"You can never solve a problem with the same kind of thinking that 
created the problem in the first place"

- Albert Einstein.



Best regards... Tim

--
We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are.



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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

intentional neglect, if you ask me.

since the '70s the right wing (primarily) of the political establishment has 
been arguing that america's next great challenge was going to be terrorism.  
they dialed up this rehetoric considerably when reagan got ito office, and 
redoubled it after the collapse of the fsu.  of course, they knew what they 
were 
talking about, because they were very well aware of what america's policy in 
the middle east was breeding.

the bush family has very close ties to the saudi royal family and the bin 
laden family going back more than 30 years.  connect the dots. . . .

-chris b.


In a message dated 7/8/05 2:22:50 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< You'll never understand it if you see it in the polarised 
American Clinton vs Bush keyhole view. Both were responsible, but 
especially Bush, as an abundance of evidence, testimony and 
subsequent revelation of sheer neglect has shown, much of it in the 
list archive for your convenience. >>

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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-09 Thread Tim Brodie


Garth & Kim Travis wrote:


Greetings Robert,
Wouldn't it be nice if we could just trade passports, then I could 
vote against the nonsense that is going on in the states.  Actually, 
when I was in France back in the 1980s, everyone assumed I was 
American because my French is so poor and All Canadians spoke french.  
At least that is what the Canadian propaganda stated.  That and 
southern Albertans tend to have a bit of a drawl, after all, it is 
Texas North, isn't it?  Most people, even here is Texas are surprised 
to find out I am Canadian.  I always thought that identifying with a 
country was kind of silly.


It's silly with respect to how fluid a country actually can be (in terms 
of what it is).  The Canada I grew up in and loved no longer exists, and 
hasn't for the last 15 years.  What has been foisted on us is awful, and 
I find myself without a country.


However, the values that made Canada great are largely still present in 
the USA, so here I am.  I don't find the loss of Canada silly, and I 
don't find my growing identification with the USA silly.  One only needs 
to watch what results when something as valuable as Canada is destroyed 
through neglect, apathy, sarcasm, self-interest and greed.


As my father said to me, "I grew up when Canada was free.  It was sublime".

"The true north strong and free" indeed.  I suspect the reason Canada 
didn't support the US action in the gulf was more out of the fear of not 
being able to defend ourselves than any moral stand.


I find it fascinating that virtually nothing has been said in this forum 
about London.  Lots of argument about what each person thinks their 
"unimpeachable" sources of information say.  Nothing about the current 
event that demonstrates the face of this evil, and the nature of the 
value systems that executed these actions.  

There is nothing that can justify these  actions, nor nothing that would 
cause me to ever sit at a table to negiotiate anything other than an 
unconditional surrender and the incarceration/ execution of the perps.


Best regards... Tim

--
We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are.


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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

back in the '80s i started comparing the dual-party system here to choosing
between coke and pepsi. with some satisfaction, i sometimes hear that same
sentiment from others.

i must admit, though, that while at first i was quite in favor of dean, my
disappointment was short-lived once he got sidelined. since kerry seemed the
nominee-apparent, i tried to find out what i could about him beyond what the
media was providing. what i found surprised me. if there was a single
democratic nominee in the past quarter century with solid credentials, it had
to be
kerry. his post-vietnam efforts (on behalf of both the veterans and the truth
about what happened there), and his instrumental role in getting the c.i.a. to
admit to its role in the L.A. crack epidemic, are just two examples.

how credentials like his could get morphed into the pathetic candidate we saw
in 2000 is beyond me. compare that platform to his record in the senate, and
it's quite startling. but that seems to be the strategic choice the democrat
ic party has made in the post-reagan era: centrism as philosophy/policy i.e.
ideology, in contrast to the republican use of centrist rhetoric as a campaign
tactic.

all the sadder when you consider the wasted potential of other former
democratic leaders, esp. carter, mondale and clinton (although the former and
the
latter aren't without their black marks). i look at interviews they've done
and
am truly impressed by their intellect and insight.

-chris b.
--- Begin Message ---

Thanks Ryan. I'm with you on everything you said.
You mentioned the Dems. Nader called Democrats and Republicans part of a vast duopoly and I tend to agree. The platforms of both Bush and Kerry were strikingly similar. Ironically (or maybe not), the Nader campaign received very little air time in the media and was shut out of political debates. I'm not sure how much you know about Nader but, based on his credentials and the credentials of his running mate, Peter Miguel Camejo, there was a real opportunity to have a legitimate president in the White House. I have no doubt that both of them would have demonstrated their feelings toward the sanctity of life with legitimate and peaceful solutions to poverty, hunger and civil liberties (among other things).
Here is some biographical information on Camejo. His background makes Bush and Kerry look pretty inadequate. Despite that, the media and political maneuvering by Bush and Kerry shut them out.
Peter Miguel Camejo: He marched in Selma, Alabama with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., rallied for migrant farm workers and was active against the war in Vietnam. He was admitted to MIT after receiving a perfect score on the Math SAT test. He attended UC Berkeley where he studied history. In 1967, after winning a student council election at UC Berkeley he was suspended for "using an unauthorized microphone" protesting the Vietnam War. When he was 20 he competed in the Olympics in Italy as a yachtsman.
http://www.votenader.org/media_press/index.php?cid=80
Put that alongside our presidents academic record and failed business attempts. Hell, just getting him to speak a coherent and complete sentence would be a step in the right direction.
Mike
Ryan Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Michael
>As an American citizen, I must believe that there are >people in the world who understand that not all >Americans stand by this president and that there is a >difference between a people and its government
There are quite a few of us out there.
The problem is that many of the people who didn't like what this administration stood for, also didn't vote. The Bush campaign did a marvelous job of making their constituency happy come campaign time and also made sure that the things their constituency cared about (abortion, gay marriage etc.) got on the ballot. This spurred them to go vote so that them gay baby killin' librils won't take the country from 'em.
The Dems did a terrible job of rallying support. Dean was doing great with the youth, but of course he screamed into a microphone and apparantly that makes him unfit to be president...hey, at least he could speak, right.
Ryan
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_

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-09 Thread Ryan Hall


Hakan,
be without any substance. No WMDs or program to produce them have

been found in Iraq. In UK this is a big scandal and Blair is suffering from
it,
but the Americans seems to be more tolerant about their government's lies
about it.

Somebody posted earlier calling us Sheeple...that explains our tolerance. 
LOL





What is the probability that
they would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the Americans
surprised, when the Iraqis do not love them? Is it not understandable that
some of the Iraqis want to kill Americans, how would you react in their
situation?




I have brought this up to several poeple, they all just look confused, like 
they can't handle the possibility that we are the bad guys.  I use this 
example:
If France decided that George W. Bush was a threat to them and said, well 
lets make a preemptive strike, then they came here and said to us, "we are 
liberating you from this oppressive government."
You can bet on the majority of the American population picking up some guns 
and fighting the intruders.  The news would say it was our only hope for 
survival.  And the NRA (National Rifle Association) would have a field day.

Most people still cannot grasp the concept.

Here is the link to that "respected" talk show host.  This is the entire 
transcript, all of what he said.


http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_070705/content/rush_is_right.guest.html

This will give you an idea of why we are so "accepting of our governments 
lies, Hakan.


Don't get me wrong, he's very fun to listen to, but eventually I have to 
turn it off and form my own opinion.
If you surf the site, you will notice a veeery conservative bias.  Again, no 
problem with this, I just don't agree.  Without left we can have no right. 
The problem is when they get out of balance, yin and yang.


Happy Day to all
Ryan 



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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Greetings,
The last election that I was able to vote in was in 1988.  The last time I 
contacted a Senator to complain about a policy being put in place, I was 
told that this is not my country and that if I didn't like it I could go 
back where I came from.  I have 4 more years to go before I can apply for 
citizenship and then I can have a say.  While I am not proud of what 
America has become, I do live here and I am not planning on leaving, so I 
will take citizenship so I can have a say in how sane or insane life is to be.


I don't believe that violence would accomplish much of anything at this 
point, all it does is get tempers up and brains turned off.  Triggering the 
defence mechanism is not how to effect change for the better.  We live a 
sane life, working to establish a sustainable farm and having the teenagers 
come and visit and see what we are doing.  Some of them are getting rather 
interested in biofuels, are learning that being cool is worthless, and the 
value of having the skills to look after oneself.  We try to live as if the 
world was the way we want it to be, funny thing, the people aren't laughing 
at us as much as they used to.


You and I aren't all that far apart.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 03:03 PM 7/8/2005, you wrote:

Garth & Kim Travis wrote:


Greetings Robert,
Wouldn't it be nice if we could just trade passports, then I could vote 
against the nonsense that is going on in the states.


I DO vote, Kim.  For the first time in my life, during the last 
election, I held my nose and voted for a Democrat!  The problem I saw at 
that time was that Mr. Kerry didn't seem to be fundamentally different in 
his platform than was the case for Mr. Bush.  Some will argue this with 
me, but it seems, from my perspective, that we've been dealing with two 
sides of a single coin for a long time.


We've talked about radical reform on this list in the past.  The 
Declaration of Independence advocates the forceful overthrow of any 
government not acting in the interest of its people.  I don't advocate 
violence, so from my perspective, the reform process begins with 
discussions of this nature, in forums such as this one.


I would like to see greater freedom AND responsibility for 
individuals.  (The latter would include responsibility for bringing 
children into the world, and a sliding scale for health insurance 
premiums based upon lifestyle choices.  For example, if you smoke, your 
health insurance should cover palliative care when you develop lung 
cancer or heart disease, and nothing more.  We need to be responsible for 
our own stupidity!)  I would like the Homestead Act reinstated.  I would 
like the rights set forth in the Bill of Rights to extend to citizens, 
not corporations.  I would like local churches to act as catalysts in 
improving their communities.  I want REAL reform of energy policy, with 
responsible improvements in efficiency, investing in technology and 
products available RIGHT NOW that can significantly reduce our energy 
consumption.


Education reform, limits on the political power of unions and 
lobbyists, the abolition of agribusiness, a fundamental redesign of the 
transportation networks in our cities to reduce dependence on 
automobiles, investment in infrastructure and a total reformulating of 
national defense policies are essential.  I would like to see a national 
"propaganda" campaign promoting the values of thrift, of limiting 
consumption and conservation of resources and wild places.


I can go on and on about these kinds of things. . .

I vote.  I speak out.  Those of us who can, should advocate to 
take our country back.


Actually, when I was in France back in the 1980s, everyone assumed I was 
American because my French is so poor and All Canadians spoke french.  At 
least that is what the Canadian propaganda stated.


Out here in the west, there is quite a bit of animosity toward 
Quebec for the power it wields in Canadian politics, and the mandate of 
French language instruction.  However, my eldest son is in the French 
Immersion program because we as a family believe in the benefits of 
multilingual education.




I always thought that identifying with a country was kind of silly.


There's nothing wrong with identifying with a country, as long as 
that identity doesn't preclude the merit of someone else belonging to a 
different country.



robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782>

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


...struck a nerve did I.  :>)

Okay, mission accomplished :>)   :>):>)

Jerry Turner


No it's not. You made some very wild claims and six list members have 
questioned you on them.


It says this in the List rules too: "If someone questions you, don't 
just ignore them. You should be prepared to substantiate what you 
say, or to acknowledge it if you can't. Admitting you were wrong 
doesn't mean you "lose face", it gains you respect."
http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 
5-May/07.html


Your mission will be accomplished when you've responded with 
something more substantial than a two-line sneer. You have one day.


Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/
Biofuel list owner





- Original Message -
From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Jill,

Should you be able to rationalize within some degree of reason how Mr.
Turner's remarks were not due to "lack of and disjointed reasoning," and
how the malodorous stink generated by such ill ferment is spread to the
four winds as seed to bespoil whatever fertile ground on which it may
land, then I would surely consider modifying or perhaps even retracting
one or two of my remarks.





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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-08 Thread RobertCVA




 
Jill,
 
I think your lengthy posting about the content of this list was 
well-intentioned, but as a number of responses have indicated, problematic for 
some of us.
 
Just a few things I wanted to point out.
 
Regarding your statement that "Baghdad, for the past 30 [1975-2005] years, 
was THE hotbed of terrorist support."  It is my understanding that in 
February 1982 the State Department (under the Reagan Administration) removed 
Iraq from its list of states supporting international terrorism.  And then 
there's the (in?)famous meeting of current Defense Secretary Rumsfeld with 
Saddam Hussein in which areas of common interest were discussed.
 
You also mention that Iran and North Korea would love to destroy us, 
although you do imply maybe the driving force in North Korea is their unstable 
leader.   Statements like that bring to mind other statements, usually 
made by those on the far right and irresponsible talk show types, along the 
lines that we should bomb the offending countries into smithereens.   
Sadly tens of millions of innocent individuals, most of whom have suffered 
hugely under the evil leaders who are perceived to, or actually, threaten us, 
would die or suffer even more enormously.  So a caution to avoid 
talking as though countries or their peoples are necessarily the ones posing the 
threats per se.
 
Regarding Iraq as a healthy country, I do not see it as a healthy 
development that Iraq's leadership is thumbing it's nose at us by entering into 
military relationships with Iran, who you'll remember was one of George Bush's 
Axis of Evil and in his words, a leading sponsor of terrorism.
 
Finally, your quote from Rush included some high-minded words.  
However, I see a great deal of dissonance between those words and the hateful, 
fear mongering, words that too often spew from his mouth.  Interesting that 
he speaks of "God-given freedom."   Well, as a sometime agnostic, I 
can't say what God's role has been in our freedoms.   What I can say, 
and say unequivocably I think -- as someone who has served during the Vietnam 
era and the descendant of many generations of soldiers -- is that our freedoms 
were earned in significant part by the blood and dedication of many brave 
individuals.  It certainly angers me to no end to hear the 
pontifications of the "chicken hawks" who support the Iraq war and question the 
patriotism of anyone who questions Bush & Co.'s motivations or competence in 
waging this war.  (Sorry, I just had to vent on that last one.)
 
Bob
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Re: Jill - Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

me to stop it. That's what we're
> >trying to achieve. But as long as we're not united here and the voices of
> >opposition to this continually misrepresent what our objective is, and
> >continually misrepresent our purpose as just "we want oil, Bush and Cheney
> >want oil, or Halliburton needs more money," or what have you, as 
long as it
> >keeps being obfuscated like that, it's just going to make the 
task all that

> >much more difficult, as World War II would have been that much more
> >difficult had we not been unified in beating Hitler and Japan and all the
> >others, Mussolini, that we faced. So it's not easy. It's very, very hard.
> >But the answer ultimately, the short version is, we have to establish
> >circumstances that we know exist because they work here. Culturally it
> >doesn't matter; all cultures come to this country and thrive because of
> >freedom. We need to establish the same circumstances where human beings
> >around the world have the same grand, God-given freedom we do to determine
> >their own fate. The vast majority of free people want to pursue life,
> >liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, not learning how to fly airplanes
> >into buildings.  - Rush
> >
> >Best regards,
> >
> >Jill Mello
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >- Original Message -
> >From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: 
> >Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 8:32 AM
> >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
> >
> >
> > > Jerry Turner,
> > >
> > > Pull your head out of your back socket son and grab some fresh air, at
> > > least enough so as to start seeing straight instead of being 
asphyxiated

> > > by your own  stink.
> > >
> > > Perhaps the reason why Mr. Chomsky doesn't mention September 11th and
> > > doesn't play upon the lives lost is because that event and the Iraq war
> > > are completely unrelated. In case you've managed to grab a little fresh
> > > air by now -  presuming you stilll have the strength left to relax your
> > > sphincter and let some air flow - it was Benladin and his lot that
> > > wreaked havoc upon NYC, not Iraq, "stupid."
> > >
> > > One should suppose, using your lack of and disjointed reasoning, that
> > > your household would ground your fourteen year old for life 
because your

> > > sixteen year old stole the keys to your car and wrecked it. Or maybe
> > > it's just anyone with a genetic tan and dark hair? After all, "they all
> > > look alike to you," anyway, right?
> > >
> > > And, presuming you can remember back so recently, it was your mindset
> > > that was crucifying Mr. Clinton for attempting strikes, declaring that
> > > they were intentional distractions from his "domestic" 
concerns. And you

> > > might also care (probably not) to take a moment to remember that in his
> > > exit briefing to "Mr." Bush, Mr. Clinton warned that the biggest threat
> > > to national security at that time was Benladin and Al Quaeda.
> > > Unfortunately, the new leader of "the free world" chose to dismiss this
> > > advice and declared that a national missile defense system was the
> > > biggest national security priority.
> > >
> > > But you'd rather white wash Bush's blunder and declare it as someone
> > > else's fault.
> > >
> > > Make up your mind. Or, like the rest of uncivil society on your side of
> > > the fence, is your expectation to have the best of all worlds and leave
> > > reality and truth completely out of your fabricated picture?
> > >
> > > What seems extremely obvious is the fact that what you "know" is
> > > relatively little in comparison to what the rest of the world knows.
> > >
> > > Todd Swearingen
> > >
> > >
> > > Jerry Turner wrote:
> > >
> > > >NOWHERE in Mr. Noam Chomsky post is mentioned that over 2600 AMERICANS
> >lost
> > > >their lives and did so on AMERICAN soil!!
> > > >
> > > >IMO you would have to be a total moron to even think that 
the terrorist
> > > >would have been satisfied taking down the WTC!  Hell no they 
would have

> >kept
> > > >on killing AMERICANS at every opportunity.
> > > >
> > > >  If Clinton would have had the guts to run this country instead of
> >getting
> > > >blows jobs

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-08 Thread Appal Energy


Jerry Turner,

"Struck a nerve?" Hardly. Just that this house doesn't cotton to fools 
all that well.


"Mission accomplished?" So your intent is to lavishly spew ignorance and 
stupidity? You don't have anything better to do with the one human 
existance you were graciously given?


Go ahead. Knock yourself out. Waste the talents you were given in 
destructive pursuit. Take as many as you like along with you.


I for one, consider that to be the mindset of a terrorist. Every bit as 
lethal in its own right and equally as destructive.


If there is a God, no doubt neither he or she is terribly pleased with 
the wastefulness of your endeavors..


Todd Swearingen


Jerry Turner wrote:


...struck a nerve did I.  :>)

Okay, mission accomplished :>)   :>):>)

Jerry Turner



- Original Message - 
From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Jill,

Should you be able to rationalize within some degree of reason how Mr.
Turner's remarks were not due to "lack of and disjointed reasoning," and
how the malodorous stink generated by such ill ferment is spread to the
four winds as seed to bespoil whatever fertile ground on which it may
land, then I would surely consider modifying or perhaps even retracting
one or two of my remarks.

On the other hand, as Mr. Turner's remarks are aggregiously in error and
his purpose is blatantly apparent as one to politicize and malign in the
effort to diminutize and dissassociate truth from reality, he opens
himself up for the full gell coat that his foolishness affords him, no
matter whether it be in a public forum or not. Preferable that it be
public for the entire world to see.

Life is too short to molly coddle persons who feign to be adults in the
effort to not offend their delicate sensibilities.

And if you don't believe that such myopic mindsets don't have anything
to do with biofuels, just examine the wrong-mindedness of the present US
administration accross the board. The same disjointed, erroneous and
fabricated reasoning that has been applied to Iraq is being applied to
fuel efficiency, conservation, natural resources, global warming,
nuclear power, proliferation and trade - all of which are, were and will
be connected long before and long after Dubbya is gone.

As for your complaints about "talk show chatter?" You bitch about
opposing view point and then go on to read a full page, chapter and
verse, as to the opinions of your favorite, radical, right-wing,
"so-ultra-'conservative'-as-to-have-long-since-fallen-off-the-edge-of-the-flat-Earth"
talk show host yesterday. What's up with that?

You say that differing opinions are "what's beautiful about this
country." (The US.) But you denegrate not only differing opinons from
your own, but others who tend to rely more upon fact than opinion.

Perhaps you'd care to explain away your own inconsistancy and doble
standards on those two accounts?  Such incongruities are okay when they
suit your purpose and anything that doesn't suit your purpose or opinion
is apparently not okay? Apparently differing opinions are what make your
world so beautiful, because without them you wouldn't have a podium from
which to bitch?

Oh..., by the by, if you have the time (doubtful, but "if") pulling up
but a few installments of Limbaughtomized archives (much less the past
thirteen) will reveal that your favorite talk show host is far more of a
war-monger than the peace maker that you romatacize him to be. And he's
always been that way. Most folks find that a continual diet of such
showmanship peppered swill leaves them so socially emaciated - at all
levels - that they must find a more balanced diet lest they starve
themselves.

Death by nationalism. It's happened before and is returning to a theatre
near you.

Todd Swearingen

"Have you been Limbaughtomized yet?"



Jill Mello wrote:

 


Okay,

I joined this list to talk about how to create & run engines on biofuel, 
now

I find I'm bombarded with talk show chatter in my e-mail box?  This debate
runs into our daily lives and affects our thoughts and pocketbooks
tremendously.  However, it would be nice if we were respectful by not
stating that people have "lack of and disjointed reasoning" and stating to
get their head "out of their own stink".  In doing this, you insult all of
us who have the view that the war in Irag is essential to our security.

Baghdad, for the past 30 years, was THE hotbed of terrorist support.  If 
YOU

look at the information out there, you will find the basis for the war.
Most people I know, and I'm from the New England, next to California, the
most liberal minded area of the country, have found that once they've
reviewed ALL the information

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-08 Thread Jerry Turner

...struck a nerve did I.  :>)

 Okay, mission accomplished :>)   :>):>)

 Jerry Turner

- Original Message - 
From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

Jill,

Should you be able to rationalize within some degree of reason how Mr.
Turner's remarks were not due to "lack of and disjointed reasoning," and
how the malodorous stink generated by such ill ferment is spread to the
four winds as seed to bespoil whatever fertile ground on which it may
land, then I would surely consider modifying or perhaps even retracting
one or two of my remarks.

On the other hand, as Mr. Turner's remarks are aggregiously in error and
his purpose is blatantly apparent as one to politicize and malign in the
effort to diminutize and dissassociate truth from reality, he opens
himself up for the full gell coat that his foolishness affords him, no
matter whether it be in a public forum or not. Preferable that it be
public for the entire world to see.

Life is too short to molly coddle persons who feign to be adults in the
effort to not offend their delicate sensibilities.

And if you don't believe that such myopic mindsets don't have anything
to do with biofuels, just examine the wrong-mindedness of the present US
administration accross the board. The same disjointed, erroneous and
fabricated reasoning that has been applied to Iraq is being applied to
fuel efficiency, conservation, natural resources, global warming,
nuclear power, proliferation and trade - all of which are, were and will
be connected long before and long after Dubbya is gone.

As for your complaints about "talk show chatter?" You bitch about
opposing view point and then go on to read a full page, chapter and
verse, as to the opinions of your favorite, radical, right-wing,
"so-ultra-'conservative'-as-to-have-long-since-fallen-off-the-edge-of-the-flat-Earth"
talk show host yesterday. What's up with that?

You say that differing opinions are "what's beautiful about this
country." (The US.) But you denegrate not only differing opinons from
your own, but others who tend to rely more upon fact than opinion.

Perhaps you'd care to explain away your own inconsistancy and doble
standards on those two accounts?  Such incongruities are okay when they
suit your purpose and anything that doesn't suit your purpose or opinion
is apparently not okay? Apparently differing opinions are what make your
world so beautiful, because without them you wouldn't have a podium from
which to bitch?

Oh..., by the by, if you have the time (doubtful, but "if") pulling up
but a few installments of Limbaughtomized archives (much less the past
thirteen) will reveal that your favorite talk show host is far more of a
war-monger than the peace maker that you romatacize him to be. And he's
always been that way. Most folks find that a continual diet of such
showmanship peppered swill leaves them so socially emaciated - at all
levels - that they must find a more balanced diet lest they starve
themselves.

Death by nationalism. It's happened before and is returning to a theatre
near you.

Todd Swearingen

"Have you been Limbaughtomized yet?"

Jill Mello wrote:

>Okay,
>
>I joined this list to talk about how to create & run engines on biofuel, 
>now
>I find I'm bombarded with talk show chatter in my e-mail box?  This debate
>runs into our daily lives and affects our thoughts and pocketbooks
>tremendously.  However, it would be nice if we were respectful by not
>stating that people have "lack of and disjointed reasoning" and stating to
>get their head "out of their own stink".  In doing this, you insult all of
>us who have the view that the war in Irag is essential to our security.
>
>Baghdad, for the past 30 years, was THE hotbed of terrorist support.  If 
>YOU
>look at the information out there, you will find the basis for the war.
>Most people I know, and I'm from the New England, next to California, the
>most liberal minded area of the country, have found that once they've
>reviewed ALL the information out there, not just what they hear on the news
>and in the newspapers (God help us with the Boston Globe!) that the reality
>is that Hussein PAID, in thousands of US dollars, people to blow themselves
>up, encouraged the terrorist training camps, supplied Bin Laden with safe
>have, worked with Syria to provide comfort to our enemy and threatened us
>with creating nuclear arms.
>
>Does this mean that Iran and N. Korea should be ignored?  No, as Iran is a
>complicated mess and N. Korea has a leader who is varifiably insane.  Both
>would love to wipe us off the map.  But, Iraq being a healthy country will
>help us in influencin

Re: Jill - Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-08 Thread Bill Fenech

who have the view that the war in Irag is essential to our security.
> >
> >Baghdad, for the past 30 years, was THE hotbed of terrorist support.  If YOU
> >look at the information out there, you will find the basis for the war.
> >Most people I know, and I'm from the New England, next to California, the
> >most liberal minded area of the country, have found that once they've
> >reviewed ALL the information out there, not just what they hear on the news
> >and in the newspapers (God help us with the Boston Globe!) that the reality
> >is that Hussein PAID, in thousands of US dollars, people to blow themselves
> >up, encouraged the terrorist training camps, supplied Bin Laden with safe
> >have, worked with Syria to provide comfort to our enemy and threatened us
> >with creating nuclear arms.
> >
> >Does this mean that Iran and N. Korea should be ignored?  No, as Iran is a
> >complicated mess and N. Korea has a leader who is varifiably insane.  Both
> >would love to wipe us off the map.  But, Iraq being a healthy country will
> >help us in influencing other countries to discourage terrorists.
> >
> >You do not have to agree with me, that's what is beautiful about this
> >country.  I have friends fighting and training Iraqi troops, their culture
> >is one of fear, they don't dare disagree with a leader, it's been ingrained
> >in them from birth.  It will take some years of US presence to help
> >alleviate this.  You and I don't have that, we are allowed to speak, but
> >what is essential is that we do it respectfully.  I enjoy a good debate, but
> >not one that tears others down.  I ask that if you are posting to a public
> >site, like this one, that you keep it respectful.
> >
> >A well-respected talk show host said the following yesterday,
> >If we were united in this country, if we all understood what the purpose
> >here was, that it's all about guarding against another terrorist attack for
> >our kids and grandkids, all about making sure there's not another 9/11 -- or
> >if there is, we'll know of it in enough time to stop it. That's what we're
> >trying to achieve. But as long as we're not united here and the voices of
> >opposition to this continually misrepresent what our objective is, and
> >continually misrepresent our purpose as just "we want oil, Bush and Cheney
> >want oil, or Halliburton needs more money," or what have you, as long as it
> >keeps being obfuscated like that, it's just going to make the task all that
> >much more difficult, as World War II would have been that much more
> >difficult had we not been unified in beating Hitler and Japan and all the
> >others, Mussolini, that we faced. So it's not easy. It's very, very hard.
> >But the answer ultimately, the short version is, we have to establish
> >circumstances that we know exist because they work here. Culturally it
> >doesn't matter; all cultures come to this country and thrive because of
> >freedom. We need to establish the same circumstances where human beings
> >around the world have the same grand, God-given freedom we do to determine
> >their own fate. The vast majority of free people want to pursue life,
> >liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, not learning how to fly airplanes
> >into buildings.  - Rush
> >
> >Best regards,
> >
> >Jill Mello
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >- Original Message -
> >From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: 
> >Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 8:32 AM
> >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
> >
> >
> > > Jerry Turner,
> > >
> > > Pull your head out of your back socket son and grab some fresh air, at
> > > least enough so as to start seeing straight instead of being asphyxiated
> > > by your own  stink.
> > >
> > > Perhaps the reason why Mr. Chomsky doesn't mention September 11th and
> > > doesn't play upon the lives lost is because that event and the Iraq war
> > > are completely unrelated. In case you've managed to grab a little fresh
> > > air by now -  presuming you stilll have the strength left to relax your
> > > sphincter and let some air flow - it was Benladin and his lot that
> > > wreaked havoc upon NYC, not Iraq, "stupid."
> > >
> > > One should suppose, using your lack of and disjointed reasoning, that
> > > your household would ground your fourteen year old for life because your
> > > sixteen year old stole the keys to your car

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Garth & Kim Travis wrote:


Greetings Robert,
Wouldn't it be nice if we could just trade passports, then I could vote 
against the nonsense that is going on in the states.


	I DO vote, Kim.  For the first time in my life, during the last 
election, I held my nose and voted for a Democrat!  The problem I saw 
at that time was that Mr. Kerry didn't seem to be fundamentally 
different in his platform than was the case for Mr. Bush.  Some will 
argue this with me, but it seems, from my perspective, that we've been 
dealing with two sides of a single coin for a long time.


	We've talked about radical reform on this list in the past.  The 
Declaration of Independence advocates the forceful overthrow of any 
government not acting in the interest of its people.  I don't advocate 
violence, so from my perspective, the reform process begins with 
discussions of this nature, in forums such as this one.


	I would like to see greater freedom AND responsibility for 
individuals.  (The latter would include responsibility for bringing 
children into the world, and a sliding scale for health insurance 
premiums based upon lifestyle choices.  For example, if you smoke, 
your health insurance should cover palliative care when you develop 
lung cancer or heart disease, and nothing more.  We need to be 
responsible for our own stupidity!)  I would like the Homestead Act 
reinstated.  I would like the rights set forth in the Bill of Rights 
to extend to citizens, not corporations.  I would like local churches 
to act as catalysts in improving their communities.  I want REAL 
reform of energy policy, with responsible improvements in efficiency, 
investing in technology and products available RIGHT NOW that can 
significantly reduce our energy consumption.


	Education reform, limits on the political power of unions and 
lobbyists, the abolition of agribusiness, a fundamental redesign of 
the transportation networks in our cities to reduce dependence on 
automobiles, investment in infrastructure and a total reformulating of 
national defense policies are essential.  I would like to see a 
national "propaganda" campaign promoting the values of thrift, of 
limiting consumption and conservation of resources and wild places.


I can go on and on about these kinds of things. . .

	I vote.  I speak out.  Those of us who can, should advocate to take 
our country back.


Actually, when I 
was in France back in the 1980s, everyone assumed I was American because 
my French is so poor and All Canadians spoke french.  At least that is 
what the Canadian propaganda stated.


	Out here in the west, there is quite a bit of animosity toward Quebec 
for the power it wields in Canadian politics, and the mandate of 
French language instruction.  However, my eldest son is in the French 
Immersion program because we as a family believe in the benefits of 
multilingual education.




I always thought that identifying with a country was kind of silly.


	There's nothing wrong with identifying with a country, as long as 
that identity doesn't preclude the merit of someone else belonging to 
a different country.



robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782>

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


"I do believe it was Erasmus that was the original citizen of the world, too bad his ideas didn't lay a bigger egg that the one Luther hatched."
 
Good point Kim.
 
We have been effected by (infected with) the legacy of both Luther and Calvin.
 

MAX WEBER ON RELIGION AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENThttp://www.unm.edu/~nvaldes/371/Lect17.htm
Mike
Garth & Kim Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Greetings Robert,Wouldn't it be nice if we could just trade passports, then I could vote against the nonsense that is going on in the states. Actually, when I was in France back in the 1980s, everyone assumed I was American because my French is so poor and All Canadians spoke french. At least that is what the Canadian propaganda stated. That and southern Albertans tend to have a bit of a drawl, after all, it is Texas North, isn't it? Most people, even here is Texas are surprised to find out I am Canadian. I always thought that identifying with a country was kind of silly. I do believe it was Erasmus that was the original citizen of the world, too bad his ideas didn't lay a bigger egg that the one Luther hatched.Have a good weekend.Bright Blessings,Kim___
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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Greetings Robert,
Wouldn't it be nice if we could just trade passports, then I could vote 
against the nonsense that is going on in the states.  Actually, when I was 
in France back in the 1980s, everyone assumed I was American because my 
French is so poor and All Canadians spoke french.  At least that is what 
the Canadian propaganda stated.  That and southern Albertans tend to have a 
bit of a drawl, after all, it is Texas North, isn't it?  Most people, even 
here is Texas are surprised to find out I am Canadian.  I always thought 
that identifying with a country was kind of silly.  I do believe it was 
Erasmus that was the original citizen of the world, too bad his ideas 
didn't lay a bigger egg that the one Luther hatched.

Have a good weekend.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 01:24 PM 7/8/2005, you wrote:

Garth & Kim Travis wrote:


Greetings,
I don't disagree, but Canada does so much of the US's dirty work, that 
anyone who is knowledgeable is going to tar Canada with the same brush.


Perhaps you are correct.  However, the perception of the United 
States in much of the world is fundamentally different than the 
perception of Canada, and a great part of that perception stems from 
American foreign policy.



 I am real tired of Canadians self righteous muck about the US, when 
they are in bed with Monsanto et al, just the same.


You bring up an excellent point, Kim.  Others have also 
underlined the concept that the U.S. is merely the latest in a LONG 
STRING of international bullies.  The problem with my nation begins 
somewhere in the human heart.  The same is true elsewhere.



Kim
A World citizen with a Canadian passport.



robert luis rabello
A citizen of God's Kingdom with an American passport.



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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Garth & Kim Travis wrote:


Greetings,
I don't disagree, but Canada does so much of the US's dirty work, that 
anyone who is knowledgeable is going to tar Canada with the same brush.


	Perhaps you are correct.  However, the perception of the United 
States in much of the world is fundamentally different than the 
perception of Canada, and a great part of that perception stems from 
American foreign policy.



 I am real tired of Canadians self righteous muck about the US, when 
they are in bed with Monsanto et al, just the same.


	You bring up an excellent point, Kim.  Others have also underlined 
the concept that the U.S. is merely the latest in a LONG STRING of 
international bullies.  The problem with my nation begins somewhere in 
the human heart.  The same is true elsewhere.



Kim
A World citizen with a Canadian passport.



robert luis rabello
A citizen of God's Kingdom with an American passport.



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RE: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid





Chris wrote: "Has anybody actually been convicted for being directly involved in the 9/11 attack..."
 
"Of the 120 terrorism cases recorded on Findlaw, the major information source for legal cases of note, the initial major charges leveled have resulted in only two actual terrorism convictions -- both in a single case, that of Richard Reid, the notorious shoe bomber. Of 18 actual charges of "terrorism" brought between September 2001 and October 2004, 15 are still pending and one was dismissed."
 
http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?emx=x&pid=2256
 
This doesn't count the "enemy combatants" who are left with their captors and accusers as their judge jury and executioners. It also doesn't count the unknown number of prisoners who have been taken to proxy torturers as part of the "extraordinary rendition" program, in order to bypass human rights laws to which our government has previously agreed to honor.
 
While we are prosecuting and torturing the potentially innocent, there is almost no notice of the war crimes committed by the current administration of which the Downing Street memos provide evidence.
 
"May 17 - The White House's top lawyer warned more than two years ago that U.S. officials could be prosecuted for "war crimes" as a result of new and unorthodox measures used by the Bush administration in the war on terrorism, according to an internal White House memo and interviews with participants in the debate over the issue."
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4999734/site/newsweek/
 
Mike
 
Chris Lloyd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Benladin and his lot that wreaked havoc upon NYC, not Iraq, "stupid."

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Greetings,
I don't disagree, but Canada does so much of the US's dirty work, that 
anyone who is knowledgeable is going to tar Canada with the same 
brush.  Good examples of what I am saying is the software developed by 
Canada for electronic tracking of persons and words and the latest nonsense 
of not allowing delegates to the symposium on GE foods in Montreal.  Canada 
is as much under the same control of the same multinationals as the US 
is.  I am real tired of Canadians self righteous muck about the US, when 
they are in bed with Monsanto et al, just the same.

Bright Blessings,
Kim
A World citizen with a Canadian passport.

At 11:22 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote:

Garth & Kim Travis wrote:


Greetings,
Canada has had terrorist attacks, from its own people.  Remember the 
FLQ?  They kidnapped the Prime Ministers best friend in an attempt to 
break Canada into 2 countries.  The emergency measures act is fully equal 
to the patriot act.  And yes, it has been implemented in my 
lifetime.  Each country has its own problems, trying to say anyone is 
perfect is nonsense.


That wasn't my point, Kim.  You are correct that every nation has 
its problems, but the FLQ was a domestic organization, just like the SLA 
(remember them?) was a domestic organization.  What I'm trying to 
communicate, is that American foreign policy directly impacts the 
attitudes people maintain toward the United States.


Do you disagree?


robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782>

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Jill - Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

debate, but
not one that tears others down.  I ask that if you are posting to a public
site, like this one, that you keep it respectful.

A well-respected talk show host said the following yesterday,
If we were united in this country, if we all understood what the purpose
here was, that it's all about guarding against another terrorist attack for
our kids and grandkids, all about making sure there's not another 9/11 -- or
if there is, we'll know of it in enough time to stop it. That's what we're
trying to achieve. But as long as we're not united here and the voices of
opposition to this continually misrepresent what our objective is, and
continually misrepresent our purpose as just "we want oil, Bush and Cheney
want oil, or Halliburton needs more money," or what have you, as long as it
keeps being obfuscated like that, it's just going to make the task all that
much more difficult, as World War II would have been that much more
difficult had we not been unified in beating Hitler and Japan and all the
others, Mussolini, that we faced. So it's not easy. It's very, very hard.
But the answer ultimately, the short version is, we have to establish
circumstances that we know exist because they work here. Culturally it
doesn't matter; all cultures come to this country and thrive because of
freedom. We need to establish the same circumstances where human beings
around the world have the same grand, God-given freedom we do to determine
their own fate. The vast majority of free people want to pursue life,
liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, not learning how to fly airplanes
into buildings.  - Rush

Best regards,

Jill Mello

- Original Message -
From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

> Jerry Turner,
>
> Pull your head out of your back socket son and grab some fresh air, at
> least enough so as to start seeing straight instead of being asphyxiated
> by your own  stink.
>
> Perhaps the reason why Mr. Chomsky doesn't mention September 11th and
> doesn't play upon the lives lost is because that event and the Iraq war
> are completely unrelated. In case you've managed to grab a little fresh
> air by now -  presuming you stilll have the strength left to relax your
> sphincter and let some air flow - it was Benladin and his lot that
> wreaked havoc upon NYC, not Iraq, "stupid."
>
> One should suppose, using your lack of and disjointed reasoning, that
> your household would ground your fourteen year old for life because your
> sixteen year old stole the keys to your car and wrecked it. Or maybe
> it's just anyone with a genetic tan and dark hair? After all, "they all
> look alike to you," anyway, right?
>
> And, presuming you can remember back so recently, it was your mindset
> that was crucifying Mr. Clinton for attempting strikes, declaring that
> they were intentional distractions from his "domestic" concerns. And you
> might also care (probably not) to take a moment to remember that in his
> exit briefing to "Mr." Bush, Mr. Clinton warned that the biggest threat
> to national security at that time was Benladin and Al Quaeda.
> Unfortunately, the new leader of "the free world" chose to dismiss this
> advice and declared that a national missile defense system was the
> biggest national security priority.
>
> But you'd rather white wash Bush's blunder and declare it as someone
> else's fault.
>
> Make up your mind. Or, like the rest of uncivil society on your side of
> the fence, is your expectation to have the best of all worlds and leave
> reality and truth completely out of your fabricated picture?
>
> What seems extremely obvious is the fact that what you "know" is
> relatively little in comparison to what the rest of the world knows.
>
> Todd Swearingen
>
>
> Jerry Turner wrote:
>
> >NOWHERE in Mr. Noam Chomsky post is mentioned that over 2600 AMERICANS
lost
> >their lives and did so on AMERICAN soil!!
> >
> >IMO you would have to be a total moron to even think that the terrorist
> >would have been satisfied taking down the WTC!  Hell no they would have
kept
> >on killing AMERICANS at every opportunity.
> >
> >  If Clinton would have had the guts to run this country instead of
getting
> >blows jobs in the oval office, 9/11 would have never happenedyou know
it
> >and I know it.
> >
> >Jerry Turner
> >
> >- Original Message -
> >From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: 
> >Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 2:44 PM
> >Subject: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid
> >
>

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-08 Thread Hakan Falk

inion is that you are trying
to sell naive dreams to me and that they are based on the propaganda in
your country.


It will take some years of US presence to help
alleviate this.


It is some real base for the beliefs that the US motives are self serving
and energy related. The US presence will not help and it is too many
examples of negative US influence, to belive that Iraq would be an exception.
We have yet to see a US involvement in a country that did not have
significant natural resources or strategical location for development of
such resources. US even financially supported the Taliban in Afghanistan,
in exchange for promises to allow the long sought pipe line project.


You and I don't have that, we are allowed to speak, but
what is essential is that we do it respectfully.  I enjoy a good debate, but
not one that tears others down.  I ask that if you are posting to a public
site, like this one, that you keep it respectful.


We are privileged, in this you are right. It is however not really productive,
because I know too much to subscribe to your views and do not belive that
you will be effected by what I am saying. It is no purpose in our debate,
other than that it is public and will give others some chance to evaluate and
form their opinions.



A well-respected talk show host said the following yesterday,
If we were united in this country, if we all understood what the purpose
here was, that it's all about guarding against another terrorist attack for
our kids and grandkids, all about making sure there's not another 9/11 -- or
if there is, we'll know of it in enough time to stop it. That's what we're
trying to achieve.


In that case you have to correctly evaluate the involvement and direction
of your government's global policies and actions. The following opinions does
not give me much hope.


But as long as we're not united here and the voices of
opposition to this continually misrepresent what our objective is, and
continually misrepresent our purpose as just "we want oil, Bush and Cheney
want oil, or Halliburton needs more money," or what have you, as long as it
keeps being obfuscated like that, it's just going to make the task all that
much more difficult,


It is a undisputable fact that the US own oil reserves would only last 7 
years,

with the current consumption. Natural Gas reserves would last less than
10 years. It would be very irresponsible if your president and government 
would

not be very occupied (fixated) with this problem, as the most important in US
modern times. It is not an obfuscation, it is a very real and present fact.

The current administration is trying to implement a solution as the subject
header suggest,
"It's imperialism, stupid"
and this have nothing to do with the following,


as World War II would have been that much more
difficult had we not been unified in beating Hitler and Japan and all the
others, Mussolini, that we faced. So it's not easy. It's very, very hard.
But the answer ultimately, the short version is, we have to establish
circumstances that we know exist because they work here. Culturally it
doesn't matter; all cultures come to this country and thrive because of
freedom. We need to establish the same circumstances where human beings
around the world have the same grand, God-given freedom we do to determine
their own fate. The vast majority of free people want to pursue life,
liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, not learning how to fly airplanes
into buildings.  - Rush


which is more declarations for popular consumption. It is nothing new and
very similar to the officially declared policies of "Hitler and Japan and 
all the

others, Mussolini, that we faced.". This if you are interested to read their
speeches. Not only that, those guys faced the same kind of energy resource
problem as US is facing today.



Best regards,

Jill Mello


same to you.

Hakan






- Original Message -
From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


> Jerry Turner,
>
> Pull your head out of your back socket son and grab some fresh air, at
> least enough so as to start seeing straight instead of being asphyxiated
> by your own  stink.
>
> Perhaps the reason why Mr. Chomsky doesn't mention September 11th and
> doesn't play upon the lives lost is because that event and the Iraq war
> are completely unrelated. In case you've managed to grab a little fresh
> air by now -  presuming you stilll have the strength left to relax your
> sphincter and let some air flow - it was Benladin and his lot that
> wreaked havoc upon NYC, not Iraq, "stupid."
>
> One should suppose, using your lack of and disjointed reasoning, that
> your household would ground your fourteen year old for life because your
&

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Garth & Kim Travis wrote:


Greetings,
Canada has had terrorist attacks, from its own people.  Remember the 
FLQ?  They kidnapped the Prime Ministers best friend in an attempt to 
break Canada into 2 countries.  The emergency measures act is fully 
equal to the patriot act.  And yes, it has been implemented in my 
lifetime.  Each country has its own problems, trying to say anyone is 
perfect is nonsense.


	That wasn't my point, Kim.  You are correct that every nation has its 
problems, but the FLQ was a domestic organization, just like the SLA 
(remember them?) was a domestic organization.  What I'm trying to 
communicate, is that American foreign policy directly impacts the 
attitudes people maintain toward the United States.


Do you disagree?


robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782>

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: Re[2]: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-08 Thread Ryan Hall


Gustl,
If we do not then our government and those supporting
its  actions  are  no  better  than those who did the deed on 9/11.

It would seem we are worse still.  They wanted revenge for something we did 
long ago, we want money.  Furthermore, they took something like 4 hours to 
do their damage.  We have been in Iraq since the beginning of 2003.  So we 
are at 2 years and counting.  And still polls are showing that around 58% of 
the country supports staying in Iraq (abc news poll 
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/PollVault/story?id=885745 )


I haven't watched television in about 2 months, so I'm not really up and up 
on what I'm supposed to believe.


Ryan 



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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-08 Thread Appal Energy

 this.  You and I don't have that, we are allowed to speak, but
what is essential is that we do it respectfully.  I enjoy a good debate, but
not one that tears others down.  I ask that if you are posting to a public
site, like this one, that you keep it respectful.

A well-respected talk show host said the following yesterday,
If we were united in this country, if we all understood what the purpose
here was, that it's all about guarding against another terrorist attack for
our kids and grandkids, all about making sure there's not another 9/11 -- or
if there is, we'll know of it in enough time to stop it. That's what we're
trying to achieve. But as long as we're not united here and the voices of
opposition to this continually misrepresent what our objective is, and
continually misrepresent our purpose as just "we want oil, Bush and Cheney
want oil, or Halliburton needs more money," or what have you, as long as it
keeps being obfuscated like that, it's just going to make the task all that
much more difficult, as World War II would have been that much more
difficult had we not been unified in beating Hitler and Japan and all the
others, Mussolini, that we faced. So it's not easy. It's very, very hard.
But the answer ultimately, the short version is, we have to establish
circumstances that we know exist because they work here. Culturally it
doesn't matter; all cultures come to this country and thrive because of
freedom. We need to establish the same circumstances where human beings
around the world have the same grand, God-given freedom we do to determine
their own fate. The vast majority of free people want to pursue life,
liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, not learning how to fly airplanes
into buildings.  - Rush

Best regards,

Jill Mello




- Original Message - 
From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


 


Jerry Turner,

Pull your head out of your back socket son and grab some fresh air, at
least enough so as to start seeing straight instead of being asphyxiated
by your own  stink.

Perhaps the reason why Mr. Chomsky doesn't mention September 11th and
doesn't play upon the lives lost is because that event and the Iraq war
are completely unrelated. In case you've managed to grab a little fresh
air by now -  presuming you stilll have the strength left to relax your
sphincter and let some air flow - it was Benladin and his lot that
wreaked havoc upon NYC, not Iraq, "stupid."

One should suppose, using your lack of and disjointed reasoning, that
your household would ground your fourteen year old for life because your
sixteen year old stole the keys to your car and wrecked it. Or maybe
it's just anyone with a genetic tan and dark hair? After all, "they all
look alike to you," anyway, right?

And, presuming you can remember back so recently, it was your mindset
that was crucifying Mr. Clinton for attempting strikes, declaring that
they were intentional distractions from his "domestic" concerns. And you
might also care (probably not) to take a moment to remember that in his
exit briefing to "Mr." Bush, Mr. Clinton warned that the biggest threat
to national security at that time was Benladin and Al Quaeda.
Unfortunately, the new leader of "the free world" chose to dismiss this
advice and declared that a national missile defense system was the
biggest national security priority.

But you'd rather white wash Bush's blunder and declare it as someone
else's fault.

Make up your mind. Or, like the rest of uncivil society on your side of
the fence, is your expectation to have the best of all worlds and leave
reality and truth completely out of your fabricated picture?

What seems extremely obvious is the fact that what you "know" is
relatively little in comparison to what the rest of the world knows.

Todd Swearingen


Jerry Turner wrote:

   


NOWHERE in Mr. Noam Chomsky post is mentioned that over 2600 AMERICANS
 


lost
 


their lives and did so on AMERICAN soil!!

IMO you would have to be a total moron to even think that the terrorist
would have been satisfied taking down the WTC!  Hell no they would have
 


kept
 


on killing AMERICANS at every opportunity.

If Clinton would have had the guts to run this country instead of
 


getting
 


blows jobs in the oval office, 9/11 would have never happenedyou know
 


it
 


and I know it.

Jerry Turner

- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 2:44 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


See also:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9394.htm
Terror Attacks Near 3,200 in 2004 Count



http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9387.htm

It's imper

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Greetings,
Canada has had terrorist attacks, from its own people.  Remember the 
FLQ?  They kidnapped the Prime Ministers best friend in an attempt to break 
Canada into 2 countries.  The emergency measures act is fully equal to the 
patriot act.  And yes, it has been implemented in my lifetime.  Each 
country has its own problems, trying to say anyone is perfect is nonsense.

Bright Blessings,
Kim


At 10:17 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote:

Jerry Turner wrote:
snip
This is a tired argument.  How many terrorist attacks have 
occurred in Canada?  (Count them, it should tell you something 
important.)  Has it ever occurred to you that the best defense against 
international terrorism consists of maintaining cordial relations with 
other nations?  You err because you assume that no causal relationship 
exists between American foreign policy and the 11 September atrocity.




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RE: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-08 Thread Chris Lloyd

> Benladin and his lot that wreaked havoc upon NYC, not Iraq, "stupid."
<

   I'm not even sure that he knew about the attack, I saw the first
video he put out after 9/11 with the corrected voice over. He never
claimed responsibility for himself or his terror groups. He did say he
thought that America got what it disserved and the people who did it
were heroes. I would have thought that after pulling off an attack like
that he would have bragged about it like he did with his attacks in
Afghanistan. 
   Has anybody actually been convicted for being directly involved in
the 9/11 attack, the only people arrested/convicted in the UK have been
done for "Being members of a terrorist organisation" or even being
friends of someone thought to be a member of a terrorist organisation.
After arresting nearly 400 people in the UK less than 10 have been
convicted or sent to the US. Chris.   

Wessex Ferret Club  (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk)

 


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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Jerry Turner wrote:

NOWHERE in Mr. Noam Chomsky post is mentioned that over 2600 AMERICANS lost 
their lives and did so on AMERICAN soil!!



	This is a tired argument.  How many terrorist attacks have occurred 
in Canada?  (Count them, it should tell you something important.)  Has 
it ever occurred to you that the best defense against international 
terrorism consists of maintaining cordial relations with other 
nations?  You err because you assume that no causal relationship 
exists between American foreign policy and the 11 September atrocity.



IMO you would have to be a total moron to even think that the terrorist 
would have been satisfied taking down the WTC!  Hell no they would have kept 
on killing AMERICANS at every opportunity.


	Which they are doing regularly, in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Apparently, 
they killed a bunch of innocent Britons yesterday.  This is what 
happens when we respond to violence with violence.



  If Clinton would have had the guts to run this country instead of getting 
blows jobs in the oval office, 9/11 would have never happenedyou know it 
and I know it.


	Personally, I didn't like Mr. Clinton, but the 11 September events 
did not take place on his watch.  I know that blame is better to give 
than receive, but your simplistic view of the issue solves nothing. 
The perspective you've outlined will be the ruination of our country.




robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782>

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

"If YOU look at the information out there, you will find the basis for the war."
People in this forum have found it important to address the effect of misinformation directed at us from the White House, defense department and corporate media which have been, by enlarge, the cause of statements like the one above.
If you really feel strongly about defending your current position, I suspect that Todd will not be your only sparring partner in this debate.
MikeJill Mello <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Okay,I joined this list to talk about how to create & run engines on biofuel, nowI find I'm bombarded with talk show chatter in my e-mail box? This debateruns into our daily lives and affects our thoughts and pocketbookstremendously. However, it would be nice if we were respectful by notstating that people have "lack of and disjointed reasoning" and stating toget their head "out of their own stink". In doing this, you insult all ofus who have the view that the war in Irag is essential to our security.Baghdad, for the past 30 years, was THE hotbed of terrorist support. If YOUlook at the information out there, you will find the basis for the war.Most people I know, and I'm from the New England, next to California, themost liberal minded area of the country, have found that once they'vereviewed ALL the information out there, not
just what they hear on the newsand in the newspapers (God help us with the Boston Globe!) that the realityis that Hussein PAID, in thousands of US dollars, people to blow themselvesup, encouraged the terrorist training camps, supplied Bin Laden with safehave, worked with Syria to provide comfort to our enemy and threatened uswith creating nuclear arms.Does this mean that Iran and N. Korea should be ignored? No, as Iran is acomplicated mess and N. Korea has a leader who is varifiably insane. Bothwould love to wipe us off the map. But, Iraq being a healthy country willhelp us in influencing other countries to discourage terrorists.You do not have to agree with me, that's what is beautiful about thiscountry. I have friends fighting and training Iraqi troops, their cultureis one of fear, they don't dare disagree with a leader, it's been ingrainedin them from birth. It will take some years of US presence to helpalleviate
this. You and I don't have that, we are allowed to speak, butwhat is essential is that we do it respectfully. I enjoy a good debate, butnot one that tears others down. I ask that if you are posting to a publicsite, like this one, that you keep it respectful.A well-respected talk show host said the following yesterday,If we were united in this country, if we all understood what the purposehere was, that it's all about guarding against another terrorist attack forour kids and grandkids, all about making sure there's not another 9/11 -- orif there is, we'll know of it in enough time to stop it. That's what we'retrying to achieve. But as long as we're not united here and the voices ofopposition to this continually misrepresent what our objective is, andcontinually misrepresent our purpose as just "we want oil, Bush and Cheneywant oil, or Halliburton needs more money," or what have you, as long as itkeeps being obfuscated like that,
it's just going to make the task all thatmuch more difficult, as World War II would have been that much moredifficult had we not been unified in beating Hitler and Japan and all theothers, Mussolini, that we faced. So it's not easy. It's very, very hard.But the answer ultimately, the short version is, we have to establishcircumstances that we know exist because they work here. Culturally itdoesn't matter; all cultures come to this country and thrive because offreedom. We need to establish the same circumstances where human beingsaround the world have the same grand, God-given freedom we do to determinetheir own fate. The vast majority of free people want to pursue life,liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, not learning how to fly airplanesinto buildings. - RushBest regards,Jill Mello----- Original Message - From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To:
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 8:32 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid> Jerry Turner,>> Pull your head out of your back socket son and grab some fresh air, at> least enough so as to start seeing straight instead of being asphyxiated> by your own stink.>> Perhaps the reason why Mr. Chomsky doesn't mention September 11th and> doesn't play upon the lives lost is because that event and the Iraq war> are completely unrelated. In case you've managed to grab a little fresh> air by now - presuming you stilll have the strength left to relax your> sphincter and let some air flow - it was Benladin and his lot that> wreaked havoc upon NYC, not Iraq, "stupid.">> One should suppo

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-08 Thread Jill Mello

Okay,

I joined this list to talk about how to create & run engines on biofuel, now
I find I'm bombarded with talk show chatter in my e-mail box?  This debate
runs into our daily lives and affects our thoughts and pocketbooks
tremendously.  However, it would be nice if we were respectful by not
stating that people have "lack of and disjointed reasoning" and stating to
get their head "out of their own stink".  In doing this, you insult all of
us who have the view that the war in Irag is essential to our security.

Baghdad, for the past 30 years, was THE hotbed of terrorist support.  If YOU
look at the information out there, you will find the basis for the war.
Most people I know, and I'm from the New England, next to California, the
most liberal minded area of the country, have found that once they've
reviewed ALL the information out there, not just what they hear on the news
and in the newspapers (God help us with the Boston Globe!) that the reality
is that Hussein PAID, in thousands of US dollars, people to blow themselves
up, encouraged the terrorist training camps, supplied Bin Laden with safe
have, worked with Syria to provide comfort to our enemy and threatened us
with creating nuclear arms.

Does this mean that Iran and N. Korea should be ignored?  No, as Iran is a
complicated mess and N. Korea has a leader who is varifiably insane.  Both
would love to wipe us off the map.  But, Iraq being a healthy country will
help us in influencing other countries to discourage terrorists.

You do not have to agree with me, that's what is beautiful about this
country.  I have friends fighting and training Iraqi troops, their culture
is one of fear, they don't dare disagree with a leader, it's been ingrained
in them from birth.  It will take some years of US presence to help
alleviate this.  You and I don't have that, we are allowed to speak, but
what is essential is that we do it respectfully.  I enjoy a good debate, but
not one that tears others down.  I ask that if you are posting to a public
site, like this one, that you keep it respectful.

A well-respected talk show host said the following yesterday,
If we were united in this country, if we all understood what the purpose
here was, that it's all about guarding against another terrorist attack for
our kids and grandkids, all about making sure there's not another 9/11 -- or
if there is, we'll know of it in enough time to stop it. That's what we're
trying to achieve. But as long as we're not united here and the voices of
opposition to this continually misrepresent what our objective is, and
continually misrepresent our purpose as just "we want oil, Bush and Cheney
want oil, or Halliburton needs more money," or what have you, as long as it
keeps being obfuscated like that, it's just going to make the task all that
much more difficult, as World War II would have been that much more
difficult had we not been unified in beating Hitler and Japan and all the
others, Mussolini, that we faced. So it's not easy. It's very, very hard.
But the answer ultimately, the short version is, we have to establish
circumstances that we know exist because they work here. Culturally it
doesn't matter; all cultures come to this country and thrive because of
freedom. We need to establish the same circumstances where human beings
around the world have the same grand, God-given freedom we do to determine
their own fate. The vast majority of free people want to pursue life,
liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, not learning how to fly airplanes
into buildings.  - Rush

Best regards,

Jill Mello




- Original Message - 
From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


> Jerry Turner,
>
> Pull your head out of your back socket son and grab some fresh air, at
> least enough so as to start seeing straight instead of being asphyxiated
> by your own  stink.
>
> Perhaps the reason why Mr. Chomsky doesn't mention September 11th and
> doesn't play upon the lives lost is because that event and the Iraq war
> are completely unrelated. In case you've managed to grab a little fresh
> air by now -  presuming you stilll have the strength left to relax your
> sphincter and let some air flow - it was Benladin and his lot that
> wreaked havoc upon NYC, not Iraq, "stupid."
>
> One should suppose, using your lack of and disjointed reasoning, that
> your household would ground your fourteen year old for life because your
> sixteen year old stole the keys to your car and wrecked it. Or maybe
> it's just anyone with a genetic tan and dark hair? After all, "they all
> look alike to you," anyway, right?
>
> And, presuming you can remember back so recently, it was your mindset
>

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-08 Thread Frantz DESPREZ


Gustl Steiner-Zehender a écrit :


Hallo Frantz,

The  US does allow dual citizenship with conditions.  Children born of
US citizens abroad may have dual citizenship in the case of US service
personnel at the very least.  Jews may have dual citizenship no matter
where they are born is my understanding.  I know folks who have German
and  US citizenship because they were born in Germany with an American
father and German mother.  Things are not so cut and dried as they may
seem.

Interesting, I only knew my brother case : after married an american he 
had to choose US nationality or keep his french EU passport. I believed 
it was an exclusive choice.
I also have family in Germany where the "right of blood" is in use (you 
are german whereever you're born if you're parents are germans, but 
you're not automatically german if born in Germany), compared to France 
where "right of soil" applies (you are french, even from foreign parents 
if you're born on french soil).
Of course nothing is so simple. That makes things exciting... and 
exhausting.


frantz,
rather exhausted today ;-)

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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-08 Thread Appal Energy


Jerry Turner,

Pull your head out of your back socket son and grab some fresh air, at 
least enough so as to start seeing straight instead of being asphyxiated 
by your own  stink.


Perhaps the reason why Mr. Chomsky doesn't mention September 11th and 
doesn't play upon the lives lost is because that event and the Iraq war 
are completely unrelated. In case you've managed to grab a little fresh 
air by now -  presuming you stilll have the strength left to relax your 
sphincter and let some air flow - it was Benladin and his lot that 
wreaked havoc upon NYC, not Iraq, "stupid."


One should suppose, using your lack of and disjointed reasoning, that 
your household would ground your fourteen year old for life because your 
sixteen year old stole the keys to your car and wrecked it. Or maybe 
it's just anyone with a genetic tan and dark hair? After all, "they all 
look alike to you," anyway, right?


And, presuming you can remember back so recently, it was your mindset 
that was crucifying Mr. Clinton for attempting strikes, declaring that 
they were intentional distractions from his "domestic" concerns. And you 
might also care (probably not) to take a moment to remember that in his 
exit briefing to "Mr." Bush, Mr. Clinton warned that the biggest threat 
to national security at that time was Benladin and Al Quaeda. 
Unfortunately, the new leader of "the free world" chose to dismiss this 
advice and declared that a national missile defense system was the 
biggest national security priority.


But you'd rather white wash Bush's blunder and declare it as someone 
else's fault.


Make up your mind. Or, like the rest of uncivil society on your side of 
the fence, is your expectation to have the best of all worlds and leave 
reality and truth completely out of your fabricated picture?


What seems extremely obvious is the fact that what you "know" is 
relatively little in comparison to what the rest of the world knows.


Todd Swearingen


Jerry Turner wrote:

NOWHERE in Mr. Noam Chomsky post is mentioned that over 2600 AMERICANS lost 
their lives and did so on AMERICAN soil!!


IMO you would have to be a total moron to even think that the terrorist 
would have been satisfied taking down the WTC!  Hell no they would have kept 
on killing AMERICANS at every opportunity.


 If Clinton would have had the guts to run this country instead of getting 
blows jobs in the oval office, 9/11 would have never happenedyou know it 
and I know it.


Jerry Turner

- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 2:44 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


See also:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9394.htm
Terror Attacks Near 3,200 in 2004 Count



http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9387.htm

It's imperialism, stupid

By Noam Chomsky

07/05/05 "ICH" - - IN his June 28 speech, President Bush asserted
that the invasion of Iraq was undertaken as part of "a global war
against terror" that the United States is waging. In reality, as
anticipated, the invasion increased the threat of terror, perhaps
significantly.

Half-truths, misinformation and hidden agendas have characterised
official pronouncements about US war motives in Iraq from the very
beginning. The recent revelations about the rush to war in Iraq stand
out all the more starkly amid the chaos that ravages the country and
threatens the region and indeed the world.

In 2002 the US and United Kingdom proclaimed the right to invade Iraq
because it was developing weapons of mass destruction. That was the
"single question," as stressed constantly by Bush, Prime Minister
Blair and associates. It was also the sole basis on which Bush
received congressional authorisation to resort to force.

The answer to the "single question" was given shortly after the
invasion, and reluctantly conceded: The WMD didn't exist. Scarcely
missing a beat, the government and media doctrinal system concocted
new pretexts and justifications for going to war.

"Americans do not like to think of themselves as aggressors, but raw
aggression is what took place in Iraq," national security and
intelligence analyst John Prados concluded after his careful,
extensive review of the documentary record in his 2004 book
"Hoodwinked."

Prados describes the Bush "scheme to convince America and the world
that war with Iraq was necessary and urgent" as "a case study in
government dishonesty ... that required patently untrue public
statements and egregious manipulation of intelligence." The Downing
Street memo, published on May 1 in The Sunday Times of London, along
with other newly available confidential documents, have deepened the
record of deceit.

The memo came from a meeting of Blair's war cabinet on July

Re[2]: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-08 Thread Gustl Steiner-Zehender

Hallo Frantz,

The  US does allow dual citizenship with conditions.  Children born of
US citizens abroad may have dual citizenship in the case of US service
personnel at the very least.  Jews may have dual citizenship no matter
where they are born is my understanding.  I know folks who have German
and  US citizenship because they were born in Germany with an American
father and German mother.  Things are not so cut and dried as they may
seem.

Happy Happy,

Gustl

Friday, 08 July, 2005, 03:47:08, you wrote:
...snip...
FD> Hakan,

FD> a beginning of explanation could be the double nationality. USA don't 
FD> allow dual citizenship when it's legal in France and many other countries.
FD> So for exemple, my nephews, born in Washington state from a US mother 
FD> and a French father, and actually living in France, have both US and 
FD> French nationality regarding to the french law. At their legal majority, 
FD> they will can choose...or not. But regarding the US law, they're only US.
FD> So I guess that if they were among the 9-11 victims, US would have count 
FD> them as US and the french gov as french citizens.

FD> frantz,
FD> world citizen

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FD> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
messages):
FD> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/






-- 
Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns.

We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails.

The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, 
soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, 
without signposts.  
C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters"

Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, 
daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht 
gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden.

Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't
hear the music.  
George Carlin

The best portion of a good man's life -
His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love.
William Wordsworth



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Re[2]: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-08 Thread Gustl Steiner-Zehender

Hallo Jerry,

Thursday, 07 July, 2005, 18:16:39, you wrote:

JT> NOWHERE  in  Mr.  Noam  Chomsky  post  is mentioned that over 2600
JT> AMERICANS lost their lives and did so on AMERICAN soil!!

JT> IMO  you  would  have  to  be a total moron to even think that the
JT> terrorist  would  have been satisfied taking down the WTC! Hell no
JT> they would have kept on killing AMERICANS at every opportunity.

What  on  earth  does  this have to do with what is happening in Iraq?
There  was  not  one Iraqi among that lot and it has been amply proven
that Iraq was not aiding or abetting terrorists, not friendly with bin
Laden,  had  destroyed what US-supplied WMD it did have, was complying
with  UN requirements albeit slowly and grudgingly and not a threat to
anyone  outside the immediate region.  Chomsky is talking about apples
and  you're  talking  about  oranges  friend.   What you are saying is
comparable  to  saying,   "Mexico  has attacked the United States.  We
need  to defend ourselves therefore we shall attack Canada."  There is
neither rhyme nor reason to that.

Being  angry  is  reasonable.   Being  a tool is not.  The majority of
those   identified   as   the  perpetrators were Saudi's.  Everyone in
the  government  knew that and it was widely reported in our own media
yet Bush decided to attack the Iraqi's.  He used the events of 9/11 as
a  reason  to  push  his  own  twisted agenda and he used the American
public  as  tools  to  further  that  agenda.   I don't know about you
friend,  but  I don't like being used, I don't like seeing US military
personnel  killed for no good reason and I most definitely do not like
being  lumped  in  with those twisted individuals who think it is fine
and dandy to go kill innocent people to push a political agenda.

What  is happening in Iraq has nothing to do with patriotism, justice,
right,  morality  or  anything  else.   It  is  entirely  about money,
politics   and   a   spurious   religious   belief   called  Christian
reconstructionism  or dominionism which is neither Christian nor moral
despite its name and is fundamental to neocon philosophy.

You  need  to  do  your  homework  friend  and connect the dots by the
numbers.   You  have  bought  into a lie.  Your name is new to me so I
will  let  you  know  that  I have 8 years in the military and two Nam
tours  and  belong  to  the  VFW as well.  This has nothing to do with
patriotism  it  has  to do with ethics and morality and the government
has  come  up  lacking.   We  are  in  the wrong and it is time we got
ourselves  straight  and  right.   We  can only do this if we have the
truth  and  it is available.  Your heart may be in the right place but
your  head  is not brother.  It is tough to admit that your country is
doing  something entirely immoral but the truth is the truth.  We were
intentionally  mislead  and  we need to correct that.  Truth and right
require  that.   If we do not then our government and those supporting
its  actions  are  no  better  than those who did the deed on 9/11.  I
can't believe that is what you want.

Happy Happy,

Gustl
JT> If  Clinton would have had the guts to run this country instead of
JT> getting  blows  jobs  in  the  oval  office, 9/11 would have never
JT> happenedyou know it and I know it.
JT> Jerry Turner
This started way before Clinton.  Blame enough for everyone.
...snip...

-- 
Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns.

We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails.

The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, 
soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, 
without signposts.  
C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters"

Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, 
daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht 
gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden.

Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't
hear the music.  
George Carlin

The best portion of a good man's life -
His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love.
William Wordsworth



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RE: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid




Niel,
 
First, If you call me "sir", I'll think your addressing my father.
 
Second, let me say that I only wish it was so easy to explain. I get a lot of "You voted for him". No, I did not vote for him. Putting all the blame squarely on the shoulders of the voters is blatantly oversimplified and ignores my previous comments on this countries duopoly and corporate influence. I have yet to see a candidate that I vote for and feel good about (and I'm not alone). We are limited to "bad" and "worse".
 
"...dirty little wars the yanks have caused (list to long to mention )"
 
Agreed. I'm glad you didn't list them. We in this forum already know about the "list" and discussed it in an earlier thread. Every time I look in a phone book, I am reminded of the holocaust that occurred on American soil -- not because of what's in it, but because of what's missing. I also know that every country had a turn at imperialism and committing of atrocities. So, spare me the finger pointing.
 
American voters are being slowly squeezed out of the democratic process (see earlier posts on eminent domain) and a ruling class is victimizing both citizens and non-citizens alike.
 
An earlier post was from a member who addressed himself as a "world citizen". I couldn't agree more. We should look at ourselves as exactly that.
 
MikeNeil Goatman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


sir
on the country we of the rest of the world think all americans are as their leaders 
they let him in (not elected )
so they are all tared with the same bush till they get smart and get rid of him and actually elect someone 
the world does not see as a bozo war monger ruled by corporations 
I do not condone terrism but nor do i support the dirty little wars the yanks have caused (list to long to mention )
the money they spend could rid the world of all poverty forever 
yanky go home was a cry that still applies 
Neil

-Original Message-From: Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, 8 July 2005 9:35 AMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid



Thanks Kieth.After reading the article by Naom Chomsky, Two things stood out in my mind and two statements keep me from forgetting them.
"That (the existence of WMD's) was the "single question," as stressed constantly by Bush, Prime Minister Blair and associates. It was also the sole basis on which Bush received congressional authorisation to resort to force."
"Iraq and other possible conflicts in the future could provide recruitment, training grounds, technical skills and language proficiency for a new class of terrorists who are 'professionalised' and for whom political violence becomes an end in itself."
1.) There is no length to which an American president will go to make a case for war.
2.) There is no length to which an American president will go to perpetuate conflict "in the name of..."
As an American citizen, I must believe that there are people in the world who understand that not all Americans stand by this president and that there is a difference between a people and its government.
Considering the circumstances of last two elections, the overwhelming cash flow and the influence it bought through the use corporate resources, many of us know who won the last two elections and why. The most disturbing aspect of the last two elections is that under our current duopoly, the victory would not have changed, irrespective of who finally moved into White House.  
George Bush: "Every life is precious-that's what distinguishes us from the enemy." The irony is incredible!100,000 Excess Iraqi Deaths Since War - Studyhttp://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1028-08.htm
See also: http://www.restructures.net/chicago/Iraq.htm
Impeachable offenses committed without a formal investigation or serious media coverage.
...but don't you dare get caught with a girlfriend in the Oval Office.
Peace,
Mike

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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Frantz wrote: "USA don't allow dual citizenship"
 
I am a dual citizen of the USA and Switzerland.
 
As far as being citizen of the world, many of us in this forum have already expressed our agreement on that vision. A thread on that can be found in the archives.
 
Mike Frantz DESPREZ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hakan Falk a écrit :>> Frantz,>> I have looked at several lists and if you look at the one you> pointed to, it is some lack of definitions. If you look at from> country and citizenship as an example. It is Indian sites that> says the they had 43 victims, the English at 67 seems to> be quite common. I gave up and do not understand why it would> be so difficult with one list on origin and get it accurate.>> The best number I can get for Americans in WTC, is 1,700+> and this is probably quite accurate and common. For the rest,> it is large variations. In Spain the number of Spanish is much> higher and I know of two families who lost a member in WTC> and they are not even mentioned on your list.>> It is often said that the victims represented 115 countries and>
 your list with 36, is the lowest I have seen.>> It is a mess and I cannot understand why.Hakan,a beginning of explanation could be the double nationality. USA don't allow dual citizenship when it's legal in France and many other countries.So for exemple, my nephews, born in Washington state from a US mother and a French father, and actually living in France, have both US and French nationality regarding to the french law. At their legal majority, they will can choose...or not. But regarding the US law, they're only US.So I guess that if they were among the 9-11 victims, US would have count them as US and the french gov as french citizens.frantz,world citizen___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to
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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid