Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 10:19, Paul Allen  wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 14:22, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:
>> On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 05:47, Paul Allen  wrote:
>> > I think that coffee_shop and teahouse are not cuisines.   I'm not convinced
>> > inventing drinks=* to show what they focus on is a good idea and that
>> > description=* might be a better way of dealing with it (if the name of the
>> > place doesn't give it away).
>>
>> I strongly disagree and would much prefer a newly specified drinks=*
>> tag, or an "abused" cuisine tag, over a free-text description field.
>> This is because the former is much more reliable for sake of machine
>> readability (and also leaves description for anything else a mapper
>> might like to note). This would be doubly the case if we also adopt
>> this for espresso takeaway bars (as shown in Tan's instagram first
>> link) with no seating or very limited seating.
>
> That's what happens when I try to avoid upsetting people by
> suggesting a compromise. :)
>
> I think there is only one good way of handling a drink that is the
> primary focus: make it the only drink that has drink:*=yes.  As far
> as the user can tell from the map, that's all the shop sells.

No, that's not the intended purpose of this use of drink=*/cuisine=*.
It's to specify the general type of the shop=drinks.

We don't map a shop=greengrocer with extra tags if they happen to
stock a shelf of canned food in the back too, it's the general
category that's important.

> ...
> I think common sense has to play a part here. We don't
> list the entire inventory of every shop we map because
> it's impossible.  Somewhere with a coffee machine that's
> a hybrid of a church organ and a steam train may also sell
> tea and juice, but probably not in anywhere near as many
> varieties/sizes/combinations, so they can be omitted or
> relegated to the description.  Or we go the other way and
> list every drink sold by a pub, and all the flavours of all
> the snacks it sells, and the flavours and textures of the
> condoms sold by the vending machine in the toilets
> (and we then need a way of specifying which flavour of
> condom the vending machine focuses on).

I think common sense has to play a part here. Focus on the main
category of the shop. A bubble tea shop is not at all like other kinds
of tea shops, and fairly substantially different from other kinds of
drink takeaway shops, and that's why there's a need to tag it
separately.

--Jarek

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 19:36, 德泉 談 via Tagging 
wrote:

>
> The proposal would introduce a new tag (maybe amenity=drinks or
> amenity=takeout_drinks or what). This kind of places sell beverages mostly
> with takeaway paper or plastic cup, people can drink in their home or
> office after buying.
>
> This kind of places may focus on different drinks: coffee/iced
> tea/juice/bubble tea/etc... We can use the existing cuisine=* tag or a new
> tag for example drinks=juice to distinguish what they focus on, and
> drink:*=yes to show if a shop provides a kind of drink.


That sounds good, but I'd suggest that it should be a shop=drinks, rather
than an amenity=, together with either cuisine= or drinks=whatever.


(BTW do anyone thinks cuisine=coffee_shop or cuisine=teahouse are weird as
> me?)
>

Yep! :-)

Simple cuisine= (or drinks=) coffee & tea sounds *much* better!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Phake Nick]

在 2020年7月3日週五 22:32，Paul Allen  寫道：

> On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 14:43, Joseph Eisenberg 
> wrote:
>
>> > description=* might be a better way of dealing with it (if the name of
>> the
>> place doesn't give it away).
>>
>> No, that is a bad idea. The "description" field does not provide
>> consistent data. It is always preferable to use a new, more specific tag.
>>
>
> Description is a very good idea if you think that mapping things down to
> that
> level of detail is silly.  If it concentrates on 79 flavours of coffee with
> 200 different toppings but also sells one type of tea, map just
> drink:coffee=yes.  If you want people to know they can also get a bad
> cup of tea there, with absolutely no choice, the description is fine.
>
> The problem with a tag to specify what kind of drink it focuses on
> is that it breaks when the place focuses on two types of drink.  What
> if there is an incredible variety of teas and coffees but only one
> flavour of juice?  What if there are a lot of coffees and a lot of
> juices but the tea comes from the cheapest tea bags
> available that have long passed their shelf life?
>
> So now we need a tag that can handle multiple foci.  OK,
> semicolon-delimited list.  But now it turns out that they
> do a lot of types of coffee, a lot of types of tea, five flavours
> of juice but only one flavour of carbonated drink?  So now we
> need a tag for an intermediate-level of focus.
>
> Ah, but some of the coffee is good coffee but some of it is bad
> coffee.  So now we need to tag the individual flavours of coffee
> so we can specify a quality rating for them.
>
> This is getting very silly.
>
> Do they sell coffee?  Yes or no.  Do they sell tea?  Yes or no.  Do they
> sell juice?  Yes or no.  Are there are large range of coffees?  Goes in
> the description.
>
> I don't mind micromapping, but I draw the line at picomapping.
>
> --
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>
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在 2020年7月3日週五 22:32，Paul Allen  寫道：

> On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 14:43, Joseph Eisenberg 
> wrote:
>
>> > description=* might be a better way of dealing with it (if the name of
>> the
>> place doesn't give it away).
>>
>> No, that is a bad idea. The "description" field does not provide
>> consistent data. It is always preferable to use a new, more specific tag.
>>
>
> Description is a very good idea if you think that mapping things down to
> that
> level of detail is silly.  If it concentrates on 79 flavours of coffee with
> 200 different toppings but also sells one type of tea, map just
> drink:coffee=yes.  If you want people to know they can also get a bad
> cup of tea there, with absolutely no choice, the description is fine.
>
> The problem with a tag to specify what kind of drink it focuses on
> is that it breaks when the place focuses on two types of drink.  What
> if there is an incredible variety of teas and coffees but only one
> flavour of juice?  What if there are a lot of coffees and a lot of
> juices but the tea comes from the cheapest tea bags
> available that have long passed their shelf life?
>
> So now we need a tag that can handle multiple foci.  OK,
> semicolon-delimited list.  But now it turns out that they
> do a lot of types of coffee, a lot of types of tea, five flavours
> of juice but only one flavour of carbonated drink?  So now we
> need a tag for an intermediate-level of focus.
>
> Ah, but some of the coffee is good coffee but some of it is bad
> coffee.  So now we need to tag the individual flavours of coffee
> so we can specify a quality rating for them.
>
> This is getting very silly.
>
> Do they sell coffee?  Yes or no.  Do they sell tea?  Yes or no.  Do they
> sell juice?  Yes or no.  Are there are large range of coffees?  Goes in
> the description.
>
> I don't mind micromapping, but I draw the line at picomapping.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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>


在 2020年7月3日週五 22:32，Paul Allen  寫道：

> On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 14:43, Joseph Eisenberg 
> wrote:
>
>> > description=* might be a better way of dealing with it (if the name of
>> the
>> place doesn't give it away).
>>
>> No, that is a bad idea. The "description" field does not provide
>> consistent data. It is always preferable to use a new, more specific tag.
>>
>
> Description is a very good idea if you think that mapping things down to
> that
> level of detail is silly.  If it concentrates on 79 flavours of coffee with
> 200 different toppings but also sells one type of tea, map just
> drink:coffee=yes.  If you want people to know they can also get a bad
> cup of tea there, with absolutely no choice, the description is fine.
>
> The problem with a tag to specify what kind of drink it focuses on
> is that it breaks when the place focuses on two types of drink.  What
> if there is an 

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 14:43, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> > description=* might be a better way of dealing with it (if the name of
> the
> place doesn't give it away).
>
> No, that is a bad idea. The "description" field does not provide
> consistent data. It is always preferable to use a new, more specific tag.
>

Description is a very good idea if you think that mapping things down to
that
level of detail is silly.  If it concentrates on 79 flavours of coffee with
200 different toppings but also sells one type of tea, map just
drink:coffee=yes.  If you want people to know they can also get a bad
cup of tea there, with absolutely no choice, the description is fine.

The problem with a tag to specify what kind of drink it focuses on
is that it breaks when the place focuses on two types of drink.  What
if there is an incredible variety of teas and coffees but only one
flavour of juice?  What if there are a lot of coffees and a lot of
juices but the tea comes from the cheapest tea bags
available that have long passed their shelf life?

So now we need a tag that can handle multiple foci.  OK,
semicolon-delimited list.  But now it turns out that they
do a lot of types of coffee, a lot of types of tea, five flavours
of juice but only one flavour of carbonated drink?  So now we
need a tag for an intermediate-level of focus.

Ah, but some of the coffee is good coffee but some of it is bad
coffee.  So now we need to tag the individual flavours of coffee
so we can specify a quality rating for them.

This is getting very silly.

Do they sell coffee?  Yes or no.  Do they sell tea?  Yes or no.  Do they
sell juice?  Yes or no.  Are there are large range of coffees?  Goes in
the description.

I don't mind micromapping, but I draw the line at picomapping.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 14:22, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:

>
> On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 05:47, Paul Allen  wrote:
>


> > I think that coffee_shop and teahouse are not cuisines.   I'm not
> convinced
> > inventing drinks=* to show what they focus on is a good idea and that
> > description=* might be a better way of dealing with it (if the name of
> the
> > place doesn't give it away).
>
> I strongly disagree and would much prefer a newly specified drinks=*
> tag, or an "abused" cuisine tag, over a free-text description field.
> This is because the former is much more reliable for sake of machine
> readability (and also leaves description for anything else a mapper
> might like to note). This would be doubly the case if we also adopt
> this for espresso takeaway bars (as shown in Tan's instagram first
> link) with no seating or very limited seating.
>

That's what happens when I try to avoid upsetting people by
suggesting a compromise. :)

I think there is only one good way of handling a drink that is the
primary focus: make it the only drink that has drink:*=yes.  As far
as the user can tell from the map, that's all the shop sells.

Now you're going to tell me they sell other stuff too.  To which
I counter, maybe it's the other stuff I'm looking for.  And you're
going to counter that by saying that they're really good at
the stuff that is their primary focus and bad at the others.
And I respond that if they're so bad at the others it's
better we don't list them.  You come back by saying that
now you think about it, they're pretty good at all of them
and I respond by saying there's no need to focus on one
of them.

I think common sense has to play a part here.  We don't
list the entire inventory of every shop we map because
it's impossible.  Somewhere with a coffee machine that's
a hybrid of a church organ and a steam train may also sell
tea and juice, but probably not in anywhere near as many
varieties/sizes/combinations, so they can be omitted or
relegated to the description.  Or we go the other way and
list every drink sold by a pub, and all the flavours of all
the snacks it sells, and the flavours and textures of the
condoms sold by the vending machine in the toilets
(and we then need a way of specifying which flavour of
condom the vending machine focuses on).

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Joseph Eisenberg]

> description=* might be a better way of dealing with it (if the name of the
place doesn't give it away).

No, that is a bad idea. The "description" field does not provide consistent
data. It is always preferable to use a new, more specific tag.

One of the basic ideas of OpenStreetMap is "Any Tags You Like", because we
want mappers to invent new tags when there isn't a way to tag some
specific, verifiable information about a feature.

The key "cuisine" is currently used for a number of things:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cuisine

The values "coffee_shop" and "bubble_tea" are both documented,
"cuisine=juice" has been used over 1400 times, and "cuisine=tea" is also in
use a few hundred times.

I think using that key is reasonable, though developing more specific tags
is also an option.

– Joseph Eisenberg

On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 2:48 AM Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 10:36, 德泉 談 via Tagging 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> This kind of places may focus on different drinks: coffee/iced
>> tea/juice/bubble tea/etc... We can use the existing cuisine=* tag or a new
>> tag for example drinks=juice to distinguish what they focus on, and
>> drink:*=yes to show if a shop provides a kind of drink. (BTW do anyone
>> thinks cuisine=coffee_shop or cuisine=teahouse are weird as me?)
>>
>
> I think that coffee_shop and teahouse are not cuisines.   I'm not convinced
> inventing drinks=* to show what they focus on is a good idea and that
> description=* might be a better way of dealing with it (if the name of the
> place doesn't give it away).
>
>>
>> I'm not sure if a juice stand may be located in a outlet or amusement
>> park should tagged as this tag.
>
>
> I'm not sure why it shouldn't be.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 10:36, 德泉 談 via Tagging  wrote:
> I think I may redraft a feature proposal for the shop focusing providing 
> takeout beverages or only have very limit seats and merge the bubble tea shop 
> proposal into it. Right now we have amenity=cafe and shop=beverages for those 
> sell drinks. Actually I'm not sure that if the feature of a amenity=cafe is 
> providing a cozy social/rest space or not. But it seems like both of the two 
> tags are not suitable for shops I want to map.
>
> The proposal would introduce a new tag (maybe amenity=drinks or 
> amenity=takeout_drinks or what). This kind of places sell beverages mostly 
> with takeaway paper or plastic cup, people can drink in their home or office 
> after buying.
>
> But after this proposal we can merged the bubble tea proposal and the juice 
> bar proposal 
> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Juice_bar) to clarify 
> the tagging scheme of these shops.

This sounds good to me. Thank you for sticking with this!

On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 05:47, Paul Allen  wrote:
>> This kind of places may focus on different drinks: coffee/iced 
>> tea/juice/bubble tea/etc... We can use the existing cuisine=* tag or a new 
>> tag for example drinks=juice to distinguish what they focus on, and 
>> drink:*=yes to show if a shop provides a kind of drink. (BTW do anyone 
>> thinks cuisine=coffee_shop or cuisine=teahouse are weird as me?)
>
> I think that coffee_shop and teahouse are not cuisines.   I'm not convinced
> inventing drinks=* to show what they focus on is a good idea and that
> description=* might be a better way of dealing with it (if the name of the
> place doesn't give it away).

I strongly disagree and would much prefer a newly specified drinks=*
tag, or an "abused" cuisine tag, over a free-text description field.
This is because the former is much more reliable for sake of machine
readability (and also leaves description for anything else a mapper
might like to note). This would be doubly the case if we also adopt
this for espresso takeaway bars (as shown in Tan's instagram first
link) with no seating or very limited seating.

--Jarek

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 at 10:36, 德泉 談 via Tagging 
wrote:

>
> This kind of places may focus on different drinks: coffee/iced
> tea/juice/bubble tea/etc... We can use the existing cuisine=* tag or a new
> tag for example drinks=juice to distinguish what they focus on, and
> drink:*=yes to show if a shop provides a kind of drink. (BTW do anyone
> thinks cuisine=coffee_shop or cuisine=teahouse are weird as me?)
>

I think that coffee_shop and teahouse are not cuisines.   I'm not convinced
inventing drinks=* to show what they focus on is a good idea and that
description=* might be a better way of dealing with it (if the name of the
place doesn't give it away).

>
> I'm not sure if a juice stand may be located in a outlet or amusement park
> should tagged as this tag.


I'm not sure why it shouldn't be.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[德泉 談 via Tagging]

I think I may redraft a feature proposal for the shop focusing providing 
takeout beverages or only have very limit seats and merge the bubble tea shop 
proposal into it. Right now we have amenity=cafe and shop=beverages for those 
sell drinks. Actually I'm not sure that if the feature of a amenity=cafe is 
providing a cozy social/rest space or not. But it seems like both of the two 
tags are not suitable for shops I want to map.

The proposal would introduce a new tag (maybe amenity=drinks or 
amenity=takeout_drinks or what). This kind of places sell beverages mostly with 
takeaway paper or plastic cup, people can drink in their home or office after 
buying.

This kind of places may focus on different drinks: coffee/iced tea/juice/bubble 
tea/etc... We can use the existing cuisine=* tag or a new tag for example 
drinks=juice to distinguish what they focus on, and drink:*=yes to show if a 
shop provides a kind of drink. (BTW do anyone thinks cuisine=coffee_shop or 
cuisine=teahouse are weird as me?)

Also, some of places may provides 3 or 4 seats. The seats is mainly for thirsty 
customers to take a rest and have some drinks. But they wouldn't spend more 
than half an hour in the shop, let alone meeting or working in the shop, which 
make these not a amenity=cafe. We can still use capacity=* for tagging the 
number of seats.

There are some photos to show the concept of this proposal, all of these shop 
is located in my hometown:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BtsEiIBBX8C/ a shop sells coffee for the workers to 
drink on their office hours
https://www.instagram.com/p/CA27iqYpvwz/ they focus on selling plum green tea 
but also selling bubble teas
https://www.instagram.com/p/BS6DKVuF7IZ/ most of their drinks are juice, sells 
juice tea too.
and some shop is in the department store sorry for no pictures I found, anyone 
who have similar example of this kind of shop can also add the content.

I'm not sure if a juice stand may be located in a outlet or amusement park 
should tagged as this tag. But after this proposal we can merged the bubble tea 
proposal and the juice bar proposal 
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Juice_bar) to clarify 
the tagging scheme of these shops.

-Tan

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 29. Jun 2020, at 15:27, Andrew Harvey  wrote:
> 
> Rice yoghurt -> 
> https://www.sbs.com.au/food/article/2020/02/06/are-rice-yoghurt-drinks-new-drink-craze
>  
> Fruit Tea -> https://yifangfruitt.com/


are yoghurt drinks... question mark

Let’s discuss these when there is an exclamation mark.

They confirm bubble tea in the article.

Cheers Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Phake Nick]

在 2020年6月29日週一 20:12，Andrew Harvey  寫道：

> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 21:17, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
>> > On 29. Jun 2020, at 12:18, Andrew Harvey 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I think it's better to have some kind of high level tag like
>> amenity=drinks or shop=drinks which you order at a counter (as opposed to
>> shop=beverages which is more a shop that has pre-made bottled drinks which
>> you walk around and add to your shopping basket).
>> >
>> > The "bubble_tea" part should be left as the cuisine.
>>
>>
>> I don’t believe it is helpful to cluster all kind of places where you can
>> primarily find something to drink in a generic tag. Bubble tea is very
>> specific, and unless you want bubble tea you would not want to find these
>> when you are thirsty. We already do distinguish places to drink with
>> various tags like bar, cafe, pub, and it does not seem likely that we will
>> deprecate these, so a amenity=drinks or shop=drinks would not promise more
>> consistency or ease of tagging. We also already have shop=wine,
>> shop=beverages and more. I would make bubble_tea a first level tag
>> (or maybe a subtag for pastry/sweets etc.)
>>
>
> So we have a first level tag for fruit_tea, purple_yogurt, milk_tea,
> bubble_tea, fresh_squeezed_juice, blended_juice, milkshake, smoothie? It's
> too long tail and breaks down when you have a shop that sells a mixture of
> those instead of just one, a single primary tag for all of these is better.
>
> The same way we just have amenity=restaurant and don't have
> amenity=pizza_restaurant etc.
>
> The same way a place that mostly does chocolate drinks that you sit down
> at and also does desserts is amenity=cafe + cuisine=chocolate, even if
> there is no coffee sold.
>
>
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But we do have tags like shop=confectionery , and the different between
confectionery and bakery is just of the same nature as the different
between bubble tea and regular drink shop.

>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[德泉 談 via Tagging]

I don't think that use tags like cuisine=japanese or italian is a good idea for 
cafes.


在 2020年6月29日 星期一 下午9:26:30 [GMT+8]， Andrew Harvey 寫道：
> Sorry I wasn't aware of https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:drink, that 
> makes a lot of sense.
>
> As an aside, it might make sense then to use drink:*= as the kind of drink 
> (chocolate) and cuisine=* to refer to the style/way it is prepared.
>
> So a place that does the thick and rich italian hot chocolate would be 
> amenity=cafe + cusine=italian + drink:chocolate=designated (designated means 
> it's actually signposted as a chocolate cafe rather than just happening to 
> have chocolate on the menu but not the main item).

I believe that drink:*= is an useful tag for users who really want to know what 
the coffeehouse provides. For example we can add drink:fruit_tea=yes on 
Starbucks so those who don't like to drink coffee can still go there.

But it's hard to use drink:*= in the iD presets, we can only add a column 
encouraging mappers to add them.


在 2020年6月29日 星期一 下午9:26:30 [GMT+8]， Andrew Harvey 寫道：
> A place that does japanese style matcha drinks would be amenity=cafe + 
> cuisine=japanese + drink:matcha=designated.

And It's too hard to define all the localize cuisine. I don't know how to tag 
Starbucks in such scheme.

-Tan

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 14:27, Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 22:21, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
> As an aside, it might make sense then to use drink:*= as the kind of drink
> (chocolate) and cuisine=* to refer to the style/way it is prepared.
>

If it's a place only selling drinks, and all the drinks are prepared in
that same
style, then maybe.  If it sells food as well as drink then what does the
cuisine
apply to?  If it sells Italian-style coffees and English-style teas, what
then?
Anyway, cuisine applies to food rather than drink.  How about
drink:style:*=*?
So drink:style:coffee=italian.  Clunky and ugly (and possibly unnecessary)
but
it covers all possibilities.

So a place that does the thick and rich italian hot chocolate would be
> amenity=cafe + cusine=italian + drink:chocolate=designated (designated
> means it's actually signposted as a chocolate cafe rather than just
> happening to have chocolate on the menu but not the main item).
>

Um, are we talking about cafes in Europe (coffee and maybe light snacks)
or in Britain (filling meals)?  I'm having problems fitting that
combination into a
British English definition of cafe.  Does not compute.  This is the sort of
thing
found in many British cafes (often served all day long, despite the name):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_breakfast  If I wanted one of those and
was led
to a place selling nothing but chocolate, I'd be very disappointed.

I'm starting to agree with bkil here, to the extent that we need some way of
tagging what in British English is called a coffee house ot coffee shop.
The problem being that they can also serve light snacks and are on
the same spectrum as cafes (British meaning) it's just that the menu is
more limited.  Also places that start out selling coffee and cakes may
retain "coffee shop" or "tea shop" in the name but expand their menu until
they are effectively cafes.

See https://www.facebook.com/pg/adelescafeCilgerran/about/
It started as a tea room and coffee shop (and still describes itself
that way) selling "cakes and light bites."  It later added cooked
breakfasts and the title of that "About" page is "Adele's Cafe."  It
can't make up its mind what it is.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Andrew Harvey]

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 22:21, Paul Allen  wrote:

> Why cuisine=* rather than drink:*=yes for chocolate drinks?  I consider
> cuisine
> to apply to food, not beverages.  Soup and ice cream are edge cases, but
> chocolate
> drinks don't count as food as far as I'm concerned.
>

Sorry I wasn't aware of https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:drink, that
makes a lot of sense.

As an aside, it might make sense then to use drink:*= as the kind of drink
(chocolate) and cuisine=* to refer to the style/way it is prepared.

So a place that does the thick and rich italian hot chocolate would be
amenity=cafe + cusine=italian + drink:chocolate=designated (designated
means it's actually signposted as a chocolate cafe rather than just
happening to have chocolate on the menu but not the main item).

A place that does japanese style matcha drinks would be amenity=cafe +
cuisine=japanese + drink:matcha=designated.

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 22:45, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> what I wrote was that I believe subtagging is an option, but that it will
> / should not be a subtag for a (yet to introduce according to you) tag
> shop=drinks
>
> We will not get main tags for purple yoghurt or fruit tea, because there
> aren’t such places (at least I have never heard of places specializing in
> these, unlike bubble tea, which apparently is a thing).
>

Rice yoghurt ->
https://www.sbs.com.au/food/article/2020/02/06/are-rice-yoghurt-drinks-new-drink-craze

Fruit Tea -> https://yifangfruitt.com/

Only just scratching the surface with all the local variations of drinks
around the world.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[bkil]

Actually we have a very similar problem with tagging a "Tejivó" in
Hungary (literally a "place to drink milk"). It's conceptually very
similar to a café (coffeehouse...), but the coffee offering isn't that
pronounced (other than using their own milk). Rather, they serve a
huge variety of dairy based products, all artisanal made from their
own organic milk, including drinks, cheese, sandwiches, pastry and
desserts. I think people prefer to go there for their artisanal
desserts. Although, I guess they do keep in stock some non-artisanal
products as well.

This all makes them much closer to a traditional "cukrászda" than a
"kávézó", although the difference is moot as we don't have a way to
tag "cukrászda" anyway at the moment.

Here's their menu:
http://cserpestejivo.hu/menu.php

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 2:45 PM Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 29. Jun 2020, at 14:12, Andrew Harvey  wrote:
> >
> > So we have a first level tag for fruit_tea, purple_yogurt, milk_tea, 
> > bubble_tea, fresh_squeezed_juice, blended_juice, milkshake, smoothie? It's 
> > too long tail and breaks down when you have a shop that sells a mixture of 
> > those instead of just one, a single primary tag for all of these is better.
>
>
> what I wrote was that I believe subtagging is an option, but that it will / 
> should not be a subtag for a (yet to introduce according to you) tag 
> shop=drinks
>
> We will not get main tags for purple yoghurt or fruit tea, because there 
> aren’t such places (at least I have never heard of places specializing in 
> these, unlike bubble tea, which apparently is a thing).
>
> Cheers Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 29. Jun 2020, at 14:12, Andrew Harvey  wrote:
> 
> So we have a first level tag for fruit_tea, purple_yogurt, milk_tea, 
> bubble_tea, fresh_squeezed_juice, blended_juice, milkshake, smoothie? It's 
> too long tail and breaks down when you have a shop that sells a mixture of 
> those instead of just one, a single primary tag for all of these is better.


what I wrote was that I believe subtagging is an option, but that it will / 
should not be a subtag for a (yet to introduce according to you) tag shop=drinks

We will not get main tags for purple yoghurt or fruit tea, because there aren’t 
such places (at least I have never heard of places specializing in these, 
unlike bubble tea, which apparently is a thing). 

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 13:12, Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

>
> So we have a first level tag for fruit_tea, purple_yogurt, milk_tea,
> bubble_tea, fresh_squeezed_juice, blended_juice, milkshake, smoothie? It's
> too long tail and breaks down when you have a shop that sells a mixture of
> those instead of just one, a single primary tag for all of these is better.
>

+1

The same way a place that mostly does chocolate drinks that you sit down at
> and also does desserts is amenity=cafe + cuisine=chocolate, even if there
> is no coffee sold.
>

Why cuisine=* rather than drink:*=yes for chocolate drinks?  I consider
cuisine
to apply to food, not beverages.  Soup and ice cream are edge cases, but
chocolate
drinks don't count as food as far as I'm concerned.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Andrew Harvey]

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 at 21:17, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> > On 29. Jun 2020, at 12:18, Andrew Harvey 
> wrote:
> >
> > I think it's better to have some kind of high level tag like
> amenity=drinks or shop=drinks which you order at a counter (as opposed to
> shop=beverages which is more a shop that has pre-made bottled drinks which
> you walk around and add to your shopping basket).
> >
> > The "bubble_tea" part should be left as the cuisine.
>
>
> I don’t believe it is helpful to cluster all kind of places where you can
> primarily find something to drink in a generic tag. Bubble tea is very
> specific, and unless you want bubble tea you would not want to find these
> when you are thirsty. We already do distinguish places to drink with
> various tags like bar, cafe, pub, and it does not seem likely that we will
> deprecate these, so a amenity=drinks or shop=drinks would not promise more
> consistency or ease of tagging. We also already have shop=wine,
> shop=beverages and more. I would make bubble_tea a first level tag
> (or maybe a subtag for pastry/sweets etc.)
>

So we have a first level tag for fruit_tea, purple_yogurt, milk_tea,
bubble_tea, fresh_squeezed_juice, blended_juice, milkshake, smoothie? It's
too long tail and breaks down when you have a shop that sells a mixture of
those instead of just one, a single primary tag for all of these is better.

The same way we just have amenity=restaurant and don't have
amenity=pizza_restaurant etc.

The same way a place that mostly does chocolate drinks that you sit down at
and also does desserts is amenity=cafe + cuisine=chocolate, even if there
is no coffee sold.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 29. Jun 2020, at 12:18, Andrew Harvey  wrote:
> 
> I think it's better to have some kind of high level tag like amenity=drinks 
> or shop=drinks which you order at a counter (as opposed to shop=beverages 
> which is more a shop that has pre-made bottled drinks which you walk around 
> and add to your shopping basket).
> 
> The "bubble_tea" part should be left as the cuisine.


I don’t believe it is helpful to cluster all kind of places where you can 
primarily find something to drink in a generic tag. Bubble tea is very 
specific, and unless you want bubble tea you would not want to find these when 
you are thirsty. We already do distinguish places to drink with various tags 
like bar, cafe, pub, and it does not seem likely that we will deprecate these, 
so a amenity=drinks or shop=drinks would not promise more consistency or ease 
of tagging. We also already have shop=wine, shop=beverages and more. I would 
make bubble_tea a first level tag
(or maybe a subtag for pastry/sweets etc.)

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Andrew Harvey]

The way I see it these are essentially vendors which primarily sell made to
order drinks and mostly take away only (although some provide seating).

I think it's better to have some kind of high level tag like amenity=drinks
or shop=drinks which you order at a counter (as opposed to shop=beverages
which is more a shop that has pre-made bottled drinks which you walk around
and add to your shopping basket).

The "bubble_tea" part should be left as the cuisine. This then caters for
the longtail of specific types of drinks which makes it much easier for
data consumers. It makes it easier when these places make a few different
kinds of drinks and not just bubble tea. Just around me there are the
traditional taiwainese bubble tea places, purple yogourt, other yogourt
drinks, fruit tea, blended juice. So a shop=drinks would cover them all
without needing a special top level tag for each, and you would add all the
specific types of drinks as cuisine (and possibly add cusine=taiwanese as
well).

While I've been tagging these as amenity=cafe and name-suggestion-index has
them as cafe, that's more just because we don't have a better tag and agree
that they aren't what at least I'd consider a cafe (which is more sit down,
possibly with cake or meals).

Existing tags like takeaway=only, indoor_seating=yes/no/bar_table,
outdoor_seating=yes/no should be used to add further information.

On Sat, 27 Jun 2020 at 01:31, 德泉 談 via Tagging 
wrote:

> I've drafted a new proposal about the bubble tea shops which are very
> common in Taiwan which are usually mismapped as shop=beverages
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Dbubble_tea
>
> Please visit and comment for this proposal, thanks.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 27. Jun 2020, at 23:16, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:
> 
> I wish you much luck convincing iD not to apply its presets ("upgrade tags") 
> for those Starbucks locations that don't have seating.


we are not discussing iD presets on this list, it is about tagging. 

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Don't know if it's only an Aussie thing (yet again! :-)), but we have (at
least) one franchise of shops called Boost Juice
https://www.boostjuice.com.au/, which only serve varieties of fruit juice &
smoothies.

Every one of them that I have seen are kiosks inside shopping centres, with
no seating provided.

I mapped one locally as shop=beverages, but now wondering if that's
correct? Discussion on the talk page (admittedly from some time ago)
suggests that it is just for shops selling alcohol
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:shop%3Dbeverages

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 27 Jun 2020 at 23:07, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:

>
> And then someone comes round and "upgrades tags" to match iD brand presets
> :)
>

Ah.

The actual problem (last time I tried upgrading tags with iD) is that it
doesn't
tell you what it's going to change, it doesn't tell you what it has
changed, it
just changes tags (almost behind your back).  The only way of knowing what
it's done is to memorise the raw tags before upgrading and compare that
with what you have after upgrading.  So, unless you're paying very close
attention you don't notice that iD has done something that might be
sub-optimal.

If iD showed you what it was going to do, people would notice it was
going to change "Starbucks Coffee" to "Starbucks" and might wonder
if that was the correct thing to do.  Some would probably accept it
anyway, assuming iD was right.  Some would assume the original
mapper got it wrong.  Others would assume the original mapper got
it right.

So making iD show proposed changes wouldn't stop this kind of thing
happening, but it might stop it happening as often.

H.  I suppose iD could be made to take note of not:name
and not "upgrade" the name to Starbucks if you had hot:name=Starbucks.
I'd suggest it on github but I'm pretty sure I'm on their blacklist and
anything I post there is ignored by their filters.

-- 
Paul

mapper
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020, 17:52 Paul Allen,  wrote:

> On Sat, 27 Jun 2020 at 22:16, Jarek Piórkowski 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I wish you much luck convincing iD not to apply its presets ("upgrade
>> tags") for those Starbucks locations that don't have seating. I tried
>> insisting on tagging a local location's actual posted name ("Starbucks
>> Coffee") and lost badly.
>>
>
> I've not tried over-riding a name=* derived from the brand, but I've
> over-ridden
> names of hamlets and villages where name=* derived from Wikidata.  iD even
> helpfully tells you how to do it if you try to alter the locked name in
> the preset -
> change it in the raw tags.
>

And then someone comes round and "upgrades tags" to match iD brand presets
:)
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 27 Jun 2020 at 22:16, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:

>
> I wish you much luck convincing iD not to apply its presets ("upgrade
> tags") for those Starbucks locations that don't have seating. I tried
> insisting on tagging a local location's actual posted name ("Starbucks
> Coffee") and lost badly.
>

I've not tried over-riding a name=* derived from the brand, but I've
over-ridden
names of hamlets and villages where name=* derived from Wikidata.  iD even
helpfully tells you how to do it if you try to alter the locked name in the
preset -
change it in the raw tags.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020, 11:10 Martin Koppenhoefer, 
wrote:

>
> > On 27. Jun 2020, at 16:59, Shawn K. Quinn  wrote:
> >
> > Even if it [a Starbucks location]
> > was just a kiosk I would still tag amenity=cafe for consistency.
>
>
> if it were just a kiosk you should not tag it as amenity=cafe, exactly for
> this reason: consistency.
>

I wish you much luck convincing iD not to apply its presets ("upgrade
tags") for those Starbucks locations that don't have seating. I tried
insisting on tagging a local location's actual posted name ("Starbucks
Coffee") and lost badly.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 27. Jun 2020, at 16:59, Shawn K. Quinn  wrote:
> 
> Even if it
> was just a kiosk I would still tag amenity=cafe for consistency.


if it were just a kiosk you should not tag it as amenity=cafe, exactly for this 
reason: consistency.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On 6/27/20 09:55, Philip Barnes wrote:
> Starbucks in my experience has seating, I am unaware of any which are
> takeaway only.

There are a couple out here that have outdoor seating only. Even if it
was just a kiosk I would still tag amenity=cafe for consistency.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Philip Barnes]

On Sat, 2020-06-27 at 09:48 -0500, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:
> On 6/27/20 09:33, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> > I would be ok with fast food for bubble tea, although typically you
> > say “food and drinks”, i.e. calling a place where you can get only
> > things to drink and nothing to eat might seem a bit strange?
> > 
> > The fast food term has also some connotations about being not
> > healthy, synonymous to “junk food” (devouring hastily food with a
> > unhealthy relation of nutritional components). It’s probably
> > acceptable for bubble tea, but we shouldn’t see it as a general
> > category for takeaways, shall we?
> 
> I have been tagging Starbucks as amenity=cafe; I don't see what's
> wrong
> with tagging these the same way.

Starbucks in my experience has seating, I am unaware of any which are
takeaway only.

Phil (trigpoint)



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On 6/27/20 09:33, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> I would be ok with fast food for bubble tea, although typically you
> say “food and drinks”, i.e. calling a place where you can get only
> things to drink and nothing to eat might seem a bit strange?
> 
> The fast food term has also some connotations about being not
> healthy, synonymous to “junk food” (devouring hastily food with a
> unhealthy relation of nutritional components). It’s probably
> acceptable for bubble tea, but we shouldn’t see it as a general
> category for takeaways, shall we?

I have been tagging Starbucks as amenity=cafe; I don't see what's wrong
with tagging these the same way.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Philip Barnes]

On Sat, 2020-06-27 at 16:33 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
> > On 27. Jun 2020, at 16:03, Philip Barnes 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > I would call that a takeaway in everyday language which we map as
> > fast food in OSM.
> 
> I would be ok with fast food for bubble tea, although typically you
> say “food and drinks”, i.e. calling a place where you can get only
> things to drink and nothing to eat might seem a bit strange?
> 
> The fast food term has also some connotations about being not
> healthy, synonymous to “junk food” (devouring hastily food with a
> unhealthy relation of nutritional components). It’s probably
> acceptable for bubble tea, but we shouldn’t see it as a general
> category for takeaways, shall we?
> 
Very true. 

If you say 'fast food' most people would think of American imports such
as McDonalds and KFC, not the local fish and chip shop or Chinese (take
away).

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 27. Jun 2020, at 16:03, Philip Barnes  wrote:
> 
> I would call that a takeaway in everyday language which we map as fast food 
> in OSM.


I would be ok with fast food for bubble tea, although typically you say “food 
and drinks”, i.e. calling a place where you can get only things to drink and 
nothing to eat might seem a bit strange?

The fast food term has also some connotations about being not healthy, 
synonymous to “junk food” (devouring hastily food with a unhealthy relation of 
nutritional components). It’s probably acceptable for bubble tea, but we 
shouldn’t see it as a general category for takeaways, shall we?

Cheers Martin 



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri, 2020-06-26 at 19:53 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> FWIW, I also believe these are very different from shop=beverages, as
> they are selling drinks ready to consume, while shop=beverages is a
> kind of shop that sells beverages to take home (while nothing
> prevents you from buying a single drink and consume it as soon as you
> leave the shop, this is not what typically is done and not how they
> are set up. 
> 
> Just compare these two images to get an understanding what they might
> look like and what kind of "style" it is:
> https://curiocity.com/toronto/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/screen-shot-2019-01-22-at-10.32.55-am.png
> https://www.getraenkefachhandel-meyer.de/file/8ae67d834b563d71014b6df0d7233baf.de.0/content-ueber-uns-anfahrt-getraenkemarkt-waldstetten-alkoholfrei.jpg?derivate=usage%3Dposter%2Cwidth~805
> 
> It is also about quantity. You will usually buy large quantities in a
> beverage shop like a weeks ration, while the bubble tea shop is more
> like a coffee to go or an ice cream parlour.
> 
I would call that a takeaway in everyday language which we map as fast
food in OSM.

Phil (trigpoint)
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[德泉 談 via Tagging]

I believe many mappers are confused a lot for choosing the right tag just like 
me.

So if we have a normal coffee house providing coffee and have seat we use
* amenity=cafe + cuisine=coffee_shop (but the cuisine tag is not included in iD 
preset so many users do not add them)
and if it is only a roadside store or a peddler we should use
* amenity=cafe + cuisine=coffee_shop along with takeout=only

And a teahouse have seats use
* amenity=cafe + cuisine=tea ? (not mentioned in OSM wiki)
* shop=tea ? (might be confused with shop selling tea equipments and tea leaves)
* amenity=teahouse (which was a draft proposal but few discussion)
but like a bubble tea shop use
* amenity=cafe + cuisine=bubble_tea + takeout=only ?
* shop=bubble_tea or shop=beverages (causing confused with beverages market)

Furthermore we still have ice cream store use
* amenity=ice_cream
and I've noticed that shaved ice store sometimes use amenity=ice_cream, 
sometimes use amenity=cafe, and sometimes use amenity=fast_food, nevertheless 
donut shop and bagel shop still use amenity=cafe + cuisine=donut/begal

I'm not sure if we should solved all these problem at one time or just clarify 
how to map the bubble tea shop only for takeaway. But I think if we use 
cuisine=* to distinguish coffee shop, tea house, bubble tea shop, donut shop, 
bagel shop and shaved ice shop, it's better to have own icon and wiki pages for 
each of them

- Tan

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Jun 26, 2020, 18:41 by pla16...@gmail.com:

> On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 17:28, Jarek Piórkowski <> ja...@piorkowski.ca> > 
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 11:50, Paul Allen <>> pla16...@gmail.com>> > wrote:
>>  > On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 16:31, 德泉 談 via Tagging <>> 
>> tagging@openstreetmap.org>> > wrote:
>>  >>
>>  >> I've drafted a new proposal about the bubble tea shops which are very 
>> common in Taiwan which are usually mismapped as shop=beverages
>>  >>
>>  >> >> 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Dbubble_tea
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > Looking at your proposal, I fail to see how these are not shop=beverages.
>>  
>>  Have you seen a bubble tea shop?
>>
>
> Nope. :) 
>
>>
>> It's basically a cafe. It prepares drinks to order. Best tagging I've
>>  seen around me is amenity=cafe + cuisine=bubble_tea
>>
>
> As described in the proposal, most lack seating.  Which makes those
> without seating shops rather than cafes.
>
Places selling kebab/roasted potatoes are often without seating,
tagged amenity=fast_food and no one ever proposed shop=fast_food
for ones without seating.

amenity=cafe + cuisine=bubble_tea seems OK to me,
amenity=bubble_tea also seems fine (though it will have trouble 
with support among data consumers), shop=bubble_tea
seems OK but I would not care at all about seating
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Mark Wagner]

On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 17:41:31 +0100
Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 17:28, Jarek Piórkowski 
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > I would suggest using an amenity tag rather than a shop tag since
> > it's much more like a cafe or a fast food place than a store.
> >  
> 
> I can see that it's more like fast food since the stuff has to be
> prepared. But then I think "Starbucks."  Have we already standardized
> on a way of tagging somewhere without seats that sells takeaway
> coffee?

The ubiquitous American coffee stands, which may or may not have
seating, are "amenity=cafe" + "cuisine=coffee_shop".

-- 
Mark

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Joseph Eisenberg]

There is a tag shop=tea

According to the wiki
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Ashop%3Dtea) this
is supposed to be used for shops which sell tea leaves and bags of tea
leaves for consumption at home or elsewhere.

However, in practice many shop=tea features are "tea houses" which sell
brewed tea. See https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Vvi

Here in Oregon we have a Boba tea place which is tagged shop=tea -
http://bobahead.com - https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/7058798286

– Joseph Eisenberg

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 11:02 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> Am Fr., 26. Juni 2020 um 19:47 Uhr schrieb Paul Allen  >:
>
>> In British English we have tea shops - they also sell coffee and food.
>> We have
>> coffee shops - they also sell tea and food.  Functionally, they are
>> cafes, as
>> OSM tags define that term.
>>
>
>
> I believe it is an omission of the early days that we do not distinguish
> between tea shops and coffee shops, they are quite different. In my home
> town there is a tea shop, (mostly) ladies meet there, they do not sell any
> coffee but have a wide variety of tea, which you can consume on the
> premises but also take home (they have lots of containers and will weigh
> and fill the tea you ask in paper bags, they have fine qualities of tea,
> they do not sell any food AFAIK but there may be some cookies, etc.) while
> in most cafes you will not get very good tea, at most some better quality
> tea bag tea.
>
>
>
>> As these things have been described by later posts, they're closer to
>> fast food places than cafes, but for drinks rather than food.
>>
>
>
> +1 (bubble tea)
>
>
> Whatever
>> main tag we settle on, I think beverages is better than bubble_tea since
>> the proposal already included drink:bubble_tea=yes.
>>
>
>
> no, shop=beverages as I have only seen it applied, is about a kind of
> "supermarket" or "convenience store" for beverages, it is not a kind of
> cafe, fast food or whatever category of food and drink amenity we come up
> with.
>
>
>> Then we can deal
>> with a shop that has no seats and sells only hot coffee to take away.  Or
>> iced tea.  Or fresh juices made from whole fruit on the spot.  Or
>> whatever.
>>
>
>
> all these are not a kind of "supermarket" "convenience shop" ...
>
> Cheers
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Fr., 26. Juni 2020 um 19:47 Uhr schrieb Paul Allen :

> In British English we have tea shops - they also sell coffee and food.  We
> have
> coffee shops - they also sell tea and food.  Functionally, they are cafes,
> as
> OSM tags define that term.
>


I believe it is an omission of the early days that we do not distinguish
between tea shops and coffee shops, they are quite different. In my home
town there is a tea shop, (mostly) ladies meet there, they do not sell any
coffee but have a wide variety of tea, which you can consume on the
premises but also take home (they have lots of containers and will weigh
and fill the tea you ask in paper bags, they have fine qualities of tea,
they do not sell any food AFAIK but there may be some cookies, etc.) while
in most cafes you will not get very good tea, at most some better quality
tea bag tea.



> As these things have been described by later posts, they're closer to
> fast food places than cafes, but for drinks rather than food.
>


+1 (bubble tea)


Whatever
> main tag we settle on, I think beverages is better than bubble_tea since
> the proposal already included drink:bubble_tea=yes.
>


no, shop=beverages as I have only seen it applied, is about a kind of
"supermarket" or "convenience store" for beverages, it is not a kind of
cafe, fast food or whatever category of food and drink amenity we come up
with.


> Then we can deal
> with a shop that has no seats and sells only hot coffee to take away.  Or
> iced tea.  Or fresh juices made from whole fruit on the spot.  Or whatever.
>


all these are not a kind of "supermarket" "convenience shop" ...

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

FWIW, I also believe these are very different from shop=beverages, as they
are selling drinks ready to consume, while shop=beverages is a kind of shop
that sells beverages to take home (while nothing prevents you from buying a
single drink and consume it as soon as you leave the shop, this is not what
typically is done and not how they are set up.

Just compare these two images to get an understanding what they might look
like and what kind of "style" it is:
https://curiocity.com/toronto/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/screen-shot-2019-01-22-at-10.32.55-am.png
https://www.getraenkefachhandel-meyer.de/file/8ae67d834b563d71014b6df0d7233baf.de.0/content-ueber-uns-anfahrt-getraenkemarkt-waldstetten-alkoholfrei.jpg?derivate=usage%3Dposter%2Cwidth~805

It is also about quantity. You will usually buy large quantities in a
beverage shop like a weeks ration, while the bubble tea shop is more like a
coffee to go or an ice cream parlour.

Cheers
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 17:56, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> I also think amenity=bubble_tea is more appropriate, but shop=bubble_tea
> is fine.
>

I still thing they sell beverages and bubble_tea happens to be one of those
beverages.  That's why we have drink:*=yes.

>
> Using amenity=cafe seems wrong. An amenity=cafe has "sit-down facilities"
> according to the wiki.
>

And according to me, as a British English speaker.

>
> Also the word "cafe" is from "coffee"
>

Yes, but a cafe sells some sort of food, too, no matter the etymology.

- at least in the USA and Indonesia these places always sell coffee, unlike
> a Bubble Tea shop.
>

In British English we have tea shops - they also sell coffee and food.  We
have
coffee shops - they also sell tea and food.  Functionally, they are cafes,
as
OSM tags define that term.

As these things have been described by later posts, they're closer to
fast food places than cafes, but for drinks rather than food.  Whatever
main tag we settle on, I think beverages is better than bubble_tea since
the proposal already included drink:bubble_tea=yes.  Then we can deal
with a shop that has no seats and sells only hot coffee to take away.  Or
iced tea.  Or fresh juices made from whole fruit on the spot.  Or whatever.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 17:50, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:

Still not sure why we can't just use cafe. Is "cafe" exclusively for
> sit-down, dine-in places in British English?
>

British English usage is always slippery (because of marketers) but
I'd say that a cafe offers some sort of food somewhere to sit.  As in
meaning 1 of https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/caf%C3%A9

Sometimes we have tea shops (but they sell other beverages) and
coffee shops (but they sell other beverages) and those sell some
sort of food (cakes, or sandwiches, or fry-ups, or whatever).  They
get mapped as amenity=cafe. :)

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[德泉 談 via Tagging]

 On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 11:49, Paul Allen  wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 17:28, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:
>> On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 11:50, Paul Allen  wrote:
>> > On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 16:31, 德泉 談 via Tagging <
>> tagging at openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I've drafted a new proposal about the bubble tea shops which are very
>> common in Taiwan which are usually mismapped as shop=beverages
>> >>
>> >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Dbubble_tea
>> >
>> >
>> > Looking at your proposal, I fail to see how these are not shop=beverages.
>>
>> Have you seen a bubble tea shop?
>>
>
> Nope. :)
>
>>
>> It's basically a cafe. It prepares drinks to order. Best tagging I've
>> seen around me is amenity=cafe + cuisine=bubble_tea
>>
>
> As described in the proposal, most lack seating.  Which makes those
> without seating shops rather than cafes.
>
>>
>> See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Acuisine%3Dbubble_tea -
>> per https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/cuisine=bubble_tea it's not
>> very common but for example iD presets have amenity=cafe +
>> cuisine=bubble_tea for Chatime
>>
>> https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index/blob/c0b65aacf04be6753f6e7e82007399bee1e65fdc/brands/amenity/cafe.json#L314-L329
>> as well as Gong Cha, Sharetea, and a few others.
>>
>
> Seems reasonable, if they have seats and they also serve food.
>
>>
>> I would suggest using an amenity tag rather than a shop tag since it's
>> much more like a cafe or a fast food place than a store.
>>
>
> I can see that it's more like fast food since the stuff has to be prepared.
> But then I think "Starbucks."  Have we already standardized on a way
> of tagging somewhere without seats that sells takeaway coffee?
>
>>
>> In a bubble tea place you place an order and it is prepared and served to
>> you.
>>
>
> So like a place that sells takeaway coffee but the list of beverages
> is different.  If we have a way of mapping coffee takeaways then
> use that with drink:bubble_tea=yes.  If we don't have a way of mapping
> coffee takeaways then we probably need one that can,deal with coffee,
> bubble tea and whatever else with appropriate drink:*=*.

Thanks Paul and thanks Jerek. Sorry for didn't described clearly in the 
proposal.

The reason that I made this proposal is because after I sent a pull request to 
add a bubble tea shop in the name-suggestion-index on Github 
(https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index/pull/3998), an user reminded 
me that some of the bubble tea shops are tagged with amenity=cafe + 
cuisine=bubble_tea, instead, shop=beverages is more for the place selling cans 
or bottles of beer and other beverages. It confused me because most of the 
users in Taiwan have used shop=beverages a lot and it had been some brands such 
as 50嵐, CoCo都可, 大苑子DaYuans, 清心福全ChingShin and 茶湯會TP-TEA in the 
name-suggestion-index/shop=beverages already.

In my opinion, amenity=cafe is not suitable for bubble tea shop even if takeout 
coffee shop is common nowadays. Bubble tea shops usually don't serve coffee and 
snacks and mostly don't have seats. I'd also checked the original 
shop=beverages proposal page 
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Beverages) which was 
drafted in 2008 and never been voted. It's widely used in Germany

Before drafted this proposal, I'd done some research and found some interesting 
point.

This is shop=beverages in NYC
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Vvc
Most of them are beer seller, and some bubble tea shop, some are coffee shop 
(mismapped).

and shop=beverages in Dusseldorf
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Vvd
most of them are beer and wines market.

I believe that currently most of the shop=beverages are located in Germany and 
Taiwan, but the form are very different between two places.

I think amenity=bubble_tea may be an option but really not sure wether use 
amenity or shop is better.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Joseph Eisenberg]

I also think amenity=bubble_tea is more appropriate, but shop=bubble_tea is
fine.

Using amenity=cafe seems wrong. An amenity=cafe has "sit-down facilities"
according to the wiki.

Also the word "cafe" is from "coffee" - at least in the USA and Indonesia
these places always sell coffee, unlike a Bubble Tea shop.

I find it quite strange that amenity=cafe is being suggested for tea shops,
bagel shops and donut shops on the wiki.

This seems to be based on some cultural assumptions about what is a "cafe"
in European contexts, but this does not match usage in Asia and North
America.

– Joseph Eisenberg

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 9:43 AM Paul Allen  wrote:
>
> On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 17:28, Jarek Piórkowski 
wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 11:50, Paul Allen  wrote:
>> > On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 16:31, 德泉 談 via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I've drafted a new proposal about the bubble tea shops which are very
common in Taiwan which are usually mismapped as shop=beverages
>> >>
>> >>
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Dbubble_tea
>> >
>> >
>> > Looking at your proposal, I fail to see how these are not
shop=beverages.
>>
>> Have you seen a bubble tea shop?
>
>
> Nope. :)
>>
>>
>> It's basically a cafe. It prepares drinks to order. Best tagging I've
>> seen around me is amenity=cafe + cuisine=bubble_tea
>
>
> As described in the proposal, most lack seating.  Which makes those
> without seating shops rather than cafes.
>>
>>
>> See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Acuisine%3Dbubble_tea -
>> per https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/cuisine=bubble_tea it's not
>> very common but for example iD presets have amenity=cafe +
>> cuisine=bubble_tea for Chatime
>>
https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index/blob/c0b65aacf04be6753f6e7e82007399bee1e65fdc/brands/amenity/cafe.json#L314-L329
>> as well as Gong Cha, Sharetea, and a few others.
>
>
> Seems reasonable, if they have seats and they also serve food.
>>
>>
>> I would suggest using an amenity tag rather than a shop tag since it's
>> much more like a cafe or a fast food place than a store.
>
>
> I can see that it's more like fast food since the stuff has to be
prepared.
> But then I think "Starbucks."  Have we already standardized on a way
> of tagging somewhere without seats that sells takeaway coffee?
>>
>>
>> In a bubble tea place you place an order and it is prepared and served
to you.
>
>
> So like a place that sells takeaway coffee but the list of beverages
> is different.  If we have a way of mapping coffee takeaways then
> use that with drink:bubble_tea=yes.  If we don't have a way of mapping
> coffee takeaways then we probably need one that can,deal with coffee,
> bubble tea and whatever else with appropriate drink:*=*.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 12:42, Paul Allen  wrote:
>> It's basically a cafe. It prepares drinks to order. Best tagging I've
>> seen around me is amenity=cafe + cuisine=bubble_tea
>
> As described in the proposal, most lack seating.  Which makes those
> without seating shops rather than cafes.

This is the first time I'm hearing about an OSM distinction between
shop and cafe based on seating or not.

If there's an espresso counter that does takeaway only does that
become no longer an amenity=cafe + cuisine=coffee_shop? I can think of
several coffee shops in Toronto that only do takeaway - e.g. in office
areas, or near parks.

Would it not be better to tag dine_in=no or something?

>> I would suggest using an amenity tag rather than a shop tag since it's
>> much more like a cafe or a fast food place than a store.
>
> I can see that it's more like fast food since the stuff has to be prepared.
> But then I think "Starbucks."  Have we already standardized on a way
> of tagging somewhere without seats that sells takeaway coffee?

I'd use amenity=cafe + cuisine=coffee_shop, I guess could add
takeaway=only ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

> If we don't have a way of mapping
> coffee takeaways then we probably need one that can,deal with coffee,
> bubble tea and whatever else with appropriate drink:*=*.

Still not sure why we can't just use cafe. Is "cafe" exclusively for
sit-down, dine-in places in British English?

--Jarek

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 17:28, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:

> On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 11:50, Paul Allen  wrote:
> > On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 16:31, 德泉 談 via Tagging <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> I've drafted a new proposal about the bubble tea shops which are very
> common in Taiwan which are usually mismapped as shop=beverages
> >>
> >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Dbubble_tea
> >
> >
> > Looking at your proposal, I fail to see how these are not shop=beverages.
>
> Have you seen a bubble tea shop?
>

Nope. :)

>
> It's basically a cafe. It prepares drinks to order. Best tagging I've
> seen around me is amenity=cafe + cuisine=bubble_tea
>

As described in the proposal, most lack seating.  Which makes those
without seating shops rather than cafes.

>
> See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Acuisine%3Dbubble_tea -
> per https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/cuisine=bubble_tea it's not
> very common but for example iD presets have amenity=cafe +
> cuisine=bubble_tea for Chatime
>
> https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index/blob/c0b65aacf04be6753f6e7e82007399bee1e65fdc/brands/amenity/cafe.json#L314-L329
> as well as Gong Cha, Sharetea, and a few others.
>

Seems reasonable, if they have seats and they also serve food.

>
> I would suggest using an amenity tag rather than a shop tag since it's
> much more like a cafe or a fast food place than a store.
>

I can see that it's more like fast food since the stuff has to be prepared.
But then I think "Starbucks."  Have we already standardized on a way
of tagging somewhere without seats that sells takeaway coffee?

>
> In a bubble tea place you place an order and it is prepared and served to
> you.
>

So like a place that sells takeaway coffee but the list of beverages
is different.  If we have a way of mapping coffee takeaways then
use that with drink:bubble_tea=yes.  If we don't have a way of mapping
coffee takeaways then we probably need one that can,deal with coffee,
bubble tea and whatever else with appropriate drink:*=*.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 11:50, Paul Allen  wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 16:31, 德泉 談 via Tagging  
> wrote:
>>
>> I've drafted a new proposal about the bubble tea shops which are very common 
>> in Taiwan which are usually mismapped as shop=beverages
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Dbubble_tea
>
>
> Looking at your proposal, I fail to see how these are not shop=beverages.

Have you seen a bubble tea shop?

It's basically a cafe. It prepares drinks to order. Best tagging I've
seen around me is amenity=cafe + cuisine=bubble_tea

See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Acuisine%3Dbubble_tea -
per https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/cuisine=bubble_tea it's not
very common but for example iD presets have amenity=cafe +
cuisine=bubble_tea for Chatime
https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index/blob/c0b65aacf04be6753f6e7e82007399bee1e65fdc/brands/amenity/cafe.json#L314-L329
as well as Gong Cha, Sharetea, and a few others.

I would suggest using an amenity tag rather than a shop tag since it's
much more like a cafe or a fast food place than a store.

> Your proposal mentions several features that I do not see as being
> unique to bubble tea shops or excluding beverage shops.  Beverage
> shops may supply fresh tea and juice.

But usually they do not. Example picture on
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dbeverages looks exactly
what I would consider a German "beverage shop" (Getränkemarkt) - it
sells already prepared and packaged drinks in bottles, cans, or jugs,
in a supermarket style where customers pick up their selection and
bring it to a cashier.

In a bubble tea place you place an order and it is prepared and served to you.

If a pharmacy is not a shop in OSM, neither should a bubble tea place.

--Jarek

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bubble_tea

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 at 16:31, 德泉 談 via Tagging 
wrote:

> I've drafted a new proposal about the bubble tea shops which are very
> common in Taiwan which are usually mismapped as shop=beverages
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/shop%3Dbubble_tea


Looking at your proposal, I fail to see how these are not shop=beverages.

>From your proposal: "The tag shop
=bubble_tea

describe shops providing freshly
made bubble tea, juice, milk tea or other beverages." So it sells beverages.
Bubble tea, juice, and milk tea are beverages.  "Other beverages" are,
somewhat obviously, beverages.  It is a shop selling beverages.  One
of those beverages is bubble tea, but it is a shop selling beverages.

Your proposal mentions several features that I do not see as being
unique to bubble tea shops or excluding beverage shops.  Beverage
shops may supply fresh tea and juice.  Beverage shops may be,
and usually are, takeaway only.  Delivery service is not common
for beverage shops in general but, unless all bubble tea shops
deliver then it is better handled with delivery=yes|no (actually,
it's better handled with delivery=yes|no anyway).

The example in your proposal explicitly lists the beverages sold,
and explicitly has takeaway=only.  I fail to see how making this
shop=bubble_tea rather than shop=beverage accomplishes
anything.

About the only thing I see useful in your proposal is that having
shop=bubble_tea allows a way of searching for shops that
sell bubble tea.  But your example has drink:bubble_tea=yes
which provides a way of searching for shops that sell bubble
tea.  Having shop=bubble_tea seems unnecessary.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see any point to this.

-- 
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