date:20181205



sent from a phone

> On 5. Dec 2018, at 22:02, Sergio Manzi  wrote:
> 
> I have the same problem for some shop categories which are not part of the 
> US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is in no way similar to a US 
> "deli" shop...


indeed there could be room to add a category or subcategory for these. 
It is similar to a French charcuterie though, do they have a specific tag?

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Joseph, I take note of your opinion (/but I beg to differ as I was thinking in 
a general/theoretical way and not specifically to the example brought on by 
Eugene/).

Just let me clarify that in my examples the English tag were always present 
(/there were always water=pond/): *that was on purpose* as I never thought 
about features tagged by language-specific tags *only*.

Cheers,

Sergio


On 2018-12-06 02:16, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> It’s difficult enough that Indonesians have to understand English to use 
> OpenStreetMap effectively, or at least have to find English-based tags that 
> match Indonesian words. But if we encourage inventing tagging things in 
> hundreds of languages it will become even more difficult to use this global 
> database.
>
> I’d suggest that the original poster, Eugene Podshivaliv, or other Russian 
> language speakers, talk about what defines the difference between the two 
> types of pond, “пруд” and “копанка”, and then make a new subtag for pond=*
> If there is no better word we could even use pond=копанка for example, but I 
> suspect that it could be translated.
>
> If there is no consistent difference between the two words, then a new tag 
> should not be used.
>
> For example, in America we can call a waterway=stream a “brook”, “creek”, 
> “run” and several other things. These waterways will be tagged 
> waterway=stream or =river (depending on size) with name=“Bull Run”, =“Walker 
> Creek”, =“Johnson’s Brook”, etc. 
>
> We don’t use waterway=creek or waterway=run because there is no consistent 
> difference between these. In fact in Standard British English a Creek is 
> often a tidal channel in a salt marsh or mangroves.
>
> OSM tags should have a consistent definition.
>
> On the other hand, a name can contain whatever the feature is called locally, 
> and this can include pond, lake, mere, tarn, brook, stream, creek, run, etc.
>
> So it would be best to use one of the many existing name tags to include the 
> local term, which is often considered part of the name. 
>
> Eg, alt_name:ru=, loc_name=, official_name= etc, as appropriate based on 
> local usage.
>
> -Joseph
>
> On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 9:47 AM Sergio Manzi  > wrote:
>
> I mean, in a more general way and going back to the pond case,
>
> object 1:
>
> natural=water
> water=pond
> water:RU=пруд
>
> object 2
>
> natural=water
> water=pond
> water:RU=копанка
>
> would respect both *our *sensibility to "see" the two objects as ponds 
> and *their *sensibility to "see" the two as whatever they think they are.
>
>
> On 2018-12-06 01:37, Sergio Manzi wrote:
>>
>> In this case I think the "alt_name:ru" tag solution could be a very good 
>> solution (/but I leave this to our Russian friend to decide.../), but why do 
>> you see that preferable to the water:ru=озеро solution?
>>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tourism=attraction: feature or secondary tag?

2018-12-05 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick

On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 10:57, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

>
> do you mean, 1) it is impossible to invent a tag for it which better
>> describes its nature, or 2) that nobody has yet invented and documented
>> such a tag?
>>
>
> 1) is probably not possible
> 2) would be good
> I’m just not able to think of any examples.
>

I have seen spots on the map that have only been tagged as
tourism=attraction, but every one I've looked at has been able to have an
extra tag added (which then also changes the rendered icon)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

It’s difficult enough that Indonesians have to understand English to use
OpenStreetMap effectively, or at least have to find English-based tags that
match Indonesian words. But if we encourage inventing tagging things in
hundreds of languages it will become even more difficult to use this global
database.

I’d suggest that the original poster, Eugene Podshivaliv, or other Russian
language speakers, talk about what defines the difference between the two
types of pond, “пруд” and “копанка”, and then make a new subtag for pond=*
If there is no better word we could even use pond=копанка for example, but
I suspect that it could be translated.

If there is no consistent difference between the two words, then a new tag
should not be used.

For example, in America we can call a waterway=stream a “brook”, “creek”,
“run” and several other things. These waterways will be tagged
waterway=stream or =river (depending on size) with name=“Bull Run”,
=“Walker Creek”, =“Johnson’s Brook”, etc.

We don’t use waterway=creek or waterway=run because there is no consistent
difference between these. In fact in Standard British English a Creek is
often a tidal channel in a salt marsh or mangroves.

OSM tags should have a consistent definition.

On the other hand, a name can contain whatever the feature is called
locally, and this can include pond, lake, mere, tarn, brook, stream, creek,
run, etc.

So it would be best to use one of the many existing name tags to include
the local term, which is often considered part of the name.

Eg, alt_name:ru=, loc_name=, official_name= etc, as appropriate based on
local usage.

-Joseph

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 9:47 AM Sergio Manzi  wrote:

> I mean, in a more general way and going back to the pond case,
>
> object 1:
>
> natural=water
> water=pond
> water:RU=пруд
>
> object 2
>
> natural=water
> water=pond
> water:RU=копанка
>
> would respect both *our *sensibility to "see" the two objects as ponds
> and *their *sensibility to "see" the two as whatever they think they are.
>
>
> On 2018-12-06 01:37, Sergio Manzi wrote:
>
> In this case I think the "alt_name:ru" tag solution could be a very good
> solution (*but I leave this to our Russian friend to decide...*), but why
> do you see that preferable to the water:ru=озеро solution?
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Re: “once someone told me that Eskimo people have dozens of different names
for "snow"”

It’s a bit complex, starting with defining “Eskimo”:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow

Many Trans-New-Guinean languages here will use only one word for all water
features, eg river, lake, spring, swamp are all “ok” meaning “water”. But
of course they all understand that there is a difference between a flowing
river and standing water in a lake.

Fortunately English has an an unusually large vocabulary and is amenable to
borrowing words, so it’s usually possible to invent a good tag for OSM
purposes, based on English.
On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:56 AM Sergio Manzi  wrote:

> Naaahhh... just "complex*" *or* "*complicated"  (*I don't know which one
> is better in English*)...:-)
> On 2018-12-06 00:48, Paul Allen wrote:
>
> The real world is messy.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Naaahhh... just "complex/" /or/"/complicated"  (/I don't know which one is 
better in English/)...    :-)

On 2018-12-06 00:48, Paul Allen wrote:
> The real world is messy.
>

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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread Paul Allen

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:43 PM Sergio Manzi  wrote:

> so maybe there could be two things that for me and you are both a "pond",
> but for a Russian are two different things that must be distinguished...
>

It's entirely possible.  I believe that Russian uses a single word for both
apes and monkeys.  That's
not geographic, but it shows that some languages/cultures make distinctions
that others do not.

The real world is messy.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

/air == water/ is one of those things that makes me really smile and think on 
how wonderfully diverse we are...

but your examples are different to what I thought. In my examples it would be:

natural:ID=air
water:ID=danau

which I understand it would be overkill and probably better served by automatic 
translation.

But you know, different languages/cultures have different sensibilities on how 
two things may be diverse (/once someone told me that Eskimo people have dozens 
of different names for "snow"/), so maybe there could be two things that for me 
and you are both a "pond", but for a Russian are two different things that must 
be distinguished...


On 2018-12-06 00:28, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> Assuming that “озеро” is a more or less direct translation of “lake”, then 
> the Russian use is going to have to search for “water=lake”, though I hope 
> someone will make a translation interface for Overpass Turbo that will 
> understand natural language queries.
>
> You wouldn’t suggest that I add tags such as “alam=air” and “air=danau” to 
> every lake in your country so that Indonesians can search in their own 
> language, perhaps?
>
> (That’s “natural=water” and “water=lake” in Bahasa Indonesia. Yes, “air” 
> means “water”)
>
> -Joseph
>
> On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:19 AM Sergio Manzi  > wrote:
>
> I understand your concerns and tend to agree, but how would you manage 
> the situation where a Russian want to name the lake as it is known in his 
> language, just "Байкал" (/assuming this is the case.../), but also wanting to 
> find it with the "озеро" (lake) keyword?
>
> On 2018-12-06 00:12, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>> But I don’t see a need to translate water=lake into Russian; lest we 
>> have to do this for every tag in every language. But I believe the Editor 
>> applications, like JOSM and ID, will provide a Russian translation for 
>> mappers.
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Assuming that “озеро” is a more or less direct translation of “lake”, then
the Russian use is going to have to search for “water=lake”, though I hope
someone will make a translation interface for Overpass Turbo that will
understand natural language queries.

You wouldn’t suggest that I add tags such as “alam=air” and “air=danau” to
every lake in your country so that Indonesians can search in their own
language, perhaps?

(That’s “natural=water” and “water=lake” in Bahasa Indonesia. Yes, “air”
means “water”)

-Joseph

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:19 AM Sergio Manzi  wrote:

> I understand your concerns and tend to agree, but how would you manage the
> situation where a Russian want to name the lake as it is known in his
> language, just "Байкал" (*assuming this is the case...*), but also
> wanting to find it with the "озеро" (lake) keyword?
> On 2018-12-06 00:12, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>
> But I don’t see a need to translate water=lake into Russian; lest we have
> to do this for every tag in every language. But I believe the Editor
> applications, like JOSM and ID, will provide a Russian translation for
> mappers.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Probably should be

name=Байкал
name:en=Lake Baikal
Etc.

But I don’t see a need to translate water=lake into Russian; lest we have
to do this for every tag in every language. But I believe the Editor
applications, like JOSM and ID, will provide a Russian translation for
mappers.

 Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:07 AM Sergio Manzi  wrote:

> I understand the name of Lake Baikal in Russian is "Байкал", without the "
> озерo" attribute, but you want to be able to search for озеро as well:
> would the following be acceptable/valid?
>
> water=lake
> water:RU=озеро
> name=Lake Baikal
> name:RU=Байкал
> name:FR=Lac Baïkal
>
> On 2018-12-05 23:41, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
>
> Marc and OSMDoudou,
> I did see that in France they put their local school categories into
> "school:FR" tag but do you think this approach can be propogated for all
> other categories?
> E.g. in Russian there are different types of man-made small bodies of
> water. Will it work to denote them as water:RU=пруд and water:RU=копанка
> instead of the generic water=pond?
>
> Graeme,
>
>> When you say "you get results which differ a lot from what is locally
>> called a "lake".", do you mean what is called a lake in Russia,
>> or what is called a lake in the country you are searching in?
>
> I mean when you search for "water=lake" tag you don't necesseraly get
> "озеро" (which is usually tranlated from Russian as "lake"). So unless you
> have "озеро" in the name tag you will never find all these objects which
> are called "озеро" in Russian.
>
>> Because, if you search for "lake" in Australia, you will find a lot of
>> references to salt lakes, possibly dry, that may only actually have water
>> in them very rarely,
>> or in some cases, never in human memory! But they are still called lakes,
>> the same as the "normal" inland bodies of water.
>
> There is intermitent=yes tag to denote dry lakes as far as I remember.
>
> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 01:04, Sergio Manzi :
>
>> you're probably right, but it would nonetheless be the "*child of a
>> lesser God*" compared to a "deli" in New York, USA...
>>
>>
>> On 2018-12-05 22:51, Dave F wrote:
>>
>> Going off topic, but you /can/ tag it as "shop=salumeria", it will still
>> be searchable & will be displayed on the standard map with its name & a dot.
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Re:
> “when you search for "water=lake" tag you don't necesseraly get "озеро"
(which is usually tranlated from Russian as "lake").

> So unless you have "озеро" in the name tag you will never find all these
objects which are called "озеро" in Russian.

Ok, so you’ve noticed that many lakes are tagged as natural=water only,
correct? It is recommended to add water=lake, but because natural=water is
sufficient to get a water area to render on most maps, I believe many
mappers don’t bother to add the more precise tags.

Re:
> “in Russian there are different types of man-made small bodies of water.
> “Will it work to denote them as water:RU=пруд and water:RU=копанка
instead of the generic water=pond?”

I don’t know Russian and Google Translate is not helping, but I would
recommend tagging all small man-made ponds as natural=water plus
water=pond. If пруд and копанка are two types of pond that can be clearly
distinguished, then you could try to translate these words and make up a
sub-category for ponds, eg pond=копанка or better pond=<копанка translated
into British English>, which could be added in addition to water=pond.

(Also note that larger artificial water bodies are called reservoirs in
English rather than ponds, so there is already one distinction)

Could you describe the physical difference between a пруд and a копанка?

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 7:51 AM marc marc  wrote:

> Le 05. 12. 18 à 23:41, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> > I did see that in France they put their local school categories into
> > "school:FR" tag but do you think this approach can be propogated for all
> > other categories?
>
> school:FR is a visible sign of a failure of the global proposal for
> school reform at the global level, so no, I really wouldn't advise
> to do it again.
> I think it is more interesting to try to find a global criterion to make
> subcategories, otherwise we end up with one osm per country instead of
> one global osm
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

I understand the name of Lake Baikal in Russian is "Байкал", without the 
"озерo" attribute, but you want to be able to search for озеро as well: would 
the following be acceptable/valid?

water=lake
water:RU=озеро
name=Lake Baikal
name:RU=Байкал
name:FR=Lac Baïkal

On 2018-12-05 23:41, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
> Marc and OSMDoudou,
> I did see that in France they put their local school categories into 
> "school:FR" tag but do you think this approach can be propogated for all 
> other categories?
> E.g. in Russian there are different types of man-made small bodies of water. 
> Will it work to denote them as water:RU=пруд and water:RU=копанка instead of 
> the generic water=pond?
>
> Graeme,
>
> When you say "you get results which differ a lot from what is locally 
> called a "lake".", do you mean what is called a lake in Russia, 
> or what is called a lake in the country you are searching in?
>
> I mean when you search for "water=lake" tag you don't necesseraly get "озеро" 
> (which is usually tranlated from Russian as "lake"). So unless you have 
> "озеро" in the name tag you will never find all these objects which are 
> called "озеро" in Russian.
>
> Because, if you search for "lake" in Australia, you will find a lot of 
> references to salt lakes, possibly dry, that may only actually have water in 
> them very rarely, 
> or in some cases, never in human memory! But they are still called lakes, 
> the same as the "normal" inland bodies of water.
>
> There is intermitent=yes tag to denote dry lakes as far as I remember.
>
> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 01:04, Sergio Manzi mailto:s...@smz.it>>:
>
> you're probably right, but it would nonetheless be the "/child of a 
> lesser God/" compared to a "deli" in New York, USA...
>
>
> On 2018-12-05 22:51, Dave F wrote:
>
>> Going off topic, but you /can/ tag it as "shop=salumeria", it will still 
>> be searchable & will be displayed on the standard map with its name & a dot.
>
>


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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread marc marc

Le 05. 12. 18 à 23:41, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> I did see that in France they put their local school categories into 
> "school:FR" tag but do you think this approach can be propogated for all 
> other categories?

school:FR is a visible sign of a failure of the global proposal for 
school reform at the global level, so no, I really wouldn't advise
to do it again.
I think it is more interesting to try to find a global criterion to make 
subcategories, otherwise we end up with one osm per country instead of 
one global osm
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Marc and OSMDoudou,
I did see that in France they put their local school categories into
"school:FR" tag but do you think this approach can be propogated for all
other categories?
E.g. in Russian there are different types of man-made small bodies of
water. Will it work to denote them as water:RU=пруд and water:RU=копанка
instead of the generic water=pond?

Graeme,

> When you say "you get results which differ a lot from what is locally
> called a "lake".", do you mean what is called a lake in Russia,
> or what is called a lake in the country you are searching in?

I mean when you search for "water=lake" tag you don't necesseraly get
"озеро" (which is usually tranlated from Russian as "lake"). So unless you
have "озеро" in the name tag you will never find all these objects which
are called "озеро" in Russian.

> Because, if you search for "lake" in Australia, you will find a lot of
> references to salt lakes, possibly dry, that may only actually have water
> in them very rarely,
> or in some cases, never in human memory! But they are still called lakes,
> the same as the "normal" inland bodies of water.

There is intermitent=yes tag to denote dry lakes as far as I remember.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 01:04, Sergio Manzi :

> you're probably right, but it would nonetheless be the "*child of a
> lesser God*" compared to a "deli" in New York, USA...
>
>
> On 2018-12-05 22:51, Dave F wrote:
>
> Going off topic, but you /can/ tag it as "shop=salumeria", it will still
> be searchable & will be displayed on the standard map with its name & a dot.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

you're probably right, but it would nonetheless be the "/child of a lesser 
God/" compared to a "deli" in New York, USA...


On 2018-12-05 22:51, Dave F wrote:

> Going off topic, but you /can/ tag it as "shop=salumeria", it will still be 
> searchable & will be displayed on the standard map with its name & a dot.
>


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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread Dave F

Going off topic, but you /can/ tag it as "shop=salumeria", it will still 
be searchable & will be displayed on the standard map with its name & a dot.


DaveF

On 05/12/2018 21:26, Sergio Manzi wrote:


But maybe I've misunderstood your question: if you where asking how I 
would like to tag a salumeria, the answer for me would be really 
simple: "shop=salumeria"


On 2018-12-05 22:23, Sergio Manzi wrote:


There is no way I can think of: for lack of better tagging some very 
different shop categories (/very different in our culture..//./), 
like the aforementioned "salumeria", "rosticeria", "polleria", the 
generic "alimentari", and many others, have all been tagged as 
"shop=deli", so we have "/lost part of our traditions/" for the sake 
of simplification and the urge of a methodical tagging schema which 
is rooted in a different culture.


It is sad, I guess..


On 2018-12-05 22:10, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
What is your solution for denoting "salumeria" shop so that it was 
possible to grab all shops of that kind from the database?



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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick

On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 04:04, Eugene Podshivalov  wrote:

> if you cannot perform such simple tasks with it like getting a list of for
> example lakes within a specific country? You search for water=lake but you
> get results which differ a lot from what is locally called a "lake".
>

When you say "you get results which differ a lot from what is locally
called a "lake".", do you mean what is called a lake in Russia,
or what is called a lake in the country you are searching in?

Because, if you search for "lake" in Australia, you will find a lot of
references to salt lakes, possibly dry, that may only actually have water
in them *very* rarely,
or in some cases, never in human memory! But they are still called lakes,
the same as the "normal" inland bodies of water.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread marc marc

Le 05. 12. 18 à 20:20, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> Marc,
> 
> the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of
> the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are
> located,
> he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its
> name. 
> 
> Would you be understoon if you ask someone "where is 'The 4 cantons""?

not at all !
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantons_of_Switzerland
Switzerland has 26 cantons and if you ask where the 4 cantons are, you 
will be asked which one ? those from the north? those speaking French? 
those from the plain? in short, "the 4 cantons" mean nothing.
the lake of the 4 cantons+ is the real and complete name of a lake.
it is so called because at one point in the past, it was spread over
4 cantons. but nothing at this place is called "4 cantons" without
the word lake. and currently the lake is spread over 5 cantons :)

Le 05. 12. 18 à 20:31, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
 > How do you find all french ecoles?

may I ask you if it's your first use of osm ?
to look for all french ecoles : amenity=school in France
for ex with overpass https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Ej3
you may also look for all french "ecoles" without a name in osm!
if you want to said that amenity=school return several subtype
then you need a "sub-tag", France do it with school:FR
and maybe one day, a international sub-tag 'll be used
But in all case, it's fully wrong to parse the name tag for this.

Regards,
Marc
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

... or maybe a better solution, if we would like the kind of shop to be 
comprhensible to people of different culture, then I would establish a 
namespace for food shops and then specify the (/locally relevant/) kind of 
shop, like eg. shop:food=salumeria.

On 2018-12-05 22:26, Sergio Manzi wrote:
>
> But maybe I've misunderstood your question: if you where asking how I would 
> like to tag a salumeria, the answer for me would be really simple: 
> "shop=salumeria"
>
> On 2018-12-05 22:23, Sergio Manzi wrote:
>>
>> There is no way I can think of: for lack of better tagging some very 
>> different shop categories (/very different in our culture..//./), like the 
>> aforementioned "salumeria", "rosticeria", "polleria", the generic 
>> "alimentari", and many others, have all been tagged as "shop=deli", so we 
>> have "/lost part of our traditions/" for the sake of simplification and the 
>> urge of a methodical tagging schema which is rooted in a different culture.
>>
>> It is sad, I guess..
>>
>>
>> On 2018-12-05 22:10, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
>>> What is your solution for denoting "salumeria" shop so that it was possible 
>>> to grab all shops of that kind from the database?


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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

There is no way I can think of: for lack of better tagging some very different 
shop categories (/very different in our culture..//./), like the aforementioned 
"salumeria", "rosticeria", "polleria", the generic "alimentari", and many 
others, have all been tagged as "shop=deli", so we have "/lost part of our 
traditions/" for the sake of simplification and the urge of a methodical 
tagging schema which is rooted in a different culture.

It is sad, I guess..

On 2018-12-05 22:10, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
> What is your solution for denoting "salumeria" shop so that it was possible 
> to grab all shops of that kind from the database?

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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread OSMDoudou

So, are you then asking how to find this school or any other, without searching 
through the name tag ?

Then, search for elements tagged with amenity=school.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity=school

And if you want to search elementary schools, search for school=* or 
isced:level=* (provided it’s tagged).

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:school
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:isced:level

This school happens to be tagged with school:FR=élémentaire.

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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Sergio,
>
> I don't think one should try to frame what is a local French reality, an 
> "École
> primaire", into an US or UK based context

The is no need to do it. But there should be some generally recognized
concept for doing it locally for local context.
What is your solution for denoting "salumeria" shop so that it was possible
to grab all shops of that kind from the database?

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 00:03, Sergio Manzi :

> Once again, reality is complex and multifaced: I don't think one should
> try to frame what is a local French reality, an "École primaire", into an
> US or UK based context: let the French decide...
>
> I have the same problem for some shop categories which are not part of the
> US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is in no way similar to a US
> "deli" shop...
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salumeria
>
>
> On 2018-12-05 21:45, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
>
> It looks like I've directed you a bit off the initial topic to the
> definition of proper name.
> Let us look at it from the other side. Assume we all agree that "École
> primaire des Quatre Fils" is the proper name.
> Is there some common approach for denoting locally recognized categories
> which differ from commonly approved tags?
> E.g. how to denote the " École primaire" category?
>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

P.S.: ... but if I want my /salumeria /to show up on the map, I *have to* "/lie 
for the rendering/" and tag it as a shop=deli: but'I'm not happy at all...

On 2018-12-05 22:02, Sergio Manzi wrote:
>
> Once again, reality is complex and multifaced: I don't think one should try 
> to frame what is a local French reality, an "École primaire", into an US or 
> UK based context: let the French decide...
>
> I have the same problem for some shop categories which are not part of the 
> US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is in no way similar to a US 
> "deli" shop...
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salumeria
>
>
> On 2018-12-05 21:45, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
>> It looks like I've directed you a bit off the initial topic to the 
>> definition of proper name.
>> Let us look at it from the other side. Assume we all agree that "École 
>> primaire des Quatre Fils" is the proper name.
>> Is there some common approach for denoting locally recognized categories 
>> which differ from commonly approved tags?
>> E.g. how to denote the " École primaire" category?


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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Once again, reality is complex and multifaced: I don't think one should try to 
frame what is a local French reality, an "École primaire", into an US or UK 
based context: let the French decide...

I have the same problem for some shop categories which are not part of the 
US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is in no way similar to a US "deli" 
shop...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salumeria

On 2018-12-05 21:45, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
> It looks like I've directed you a bit off the initial topic to the definition 
> of proper name.
> Let us look at it from the other side. Assume we all agree that "École 
> primaire des Quatre Fils" is the proper name.
> Is there some common approach for denoting locally recognized categories 
> which differ from commonly approved tags?
> E.g. how to denote the " École primaire" category?

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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

It looks like I've directed you a bit off the initial topic to the
definition of proper name.
Let us look at it from the other side. Assume we all agree that "École
primaire des Quatre Fils" is the proper name.
Is there some common approach for denoting locally recognized categories
which differ from commonly approved tags?
E.g. how to denote the " École primaire" category?

ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 23:10, Imre Samu :

> > If I live next to a place called 'Hudson Bay' then I put name='Hudson
> Bay' even if some may argue it may not be a Bay.
>
> We can link most of the objects to the Wikidata
> https://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/details.php?place_id=1282777   ->
> wikidata=Q3040  ->  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3040 ->   *instance of
> ["inland sea" ;  "bay" ]*
>
> So if somebody don't like the osm categories ( for query ),   it is
> possible to use the Wikidata categories
>
> Eiffel tower :   https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q243
> instance of
> -  lattice tower
> -  observation tower
> -  landmark
> -  tourist destination
>
> So with linked data (wikidata, lau numbers )  - we can extend the power of
> the OSM
> One of the example:  https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sophox  ( some
> query is not working yet )
>
> Imre
>
>
> Topographe Fou  ezt írta (időpont: 2018. dec.
> 5., Sze, 20:07):
>
>> I don't see as many issues in your exemple... If École or Musée is part
>> of the name, I don't see why we shall invent a truncated name. It's not
>> because the type is part of the name that we shall remove it.
>>
>> Let's take a more famous example: 'Arc de Triomphe' is the name of a
>> landmark in Paris but it is also an 'Arc' (Arch in English). Same for 'Tour
>> Eiffel' (which is a Tour, i.e. a Tower, but also an antenna). I don't see
>> any solution in renaming them Eiffel or Triomphe. Instead we use the name
>> for the 'name' and add their types (a Tower, an arch, a landmark, an
>> antenna...) in attributes.
>>
>> And if one needs to list all Lakes in a given country then you have your
>> answer: If it is on a geological basis, then he will look for attributes
>> others than 'name'. If it is on a 'per use' basis, i.e. he wants to know
>> which water area is called lake no matter if it is really one or not, then
>> he will look in the name considering all possible translations. If I live
>> next to a place called 'Hudson Bay' then I put name='Hudson Bay' even if
>> some may argue it may not be a Bay.
>>
>> Consequently I don't see a real issue there.
>>
>> Yours
>>
>> LeTopographeFou
>> *De:* yauge...@gmail.com
>> *Envoyé:* 5 décembre 2018 7:37 PM
>> *À:* tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> *Répondre à:* tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> *Objet:* Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?
>>
>> Martin,
>>
>>> this is already the case. At least it should be like this, if you see
>>> places where the name tag is abused for descriptions you should fix it. I
>>> admit, it is not always possible to clearly tell which is the correct name,
>>> for some kind of things, not even in the real world.
>>> At least in OSM you can add alternative names, generically or with
>>> specific meaning (loc_name, short_name, etc.)
>>
>> The name tag is abused very often and systematically. Let's take at look
>> at this spot in the centre of Paris
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
>> You can see category names displayed everywhere there, e.g. musium,
>> hotel, school (in French).
>> As a result when you query OSM database for some category items you have
>> to apply algorithms for clearing category names from the name field to get
>> just proper names.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Eugene
>>
>>
>> ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 20:25, Martin Koppenhoefer :
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am Mi., 5. Dez. 2018 um 16:50 Uhr schrieb Eugene Podshivalov <
>>> yauge...@gmail.com>:
>>>
 I invision the following solution here.

 * First of all, the "name" tag should containt proper name only.

>>>
>>>
>>> this is already the case. At least it should be like this, if you see
>>> places where the name tag is abused for descriptions you should fix it. I
>>> admit, it is not always possible to clearly tell which is the correct name,
>>> for some kind of things, not even in the real world.
>>> At least in OSM you can add alternative names, generically or with
>>> specific meaning (loc_name, short_name, etc.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
 * Secondly, introduce a new tag for the real life language specific
 category name. I know that "name:prefix/postfix" key was originally
 introduced for another purpose but it can be a candidate here as well. Note
 that in some languages the place of category name relative to the proper
 name matters.

>>>
>>>
>>> I agree this could make sense, I am doing it for places where you can
>>> eat with this tag and local values:
>>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/restaurant%3Atype%3Ait#values
>>>
>>> I would not expect it useful for any kind of things, but there are
>>> fields with cultural specialties

Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread Imre Samu

> If I live next to a place called 'Hudson Bay' then I put name='Hudson
Bay' even if some may argue it may not be a Bay.

We can link most of the objects to the Wikidata
https://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/details.php?place_id=1282777   ->
wikidata=Q3040  ->  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3040 ->   *instance of
["inland sea" ;  "bay" ]*

So if somebody don't like the osm categories ( for query ),   it is
possible to use the Wikidata categories

Eiffel tower :   https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q243
instance of
-  lattice tower
-  observation tower
-  landmark
-  tourist destination

So with linked data (wikidata, lau numbers )  - we can extend the power of
the OSM
One of the example:  https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sophox  ( some
query is not working yet )

Imre


Topographe Fou  ezt írta (időpont: 2018. dec.
5., Sze, 20:07):

> I don't see as many issues in your exemple... If École or Musée is part of
> the name, I don't see why we shall invent a truncated name. It's not
> because the type is part of the name that we shall remove it.
>
> Let's take a more famous example: 'Arc de Triomphe' is the name of a
> landmark in Paris but it is also an 'Arc' (Arch in English). Same for 'Tour
> Eiffel' (which is a Tour, i.e. a Tower, but also an antenna). I don't see
> any solution in renaming them Eiffel or Triomphe. Instead we use the name
> for the 'name' and add their types (a Tower, an arch, a landmark, an
> antenna...) in attributes.
>
> And if one needs to list all Lakes in a given country then you have your
> answer: If it is on a geological basis, then he will look for attributes
> others than 'name'. If it is on a 'per use' basis, i.e. he wants to know
> which water area is called lake no matter if it is really one or not, then
> he will look in the name considering all possible translations. If I live
> next to a place called 'Hudson Bay' then I put name='Hudson Bay' even if
> some may argue it may not be a Bay.
>
> Consequently I don't see a real issue there.
>
> Yours
>
> LeTopographeFou
> *De:* yauge...@gmail.com
> *Envoyé:* 5 décembre 2018 7:37 PM
> *À:* tagging@openstreetmap.org
> *Répondre à:* tagging@openstreetmap.org
> *Objet:* Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?
>
> Martin,
>
>> this is already the case. At least it should be like this, if you see
>> places where the name tag is abused for descriptions you should fix it. I
>> admit, it is not always possible to clearly tell which is the correct name,
>> for some kind of things, not even in the real world.
>> At least in OSM you can add alternative names, generically or with
>> specific meaning (loc_name, short_name, etc.)
>
> The name tag is abused very often and systematically. Let's take at look
> at this spot in the centre of Paris
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
> You can see category names displayed everywhere there, e.g. musium, hotel,
> school (in French).
> As a result when you query OSM database for some category items you have
> to apply algorithms for clearing category names from the name field to get
> just proper names.
>
> Regards,
> Eugene
>
>
> ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 20:25, Martin Koppenhoefer :
>
>>
>>
>> Am Mi., 5. Dez. 2018 um 16:50 Uhr schrieb Eugene Podshivalov <
>> yauge...@gmail.com>:
>>
>>> I invision the following solution here.
>>>
>>> * First of all, the "name" tag should containt proper name only.
>>>
>>
>>
>> this is already the case. At least it should be like this, if you see
>> places where the name tag is abused for descriptions you should fix it. I
>> admit, it is not always possible to clearly tell which is the correct name,
>> for some kind of things, not even in the real world.
>> At least in OSM you can add alternative names, generically or with
>> specific meaning (loc_name, short_name, etc.)
>>
>>
>>
>>> * Secondly, introduce a new tag for the real life language specific
>>> category name. I know that "name:prefix/postfix" key was originally
>>> introduced for another purpose but it can be a candidate here as well. Note
>>> that in some languages the place of category name relative to the proper
>>> name matters.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I agree this could make sense, I am doing it for places where you can eat
>> with this tag and local values:
>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/restaurant%3Atype%3Ait#values
>>
>> I would not expect it useful for any kind of things, but there are fields
>> with cultural specialties where I agree that it would be hard to agree on
>> detailed categories on a global level, and still it might not make sense
>> outside of a specific cultural context anyway.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

OSMDoudou,

> Do you mean "École primaire des Quatre Fils" doesn't have a proper name ?
> What would be a better name ?

I would say that the category is "École primaire" and the proper name is
"des Quatre Fils" but the the commonly used phrase is all together.
The question was about some general approach for seaching objects of a
particular category? How do you find all french ecoles? By name tag? How do
you find other objects which do not have category name in the name tag then?

ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 21:58, OSMDoudou <
19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com>:

> > Let's take at look at this spot in the centre of Paris
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
> > You can see category names displayed everywhere there, e.g. musium,
> hotel, school (in French).
> > As a result when you query OSM database for some category items you have
> to apply algorithms for clearing
> > category names from the name field to get just proper names
>
> Not sure I understand.
>
> Do you mean "École primaire des Quatre Fils" doesn't have a proper name ?
>
> What would be a better name ?
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Marc,
>
> the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of
> the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are located,
> he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its name.

Would you be understoon if you ask someone "where is 'The 4 cantons""?

ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 21:56, marc marc :

> Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> > The name tag is abused very often and systematically.
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
>
> just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does not necessarily
> mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and not "abc"
>
> the same for the lakes.
> the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called "Léman"
> and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
> But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of
> the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are located,
> he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its name.
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread Topographe Fou

I don't see as many issues in your exemple... If École or Musée is part of the name, I don't see why we shall invent a truncated name. It's not because the type is part of the name that we shall remove it.Let's take a more famous example: 'Arc de Triomphe' is the name of a landmark in Paris but it is also an 'Arc' (Arch in English). Same for 'Tour Eiffel' (which is a Tour, i.e. a Tower, but also an antenna). I don't see any solution in renaming them Eiffel or Triomphe. Instead we use the name for the 'name' and add their types (a Tower, an arch, a landmark, an antenna...) in attributes.And if one needs to list all Lakes in a given country then you have your answer: If it is on a geological basis, then he will look for attributes others than 'name'. If it is on a 'per use' basis, i.e. he wants to know which water area is called lake no matter if it is really one or not, then he will look in the name considering all possible translations. If I live next to a place called 'Hudson Bay' then I put name='Hudson Bay' even if some may argue it may not be a Bay.Consequently I don't see a real issue there.YoursLeTopographeFou De: yauge...@gmail.comEnvoyé: 5 décembre 2018 7:37 PMÀ: tagging@openstreetmap.orgRépondre à: tagging@openstreetmap.orgObjet: Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database? Martin,this is already the case. At least it should be like this, if you see places where the name tag is abused for descriptions you should fix it. I admit, it is not always possible to clearly tell which is the correct name, for some kind of things, not even in the real world.At least in OSM you can add alternative names, generically or with specific meaning (loc_name, short_name, etc.)The name tag is abused very often and systematically. Let's take at look at this spot in the centre of Parishttps://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028You can see category names displayed everywhere there, e.g. musium, hotel, school (in French).As a result when you query OSM database for some category items you have to apply algorithms for clearing category names from the name field to get just proper names.Regards,Eugeneср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 20:25, Martin Koppenhoefer :Am Mi., 5. Dez. 2018 um 16:50 Uhr schrieb Eugene Podshivalov :I invision the following solution here.* First of all, the "name" tag should containt proper name only.this is already the case. At least it should be like this, if you see places where the name tag is abused for descriptions you should fix it. I admit, it is not always possible to clearly tell which is the correct name, for some kind of things, not even in the real world.At least in OSM you can add alternative names, generically or with specific meaning (loc_name, short_name, etc.) * Secondly, introduce a new tag for the real life language specific category name. I know that "name:prefix/postfix" key was originally introduced for another purpose but it can be a candidate here as well. Note that in some languages the place of category name relative to the proper name matters.I agree this could make sense, I am doing it for places where you can eat with this tag and local values:https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/restaurant%3Atype%3Ait#valuesI would not expect it useful for any kind of things, but there are fields with cultural specialties where I agree that it would be hard to agree on detailed categories on a global level, and still it might not make sense outside of a specific cultural context anyway.Cheers,Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread OSMDoudou

> Let's take at look at this spot in the centre of Paris
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
> You can see category names displayed everywhere there, e.g. musium, hotel, 
> school (in French).
> As a result when you query OSM database for some category items you have to 
> apply algorithms for clearing
> category names from the name field to get just proper names

Not sure I understand.

Do you mean "École primaire des Quatre Fils" doesn't have a proper name ?

What would be a better name ?


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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread marc marc

Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> The name tag is abused very often and systematically.  
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028

just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does not necessarily 
mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and not "abc"

the same for the lakes.
the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called "Léman"
and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of 
the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are located, 
he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its name.
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Mapping disputed boundaries (Version 1.3)

2018-12-05 Thread Johnparis

I have just posted another revised version of my proposal on mapping
disputed boundaries.

It greatly simplifies the tagging and relation structure.

Thanks to everyone who gave public and private feedback. I've archived some
of the comments that are no longer applicable.

The proposal is here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Mapping_disputed_boundaries

John
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Martin,

> this is already the case. At least it should be like this, if you see
> places where the name tag is abused for descriptions you should fix it. I
> admit, it is not always possible to clearly tell which is the correct name,
> for some kind of things, not even in the real world.
> At least in OSM you can add alternative names, generically or with
> specific meaning (loc_name, short_name, etc.)

The name tag is abused very often and systematically. Let's take at look at
this spot in the centre of Paris
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
You can see category names displayed everywhere there, e.g. musium, hotel,
school (in French).
As a result when you query OSM database for some category items you have to
apply algorithms for clearing category names from the name field to get
just proper names.

Regards,
Eugene


ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 20:25, Martin Koppenhoefer :

>
>
> Am Mi., 5. Dez. 2018 um 16:50 Uhr schrieb Eugene Podshivalov <
> yauge...@gmail.com>:
>
>> I invision the following solution here.
>>
>> * First of all, the "name" tag should containt proper name only.
>>
>
>
> this is already the case. At least it should be like this, if you see
> places where the name tag is abused for descriptions you should fix it. I
> admit, it is not always possible to clearly tell which is the correct name,
> for some kind of things, not even in the real world.
> At least in OSM you can add alternative names, generically or with
> specific meaning (loc_name, short_name, etc.)
>
>
>
>> * Secondly, introduce a new tag for the real life language specific
>> category name. I know that "name:prefix/postfix" key was originally
>> introduced for another purpose but it can be a candidate here as well. Note
>> that in some languages the place of category name relative to the proper
>> name matters.
>>
>
>
> I agree this could make sense, I am doing it for places where you can eat
> with this tag and local values:
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/restaurant%3Atype%3Ait#values
>
> I would not expect it useful for any kind of things, but there are fields
> with cultural specialties where I agree that it would be hard to agree on
> detailed categories on a global level, and still it might not make sense
> outside of a specific cultural context anyway.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

François,
>
> This is nevertheless not related to the geospacial nor relational database
> type but it's localisation issues.

On one hand you are right, on the other hand how can you call OSM a
database if you cannot perform such simple tasks with it like getting a
list of for example lakes within a specific country? You search for
water=lake but you get results which differ a lot from what is locally
called a "lake".
Is there any approach which resolves this thing?

Regards,
Eugene

ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 20:40, François Lacombe :

> Thanks Eugene,
>
> That's a good example and I agree with you.
> This is nevertheless not related to the geospacial nor relational database
> type but it's localisation issues.
>
> Then I'm ok with you regarding name tags, it's hard to maintain at world
> scale and is often cluttered with specific local terms
>
> All the best
>
> François
>
> Le mer. 5 déc. 2018 à 18:35, Eugene Podshivalov  a
> écrit :
>
>> Hi François,
>> I guess you come from France, so let's me try to get some example
>> applicable to your location.
>> I do not know much about edicuation system in France but found out from
>> wiki that your school system consists of "ecole maternelle", "ecole
>> elementaire", "college" and "lycee".
>> How do you get all colleges in France from OSM database? amanity=college
>> tag which stands for a higher than university institution will not help you
>> here, will it? You defintely need some other tag for you local
>> categorizaiton of schools or you search by the respective word in the
>> "name" tag but the "name" tag does not always contain a category name.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Eugene
>>
>> ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 19:32, François Lacombe :
>>
>>> Hi Eugene,
>>>
>>> I don't get the link between geospatial db or not and the difficulties
>>> regarding the local side of tagging.
>>> The same issues can raise on geospatial db as well don't you ?
>>>
>>> All the best
>>>
>>> François
>>>
>>> Le mer. 5 déc. 2018 à 16:50, Eugene Podshivalov  a
>>> écrit :
>>>
 This email is a forward message of this forum topic
 https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=64704

 I guess this topic has been raised may times already but let me add to
 it.
 Right now OSM is a collection of dots and lines with some generic tags
 for rendering them on a map. They do compile into nice maps but does it
 really work when it comes to searching for objects of real life categories?
 Let's look into some examples.
 * place=city/town/village/hamlet/isolated_dwelling stand for
 settlements of some pupulation ranges. But each country has its own
 categorization of settlements which may absolutely differ from the
 suggested gradation.
 * waterway=river/stream are used for natural relatively large or small
 waterways. But the notion of river may differ from country to country and
 they may have a much wider range of categories then just these two ones.
 * amenity=school/university/college have some generic notion of
 secondary, higher and further edicution institutions. But again each
 country has it's own categorization of educational institutions and in some
 cases it even contradicts the suggested tag names, e.g. in Russia they have
 colleges as something intermediate between high school and university.

 To wrap it up it is hard to impossible to get objects of some real live
 category from OSM database in order for example to hight light them on a
 map or to list them in search results.

 There are two workarounds used right now. The first one is to bind some
 new tags to local categories e.g. school=high_school, school=college. This
 approach is very contradictary because it is recognized only locally and
 may conflict with notations in other countries.
 The second one is to put category name into "name" tag, e.g. "Liberty
 avenue", "Blue lake", "South park". This approach works pretty fine until
 you think of applying it to everything, e.g. "Manchester" would become
 "Manchester city", all shops would become "[name] shop" and will be
 rendered as such on maps or otherwise additional algorithms will need to be
 coded for rederers to decide whether to cut a category name from the
 displayed name or not for each particular country.

 I invision the following solution here.
 * First of all, the "name" tag should containt proper name only.
 * Secondly, introduce a new tag for the real life language specific
 category name. I know that "name:prefix/postfix" key was originally
 introduced for another purpose but it can be a candidate here as well. Note
 that in some languages the place of category name relative to the proper
 name matters.
 * Thirdly, in order to make the life of renderers simple, introduce one
 more tag for holding the name which can be displayed on maps as is without
 any modifications, e.g.

Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread François Lacombe

Thanks Eugene,

That's a good example and I agree with you.
This is nevertheless not related to the geospacial nor relational database
type but it's localisation issues.

Then I'm ok with you regarding name tags, it's hard to maintain at world
scale and is often cluttered with specific local terms

All the best

François

Le mer. 5 déc. 2018 à 18:35, Eugene Podshivalov  a
écrit :

> Hi François,
> I guess you come from France, so let's me try to get some example
> applicable to your location.
> I do not know much about edicuation system in France but found out from
> wiki that your school system consists of "ecole maternelle", "ecole
> elementaire", "college" and "lycee".
> How do you get all colleges in France from OSM database? amanity=college
> tag which stands for a higher than university institution will not help you
> here, will it? You defintely need some other tag for you local
> categorizaiton of schools or you search by the respective word in the
> "name" tag but the "name" tag does not always contain a category name.
>
> Regards,
> Eugene
>
> ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 19:32, François Lacombe :
>
>> Hi Eugene,
>>
>> I don't get the link between geospatial db or not and the difficulties
>> regarding the local side of tagging.
>> The same issues can raise on geospatial db as well don't you ?
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> François
>>
>> Le mer. 5 déc. 2018 à 16:50, Eugene Podshivalov  a
>> écrit :
>>
>>> This email is a forward message of this forum topic
>>> https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=64704
>>>
>>> I guess this topic has been raised may times already but let me add to
>>> it.
>>> Right now OSM is a collection of dots and lines with some generic tags
>>> for rendering them on a map. They do compile into nice maps but does it
>>> really work when it comes to searching for objects of real life categories?
>>> Let's look into some examples.
>>> * place=city/town/village/hamlet/isolated_dwelling stand for settlements
>>> of some pupulation ranges. But each country has its own categorization of
>>> settlements which may absolutely differ from the suggested gradation.
>>> * waterway=river/stream are used for natural relatively large or small
>>> waterways. But the notion of river may differ from country to country and
>>> they may have a much wider range of categories then just these two ones.
>>> * amenity=school/university/college have some generic notion of
>>> secondary, higher and further edicution institutions. But again each
>>> country has it's own categorization of educational institutions and in some
>>> cases it even contradicts the suggested tag names, e.g. in Russia they have
>>> colleges as something intermediate between high school and university.
>>>
>>> To wrap it up it is hard to impossible to get objects of some real live
>>> category from OSM database in order for example to hight light them on a
>>> map or to list them in search results.
>>>
>>> There are two workarounds used right now. The first one is to bind some
>>> new tags to local categories e.g. school=high_school, school=college. This
>>> approach is very contradictary because it is recognized only locally and
>>> may conflict with notations in other countries.
>>> The second one is to put category name into "name" tag, e.g. "Liberty
>>> avenue", "Blue lake", "South park". This approach works pretty fine until
>>> you think of applying it to everything, e.g. "Manchester" would become
>>> "Manchester city", all shops would become "[name] shop" and will be
>>> rendered as such on maps or otherwise additional algorithms will need to be
>>> coded for rederers to decide whether to cut a category name from the
>>> displayed name or not for each particular country.
>>>
>>> I invision the following solution here.
>>> * First of all, the "name" tag should containt proper name only.
>>> * Secondly, introduce a new tag for the real life language specific
>>> category name. I know that "name:prefix/postfix" key was originally
>>> introduced for another purpose but it can be a candidate here as well. Note
>>> that in some languages the place of category name relative to the proper
>>> name matters.
>>> * Thirdly, in order to make the life of renderers simple, introduce one
>>> more tag for holding the name which can be displayed on maps as is without
>>> any modifications, e.g. "display_name". This tag may contain whatever
>>> content is considered locally appropriate specifically for rendering on
>>> maps. For example, it may contain proper name with category abbriviation
>>> like "r. Missisipi" or proper name with category full name like "Liberty
>>> avenue" or if an object has no proper name but is worth being labeled like
>>> "police station". Locally agreed upon rules should prevail here and if
>>> somebody needs another format he is free to utilize "name" and
>>> "name:prefix" tags the way he likes it.
>>> If proper name is considered good for rendering without any
>>> modifications like "Manchester" city then

Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Hi François,
I guess you come from France, so let's me try to get some example
applicable to your location.
I do not know much about edicuation system in France but found out from
wiki that your school system consists of "ecole maternelle", "ecole
elementaire", "college" and "lycee".
How do you get all colleges in France from OSM database? amanity=college
tag which stands for a higher than university institution will not help you
here, will it? You defintely need some other tag for you local
categorizaiton of schools or you search by the respective word in the
"name" tag but the "name" tag does not always contain a category name.

Regards,
Eugene

ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 19:32, François Lacombe :

> Hi Eugene,
>
> I don't get the link between geospatial db or not and the difficulties
> regarding the local side of tagging.
> The same issues can raise on geospatial db as well don't you ?
>
> All the best
>
> François
>
> Le mer. 5 déc. 2018 à 16:50, Eugene Podshivalov  a
> écrit :
>
>> This email is a forward message of this forum topic
>> https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=64704
>>
>> I guess this topic has been raised may times already but let me add to it.
>> Right now OSM is a collection of dots and lines with some generic tags
>> for rendering them on a map. They do compile into nice maps but does it
>> really work when it comes to searching for objects of real life categories?
>> Let's look into some examples.
>> * place=city/town/village/hamlet/isolated_dwelling stand for settlements
>> of some pupulation ranges. But each country has its own categorization of
>> settlements which may absolutely differ from the suggested gradation.
>> * waterway=river/stream are used for natural relatively large or small
>> waterways. But the notion of river may differ from country to country and
>> they may have a much wider range of categories then just these two ones.
>> * amenity=school/university/college have some generic notion of
>> secondary, higher and further edicution institutions. But again each
>> country has it's own categorization of educational institutions and in some
>> cases it even contradicts the suggested tag names, e.g. in Russia they have
>> colleges as something intermediate between high school and university.
>>
>> To wrap it up it is hard to impossible to get objects of some real live
>> category from OSM database in order for example to hight light them on a
>> map or to list them in search results.
>>
>> There are two workarounds used right now. The first one is to bind some
>> new tags to local categories e.g. school=high_school, school=college. This
>> approach is very contradictary because it is recognized only locally and
>> may conflict with notations in other countries.
>> The second one is to put category name into "name" tag, e.g. "Liberty
>> avenue", "Blue lake", "South park". This approach works pretty fine until
>> you think of applying it to everything, e.g. "Manchester" would become
>> "Manchester city", all shops would become "[name] shop" and will be
>> rendered as such on maps or otherwise additional algorithms will need to be
>> coded for rederers to decide whether to cut a category name from the
>> displayed name or not for each particular country.
>>
>> I invision the following solution here.
>> * First of all, the "name" tag should containt proper name only.
>> * Secondly, introduce a new tag for the real life language specific
>> category name. I know that "name:prefix/postfix" key was originally
>> introduced for another purpose but it can be a candidate here as well. Note
>> that in some languages the place of category name relative to the proper
>> name matters.
>> * Thirdly, in order to make the life of renderers simple, introduce one
>> more tag for holding the name which can be displayed on maps as is without
>> any modifications, e.g. "display_name". This tag may contain whatever
>> content is considered locally appropriate specifically for rendering on
>> maps. For example, it may contain proper name with category abbriviation
>> like "r. Missisipi" or proper name with category full name like "Liberty
>> avenue" or if an object has no proper name but is worth being labeled like
>> "police station". Locally agreed upon rules should prevail here and if
>> somebody needs another format he is free to utilize "name" and
>> "name:prefix" tags the way he likes it.
>> If proper name is considered good for rendering without any modifications
>> like "Manchester" city then display_name can be missing.
>>
>> Here are a couple of collective examples:
>> * highway=residential + name:ru=Независимости + name:prefix:ru=проспект +
>> display_name:ru="пр-т Независимости"
>> * waterway=river + name:de=Elbe + name:prefix:de=Fluß (no "display_name"
>> tag becase they usually display only proper names of rivers on maps in
>> Germany)
>> * place=city + name:en=Manchester (no "display_name" tag because it is
>> equal to "name", and no "name:prefix" tag if and only if the

Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Am Mi., 5. Dez. 2018 um 16:50 Uhr schrieb Eugene Podshivalov <
yauge...@gmail.com>:

> I invision the following solution here.
>
> * First of all, the "name" tag should containt proper name only.
>


this is already the case. At least it should be like this, if you see
places where the name tag is abused for descriptions you should fix it. I
admit, it is not always possible to clearly tell which is the correct name,
for some kind of things, not even in the real world.
At least in OSM you can add alternative names, generically or with specific
meaning (loc_name, short_name, etc.)



> * Secondly, introduce a new tag for the real life language specific
> category name. I know that "name:prefix/postfix" key was originally
> introduced for another purpose but it can be a candidate here as well. Note
> that in some languages the place of category name relative to the proper
> name matters.
>


I agree this could make sense, I am doing it for places where you can eat
with this tag and local values:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/restaurant%3Atype%3Ait#values

I would not expect it useful for any kind of things, but there are fields
with cultural specialties where I agree that it would be hard to agree on
detailed categories on a global level, and still it might not make sense
outside of a specific cultural context anyway.


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread François Lacombe

Hi Eugene,

I don't get the link between geospatial db or not and the difficulties
regarding the local side of tagging.
The same issues can raise on geospatial db as well don't you ?

All the best

François

Le mer. 5 déc. 2018 à 16:50, Eugene Podshivalov  a
écrit :

> This email is a forward message of this forum topic
> https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=64704
>
> I guess this topic has been raised may times already but let me add to it.
> Right now OSM is a collection of dots and lines with some generic tags for
> rendering them on a map. They do compile into nice maps but does it really
> work when it comes to searching for objects of real life categories? Let's
> look into some examples.
> * place=city/town/village/hamlet/isolated_dwelling stand for settlements
> of some pupulation ranges. But each country has its own categorization of
> settlements which may absolutely differ from the suggested gradation.
> * waterway=river/stream are used for natural relatively large or small
> waterways. But the notion of river may differ from country to country and
> they may have a much wider range of categories then just these two ones.
> * amenity=school/university/college have some generic notion of secondary,
> higher and further edicution institutions. But again each country has it's
> own categorization of educational institutions and in some cases it even
> contradicts the suggested tag names, e.g. in Russia they have colleges as
> something intermediate between high school and university.
>
> To wrap it up it is hard to impossible to get objects of some real live
> category from OSM database in order for example to hight light them on a
> map or to list them in search results.
>
> There are two workarounds used right now. The first one is to bind some
> new tags to local categories e.g. school=high_school, school=college. This
> approach is very contradictary because it is recognized only locally and
> may conflict with notations in other countries.
> The second one is to put category name into "name" tag, e.g. "Liberty
> avenue", "Blue lake", "South park". This approach works pretty fine until
> you think of applying it to everything, e.g. "Manchester" would become
> "Manchester city", all shops would become "[name] shop" and will be
> rendered as such on maps or otherwise additional algorithms will need to be
> coded for rederers to decide whether to cut a category name from the
> displayed name or not for each particular country.
>
> I invision the following solution here.
> * First of all, the "name" tag should containt proper name only.
> * Secondly, introduce a new tag for the real life language specific
> category name. I know that "name:prefix/postfix" key was originally
> introduced for another purpose but it can be a candidate here as well. Note
> that in some languages the place of category name relative to the proper
> name matters.
> * Thirdly, in order to make the life of renderers simple, introduce one
> more tag for holding the name which can be displayed on maps as is without
> any modifications, e.g. "display_name". This tag may contain whatever
> content is considered locally appropriate specifically for rendering on
> maps. For example, it may contain proper name with category abbriviation
> like "r. Missisipi" or proper name with category full name like "Liberty
> avenue" or if an object has no proper name but is worth being labeled like
> "police station". Locally agreed upon rules should prevail here and if
> somebody needs another format he is free to utilize "name" and
> "name:prefix" tags the way he likes it.
> If proper name is considered good for rendering without any modifications
> like "Manchester" city then display_name can be missing.
>
> Here are a couple of collective examples:
> * highway=residential + name:ru=Независимости + name:prefix:ru=проспект +
> display_name:ru="пр-т Независимости"
> * waterway=river + name:de=Elbe + name:prefix:de=Fluß (no "display_name"
> tag becase they usually display only proper names of rivers on maps in
> Germany)
> * place=city + name:en=Manchester (no "display_name" tag because it is
> equal to "name", and no "name:prefix" tag if and only if the values in
> "place" tag correspond to the real life settlement categories in US)
>
> Regards,
> Eugene P
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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[Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

This email is a forward message of this forum topic
https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=64704

I guess this topic has been raised may times already but let me add to it.
Right now OSM is a collection of dots and lines with some generic tags for
rendering them on a map. They do compile into nice maps but does it really
work when it comes to searching for objects of real life categories? Let's
look into some examples.
* place=city/town/village/hamlet/isolated_dwelling stand for settlements of
some pupulation ranges. But each country has its own categorization of
settlements which may absolutely differ from the suggested gradation.
* waterway=river/stream are used for natural relatively large or small
waterways. But the notion of river may differ from country to country and
they may have a much wider range of categories then just these two ones.
* amenity=school/university/college have some generic notion of secondary,
higher and further edicution institutions. But again each country has it's
own categorization of educational institutions and in some cases it even
contradicts the suggested tag names, e.g. in Russia they have colleges as
something intermediate between high school and university.

To wrap it up it is hard to impossible to get objects of some real live
category from OSM database in order for example to hight light them on a
map or to list them in search results.

There are two workarounds used right now. The first one is to bind some new
tags to local categories e.g. school=high_school, school=college. This
approach is very contradictary because it is recognized only locally and
may conflict with notations in other countries.
The second one is to put category name into "name" tag, e.g. "Liberty
avenue", "Blue lake", "South park". This approach works pretty fine until
you think of applying it to everything, e.g. "Manchester" would become
"Manchester city", all shops would become "[name] shop" and will be
rendered as such on maps or otherwise additional algorithms will need to be
coded for rederers to decide whether to cut a category name from the
displayed name or not for each particular country.

I invision the following solution here.
* First of all, the "name" tag should containt proper name only.
* Secondly, introduce a new tag for the real life language specific
category name. I know that "name:prefix/postfix" key was originally
introduced for another purpose but it can be a candidate here as well. Note
that in some languages the place of category name relative to the proper
name matters.
* Thirdly, in order to make the life of renderers simple, introduce one
more tag for holding the name which can be displayed on maps as is without
any modifications, e.g. "display_name". This tag may contain whatever
content is considered locally appropriate specifically for rendering on
maps. For example, it may contain proper name with category abbriviation
like "r. Missisipi" or proper name with category full name like "Liberty
avenue" or if an object has no proper name but is worth being labeled like
"police station". Locally agreed upon rules should prevail here and if
somebody needs another format he is free to utilize "name" and
"name:prefix" tags the way he likes it.
If proper name is considered good for rendering without any modifications
like "Manchester" city then display_name can be missing.

Here are a couple of collective examples:
* highway=residential + name:ru=Независимости + name:prefix:ru=проспект +
display_name:ru="пр-т Независимости"
* waterway=river + name:de=Elbe + name:prefix:de=Fluß (no "display_name"
tag becase they usually display only proper names of rivers on maps in
Germany)
* place=city + name:en=Manchester (no "display_name" tag because it is
equal to "name", and no "name:prefix" tag if and only if the values in
"place" tag correspond to the real life settlement categories in US)

Regards,
Eugene P
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Re: [Tagging] Tourism=attraction: feature or secondary tag?

Am Mi., 5. Dez. 2018 um 14:32 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg <
joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>:

> Does anyone have a specific example of a place that should be tagged
> tourism=attraction but which cannot also be tagged with another feature?



do you mean, it is impossible to invent a tag for it which better describes
its nature, or that nobody has yet invented and documented such a tag?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] leisure=recreation_ground discouraged?

Am Mi., 5. Dez. 2018 um 14:48 Uhr schrieb Philip Barnes <
p...@trigpoint.me.uk>:

> Just tried in iD, landuse is pre-programmed, not leisure.
>


that doesn't mean much, as iD developers, at least in the past, ignored the
comunity decisions in more than one instance. It could be an indice to look
if this has distorted the stats though (i.e. see when it was introduced as
a preset for iD).

Looking at usage numbers, it seems correct to discourage leisure for this
tag, as it was introduced in 2009 by an import, started to grow organically
from 2011 to 2015 and is stalling since then, while landuse was introduced
pre 2008 and does not show any "import steps", and it is at more than
double the usage currently.

Still, from a systematic point of view, I would consider leisure the better
tag, if this is not meant as a property but as a feature, similar to other
comparable leisure features like pitches, stadia, swimming pools, sports
centres, most of which have usage numbers orders of magnitude higher than
recreation grounds, and which all use the leisure key.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] leisure=recreation_ground discouraged?

2018-12-05 Thread Philip Barnes

Just tried in iD, landuse is pre-programmed, not leisure.

Phil (trigpoint) 



On 5 December 2018 13:31:15 GMT, Dave F  wrote:
>Last time I looked it was a preprogrammed option in all the 3 main
>editors.
>
>On 05/12/2018 13:28, Philip Barnes wrote:
>> We normally use landuse=recreation_ground, have never come across the
>
>> leisure version.
>>
>> Phil (trigpoint)
>>
>> On 5 December 2018 12:24:05 GMT, Dave F 
>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> It appears there's an attempt to discourage/deprecate
>> leisure=recreation_ground.
>>
>>
>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Drecreation_ground
>>
>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Drecreation_ground
>>
>> I've done a history search of this forum & can find no
>discussions on
>> this topic. Can someone point me to it if it was discussed
>elsewhere* If
>> not, what is the reason for it? (Being more popular doesn't
>always make
>> it a better choice).
>>
>> To me, leisure=recreation_ground logically fits better with other
>> leisure tags such as pitch, playground, park, sports_centre etc.
>>
>> * Coherently. By that I exclude the wiki talk pages which, after
>just a
>> dozen posts, descends into unformatted insults.
>>
>> Cheers
>> DaveF
>>
>
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>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. 

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Re: [Tagging] Tourism=attraction: feature or secondary tag?