t-and-f: Puking
Netters On the issue of puking after workouts. Michelle reminds me that we all had to eat school lunch. Which may be the best explanation yet. Mike Rohl Asst. Coach Sprints Jumps Mansfield University
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
Netters Michael Contopoulos writes: American's start running too late. We need to get our kids out there and running at 6 years old. You wouldn't think twice shoving your kid off to soccer practice, giving him tennis lessons, or signing him up for little league... Yes, I would think twice about sending my children out. There are a lot of things that we can do here to improve athletics but special training at age 6 is not one of them
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
Michael Contopoulos writes: I ask you why? Because the injury rates are higher and the risk of never being able to compete later is higher and because the succsess rate is so low. To be clear for every one kid that is good at 15 there are thousands who lie in a waste land of burnout and injury. In general the very best athletes in any sport participate in a variety ot sports usually focusing on one in their early to middle teens progressing to higher levels into their mid to late 20s. Once again, age group swimming is widely popular. So is Brittnay spears, that doesn't make her actually good. You see tennis players begin and even go on the tour at age 14 or 15 Mostly Females their. No one thinks twice about sending their kid out to play pee wee baseball. No one thinks twice about dragging their son along on the golf course, in the dead of summer, for 5 hours and 18 holes. Michael, I don't know if you have kids or not but all parents think twice about these type of things. Your attitude, in my opinion, is why we are no longer good distance runners. My opinion about children doing sports at a young age has little to do with the quality of distance runners in the U.S. This is a complicated issue and yours and Kebas simplified ideas of runnig more at a younger age and raising expectations gloss over really important issues of genetics, training, quality of lfe and much much more. There is not one solid reason why getting your son out there running at an early age is any worse than having him play any other sport at an early age. My son in fact runs every day. Sometimes we play soccor, somtimes he runs at the track while I do my training, somtimes he long jumps, sometimes he runs with is cousins, playing some kind of army game and sometimes he plays with his dog SPot. Not that much different then most Kenyan boys of age 8 except maybe the name of the dog. Mike
Re: t-and-f: What do Tiger Woods,
alan tobin writes: That is precisely the reason why Kenya has so many good runners because they have thousands more who burnout or get injuried. At a young age they train, train, train and those who make it go on to greatness and those who don't lay burned out or injuried on the sidelines or even worse...become a part of the US collegiate system (GASP!). Ignoring the fact that there are not really thousands of Kenyan kids training. I have to say that i am not, nor ever will be, a proponet of the next please coaching philosphy. Michael Rohl Asst. Coach Sprints Jumps Mansfield University/
Re: t-and-f: SI article about most overrated and underrated
Netters Gerald wrote - incorrectly: As for Steve Scott, he ran great when it was not a major meet, but did nothing in the Olympics or World's.Great athletes perform in All meets unless they are sick or injured! Steve was not injured in those meets and still did not perform. He had a Silver at the world in 83 and had he not been talked into going away from his strength he would have been better than 5th in L.A. Indeed someone mentioned the import who scored a medal in 91 in the marathon. No, Spence was Bronze in 91 - from PA. Plajetes was Gold in 93. Mike
Re: t-and-f: RE: t-and-f: El G's pace in Zürich
Netters This statement: I believe Edmonton's altitude is about 2100 feet, not 1200. This is true and is equal to the Highest Point in WIsconsin, Known as Tim's Hill. There is NO effect on performance in either the sprints or distances at 2000 feet. The Air pressure is essentialy the same. Coming from a guy who lived at 9000 feet. Mike
Re: t-and-f: Altitude correction... opinion stands...
Netters Ed Dana Parrot writes: However, if a physical adaptation DOES occur, then it stands to reason that even with adaptation the times will be slower for distance runners. There is no biological impetus for acclimatization to occur. Nor is a week enough time for one to occur. Altitude acclimatization takes 3-5 weeks given an individual is in a hypoxic state for 48-72 hours and they have an EPO boost. Further I would like to point out for all you EPO critics my hematocrit, after one year of living at 9000 feet was 48 border line illegal in cycling. And you all better damn well believe I'm clean. Mike Rohl
Re: t-and-f: Morceli, El Guerrouj and pacing - best runner or kicker
Netters Geoff Pietsch writes: Yes, the pacing in major championships seems troubling, BUT should World and Olympic Champions only be those who have the best kick? El G clearly is the fastest 1500 runner in the world right now. Isn't he a more deserving World Champion than a 3:31 or 3:32 guy who might sit on him for 3 1/2 laps, benefit from that draft, and outkick him in the stretch? N0. Who ever gets to the line first is the only one who deserves to win.
Re: t-and-f: scheduling US nationals
Netters Recently I have been appointed to Chair the Site Selection Committee for racewalking. As such I have to review bids and try to recruit potential hosts. In the walks, often it is the host that selects the date. I don't know if that happens with the TF com. but it might have something to do with it. I will say this I don't think the Walkers would oppose a later Championship. Our world cup is now in October so a later start wouldn't be bad at all. With the lack of a major Championship next year there is no reason to not hjold it later. Mike
Re: t-and-f: Webb maybe top 3 at USATF 1500... but not going to Edmonton.
Netters Kristopher Rolin writes: On Tue, 19 Jun 2001, Michael Contopoulos wrote: Anyone notice that they have let Ryan Hall into the 1500m as the last qualifier. Looks like they let the a guy in front of him in also with a 3:42.6 when the time was 3:41 something. Ritz's was only like .16 of the Q time not a full second...they seem to be bending all the rules to get the BIG THREE into the meet. Later, Rolin I noticed and I am not pleased. While many of you take the point that such things are good for the promotion of TF, a point I understand, I say again that the some animals are more equal then others approach is not the answer. Certainly the women's 10k standard was loosened by 10 seconds but that decision was made based on the numbers in the the field rather then any one individual. For the 1500 and the 5000 both fields were essentaily already full with with out loosening the standards. I might point out that on 3 separate occasions walkers who were very close to the standard in a event with very low numbers (12 or less) were denied entry into the U.S. Championships. There is no simple solution to this. Either you set a cap on numbers and fill them in in all events or no one with out a qualifier gets in. Should I remind you all of the whole debacle at the trials of the 1500 meter runner who was not allowed in (I can't remember his name but I recall he had won a medal at world indoors)- as a I recall there was strong sentiment that he not be allowed in.
Re: t-and-f: Loosening Standards (was: something a lot longer)
Netters Soon I will go back into hiding but int eh meantime Buck Jones writes: I have a training partner who didn't submit an entry with his 3:42.53. He has some mixed feelings about Hall et al. being in the meet. Bottom line -he's gotten over it as it really does nothing to make his life worse, Does nothing to harm him? A good race at nationals could =help a guy get some shoes or even give the motivation to train harder. It would be nice if USATF publisized what it's policy is going to be a little more clearly. Heck maybe they do, and I'm just an ignoramus. No Buck, they don't and you are not. Your friend is a perfect example of what I have been saying though apperently some on this list who have never qualified, been ranked or even close to this level of competiton seem to think they have a better idea about this is all about. But the I never ran 15:30 for 5k so I can't possibly know what it takes. We have a trials system to pick our teams - its called self selection by performance - it prevent by and large politicl apointments to teams. We have a system to get into the trials (Nationals too) which involve standards made up with the input of athletes coaches and adminstrators. Again, I am not against the idea of these guys running I think its great, I just think some - no - I know others are harmed by this and that there has to be a better way that is equatable to all. Mike
Re: FW: t-and-f: Webb and Hall at Nationals
Netters hi all. I have been off traveling and haven't had much time to write. Some of you know Michelle won the national 15k on the 3rd in a meet record time 1:09 something. It was a good race and the road trip in the van with the 3 kids a puppy and a cat was interesting. I won't go into the gory details but it is enough to say that a lot of thing happened that began with the letter P. We are settled in to Wisconsin now for a short time we had a a small hitch as the transmision went out but that is all fixed and I still might make it to Edmonton to watch. Eugene is out for me - that ankle is really *#@%!*(thanks all who wrote). Michelle however is ready to roll so to speak:) I'd like to point out to that some of you will notice that the women's 10k time standard has changed and that List member Todd Lane's wonderful wife is now qualified by virtue of her 34:00 at harry jerome. Michelle and I had the pleasure of having Turena stay with us in Cloudcroft for 4 weeks as she took a huge chance and tried Hi-lo training. She ran a 30 second season best and a 17 second pr to qualify for her first National. Turena is now the 5 th athlete in the last year to come and stay with us and I hope more do as well. It sure is a great way to get to know some great folks. Well of to bed for me. I can't train much but a micro-burst hit the in-laws home stead and let me tell you: old cotton woods are heavy and walking on roofs is not great for sore ankles but - what has to be done:) Mike
t-and-f: track 10k
Netters If anyone has info on women's track 10k in late May, (someplace nice) please let me know ASAP. Thanks Mike
t-and-f: featured athletes at Mt SAC,
netters Hey Scott Davis do me a favor will you please. Tell these guys which race had the only AR's set in it and was one of the best race out there. They wouldn't believe me if I swore on a Bible.
Re: t-and-f: Vault question
Netters Ed wrote: > > OK, having been largely away from vault coaching for five years and > having never coached women vaulters, I am always surprised when I hear > how short the poles are that these women are holding. It's not that > theoretically a 13' pole is wrong for clearing 13' - technically that > makes sense. But I can rarely remember ever seeing a high school boy > with a PR in the 12'6 to 14' range vaulting on anything less than 14' > foot pole and usually it's more like 14'6 or 15'. Ed, as you know I am coaching H.S. vaulters right now. I have one going 14-6, two more at 13, and two more at 12. All holding on 14 foot poles and the big guy on a 14-7. One other just got on a 14-6 long pole yesterday. I have been working with them all season to work on the "flyaway stage," something they never did before. And we have worked very hard on the inversion. Their idea before I got there was just get on the biggest pole they could and go for heights everyday. That seems to be the idea that most of the H.S. coaches have around here. That is not my idea though. I want my guys clearing 13 on 12-6 pole and I make them do it. They hate it but I make them do it anyways. Now, the reason I have them do this is because the first vaulters I ever talked to about vaulting were the women. In 98 I met Stacy for the first time at Milrose. That was before she was the super star she is now of course. I had no idea who she was and when she said she was a vaulter I began asking her questions about vaulting. Stacy, as many of you know, is just a great person and was more then happy to talk about vaulting. I had just started coaching vault that year at U.W. Eau Claire, so was trying to learn what ever I could. I began to watch the vaulting more closely trying to learn what ever I could. I figured since I was coaching 14 foot college men and 8 foot college women I would learn more by watching the women. Last year while watching the women's Olympic Trials I commented to a fellow next to me that I thought the women seemed to have better inversion and rise then the men. This fellow, whose name I can't recall, was the coach of someone out there. He agreed and said it had been commented among vault coaches that this was indeed was the case. I decided to put my mind to the case as to why this might be. Here is what I came up with. It may be that women have a lower center of gravity and many of the female vaulters are pretty short compared to the men. I think that the lower center allows the women to have a smoother break to inversion. The women certainly get closer to the pole then the men. I think it is the reverse of why most women don't walk up a ladder carrying a load the way men can. I think the second part is that the women are not as fast on the same size pole as a man so they have to have perfect take off position. Stacy said the one of the critical elements to her learning to vault was making sure that her trail leg - or the "keel leg" as I call it - was really extended so that her coach could read the letters on the bottom of her shoe. The slowest vaulter I have, is the one who jumps the highest. He also has a low center of gravity. His take off position is dead on and he has really taken to the idea of riding the pole up and allowing himself to become almost completely inverted before turning. Now the fastest kid I have practically kills himself (I mean that literally he makes my stomach turn so bad I go through a bottle of pink stuff each meet). He just rushes all the movement because he his so fast into the box. Back to Stacy now. I talked to her this year again at Milrose. I asked her thoughts on the question of the better inversion and rise that the women get. She agreed that she felt the lower center of gravity was a plus for her. She also thought that the men (elite men) relied to much on speed and big poles and sacrificed technique. In any case, I'm not an expert in the event by any means so I might be way off base and if anyone has any other ideas let me know. Especially if anyone as an idea of how I might be able to get one of my guys to stop sitting over the bar. He has perfect inversion on rock backs and straight pole drills but once he bends the pole he locks that bottom elbow out and then never unlocks it. He is often doing a straight knee drive over the bar!. I have him doing drills where all he is doing is driving that bottom elbow and kicking too - which seems to be helping but he is getting frustrated and those drills are making him tired. Any ideas are welcome. Happy Easter All. Michael Rohl (walker in exile coaching vaulters:)
t-and-f: supplements, diet and soil
Netters If I may I would like to comment on the issue of supplement, soil quality and diet. Two years ago I worked operating a spectrometer for one of the two largest soil and feed testing labs in the U.S. I ran an average of 350 feed sample test per day and some 1000+ soil samples. I helped in each aspect of the testing at one point or another and learned to read the results. On very rare occasions a sandy type soil would come in that lacked the necessary ingredient but that was the purpose of the test to tell the farmer what needed to be put in the soil to make it right. On the feed side, depending on what was being tested, (corn vs hay or alpha or sorghum) there were none that came back with lower than normal mineral or protein or even fat counts(we tested a full range.) The point is this: the idea that soils are difficient is a myth and is largely promoted by supplement companies. As is the idea that the plants/animal we eat are deficient. It is also a myth that "organic" foods are more nutritious then "non-organic foods." I will give some examples that I find humorous and Poignant. Organic salt is NaCl with fish poop in it. Honey is C6H12O6 with bee spit added. Oraganic vegetables are vegetable with extra protein in them (dead bugs) and extra fiber (cow poop.) Organic milk is milk that goes bad and or has mastitis bacteria in it. Organic vegetable cost more because the waste to insects/predation drive cost up due to waste. In addition to my experience working in the lab I also happen to have grown up on a farm in New York which is why i know a lot about poop:) Now as an athlete i have worked with the dietitians at the olympic Training centers and as a Fitness Consultant now for 12+ year I have worked with dietitians closely with clients and have had to "counsel" hundred of other on my own. The standard and what a believe correct advice is that one does get everything you need from a well balanced diet and that the non athlete will get everything they need from a crappy diet including too much fat and more importantly to many calories. That being said almost all the dietitian i worked with said that Iron and B-12 and E were the things athletes fall short of in their diets and that is because these two things are hard to absorb or they are low in the foods (but not because of soil or poor food usually but rather they are naturally rare) and they are used up in hard training. In hot wether potassium may be needed. But in any diet there is plenty of C, Ca, and protein - even with out eating beef. One might take a protein supplement out of convenience but not out of necessity. Personally I use B complex, glucosamine (really helps the joints) potassium, mg and E. I also take fish oil to help fight high Cholesterol. But I use the cheap generic stuff so as not to waste too much in my Urine. And to finish I certainly don't think taking supplements is cheating in any way and it may well be possible that in certain case and individual may need supplements but those, I think, are rare.
Re: t-and-f: DGs and his scriptures
Netters Jim wrote: DGS needs to leave the scriptures off his comments. I see no reason why Darrell or anyone else needs to change their qoutes. They are not obscene and to request such violates his first amendment rights. Besides, Darrell's chosen quote is a good one for this forum.
Re: t-and-f: Sanchez - New US Junior 5000 record?
Netters I just realized that I wrote that Sanchez and Ritz had a chance at Chapa's H.S. 10k record. And of course Sanchez is already out of H.S.. I was thinking Junior Record. Ritz, I would think, has a shot still. Sorry for my error.
RE: t-and-f: Sanchez - New US Junior 5000 record?
Netters Paul wrote: Isn't Chapa's HS 10,000 record 28:32? I seriously doubt anyone in high school will touch that for a very long time if ever. I would think that either Sanchez or Dathen would have a reasonable shot.
Re: t-and-f: EPO in TF?
Netters Jeremy wrote (I am) writing a research paper on EPO for a pharmacology class and am wondering if anyone on the list knows anyone that has used it or has used it themselves. Sure I use it all the time at some 1000+ dollars a shot sure! :)
t-and-f: 50k results
Netters A report on the selection of the first World Champs Team members Not only Clausen and Dunn are qualified. March 31, 2001For immediate release DUNN UPENDS CLAUSEN Philip Dunn's steady, if not spectacular performance, was more than enough to win his first ever National 50 Kilometer Racewalk Championship in a personal record time of 3 hours, 57 minutes, 18 seconds. The 29-year-old walked through the rain, Clausen, and then Seaman to conquer the 2 km loop at Bull Run Regional Park in Manassas, Virginia this morning. Susan Armenta won the first ever women's 50 km title, establishing a new national record of 4:49:42. "Philip's training has been going very well and very consistent since November," Coach Pena said. "I'm not surprised that he won today." Although Dunn was certainly expected to place in the top three, Pena was probably in the minority in that he wasn't surprised with the outcome. Curt Clausen had won three straight National 50 km's and was ranked fourth in the world in 1999. At the start, the race played out as expected with Clausen taking command almost from the gun. Tim Seaman, Dunn, and the Army's Al Heppner formed a trail pack that quickly pulled away from the rest of the field. Seaman and Dunn pulled away from Heppner just before the 14 km mark. Soon after, shades of 1999 returned, when Clausen pulled off twice to use the Port-a-John. This time, Clausen would pull off for the first of five pit stops before 20 km. Seaman and Dunn began to whittle away at Clausen's margin and overtook him after a second pit stop. Seaman made a move on Dunn early in the second half of the race and opened up a 20-second margin. Dunn held steady though and Seaman began to fade around 38 km at which point Dunn swept by him. Soon Seaman completely hit the wall and was forced to fitness walk the final 10 km. Meanwhile, Clausen fresh off his fifth and final pit stop, smelled blood and quickly reeled Seaman in. Unlike in 1999, when Clausen stormed back from a two-minute deficit to win, Clausen had too many pit stops and too large a deficit to overcome. Dunn cruised to the finish line and enjoyed a nine minute victory over Clausen (4:06:14) and nearly 17 minutes over Seaman (4:14:12), but Seaman, who was walking on empty for the last fifth of the race, battled valiantly just to make it to the tape. Meanwhile, Heppner (4:22:03), who had nearly lapped Theron Kissinger earlier in the race, was now fighting for his life to hold him off. A fast-charging Kissinger trimmed an 8 minute deficit to just over a minute, but simply ran out of time and had to settle for fifth in a time of 4:23:24. "My main goal was time-oriented and winning the race was just icing on the cake," said Dunn, who along with Clausen qualified for this year's World Championships in Edmonton. "Maybe I caught a break today, but it's all about giving your best effort and I did that today." Armenta was nearly a carbon-copy of Dunn, walking the steadiest to best the women's field. France's Kora Boufflert (5:07:02) took an early lead, but Armenta stayed relaxed and patient and was able to walk virtually unopposed for the majority of the race. The weather was less than ideal, although considerably better than last year's monsoon-like conditions at the Olympic Trials. This time it rained for the first half of the race, causing mud and water to saturate parts of the course. The rain stopped in the second half, but the temperature never approached 50 degrees. In a 50 km with tough conditions, usually the steadiest walkers win and that was certainly the case today. After the race, both Heppner and Clausen could be found in separate ambulances, both suffering from fatigue and mild hypothermia. Seaman wasn't exactly dancing around the course either, but an exuberant Dunn seem revitalized by his victory and was able to walk to his car under his own power, steady as ever. New Balance North Jersey's Sean Albert and Ecuador's Xavier Moreno are the heavy favorites for tomorrow's National Invitational 20 km, also at Bull Run Park. On Wednesday, Albert will join his 50 km teammates: Dunn, Clausen, Seaman, and Heppner in Bishop, CA for a training camp running from April 5-21. Men's National 50 km PlaceName Time Club Age Hometown 1 Philip Dunn 3:57:18 unattached 29Portland, OR 2 Curt Clausen 4:06:14 NYAC 33 Stevens Point, WI 3 Tim Seaman4:14:12 NYAC 28North Babylon, NY 4 Al Heppner 4:22:03 US Army 26Columbia, MD 5 Theron Kissinger 4:23:24 30 Albuquerque, NM 6 Dave McGovern 4:29:2035Mobile, AL 7 John Souchek 4:43:36 Shore AC35Little Silver, NJ 8 Dan O'Brien
Re: t-and-f: Marion shooting for WR in 300 at Mt. SAC?
Netters David Lesley wrote I think that Scott Davis's objection is to the uncorrected implication that Marion receives thousands of dollars in appearance money at Mt SAC. Monique Henderson cannot be expected to know that this is untrue, but Ken Stone should know better. Looking at Monique's qoute I did not get the idea that Mount Sac was paying Marion. And to be clear Monique's comments are correct. Marion is getting paid to run and a bonus for a WR just not by MSR. And i might add that they are pretty astute for a young girl. Why be cannon fodder when you can be a H.S. star.
t-and-f: Fullerton Runner Kicked off team for stripping
Netters Darrell wrote: There is a line, [snip] You are pissed at the coach because you feel as though he has imposed his beliefs on her. I say, that is life. While in part I agree with Darrell and certainly there are clear lines to be drawn in these situations. However, the real issue here is not wether someone believes what the girl's stripping is morally or legally allowable (I define the two separately). The issue is that the University and the coach found out because members of the University's base ball team attended the club to see the girl and they were not sanctioned. IF you are going to draw the line and say the girl's actions are immoral and intolerable then you HAVE to say that what the young men did was the same. That application was not done. It is the double standard here that is the problem.
Re: t-and-f: Distance Runners
Netters After reading Brian's post and this statement: The US was very competitive through the 1983 World Champs and Salazar had some great 10ks in there. But the wheels came off in 84 at the Olympics, and we've never recovered. Ok I can see the points being made here. It maybe that the my perception of the running boom is skewed but i do recognize that there are many factors beyond that.
t-and-f: Lindgren? (
Netters I really have enjoyed the run down on Lindgren as much as I did the discussion on Borsiov. I am not old enough to have seen much of running prior too about 1983. Infact the world champs was the first meet I really remember anything about. So any time I hear these old tales i enjoy them. Though it is isn't adding much to the discussion of the greatness of these runners, I thought I would relay and interesting tidbit. I was telling my coach, Mike Dewitt about the discussion here about Lindgren, who I recall he said he had met. He told me tonight that apparently at some point a racewalker taught Lindgren to walk - he thought it might have been martin Rudow. My coach said he was sure that in Lindgren's one and only racewalk he completed a mile in 7:00. For those who have tried the event (Ed Parrot, Teddy Mitchell and a few other) you can really appreciate that effort. This was about 1970 or so and a 7:00 then was really impressive. In any case thanks for the great reads. michael
Re: t-and-f: Distance runners
Netters Conway wrote: Question: With respect to the "running boom" did it perhaps make running too "recreational" in this country ??? And in so doing change the mindset of distance running/runners ?? That is exactly what I think. The "recreational mindset" permeates distance running. Even when planning training for myself or Michelle or even some of the other open and master athletes I coach I find myself falling into "joggers world" approaches. Thankfully I shake out of them. :)
Re: t-and-f: What's next?
Netters Louise ( the mean mutha:) wrote: yeah...but no one except the sprinters/hurdlers are getting BOOTED OUT OF THE COMPETITION..mean motha Join the world of the walks baby!
Re: t-and-f: Epilogue
Netters Louise wrote: however in the great council of the iaaf, who votes - (oh yeah, it's a democtatic process) NOT THE ATHLETES...the fat, lobster-eating old men. This is true and I absolutely agree with this point which was made by Darrell. The athletes have no control or real voice in the IAAF. We do with USATF but none beyond that and that includes the USOC and IOC.
t-and-f: Epilogue - pesecuted?
Netters Darrell wrote: Too many have nasty, personal attacks on sprint oriented listers... I beg to differ I read all of Conway's and Justin Clouder"s posts on sprints I see few if any personal attacks on them or their posts. I do, however, see you Darrell argue with them over things that I think at times are not that important. Too often the sprint topics are littered with attacks on the intelligence of the athletes... To be sure this has never happened though Brian did say Jon would seem smarter if he used spell check. But I have never saw a post where anyone said that a sprinter was unintelligent. Too often in sprint topics someone wants the thread to end, or be handled off list... Not nearly as often as a walks topic! Too many know too little about sprinting, but feel the need to argue with those that do... You know what Darrell maybe 2 people on this list know as much as I do about walking. But there are folks out there who have never done the event that have great things to say both pro and con, I don't know what I know about other events because of my position in the rankings. Why wouldn't a walker or a distance runner know about another event - I only coach two 14 foot H.S. vaulters. Are you suggesting you have to do something well in order to know about it - I've never cleared a height! Often Darrell you write as if someone is persecuting you or HSI or the sprints. I just don't see that any more than i see people hammering the walks. It seems to me you have a perception of persecution that just is not there. I believe many people on this list respect your in put when you are not writing about how people on the list are basing you (when they don't seem to be to me). I would like to hear your input more on training and racing then anything else of course I understand somethings couldn't be told with out killing us and all (trade secrets and all.) Anyways maybe if you view it in a different light it might not seem so bad. Oh watch it Darrell right behind you !
RE: t-and-f: New rules
Netters Brian wrote: It was a JOKE, Conway. Since I am apparently the only evil-incarnate on the list I was making a little joke. Having been known at one time or another as "THE RACEWALKER FROM HELL" I can assure you all that Brian is not evil incarnate. (No I am not making that up that is what I was called in college and many, I am sure can believe that.) Mike
Re: t-and-f: Unsportmanlike conduct LOL
Netters Darrell wrote: The good thing is that the sprinters know this, and it enables them to tolerate the ignorance that comes from the peanut gallery. Oh now isn't that a nice statement! :) Let them eat cake! "scratch a liberal and you know what you find under his skin? An aristocrat" Frank Herbert - Dune.
t-and-f: why track is un popular was New rules
Netters Jon wrote: "No! YOU HAVE NO CLUE!! THERE WILL NEVER BE A DAY WHEN FANS DON'T SHOW UP TO A TRACK MEET!!! PERIOD!! " I am sorry Jon you are not correct here. Fans not showing up is already happening(Milrose this year). BUT it is not because of false starts nor do I think that the rule should be changed. It has everything to do with the length of the meets. There is simply too much time between events at meets where there are FAT systems. The indoor nationals time table is ridiculous. People want to see something. Further I still believe that until people see you and Mo and anyone of us racing for some team and there is team scoring we will be relegated with having to promote meets with world record attempts and star status. We all know how world record attempts lead to head lines of failure and one mis behaving star who pouts after losing (not mentioning any names) is bad for the sport. Now Jon I know you to be a pretty good guy around the track, in fact you and Mo and your group at the trials were pretty cool to a group of walkers out there at the practice track at the trials (that was me an my coach and his son). I don't think you need to be "up" to make your points here on the list. I think most will respect your opinion and if they don't agree it is because many on this really do have a good idea of what is going on. Jon wrote: " You come in all forms. We can't get you to come out to track meets now, let alone pay." Now this I agree with. Is it just me or is the hard core tF fan the cheapset s.o.b. to walk the earth or what?
Re: t-and-f: what is in sponsorship was new rule
Netters Jon wrote: Now I've heard it all! Let's get this straight, John Capriotti is more concerned about other criteria more than a gold medal? LOL You may laugh if you want Jon but that is exactly what he said in meeting between USATF sponsors and athletes at the convention. Exactly: "don't come to me with a Gold Medal around your neck because I am going to be looking for more that that." Do you really believe that statement? I have no reason to believe that what he said was the truth. Listen, there are other criteria to maintain ones contract, but performance heads the list! Absolutely, in fact I said that and so have several other. Granted my equipment sponsorship is not on par with your contract which deals in real cash but the basic idea is the same. Do you think these meet promoters will let a 10.6 in his meet over a 9.9 sprinter No but that was not the situation we were talking about, either Do you think John Capriotti would contract a 10.4 sprinter over a young 9.9 sprinter, doubtful. If that guy was over 40 and his last name was Lewis then he might - its marketing. As far as I know no 40 year old has run 10.4 (Ken?) But when one does.. . We are walking billboards, but trust me when I say more kids want to wear the shoes of the guy that's running the fastest, not because he said so, but because they think the shoes did it, PLUS, it's the shoe they sell in the stores, online, and in eastbay. Right on Jon just like New Balance Racewalking shoes became more popular after I began wearing them. But there has to be some one to watch the meet in the first place. In my case the folks that buy the shoes are participating right along with me. But to say the fans are not important or that you would have a contract with out fans is out of touch. I am on your side about the false starts not being the demise of TF but to say your contracts are not dependent on fan attendance is not correct.
Re: t-and-f: FW: Shot put champions banned for life
Netters And this is our athlete of the year? give me a break.
Re: t-and-f: New rules
Netters Ed wrote PS: I cannot agree that all false starts are "unsportsmanlike conduct." Certainly there have been runners, past and present, who have used them in a suspicious manner, but there are ceratinly times when nervousness (yes, even in experienced runners) can be rhe cause. We must remember that, unlike almost every other sport I can think of, ours is the only one which has just one penalty: capital punishment. Say Ed didn'tyou slam walking for these very reason just a while back or am I mistaken on the that?
Re: t-and-f: Preparing better Distance Runners Sprinters
Netters Everything Steve wrote about is correct. If you coach, save it, that is good stuff. I have been doing that stuff for years and that is why my technique is the way it is.
Re: t-and-f: Creating Good Distance runners in the US
Netters Louis wrote: As you are suggesting that tough conditions produce better runners, how come we haven't seen a large number of successes from someplace like Texas? Because you have to be able to run first. And then survive the guys in the pick up trucks, then out run their gun range. :)
Re: t-and-f: IAAF threat to expel US federation
Netters I think we should remember that it would be absolutely unconstitunal for the IAAF to form a new governing body here in the U.S. and any athlete joining that new group would be subject to penalty under the law. No foreign government or entity may enforce law in our country with out the approval of congress. After Samranch's Debacle infront of the senate that is not likely to happen. In any case Rand's idea is a good one and now I have to go walk 24 miles at 9000 feet - ouch.
Re: t-and-f: `Real' cheats prosper claims drugs chief
Netters Ed wrote: The scientific basis for the ban should be irrelevant - it is a rule and we shouldn't have to justify rules. No Ed not here. The vigilant free society does need to justify its rules.
Re: t-and-f: water vs coke
Netters Ed wrote: That said, many ultrarunners (even some of the good ones) swear by defizzed coke during a race of 50 miles or longer. It seems clear that both the sugar and the caffeine could be helpful, Having done those 4 hour 50ks myself nothing works better then defizzed coke and polycose. Yup I add stuff to it. Been many a time when that coke has saved my butt. Though recently in preparation for the upcoming National 50k I tried using those frosting packs they give out with water and that went over pretty well too. Still like my coke though.
t-and-f: Measurements, indoors, XC, amateurism teams
Netters, Darrell wrote in reference to the proposition that one reason track is not popular in the U.S. is because of the use of the metric system in field events: "How many people have to tell you that it is not true before you get the point?" Darrell is right. Using the metric system for field events is not a major reason why track is not more popular in the U.S. But, Gary is right that the average fan in the U.S. should get to hear English measurements. It is the way we do it here. Don't worry about conversions at all just give both the way it always done. It won't make track and field one iota difference in popularity using one or the other because that is simply not the problem. Darrell the wrote: "Gary called the Brit screwed up because he uses multiple measurements, but you are advocating field events in imperial distance, and have no problem have metrics on the track." He has you there Gary. Darrell further wrote: "The amateur mentality that dominates the minds of track is killing track. When people start to see this as a professional entity, a lot of things will change for the better. We can get away from thinking the athletes should be thankful they are on the track,and start understanding that they have earned every thing they get." Now this is getting closer to the truth though I sincerely believe that is has to be taken even further. In order for Americans to watch track there must be meaningful TEAM competition. I have mentioned this before but until we have head lines like "Bob Kennedy leads the Indiana Invaders against John Godina and the L.A. Lions." We are going to be 5th page news. Team competition would solve almost every problem we have in TF today and people would be interested. My father does not care about Milrose but give him a local team like the Albany Patroon's of the CBA and he'll go watch. I'd like to hear some other comments on team/league competition. I have put a great deal of thought into it and would like to share those ideas. Good Training Michael Rohl
t-and-f: here's a wild thought...
netters Gary asked: Regardless of where he runs it, is Ritz a serious threat to the Linddgren 13:44.0? I think so. His 14:40 or what ever it was at the University of Wisconsin Parkside course indicates that he would be close. Typically that course is a minute off of a track times and that day was even slower. His 8:44 may not be a real indication of what he can do in that race. Being that isn't was fairly early in the indoor season. Either way, my belief is that he should run the Junior's as he intends too and if all is well he can run a 5k at Stanford in May. Besides he still has World juniors where he could do it which are along way off right?
Re: t-and-f: Dragila series
Netters A note from a novice vault coach on Stacy's jumps. As she came in on the first miss she was under to far/over her step. As she lined up i saw her stop and really get the crowd pumped up. As she did this i said to myself "she is going to come down this too fast ans isn't focused on what she is doing." And she missed. On the second miss she did almost the same thing, really taking the time to pump up the crowd. On the third attempt she was less crowd pumping and more focused. Her WR jump was a near perfect. As Gary said her ability to refocus and come up big is now and will be legendary.
Re: t-and-f: Millrose Games Info
Walt And did that the fact that 3 more Olympians will be competing at 7:25pm - in the middle of the elite portion, in the Susan B. Rudin Mile Walk? Or did that just get forgotten?
t-and-f: Milrose Walk
Netters Sorry just One olympian here: Curt Clausen New York A.C. Walk two tim Olympian - past winner Sean Albert New Jersey Striders Walk Michael Rohl New Balance Walk Al Heffner U.S. Army Walk Gregory Dawson Walk USA Walk Robert Williams Farmingdale State University Walk Ben Shorey Ellsworth High School Walk
Re: t-and-f: Alan Webb misses 1000m record by 0.28
Netters Thanks John Dye for this Webb's performance fits in behind the record of 2:23.85c (George Kersh MS 1987) and 2:242.1d (Miles Irish NY 1983). Interesting we were just talking about the top guys in H.S. being out performed later by other athletes. In that thread i talked about Miles Irish and here he comes up again. I remember seeing him set that 1000m mark and then late that season he set the then National Mark at 1:20.7 for 600m on a 10 lap to the mile tack by the way.. Later he went to the indoor State meet in the 600 and 3200. he was dodging Mike Starr. Miles won the 600 then was (I think here) 3rd in the 3200 behind Charles Marsella for sure. The guy who won the 1000 that year - Tom Day of Bishop Gibbons in 2:30. something, a state meet record at the time. Last time I heard from Day he was in Houston Tx were he was in school - why he called me in the middle of a hurricane I'll never know :)
t-and-f: small world
Netters Here is an interesting thing. Gary wrote: > Mike I was at that NY state meet competing int he > 1600m the year Irish pulled that double. Folks this is another example of a small world. I have met Gary at USATF Nationals and exchanged e-mails many of times but did either of us know that we were both at that meet at Cornell University in 1983? Nope. At least not on my part. That year I won the unseeded section of the 1600 walk - beating 3-4 guys in the fast section, placing 10th over all. I asked him the night before why such an odd double, and he simply > said "why not?". Typical Miles :) >He was awesome to watch, and it > seems in the duece he was falling off the pace late, > but his incredible speed brought him close at the > finish. This is my memory of that race too but i was so im pressed by Marsala's tuffnes more than anything. And my apologies for miss- spelling those names before and thanks to Keith Whitman and the Commish for correcting me.
t-and-f: Coaching 101 and a Neiamiah story
Netters, Slow night here and I thought some might like these bits. Working with my vaulters this week. Had them doing start-press-curls. I have all 8 of them lined up and I am carefully watching for a good straight arm over the ear. I am going down the line and I see Chris, a senior, with bent arm. "Chris straighten up that arm," I say as I walk by. Chris who I have found to be very coachable makes an effort. But still that arm is bent. "Chris try getting under further you are not even close." Chris trys again, so far under this time his back is arching and he gets thrown back. "Something isn't right I say." Chris shakes his head. "Try again," I say. Chris goes again...then I remember... Chris is left handed! Dohh! Call me Homer. We all had a good laugh on that. Now for Skeets When I started coaching in 1990 my first job was at Racine Lutheran H.S. The A.D. there asked if I thought I needed to go to a clinic ora anything. Yes, I said where ever and as many as we can. So off the Coaches Association Clinic I went in Milwaukee Wisconsin. I chose to go to the shot/discus, vertical jumps and hurdles. The three areas i felt the weakest in. John McConnell of Arkansas did the jumps. Very good to listen too. His basic advice was make them fast and jump high:). Renaldo was the hurdles instructor. (I can say I that Skeets taught me how to hurdle.) Renaldo was great at the clinic giving my self and the coaches there great advice and instruction. One of the coaches asked if there was anyway to make those 3 steps any faster. Renaldo kind of hesitated, then proceeded with this golden bit but commented that he was reluctant to share it but would anyway. Seems that Skeet's college coach was getting frustrated with his "loping" long 3 steeps and was trying to get Skeets to be quicker between hurdles. After all the coach knew, as we do, that Skeets could be really fast. Skeets said they tried everything. Close the hurdles up, take one out all the tricks. Still no change. Then one day Renaldo said his coach came to practice with a determined look on his face. "Today we are going to do hills. Get some hurdles." Renaldo said at the time he thought maybe the coach was going nuts. Hurdling up hill? So Renaldo laid them out. That's when his coached said "turn them around!" Renaldo said at that point he knew his coach had lost it. But down his is what coach said, so down hill Renaldo went. He said he bailed the first time down. The second time down he got over one but was on hurdle two in two steps and bailed. He managed the third time down to only break the second hurdle and not himself. Eventually after several weeks he was able to do 5 or six faster then the 60 record by a second or more. Sometime later is when he broke 13. The coaches were all agape. All Renaldo said was: "Please don't try this with you athletes." Enjoy track, my opening race of the 2001 season is less then 1 week away. yikes!
t-and-f: more on Miles and high school shaningans
Netters Gary relayed that Miles Irish's quip on why he did the 600 and the 3200 in the sam meet was "why not." There is more to it than that. First, Miles had lost at the milrose mile to Stahr and he wanted to win a state title but he was unsure of his ability at two mile. You see he had been stung earlier that year by a guy named Peter Howe of Columbia H.S in cross country at the Sectionals. Howe didn't like Miles at all and was jealous of the attention and set the whole year on beating Miles at that one race. I never thought much of this approach myself but I never thought much of Peter or his coach either. (His coach was a racewalk bigot.) At the qualifying meet on a lark Miles ran that 1:20.7. The first NR I ever saw. He felt he would be more "historical" doing something no one else ever did. I liked Miles because he was smart but he was odd too:) But here is some more H.S. shenanigans. That state meet was my first an only state meet. I was disqualified in the qualifier meet outdoors. Not for racewalking violation mind you but rather because a competitor had tripped on an united shoe lace (mine). AN over zealous official was sure I had nocked the guy down but that's another story. So back to the indoor meet 83 in Cornell. As I said it was my first state. A couple of guys from the big "A" schools decided I needed to be "initiated" on the bus ride up. Now, I took my athletics as seriously then as I do now. I don't particularly like to be messed with physically. I had had my fill of that in Junior high. It was one reason I didn't stop lifting weights until I could bench 250. Among those guys was Howe and the 1000m champ Day. Day, I knew well and was a caught a bit off guard when he came back with Howe and a couple of other guys to the back of the Grey Hound bus we were in. They had decided that I, should be taped up and placed in the bathroom for the rest of the 4 hour ride. They told me what they were going to do. My reply was a smile and polite "no, you won't." At this point two of them grabbed my wrist and had the tape out. Well as one list member pointed out I tend to be built more like a linebacker then a distance runner and breaking the tape was easy to do but in the mean time two more managed to grab my feet.. Once again i split the tape. Stating rather determinedly that I was not going into the toilet and if they didn't leave off someone would get hurt. Well they were about as stupid as they were determined and with the help of 400Im guy managed to get ahold of me again. By now a considerable ruckus was going on, but the coaches, as they are wont to do, of course noticed nothing. After several minutes of wrestling around them getting one arm and me breaking another limb free I decided to end the freakus then and there. While, I tried not to hurt any of my state "teammate" had anyone know how hard I hit Day in the ribs and how long he laid gasping for air after they would never have thought he could have run the next day let alone win. Two other received similar and Howe - the instigator of the whole thing ended up flat on his belly with my foot in his back. THAT is when his coached noticed there was a commotion and started back. Of course boys being boys when asked nothing had occurred. During the "match I ended up losing my seat and setting in the very back with a Muslim high jumper from Albany high. He turned to me and politely asked my name ( he hadn't participated it the attempted hazing) i told him and he said quietly "so what is your event?" "I'm a walker," I replied. "Good," he said, "now i know not to mess with any f^**() racwalkers!"
t-and-f: relay third leg man
Netters Darrell wrote: > International > JD > Maurice > Ato > Carl Though it would be an All-American Relay I think that if I were going to put anyone on the third leg of a relay it would be michael johnson. I'd try to have him get the baton as early as possible and hold it as late as safety would Allow.
t-and-f: THE BOARDS!
Netters jim observed: To those who think RWing is contrived on a 400 oval or the roads, watch it on a steeply banked 11-lap try like MSG's. Gravity seems to be winning over momentum. Indeed Jim excellent observation. Milrose is a special event for walkers as it is for many other events. But the steep banks that help the 400 guy don't help us at all. In fact it is among the most difficult athletic challenges i have to face. Besides the bank which I barely generate enough momentum to stay up on, i also face the slipryness of the dusty wood surface. Walkers wear flats which on the old wood surface was akin to ice skating. A couple of walkers have tried to wear pin spikes on occasion with limited success. Ask Allen he still complains about being spiked. Untop of these obstacles Milrose comes right in the middle of preparation for the National 50k. How many marathoners would like to have to run an all out mile right in the middle of a marathon build up? Since I can't just drop my millage I add strides on a daily basis to get used to the feel of the speed but I can't do "specific" mile training. I add 4*200 in 44-43 seconds after my hard workouts and 8*100 after the ez days in 21-18 seconds. Since just about everyone does it this way no one gets an advantage. I do some other things to help too. Some things that hurdlers, shot putters and some distance runners would find helpful. First I work on a balance board or rocker board. I do one leg squats with out letting the board move at all. I also use a baps board. And I use a trampoline and heavy ball. I stand on one leg and throw the heavy ball at another trampoline. I even bounce on one leg throwing and catching the ball with each hand. Also during the 6 weeks before Milrose I change my weight to lifting for strength. I try to get my squat up to 250 and my bench to 185 to 200. I make sure I am stretched as best i can be. Its a serious meet and the one thing I care about is that i look good infront of 10,000 people. Who BTW are screaming their collective brains out for who ever is racing on the track regardless of event.
t-and-f: RK's Season
Netters below is RK's season record I think I had seen two other races not listed here but what you have is 11 wins 12 losses over 5, 10, 20 and 50k. his only loss was to two russians at 10k one of whom was last years world champ the other was in the top 5 at the games. It is especially note worthy that RK was considered a 50k specialist before this year. In any case it's a great year for any athlete. Remember too that no one ever thought anyone would win the 2050 in one Olympics. On like MJ's double which required considerable changes to the schedule RK did his on the normal schedule. It was akin to Zatopek's feet. Feb 13 POL Ch. Spala 5000m 1st 19:00.53 Feb 19 FRA Ch. Liévin 5000m 1st 18:53.71 Mar 5 Ponte de Sôr 50km 1st 3:41:50 May 7 Villeneuve d'Ascq 5000m 1st 19:16.30 Jun 3 Kraków 10km 3rd 38:48 (1 Ilya Markov 38:42, 2 Vladimir Andreyev 38:47) Jun 10 Spala 5000m 1st 18:48.92 Jul 17 Eur Cup Eisenhüttenstadt 20km 1st 18:18.29 Jun 24 Warsaw 5000m 1st 19:02.88 Jul 9 Hildesheim 20km 1st 1:18:22 Aug 5 POL Ch Kraków 20km 1st 1:20:52 Sep 22 OG Sydney 20km 1st 1:18:59 Sep 29 OGSydney 50km 1st 3:42:22
Re: t-and-f: RK's Season
Netters Ryan, normally witty, and informed came up with this one liner: So, I say do the apples to apples thing, in which case there are lots of 18-19 minute 5k folks (men and women) who are not world ranked, so the RK fella should be thankful. Ryan, by the light, I hope you are joking because this has to be the second most stupid thing I have ever seen written about the walks. Right behind that horse's but's, P.N. from New Zealand who thought it would be ok to try to relegate what he doesn't like to an Island. On the upside I think Conway's essay on the founding fathers of the rankings was the best so far in the discussion. I know GH said he wasn't going to write any more about this but I would like to see a response to that because it seems that Conway has crystallized the point of the discussion at the same time pinning down the defenders of the rankings. The horse isn't dead yet I'd like to see an expansion from what Conway wrote.
t-and-f: Re: Not Kidding, and more contrived event ideas...
Ryan, Et tu Brutus?
RE: t-and-f: rankings
Netters Brian wrote: So, unless I did not remember the ranking criteria correctly ... they align exactly with the priorities YOU have as an athlete ... and the ones that most world class athletes probably have. Exactly Brian. I knew what the criteria were when I wrote that. I was tring to show why they work except that unlike me, many athletes at the higher level avoid head to head putting the rankers into a problem situation. I think Conway's points are still the best ones. The system can work even for differences accounted for as ED Parrot pointed out. If they are applied consistently. Which I for one think can be done and has not been.
Re: t-and-f: Racewalking MumboJumbo
Netters Kurt wrote: But wait a minute, maybe we could revise our thinking and consider the hurdles a fundamentally DIFFERENT EVENT from the sprints and not worry about direct comparisons. And come to think of it, if we really wanted an intellectual challenge, we could do that with the walks too; we could consider them as events unto themselves rather than slow versions of the running races. Nah...better not - that would be thinking too far outside the box. It's easier just to mock these other events - the same way Joe Sixpack mocks the entire sport of track and field. It's always cool to mock what you have no appreciation for. oh but for those few voices of reason the world would be a lonely place at best.
Re: t-and-f: how far the women's vault has come
Netters Gary wrote: Nonetheless, the men's vault will be the curtain lifter, starting off the evening, with the women's event slated for the prime time window. yes indeed and of all things the walk goes off at 7:25 pm - prime time while not gold and silver medalist it will feature at least 6 of the top 8 performers from TF news in the U.S. now maybe that fellow who never saw a walk in a major meet will take a look. Who knows maybe even some of those fellows who GH says never saw a walk before will take the time. Nah that would be too easy.
Re: t-and-f: Racewalking MumboJumbo
netters Ed Prytherch wrote: But if you racewalk as fast as you can, you turn into a runner. This is not true at all but then I suppose when dealing with the same intellectual and emotional mind sets that produced such lovely concepts as racism, bigotry, anti semitism, sexual discrimination, religious persecution and any number genocides in history then I suppose facts don't really matter. And I suppose someone will say its not the same at all.
t-and-f: Tom jordan's e-mail
Netters Sorry to bother the whole list but does anyone have Tom's email or if Tom is still on could you contact me. Thanks.
RE: t-and-f: 400H
Netters Brian wrote: There are bigger development issues. Yes. like for instance having the walk in H.S. and College. before any naysayers jump up and down, remember I learned to walk in H.S. in New York. Thanks in part to people like Louise and other rational people. I was a respected and valuable member of my team participating in the 2 mile relay and sometimes another event in addition to the mile walk. Those who have never had a chance to coach a walker are missing out on something.
Re: t-and-f: A narrow view for some (looong)
Netters I hope many of you have noted my general lack of comment on the rankings - except one. Really I just didn't feel like arguing over it - others, and non walkers I might add, have said plenty, but I would like to correct one comment that Ed Parrot made and I think it might apply to some comments that Gary might have made. Some of the above logic isn't comparing apples to apples. The number of times that an athlete can compete in a high level 20K or especially 50K walk is significantly less than in the 100m. Based on the number of opportunities, I'd say that RK's stat of beating 19 of the other top ten is equal or superior to Greene's 38 and MJ's 21. I believe and I am sure that many other non walkers would agree that Ed's assertion here is correct. But you are correct that RK did not have the kind of SEASON that the others did. He simply performed well in one meet - the biggest one. This is the part I have to correct. Actually though they were not all Olympic distance RK had an incredible season. First in May he won the Europeans Cup 20k. Considered by many an even tougher event then the Olympics because each European country can send 5 athletes. I don't have all the stats with me here I'll get them from a friend, but here are some notes I can remember. After winning the E.C. in 1:18 and seconds he came back to win another 20k in 1:18 then came back about 3 weeks later walking, yes another 1:18. In May he might have won the vote on those performances alone. But add to that he walked the a 3:41 50k just a few weeks before his Euro win. In all he won 4 20k's and then 2 50k's. But in addition he won,(as i recall) 2-3 really fast 10k's in the low 38 minute range and he won another 3 5ks in under 18:30 losing won 5k to a russian. In all he won something like 13 of 14 races and his only loss coming at a 5k. Again it will take a day to get everything I need but those are what I can recall now. The general feeling about RK"s season was that it was one that will go unmatched by anyone for along time. In tF there are 2 events that are above the rest in difficult for consistency. The walks and the marathon. That being said Alekna's season was great too, but I think if you measure on percent of world record that RK was closer to WR status more consistency. I definitely have a problem with MJ ahead of RK. RK's double Gold was the equal to MJ's. Mo being ahead maybe maybe not. I say yes if he had set a WR but Mo had losses RK didn't. In the end it doesn't matter, I suppose. I don't think there isn't a list member who could come out and say that what RK did was incredible and admirable and i hope that some who never thought of the event before look at with a different perspective than they did before. On another note I heard I was 5th in the U.S. ranking at 20k. If true that's my highest ever ranking. And for the record that seems about right to me.
Re: t-and-f: 400H
Netters Louise wrote: - we ran the 400h while the boys of the state were doing the 300mh.. Louise, not to get on your case to much but I distinctly remember running the 400h as a freshman at Averill Park H.S. , Averill park N.Y. in 1980. Of course the next year I learned to walk but that is a different story.
Re: t-and-f: The storm by the numbers
netters Allen wrote" Don't even try to top me Mr. Rohl because I'm on one now. Why would I try Allen? You can only educate the ignorant so much. Then you must let them rot in their own dung and live with the consequences of their own choices.
Re: t-and-f: Re: Clubs
Netters Wayne wrote: Why are these types of clubs and athletes so rare now? One reason for the paucity of clubs may be ironically, the Amateur Sports Act of 1978. I can see how this had an effect on clubs. But I am wondering how much the road racing boom hurt the club track field program. Looking at the time period that Wayne talked about (1971-1991) seems to have coincided with the running boom. Also though Brian wrote this several days ago I have to disagree with his statement that an athlete who hasn't made his mark by college then he never will. It may be more true in the sprints but not in distances or walks you never know who is going to pop up in their 30's. Look at Christine Clark who not only won the trials but then silenced any doubters with another PR at the Games. I didn't start really being able to hold my own until I was 30 + nor did my coach. I rattle off dozens of athletes like that.
Re: t-and-f: Clubs
Netters Mike Platt wrote: Wrong! Three times. 1) Clubs are very existent and are all over the country. 2) And the club championships were instituted many years before this year. 3) The club system or lack thereof is not THE problem with TF. Mike would you then please enlighten me as to what clubs there are and why the lack of a support system of 22-32 sub elite athletes and elite athletes who don't go to college is not a problem? I don't count groups such as shoe company teams and HSI as "clubs" (no offence Darrell.) To my knowledge NYAC still has athletes, the Indiana Invaders too. And GBTC though NYAC doesn't provide coaching per say and involves many sports. And to be clear, a club system would provide for travel, coaching and a facility. Thanks
Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement
Netters Dan wrote: Somehow I don't think 4:10 milers belong in the same conversation as 45 second 400 runners. One could argue that any 4:10 type belongs among the second tier group -- not the group the original question was inquiring about. True Dan. I don't disagree at all. But thes were the top 3 high school milers in 83. And Starr was a 4:03 miler touted to be the next great American miler. The point is they were the best and second teir group was did better later.
RE: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement
Netter Brian wrote: Paul Thomas said that College was over before he realized he had "pissed away" (his words) a lot of good years. I know Paul Tomas too. I met him when I worked at PR Bar. He said the same thing to me out at a bar:). Thing about Paul is that while a great runner he is one of those rare individuals who was great at something else - cycling! Which is why he went on to become a world Duathalon Champion. He told me he made All-American in his last year running 13:59. He was a big guy so ultimately I think he would have been limited in running but in Duathalon, that's a different story.
Re: t-and-f: DGS vs RNORTHAM
Netters Mike F. wrote: I'm thinkin that this battle is a mere skirmish...child's play in comparison to last year's Rohl vs Fanelli! Well at least we were fairly evenly matched!
t-and-f: walk talk
Netters A few days ago someone asked (Conway?) for reports on track events. So here is a report on the walks for the U.S. this year. First, the majority of the walkers are back at the ARCO Center and my friend Ray Kules is now the USATF Coach there. Enrique Penna is contracted through the next 4 years to coach the walker there. Tim Seaman, the Olympic Trials winner is back in San Diego with his new wife, he just go married here in December. Curt Clausen,who excited everyone with his 4th place finish at the worlds in 99 seems to have recovered from the knee surgery that hampered his efforts in Sydney. As well both 50k Olympians Andrew Herman and Phillip Dunn are back in residence. They will be joined by Sean Albert (national 10k champion who was dqed at the trials in front of me) and John Nunn who was 6th at the trial at the age of 22! As well Al Heppner, the young man who collapsed in that horrible 50k Olympic Trials, of hypothermia, while in 3rd place is back, now part of the Army WC Program. Kevin Eastler who was 2nd at the trials and was at ARCO as part of the Air Force's elite program is now back on active duty somewhere in Wyoming. If he told me where he would have had to kill me :). he is however maintaining a high intensity program still and intend to compete. Dave Mcgovern, 8th at the trials is concentrating on training for 50k and Jonathan Mathews, 9th at the trials maybe in semi-retirement. For myself I started back December 3rd and am making good progress. Not starting the year off with a back injury sure helps a great deal. I will do Milrose and the las Vegas half marathon as well as the Indoor Champs and the 50k - I'll send my schedule later. Roumor is that everyone of these guys is going to race Milrose, Indoors and the National 50k which means quite competitive fields. On the women's side Michelle is of course trying to run and walk so if anyone is going to challenge her this will be the year to do it. Joanne Dow should be back strong again and I doubt we will hear from Chen Yue Ling this year. The competition may have been stiffer then she anticipated. Deb Lawrence and Sara Stevenson should make impacts as well this year. At stake this year is the World Champs Team and the Pan AM Cup Team which is headed to Lima, Peru. There is also the Good Will Games. Should be interesting.
t-and-f: littluns' in track was -Why the lack of improvement
Netters Bruce wrote: From this perspective, the world championships for youth is a bad idea. As is a National Championship for little kidds as in ages 10 and under. One of the many misguided things the USATF Youth Committee tried to do was add a National level to sub bantams. Not only should these kids not be put in that situation I believe as a father and a coach that no child younger then H.S. age be involved in a "National Championship." Plenty of competition and fun right at home.
Re: t-and-f: Why the lack of improvement
Netters Dan asked: Is this evident in any group other than male sprinters? yes Distance runners. In 83 there was Miles Irish, Mike Starr and John Carrolitti all sub 4:10 milers in H.S. Of the group the only one to make to the 88 and 92 trials was Charles Marsella a guy who was second to all those guys all te time. I knew Irish pretty well and had met Starr. Marsella was not as talented but he was tuff. There are other examples as well. I wonder what ever happened to Irish the guy ran 4;06 (I think) behind Starr, Went to George Town and i never heard from him again,
Re: t-and-f: Coaching selections.
Netters S.devereaux wrote: Why even have national team coaches other than to choose who runs on the relays? It's not like any athletes other than their own are going to be itching to get advice from them. Because some events need to have a coach on hand or because some athletes coaches can't be there. Let me give you two examples. One any jumps. If an athlete in any one of the jumps is having step problems then having a competent coach there when theirs can't be is important. Another is the walks especially the 50k. You don't do a 50k without a pit crew. Unfortunately some coaching staffs have not been aware of their obligation and duty to be up on time let alone there at all. This is one reason there always seems to be a problem with the coaches and the walkers. Most of the coaches are essentially unaware of what needs to be done because they have never coached a 4 hour event. Though several i knew have done an outstanding job. John Babington for one was a great help to Michelle and to her family. This year Judy (can't remember her last name) did well too. But Michelle couldn't tell you who the head coach was on any team mostly because she felt that if you were not a potential medalist you were ignored and many have felt that way. In any case there is work that has to be done and I tell you honestly that a guy like Kelly Sullivan will bust his butt for the people he is assigned too. I knew him at Auburn while i was coaching at West Georgia. There are four things I look at when i evaluate a program. One, injury rate. Two, the athletes improvement from high school. Three, consistency from year to year on athletes performance (which isn't necessarily winning) and four, do they run well at the right time. Kelly's program was good in all four areas - and not all schools are.
RE: t-and-f: walkers 10k times
Netters brian wrote: The guy in question is Werner Schildhauer, who developed at the same time as Hansorg Kunze. Both were 5k/10k guys and I recall something about him (Schildhauer) being a former racewalker. Brian thanks for that great info on Werner what a solid track career he had - I had no idea. I think you are right that he was junior walker, i will check some sources I have here. Again thanks.
t-and-f: a little info on lactate analyzers
Netters Just came across this. Incase anyone might be interested the prices are coming way down on these things. http://www.lactate.com/prices.html
Re: t-and-f: PS
Netters John Molavar, whom I have come to expect more of. asked Which is easier? a) buying illegal drugs b) finding in person, ANYONE involved in Greco-Roman wrestling? B me. I participated in a Greco-Roman match in high school. In fact, the one thing that I and the before mentioned illustrious crowd of big man, I spoke of, had in was that we had all at some point wrestled competitively. Don't give me that crap about network spin or those numbers you crunched. Athletic performances such as Rulon's have their own intrinsic worth which is undeniable. In all Olympics there are many of the same type of performance in all areas. As one list member said it is about R E S P E C T.
Re: t-and-f: Coaching selections.
Netters In response to Ed's...thoughts I would like to point out a few things: Women: JJ Clark - Head Coach Besides being a University coach himself he happened to have coached 3 Olympians. I would think he is quite credible. Chandra Cheeseborough - Asst. coach Chandra is and experienced international athlete, I don't know if she currently coaching but her experience will be useful. Ramona Pagel - Asst. Coach Again, an Olympian there for the younger athletes and she is a coaching though I can't remember where. She is incredibly competent and has been on enough trips gone bad to know what not to do and what to take care of. John Rembao - Asst. Coach Don't know. Maryanne Torrellas - Head Manager Don't even question Maryanne's ability. Kim Duyst - Asst. Mgr. Don't know. Men: Orin Richburg - Head Coach Ron Allice - Asst. coach Ken Bantum - Asst. Coach Ken Brauman - Asst. coach Kelly Sullivan - Asst. Coach James Williams - Head Mgr. Scott Davis - Asst. Mgr. Of these i only know Kelly Sullivan who is as fine a coach as you would want - and isn't that Scott Davis of Mount Sac fame - don't go there either, Eddie. Some one else can speak for the others.
t-and-f: Rulon Gardner
Netters DGS wrote The point is valid and just because you read about it and heard about it, does not mean it was international news. Darrell, it was huge news around the world. It was utterly incredible. I watched on close circuit TV in the village with Lance Deal, the two Adam Shot putters, big John Godina, Michelle, Connie Price Smith, her coach, and Passion Richards. Only poor little Passion wasn't to interested. All agreed it was the single greatest match/competition we saw. And it's ok that you might have missed it, you were busy. But trust me brother it was awesome to watch.
Re: t-and-f: interesting article on changes in the walks
Netters, P. N. Heidenstrom writes: Q1 - undoubtedly. At the Sydney Olympics at least the first 18 finishers in the 50k were breaking contact at every stride coming into the stadium. This is not true. That was not apparent to the judges, but why not is puzzling: loss of contact is caused by a characteristic floating gait which is hard to mistake Again you are wrong. The "cause" of an athlete to have a "float" phase is the premature firing of the calf muscles. The athletes pushes off to early in the gate cycle generating more force up then forward. This loss of contact is often very visible as it it is the oscillation of the athlete up and down which must last longer then 5 milliseconds. However, what many of the best walkers have is a forward loss of contact. This is generated from the extremely powerful forward push. Because the timing is so perfect the resulting up-down oscillation can last less then 3 milliseconds. The relative difference between 3 and 5 milliseconds can be as much as .25 inches (which you wouldn't be able to see with 20/20 vision from 10 feet away anyways) to up to 1.5 inches which could be seen. To add to that because the athletes are doing this with such excellent timing and it occurs at such a high rate of speed one cannot see that for a brief moment that both legs and the center of mass are traveling forward. which was not often seen until the Mexicans (walkers or coaches or whoever) developed the technique in the late sixties, propelling that nation from nowhere to a position of pre-eminence among pedestrians. Actually the modern Mexican Technique came much later after or during the time of Bautista who was regarded as an outstandingingly legal walker - the 1980 Olympic debacle aside. It was in the days of Canto and Gonzalases that what you are talking about was perfected and was actually perfected by the East Germans. Q2 - no. Disqualifying walkers for humanly invisible loss of contact would not change the nature of the event. It would restore the nature of the event. I am not exactly sure what you mean by "nature" of the event here. But disqualifying a walker for something that the human eye can not see would change the event and it would not be the same as years ago. For one thing by not using humans you would use cameras and that would change the nature of the event. Among judges the saying used to be "when in doubt throw them out" which often resulted in unfair disqualifications. I happen to be just old enough to remember judges with this attitude. What I have seen is judges giving loss of contact calls to athletes who on tape are in absolute contact. But again this is much like the ball/strike analogy. The "human eye" dispensation did not appear in the IAAF (snip) The reason for this change - which was a FUNDAMENTAL one - was admitted during a long discussion by the late Palle Lassen, long-time chairman of the IAAF Walking Committee. Quite simply, the athletes had "got away" and now could not be brought back without dq'ing them all and wiping out every standing record. Again you are wrong here. While I don't disagree that your conversation happened the FUNDAMENTAL reason for adding the "to the human eye" rule was a public relations issue. It was a way to stop those few media types and general naysayers from pointing to a picture of a walker with a quarter inch of air and saying "see he is cheating." So, he said, the rules should be changed to allow walkers to run, as long as they kept their legs straight! This assertion too, is incorrect. Loss of contact does not equal running. In fact to be running the knees never straiten and contact can be maintained (jogging some would call it) however I maintain and many would agree that to run you must land with a bent knee and have a flight phase. The chosen solution was like changing the rules to allow doping so long as it was done out of sight of the officials. These two things are not even in the same class. One is clearly cheating (doping) and the other is no more cheating then fouling in the long jump. Further I want to point out that Wayne's analysis is an excellent one of the difference of times in contact vs loss of contact. However, it is important to realize that Wayne's calcuations are based on the assumption that an atlete is losing contact with every single step. So yes if that were the case then the time diference would be huge. But, that is not happening. In a rewiew of events one bimecanical anylises showed that atletes lost contact at 6:20 per mile (about 1:19 pace) only 3-10% of the time. I have film of me at the Milrose games walking 6:09 for the mile and at times at 5:40 per mile pace with absoulte contact - I recieved 4 cautions in that race. In fact I have inpractice walked 100m in 17 seconds with absolute contact -4:36 per mile! So after all this to answer Pat's legitimate question - yes tecnology would change the event if we went to
RE: t-and-f: Re: German women + records
Netters Brian wrote: Wouldn't the EGR men have had the same excellent coaches and physios? He wasn't asking why the German women were so good but why there were not similar astounding, long-lasting WR's run by East German men. A side note here. There were some incredible coaches on the men's side as well just not in the sprints. The throws and the walks in particular. From 1980-88 the DDR walkers were the best in the world - drugs and training. I think when you look at the program the DDR had you will see they selected athletes with potential at many events and they viewed them all as equal. The system was through and it may well be that while they came across good sprinters in their search they didn't come across any world class guys. If there was one I doubt they would have missed it with that system. Remember too they didn't have a ton of great distance runners on the women's side but they did have good throwers and the male distance runners were better then there sprint counter parts. It may be that the German women tended to be better at the sprints then the men. I don't care if Seb Coe thinks he did what he did because of hard work or not. The only true statement one can make is that is that Olympians are Born (genetics) and then made (training). A shot putter is such because of the way he was born not because he lifted a lot of weights. Making some one built to be a shot putter do middle distance workouts is never going to make that person as good an 800 runner as Coe was. The argument other wise is so inane that I have hard time understanding why a rationale person would think that way. Just as I walk because that is what i am built for others throw or hit or wrestle. You become better (great) by training. Last I'd like to point I started my build up for the 2001 season last week. While I was out for my long walk (16 miles) it occurred to me that I was starting my 15th season since qualifying for my first Senior Championships in 1986. It is my 21st year since starting my first season of track in 1980. Good Training, Michael Rohl
t-and-f: interesting article on the changes in the walks
From Active.com/walking: Dave McGovern analyzes racewalking's bad image, impending solutions By Dave McGovern Active.com > Stu Forster/Allsport Peter Korzeniowski won the 20K and 50K gold medals in Sydney. >From a racewalker's perspective, the recent Olympic walks were among the most exciting in the history of the Games. To the rest of the world, they were a confusing, farcical mess. The sports seems to get along just fine in the off years, but then every quadrennium, like clockwork, all hell breaks loose when the world is watching. The millennial edition of the Games certainly didn't disappoint in that regard. In the men's 20-kilometer (12.4 miles) racewalk, world-record holder Bernardo Segura of Mexico sprinted across the finish line ahead of Robert Korzienowski of Poland, but was disqualified several minutes later after his victory lap and while receiving a congratulatory phone call from Mexican President Ernesto Zedillo.Then, during the women's 20K, the top three walkers were disqualified one by one, with Aussie Jane Sayville being pulled off the course within 200 meters of the finish before a stadium packed with stunned hometown fans. The developments befuddled spectators, and prompted outgoing International Olympic Committee (IOC) president Juan Antonio Samaranch to question the future of the sport's inclusion on the Olympic program. Who is at fault? The media, predictably, accused the disqualified walkers of of cheating. But in reality, that's like accusing a long-jumper of cheating if he misses his mark three times. The result in that case is the same: disqualification. Why then, when it happens to Marion Jones it's called a tragedy, but when it happens in the walks it's cheating? The difference boils down to two basic problems; one of logistics, the other of public perception. In most track field events, disqualifications are very easy to understand: two false starts, three missed heights, three wayward throws, and that's it: game over. The results are immediate. But that's not always the case in racewalking. While the field events and sprints are fairly self-contained, the Olympic walks are often far from it. The athletes start on the track, but then head out to complete a series of loops on a course outside the stadium. Judges line the course to ensure that the athletes are walking properly. If three separate judges detect violations, the athlete is disqualified. The problem under the current system is that only one judge, the head judge, is allowed to actually inform the walker that he's been disqualified. If all goes according to plan, it's a good system. It prevents walkers from being pulled off the course accidentally. But it also requires a lot of the head judge. He needs to verify that all cards have been turned in from three separate judges, then he has to actually find the athlete in question identified only by his race number somewhere on the 2-kilometer course. When the course is close to the stadium, that's usually not a problem. But when the course lies over 1 kilometer from the finish line at the track, the head judge has an awful lot of ground to cover, so he can't always get to a disqualified walker before the athlete gets into the stadium, as happened in the men's 20 kilometer race this year. Again, racewalkers understand this, but to the general public it's like telling the winning team in the World Series to hand over the trophy because the umpire decided 20 minutes after the game to call a third strike he saw back in the 7th inning. If racewalking's logistical problems confuse the public, the sport's terminology leaves the casual observer absolutely dumbfounded. The name racewalking leads the press and the general public to believe that the event is just a bunch of guys trying to walk fast, but biomechanically there's a world of difference. In fact, racewalking is about as different from fast walking as it is from running. Even so, as soon as Joe Six-Pack hears that a walker has been disqualified, he automatically assumes that the athlete broke into a run, which is almost never the case. In most cases, Olympic-level athletes are disqualified for lifting, or failing to keep at least one foot on the ground at all times while walking. It sounds simple enough, but again, the schism between the rules of the sport and public perception winds up giving racewalking a black eye. According to the wording of the rules, athletes may actually come off the ground a bit with each stride, as long as the flight phase can't be detected by the human eye. That may sound dodgy, but it's no different from officials failing to call traveling in basketball, or umpires granting a generous strike zone in baseball. The call is made by the human eye, and it's understood that there's a bit of a gray area between in and out. If an athlete comes close but is not clearly off the ground, a judge may issue a caution, which doesn't count against the walker. On the other hand, if the
Re: t-and-f: Fwd: IAAF Athletes of the Year announced
Netters, A few issues to deal with. Andrew Mcdonagh wrote: I am not saying your walker might not have deserved it more this year, That is the point Andrew. The award is about achievment this year not career. Career achievements are not germane to this issue/ He is well respected among all the worlds great track minds, it seems your just not one of them. Try to be less patronizing and provincial. I happen to have coached Javelin at the University of Eau Claire and coached one Junior Olympic Medalist in the event. Your arguments are invalid because you do not understand that the award is for the past year and nothing else. Next. Someone with the initials ACCTC posed: Because swimming and walking are not track and field. It is not a "track field" award. It is the IAAF Athlete of the Year award. Your argument is invalid because you do not know what the award was for. Then ACCTC went on to describe his unfortunate experience with racewalking which I sympathize with however the facts involved in that incident have nothing to do with who should have been IAAF Athlete of the Year. The point is this Jan's Record this year was simply not as good as Robert's and no one can argue otherwise with out bringing into the argument outside issues. Just look at the facts. Jan One Gold Olympic Record - defeated several times through out the year. Robert 2 Gold, Olympic Record only male double medalist in any event, a double win never accomplished before undefeated at both Olympic Distances. How can there be any question? He was robbed by narrow minded individuals. There can't be any other explanation.
Re: t-and-f: Footlocker Regionals QUESTION
Mcewen, Brian T writes: Maybe a coach or former athlete can answer this question. Brian I have an idea or two on these issues. Isn't the opening 1k just a bloodbath ... that possibly could knock down or spike runners who have a good chance of qualifying? How does any course accommodate 400 runners over a 5k distance? On this part I can say with all certainty that the Parkside course can handle 300-400 runners. In fact, I have been in races there with over 500. It is one of the most awesome sights in athletics. 500+ runners started by a cannon no less! So what gives? Why are these back-of-the-packers running the Regionals? The same reason people run 4 hour marathons. Because it is an "event, a happening". And they think it is fun. What method of "Seeding" are the Footlocker people using that lets a 22:00 boy into the race? Don't know the answer, but no one gets left out thats for sure. Why don't they limit the field to the 150-200 kids that have a remote chance at the top-8 finish required to move on, and ask the rest of the kids to run the non-qualifier races? Why bother at a place like Parkside, where you only have to run one race. Isn't it more of an embarrassment then an achievement to have to tell your family and friends that you were 322nd in your race over the weekend? Are people embarrassed to say they finished 22,325 in their race over the weekend? (and that a racewalker doing a workout fished 10,000 place in front of them:) No, I don't think so. This is one of those rare events where both participation and performance are important and blended well together. My question is why bother having a JO cross country program when you have this program which is so much more successful? And appropriate.
t-and-f: IAAF Athletes of the Year announced
Netters I demand a recount! ...don't think i need to say much else but let's face Jan's achievments pale in comparison to R.K.'s The only male double gold medalist, olympic record setter, undefeated at the olympic distances one loss at 5k.
Re: t-and-f: Footlocker Finalists Performances'
Netters I have to tell you that kid from Michigan that won the mid west has got to be incredible. He ran 14:35 on a muddy day on the parkside cousre, one of the hardest 5k courses around. Mike Dewitt said that thing ran slow and he and Lucian Rosa both agreed that would have been a sub 14:00 on the track. In my 10 years there the only time I ever saw anyone else do better than that was when the USATF Senior X-C was hosted there.
Re: t-and-f: NCAA XC Splits and Leader Info
Netters Wayne writes: Of course, some of you still take 1600 m splits. (1600 doesn't divide into integer kilometer distances very well either). Being one of those who uses the 1600 split in training, I will try to explain the irrational.:) I came into track just after the transition to the metric system for most highschools. To me 4 laps on a track is a mile even if it is only 1600m. Why? because the mile is my name for four complete laps those 9m mean about a 2 seconds to me. A discrepancy I can live with even if it drives statictians nuts. It comes down to intuitive familiarity. I can do 1k splits and convert to 1600 and back, but a 7:20 1600 means more to me then a 4:35. This is hard to explain because it gets into a really intangible area of comfort. In a long race on a track it is easier for me to check splits every 4 laps then every 2 and a half. It can be hard to try to remember which side of the track you have to be on to check the split. Walkers in general differ then runners in one aspect of there training. Most walkers train on small loops, accuartely measured. The majority of my training occurs on a 2k out and back - even on my easy days. This has a lot to do with the need for more control of surface and terrain. Walking doesn't work well where there is poor footing and walking down hills is pretty painful. But I digress... In regards to cross country, I have to disagree with Walt about times being meaningless. My times in cross country were always important to me and my coach and our team. A good experienced coach can "adjust" the times if the course runs slow or fast, if it is easy or hard. You can tell whether you team is improving by comparing to a standard course. My best road 8k was 27:27 my best x-c was 27:31. The only time I could really know a difference was when the course was mismeasured. As for understanding splits when I am on the track I think of 5ks as 3 1600 splits and a 200 kick and I think of 10k as 6 1600 splits and a 400 kick. And I'll bet I am not the on one who thinks that way. Interestingly though in 20ks on the road I think in terms of 1k and 2k splits. Guess it is just what ever gets you through the race.
Re: t-and-f: Doug Schneebeck deserves our vote
Netters Louise asked: the point is guys, that USATF should be funding, in some way, all levels of athletes...read what the initials represent,slowly But in what ways and why? For putting on the meet? ok, a little. Why because the majority of the athletes are masters and that is who attneds the National Convention? I don't think so. Sorry but funding for Masters athletes beyond putting on the National Masters just isn't going to fly with me or anyone else.
t-and-f: masters to funding
Netters Ryan wrote: That would be really swell...funding for all levels...but can I ask WHY? WHY does anybody need or deserve funding? Sure it would be nice, and its nice when you get it, but nothing is a birthright. The answer to the why is because that is what is said is going to be done. I deserved to get money back for my airline tickets to the trials because I earned it by performance and that is what I was told would happen. No one said it was a birth right but it is part of the charter of the amaeteur Sports act that the USOC promote sports at the grass roots level. Supposedly they do that by turning over the responsibility to the member federations. The USOC and the member federations gather sponsors to raise the money to do this. The primary focus for raising the money is the sponsorship of elite athletes. In order to be elite you have to be in a position to train at the absolute highest levels and that takes money. One argument I had with John Chaplin was over why American walkers are unable, for the most part, to compete. John's view was that of a high school coach. Not enough numbers. He felt the pool of athletes was too small to produce and elite athlete. However that is exactly not how the rest of the world develops athletes. IT is NOT a numbers game. It is a scouting and support game. Once given the chance and the opportunity Curt Clausen went ffrom 60th something in the world to 4th at the worlds. Incidently one of the athletes that John and I discussed was Curt. He couldn't have been more wrong. Then Alan Tobin wrote: My take is this: if you ain't getting funded then screw it and live life a littl poorly. You can't make it that way, I know. You can be very good but not at the very top that way. Michelle and I choose a life style, it is a simple one with out material goals, but that isn't the best way to be the best athlete. So what if a select group gets put up in some housing and has their meals fixed, gets massages, cold wirlpools and they don't have to work and this that and the other. Because these things should be based on performance. Because there are other athletes who are better athletes who get nothing or less. Funding useful...yes, but people have gotten by without it in the past. Yes but I can tell you just a little help can make a huge impact on someone's training. And my observation is that U.S. athletes are far behind the rest of the world in regards to PT, rest and recovery.
Re: t-and-f: Doug Schneebeck deserves our vote
Netters [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Actually I think it would be a great idea. Mantis And what exactly is that you think would be a good idea?
Re: t-and-f: Re: Team USA Training Centers - How and Why?
Netters Edward Nigma? Ed my apologies for being a bone head and really this is only because so many other bone heads come on with fake yahoo accounts. But have you ever noticed when you say Edward Nigma it comes out sort of close to enigma? Sorry.
t-and-f: short note
Netter just a quick note here: Winner of the Great lakes D2 Regional 1 Amber Antonia JR 732 University of Wisconsin-Parkside 21:54.0 Also 11th in the Olympic Trials in the 20k Walk in only her 3rd walking race and on less then 100 miles walking. Some good kung-fu going on there!
t-and-f: Just Say Yes!
Netters JP wrote: Well the truth is he was going to walk back but we all know GH's disdain for the walks. He couldn't walk back. Wrong initials the ones needed for that are JC.
t-and-f: Not EVERYONE is doping
Netters I recently made a really bad analogy. No i don't equate cocaine and epo as easily acssible. I was just trying to point out that saying some country or that individual is too poor to buy drugs can not be used as a blanket defense. That is all.
Re: t-and-f: YES ALL ELITE ARE ON DRUGS
Netters Ben Hall writes: In response too mantis: That is an idiotic statement. Mantis wrote: The question is Do you have to take the drugs to be an elite athlete? You would think that some people might learn... but Ben Hall Came to the same conclusion I already have... My wife is elite she is not nor ever has done drugs. You are wrong. Again. Note on the idea that African are too poor to buy drugs. Might I remind us all inner city dwellers are too poor to buy drugs?
Re: t-and-f: U.S. looks to clean up drug issues, by Sheila Hudson
Netters Peter wrote: This was just posted on the Canadian list. Any truth in it ? Yeah Pete. where you been? It came across over a month ago. Ephidrine results in a warning - so why would he not compete? Not a big deal here I think.
Re: t-and-f: Cottrell Hunter .... retiring?
Netters Walt wrote: Hunter announced his retirement in an interview he did with NBC's Ahmad Rashad in Sydney before the public announcement of his positive tests. To ad to that I recall that in one interview that C.J. had said that the only reason he was competing was because Marion was. That he had intended to quit several years ago but stayed on so he could travel with her. At the press conference in Sydney or at least at some public point he had said he did not take the drugs and that track just did not mean that much to him. He had expressed those sentiments before. Which is one reason I was surprised about the positives and somewhat curious.
Re: t-and-f: Depth of Talent
Netters In response to David Monti's list - do we even have that many guys in the U.S? Also note only 7 are 30+ Next question - S.A. is so deep like this - a 10 second gap - why aren't they better in Cross?
Re: t-and-f: The Walks
Netters I leave in one day - computer time is limited. I will answer what I can. race. That Australian lady must be in such a depression tonight. Jane Saville most likely single handedly saved the event and a riot. She was qouted several times as saying that being dqed was part of the event. That she was sure the judges were fair and that she would work more on her technique and would walk next year. However, I have a question for the Walkers on the list. Hopefully, this is not a ridiculous question, but what type of long term effects does the event have on your hips and knees? I cringe watching it, it looks as though a Walkers joints are going to pop. Less problems then elite runners and diferent problems - though nothing special about knees or hips. Back and Hamsting are most common. SOme IT band and lots psoas injuries. Also, question to MIke Rohl. How did the time Michelle put up in the 20k compare to her seasonal best? Michelle was about 2 minutes off her best time - much less then the trest of the field wich averaged around 4 minutes slow. It was a hard course. Michelle came in with the 33 fastest time and finished 17th. She was beat by one walker who's PR was slower then hers. She had a nice solid technical race. She''l be back next year:)
Re: t-and-f: Bob Costas's view of race walking
Netters, From the villiage here... What Costas did. Was in 88. He or rather the producers had some callopy type music played then Costas said :He didn't set a world record, but at least he walked like a man." Now, after that he got a ton of letters and in 92 said "I donb't know haw may racewalkers there are in the U.S. but they sure do write a lot of letters." Then he played a taped tribute. The whispering loudest coment is one said many but the first one i have ever heard it attirbuted to was someone with a last name: Hersh. Honestly don't know which one. The 50k was viloently hot and Koresonoswki is incredible! AOY - no one else can even compare. Two Golds. Defends the undefendable does the undoable double! This rival even a paltry 200-400 double. Back to the villiage. Reports coming soon, now that I can get on a comp.
