Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

& done!

Thanks again for simple, straight-forward instructions, Warin :-)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Warin]

On 18/01/19 11:33, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

Created two further pages to (hopefully!) cover all options? :-)

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmobile_home

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Shop%3Dmanufactured_home

Together with some re-wording on the main page 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcaravan


Should we include photo's on that page for examples of "caravans", 
"motorhomes" & so on, or would just the names be OK?


Photos are worth  a 1,000 words. You can take them from wikipedia.. 
there is a linking system for them.


(Incidentally, how do you insert photo's in the body of the page?)


I grabbed quite a few photos from wikipedia for the produce page IIRC

Find the photo you want to use on wikipedia ... find the detail of its 
name (right click and look there)


Then use
[[Image:crocodile.jpg|150px]] (for a crocodile .. the 150 px gives you a 
size .. adjust the number to suit.

[[Image:rubber.jpg|90px]] (for a rubber tree...


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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Created two further pages to (hopefully!) cover all options? :-)

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmobile_home

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Shop%3Dmanufactured_home

Together with some re-wording on the main page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcaravan

Should we include photo's on that page for examples of "caravans",
"motorhomes" & so on, or would just the names be OK?

(Incidentally, how do you insert photo's in the body of the page?)

That gives us 5 pages that are all cross-referenced - can anyone think of
anything else that should be covered?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Steve Doerr]

On 14/01/2019 13:23, Steve Doerr wrote:

On 13/01/2019 23:42, Warin wrote:

On 14/01/19 09:07, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:




I think the 'mobile home' is an acceptable term to cover the lot. Why 
is it unacceptable?
The emphasise on 'permanent' I think is wrong, but there is enough 
vagueness to accept that 'mobile' means mobile.


Certainly in British English, 'mobile home' has a certain connotation 
which makes it unsuitable as a catch-all term. It's virtually a 
misnomer, since mobile homes, once sited, almost never move.




I must concede that, in UK legislation, the term 'mobile home' is 
explicitly a synonym of 'caravan', which itself is defined as 'any 
structure designed or adapted for human habitation which is capable of 
being moved from one place to another (whether by being towed, or by 
being transported on a motor vehicle or trailer) and any motor vehicle 
so designed or adapted, but does not include— (a) any railway rolling 
stock which is for the time being on rails forming part of a railway 
system, or (b) any tent'.



http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1975/49/section/9

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Eliz2/8-9/62/section/29


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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Paul Allen]

On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 at 00:29, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:


> On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 22:17, Paul Allen  wrote:
>


> Paul. I'm not saying you're wrong, & yes, I'll agree that wikipedia does,
> but when you do a general search for "Types of mobile home", most of the
> results from the US, UK & Australia discuss semi-permanent or static homes
> on site eg
>

[...]

What you're saying is that "mobile home" is not generally used by the
industry as a generic
category.  And in many places, not as a specific category (or not any
more).  But we've also
established that the industry doesn't seem to have a name for the generic
category.

But what the hey, let;'s go against the literal meaning of the words, let's
>> ignore what is used in
>> practice by the industry in various countries and let's change existing
>> wiki definitions because
>> reasons.  And, while we're at it, let's change the two pertinent
>> Wikipedia pages to match our
>> alternative reality.
>>
>
> How's it put? (was mentioned again only a week or so ago but I've
> forgotten the exact wording) - in OSM, words mean their OSM definition, not
> necessarily what they mean in the real world!
>

Which means it's not unreasonable to use "mobile home" as a generic
category.  Especially
as that main tag would be accessed by editor presets for specific
categories.  Search for
caravan (or US equivalent) and the preset for shop=mobile home +
sells=caravan would be
loaded, with options to add sells=rv or whatever.

BTW, although OSM definitions don't always match real-world definitions
there is no
requirement that OSM definitions should go against real-world definitions
and many good
reasons to avoid such conflict if at all possible.

But instead you wish to take a term used by one country or another as a
specific category and
turn it into a generic category.  Or make many shop=caravan and shop=rv
tags and ignore the
problem of places that sell both caravans and RVs.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 22:17, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 08:24, Dave Swarthout 
> wrote:
>
>> I appreciate your efforts on this, Graeme, believe me.
>>
>
Thanks!


> However, seeing as motorhome and recreational_vehicle are so similar, I
>> would use motorhome as a top-level tag with RVs being a special type of
>> motorhome
>>
>
But sorry, if anything I'd swap that around with R_V at the top then
caravans & motorhomes as sub's. It's a bit hard to say which would be the
best way to go? If you search "types of R-V", you get what was mentioned
earlier : caravans, camper trailers, motorhomes, camper vans, 5th wheelers
etc. Search "types of motorhome" & its A, B, C, campervans. "Types of
caravan" = caravan, 5th wheeler, pop-top & other towed options, so RV would
appear to be the best overall term (I'll get to "mobile homes" in a moment).

But when you look at established usage in OSM, there are 82 shop=caravan,
with ~50 in Europe, 20 in US / Canada & 10 in Australia; 16 shop=motorhome
(2 US, 1 Canada, rest in Europe); 7 shop=rv in US / Canada & 3
shop=recreational_vehicles (2 US, 1 France), so shop=caravan would appear
to be the accepted option by a long way (even in the US!)

and have a separate shop=mobile_home page.
>>
>
I think this may be the best option, with a cross-reference between the two


> Mobile_home covers the odd case of the wheeled structure that is usually
>> installed semi-permanently in a trailer park
>>
>
> I won't bother giving the links again, but Wikipedia (yes, I know) uses
> "mobile home" as an
> encompassing term for trailers/touring caravans/RVs/everything that can be
> lived in and can be
> moved.
>

Paul. I'm not saying you're wrong, & yes, I'll agree that wikipedia does,
but when you do a general search for "Types of mobile home", most of the
results from the US, UK & Australia discuss semi-permanent or static homes
on site eg
https://inspectapedia.com/Design/Building_Construction_Definitions.php
https://www.lifesure.co.uk/blog/2012/05/buying-a-mobile-home-what-to-consider/
https://www.mobilehomesell.com/types-of-mobile-homes/
Interestingly "mobile home" in the US, apparently only applies to something
built before 1976 - after then, they're "manufactured homes"
There are currently only 7 uses of shop=mobile_home in OSM - 6 US & 1
Germany & only 1 =manufactured_homes, in the US

Which accords well with the meaning of the words "mobile" and "home."
>
> I'll also note that at various times, people in this thread have given
> names to types of mobile
> home that are used in various countries and that in most of those lists
> "mobile home" does
> not appear as a specific ctegory.  I'll also note that  the various
> all-encompassing terms that
> many have proposed, such as your own "motorhome" DO appear in those lists
> as specific
> types of mobile home.
>
> But what the hey, let;'s go against the literal meaning of the words,
> let's ignore what is used in
> practice by the industry in various countries and let's change existing
> wiki definitions because
> reasons.  And, while we're at it, let's change the two pertinent Wikipedia
> pages to match our
> alternative reality.
>

How's it put? (was mentioned again only a week or so ago but I've forgotten
the exact wording) - in OSM, words mean their OSM definition, not
necessarily what they mean in the real world!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 08:24, Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

> I appreciate your efforts on this, Graeme, believe me. However, seeing as
> motorhome and recreational_vehicle are so similar, I would use motorhome as
> a top-level tag with RVs being a special type of motorhome and have a
> separate shop=mobile_home page. Then all bases are covered. Mobile_home
> covers the odd case of the wheeled structure that is usually installed
> semi-permanently in a trailer park (see proposed feature for this
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Trailer_Park) or
> similar neighborhood. Note that on that page for anenity=trailer_park, they
> state: "As an amenity, this makes sense for truly mobile homes (aka
> recreational vehicles aka caravans". However, that definition should be
> changed to match our new definitions should you proceed along the path
> we're discussing. Confusion in terminology rears its ugly head on that page
> as well.  LOL
>

I won't bother giving the links again, but Wikipedia (yes, I know) uses
"mobile home" as an
encompassing term for trailers/touring caravans/RVs/everything that can be
lived in and can be
moved.  Which accords well with the meaning of the words "mobile" and
"home."

I'll also note that at various times, people in this thread have given
names to types of mobile
home that are used in various countries and that in most of those lists
"mobile home" does
not appear as a specific ctegory.  I'll also note that  the various
all-encompassing terms that
many have proposed, such as your own "motorhome" DO appear in those lists
as specific
types of mobile home.

But what the hey, let;'s go against the literal meaning of the words, let's
ignore what is used in
practice by the industry in various countries and let's change existing
wiki definitions because
reasons.  And, while we're at it, let's change the two pertinent Wikipedia
pages to match our
alternative reality.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 16. Jan 2019, at 10:41, Philip Barnes  wrote:
> 
> In British English we would use horse box for a trailer intended for carrying 
> horses.
> 
> A float is the same, used in carnivals, but it also used to be a slow 
> electric vehicle for delivering milk. I haven't seen one for years so assume 
> they are long gone.


unless we’re talking about the very rare (or not?) combined living and horse 
transportation vehicles I would expect horse transportation offtopic in this 
thread.

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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Philip Barnes]

On 16 January 2019 05:26:23 GMT, Kevin Kenny  wrote:
>Michael Patrick:
>> What's a 'Horse Float' under RVs? https://i.gifer.com/SC79.gif
>> Seriously, this term is a great example of a regional difference. In
>the U.S., it's equine dental / foot care.
>On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 8:57 PM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> In Australia a 'horse float' is a trailer to carry horses form one
>place to another pulled by a car/4WD.
>> Frequently used to carry other animals/things too. But designed for
>horses, usually equipped for  2 horses.
>
>Ah. In the US we say just, 'horse trailer.'  The only time I think we
>use 'float' in anything near that sense is 'parade float' - an
>elaborately decorated vehicle taking part in a parade, often carrying
>performers or dignitaries.
>
In British English we would use horse box for a trailer intended for carrying 
horses.

A float is the same, used in carnivals, but it also used to be a slow electric 
vehicle for delivering milk. I haven't seen one for years so assume they are 
long gone.

Phil (trigpoint) 
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Philip Barnes]

Am fairly certain that the same is true in British English.

The terms used by The Camping and Caravanning Club booking section are
5th wheel 
Camper Van
Caravan 
Caravan (twin axle) 
Motorhome
Tent
Trailer Tent

Phil (trigpoint) 

On 15 January 2019 19:49:23 GMT, Mark Wagner  wrote:
>On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 11:59:35 +
>Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 22:08, Graeme Fitzpatrick
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> > Wow, so much for me naively thinking that caravan was a universal
>> > word! Should know better by now :-)
>> >  
>> 
>> Yeah, where are the camels?  It's not a proper caravan without
>camels.
>> 
>> Have a question about searching though, which was raised previously.
>> You
>> > have a place that deals in both (self-propelled) "motorhomes" &
>also
>> > (towed) "caravans", & it's tagged as a shop=caravan, with
>> > caravan=yes & also motorhome=yes (ignoring the exact wording for
>> > the moment). 
>> 
>> If you search for motorhome, will it be found because the details
>> include
>> > motorhome=yes, or would you have to search for caravan, because
>> > it's tagged as a shop=caravan? (Sorry, I know that's badly worded
>> > but can't think of a better way of putting it)
>> >  
>> 
>> Having thought about it some more, and using shop=mobile_home as the
>> main tag (I know you
>> don't like it, but I do), then
>> mobile_home:sells=static_caravan;touring_caravan;motor_home.  Yes,
>> I just mixed UK and US terms there, but it was about the best I could
>> come up with on a first
>> attempt (no doubt we will spend weeks arguing over those).  Maybe we
>> ought to have
>> "caravan" and "static_caravan."
>
>If you use "shop=mobile_home" as the top-level tag, it'll almost never
>be tagged correctly in the United States.  In the US, a
>"shop=mobile_home" is this:
>
>https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6569665,-117.1913666,3a,75y,178.32h,84.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1su-rt9eFWO6uME-Fp1q55pw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m2!1e4!1e1
>
>not this:
>
>https://www.google.com/maps/@47.7544292,-117.3971911,3a,75y,94.69h,83.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_nrIACSV63imX4CAPXUfWg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m2!1e1!1e4
>
>-- 
>Mark
>
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Dave Swarthout]

I appreciate your efforts on this, Graeme, believe me. However, seeing as
motorhome and recreational_vehicle are so similar, I would use motorhome as
a top-level tag with RVs being a special type of motorhome and have a
separate shop=mobile_home page. Then all bases are covered. Mobile_home
covers the odd case of the wheeled structure that is usually installed
semi-permanently in a trailer park (see proposed feature for this
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Trailer_Park) or
similar neighborhood. Note that on that page for anenity=trailer_park, they
state: "As an amenity, this makes sense for truly mobile homes (aka
recreational vehicles aka caravans". However, that definition should be
changed to match our new definitions should you proceed along the path
we're discussing. Confusion in terminology rears its ugly head on that page
as well.  LOL

Also, if this split was to be adopted, how best then to differentiate a
recreational_vehicle (powered, suitable for camping, but not a large
motorhome) from the larger class of motorhomes? Good question. Maybe we
could just assume that RVs are also motorhomes and let it go at that.

On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 8:55 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> OK, so after taking in everybody's thoughts & comments (thanks! :-)), I've
> come up with:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcaravan
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Shop%3Dmotorhome
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Shop%3Drecreational_vehicle
>
> How's that?
>
> As always, all comments welcomed!
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
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Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 15:27, Kevin Kenny  wrote:

>
> Ah. In the US we say just, 'horse trailer.'  The only time I think we
> use 'float' in anything near that sense is 'parade float' - an
> elaborately decorated vehicle taking part in a parade, often carrying
> performers or dignitaries.
>

Yep, we also have the same parade floats.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Kevin Kenny]

Michael Patrick:
> What's a 'Horse Float' under RVs? https://i.gifer.com/SC79.gif
> Seriously, this term is a great example of a regional difference. In the 
> U.S., it's equine dental / foot care.
On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 8:57 PM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In Australia a 'horse float' is a trailer to carry horses form one place to 
> another pulled by a car/4WD.
> Frequently used to carry other animals/things too. But designed for horses, 
> usually equipped for  2 horses.

Ah. In the US we say just, 'horse trailer.'  The only time I think we
use 'float' in anything near that sense is 'parade float' - an
elaborately decorated vehicle taking part in a parade, often carrying
performers or dignitaries.

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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Warin]

On 16/01/19 09:34, Michael Patrick wrote:

> What started the whole thing off was me wanting to map one of these

Directly from the signs out front, and some assumptions:

# Caravan retailing 

# Used caravan retailing 

# Caravan towing service 
 

# Caravan rental 

# Leasing, hiring or renting of caravans from own stocks 

# Caravan repair or fitting out 



Courtesy of the Australian Taxation Office:
https://www.ato.gov.au/Calculators-and-tools/Business-industry-code-tool/AnzsicCoder.aspx?s=caravan

What's a 'Horse Float' under RVs? https://i.gifer.com/SC79.gif
Seriously, this term is a great example of a regional difference. In 
the U.S., it's equine dental / foot care.


:-D

In Australia a 'horse float' is a trailer to carry horses form one place 
to another pulled by a car/4WD.
Frequently used to carry other animals/things too. But designed for 
horses, usually equipped for  2 horses.
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

OK, so after taking in everybody's thoughts & comments (thanks! :-)), I've
come up with:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcaravan

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Shop%3Dmotorhome

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Shop%3Drecreational_vehicle

How's that?

As always, all comments welcomed!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15. Jan 2019, at 22:48, Kevin Kenny  wrote:
> 
> Essentially, I don't think we're going to come up with anything better
> than 'do something arbitrary, and open tickets on the four or five
> most-widely-used editors asking their maintainers for help.'


from what we have seen I would say we need more than 1 top level category for 
sure.

1. shops for mobile homes (the American / Australian type)

2 shops where you can buy new or used caravans (trailers) and rv (motorized),

2a both under the same category and subtags to tell whether they have both or 
just one of it

2b or create two distinct main categories for these

3 businesses that create custom rv / caravan / expedition vehicles (and 
eventually subtags for specialization)

4 businesses that are specialized in rental of these

somehow we should also cover repair businesses specialized in these (under the 
shop key for repair only and additionally as property to add to others, or with 
a different key like craft or amenity)


whether we go for 2a or 2b could be decided based on what is more common: 
different shops or combined shops

we could use an invented term like camping_vehicle for self propelled RV and 
camping_trailer for caravans. Would these work in AE and BE?

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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Kevin Kenny]

On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 4:08 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick
 wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 06:07, Paul Allen  wrote:
>> Actually, id (dunno about other editors) handles this by having aliases of 
>> certain terms.  Which would allow mappers to type in RV or mobile home, or 
>> caravan or anything else and get shop=whatever_we_decide.
> Yep, that's what I'm thinking about at the moment

I don't have JOSM to hand (I do my mapping at home, and I'm at work),
but I recall that some of its presets even have extra words to clarify
the meaning of terms, so that 'sac_score', for instance, has a
sentence quoted from the Wiki for each of the values. The maintainers
of editors should probably do something like that for whatever term is
chosen for RV, travel-trailer, caravan, ... because UK English doesn't
even *have* all the terms, and the terms that it does have are
understood differently in North America and Australia.

Essentially, I don't think we're going to come up with anything better
than 'do something arbitrary, and open tickets on the four or five
most-widely-used editors asking their maintainers for help.'

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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Wed, 16 Jan 2019 at 06:07, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 19:51, Mark Wagner  wrote:
>
>> If you use "shop=mobile_home" as the top-level tag, it'll almost never
>> be tagged correctly in the United States.  In the US, a
>> "shop=mobile_home" is this:
>>
>
Same thing in Australia.

What started the whole thing off was me wanting to map one of these
https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.1024313,153.42572,3a,49.8y,63.62h,81.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMvEs2ki-4pYQP_0DhUxQ9w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


> Actually, id (dunno about other editors) handles this by having aliases of
> certain terms.  Which would allow mappers to type in RV or mobile home, or
> caravan or anything else and get shop=whatever_we_decide.
>

Yep, that's what I'm thinking about at the moment

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Warin]

On 15/01/19 23:53, Georg Feddern wrote:

Am 15.01.2019 um 00:29 schrieb Dave Swarthout:


Now, if we could only get rid of tourism_caravan_site and replace it 
with tourism=campground. Sigh. That'll never happen but it should.




whoow - please do not stumble over the next misleading OSM-keys. ;-)

I think you mean tourism=camp_site, which is used for placing tents, 
caravans and/or motorhomes - as campground?.


tourism=caravan_site is the one where you (at least in Europe) only 
can stay with motorhomes (selfpropelled) - but not with caravans (towed).
But I am quite sure, that is different for the USA, Australia ore 
other 'english' countries - may be even for the Brexiters. ;-)


Language: You can use every word for every meaning - you just have to 
agree about what the meaning is. ;-)


Unfortunately the are some OSM tagged tourism=camp_site tat are not 
suitable for tents. Most of these are 'road side rest areas' with 'hard 
standing' only. Tent users are better off going elsewhere.


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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 19:51, Mark Wagner  wrote:

> If you use "shop=mobile_home" as the top-level tag, it'll almost never
> be tagged correctly in the United States.  In the US, a
> "shop=mobile_home" is this:
>

Therefore nothing suggested so far is going to work.

relocatable_residence anyone?

Actually, id (dunno about other editors) handles this by having aliases of
certain terms.  Which would allow mappers to type in RV or mobile home, or
caravan or anything else and get shop=whatever_we_decide.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Mark Wagner]

On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 11:59:35 +
Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 22:08, Graeme Fitzpatrick
>  wrote:
> 
> > Wow, so much for me naively thinking that caravan was a universal
> > word! Should know better by now :-)
> >  
> 
> Yeah, where are the camels?  It's not a proper caravan without camels.
> 
> Have a question about searching though, which was raised previously.
> You
> > have a place that deals in both (self-propelled) "motorhomes" & also
> > (towed) "caravans", & it's tagged as a shop=caravan, with
> > caravan=yes & also motorhome=yes (ignoring the exact wording for
> > the moment). 
> 
> If you search for motorhome, will it be found because the details
> include
> > motorhome=yes, or would you have to search for caravan, because
> > it's tagged as a shop=caravan? (Sorry, I know that's badly worded
> > but can't think of a better way of putting it)
> >  
> 
> Having thought about it some more, and using shop=mobile_home as the
> main tag (I know you
> don't like it, but I do), then
> mobile_home:sells=static_caravan;touring_caravan;motor_home.  Yes,
> I just mixed UK and US terms there, but it was about the best I could
> come up with on a first
> attempt (no doubt we will spend weeks arguing over those).  Maybe we
> ought to have
> "caravan" and "static_caravan."

If you use "shop=mobile_home" as the top-level tag, it'll almost never
be tagged correctly in the United States.  In the US, a
"shop=mobile_home" is this:

https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6569665,-117.1913666,3a,75y,178.32h,84.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1su-rt9eFWO6uME-Fp1q55pw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m2!1e4!1e1

not this:

https://www.google.com/maps/@47.7544292,-117.3971911,3a,75y,94.69h,83.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_nrIACSV63imX4CAPXUfWg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m2!1e1!1e4

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Georg Feddern]

Am 15.01.2019 um 14:43 schrieb Marc Gemis:

On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 1:55 PM Georg Feddern  wrote:

tourism=caravan_site is the one where you (at least in Europe) only can
stay with motorhomes (selfpropelled) - but not with caravans (towed).


but the wiki states on
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dcaravan_site
"A caravan site, caravan park or RV park is a place where people with
caravans / motorhomes / recreational vehicles can stay overnight"

only tents are not mentioned.


Yep - that is exactly, what I intended:

It is the agreed meaning in OSM, tagged with a word (language) that is 
the opposite of the real usage in some countries.
Now search as a user a place where you can rest overnight or stay some 
days with your caravan (camping trailer!) while driving through good Ol' 
Germany. ;-)


Georg

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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Marc Gemis]

On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 1:55 PM Georg Feddern  wrote:
>
> tourism=caravan_site is the one where you (at least in Europe) only can
> stay with motorhomes (selfpropelled) - but not with caravans (towed).
>

but the wiki states on
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dcaravan_site
"A caravan site, caravan park or RV park is a place where people with
caravans / motorhomes / recreational vehicles can stay overnight"

only tents are not mentioned.

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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Georg Feddern]

Am 15.01.2019 um 00:29 schrieb Dave Swarthout:


Now, if we could only get rid of tourism_caravan_site and replace it 
with tourism=campground. Sigh. That'll never happen but it should.




whoow - please do not stumble over the next misleading OSM-keys. ;-)

I think you mean tourism=camp_site, which is used for placing tents, 
caravans and/or motorhomes - as campground?.


tourism=caravan_site is the one where you (at least in Europe) only can 
stay with motorhomes (selfpropelled) - but not with caravans (towed).
But I am quite sure, that is different for the USA, Australia ore other 
'english' countries - may be even for the Brexiters. ;-)


Language: You can use every word for every meaning - you just have to 
agree about what the meaning is. ;-)


Georg

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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Marc Gemis]

On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 2:01 PM Dave Swarthout  wrote:
>
> Round and round we go and ne'er the twain shall meet.
>
> Mobile home simply will not work in this use case. Nobody camps or travels 
> from place to place in a mobile home.
>

Except when you live in Flanders, as we use "Mobilhome" for motor
homes :-) , while the Dutch use "camper"

 and "stacaravan" (roughly translated to "standing caravan") for what
you call mobil home

m.

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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Dave Swarthout]

I could live with two pages. A shop=caravan and a
shop=recreational_vehicles cross-referenced to one another. It will be
clear from the description that such recreational_vehicles contain
kitchens, bathrooms, living quarters, and are not towed while the caravan
page can specify the same but be restricted to towed, non-powered trailers.
People on both sides of the ocean will have trouble with one or the other
(both?) definitions but I don't see any other way through this semantic
stalemate.

Now, if we could only get rid of tourism_caravan_site and replace it with
tourism=campground. Sigh. That'll never happen but it should.

On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 6:14 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 08:50, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>>
>> RV may not be only American, but it's still not UK English.
>>
>
> Of course, you are correct Paul, I was forgetting for a moment that OSM is
> supposed to be British English throughout (although we all know that that's
> not really true!).
>
> Minor technicality really - main page stays as =caravan, secondary page/s
> as =recreational_vehicles etc with a description & see shop=caravan.
>
> As far as I can see, that should cover everything, shouldn't it?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 08:50, Paul Allen  wrote:

>
> RV may not be only American, but it's still not UK English.
>

Of course, you are correct Paul, I was forgetting for a moment that OSM is
supposed to be British English throughout (although we all know that that's
not really true!).

Minor technicality really - main page stays as =caravan, secondary page/s
as =recreational_vehicles etc with a description & see shop=caravan.

As far as I can see, that should cover everything, shouldn't it?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 14. Jan 2019, at 23:43, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> OK, so take it out to the full =recreational_vehicle 


I would still consider this not obvious in meaning, recreational doesn’t convey 
that it is about sleeping, cooking, ablutions etc. in the vehicle. caravan and 
the various “home”s are clearer.


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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 at 22:45, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
>
>
>>   Except, of course, that "RV" is American English.
>>
>
> True, except:
>
> https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1=hA09XPHBBcXb9QO93ZK4Bw=rv+gold+coast+australia=rv+gold+coast+australia_l=psy-ab.3..33i22i29i30l10.15091.16965..18276...0.0..0.191.1776.0j10..01..gws-wiz...0i71j0i22i30j0i22i10i30j0i8i13i30.chv6SCpJ2eE
> so it's not *only* American! :-)
>

You can put your microtome away.  Anyway, it's not meant for splitting
hairs. :p

RV may not be only American, but it's still not UK English.

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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 07:24, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 at 21:08, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> type=powered / towed;
>>
>
> Except, from the definitions I've seen, it excludes static caravans.
> Which are mobile (even if only
> moved infrequently) but are not vehicles.
>

OK, include them under type=* as either =mobile_home or =static


>   Except, of course, that "RV" is American English.
>

True, except:
https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1=hA09XPHBBcXb9QO93ZK4Bw=rv+gold+coast+australia=rv+gold+coast+australia_l=psy-ab.3..33i22i29i30l10.15091.16965..18276...0.0..0.191.1776.0j10..01..gws-wiz...0i71j0i22i30j0i22i10i30j0i8i13i30.chv6SCpJ2eE
so it's not *only* American! :-)

On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 08:23, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> I’d like to discourage use of the term rv, it is an abbreviation and I
> believe is more difficult to understand for non natives than the other
> options.
>

OK, so take it out to the full =recreational_vehicle

which, using the example above, gives
https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1=zw09XJ7xIY2f9QP2q7DACQ=recreational+vehicles+gold+coast+australia=recreationl+vehicles+gold+coast+australia_l=psy-ab.3...0.0..484369...0.0..0.0.0...0..gws-wiz.VVNuZaOLLuM
for similar, but not identical results.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

I’d like to discourage use of the term rv, it is an abbreviation and I believe 
is more difficult to understand for non natives than the other options.

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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 at 21:08, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> Been thinking about exactly that overnight!
>
> So, change this main page to shop=rv, with type=powered / towed; sells;
> parts; rental etc etc; & also "See also" of 4WD / SUV see shop=car; quad
> bikes see shop=motorbike etc
>

Except, from the definitions I've seen, it excludes static caravans.  Which
are mobile (even if only
moved infrequently) but are not vehicles.  Which is why "mobile home" is a
better generic term
than "RV" or "motor home."

3 (?) other pages: shop=motorhome; shop=caravan; shop=travel_trailer (just
> for those people who don't speak "English English"! :-)), with no details
> except "See shop=rv"
>

Except, of course, that "RV" is American English.

Would that cover all the bases?
>
> Nope.

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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 at 19:46, Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

> Americans would call them travel trailers, or camper trailers, and I would
> also categorize fifth-wheel campers as trailers, despite their sometimes
> enormous size, because they are pulled by a separate vehicle.
>

Yep, agree with you

To continue exploring that suggestion, we could create a new top-level tag,
> say shop=recreational_vehicle, or shop=rv, further characterize it using
> sells=trailed;self_propelled or some similar term, and then go on to flesh
> out the details using other sub-tags as previously suggested.
> Recreation_vehicle covers all the bases, is newer a term than caravan so
> perhaps less "loaded" with historical baggage, and would work best for the
> country within which the lion's share of such vehicles are bought and sold.
>

Been thinking about exactly that overnight!

So, change this main page to shop=rv, with type=powered / towed; sells;
parts; rental etc etc; & also "See also" of 4WD / SUV see shop=car; quad
bikes see shop=motorbike etc

3 (?) other pages: shop=motorhome; shop=caravan; shop=travel_trailer (just
for those people who don't speak "English English"! :-)), with no details
except "See shop=rv"

Would that cover all the bases?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 14. Jan 2019, at 14:16, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> In what way is a static caravan irrevocably immobile to the extent that a 
> house made of bricks is?


I’ve a counter example, never say never, 
TRANSLOCATION KAISERSAAL
https://www.sonycenter.de/en/architecture

“During World War II, the Grand Hotel Esplanade, which was once located on what 
is now the Sony Center premises, was almost totally destroyed.
After the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989, the halls that were left undestroyed 
in the building, were listed historic monuments. In order to be able to extend 
Potsdamer Strasse in width, the magnificent halls of this one-time luxury hotel 
had to be moved.

In 1996, the famous Kaisersaal went on a computer-controlled journey: The 
entire hall was moved by 75 meters in a costly and sophisticated operation.”



That was totally made of bricks.

;-)





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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Steve Doerr]

On 13/01/2019 23:42, Warin wrote:

On 14/01/19 09:07, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
Wow, so much for me naively thinking that caravan was a universal 
word! Should know better by now :-)


On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 21:58, Paul Allen > wrote:


However, there does appear to be a better term.  From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorhome
(the bold emphasis is mine):

Motorhomes are part of the much larger associated group of
*mobile homes* which includes
caravans, also known as tourers, and static caravans.

So mobile_home appears to cover it.


Not really, sorry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_home: "A *mobile home* (also 
*trailer*, *trailer home*, *house trailer*, *static caravan*, 
*residential caravan*) is a prefabricated 
structure, built in a 
factory on a permanently attached chassis before being transported to 
site (either by being towed or on a trailer). Used as permanent homes 
, or for holiday or temporary 
accommodation, they are left often permanently or semi-permanently in 
one place"




It would cover those things that slide in and out of utility vehicles 
and act as accommodation.


I think the 'mobile home' is an acceptable term to cover the lot. Why 
is it unacceptable?
The emphasise on 'permanent' I think is wrong, but there is enough 
vagueness to accept that 'mobile' means mobile.



Certainly in British English, 'mobile home' has a certain connotation 
which makes it unsuitable as a catch-all term. It's virtually a 
misnomer, since mobile homes, once sited, almost never move.


Caravan is better, as there is such a thing as a 'motor caravan' 
(normally denoting the kind that is simply a conversion of a commercial 
van design to provide temporary living accommodation while travelling, 
like the classic VW models 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Westfalia_Camper).



--

Steve



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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 at 13:01, Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

>
> Mobile home simply will not work in this use case. Nobody camps or travels
> from place to place in a mobile home.
>

Yes, it's rare for people to use a generic term when a specific term is
available.  But we're trying
to find a generic term to encompass several specific terms.

In what way is a touring caravan not mobile?  In what way is a touring
caravan not a home?

In what way is a static caravan irrevocably immobile to the extent that a
house made of bricks is?

Far worse than using "mobile home" as a generic term for touring caravans,
static caravans,
RVs, etc. (a usage documented by Wikipedia at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_home) is
using the specific term "caravan" to include RVs, trailers, touring
caravans, static caravans, etc.

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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Dave Swarthout]

Round and round we go and ne'er the twain shall meet.

Mobile home simply will not work in this use case. Nobody camps or travels
from place to place in a mobile home.

On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 7:01 PM Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 22:08, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>> Wow, so much for me naively thinking that caravan was a universal word!
>> Should know better by now :-)
>>
>
> Yeah, where are the camels?  It's not a proper caravan without camels.
>
> Have a question about searching though, which was raised previously. You
>> have a place that deals in both (self-propelled) "motorhomes" & also
>> (towed) "caravans", & it's tagged as a shop=caravan, with caravan=yes &
>> also motorhome=yes (ignoring the exact wording for the moment).
>>
>
> If you search for motorhome, will it be found because the details include
>> motorhome=yes, or would you have to search for caravan, because it's tagged
>> as a shop=caravan? (Sorry, I know that's badly worded but can't think of a
>> better way of putting it)
>>
>
> Having thought about it some more, and using shop=mobile_home as the main
> tag (I know you
> don't like it, but I do), then
> mobile_home:sells=static_caravan;touring_caravan;motor_home.  Yes,
> I just mixed UK and US terms there, but it was about the best I could come
> up with on a first
> attempt (no doubt we will spend weeks arguing over those).  Maybe we ought
> to have
> "caravan" and "static_caravan."
>
> So mobile_home appears to cover it.
>
>
> Not really, sorry
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_home: "A *mobile home* (also
> *trailer*, *trailer home*, *house trailer*, *static caravan*, *residential
> caravan*) is a prefabricated
> structure, built in a
> factory on a permanently attached chassis before being transported to site
> (either by being towed or on a trailer). Used as permanent homes
> , or for holiday or temporary
> accommodation, they are left often permanently or semi-permanently in one
> place"
>
> Nothing in that excludes touring caravans.  "Used as permanent homes *or*
> for holiday
> or temporary accommodation."  "The are left *often* permanently [,..] in
> one place."  It may imply
> that the term most commonly refers to static caravans but doesn't
> explicitly exclude RVs,
> touring caravans, etc.
>
> Also, from the second paragraph of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorhome
> "Motorhomes" are part of the much larger associated group of *mobile
> homes* which includes
> *caravans, *also known as tourers, and static caravans.
>
> Not that anyone should ever take Wikipedia as gospel for anything, but
> that accords well with
> (British) English definitions of "mobile" and "home."  You can live in it
> (home) and you can
> move it around (mobile).  "Motor home" excludes towed caravans and static
> caravans (no motor) and
> really only includes RVs and similar self-propelled vehicles.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 22:08, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> Wow, so much for me naively thinking that caravan was a universal word!
> Should know better by now :-)
>

Yeah, where are the camels?  It's not a proper caravan without camels.

Have a question about searching though, which was raised previously. You
> have a place that deals in both (self-propelled) "motorhomes" & also
> (towed) "caravans", & it's tagged as a shop=caravan, with caravan=yes &
> also motorhome=yes (ignoring the exact wording for the moment).
>

If you search for motorhome, will it be found because the details include
> motorhome=yes, or would you have to search for caravan, because it's tagged
> as a shop=caravan? (Sorry, I know that's badly worded but can't think of a
> better way of putting it)
>

Having thought about it some more, and using shop=mobile_home as the main
tag (I know you
don't like it, but I do), then
mobile_home:sells=static_caravan;touring_caravan;motor_home.  Yes,
I just mixed UK and US terms there, but it was about the best I could come
up with on a first
attempt (no doubt we will spend weeks arguing over those).  Maybe we ought
to have
"caravan" and "static_caravan."

So mobile_home appears to cover it.


Not really, sorry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_home: "A *mobile home* (also *trailer*
, *trailer home*, *house trailer*, *static caravan*, *residential caravan*)
is a prefabricated structure,
built in a factory on a permanently attached chassis before being
transported to site (either by being towed or on a trailer). Used as
permanent homes , or for holiday or
temporary accommodation, they are left often permanently or
semi-permanently in one place"

Nothing in that excludes touring caravans.  "Used as permanent homes *or*
for holiday
or temporary accommodation."  "The are left *often* permanently [,..] in
one place."  It may imply
that the term most commonly refers to static caravans but doesn't
explicitly exclude RVs,
touring caravans, etc.

Also, from the second paragraph of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorhome
"Motorhomes" are part of the much larger associated group of *mobile homes*
which includes
*caravans, *also known as tourers, and static caravans.

Not that anyone should ever take Wikipedia as gospel for anything, but that
accords well with
(British) English definitions of "mobile" and "home."  You can live in it
(home) and you can
move it around (mobile).  "Motor home" excludes towed caravans and static
caravans (no motor) and
really only includes RVs and similar self-propelled vehicles.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 14. Jan 2019, at 02:15, Kevin Kenny  wrote:
> 
> The mandate to use UK English in tags breaks down when UK English
> lacks the vocabulary!


+1, we‘ve seen this in other fields as well, e.g. the distinction of „Burg“ and 
„Schloss“ in German, which somehow translate both to castle in English (but 
find equivalent terms in other languages, e.g. some slavic languages). The 
solution in this case was using castle as the umbrella term and add subtypes 
with descriptive names to it.

I would see mobile homes (movable “houses” that usually are not moved around 
all the time, because of the effort) as a different kind of beast than 
motorhomes, RVs, caravans etc.

I believe we should be able to distinguish at least:
- whether the things are sold / rent
- selfpropelled or trailers 
- custom or standard (is it a vendor or a workshop)

I know there are also companies that offer to transform all terrain military 
trucks into expedition vehicles, and there are luxury versions at prices with 
no upper limits (think Arabian princess mobile quarters including space for 
racing horses).
Basically Yachting on land for the super rich. Just ask your favorite search 
engine for some pictures to get an idea, e.g. “luxury expedition vehicles”


Cheers, Martin 



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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Dave Swarthout]

Americans would call them travel trailers, or camper trailers, and I would
also categorize fifth-wheel campers as trailers, despite their sometimes
enormous size, because they are pulled by a separate vehicle.

Paul wrote earlier:
In the US the term RV is a blanket term covering self-propelled, trailers
and all other sub-categories

To continue exploring that suggestion, we could create a new top-level tag,
say shop=recreational_vehicle, or shop=rv, further characterize it using
sells=trailed;self_propelled or some similar term, and then go on to flesh
out the details using other sub-tags as previously suggested.
Recreation_vehicle covers all the bases, is newer a term than caravan so
perhaps less "loaded" with historical baggage, and would work best for the
country within which the lion's share of such vehicles are bought and sold.

Dave

On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 10:41 AM Tod Fitch  wrote:

>
> > On Jan 13, 2019, at 7:27 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
> >
> > So what do you call "little houses on wheels that are towed behind your
> car to stay in when you go on holidays"? :-)
> >
> > Are they just "trailers"
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Graeme
>
> “Travel trailers”.
>
> A generic plain “trailer” is probably for cargo or hauling your ATV,
> snowmobiles or “dirt bikes”.
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Tod Fitch]

> On Jan 13, 2019, at 7:27 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> So what do you call "little houses on wheels that are towed behind your car 
> to stay in when you go on holidays"? :-)
> 
> Are they just "trailers"
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Graeme

“Travel trailers”.

A generic plain “trailer” is probably for cargo or hauling your ATV, 
snowmobiles or “dirt bikes”.





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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 at 11:16, Kevin Kenny  wrote:

> Just to be a little pedantic, 'motorhome' would also fit the big
> fifth-wheel units towed behind a monstrous great pickup -
>

I would have said that a 5th-wheeler would have been put in with towed
"caravans", as it doesn't have it's own motor.


> Most Americans would not recognize that 'van' is an abbreviation of
> 'caravan' nor recognize a 'caravan' as being anything but a camel
> train or a group of marching refugees.


So what do you call "little houses on wheels that are towed behind your car
to stay in when you go on holidays"? :-)

Are they just "trailers"

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Kevin Kenny]

On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 7:54 PM Dave Swarthout  wrote:
>
> Nope, a mobile home is not the same as an RV or travel_trailer. Have a look 
> at the illustrations on the Wikipedia page. It is, as the Wikipedia 
> definition says, a prefabricated structure meant for permanent living. It has 
> wheels, hence the mobile part of its name but it's moved very infrequently, 
> sometimes only from the factory to its location inside of a, here's another 
> American term, trailer park.

In fact, it's not at all uncommon that one of these, on arrival in a
trailer park, will be jacked, lowered onto piers, and have its wheels
and axles removed. That way, it's not resting on its tyres and having
them go out of round. If it needs to be moved again, a set of axles,
brakes and wheels can be reattached.

> An aside: As I consider this thread and the problems we're having with 
> terminology I came to the realization that most countries don't have such 
> things as we do in the U.S. Some of the motorhomes you see on American 
> highways are behemoths based on a full-size bus chassis, powered by big 
> rear-mounted diesel engines. I'd be willing to bet that no other country has 
> anything even approaching the sheer size of these things. And they are quite 
> common here. And are they expensive? Yep. 100 to 200K USD and up.

And the self-propelled or fifth-wheel 'motorhome' that Dave just used
in that paragraph isn't the 'mobile home' that would be
(semi-)permanently installed in a trailer park. There are many people
who live permanently in the units that are drivable, though. Often
they take seasonal employment in construction or toourism and move the
unit a couple of times a year to where the work is. They may rent a
space in a trailer park, or at a campground, or simply set up in the
parking lot of a Wal-Mart and occasionally visit a campground to take
on water and pump out sewage. Other more wealthy individuals might own
such a behemoth to spend holidays in, and count part of its expense
against the expense of a hotel room and restaurant meals (and the
drawbacks of restaurant meals versus home-cooked ones).

> Anyway, how best to describe the plethora of such vehicles, in the U.S. 
> especially where they are so common, in one word? The term motorhome fits 
> such monsters and works for many other smaller vehicles like your garden 
> variety Winnebagos and extended van conversions but cannot describe unpowered 
> trailers or, in British vernacular, caravans.

Just to be a little pedantic, 'motorhome' would also fit the big
fifth-wheel units towed behind a monstrous great pickup - or at least
the truck-trailer combination. Once you've outfitted a pickup chassis
with the fifth wheel, the brake lines, the auxiliary transmission oil
cooler, and the electrical system, you've pretty much created a
special-purpose vehicle for towing the thing! And that's before you
get into the ones that need a diesel semi.

Most Americans would not recognize that 'van' is an abbreviation of
'caravan' nor recognize a 'caravan' as being anything but a camel
train or a group of marching refugees. And most Britons would be
puzzled that American 'van's are always self-propelled.

> Where do we go from here?

Recognize that Brittania and her colonies are sundered by a common
language, and that the crazy Yanks need some words that are never
heard in the UK - to describe vehicles that are never seen in the UK.
The mandate to use UK English in tags breaks down when UK English
lacks the vocabulary!

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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Warin]

On 14/01/19 11:52, Dave Swarthout wrote:
Nope, a mobile home is not the same as an RV or travel_trailer. Have a 
look at the illustrations on the Wikipedia page. It is, as the 
Wikipedia definition says, a prefabricated structure meant for 
permanent living. It has wheels, hence the mobile part of its name but 
it's moved very infrequently, sometimes only from the factory to its 
location inside of a, here's another American term, trailer park.


Wikipedia says
Used as permanent homes , or for 
holiday or temporary accommodation


Note the OR .. so are not just permanent homes?



An aside: As I consider this thread and the problems we're having with 
terminology I came to the realization that most countries don't have 
such things as we do in the U.S. Some of the motorhomes you see on 
American highways are behemoths based on a full-size bus chassis, 
powered by big rear-mounted diesel engines. I'd be willing to bet that 
no other country has anything even approaching the sheer size of these 
things. And they are quite common here. And are they expensive? Yep. 
100 to 200K USD and up.


Much much bigger than that. I know of one that is a tractor trailer 
(semitrailer in Australian).


Anyway, how best to describe the plethora of such vehicles, in the 
U.S. especially where they are so common, in one word? The term 
motorhome fits such monsters and works for many other smaller vehicles 
like your garden variety Winnebagos and extended van conversions but 
cannot describe unpowered trailers or, in British vernacular, caravans.


Where do we go from here?

On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 6:43 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


On 14/01/19 09:07, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

Wow, so much for me naively thinking that caravan was a universal
word! Should know better by now :-)

On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 21:58, Paul Allen mailto:pla16...@gmail.com>> wrote:

However, there does appear to be a better term.  From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorhome
(the bold emphasis is mine):

Motorhomes are part of the much larger associated group of
*mobile homes* which includes
caravans, also known as tourers, and static caravans.

So mobile_home appears to cover it.


Not really, sorry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_home: "A *mobile home* (also
*trailer*, *trailer home*, *house trailer*, *static caravan*,
*residential caravan*) is a prefabricated
structure, built in
a factory on a permanently attached chassis before being
transported to site (either by being towed or on a trailer). Used
as permanent homes , or for
holiday or temporary accommodation, they are left often
permanently or semi-permanently in one place"



It would cover those things that slide in and out of utility
vehicles and act as accommodation.

I think the 'mobile home' is an acceptable term to cover the lot.
Why is it unacceptable?
The emphasise on 'permanent' I think is wrong, but there is enough
vagueness to accept that 'mobile' means mobile.
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi]

Il giorno lun, 14/01/2019 alle 10.42 +1100, Warin ha scritto:
> On 14/01/19 09:07, Graeme Fitzpatrick
>   wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >   
> >   
> > 
> >   
> > 
> >   
> > 
> >   
> > 
> >   
> > Wow, so much for me naively thinking that
> >   caravan was a universal word! Should know
> >   better by now :-)
> >   
> > 
> >   
> > 
> >   
> >   
> > 
> >   
> > On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 21:58, Paul Allen
> >   
> >   wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > >   
> > > 
> > >   However, there does appear to be a better
> > > term.  From 
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorhome
> > > 
> > >   
> > >   (the bold emphasis is mine):
> > > 
> > >   
> > >   
> > > 
> > >   
> > >   Motorhomes are part
> > > of the much larger associated group of
> > > mobile
> > >   homes which includes
> > >   caravans, also known
> > > as tourers, and static caravans.
> > >   
> > > 
> > >   
> > >   So mobile_home appears to cover it.  
> > >   
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Not really, sorry
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_home:
> >   "A mobile
> > home (also trailer, trailer
> > home, house
> > trailer, static
> > caravan, residential
> > caravan) is
> > a prefabricatedstructure,
> > built in a factory on a permanently attached
> > chassis
> > before being transported to site (either by
> > being
> > towed or on a trailer). Used as
> > permanent homes, or
> > for holiday or temporary accommodation, they
> > are
> > left often permanently or semi-permanently in
> > one
> > place"
> > 
> > 
> >   
> >   
> > 
> >   
> > 
> >   
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> It would cover those things that slide in and out of utility
> vehicles and act as accommodation. 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the 'mobile home' is an acceptable term to cover the lot.
> Why is it unacceptable? 
> 
> The emphasise on 'permanent' I think is wrong, but there is
> enough
> vagueness to accept that 'mobile' means mobile. 
> 
>   
> 
> ___

However, since we talk about the store, they are not items that always
belong to a single market.
Better to make a distinction between movable home and wheeled home?
These terms sound good? :)


Lorenzo
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Dave Swarthout]

Nope, a mobile home is not the same as an RV or travel_trailer. Have a look
at the illustrations on the Wikipedia page. It is, as the Wikipedia
definition says, a prefabricated structure meant for permanent living. It
has wheels, hence the mobile part of its name but it's moved very
infrequently, sometimes only from the factory to its location inside of a,
here's another American term, trailer park.

An aside: As I consider this thread and the problems we're having with
terminology I came to the realization that most countries don't have such
things as we do in the U.S. Some of the motorhomes you see on American
highways are behemoths based on a full-size bus chassis, powered by big
rear-mounted diesel engines. I'd be willing to bet that no other country
has anything even approaching the sheer size of these things. And they are
quite common here. And are they expensive? Yep. 100 to 200K USD and up.

Anyway, how best to describe the plethora of such vehicles, in the U.S.
especially where they are so common, in one word? The term motorhome fits
such monsters and works for many other smaller vehicles like your garden
variety Winnebagos and extended van conversions but cannot describe
unpowered trailers or, in British vernacular, caravans.

Where do we go from here?

On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 6:43 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 14/01/19 09:07, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>
> Wow, so much for me naively thinking that caravan was a universal word!
> Should know better by now :-)
>
> On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 21:58, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>
>
>> However, there does appear to be a better term.  From
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorhome
>> (the bold emphasis is mine):
>>
>> Motorhomes are part of the much larger associated group of *mobile homes*
>> which includes
>> caravans, also known as tourers, and static caravans.
>>
>> So mobile_home appears to cover it.
>>
>
> Not really, sorry
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_home: "A *mobile home* (also
> *trailer*, *trailer home*, *house trailer*, *static caravan*, *residential
> caravan*) is a prefabricated
> structure, built in a
> factory on a permanently attached chassis before being transported to site
> (either by being towed or on a trailer). Used as permanent homes
> , or for holiday or temporary
> accommodation, they are left often permanently or semi-permanently in one
> place"
>
>
> It would cover those things that slide in and out of utility vehicles and
> act as accommodation.
>
> I think the 'mobile home' is an acceptable term to cover the lot. Why is
> it unacceptable?
> The emphasise on 'permanent' I think is wrong, but there is enough
> vagueness to accept that 'mobile' means mobile.
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>


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Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Warin]

On 14/01/19 09:07, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
Wow, so much for me naively thinking that caravan was a universal 
word! Should know better by now :-)


On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 21:58, Paul Allen > wrote:


However, there does appear to be a better term.  From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorhome
(the bold emphasis is mine):

Motorhomes are part of the much larger associated group of *mobile
homes* which includes
caravans, also known as tourers, and static caravans.

So mobile_home appears to cover it.


Not really, sorry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_home: "A *mobile home* (also 
*trailer*, *trailer home*, *house trailer*, *static caravan*, 
*residential caravan*) is a prefabricated 
structure, built in a 
factory on a permanently attached chassis before being transported to 
site (either by being towed or on a trailer). Used as permanent homes 
, or for holiday or temporary 
accommodation, they are left often permanently or semi-permanently in 
one place"




It would cover those things that slide in and out of utility vehicles 
and act as accommodation.


I think the 'mobile home' is an acceptable term to cover the lot. Why is 
it unacceptable?
The emphasise on 'permanent' I think is wrong, but there is enough 
vagueness to accept that 'mobile' means mobile.
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Wow, so much for me naively thinking that caravan was a universal word!
Should know better by now :-)

On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 21:58, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 09:10, Dave Swarthout 
> wrote:
>
>> Graeme mentioned propulsion so I assumed we were talking about what in
>> the U.S. would be called motorhomes. Maybe then two top-level tags are
>> needed, as he suggested. One for caravans or trailers, another for powered
>> motorhomes, aka RVs.
>>
>
That's starting to look like it may be the best answer.

Have a question about searching though, which was raised previously. You
have a place that deals in both (self-propelled) "motorhomes" & also
(towed) "caravans", & it's tagged as a shop=caravan, with caravan=yes &
also motorhome=yes (ignoring the exact wording for the moment).

If you search for motorhome, will it be found because the details include
motorhome=yes, or would you have to search for caravan, because it's tagged
as a shop=caravan? (Sorry, I know that's badly worded but can't think of a
better way of putting it)

There are more subdivisions than that, as I found out when I googled for a
> more inclusive term.
> In the US the term RV is a blanket term covering self-propelled, trailers
> and all other
> sub-categories
>

That may be the best overall term?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreational_vehicle "A *recreational vehicle*
 (*RV*) is a motor vehicle  or
trailer  which includes
living quarters designed for accommodation"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recreational_vehicles


> I'm unhappy with using that term because people ride motorbikes (vehicles)
> for fun (recreation) and the same applies to sand buggies, golf carts, etc.
>

To me it suggests four-wheel drives / off-roaders!


> However, there does appear to be a better term.  From
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorhome
> (the bold emphasis is mine):
>
> Motorhomes are part of the much larger associated group of *mobile homes*
> which includes
> caravans, also known as tourers, and static caravans.
>
> So mobile_home appears to cover it.
>

Not really, sorry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_home: "A *mobile home* (also *trailer*
, *trailer home*, *house trailer*, *static caravan*, *residential caravan*)
is a prefabricated structure,
built in a factory on a permanently attached chassis before being
transported to site (either by being towed or on a trailer). Used as
permanent homes , or for holiday or
temporary accommodation, they are left often permanently or
semi-permanently in one place"

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 09:10, Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

> Back to the caravan vs motorhome distinction for a moment. By the way,
> Martin's page was in regard to access, so it's not so relevant to this
> discussion except to acknowledge that the term motorhome is in existence.
> Graeme mentioned propulsion so I assumed we were talking about what in the
> U.S. would be called motorhomes. Maybe then two top-level tags are needed,
> as he suggested. One for caravans or trailers, another for powered
> motorhomes, aka RVs.
>

There are more subdivisions than that, as I found out when I googled for a
more inclusive term.
In the US the term RV is a blanket term covering self-propelled, trailers
and all other
sub-categories (such as whether there is a divider between cab and living
space - RV versus
campervan), but I'm unhappy with using that term because people ride
motorbikes (vehicles)
for fun (recreation) and the same applies to sand buggies, golf carts, etc.

However, there does appear to be a better term.  From
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorhome
(the bold emphasis is mine):

Motorhomes are part of the much larger associated group of *mobile homes*
which includes
caravans, also known as tourers, and static caravans.

So mobile_home appears to cover it.  It doesn't specify whether it's
self-propelled or a trailer
or any other variant.  It's something you can live in and it's mobile.  It
doesn't have the potential
to confuse those who are unfamiliar with the US term "RV."  Throw in
mobile_home:propulsion
and a few other subtags and it's sorted.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 13. Jan 2019, at 11:10, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> However .. any new language will evolve and diverge, so it will eventually 
> end up like English ... confused.


any language will be optimized for the context in which it evolved, so German 
would be extremely suitable for mapping in Germany, but might be less so for 
other contexts. The idea to use it in a global mapping project was not 
completely serious, sorry if it created confusion.

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Warin]

On 13/01/19 20:04, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 13. Jan 2019, at 09:51, Dave Swarthout  wrote:

I have no personal knowledge of the word caravan. To me, it makes no sense at 
all to label anything having wheels as a caravan when everyone knows a caravan 
is a string of freight-hauling camels negotiating the Sahara.


My dictionary;
A vehicle having 4 wheels pulled by a horse, traditionally inhabited by Romani 
people, circus folk, etc.
A group of merchants or others travelling together, as for safety, especially 
over deserts.

No mention of camels, yet that second definition fits there use.

I would have thought that the kiwis would stick to a strict British meaning of 
the word.




if we’ll ever do osm 2.0 it might be worth considering German as language for 
tags. Here it would be Wohnmobil and Wohnwagen and no association with camels 
whatsoever. ;-)


There are 'programming languages'. If possible I'd go for a 'mapping language' 
:)

I was rather proficient in machine language. Not practising that at all these 
days.

However .. any new language will evolve and diverge, so it will eventually end 
up like English ... confused.





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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Dave Swarthout]

Back to the caravan vs motorhome distinction for a moment. By the way,
Martin's page was in regard to access, so it's not so relevant to this
discussion except to acknowledge that the term motorhome is in existence.
Graeme mentioned propulsion so I assumed we were talking about what in the
U.S. would be called motorhomes. Maybe then two top-level tags are needed,
as he suggested. One for caravans or trailers, another for powered
motorhomes, aka RVs. The pages could be similar in tagging scheme but have
differing subtags.

Bu that seems both wasteful and will likely be confusing. We could
distinguish between the two basic varieties, motorized or trailer in some
other tag.

Dave

PS: Martin's idea about OSM v2.0. Good one, Martin!

On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 3:51 PM Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

> Warin, You're in Australia, right? When I was traveling in New Zealand I'm
> pretty sure they called small motorhomes caravans. But maybe not.
>
> I have no personal knowledge of the word caravan. To me, it makes no sense
> at all to label anything having wheels as a caravan when everyone knows a
> caravan is a string of freight-hauling camels negotiating the Sahara. I say
> that in jest but yet, here we are again getting fouled up with usages in
> different countries. We are stuck with tourism=caravan_site as well. Nobody
> in the U.S. would ever refer to a campground hosting RVs and camping
> trailers as a caravan_site or caravan_park but in OSM, of course, we must
> do just that.
>
> Anyway, my reply needn't be restricted to "caravans" or trailers. It's
> merely an idea I wanted to mention. Just now, Martin replied with a page
> about motorhomes. I'll take a look and get back to you.
>
> On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 3:36 PM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 13/01/19 19:06, Dave Swarthout wrote:
>>
>> >Possibly a separate page again for shop=motorhome? (I think that would
>> be a good coverall term?)
>>
>> I would prefer that but it's an American term. We might as well just stay
>> with caravan. Plus, I do think the tag you're proposing could, with enough
>> thought, be made to work for all types of recreational_vehicles/caravans.
>>
>> There is a difference.
>> Caravans attach to a motor vehicle for moment.
>> Motor homes/campers are self propelled.
>>
>>
>> There was a thread just a while ago on this list discussing ti-lo's solo
>> initiative to upgrade motorcycle=shop tagging. It was/is a sensible scheme
>> that integrated the functions of dealer, parts shop and accessories shop by
>> using subtags to make the distinctions. (See the Services section:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmotorcycle#Services_tags).
>> His scheme was criticized because he didn't discuss it fully enough on this
>> list but aside from that, I liked the idea. The main tag and all subtags
>> except those that already stand on their own, begin with the same keyword,
>> motorcycle, and proceed from there, adding as much detail as desired or
>> known.
>>
>> Hence, one might have
>> caravan:parts=yes
>> caravan:accessories=yes/no
>> caravan:sales=yes/no
>> caravan:type=type_a/type_b/type_c/fifth_wheel/trailer
>>
>> type?  caravan:classification=* ? classifications could be local legal
>> ones. Other things are descriptions .. and OSM has a tag for that.
>>
>> second_hand=yes/only
>> caravan:propulsion=trailer/yes/solar_powered (wishful thinking)  [also
>> gas/diesel?]
>>
>> I say again, caravans are not self propelled - they need to be pulled
>> along by something.
>> Oxford Dictionary: A vehicle equipped for living in, typically towed by
>> a car.
>> Origin Late 15th century (in caravan (sense 2)): from French caravane,
>> from Persian kārwān. The sense ‘covered horse-drawn wagon’ dates from the
>> early 19th century.
>>
>>
>> The caravan:types are well-known to anyone shopping for RVs (in America
>> for sure but Europe or Asia, I dunno) but the tag is optional. Use it for
>> fine-grained tagging, ignore it otherwise.
>>
>>
>> In the UK smaller 'back' roads are narrow - Toyota Landcrusiers are seen
>> as too wide, an American small Winabago is UK huge.
>>
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 1:01 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 13:06, Dave Swarthout 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I'm assuming that this tagging scheme is also for a shop that sells
 only caravan parts and accessories but not caravans.

>>>
>>> No, I've tried to set it up selling (dealer) as well as parts, repair &
>>> rental. Any other options you can think of, or better ways to word things?
>>>
>>>
 Also, I see you've decided not to be specific about the type or style
 of caravan sold. I would think caravan:style or caravan:class might be
 useful to distinguish between type_a, type_c, fifth-wheel, trailer, etc.

>>>
>>> Couple of people have suggested that & I've asked some questions about
>>> "how" but no feedback yet
>>>
>>> On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 at 07:54, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
>>> wrote:
>>>

 

Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Dave Swarthout]

Warin, You're in Australia, right? When I was traveling in New Zealand I'm
pretty sure they called small motorhomes caravans. But maybe not.

I have no personal knowledge of the word caravan. To me, it makes no sense
at all to label anything having wheels as a caravan when everyone knows a
caravan is a string of freight-hauling camels negotiating the Sahara. I say
that in jest but yet, here we are again getting fouled up with usages in
different countries. We are stuck with tourism=caravan_site as well. Nobody
in the U.S. would ever refer to a campground hosting RVs and camping
trailers as a caravan_site or caravan_park but in OSM, of course, we must
do just that.

Anyway, my reply needn't be restricted to "caravans" or trailers. It's
merely an idea I wanted to mention. Just now, Martin replied with a page
about motorhomes. I'll take a look and get back to you.

On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 3:36 PM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 13/01/19 19:06, Dave Swarthout wrote:
>
> >Possibly a separate page again for shop=motorhome? (I think that would be
> a good coverall term?)
>
> I would prefer that but it's an American term. We might as well just stay
> with caravan. Plus, I do think the tag you're proposing could, with enough
> thought, be made to work for all types of recreational_vehicles/caravans.
>
> There is a difference.
> Caravans attach to a motor vehicle for moment.
> Motor homes/campers are self propelled.
>
>
> There was a thread just a while ago on this list discussing ti-lo's solo
> initiative to upgrade motorcycle=shop tagging. It was/is a sensible scheme
> that integrated the functions of dealer, parts shop and accessories shop by
> using subtags to make the distinctions. (See the Services section:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmotorcycle#Services_tags).
> His scheme was criticized because he didn't discuss it fully enough on this
> list but aside from that, I liked the idea. The main tag and all subtags
> except those that already stand on their own, begin with the same keyword,
> motorcycle, and proceed from there, adding as much detail as desired or
> known.
>
> Hence, one might have
> caravan:parts=yes
> caravan:accessories=yes/no
> caravan:sales=yes/no
> caravan:type=type_a/type_b/type_c/fifth_wheel/trailer
>
> type?  caravan:classification=* ? classifications could be local legal
> ones. Other things are descriptions .. and OSM has a tag for that.
>
> second_hand=yes/only
> caravan:propulsion=trailer/yes/solar_powered (wishful thinking)  [also
> gas/diesel?]
>
> I say again, caravans are not self propelled - they need to be pulled
> along by something.
> Oxford Dictionary: A vehicle equipped for living in, typically towed by a
> car.
> Origin Late 15th century (in caravan (sense 2)): from French caravane,
> from Persian kārwān. The sense ‘covered horse-drawn wagon’ dates from the
> early 19th century.
>
>
> The caravan:types are well-known to anyone shopping for RVs (in America
> for sure but Europe or Asia, I dunno) but the tag is optional. Use it for
> fine-grained tagging, ignore it otherwise.
>
>
> In the UK smaller 'back' roads are narrow - Toyota Landcrusiers are seen
> as too wide, an American small Winabago is UK huge.
>
>
> Dave
>
> On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 1:01 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 13:06, Dave Swarthout 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm assuming that this tagging scheme is also for a shop that sells only
>>> caravan parts and accessories but not caravans.
>>>
>>
>> No, I've tried to set it up selling (dealer) as well as parts, repair &
>> rental. Any other options you can think of, or better ways to word things?
>>
>>
>>> Also, I see you've decided not to be specific about the type or style of
>>> caravan sold. I would think caravan:style or caravan:class might be useful
>>> to distinguish between type_a, type_c, fifth-wheel, trailer, etc.
>>>
>>
>> Couple of people have suggested that & I've asked some questions about
>> "how" but no feedback yet
>>
>> On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 at 07:54, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Possibly something like caravan:type=caravan / motorhome / Winnebago /
>>> camper trailer etc, but then you get to the problem of what is difference
>>> between a camper van, motorhome & Winnebago?
>>>
>>
>> motorised=yes / no?
>>
>> propulsion=towed / motorised?
>>
>> Possibly a separate page again for shop=motorhome? (I think that would be
>> a good coverall term?)
>>
>> It's also, at least in the US, very common for a dealer
>>> to sell one or the other, but not both.
>>
>>
>> But if we use a separate page, won't you have the same problem that
>> you'll only be able to find one or the other?
>>
>> As I mentioned earlier, if we had
>>
>> caravan:type=caravan / motorhome / camper_trailer
>>
>> would you be able to search for the type you want?
>>
>> So, any thoughts?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
>>
>> PS How you going using Warin's suggestion to create pages? :-)
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Dave Swarthout
> 

Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

while my dictionary also states that motorhome is an American term, we already 
have it established as access tag: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:motorhome

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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Warin]

On 13/01/19 19:06, Dave Swarthout wrote:
>Possibly a separate page again for shop=motorhome? (I think that 
would be a good coverall term?)


I would prefer that but it's an American term. We might as well just 
stay with caravan. Plus, I do think the tag you're proposing could, 
with enough thought, be made to work for all types of 
recreational_vehicles/caravans.

There is a difference.
Caravans attach to a motor vehicle for moment.
Motor homes/campers are self propelled.


There was a thread just a while ago on this list discussing ti-lo's 
solo initiative to upgrade motorcycle=shop tagging. It was/is a 
sensible scheme that integrated the functions of dealer, parts shop 
and accessories shop by using subtags to make the distinctions. (See 
the Services section: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmotorcycle#Services_tags). 
His scheme was criticized because he didn't discuss it fully enough on 
this list but aside from that, I liked the idea. The main tag and all 
subtags except those that already stand on their own, begin with the 
same keyword, motorcycle, and proceed from there, adding as much 
detail as desired or known.


Hence, one might have
caravan:parts=yes
caravan:accessories=yes/no
caravan:sales=yes/no
caravan:type=type_a/type_b/type_c/fifth_wheel/trailer
type?  caravan:classification=* ? classifications could be local legal 
ones. Other things are descriptions .. and OSM has a tag for that.

second_hand=yes/only
caravan:propulsion=trailer/yes/solar_powered (wishful thinking)  [also 
gas/diesel?]
I say again, caravans are not self propelled - they need to be pulled 
along by something.
Oxford Dictionary: A vehicle equipped for living in, typically towed by 
a car.
Origin Late 15th century (in caravan (sense 2)): from French caravane, 
from Persian kārwān. The sense ‘covered horse-drawn wagon’ dates from 
the early 19th century.


The caravan:types are well-known to anyone shopping for RVs (in 
America for sure but Europe or Asia, I dunno) but the tag is optional. 
Use it for fine-grained tagging, ignore it otherwise.


In the UK smaller 'back' roads are narrow - Toyota Landcrusiers are seen 
as too wide, an American small Winabago is UK huge.


Dave

On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 1:01 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com>> wrote:





On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 13:06, Dave Swarthout
mailto:daveswarth...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I'm assuming that this tagging scheme is also for a shop that
sells only caravan parts and accessories but not caravans.


No, I've tried to set it up selling (dealer) as well as parts,
repair & rental. Any other options you can think of, or better
ways to word things?

Also, I see you've decided not to be specific about the type
or style of caravan sold. I would think caravan:style or
caravan:class might be useful to distinguish between type_a,
type_c, fifth-wheel, trailer, etc.


Couple of people have suggested that & I've asked some questions
about "how" but no feedback yet

On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 at 07:54, Graeme Fitzpatrick
mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Possibly something like caravan:type=caravan / motorhome /
Winnebago / camper trailer etc, but then you get to the
problem of what is difference between a camper van, motorhome
& Winnebago?


motorised=yes / no?

propulsion=towed / motorised?

Possibly a separate page again for shop=motorhome? (I think that
would be a good coverall term?)

It's also, at least in the US, very common for a dealer
to sell one or the other, but not both. 



But if we use a separate page, won't you have the same problem
that you'll only be able to find one or the other?

As I mentioned earlier, if we had

caravan:type=caravan / motorhome / camper_trailer

would you be able to search for the type you want?

So, any thoughts?

Thanks

Graeme

PS How you going using Warin's suggestion to create pages? :-)



--
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com


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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Dave Swarthout]

>Possibly a separate page again for shop=motorhome? (I think that would be
a good coverall term?)

I would prefer that but it's an American term. We might as well just stay
with caravan. Plus, I do think the tag you're proposing could, with enough
thought, be made to work for all types of recreational_vehicles/caravans.

There was a thread just a while ago on this list discussing ti-lo's solo
initiative to upgrade motorcycle=shop tagging. It was/is a sensible scheme
that integrated the functions of dealer, parts shop and accessories shop by
using subtags to make the distinctions. (See the Services section:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmotorcycle#Services_tags).
His scheme was criticized because he didn't discuss it fully enough on this
list but aside from that, I liked the idea. The main tag and all subtags
except those that already stand on their own, begin with the same keyword,
motorcycle, and proceed from there, adding as much detail as desired or
known.

Hence, one might have
caravan:parts=yes
caravan:accessories=yes/no
caravan:sales=yes/no
caravan:type=type_a/type_b/type_c/fifth_wheel/trailer
second_hand=yes/only
caravan:propulsion=trailer/yes/solar_powered (wishful thinking)  [also
gas/diesel?]

The caravan:types are well-known to anyone shopping for RVs (in America for
sure but Europe or Asia, I dunno) but the tag is optional. Use it for
fine-grained tagging, ignore it otherwise.

Dave

On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 1:01 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
>
>
> On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 13:06, Dave Swarthout 
> wrote:
>
>> I'm assuming that this tagging scheme is also for a shop that sells only
>> caravan parts and accessories but not caravans.
>>
>
> No, I've tried to set it up selling (dealer) as well as parts, repair &
> rental. Any other options you can think of, or better ways to word things?
>
>
>> Also, I see you've decided not to be specific about the type or style of
>> caravan sold. I would think caravan:style or caravan:class might be useful
>> to distinguish between type_a, type_c, fifth-wheel, trailer, etc.
>>
>
> Couple of people have suggested that & I've asked some questions about
> "how" but no feedback yet
>
> On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 at 07:54, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Possibly something like caravan:type=caravan / motorhome / Winnebago /
>> camper trailer etc, but then you get to the problem of what is difference
>> between a camper van, motorhome & Winnebago?
>>
>
> motorised=yes / no?
>
> propulsion=towed / motorised?
>
> Possibly a separate page again for shop=motorhome? (I think that would be
> a good coverall term?)
>
> It's also, at least in the US, very common for a dealer
>> to sell one or the other, but not both.
>
>
> But if we use a separate page, won't you have the same problem that you'll
> only be able to find one or the other?
>
> As I mentioned earlier, if we had
>
> caravan:type=caravan / motorhome / camper_trailer
>
> would you be able to search for the type you want?
>
> So, any thoughts?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
> PS How you going using Warin's suggestion to create pages? :-)
>
>
>


-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 13:06, Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

> I'm assuming that this tagging scheme is also for a shop that sells only
> caravan parts and accessories but not caravans.
>

No, I've tried to set it up selling (dealer) as well as parts, repair &
rental. Any other options you can think of, or better ways to word things?


> Also, I see you've decided not to be specific about the type or style of
> caravan sold. I would think caravan:style or caravan:class might be useful
> to distinguish between type_a, type_c, fifth-wheel, trailer, etc.
>

Couple of people have suggested that & I've asked some questions about
"how" but no feedback yet

On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 at 07:54, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> Possibly something like caravan:type=caravan / motorhome / Winnebago /
> camper trailer etc, but then you get to the problem of what is difference
> between a camper van, motorhome & Winnebago?
>

motorised=yes / no?

propulsion=towed / motorised?

Possibly a separate page again for shop=motorhome? (I think that would be a
good coverall term?)

It's also, at least in the US, very common for a dealer
> to sell one or the other, but not both.


But if we use a separate page, won't you have the same problem that you'll
only be able to find one or the other?

As I mentioned earlier, if we had

caravan:type=caravan / motorhome / camper_trailer

would you be able to search for the type you want?

So, any thoughts?

Thanks

Graeme

PS How you going using Warin's suggestion to create pages? :-)
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 12:13, Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi 
wrote:

>
> Ok, so I don't know why but I just added the type=value parameter to
> the ValueDescription template and it looks good now.
>

That's got it! (but no idea of what that actually means! :-))


Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Thanks

Graeme


On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 12:13, Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi 
wrote:

> Il giorno dom, 13/01/2019 alle 11.26 +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick ha
> scritto:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 09:44, Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi <
> > lomastr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Language links come from the shop=* page, probably because the page
> > > name is wrong :)
> > > Please use the Move action under More and enter the name
> > > "Tag:shop=caravan".
> >
> > Thanks Lorenzo!
> >
> > Done, so page is now at
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcaravan,
> > but
> > > > > Languages - how do I edit them all out?
> >
> > all the other languages are still listed?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Graeme
> >
>
> Ok, so I don't know why but I just added the type=value parameter to
> the ValueDescription template and it looks good now.
>
>
>
> Lorenzo
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Dave Swarthout]

I'm assuming that this tagging scheme is also for a shop that sells only
caravan parts and accessories but not caravans. There are any such shops
scattered around the U.S. Also, I see you've decided not to be specific
about the type or style of caravan sold. I would think caravan:style or
caravan:class might be useful to distinguish between type_a, type_c,
fifth-wheel, trailer, etc.  I think I saw some comments earlier in this
thread about class.

On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 9:13 AM Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi 
wrote:

> Il giorno dom, 13/01/2019 alle 11.26 +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick ha
> scritto:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 09:44, Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi <
> > lomastr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Language links come from the shop=* page, probably because the page
> > > name is wrong :)
> > > Please use the Move action under More and enter the name
> > > "Tag:shop=caravan".
> >
> > Thanks Lorenzo!
> >
> > Done, so page is now at
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcaravan,
> > but
> > > > > Languages - how do I edit them all out?
> >
> > all the other languages are still listed?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Graeme
> >
>
> Ok, so I don't know why but I just added the type=value parameter to
> the ValueDescription template and it looks good now.
>
>
>
> Lorenzo
>
>
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-- 
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Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi]

Il giorno dom, 13/01/2019 alle 11.26 +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick ha
scritto:
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 09:44, Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi <
> lomastr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Language links come from the shop=* page, probably because the page
> > name is wrong :)
> > Please use the Move action under More and enter the name
> > "Tag:shop=caravan".
> 
> Thanks Lorenzo!
> 
> Done, so page is now at 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcaravan, 
> but 
> > > > Languages - how do I edit them all out?
> 
> all the other languages are still listed?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Graeme
> 

Ok, so I don't know why but I just added the type=value parameter to
the ValueDescription template and it looks good now.



Lorenzo


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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 13 Jan 2019 at 09:44, Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi 
wrote:

>
> Language links come from the shop=* page, probably because the page
> name is wrong :)
> Please use the Move action under More and enter the name
> "Tag:shop=caravan".
>

Thanks Lorenzo!

Done, so page is now at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcaravan,
but

> > > Languages - how do I edit them all out?
>
all the other languages are still listed?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Lorenzo Mastrogiacomi]

Il giorno mar, 08/01/2019 alle 07.54 +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick ha
scritto:
> 
> > Languages - how do I edit them all out?
> > 
> 
> Still have to get rid of all the language options though & can't see
> any way of doing that? 
> 


Language links come from the shop=* page, probably because the page
name is wrong :)
Please use the Move action under More and enter the name
"Tag:shop=caravan".

See here for page naming:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Wiki_organisation#Pages_naming_convention


Lorenzo


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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 16:17, Mark Wagner  wrote:

> On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 07:54:00 +1000
> Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
>
> > Possibly something like caravan:type=caravan / motorhome / Winnebago /
> > camper trailer etc, but then you get to the problem of what is
> > difference between a camper van, motorhome & Winnebago?
>
> In the (US) industry, the terminology for self-propelled RVs is "Class
> A", "Class B", and "Class C":
>

Here in Australia, we don't (TTBMK) have those classes, & motorhome &
camper van are pretty interchangeable

https://www.discovery-campervans.com.au/differences.php

Motorhome - A motor vehicle built on a truck or bus chassis and designed to
serve as self-contained living quarters for recreational travel. There is
normally a divide between the cab and the living quarters behind, which
contain sleeping space, ablution and kitchen facilities.

Campervan - a van equipped as a self-contained travelling home, they are
normally smaller than a motorhome. There is generally no divide between the
cab and the living quarters. It has basic facilities for cooking, washing,
and sleeping.

Winnebago - Although a brand name for an American manufacturer of
RV's,because the brand is so popular it has become interchangeable with RV
and therefore is often used to refer to any recreational vehicle.

>
> On the non-self-propelled side of things, the split is (roughly) "Fifth
> wheel", "travel trailer", and "popup".
>

 Caravan - a mobile home or trailer, fully equipped with household
accessories and towed behind a vehicle. It is designed to be occupied as a
house would and depending on its size contains sleeping quarters, ablution
facilities and cooking facilities.

Camper Trailer - This is a trailer equipped for occupancy that is towed
behind a wheeled vehicle. Much smaller than a caravan, it normally consists
of a tent that folds out of the trailer, where other essential living items
are also packed, and facilities such as sinks and cookers are kept. A lot
of its appeal lies in its compactness and light weight.

with further split down to fixed or pop-top caravans, hard- & soft-floor
camper trailers & so on. Yes, there are also 5th wheelers, but that only
refers to the way it's connected to the tow vehicle, not the "type" of van
ie it's just a normal caravan

> The self-propelled/non-self-propelled split is important enough to be
> worth tagging.


Yes, you (& Georg earlier) are probably right there.

motorised=yes / no?

propulsion=towed / motorised?

Possibly a separate page again for shop=motorhome? (I think that would be a
good coverall term?)

It's also, at least in the US, very common for a dealer
> to sell one or the other, but not both.


But if we use a separate page, won't you have the same problem that you'll
only be able to find one or the other?

As I mentioned earlier, if we had

caravan:type=caravan / motorhome / camper_trailer

would you be able to search for the type you want?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Mark Wagner]

On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 07:54:00 +1000
Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:

> Possibly something like caravan:type=caravan / motorhome / Winnebago /
> camper trailer etc, but then you get to the problem of what is
> difference between a camper van, motorhome & Winnebago?

In the (US) industry, the terminology for self-propelled RVs is "Class
A", "Class B", and "Class C":

Class A: An integrated unit with the driving area being part of the
living area, usually built on a custom or bus chassis.  I think this
corresponds to your "Winnebago".

Class B: Sometimes referred to as a "van conversion", this, as the
name implies, usually uses a full-sized van as the starting point for
construction. I think this corresponds to your "camper van".

Class C: Built on a truck chassis with little or no connection between
the driving and living areas.  I think this corresponds to your
"motorhome".

On the non-self-propelled side of things, the split is (roughly) "Fifth
wheel", "travel trailer", and "popup".

Fifth wheel: Connects to the tow vehicle via a fifth-wheel hitch.
Usually the largest and heaviest trailers.

Travel trailer: A hard-sided trailer that connects to the tow vehicle by
a ball hitch.

Popup: A collapsible, usually soft-sided trailer that connects to the
tow vehicle by a ball hitch.

The self-propelled/non-self-propelled split is important enough to be
worth tagging.  It's also, at least in the US, very common for a dealer
to sell one or the other, but not both.  On the other hand, it's very
common for a dealer to sell both Class A and Class C units, or both
fifth-wheels and travel trailers.

-- 
Mark

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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Warin]

I find using my own editor reduces the 'going back and forwards" on the 
new page.
And I am more comfortable using it and storing it while I think on it 
before creating the new page.
In general a couple of days between thought, creation and eventual 
creation is of benefit to my 'work'.




On 08/01/19 09:42, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

Thanks Paul, I'll try that "next" time!

Thanks

Graeme


On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 at 08:24, Paul Allen > wrote:



That's the LONG way around. :)



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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Thanks Paul, I'll try that "next" time!

Thanks

Graeme


On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 at 08:24, Paul Allen  wrote:

>
> That's the LONG way around. :)
>
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 21:55, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> As Warin suggested, I just went to shop=car, "Edit source", copied the
> entire page, pasted it as a new text document (I use Open Office but I'd
> think any "Word" program would work), made the necessary changes of
> changing car to caravan etc, searched shop=caravan in the OSM wiki with
> nothing found, created the new page, copy / pasted my document, preview,
> save & done! (Apart from going back in a dozen times to tweak things!)
>

That's the LONG way around. :)

Edit source on shop=car.  Copy the entire page into the paste buffer.
Create the new page.  Paste
the paste buffer into it.  No need for an intermediate Word document.  In
fact, that way you don't risk
Word doing "clever" things behind your back like "fixing" apostrophes to be
what it thinks you should
be using (it's sometimes wrong even in plain English, and with wiki markup
it can be a disaster).

OK, the Word document gives you search and replace whereas with a browser
you just have search
and have to do the rest manually. but that way you don't have to take extra
care that your global
search/replace hasn't left you with a "caravane" where you should have had
"care."


> *Very* straight forward & simple! :-)
>

It can be even simpler.  For some values of "simple." :)

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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 at 07:12, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> "sells" would be a tag I would use to describe what a shop sells.
>
> "service" is a tag used to describe "highway=service".
> Should it be used with other things? Or is there some other word OSM can
> use here?
>

Good question!

I just copied what was already shown under the =car page, but used the
original version, rather than the
car:sales =yes/no/used
car:rental =yes/no
option, which is currently the subject of discussion!

Maybe that would be a better way to go?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 17:20, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> & here we go: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Shop%3Dcaravan :-)
>

Most of the problems have been sorted by a little bit of playing, plus an
extra couple of fields added.

Languages - how do I edit them all out?
>

Still have to get rid of all the language options though & can't see any
way of doing that?

On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 20:43, Dave Swarthout  wrote:

> I read through the documentation for Templates
>

Dave

I wouldn't worry or stress too much about the word "template"

As Warin suggested, I just went to shop=car, "Edit source", copied the
entire page, pasted it as a new text document (I use Open Office but I'd
think any "Word" program would work), made the necessary changes of
changing car to caravan etc, searched shop=caravan in the OSM wiki with
nothing found, created the new page, copy / pasted my document, preview,
save & done! (Apart from going back in a dozen times to tweak things!)

*Very* straight forward & simple! :-)

On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 21:21, Georg Feddern  wrote:

>
> May be not necessary to RFC & vote - but I think to discuss (may be I
> missed that part already?)
>

I recently asked how to tag a caravan dealer & someone suggested
shop=caravan as it was already in use. I then created this page to give a
reference for people to find.


> You intend to summarize up caravans, motorhomes and tents.
> But I mostly know of 'specialised' shops:
> - motorhomes only
> - caravans only
> - tents only
>
> (OK, I also know some 'supermarkets' with combinations.)
>
> At least I want to find the right dealer for me (e.g. motorhome), so it
> would be necessary to distuingish them.
> Because there are mixed shops and all fall under caravaning, I suppose a
> subkey would be necessary - but yet I did not found a useful one or know
> a possible new one.
>

Um? Yes, I put them all together because I thought they all "sort of" fit
together, but I can see your point.

Possibly something like caravan:type=caravan / motorhome / Winnebago /
camper trailer etc, but then you get to the problem of what is difference
between a camper van, motorhome & Winnebago?
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Warin]

On 07/01/19 22:19, Georg Feddern wrote:

Am 07.01.2019 um 08:20 schrieb Graeme Fitzpatrick:

& here we go: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Shop%3Dcaravan :-)

Seeing that apparently it's already been used 130 odd times, can I 
take that we don't actually have to RFC & vote on it?


May be not necessary to RFC & vote - but I think to discuss (may be I 
missed that part already?)


You intend to summarize up caravans, motorhomes and tents.
But I mostly know of 'specialised' shops:
- motorhomes only
- caravans only
- tents only

(OK, I also know some 'supermarkets' with combinations.)

At least I want to find the right dealer for me (e.g. motorhome), so 
it would be necessary to distuingish them.
Because there are mixed shops and all fall under caravaning, I suppose 
a subkey would be necessary - but yet I did not found a useful one or 
know a possible new one.


Any ideas?


Depends on the local use.
A caravan shop in one area of the world could be expected to only do 
caravans. In another part of the world to do both caravans and motor 
homes. In another part of the world tents etc.


"sells" would be a tag I would use to describe what a shop sells.

"service" is a tag used to describe "highway=service".
Should it be used with other things? Or is there some other word OSM can 
use here?






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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Warin]

Sorry for using a word that triggers some usage I had not intended. Keep 
asking as it does help explain things.


On 07/01/19 21:41, Dave Swarthout wrote:

Warin -
I read through the documentation for Templates and the way it's used 
in Mediawiki applications like our Wiki is to define a piece of text, 
with or without photos, etc., as a reusable fragment that can be 
inserted in any page and if the original, the "template", is edited 
the changes propagate to all instances of the template in as many 
places as it appears. It's sort of like what used to be known as 
"boilerplate" in word-processors except its content is dynamic.


Thanks for your clarification though. It motivated me to learn a bit 
more about the Wiki s/w I constantly complain about. LOL


On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 3:32 PM Marc Gemis > wrote:


Graeme,

You might have to change the picture and the rendering icon in the
right "summary" bar.

On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 8:22 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick
mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> & here we go: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Shop%3Dcaravan :-)
>
> Known problems
>
> Languages - how do I edit them all out?
>
> service=parts has moved one box too far across
>
> Have to change the photo & (suggested) icon
>
> Wikidata reference
>
> Any & all other comments welcome!
>
> Seeing that apparently it's already been used 130 odd times, can
I take that we don't actually have to RFC & vote on it?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
> On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 17:06, Graeme Fitzpatrick
mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 11:12, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>>>
>>> This is what I do .. it works and leaves the original page
alone...
>>>
>>> 1) get the "car" template
>>> On the page you want to copy Click on "edit Source" - Copy all
of it and paste it over to your your word processor as a new document.
>>>  Exit out out this "Edit Source" without saving "cancel" I
think is it - so it stays the same.
>>>
>>> 2) edit the template
>>> Now in your word processor find and replace all the "car" and
replace with "caravan". Perform similar edits here - much easier
than the editor you may not be familiar with on the wiki.
>>> When your finished here ...
>>>
>>>
>>> 3) create the new page
>>> Type the title of the page you want to create in the wiki
search box ...
>>> It will come up with a suggestion to create the page you want
.. click on that and you have started to create the new page :)
>>> Copy all of the stuff you have on your word processor page
over to the new page (copy and paste) .. and save it ... Done.
>>
>>
>> Warin, that is fantastic! :-)
>>
>> Now you just have to write a page titled Creating pages, so
everybody can find it!
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
>
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Georg Feddern]

Am 07.01.2019 um 08:20 schrieb Graeme Fitzpatrick:

& here we go: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Shop%3Dcaravan :-)

Seeing that apparently it's already been used 130 odd times, can I 
take that we don't actually have to RFC & vote on it?


May be not necessary to RFC & vote - but I think to discuss (may be I 
missed that part already?)


You intend to summarize up caravans, motorhomes and tents.
But I mostly know of 'specialised' shops:
- motorhomes only
- caravans only
- tents only

(OK, I also know some 'supermarkets' with combinations.)

At least I want to find the right dealer for me (e.g. motorhome), so it 
would be necessary to distuingish them.
Because there are mixed shops and all fall under caravaning, I suppose a 
subkey would be necessary - but yet I did not found a useful one or know 
a possible new one.


Any ideas?

Regards
Georg

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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Dave Swarthout]

Warin -
I read through the documentation for Templates and the way it's used in
Mediawiki applications like our Wiki is to define a piece of text, with or
without photos, etc., as a reusable fragment that can be inserted in any
page and if the original, the "template", is edited the changes propagate
to all instances of the template in as many places as it appears. It's sort
of like what used to be known as "boilerplate" in word-processors except
its content is dynamic.

Thanks for your clarification though. It motivated me to learn a bit more
about the Wiki s/w I constantly complain about. LOL

On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 3:32 PM Marc Gemis  wrote:

> Graeme,
>
> You might have to change the picture and the rendering icon in the
> right "summary" bar.
>
> On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 8:22 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
> >
> > & here we go: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Shop%3Dcaravan :-)
> >
> > Known problems
> >
> > Languages - how do I edit them all out?
> >
> > service=parts has moved one box too far across
> >
> > Have to change the photo & (suggested) icon
> >
> > Wikidata reference
> >
> > Any & all other comments welcome!
> >
> > Seeing that apparently it's already been used 130 odd times, can I take
> that we don't actually have to RFC & vote on it?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Graeme
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 17:06, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 11:12, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> This is what I do .. it works and leaves the original page alone...
> >>>
> >>> 1) get the "car" template
> >>> On the page you want to copy Click on "edit Source" - Copy all of it
> and paste it over to your your word processor as a new document.
> >>>  Exit out out this "Edit Source" without saving "cancel" I think is it
> - so it stays the same.
> >>>
> >>> 2) edit the template
> >>> Now in your word processor find and replace all the "car" and replace
> with "caravan". Perform similar edits here - much easier than the editor
> you may not be familiar with on the wiki.
> >>> When your finished here ...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 3) create the new page
> >>> Type the title of the page you want to create in the wiki search box
> ...
> >>> It will come up with a suggestion to create the page you want .. click
> on that and you have started to create the new page :)
> >>> Copy all of the stuff you have on your word processor page over to the
> new page (copy and paste) .. and save it ... Done.
> >>
> >>
> >> Warin, that is fantastic! :-)
> >>
> >> Now you just have to write a page titled Creating pages, so everybody
> can find it!
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >>
> >> Graeme
> >
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Marc Gemis]

Graeme,

You might have to change the picture and the rendering icon in the
right "summary" bar.

On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 8:22 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
>
> & here we go: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Shop%3Dcaravan :-)
>
> Known problems
>
> Languages - how do I edit them all out?
>
> service=parts has moved one box too far across
>
> Have to change the photo & (suggested) icon
>
> Wikidata reference
>
> Any & all other comments welcome!
>
> Seeing that apparently it's already been used 130 odd times, can I take that 
> we don't actually have to RFC & vote on it?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
> On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 17:06, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 11:12, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> This is what I do .. it works and leaves the original page alone...
>>>
>>> 1) get the "car" template
>>> On the page you want to copy Click on "edit Source" - Copy all of it and 
>>> paste it over to your your word processor as a new document.
>>>  Exit out out this "Edit Source" without saving "cancel" I think is it - so 
>>> it stays the same.
>>>
>>> 2) edit the template
>>> Now in your word processor find and replace all the "car" and replace with 
>>> "caravan". Perform similar edits here - much easier than the editor you may 
>>> not be familiar with on the wiki.
>>> When your finished here ...
>>>
>>>
>>> 3) create the new page
>>> Type the title of the page you want to create in the wiki search box ...
>>> It will come up with a suggestion to create the page you want .. click on 
>>> that and you have started to create the new page :)
>>> Copy all of the stuff you have on your word processor page over to the new 
>>> page (copy and paste) .. and save it ... Done.
>>
>>
>> Warin, that is fantastic! :-)
>>
>> Now you just have to write a page titled Creating pages, so everybody can 
>> find it!
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
>
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

& here we go: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Shop%3Dcaravan :-)

Known problems

Languages - how do I edit them all out?

service=parts has moved one box too far across

Have to change the photo & (suggested) icon

Wikidata reference

Any & all other comments welcome!

Seeing that apparently it's already been used 130 odd times, can I take
that we don't actually have to RFC & vote on it?

Thanks

Graeme


On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 17:06, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 11:12, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> This is what I do .. it works and leaves the original page alone...
>>
>> 1) get the "car" template
>> On the page you want to copy Click on "edit Source" - Copy all of it and
>> paste it over to your your word processor as a new document.
>>  Exit out out this "Edit Source" without saving "cancel" I think is it -
>> so it stays the same.
>>
>> 2) edit the template
>> Now in your word processor find and replace all the "car" and replace
>> with "caravan". Perform similar edits here - much easier than the editor
>> you may not be familiar with on the wiki.
>> When your finished here ...
>>
>>
>> 3) create the new page
>> Type the title of the page you want to create in the wiki search box ...
>> It will come up with a suggestion to create the page you want .. click on
>> that and you have started to create the new page :)
>> Copy all of the stuff you have on your word processor page over to the
>> new page (copy and paste) .. and save it ... Done.
>>
>
> Warin, that is fantastic! :-)
>
> Now you just have to write a page titled Creating pages, so everybody can
> find it!
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Warin]

Errg .. so much trouble with words :-(

In the example the "car" page is used as a 'prototype', a 'sample', a 
'template' for the new page of "caravan".


You could chose another page to act as your 'prototype'.
I used "basketball" as a 'prototype' for "netball" as they are similar 
sports for example.


The 'editing' is only done for the new page, using your own editor as 
you are probably more familiar with it.


Once saved the new page is just another page.

Sorry if that gets confused with other "templates"..

That help Dave?

On 07/01/19 17:05, Dave Swarthout wrote:

@Warin
Can you illustrate or explain the differences between editing a  
"template" and editing a simple page? When you save your edited 
version of the new page does it become a template?


On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 8:12 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


This is what I do .. it works and leaves the original page alone...

1) get the "car" template
On the page you want to copy Click on "edit Source" - Copy all of
it and paste it over to your your word processor as a new document.
 Exit out out this "Edit Source" without saving "cancel" I think
is it - so it stays the same.

2) edit the template
Now in your word processor find and replace all the "car" and
replace with "caravan". Perform similar edits here - much easier
than the editor you may not be familiar with on the wiki.
When your finished here ...


3) create the new page
Type the title of the page you want to create in the wiki search
box ...
It will come up with a suggestion to create the page you want ..
click on that and you have started to create the new page :)
Copy all of the stuff you have on your word processor page over to
the new page (copy and paste) .. and save it ... Done.

On 07/01/19 11:23, Dave Swarthout wrote:

Haha, Graeme. I am in the same boat when it comes to adding
anything to the Wiki. Welcome to the arcane world of Wiki
editing. I don't have an answer to your question. I only want to
sympathize.

Dave



On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 5:35 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick
mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Recently asked what to tag some things as, including a
business selling caravans.

On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 at 02:37, Philip Barnes
mailto:p...@trigpoint.me.uk>> wrote:

On Fri, 2018-12-28 at 16:36 +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:


& yards dedicated to caravan sales? I can find shop=car
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop=car, which
says it's a place that sells cars, buses or trucks.
Perhaps shop=caravan?



Shop=caravan has over 100 uses, so why not?


With fear & trepidation :-) I am about to try & create a page
shop=caravan, then put it up for further discussion.

I know this has been discussed before, but I'm still unclear
on the details (& from previous discussions, a lot of other
people are as well :-()

The page would be fairly similar to shop=car
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcar, so that
sounds like a good basis to start with.

If I just open that page, "Edit source", change value=car to
value=caravan, then save that, I'm fairly sure that will
create a shop=caravan page ready for further editing, but
will the original shop=car page still exist?

Is there a better way to create a new page?




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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 11:12, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> This is what I do .. it works and leaves the original page alone...
>
> 1) get the "car" template
> On the page you want to copy Click on "edit Source" - Copy all of it and
> paste it over to your your word processor as a new document.
>  Exit out out this "Edit Source" without saving "cancel" I think is it -
> so it stays the same.
>
> 2) edit the template
> Now in your word processor find and replace all the "car" and replace with
> "caravan". Perform similar edits here - much easier than the editor you may
> not be familiar with on the wiki.
> When your finished here ...
>
>
> 3) create the new page
> Type the title of the page you want to create in the wiki search box ...
> It will come up with a suggestion to create the page you want .. click on
> that and you have started to create the new page :)
> Copy all of the stuff you have on your word processor page over to the new
> page (copy and paste) .. and save it ... Done.
>

Warin, that is fantastic! :-)

Now you just have to write a page titled Creating pages, so everybody can
find it!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Dave Swarthout]

@Warin
Can you illustrate or explain the differences between editing a  "template"
and editing a simple page? When you save your edited version of the new
page does it become a template?

On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 8:12 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> This is what I do .. it works and leaves the original page alone...
>
> 1) get the "car" template
> On the page you want to copy Click on "edit Source" - Copy all of it and
> paste it over to your your word processor as a new document.
>  Exit out out this "Edit Source" without saving "cancel" I think is it -
> so it stays the same.
>
> 2) edit the template
> Now in your word processor find and replace all the "car" and replace with
> "caravan". Perform similar edits here - much easier than the editor you may
> not be familiar with on the wiki.
> When your finished here ...
>
>
> 3) create the new page
> Type the title of the page you want to create in the wiki search box ...
> It will come up with a suggestion to create the page you want .. click on
> that and you have started to create the new page :)
> Copy all of the stuff you have on your word processor page over to the new
> page (copy and paste) .. and save it ... Done.
>
> On 07/01/19 11:23, Dave Swarthout wrote:
>
> Haha, Graeme. I am in the same boat when it comes to adding anything to
> the Wiki. Welcome to the arcane world of Wiki editing. I don't have an
> answer to your question. I only want to sympathize.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 5:35 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>> Recently asked what to tag some things as, including a business selling
>> caravans.
>>
>> On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 at 02:37, Philip Barnes  wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 2018-12-28 at 16:36 +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> & yards dedicated to caravan sales? I can find shop=car
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop=car, which says it's a
>>> place that sells cars, buses or trucks. Perhaps shop=caravan?
>>>
>>>
>>> Shop=caravan has over 100 uses, so why not?
>>>
>>
>> With fear & trepidation :-) I am about to try & create a page
>> shop=caravan, then put it up for further discussion.
>>
>> I know this has been discussed before, but I'm still unclear on the
>> details (& from previous discussions, a lot of other people are as well :-()
>>
>> The page would be fairly similar to shop=car
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcar, so that sounds like
>> a good basis to start with.
>>
>> If I just open that page, "Edit source", change value=car to
>> value=caravan, then save that, I'm fairly sure that will create a
>> shop=caravan page ready for further editing, but will the original shop=car
>> page still exist?
>>
>> Is there a better way to create a new page?
>>
>>
>
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>


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Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Warin]

This is what I do .. it works and leaves the original page alone...

1) get the "car" template
On the page you want to copy Click on "edit Source" - Copy all of it and 
paste it over to your your word processor as a new document.
 Exit out out this "Edit Source" without saving "cancel" I think is it 
- so it stays the same.


2) edit the template
Now in your word processor find and replace all the "car" and replace 
with "caravan". Perform similar edits here - much easier than the editor 
you may not be familiar with on the wiki.

When your finished here ...


3) create the new page
Type the title of the page you want to create in the wiki search box ...
It will come up with a suggestion to create the page you want .. click 
on that and you have started to create the new page :)
Copy all of the stuff you have on your word processor page over to the 
new page (copy and paste) .. and save it ... Done.


On 07/01/19 11:23, Dave Swarthout wrote:
Haha, Graeme. I am in the same boat when it comes to adding anything 
to the Wiki. Welcome to the arcane world of Wiki editing. I don't have 
an answer to your question. I only want to sympathize.


Dave



On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 5:35 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Recently asked what to tag some things as, including a business
selling caravans.

On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 at 02:37, Philip Barnes mailto:p...@trigpoint.me.uk>> wrote:

On Fri, 2018-12-28 at 16:36 +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:


& yards dedicated to caravan sales? I can find shop=car
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop=car, which says
it's a place that sells cars, buses or trucks. Perhaps
shop=caravan?



Shop=caravan has over 100 uses, so why not?


With fear & trepidation :-) I am about to try & create a page
shop=caravan, then put it up for further discussion.

I know this has been discussed before, but I'm still unclear on
the details (& from previous discussions, a lot of other people
are as well :-()

The page would be fairly similar to shop=car
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcar, so that sounds
like a good basis to start with.

If I just open that page, "Edit source", change value=car to
value=caravan, then save that, I'm fairly sure that will create a
shop=caravan page ready for further editing, but will the original
shop=car page still exist?

Is there a better way to create a new page?




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Re: [Tagging] Creating shop=caravan

[Dave Swarthout]

Haha, Graeme. I am in the same boat when it comes to adding anything to the
Wiki. Welcome to the arcane world of Wiki editing. I don't have an answer
to your question. I only want to sympathize.

Dave



On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 5:35 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> Recently asked what to tag some things as, including a business selling
> caravans.
>
> On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 at 02:37, Philip Barnes  wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 2018-12-28 at 16:36 +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>>
>>
>> & yards dedicated to caravan sales? I can find shop=car
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop=car, which says it's a
>> place that sells cars, buses or trucks. Perhaps shop=caravan?
>>
>>
>> Shop=caravan has over 100 uses, so why not?
>>
>
> With fear & trepidation :-) I am about to try & create a page
> shop=caravan, then put it up for further discussion.
>
> I know this has been discussed before, but I'm still unclear on the
> details (& from previous discussions, a lot of other people are as well :-()
>
> The page would be fairly similar to shop=car
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dcar, so that sounds like a
> good basis to start with.
>
> If I just open that page, "Edit source", change value=car to
> value=caravan, then save that, I'm fairly sure that will create a
> shop=caravan page ready for further editing, but will the original shop=car
> page still exist?
>
> Is there a better way to create a new page?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
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-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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