Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[European Water Project]

Hi Paul,

I am hopeful that some of the users looking to fill their reusable water
bottle might take the time to take pictures of fountains already showing up
on the map.  That is the limit of my expectations.

If a user wants to add a new fountain, we point them to our instruction
page written in 7 languages which explain how to create an OpenStreetMap
account and how to create or edit a fountain object in osm. This was done
with the help from quite a few people: ...
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_CH/Project/European_Water_Project

I think I will add a copyright release message when taking the picture ...
maybe that will help for wikimedia. Thanks for the suggestion !

Best regards,

Stuart



On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 20:33, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 18:54, European Water Project <
> europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I hope you are partially wrong and that we attract non-OSM contributors
>> as well.  But I am not sufficiently confident to bet against you  :)))
>>
>
> You seem to be hoping that people who use your app to find these places
> will,
> if they encounter such a place that isn't in your app, use your app to add
> it.  It's
> possible.  It would be unreasonable to expect casual users to create
> OSM and Wikimedia accounts just to add a new object.
>
> The other possibility is that people will deliberately seek out such
> objects
> to add them to the app.  At least some of them will be of the type who
> could be encouraged to create OSM and Wikimedia accounts.  But that's
> a barrier to entry, so there won't be many people willing to do that.
>
> Assuming you have enough server space to hold uploaded images
> then have your app note the details and store the image, and put the
> POI into a queue to be processed by volunteers who are willing to create
> an OSM account.  I think a queue on your server for volunteers to
> process is better than dropping notes all over the map.  It's
> certainly cleaner for mappers.  And it means your volunteers don't have
> to inspect every note to see if it's one they should deal with.
>
> You might be able to come up with a copyright release for images
> uploaded to your app that would let your volunteers then put them
> on Wikimedia under some sort of blanket approval, but I wouldn't
> bet on it.  You'd have to ask Wikimedia about that.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 18:54, European Water Project <
europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I hope you are partially wrong and that we attract non-OSM contributors as
> well.  But I am not sufficiently confident to bet against you  :)))
>

You seem to be hoping that people who use your app to find these places
will,
if they encounter such a place that isn't in your app, use your app to add
it.  It's
possible.  It would be unreasonable to expect casual users to create
OSM and Wikimedia accounts just to add a new object.

The other possibility is that people will deliberately seek out such objects
to add them to the app.  At least some of them will be of the type who
could be encouraged to create OSM and Wikimedia accounts.  But that's
a barrier to entry, so there won't be many people willing to do that.

Assuming you have enough server space to hold uploaded images
then have your app note the details and store the image, and put the
POI into a queue to be processed by volunteers who are willing to create
an OSM account.  I think a queue on your server for volunteers to
process is better than dropping notes all over the map.  It's
certainly cleaner for mappers.  And it means your volunteers don't have
to inspect every note to see if it's one they should deal with.

You might be able to come up with a copyright release for images
uploaded to your app that would let your volunteers then put them
on Wikimedia under some sort of blanket approval, but I wouldn't
bet on it.  You'd have to ask Wikimedia about that.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[European Water Project]

> frankly, I expect people that will contribute to your project to also have
> these accounts, because it's always the same kind of people ;-) ).
>
>
I hope you are partially wrong and that we attract non-OSM contributors as
well.  But I am not sufficiently confident to bet against you  :)))

Have a good evening.

Stuart

>
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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

May 19, 2020, 17:11 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:

> frankly, I expect people that will contribute to your project to also have 
> these accounts, because it's always the same kind of people ;-) ). 
>
+1

> A low hurdle possibility for OSM would be the creation of notes
>
If you fall back onto it - then notes with photos are much more useful, 
actionable
and more likely to be solved (see brilliant image handling in StreetComplete 
notes)

Still, I would strongly encourage users to create an OSM accounts.
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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Di., 19. Mai 2020 um 17:01 Uhr schrieb European Water Project <
europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com>:

> Hi Martin,
>
> Thank you for your message.
>
> I see where you are coming from, but forcing our contributors who want to
> take a photo of a fountain via our app to have wikimedia and openstreet map
> accounts while understandable is a non-starter.
>


sure, it could be an optional for those who do have these accounts
(frankly, I expect people that will contribute to your project to also have
these accounts, because it's always the same kind of people ;-) ). You
could still fallback to anonymous contributions if the people do not have
these accounts (maybe you can also upload pictures to commons by just
revealing your IP address?). A low hurdle possibility for OSM would be the
creation of notes (can be created anonymously, but also for notes it is
better to have an account attached to it, so you get feedback and can
answer questions).

Notes have the advantage that there is a very low hurdle to create them,
but they require additional action by our contributors, and they are not
attached to an object but to a position.

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[European Water Project]

Hi Martin,

Thank you for your message.

I see where you are coming from, but forcing our contributors who want to
take a photo of a fountain via our app to have wikimedia and openstreet map
accounts while understandable is a non-starter. We added this image capture
feature in large part due to overcome this barrier issue.  All fountain
images that are captured via other tools, added to wikimedia commons and
linked to osm objects are welcome.

It seems like the best solution is to keep the geotagged images on our
server and serve them with an open license or via Mapillary. For the OSM
edits, the only edit I plan to be doing for fountains which I have not
visited myself will be adding an image tag ... and this will not be done
realtime but only after a manual curation of the images ... (ie weeding out
those which don't belong).

I like the idea of adding in the future a more complex fountain edit page
for fountains which requires an oauth identification.

Best regards,

Stuart

On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 16:30, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> Am Di., 19. Mai 2020 um 13:30 Uhr schrieb European Water Project <
> europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com>:
>
>> Hi Martin,
>>
>> you can store an image link on the OpenStreetMap object, this is also
>> usable to find the object after someone has copied the tags to another
>> object (e.g. node-> way/relation transformations), it will break if both,
>> the image changes and the OpenStreetMap id changes. Mappers might also
>> refrain from transferring the tags to e.g. a building if the image
>> explicitly refers to just something inside the building and is not suitable
>> for the whole building.
>>
>> Agree this is a good solution ... and if I can automate a way to bulk
>> move the images to wikimedia commons, after manual curation, and add an
>> image link to the photo in the osm object that would be best.
>>
>>
>
> ideally your webapp would upload (as the user that is using it) to
> wikimedia commons and the name that commons confirms would be added via the
> OSM Api (oauth) to the osm object (again as the contributing user).
> The problem of batch upload is that a) you would be misrepresenting the
> authorship of the image in commons (acting on their behalf), and similarly
> b) on OSM it would not be individual users but a collective account which
> modifies the data (we prefer the editing user being the author, so that we
> ask questions back, and because it might make fighting vandalism easier).
>
> Cheers
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Di., 19. Mai 2020 um 13:30 Uhr schrieb European Water Project <
europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com>:

> Hi Martin,
>
> you can store an image link on the OpenStreetMap object, this is also
> usable to find the object after someone has copied the tags to another
> object (e.g. node-> way/relation transformations), it will break if both,
> the image changes and the OpenStreetMap id changes. Mappers might also
> refrain from transferring the tags to e.g. a building if the image
> explicitly refers to just something inside the building and is not suitable
> for the whole building.
>
> Agree this is a good solution ... and if I can automate a way to bulk
> move the images to wikimedia commons, after manual curation, and add an
> image link to the photo in the osm object that would be best.
>
>

ideally your webapp would upload (as the user that is using it) to
wikimedia commons and the name that commons confirms would be added via the
OSM Api (oauth) to the osm object (again as the contributing user).
The problem of batch upload is that a) you would be misrepresenting the
authorship of the image in commons (acting on their behalf), and similarly
b) on OSM it would not be individual users but a collective account which
modifies the data (we prefer the editing user being the author, so that we
ask questions back, and because it might make fighting vandalism easier).

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[European Water Project]

Hi Jo,

Images are coming for fountains from multiple cities in multiple countries
at the moment and we are still in the testing phase (during COVID) and
haven't communicated about the feature on FB.

Manually clicking on the remote control JOSM or ID editor from the
Mapillary site for each image is not a long term solution.

I currently create an object like this for each fountain image matched to
an osm object ... I would like to automate the osm image link addition via
API.

{
  "type": "Feature",
  "properties": {
"mapillary": "ofr9UjZn4ammjewdPnGIGA",
"coordinates": [
  6.0741278,
  46.2972417
]
  },
  "distance": 3.4971297779106982,
  "osm_id": 3413495243,
  "osm_coordinates": [
6.0741059,
46.297219
  ],
  "ignore": true
}

Best regards,

Stuart

On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 14:43, Jo  wrote:

> JOSM's Mapillary plugin makes it easy to add mapillary tags to OSM
> objects. On the Mapillary site it's possible to remote control JOSM so it
> opens with data around the image.
>
> I agree that it's not entirely convenient and may be slow. But Mapillary
> welcomes ALL geotagged images. On Wikimedia Commons a contributor may
> consider your picture not noteworthy enough or violating Panorama Rights, I
> forget the correct term.
>
> Polyglot
>
> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 2:30 PM European Water Project <
> europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jo and Paul,
>>
>> I am currently uploading the images to Mapillary  but
>>
>>  the workflow is painful and will only get more painful if the image
>> volume picks up. There is no image receipt on upload so all the images get
>> renamed.
>>
>> I get links to the uploaded images using the mapillary api and find the
>> closest fountain in the osm database .. and then am currently manually
>> editing the osm objects.
>>
>> For the second part of this process, whether the images stay on our
>> server, go to commons or on mapillary :
>>
>> If I want to  be able to edit the nodes and add the image links using the
>> OSM api directly without using ID or JOSM:  in layman terms, I need to make
>> a oauth 1.0a connection and then pass commands to the OSM API by passing
>> back and forth json objects ? (I have no idea to do any of this, but it
>> could be a good challenge).
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Stuart
>>
>> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 14:24, Paul Allen  wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 13:09, Jo  wrote:
>>>
 Another possibility is to add the image to Mapillary and then use the
 mapillary tag to refer to it.

>>>
>>> I find Mapillary to be so slow as to be unusable.  I think it's more
>>> that my
>>> computer doesn't have enough memory to handle all the funky stuff
>>> Mapillary does without extensive swapping, but it's such a pain I never
>>> bother with it.  If you're happy for people to die of thirst whilst
>>> waiting for
>>> mapillary to display...
>>>
>>> --
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> ___
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>>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[Jo]

JOSM's Mapillary plugin makes it easy to add mapillary tags to OSM objects.
On the Mapillary site it's possible to remote control JOSM so it opens with
data around the image.

I agree that it's not entirely convenient and may be slow. But Mapillary
welcomes ALL geotagged images. On Wikimedia Commons a contributor may
consider your picture not noteworthy enough or violating Panorama Rights, I
forget the correct term.

Polyglot

On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 2:30 PM European Water Project <
europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Jo and Paul,
>
> I am currently uploading the images to Mapillary  but
>
>  the workflow is painful and will only get more painful if the image
> volume picks up. There is no image receipt on upload so all the images get
> renamed.
>
> I get links to the uploaded images using the mapillary api and find the
> closest fountain in the osm database .. and then am currently manually
> editing the osm objects.
>
> For the second part of this process, whether the images stay on our
> server, go to commons or on mapillary :
>
> If I want to  be able to edit the nodes and add the image links using the
> OSM api directly without using ID or JOSM:  in layman terms, I need to make
> a oauth 1.0a connection and then pass commands to the OSM API by passing
> back and forth json objects ? (I have no idea to do any of this, but it
> could be a good challenge).
>
> Best regards,
>
> Stuart
>
> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 14:24, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 13:09, Jo  wrote:
>>
>>> Another possibility is to add the image to Mapillary and then use the
>>> mapillary tag to refer to it.
>>>
>>
>> I find Mapillary to be so slow as to be unusable.  I think it's more that
>> my
>> computer doesn't have enough memory to handle all the funky stuff
>> Mapillary does without extensive swapping, but it's such a pain I never
>> bother with it.  If you're happy for people to die of thirst whilst
>> waiting for
>> mapillary to display...
>>
>> --
>> Paul
>>
>> ___
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>>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[European Water Project]

Hi Jo and Paul,

I am currently uploading the images to Mapillary  but

 the workflow is painful and will only get more painful if the image volume
picks up. There is no image receipt on upload so all the images get
renamed.

I get links to the uploaded images using the mapillary api and find the
closest fountain in the osm database .. and then am currently manually
editing the osm objects.

For the second part of this process, whether the images stay on our server,
go to commons or on mapillary :

If I want to  be able to edit the nodes and add the image links using the
OSM api directly without using ID or JOSM:  in layman terms, I need to make
a oauth 1.0a connection and then pass commands to the OSM API by passing
back and forth json objects ? (I have no idea to do any of this, but it
could be a good challenge).

Best regards,

Stuart

On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 14:24, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 13:09, Jo  wrote:
>
>> Another possibility is to add the image to Mapillary and then use the
>> mapillary tag to refer to it.
>>
>
> I find Mapillary to be so slow as to be unusable.  I think it's more that
> my
> computer doesn't have enough memory to handle all the funky stuff
> Mapillary does without extensive swapping, but it's such a pain I never
> bother with it.  If you're happy for people to die of thirst whilst
> waiting for
> mapillary to display...
>
> --
> Paul
>
> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 13:09, Jo  wrote:

> Another possibility is to add the image to Mapillary and then use the
> mapillary tag to refer to it.
>

I find Mapillary to be so slow as to be unusable.  I think it's more that my
computer doesn't have enough memory to handle all the funky stuff
Mapillary does without extensive swapping, but it's such a pain I never
bother with it.  If you're happy for people to die of thirst whilst waiting
for
mapillary to display...

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 12:56, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
> May 19, 2020, 13:38 by pla16...@gmail.com:
>
> Wikimedia Commons is a good solution because (with a few exceptions such
> as copyright violations) the image is there forever and the URL won't
> change.
>
> Images can be moved, redirects are sometimes not kept..
>

I did say "with few exceptions."  I consider Wikimedia to be a lot more
stable than most sites at the whims of their operators.  Many are savvy
enough not to arbitrarily rename or delete web pages (so they don't
adversely
affect their google ranking) but images are often replaced or
deleted.  Yesterday I wanted to point somebody to an image of an old
AA sign that had some historical significance (it is also part of
the story in identifying Cilrhiwiau as the pre-WWII name of Capel
Dewi) but the site operator had inexplicably removed it.  My county council
are not only stupid enough to delete images, they completely deleted a whole
set of historical web pages in preparation for a multi-year process of
re-cataloguing the data.  Can anyone say "301 redirect"?  Not at
Ceredigion County Council.  Can anyone say "Keep each existing page
until its replacement is available"?  I think you can guess the answer.

So my preference is for Wikimedia, which doesn't arbitrarily remove images
because they get bored with them, or marketing decides to replace them, or
the site operator goes bankrupt, or...  These days I also trust Geograph for
stable (ish) images.  Either or both of those could go bust, but I think
there
are too many interests dependent on the Wikimedia Foundation for that
to happen.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[Jo]

Another possibility is to add the image to Mapillary and then use the
mapillary tag to refer to it.

On Tue, May 19, 2020, 14:05 Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
>
>
> May 19, 2020, 13:41 by europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com:
>
> >Is it possible to use an API to add image tags to osm objects  ?
>  Adding image tags to each of the objects would be the best solution.
>
> Every single OSM edit is done via OSM API.
>
> So, you can make OSM editor editing also image tag.
>
> Note that you need to handle (for example) already present image tag
> and host images somewhere.
>
> image tag (or wikimedia_commons tag) is solely a link.
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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

May 19, 2020, 13:41 by europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com:

> >Is it possible to use an API to add image tags to osm objects  ?   
> >Adding image tags to each of the objects would be the best solution.  
>
Every single OSM edit is done via OSM API.

So, you can make OSM editor editing also image tag.
Note that you need to handle (for example) already present image tag
and host images somewhere.

image tag (or wikimedia_commons tag) is solely a link.
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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

May 19, 2020, 12:01 by europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com:

> If I understand correctly, I can query the database for historic data states. 
>  For how long is the historic data maintained ? 
>
In overpass? Forever, except data before license change.
In OSM? Forever, you can get also data before license change.
In general, full history is accessible (except redaction done primarily 
for copyright reasons)

> Do all of the servers below have the historic data ?
>
No idea. You would need to check.

>
> '> https://lz4.overpass-api.de/api/interpreter> '; 
> ' > https://overpass-api.de/api/interpreter> ';
> '> https://overpass.kumi.systems/api/interpreter> ';
> '> http://overpass.openstreetmap.fr/api/interpreter> ';
> '> https://z.overpass-api.de/api/interpreter> ';
> '> https://overpass.nchc.org.tw> ';
>

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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

May 19, 2020, 13:38 by pla16...@gmail.com:

> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 12:30, European Water Project <> 
> europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>
>>
>> Agree this is a good solution ... and if I can automate a way to bulk 
>> move the images to wikimedia commons, after manual curation, and add an 
>> image link to the photo in the osm object that would be best.  
>>
>
> Wikimedia Commons is a good solution because (with a few exceptions such
> as copyright violations) the image is there forever and the URL won't change.
>
Images can be moved, redirects are sometimes not kept..

> However, there are potential difficulties if you are uploading images you
> did not create yourself.  This may be harder to deal with than automating
> the upload process.
>
Yes, please check WIkimedia Commons rules before doing that.

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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[European Water Project]

On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 13:12, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 11:50, European Water Project <
> europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I do not want to send people to the node on OpenStreetMap via a url ... I
>> agree this would not be friendly to the user experience.
>>
>
> It's better than nothing, but not a lot better.
>



>
>> There are two places where it would be helpful to have a permanent id
>> associated with the osm object.
>>
>> 1) When a contributeur takes a  picture of a fountain via the web app
>> image capture feature :
>> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1XbYC1xwsjCySv1g9LPHx3zX07SNtCeuI
>> It would be nice to give a "permanent" link to the image to the user so
>> that they can save the image and share it with friends. I currently save
>> the image with a name closely related to the osm node id.
>>
>
> I'm not impressed by the way that link displays the image, but if that's
> all you have
> then that's all you have.
>

>Well, it allows the user to see the object image immediately after
taking the picture.



> Why not add it to the node as image=*?
>

>Is it possible to use an API to add image tags to osm objects  ?
 Adding image tags to each of the objects would be the best solution.



>
> 2) I would like to create a permanent link which when clicked takes the
>> user to a map centered at the osm object and then overlays a small popup
>> with the object features (including the image).
>>
>
> Assuming you can find the node in the first place, then you can find its
> location, and from that display the map.  Here is a node for a cafe
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3257861861 with location displayed as
> a link.  Here is what I get by clicking on that link:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/52.08045/-4.65684
>


> It gets harder to find the location for a cafe mapped as a building.  But
> visiting one of the nodes of the object will get you close enough.
>

 I have a mental road map for doing this if the ids are permanent and I
don't have a means of attaching the images directly on the object.

>
> The simpler the solution the better.
>>
>
> Maybe the source code for
>
> http://gk.historic.place/historische_objekte/l/en/index.html?zoom=18=52.08193=-4.66055=3=HaHbHcSaHe
>  can give you some ideas.  He highlights historical=* and heritage=*,
> clicking
> on them gives things like
>
> http://gk.historic.place/historische_objekte/l/en/index.html?zoom=18=52.08209=-4.66055=3=HaHbHcSaHe=n5388183063
>
>

> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 12:30, European Water Project <
europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Agree this is a good solution ... and if I can automate a way to bulk
> move the images to wikimedia commons, after manual curation, and add an
> image link to the photo in the osm object that would be best.
>

Wikimedia Commons is a good solution because (with a few exceptions such
as copyright violations) the image is there forever and the URL won't
change.
If you do put the images on Wikimedia then use wikimedia_commons=*
rather than image=*.

However, there are potential difficulties if you are uploading images you
did not create yourself.  This may be harder to deal with than automating
the upload process.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[European Water Project]

Hi Martin,

you can store an image link on the OpenStreetMap object, this is also
usable to find the object after someone has copied the tags to another
object (e.g. node-> way/relation transformations), it will break if both,
the image changes and the OpenStreetMap id changes. Mappers might also
refrain from transferring the tags to e.g. a building if the image
explicitly refers to just something inside the building and is not suitable
for the whole building.

Agree this is a good solution ... and if I can automate a way to bulk
move the images to wikimedia commons, after manual curation, and add an
image link to the photo in the osm object that would be best.



On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 13:00, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> >> On 19. May 2020, at 12:50, European Water Project <
> europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The simpler the solution the better.
>
>
> you can store an image link on the OpenStreetMap object, this is also
> usable to find the object after someone has copied the tags to another
> object (e.g. node-> way/relation transformations), it will break if both,
> the image changes and the OpenStreetMap id changes. Mappers might also
> refrain from transferring the tags to e.g. a building if the image
> explicitly refers to just something inside the building and is not suitable
> for the whole building.
>
> Cheers Martin
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 11:50, European Water Project <
europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I do not want to send people to the node on OpenStreetMap via a url ... I
> agree this would not be friendly to the user experience.
>

It's better than nothing, but not a lot better.

>
> There are two places where it would be helpful to have a permanent id
> associated with the osm object.
>
> 1) When a contributeur takes a  picture of a fountain via the web app
> image capture feature :
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1XbYC1xwsjCySv1g9LPHx3zX07SNtCeuI
> It would be nice to give a "permanent" link to the image to the user so
> that they can save the image and share it with friends. I currently save
> the image with a name closely related to the osm node id.
>

I'm not impressed by the way that link displays the image, but if that's
all you have
then that's all you have.  Why not add it to the node as image=*?

2) I would like to create a permanent link which when clicked takes the
> user to a map centered at the osm object and then overlays a small popup
> with the object features (including the image).
>

Assuming you can find the node in the first place, then you can find its
location, and from that display the map.  Here is a node for a cafe
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3257861861 with location displayed as
a link.  Here is what I get by clicking on that link:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/52.08045/-4.65684

It gets harder to find the location for a cafe mapped as a building.  But
visiting one of the nodes of the object will get you close enough.

The simpler the solution the better.
>

Maybe the source code for
http://gk.historic.place/historische_objekte/l/en/index.html?zoom=18=52.08193=-4.66055=3=HaHbHcSaHe
 can give you some ideas.  He highlights historical=* and heritage=*,
clicking
on them gives things like
http://gk.historic.place/historische_objekte/l/en/index.html?zoom=18=52.08209=-4.66055=3=HaHbHcSaHe=n5388183063

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[Yves]

Why not georeferencing the image in your DB, and query for the closest osm 
'fountain' on request?
Yves 

Le 19 mai 2020 12:47:18 GMT+02:00, European Water Project 
 a écrit :
>Hi Paul,
>
>Thanks for asking.
>
>I do not want to send people to the node on OpenStreetMap via a url ...
>I
>agree this would not be friendly to the user experience.
>
>There are two places where it would be helpful to have a permanent id
>associated with the osm object.
>
>1) When a contributeur takes a  picture of a fountain via the web app
>image
>capture feature :
>https://drive.google.com/open?id=1XbYC1xwsjCySv1g9LPHx3zX07SNtCeuI
>It would be nice to give a "permanent" link to the image to the user so
>that they can save the image and share it with friends. I currently
>save
>the image with a name closely related to the osm node id.
>
>2) I would like to create a permanent link which when clicked takes the
>user to a map centered at the osm object and then overlays a small
>popup
>with the object features (including the image).
>
>The simpler the solution the better.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Stuart
>
>
>On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 12:36, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 08:46, European Water Project <
>> europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I am looking for a way to create permanent links  to specific
>objects
>>> (fountains and cafés) with images within our application
>>>
>>
>> Erm, why?  What do you hope to achieve by this?
>>
>> Do you intend to present the user with a clickable link that opens in
>a
>> browser?  Sure,
>> you can turn the node ID into a URL that displays the POI, but it
>includes
>> a pane at
>> the left with details that many users would find confusing.
>>
>> Or do you intend that your app queries the link internally, filters
>the
>> returned
>> information and then presents that filtered information to the user?
>>
>> Ot is it just so you can display a map with a pin on the node?
>>
>> Depending on what you're trying to do, what you're asking about may
>not be
>> the best way of achieving it.
>>
>> --
>> Paul
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

>> On 19. May 2020, at 12:50, European Water Project 
>>  wrote:
> The simpler the solution the better. 


you can store an image link on the OpenStreetMap object, this is also usable to 
find the object after someone has copied the tags to another object (e.g. 
node-> way/relation transformations), it will break if both, the image changes 
and the OpenStreetMap id changes. Mappers might also refrain from transferring 
the tags to e.g. a building if the image explicitly refers to just something 
inside the building and is not suitable for the whole building.

Cheers Martin 


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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[European Water Project]

Hi Paul,

Thanks for asking.

I do not want to send people to the node on OpenStreetMap via a url ... I
agree this would not be friendly to the user experience.

There are two places where it would be helpful to have a permanent id
associated with the osm object.

1) When a contributeur takes a  picture of a fountain via the web app image
capture feature :
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1XbYC1xwsjCySv1g9LPHx3zX07SNtCeuI
It would be nice to give a "permanent" link to the image to the user so
that they can save the image and share it with friends. I currently save
the image with a name closely related to the osm node id.

2) I would like to create a permanent link which when clicked takes the
user to a map centered at the osm object and then overlays a small popup
with the object features (including the image).

The simpler the solution the better.

Best regards,

Stuart


On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 12:36, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 08:46, European Water Project <
> europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I am looking for a way to create permanent links  to specific objects
>> (fountains and cafés) with images within our application
>>
>
> Erm, why?  What do you hope to achieve by this?
>
> Do you intend to present the user with a clickable link that opens in a
> browser?  Sure,
> you can turn the node ID into a URL that displays the POI, but it includes
> a pane at
> the left with details that many users would find confusing.
>
> Or do you intend that your app queries the link internally, filters the
> returned
> information and then presents that filtered information to the user?
>
> Ot is it just so you can display a map with a pin on the node?
>
> Depending on what you're trying to do, what you're asking about may not be
> the best way of achieving it.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 08:46, European Water Project <
europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I am looking for a way to create permanent links  to specific objects
> (fountains and cafés) with images within our application
>

Erm, why?  What do you hope to achieve by this?

Do you intend to present the user with a clickable link that opens in a
browser?  Sure,
you can turn the node ID into a URL that displays the POI, but it includes
a pane at
the left with details that many users would find confusing.

Or do you intend that your app queries the link internally, filters the
returned
information and then presents that filtered information to the user?

Ot is it just so you can display a map with a pin on the node?

Depending on what you're trying to do, what you're asking about may not be
the best way of achieving it.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[Simon Poole]

Am 19.05.2020 um 12:01 schrieb European Water Project:
> ...
> Dear Simon,
>
> What do you mean by  "+ version" ? Are you referring to a timestamp or
> a something else ?

The version of the object, so lets look at

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/416064315 (version 7)

But you could equally simply lookup

https://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/node/416064315/7

or if you had an older version

https://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/node/416064315/4 (version 4)

these links are guaranteed to always return the same object, frozen in time.

Simon


>
> For ways, which I am only starting to look to consider, maybe I could
> look for objects with a similar geometric center for the replacement
> object. 
>
> Best regards,
>
> Stuart 
>
>
> On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 11:41, Simon Poole  > wrote:
>
> It should be noted that (for Nodes) id + version is actually
> stable (Ways and Relations are more complicated).
>
> So if you have id + version, you can
>
> - check that it is the current version of the object (all fine and
> dandy)
>
> - check if there is a later (undeleted) version, check if it
> (depending on your criteria) is still the "same object", update
> version in your reference
>
> - if the last version is deleted or your criteria for it being the
> same object doesn't hold, search in the vicinity for a replacement
> object.
>
> Doing the same for Ways and Relations requires including a
> location reference of some kind as geometry changes are not
> reflected in the versions, but can work in principle the same.
>
> Simon
>
> Am 19.05.2020 um 09:43 schrieb European Water Project:
>> Dear All,
>>
>> I am looking for a way to create permanent links  to specific
>> objects (fountains and cafés) with images within our application
>> ... and I have a couple of questions. 
>>
>> How quickly do OSM node and ways numbers mutate ?  What
>> percentage should I expect to change each year.  If the
>> percentage of ids mutates slowly enough .. maybe this is still
>> the best bad short term option ? 
>>
>> I was pointed to this wiki : 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Permanent_ID  
>>
>> On the discussion page, it is mentioned that a solution is being
>> targeted for end 2020 . Will there be a tool to translate actual
>> osm node and ways numbers to the new permalink ids. 
>>
>> Apparently Mangrove uses GEO URI to create perma links towards
>> objects. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geo_URI_scheme. How do
>> they deal with node repositioning ?  I could create a link name
>> with first 5 latitude num followed by first 5 longitude num...
>> but as soon as someone moves the node I would get a broken link... 
>>
>> Thanks for your help and advice
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Stuart 
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[Warin]

On 19/5/20 8:01 pm, European Water Project wrote:

Thank you all for responding. I've commented in order

Dear François & Jo,

There are 240,000 drinking fountains  nodes (with the two tag forms) 
tagged globally. Although, your suggestion seems a reasonable one, 
unless there is master plan for unique id maintenance, I am loathe to 
adding ref tags which might end up being poorly maintained stale 
pollution.


Dear Mateusz,

If I understand correctly, I can query the database for historic data 
states.  For how long is the historic data maintained ? Do all of the 
servers below have the historic data ?


'https://lz4.overpass-api.de/api/interpreter';
' https://overpass-api.de/api/interpreter';
'https://overpass.kumi.systems/api/interpreter';
'http://overpass.openstreetmap.fr/api/interpreter';
'https://z.overpass-api.de/api/interpreter';
'https://overpass.nchc.org.tw';

Dear Simon,

What do you mean by  "+ version" ? Are you referring to a timestamp or 
a something else ?


The version number.

See https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/173244595#map=18/-33.89163/151.27633

Way 173244595 is presently version 13. Version 1 would be when it was 
first created.




For ways, which I am only starting to look to consider, maybe I could 
look for objects with a similar geometric center for the replacement 
object.


Best regards,

Stuart


On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 11:41, Simon Poole > wrote:


It should be noted that (for Nodes) id + version is actually
stable (Ways and Relations are more complicated).

So if you have id + version, you can

- check that it is the current version of the object (all fine and
dandy)

- check if there is a later (undeleted) version, check if it
(depending on your criteria) is still the "same object", update
version in your reference

- if the last version is deleted or your criteria for it being the
same object doesn't hold, search in the vicinity for a replacement
object.

Doing the same for Ways and Relations requires including a
location reference of some kind as geometry changes are not
reflected in the versions, but can work in principle the same.

Simon

Am 19.05.2020 um 09:43 schrieb European Water Project:

Dear All,

I am looking for a way to create permanent links  to specific
objects (fountains and cafés) with images within our application
... and I have a couple of questions.

How quickly do OSM node and ways numbers mutate ?  What
percentage should I expect to change each year.  If the
percentage of ids mutates slowly enough .. maybe this is still
the best bad short term option ?

I was pointed to this wiki :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Permanent_ID

On the discussion page, it is mentioned that a solution is being
targeted for end 2020 . Will there be a tool to translate actual
osm node and ways numbers to the new permalink ids.

Apparently Mangrove uses GEO URI to create perma links towards
objects. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geo_URI_scheme. How do
they deal with node repositioning ?  I could create a link name
with first 5 latitude num followed by first 5 longitude num...
but as soon as someone moves the node I would get a broken link...

Thanks for your help and advice

Best regards,

Stuart



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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[European Water Project]

Thank you all for responding. I've commented in order

Dear François & Jo,

There are 240,000 drinking fountains  nodes (with the two tag forms) tagged
globally. Although, your suggestion seems a reasonable one, unless there is
master plan for unique id maintenance,  I am loathe to adding ref tags
which might end up being poorly maintained stale pollution.

Dear Mateusz,

If I understand correctly, I can query the database for historic data
states.  For how long is the historic data maintained ?  Do all of the
servers below have the historic data ?

'https://lz4.overpass-api.de/api/interpreter';
' https://overpass-api.de/api/interpreter';
'https://overpass.kumi.systems/api/interpreter';
'http://overpass.openstreetmap.fr/api/interpreter';
'https://z.overpass-api.de/api/interpreter';
'https://overpass.nchc.org.tw';

Dear Simon,

What do you mean by  "+ version" ? Are you referring to a timestamp or a
something else ?

For ways, which I am only starting to look to consider, maybe I could look
for objects with a similar geometric center for the replacement object.

Best regards,

Stuart


On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 11:41, Simon Poole  wrote:

> It should be noted that (for Nodes) id + version is actually stable (Ways
> and Relations are more complicated).
>
> So if you have id + version, you can
>
> - check that it is the current version of the object (all fine and dandy)
>
> - check if there is a later (undeleted) version, check if it (depending on
> your criteria) is still the "same object", update version in your reference
>
> - if the last version is deleted or your criteria for it being the same
> object doesn't hold, search in the vicinity for a replacement object.
>
> Doing the same for Ways and Relations requires including a location
> reference of some kind as geometry changes are not reflected in the
> versions, but can work in principle the same.
>
> Simon
> Am 19.05.2020 um 09:43 schrieb European Water Project:
>
> Dear All,
>
> I am looking for a way to create permanent links  to specific objects
> (fountains and cafés) with images within our application ... and I have a
> couple of questions.
>
> How quickly do OSM node and ways numbers mutate ?  What percentage should
> I expect to change each year.  If the percentage of ids mutates slowly
> enough .. maybe this is still the best bad short term option ?
>
> I was pointed to this wiki :
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Permanent_ID
>
> On the discussion page, it is mentioned that a solution is being targeted
> for end 2020 . Will there be a tool to translate actual osm node and ways
> numbers to the new permalink ids.
>
> Apparently Mangrove uses GEO URI to create perma links towards objects.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geo_URI_scheme. How do they deal with node
> repositioning ?  I could create a link name with first 5 latitude num
> followed by first 5 longitude num... but as soon as someone moves the node
> I would get a broken link...
>
> Thanks for your help and advice
>
> Best regards,
>
> Stuart
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[Jo]

If the fountains don't have identifiers that are suitable for ref, you may
be able to add them to wikidata (if they are 'notable' enough for that
project and you have permission to add them to a cc0 licensed project). You
can only do that for fountains that YOU have added yourself though, you
can't add them to wikidata if someone else mapped them, due to license
incompatibility between ODBL and cc0.

Polyglot.

On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 11:41 AM Simon Poole  wrote:

> It should be noted that (for Nodes) id + version is actually stable (Ways
> and Relations are more complicated).
>
> So if you have id + version, you can
>
> - check that it is the current version of the object (all fine and dandy)
>
> - check if there is a later (undeleted) version, check if it (depending on
> your criteria) is still the "same object", update version in your reference
>
> - if the last version is deleted or your criteria for it being the same
> object doesn't hold, search in the vicinity for a replacement object.
>
> Doing the same for Ways and Relations requires including a location
> reference of some kind as geometry changes are not reflected in the
> versions, but can work in principle the same.
>
> Simon
> Am 19.05.2020 um 09:43 schrieb European Water Project:
>
> Dear All,
>
> I am looking for a way to create permanent links  to specific objects
> (fountains and cafés) with images within our application ... and I have a
> couple of questions.
>
> How quickly do OSM node and ways numbers mutate ?  What percentage should
> I expect to change each year.  If the percentage of ids mutates slowly
> enough .. maybe this is still the best bad short term option ?
>
> I was pointed to this wiki :
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Permanent_ID
>
> On the discussion page, it is mentioned that a solution is being targeted
> for end 2020 . Will there be a tool to translate actual osm node and ways
> numbers to the new permalink ids.
>
> Apparently Mangrove uses GEO URI to create perma links towards objects.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geo_URI_scheme. How do they deal with node
> repositioning ?  I could create a link name with first 5 latitude num
> followed by first 5 longitude num... but as soon as someone moves the node
> I would get a broken link...
>
> Thanks for your help and advice
>
> Best regards,
>
> Stuart
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[Simon Poole]

It should be noted that (for Nodes) id + version is actually stable
(Ways and Relations are more complicated).

So if you have id + version, you can

- check that it is the current version of the object (all fine and dandy)

- check if there is a later (undeleted) version, check if it (depending
on your criteria) is still the "same object", update version in your
reference

- if the last version is deleted or your criteria for it being the same
object doesn't hold, search in the vicinity for a replacement object.

Doing the same for Ways and Relations requires including a location
reference of some kind as geometry changes are not reflected in the
versions, but can work in principle the same.

Simon

Am 19.05.2020 um 09:43 schrieb European Water Project:
> Dear All,
>
> I am looking for a way to create permanent links  to specific objects
> (fountains and cafés) with images within our application ... and I
> have a couple of questions. 
>
> How quickly do OSM node and ways numbers mutate ?  What percentage
> should I expect to change each year.  If the percentage of ids mutates
> slowly enough .. maybe this is still the best bad short term option ? 
>
> I was pointed to this wiki : 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Permanent_ID  
>
> On the discussion page, it is mentioned that a solution is being
> targeted for end 2020 . Will there be a tool to translate actual osm
> node and ways numbers to the new permalink ids. 
>
> Apparently Mangrove uses GEO URI to create perma links towards
> objects. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geo_URI_scheme. How do they
> deal with node repositioning ?  I could create a link name with first
> 5 latitude num followed by first 5 longitude num... but as soon as
> someone moves the node I would get a broken link... 
>
> Thanks for your help and advice
>
> Best regards,
>
> Stuart 
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

May 19, 2020, 10:08 by fl.infosrese...@gmail.com:

> We may take advantage that two nodes can't overlap on OSM
>
It is possible to have multiple nodes at exactly the same position.

Mappers will be confused, validator in JOSM will complain but
it is possible to do this.

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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

May 19, 2020, 09:43 by europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com:

> How quickly do OSM node and ways numbers mutate ?  What percentage should I 
> expect to change each year.
>
No idea.

You can check this using
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Overpass_API/Overpass_API_by_Example#OSM_data_at_a_certain_date
(it is a query example displaying state of OSM database at a specific date)

https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/U98 is displaying amenity=drinking_water
data at a specific date after it is run

  If the percentage of ids mutates slowly enough .. maybe this is still the 
best bad short term option ? 

> Apparently Mangrove uses GEO URI to create perma links towards objects. > 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geo_URI_scheme> . How do they deal with node 
> repositioning ?  I could create a link name with first 5 latitude num 
> followed by first 5 longitude num... but as soon as someone moves the node I 
> would get a broken link... 
>
You can try automatically detected moved nodes, and update your link. Still, 
would require some 
manual checks.

In case of water fountains having some official number it can be added as ref.

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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[François Lacombe]

Hi all

As OSM id isn't a stable id (and will never be I think), the only way to
reliably achieve what you want Stuart is to proceed with a ref tag.
It's a long term job and often questioned/refined to best match
codification scheme rolled out on a specific place/local level.

We may take advantage that two nodes can't overlap on OSM, eventually for
nodes but it won't work for ways.

My 2 cts
François

Le mar. 19 mai 2020 à 10:04, Philip Barnes  a écrit :

> On Tue, 2020-05-19 at 09:43 +0200, European Water Project wrote:
>
> Dear All,
>
> I am looking for a way to create permanent links  to specific objects
> (fountains and cafés) with images within our application ... and I have a
> couple of questions.
>
> How quickly do OSM node and ways numbers mutate ?  What percentage should
> I expect to change each year.  If the percentage of ids mutates slowly
> enough .. maybe this is still the best bad short term option ?
>
> I was pointed to this wiki :
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Permanent_ID
>
> On the discussion page, it is mentioned that a solution is being targeted
> for end 2020 . Will there be a tool to translate actual osm node and ways
> numbers to the new permalink ids.
>
> Apparently Mangrove uses GEO URI to create perma links towards objects.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geo_URI_scheme. How do they deal with node
> repositioning ?  I could create a link name with first 5 latitude num
> followed by first 5 longitude num... but as soon as someone moves the node
> I would get a broken link...
>
>
> I think that will depend very heavily on what the object is. Something
> like a drinking fountain that is mapped as a single node and is too small
> to be improved into a way will be quite stable as there is no reason to
> improve it.
>
> Other nodes may change, shops/pubs/restaurants mapped as nodes can
> obviously be improved and the tags transferred to a building object.
>
> Although relying on a node id is not the best way, something based on
> maybe overpass that finds the tags seems a far more stable way to me.
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
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Re: [Tagging] Permanent ID/URI --- off topic email

[Philip Barnes]

On Tue, 2020-05-19 at 09:43 +0200, European Water Project wrote:
> Dear All,
> I am looking for a way to create permanent links  to specific objects
> (fountains and cafés) with images within our application ... and I
> have a couple of questions. 
> 
> How quickly do OSM node and ways numbers mutate ?  What percentage
> should I expect to change each year.  If the percentage of
> ids mutates slowly enough .. maybe this is still the best bad short
> term option ? 
> 
> I was pointed to this wiki : 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Permanent_ID  
> 
> On the discussion page, it is mentioned that a solution is being
> targeted for end 2020 . Will there be a tool to translate actual osm
> node and ways numbers to the new permalink ids. 
> 
> Apparently Mangrove uses GEO URI to create perma links towards
> objects. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geo_URI_scheme. How do they
> deal with node repositioning ?  I could create a link name with first
> 5 latitude num followed by first 5 longitude num... but as soon as
> someone moves the node I would get a broken link... 

I think that will depend very heavily on what the object is. Something
like a drinking fountain that is mapped as a single node and is too
small to be improved into a way will be quite stable as there is no
reason to improve it.

Other nodes may change, shops/pubs/restaurants mapped as nodes can
obviously be improved and the tags transferred to a building object.

Although relying on a node id is not the best way, something based on
maybe overpass that finds the tags seems a far more stable way to me.

Phil (trigpoint)
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