Re: [OSM-talk] Fixing wiki* -> brand:wiki*

[John F. Eldredge]

The spatial information will tell you where each business location is; it 
is not sufficient to tell you whether these are multiple locations of the 
same brand, or two unrelated brands that share the same name and category 
of business.



On September 27, 2017 6:51:32 AM Richard Fairhurst  
wrote:



Andy Mabbett wrote:

in different parts of the world


IIRC OSM stores spatial information. I might be wrong.

Richard



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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[John F. Eldredge]

OSMAND+ already uses a vector-based system to render OSM-data-based maps, 
and has been doing so for some time. So, the technology already exists.



On September 25, 2017 6:22:59 AM Richard Fairhurst  
wrote:



Frederik Ramm wrote:

I'd invest the available brainpower in steps needed to achieve
this goal, even if it's a year or two in the future.


Which means vector tiles... which we should be looking at anyway.

But that needs to be a separate project really, rather than a facet of
openstreetmap-carto.

Richard



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Re: [OSM-talk] Label language on the Default stylesheet

[John F. Eldredge]

People are confusing labels using the Latin alphabet with labels using the 
Latin language.



On September 25, 2017 8:56:04 AM Oleksiy Muzalyev 
 wrote:



On 25.09.17 12:59, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



2017-09-25 12:39 GMT+02:00 Oleksiy Muzalyev
mailto:oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch>>:

The Latin language itself has been for centuries the language of
science, and it remains the language of scientific classification.
For example, Isaac Newton wrote his breakthrough books in Latin.



Ancient Greek has been for centuries the language of science and has
contributed many words to the scientific language of many modern
languages, which are still in use today.  And similarly to using latin
there will be no doubt about which preference is given (European
culture). ;-)


Cheers,
Martin


PS: Seriously, choosing Latin rather than English has no advantage
besides adding an elitarian touch on top of the Europe-centricity.


The discussion is on ideas of introducing labels in Latin alphabet. The
ancient Greek, however, has got its own non-Latin alphabet.

If not Latin, then why English? Why not French? The metric system, which
is used in most countries, was developed in France. At least, using the
Latin language removes such questions. I guess it is probably acceptable
for the Latin America; if so it is not completely a Europe-centricity
solution.

And it is not necessary to study the grammatical structure, what we need
is just to look up a name of a place, one word, in the "la" Wikipedia.
And it is understandable, for example Japan is:
https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaponia , Tokyo is:
https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokium

It is clear, that keeping map titles only in local alphabets is a
possibility, - it is the status quo. The question was how still to make
a map usable on the international scale.

Best regards,

Oleksiy




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Re: [OSM-talk] Draft Trademark Policy

[John F. Eldredge]

On 9/18/2017 11:01 AM, Simon Poole wrote:

Am 18.09.2017 um 11:47 schrieb Stephan Knauss:

Hello Simon,

On 18.09.2017 10:17, Simon Poole wrote:

Depending on the territory you can have rights in marks that you have
not registered and it is probably completely undisputed that OSM is
associated as strongly as OpenStreetMap with the project.

My main interest is whether we actually have OSM as a mark.

I assume you refer to this:
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/markeng/__4.html


I wasn't actually specifically referenceing Germany, as said it really
depends on which territory you are looking at.

This requires a majority of the "users" associating OSM with the
OpenStreetMap Foundation, or maybe with the product the OSMF has which
is our database.

I assume without a registered trademark it would be up to the OSMF to
actually prove that they created the OSM mark by using it, right?

In general all trademarks require that you actually use them to at least
maintain your rights,


So wouldn't it be wise to actually register OSM to prevent any doubts
on having that mark? Costs don't seem that high. Googling mentions 300
EUR for a registration.

Are we confident, the majority associates OSM with OpenStreetMap?
There was the OSMAPS@ mark a while ago. It belonged to Ordnance Survey
Maps, which can also be abbreviated as OSM.

Can we even legally use OSM with Ordnance Survey having OSMM?
https://euipo.europa.eu/eSearch/#details/trademarks/002782688

Wouldn't they be legally required to protect their mark by asking us
to stop using OSM?

Where is the difference between us weakening the OSMM mark and FOSM
weakening the OSM mark?


Obviously I can't comment or even speculate on OS views on their marks,
and it is just as pointless speculating what we we would do if we were
not constrained by financial and manpower resources (as for example the
WMF for all practical purposes is not). As of now we are just covering
the most important things,

Simon


Under US law, at least, a trademark has to be defended (i.e., 
periodically searching for people making infringing use of the 
trademark, and sending them cease-and-desist letters), or else risk 
having a court later decide that the trademark has been abandoned and is 
now in the public domain, free for anyone to use without requiring 
permission.  This has happened over the years to a number of 
trademarks.  Once a trademark has been defended for a certain number of 
years (I am not certain how long), it gets further legal protection and 
you don't have to defend it quite so vigorously. Back about 15 years 
ago, I worked for a small company that was having to defend its 
trademark, so I have a layman's understanding of the issue.


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hate; only love can do that." -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Spoken street names

[John F. Eldredge]

This would be only semi-successful on English-language names, since 
English has loan-words from virtually every other language on Earth, and 
many of those words don't fit the general English phonetic rules.



On 08/22/2016 01:16 PM, Peter Wendorff wrote:

Am 22.08.2016 um 19:21 schrieb Štefan Baebler:

Having TTS to hear the street names is very nice, but hearing them
correctly pronounced would be even better.

There was an attempt at it:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Phonetics

But AFAIK there was no outcome from that proposal.


Did anyone really investigate how bad using common phonetic rules PER 
LANGUAGE on osm names?
For many names that should work I think, at least when the right 
language is detected correctly.
That, on the other hand, could be hinted by using the corresponding 
name:[lang] tags (name:de, name:en, ...), probably even when the main 
language might be redundant.


regards
Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] MAPS.ME edits - partly sub-standard

[John F. Eldredge]

I know I am replying to a two-month-old message, but the idea of 
restrictions on entering postal codes is baffling.  At least in the USA, 
the Post Office encourages the use of postal codes (called Zip codes) on 
mail, to expedite the delivery of mail, and used to publish large 
reference books listing the postal codes for every address in a 
particular area.  Nowadays, they have a web site where you can enter an 
address, and look up the postal code for that address.  What would be 
the purpose of postal codes that aren't told to the general public?  Or, 
is it that the postal code boundaries are restricted, but the postal 
code for a given address is not restricted?



On 06/21/2016 05:14 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Hi,

On 06/21/2016 11:07 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

Perish the thought that people might add their local knowledge to OSM. I
thought it was all imports, armchairing and tagwanking these days.

Only Canadians are allowed to enter their own post codes. The other
countries haven't had their lawsuits resolved yet.

Bye
Frederik




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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Slack

[John F. Eldredge]

One thing I find annoying about most wikis is that conversation threads are 
listed in order of which thread most recently received a reply, not by 
subject. In wikis with large numbers of threads, this means having to guess 
which search terns to use. Sorting by what message replied to what makes 
sense within a thread, but means that you can't scroll through a list of 
subjects to locate a thread already discussing a particular topic.




On April 2, 2016 10:54:19 AM malenki  wrote:


On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 12:23:29 +0100,
Dave F wrote:


> Do really want to read the full log of a chat room?
If there were a record, many IRC discussions wouldn't occur.


Is that so?
Despite OSM forum, wiki and help there are a lot of people who ask
questions which are already answered.
It doesn't depend on the medium that some people cannot or don't want
to RTFM.
And in IRC it is not unfriendly just to paste a matching link to the
question asked, no need to be overly verbose, log into any forum or
format the text.


It's often used by the weak/arrogant who are too
scared/self-important to have their opinions verified & countered.


I am curious (but don't really want to know) in which IRC regions you
roam.
The people I do meet in IRC regularly a friendly, helpful and skillful
and more often than not quite non-boasting.
Just some names for the record (no weight in completeness and order) I
read regularly: woodpeck, Pascal N, katpatuka, Harry Wood, Richard F,
pnorman, SK53, Firefishy, Lonvia, Simon Poole.

scared
weak
arrogant
self important
[with questionable opinions]

Well, consider it yourself.

And not-so-humble I do consider myself also quite skilled regarding OSM
and mostly a nice person.

The trolls or idiots which pass by now and then occur in every medium.
They consume only so much time and energy you really spend on them –
and in IRC they often don't have much patience. :P

hth
Thomas

(Originally I did not want to respond to this nonsense but since I
finally reply to another mail of your I thought: Whatever)



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Re: [OSM-talk] What is 'Attic Data'? or 'Why can't wiki writers use plain language'.

[John F. Eldredge]

I have been working as a developer for thirty years, and had never 
encountered the term "attic data" before this discussion.


On 02/04/2016 01:03 PM, Stephan Knauss wrote:

This time with correct sender ☺

On February 4, 2016 10:15:45 AM GMT+01:00, Stephan Knauss wrote:

Hello Dave and others,

While I agree in general that the wiki should be as understandable for
beginners as possible, please be aware that the audience of your
mentioned page are not beginners.

It is the technical documentation of the overpass API. Application
Program Interface. It is that piece of software an application
developer interacts with.
An API is not intended for the end user.

When you edit OSM data you also use dedicated programs for it and don't
interact with the API directly.

So it is fine when an average developer understands the page.

Having the special vocabulary explained somewhere certainly helps. But
I am quite certain it is explained in the overpass docs.

Stephan


On February 4, 2016 9:41:56 AM GMT+01:00, Mateusz Konieczny
 wrote:

On Wed, 03 Feb 2016 22:06:32 +
Dave F  wrote:


Why is it headed as 'Attic Data'?

AFAIK it is how this is named internally in Overpass API - see
https://github.com/drolbr/Overpass-API/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=attic

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Re: [OSM-talk] Osmand+ question

[John F. Eldredge]

Well, that explains the wavering. I have owned several smartphones, of several 
different brands, but have yet to see one where the magnetic compass sensor 
worked reliably. Fortunately, if you are moving, the direction of travel can be 
deduced from GPS data.


On May 19, 2015 11:09:41 AM CDT, Cristian Consonni  
wrote:
> 2015-05-19 16:49 GMT+02:00 Dominik George :
> > On 19.05.2015 16:40, John F. Eldredge wrote:
> >> What is the meaning of the pie-wedge shape that extends out from
> the
> >> dot marking your current location? The direction in which it
> extends
> >> outward changes occasionally. Does it point to the cell tower you
> are
> >> currently connected to?
> >
> > It shows the direction in which the device is "looking", if the
> magnetic
> > compass is working properly.
> 
> Dominik is right.
> Also note that you can change the orientation of the map with the icon
> in the top left corner.
> 
> C
> 
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[OSM-talk] Osmand+ question

[John F. Eldredge]

What is the meaning of the pie-wedge shape that extends out from the dot 
marking your current location? The direction in which it extends outward 
changes occasionally. Does it point to the cell tower you are currently 
connected to?

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Re: [OSM-talk] iD name suggestion index - asking non-English-speaking mappers to review

[John F. Eldredge]

Is there a company in Australia named Petrol, or is it simply the term for the 
fuel? As I understand it, the question is whether Petrol is valid as a company 
name.


On May 17, 2015 10:53:07 PM CDT, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 17/05/2015 3:57 PM, Stefan Baebler wrote:
> >
> > I see "Petrol" is categorized under discardedNames, but is is in
> fact 
> > a valid full name of company with chain of gas pumps in Slovenia 
> > (www.petrol.si <http://www.petrol.si>).
> >
> > Are there many other similar cases that would make it worthwhile to 
> > make this functionality location-aware, dependant on regions 
> > (countries, continents, languages)?
> >
> Petrol is in common use in Australia... an 'English' speaking country.
> 
> > 16. maj 2015 11.08 pop. je oseba "Mateusz Konieczny" 
> > mailto:matkoni...@gmail.com>> napisala:
> >
> > On Sat, 16 May 2015 20:07:00 +0200
> > Michał Brzozowski  > <mailto:www.ha...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > > I ask non-English speakers to find anything they are sure it's
> a
> > noun
> > > and not a proper name. name-suggestions.json specifies name
> > > suggestions and filter.json specifies what "non-names" should
> be
> > > filtered.
> >
> > Sklep spożywczy (Polish for grocery store)
> > Apteka (Polish for pharmacy)
> >
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD name suggestion index - asking non-English-speaking mappers to review

[John F. Eldredge]

Is there a company in Australia named Petrol, or is it simply the term for the 
fuel? As I understand it, the question is whether Petrol is valid as a company 
name (apparently 

On May 17, 2015 10:53:07 PM CDT, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 17/05/2015 3:57 PM, Stefan Baebler wrote:
> >
> > I see "Petrol" is categorized under discardedNames, but is is in
> fact 
> > a valid full name of company with chain of gas pumps in Slovenia 
> > (www.petrol.si <http://www.petrol.si>).
> >
> > Are there many other similar cases that would make it worthwhile to 
> > make this functionality location-aware, dependant on regions 
> > (countries, continents, languages)?
> >
> Petrol is in common use in Australia... an 'English' speaking country.
> 
> > 16. maj 2015 11.08 pop. je oseba "Mateusz Konieczny" 
> > mailto:matkoni...@gmail.com>> napisala:
> >
> > On Sat, 16 May 2015 20:07:00 +0200
> > Michał Brzozowski  > <mailto:www.ha...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > > I ask non-English speakers to find anything they are sure it's
> a
> > noun
> > > and not a proper name. name-suggestions.json specifies name
> > > suggestions and filter.json specifies what "non-names" should
> be
> > > filtered.
> >
> > Sklep spożywczy (Polish for grocery store)
> > Apteka (Polish for pharmacy)
> >
> > ___
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> > talk@openstreetmap.org <mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org>
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >
> >
> >
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-de] Formal proposal: mechanically reverting fixme=set␣better␣denotation / denotation=cluster

[John F. Eldredge]

Yes, that tag sounds like it should be removed.

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On March 2, 2015 2:55:29 PM moltonel 3x Combo  wrote:


On 02/03/2015, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> He was interested in
> "special" trees and was asuming that trees close to other trees were less
> "special" (something I don't agree with per se, but in practice might have
> worked back then, because the mappers mapping "special trees" were
> typically mapping only those special trees, hence there was less
> probability of other trees _mapped_ nearby, even if there were actual trees
> in the real world).

Ok, that's a reasonable intent. But not a reasonable method, because
the heuristic is flawed, because "storing the result of an osm query
in osm data" is bad practice, and because a list of "normal" trees is
insanely harder to maintain than a list of "special" trees.

So there's not much to redeem the tag AFAICS. I'm happy to see it
deleted from objects, surely starting with that one import and then
double-checking the other changesets.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Mechanically Cleaning Up FIXME Tags

[John F. Eldredge]

I agree. In most cases, a FIXME should be left until someone on-site can 
verify what is correct.


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On February 26, 2015 3:49:58 AM Jonathan Bennett  wrote:


On 26/02/2015 08:43, Andreas Labres wrote:
> This confirmation of course could be automated: show the user the
> object with the tags on some areal imagery background and she/he can 
decide (in

> most cases, I'd say).

No -- the aerial imagery could be out of date, and it may not be
possible to tell if the problem has been fixed (or even existed in the
first place) *only* from aerial images. Confirmation by survey would
reliable.

If the "problem" is in an area where there's no-one to survey, then so
what? Fixmes don't show up on any end-user (as opposed to mapping QA)
rendering, they don't mess up routing, they don't affect geocoding or
have any other negative consequences for consumers of the data. So just
leave them be until someone can get to the area to survey.

J.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Mechanically removing objects with FIXME Tags

[John F. Eldredge]

In the case of Nashville TN, where I live, a mass removal of Tiger data 
would erase most of the map.


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On February 25, 2015 8:01:38 AM moltonel 3x Combo  wrote:


On 25/02/2015, sly (sylvain letuffe)  wrote:
>> But mass-removing that import's fixmes
>
> I meant : "mass-removing the import's objects"

Ah well, that's more drastic and a bit off-topic ? But yeah, I'm sure
nobody will mind the mass-removal of, say, Tiger data in the US, which
happens to be the origin of a lots of fixmes :p

An import with fixmes may be a red flag against the import, but it's
not in itself reason enough to undo the import.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM-Tagging in Wikidata

[John F. Eldredge]

On 12/30/2014 03:00 PM, Philip Barnes wrote:

On Tue, 2014-12-30 at 02:06 +0100, Kolossos wrote:

I would like to keep it as simple as possible and I don't want to
replace the OSM-Wiki where all usefull combinations of tags are described.

You would not only destroy the URL to the OSM-Wiki you would also damage
the format checking tools that we have in Wikidata[1].

Perhaps you have a better example to let me re-think this topic.
"cuisine=fastfood" is only used 12 times [2].


Fastfood is a method of service, not a cuisine.

Phil (trigpoint)



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Agreed.  There are fast-food versions of many different cuisines.

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Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
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Re: [OSM-talk] Detrimental validation software

[John F. Eldredge]

So, your software could potentially mark every connection between two roads as 
"roads not connected", leading to having to verify every intersection in the 
world? Sounds like a very bad design.


On October 18, 2014 2:28:01 PM CDT, Yves  wrote:
>For users to check if it's an error or not, and to correct if needed.
>QA softwares look at possible error according to automatic rules in
>this exact purpose.
>Yves
>
>Le 18 octobre 2014 20:37:21 CEST, Maarten Deen  a
>écrit :
>>On 2014-10-16 18:04, Yves wrote:
>>> Because its the purpose of this particular software.
>>
>>Not wanting to diminish this search, but why would you show an error 
>>"roads not connected" when they are connected? What is the rationale 
>>behind flagging this as a possible error?
>>
>>Regards,
>>Maarten
>>
>>> On 16 octobre 2014 17:10:03 UTC+02:00, Maarten Deen
>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 On 2014-10-16 15:43, SomeoneElse wrote:
 On 16/10/2014 14:28, Maarten Deen wrote:
 On 2014-10-16 15:15, Dave F. wrote:
 
 I had a footpath between them.
 
 So the problem is also that the check is wrong. Apperantly it looks
 at
 major roads that are apart, but doesn't see that they are connected
 by
 another road.
 IMHO these cases should not be shown at all.
>>> 
>>>  Quite possibly, but as (Andrew Buck has already said) what really
>>>  happened here is that a mapper made a mistake.
>>> 
>>> But he would not have been led there if it wasn't pointed out as an
>>> error.
>>> 
 It's not a software
 problem so much as a human one
>>> 
>>> I beg to differ. The roads were connected. Why show an error "two
>>> roads
>>> are not connected" when there is a connection.
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Maarten
>>> 
>>> -
>>> 
>>> talk mailing list
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>>> 
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>>> brièveté.
>>> 
>>> Links:
>>> --
>>> [1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Visually detect missing roads

[John F. Eldredge]

On 09/18/2014 11:07 AM, Stephan Knauss wrote:

Dave F. writes:


On 17/09/2014 23:30, Stephan Knauss wrote:

In Google the road is listed as a major highway.

Are you interpreting this data from Google's visual render or
extracting it from their database?


It's coming from their database. Google does expose a classification
through the v3 API. My map does consider the road types "arterial" and
"highway" as major and "local" as minor. For OSM data unclassified and
higher is considered major.

Stephan

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I think that calling a road tagged as highway=unclassified a "major 
road" is an overstatement.  So, you feel that any road which isn't 
classified as highway=residential, highway=service, or highway=track is 
a major road?


--
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Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
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Re: [OSM-talk] How best to create a "single point of interest" online map with OSM data?

[John F. Eldredge]

What is the difference between a "point of interest" and a "single point 
of interest"?  Saying that a map will show multiple "single points of 
interest" seems like a contradiction.


On 09/17/2014 06:32 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:

What's the best way to create a global "single point of interest" map,
with OSM?




--
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Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
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Re: [OSM-talk] Nexus 5 - No GPS - Fix

[John F. Eldredge]

Sounds like an electrical contact wasn't quite touching until the back was 
fully snapped on. I have had problems in the past with micro-USB cables, as 
they get increasingly loose-fitting over time.


On September 7, 2014 6:39:49 PM CDT, Clifford Snow  
wrote:
> I want to pass along a fix I found for no gps on my Nexus 5. Neither
> Mapillary nor OSM Tracker worked. Mapillary said it couldn't get a gps
> fix.
> After searching it turns out that my back cover wasn't completely
> snapped
> shut on one corner. Snapping it back in place fixed the problem. Just
> one
> little corner, barely noticeable. But once snapped into place, gps
> started
> working.
> 
> Clifford
> 
> -- 
> @osm_seattle
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] route=road - What's that all about then?

[John F. Eldredge]

I have seen park roads that were accessible to the public only during specified 
daylight hours. Using them after park closing time would likely lead to 
trespassing charges. So, an opening_hours tag on those roadways would make 
sense.


On August 23, 2014 4:55:15 AM CDT, Christian Quest  
wrote:
> Deleting, deleting...
> 
> First we should try to understand the meaning, the purpose of any data
> that
> has been contributed by someone else that we don't understand.
> 
> I understand the purpose and meaning of the first two relations. Each
> of
> them describe a route, so the type=route / route=road looks ok to me .
> The second one does not provide much more info than the members
> already
> provide, but let's consider it will improve in the future with for
> example
> an operator=* tag.
> 
> For the third one, I don't understand it.
> It is a big list (collection if your prefer) of roads, and  I don't
> understand the opening_hours tags.
> What is this supposed to describe ?
> 
> Does this mean nobody can drive on these roads except during the
> opening_hours ?
> 
> 
> 
> 2014-08-23 11:18 GMT+02:00 Werner Hoch :
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > Am Donnerstag, den 21.08.2014, 19:20 +0100 schrieb Dave F.:
> > >
> http://ra.osmsurround.org/analyzeRelation?relationId=18159&_noCache=on
> > >
> > > This route relation appears to be just for the B3070. Isn't that a
> waste
> > > of time as it's covered by the ref tags on the ways?
> > >
> > > I thought route relations were a way to allow tagging of journeys
> taken
> > > over numerous types of ways. Any reason why I shouldn't delete it?
> >
> > They are used to describe infrastructure, too. Currently there are
> 85000
> > relations of that kind in the database. (1 in DE, only 100 in
> UK)
> >
> > Often the type=route route=road have extra tags like operator, full
> > name, wikipedia/data link, ...
> >
> > The relation builds a single object for a specific road
> > http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/20884
> >
> > Personally, for roads with lower importance, like the B3070 I
> wouldn't
> > create extra relations.
> > http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/18159
> >
> >
> > In other mails I've seen the ref discussion again. Should it be only
> on
> > the way or on the relation?
> > While it is redundant to place it on both, it helps to do QA tasks
> like
> > missing segments, wrong elements, wrong ref, ...
> >
> > "Relations are not Categories" discussion:
> > Whenever this page is cited I'm wondering how would you identify the
> > specific "category" with a database request?
> >
> > just my 2 cents.
> >
> > This one looks like a bad relation, anyone likes to delete it?
> > http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2621325
> >
> > Regards
> > Werner (werner2101)
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[John F. Eldredge]

Speed limits that are an odd multiple of 5 are common in the USA.  For example, 
the most common speed limit on motorways within cities is 55 mph.  15 mph is a 
common speed limit near schools at the times of day when children are likely to 
be using the crosswalks.

Speed limits that aren't an odd or even multiple of 5 are rare, but not 
unknown. They are usually on private roads. For example, the YMCA owns a large 
sports facility outside Nashville, TN. The posted speed limits on the private 
roads within the compound are 16 mph.


On August 17, 2014 7:43:03 AM CDT, Philip Barnes  wrote:
> On Sun, 2014-08-17 at 02:22 +0200, Andreas Vilén wrote:
> > The user in question now told me he's been using the Wisepilot
> > app: http://www.appello.com/apps/wisepilot/ and seemed totally
> > oblivious to it being a mystery, and that it creates strange and
> > unhelpful notes in most cases.
> > 
> > 
> > I'm guessing Wisepilot doesn't make it very clear what happens when
> > someone reports an error in the app.
> 
> Thanks Andreas
> 
> I have just downloaded wisepilot and have been having a play.
> 
> The first issue I can see is that it defaults to km and to change this
> relies on the user digging into the settings. This should be a startup
> question, or just use the GPs to work it out would be even better.
> 
> The proliferation of these notes using km in the UK does suggest users
> are not bothering to set it up properly. The km display will obviously
> proliferate erroneous reports for an unaware user.
> 
> The speed limit report starts at zero, which is a ridiculous number. I
> guess many do not bother to select the correct limit, but just hit
> report. selecting the speed then replies on the user scrolling through
> a
> list, there are too many options including 5's. All UK limits are
> multiples of 10, have never seen a km speed limit ending in 5 whilst
> driving in Europe either.
> 
> Phil (trigpoint)
> 
> > 
> > 
> > /Andreas
> > 
> > 
> > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 10:02 PM, Andreas Vilén
> >  wrote:
> > Uhm, no, that's not it... Look at
> >
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/57.9221/12.5033&layers=N
> > for example. Also, at least 40-50 notes have been created on
> > this exact location:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/215471
> > That leads me to believe that that position is the "zero
> > position" of the app used to create these notes.
> > 
> > 
> > It would be really great if the person who managed to figure
> > out what app creates these notes could speak out. The guy I
> > contacted about this also doesn't seem to want to answer
> > questions... Why is everything so cryptic?
> > 
> > 
> > /Andreas
> > 
> > 
> > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 8:36 PM, John F. Eldredge
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > On 08/16/2014 01:34 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> > 
> > > 2014-08-16 8:28 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen
> > > :
> > > On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote:
> > > This continues to be really
> > > annoying, and the obvious spam
> seems
> > > to
> > > cluster at a few locations, where
> > > 10-20 notes can be created with
> the
> > > same information. The maker of
> this
> > > app must be made clear that notes
> > > can't work like this, and users
> > > would at least be required to give
> > > some contact information. Most of
> > > the notes that come from this app
> > > are useless and will probably stay
> > > in the database forever.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO
> it
> > > is prudent to put in the message or the
> > > metadata which app reported it. That way
> you
> > > don't have to go on a wild goose chase to
> >  

Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[John F. Eldredge]

Speed limits even n4

On August 17, 2014 7:43:03 AM CDT, Philip Barnes  wrote:
> On Sun, 2014-08-17 at 02:22 +0200, Andreas Vilén wrote:
> > The user in question now told me he's been using the Wisepilot
> > app: http://www.appello.com/apps/wisepilot/ and seemed totally
> > oblivious to it being a mystery, and that it creates strange and
> > unhelpful notes in most cases.
> > 
> > 
> > I'm guessing Wisepilot doesn't make it very clear what happens when
> > someone reports an error in the app.
> 
> Thanks Andreas
> 
> I have just downloaded wisepilot and have been having a play.
> 
> The first issue I can see is that it defaults to km and to change this
> relies on the user digging into the settings. This should be a startup
> question, or just use the GPs to work it out would be even better.
> 
> The proliferation of these notes using km in the UK does suggest users
> are not bothering to set it up properly. The km display will obviously
> proliferate erroneous reports for an unaware user.
> 
> The speed limit report starts at zero, which is a ridiculous number. I
> guess many do not bother to select the correct limit, but just hit
> report. selecting the speed then replies on the user scrolling through
> a
> list, there are too many options including 5's. All UK limits are
> multiples of 10, have never seen a km speed limit ending in 5 whilst
> driving in Europe either.
> 
> Phil (trigpoint)
> 
> > 
> > 
> > /Andreas
> > 
> > 
> > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 10:02 PM, Andreas Vilén
> >  wrote:
> > Uhm, no, that's not it... Look at
> >
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/57.9221/12.5033&layers=N
> > for example. Also, at least 40-50 notes have been created on
> > this exact location:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/215471
> > That leads me to believe that that position is the "zero
> > position" of the app used to create these notes.
> > 
> > 
> > It would be really great if the person who managed to figure
> > out what app creates these notes could speak out. The guy I
> > contacted about this also doesn't seem to want to answer
> > questions... Why is everything so cryptic?
> > 
> > 
> > /Andreas
> > 
> > 
> > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 8:36 PM, John F. Eldredge
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > On 08/16/2014 01:34 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> > 
> > > 2014-08-16 8:28 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen
> > > :
> > > On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote:
> > > This continues to be really
> > > annoying, and the obvious spam
> seems
> > > to
> > > cluster at a few locations, where
> > > 10-20 notes can be created with
> the
> > > same information. The maker of
> this
> > > app must be made clear that notes
> > > can't work like this, and users
> > > would at least be required to give
> > > some contact information. Most of
> > > the notes that come from this app
> > > are useless and will probably stay
> > > in the database forever.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO
> it
> > > is prudent to put in the message or the
> > > metadata which app reported it. That way
> you
> > > don't have to go on a wild goose chase to
> >     > see where it is coming from.
> > > 
> > > Maarten
> > 
> > 
> > If the useless notes are concentrated at a few
> points,
> > it may mean that someone who lives there or passes
> > through on a regular basis is alpha-testing or
> > beta-testing an app.  I agr

Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[John F. Eldredge]

On 08/16/2014 01:34 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
2014-08-16 8:28 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen <mailto:md...@xs4all.nl>>:


On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote:

This continues to be really annoying, and the obvious spam
seems to
cluster at a few locations, where 10-20 notes can be created
with the
same information. The maker of this app must be made clear
that notes
can't work like this, and users would at least be required to give
some contact information. Most of the notes that come from
this app
are useless and will probably stay in the database forever.


And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO it is prudent to put in
the message or the metadata which app reported it. That way you
don't have to go on a wild goose chase to see where it is coming from.

Maarten



If the useless notes are concentrated at a few points, it may mean that 
someone who lives there or passes through on a regular basis is 
alpha-testing or beta-testing an app.  I agree that both a user contact 
and the identify of the app are needed.


--
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Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging of private roads

[John F. Eldredge]

In the USA, it depends upon whether the property owner has given permission for 
public use.  If a private road through an apartment complex is signed as 
"residents and guests only", for example, an outsider driving through can be 
charged with trespassing.


On August 3, 2014 6:50:55 AM CDT, Colin Smale  wrote:
> It depends whether a right of way exists. Things are rather
> complicated in the UK. Private means private, so no entry by default.
> If you are visiting an address on a private road, you have presumably
> been invited, explicitly or implicitly. An unofficial sign "residents
> only" might not have any force in law. A road in private ownership,
> with a public right of way, can be used though if it is a "byway open
> to all traffic". Landowners often object to rights of way across their
> land and might try to discourage their use with misleading signs.
> 
> 
> On 3 August 2014 12:43:50 CEST, Matthijs Melissen
>  wrote:
> >On 3 August 2014 11:18, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> >>> Residential roads in the UK often seem to have 'private road'
> signs,
> >such
> >>> as:
> >>>
> >>> - 'Private road'
> >>> - 'Private road no parking'
> >>> - 'Private road no parking no turning'
> >>> - 'Residents only no unauthorised parking or turning'
> >>>
> >>> How do people tag these roads? For which of these would you use
> >>> access=private?
> >>>
> >> I would tag them all with access=destination, unless there are
> >additional
> >> signs that forbid entering.
> >> A "private road" is privately owned and maintained, but you
> normally
> >may use
> >> it to reach the properties facing it as visitor or for delivery
> >purposes.
> >
> >Most private roads are cul-de-sacs, but in the hypothetical situation
> >where a private road connects two non-private roads, would there be a
> >legal reason you couldn't use the private road as shortcut?
> >
> >-- Matthijs
> >
> >___
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.  Hate cannot drive 
out hate; only love can do that."
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Re: [OSM-talk] Worldwide non-surveyed tag edits

[John F. Eldredge]

>From my experience in the USA, miniature golf always includes the humorous 
>mechanical obstacles.


On June 12, 2014 9:21:46 AM CDT, John Baker  wrote:
> How very true. However in OSM the established wiki used tag is as I
> posted places them in area and that is how they are mapped in the UK.
> Now if we wanted to expand on that that is fine. That tag is still
> there and if there is a consensus and maybe miniature_golf:type =
> crazy_golf can be obtained later if desired.
> 
> It is using a combination of wiki pages, tag usage, etc you can get a
> better understanding.
> 
> And often gardening leads to looking at areas of the wiki (you do
> reading up a lot) that have little care as in this case and can lead
> to better improvements to this. I see this as a benefit.
> 
> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2014 15:04:38 +0100
> From: li...@mail.atownsend.org.uk
> To: talk@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Worldwide non-surveyed tag edits
> 
> 
>   
> 
>   
>   
> John Baker wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>   
>   
> 
>   crazy golf is what we call it in the UK others call it miniature
> golf
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniature_golf
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> In that particular example it's perhaps worth mentioning that that
> wikipedia suggests that the two _aren't_ the same - the last
>   sentence of the first paragraph says "Miniature golf retains many of
>   these characteristics but without the use of any props or obstacles,
> it is purely a mini version of its parent game".
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
> 
> Andy
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
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out hate; only love can do that."
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Re: [OSM-talk] Street Name

[John F. Eldredge]

On 06/01/2014 01:56 AM, malenki wrote:

On  30.05.2014 16:27, Alan McConchie wrote:


Leavenworth is a former logging town that has been turned into a mock
Bavarian village as a tourist attraction. So I'm not surprised that
they are adding "Weg" to their streets to seem more Germanic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leavenworth,_Washington

If they want to have the street and its name even more and real German,
they should name it "Edelweißweg" since Edelweiß in German is written
with "ß"¹, in composed German words no white spaces are used –
and Germans are usually great nitpickers in criticizing such trivia. :)

Thomas

¹ http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edelweiß_(Gattung)
However, if they did so, most English-speakers would probably pronounce 
it "Eidelwebweg", since English lacks that character.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Street Name

[John F. Eldredge]

"Weg" is the German equivalent of "Way". Someone evidently decided to use the 
German term, since the street was named after a German flower.  The edelweiss 
is a flower native to the Alps (not just in Germany), and English adopted the 
German name for the flower.

If you ever saw "The Sound of Music", the Trapp Family Singers won the music 
competition by singing about the edelweiss.


On May 29, 2014 6:34:48 PM CDT, Clifford Snow  wrote:
> I need help with a street name. In Leavenworth, WA there is a street
> named
> "Edelweiss Weg" that I want to add. Is Weg an abbreviation for
> something?
> It will be tagged highway=service service=alley. Google translate
> doesn't
> help.
> 
> If it is an abbreviation, should it be expanded as we usually do?
> 
> Thanks from someone with a language deficit.
> 
> @osm_seattle
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
> 
> 
> 
> 
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John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.  Hate cannot drive 
out hate; only love can do that."
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Not attaching polygons to roads

[John F. Eldredge]

Part of the border of Davidson County in Tennessee, USA runs down the 
centerline of a road.


On February 26, 2014 12:42:00 PM CST, moltonel 3x Combo  
wrote:
>On 26/02/2014, Dave F.  wrote:
>> On 26/02/2014 11:16, Maarten Deen wrote:
>>> On 2014-02-26 11:42, Dave F. wrote:
>>>> It would be pretty silly to have a municiple boundary splitting the
>>>> centre of a road so different administrations were responsible for
>>>> maintaining the left & the right.
>>>
>>> Like here [1]. The border is in the middle of the road,
>>
>> Actually in the /middle/ of the road? I see no evidence of that. I'm
>not
>> suggesting Google Maps are definitive, but they show it to one side.
>
>I don't have a link to share, but there is such a road in my hometown
>in France. It caused no end of grief from the residents, because
>either both municipalities would decide to do no road improvement at
>all, or they'd work on only half the road.
>
>If you thought municipalities and road administrations never do silly
>things, think again.
>
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Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
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Re: [OSM-talk] How to Tag Closed Airport

[John F. Eldredge]

Bryce Nesbitt  wrote:
> I favor disused=yes, perhaps with access=no and a note=.
> The wiki page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disused would favor
> disused:aeroway=aerodrome
> -Byce
> 
> Notes 1) Were there an "objectnote:en=" feature meant for display in
> map clients, this would be a good addition also.
> 
> Note 2) While not relevant here, the OSM lifecycle tags are missing a
> number of steps: "broken when last observed" is
> the lifecycle stage I most frequently want to map.  There's also
> "under construction but not finished when last observed".
> 
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The "when last observed" disclaimer is unnecessary.  Any recorded status is 
going to be "when last observed", unless you are talking about a live broadcast.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Who interprets semicolon in tag values?

[John F. Eldredge]

Peter Wendorff  wrote:
> Am 24.09.2013 13:39, schrieb Shaun McDonald:
> > 
> > On 24 Sep 2013, at 10:55, Elena ``of Valhalla''
>  wrote:
> > 
> >> On 2013-09-24 at 09:31:09 +, Philip Barnes wrote:
> >>> Bank and ATM are more or less synonymous these days, I cannot
> think of a bank without an ATM. The interesting ATM tags are the ones
> that are not at a bank.
> >>
> >> it's not true everywhere in the world: at least in italy there 
> >> are small banks with no (external) ATM, where you have to enter 
> >> the bank (in the usually short opening hours), go to the counter 
> >> and then you can get money (using your debit card).
> >>
> > 
> > I have come across banks in the UK without an external ATM. The way
> I map an ATM at a bank is to use the tag amenity=bank;atm=yes. 
> > have for a big store, put a node on the building outline and put
> amenity=atm on that node so that you know where on the building edge
> there is an ATM. 
> > Thus similar to building entrance mapping.
> 
> putting the node directly onn the outline (such that it's member node
> of
> the outline) may be ambiguous as it's not clear if the atm is inside
> or
> outside the building.
> Therefore I put it directly beneath the outline.
> 
> For any purposes directed towards indoor mapping this IS a relevant
> differentiation not possible with nodes on building outlines.
> 
> regards
> Peter
> 
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In my experience, it is becoming increasingly common to see indoor ATMs in 
shopping malls and businesses. At least in Tennessee, virtually every 
convenience store has an ATM, always inside the store.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Dirt Roads in Mapnik, default render in OSM

[John F. Eldredge]

So, how would you classify a one-lane "road" leading through a former field, 
now overgrown with 30 years or so of bushes and saplings, leading to a 
billboard adjoining a motorway? The only improvements the "road" receives is to 
be mowed periodically to keep it passable, and its only use is by crews 
periodically changing what is displayed on the billboard.  This hardly 
qualifies as agricultural use, but I tagged it as a track because it is too 
rudimentary to qualify as anything else.


Florian Lohoff  wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 03:40:33PM +0200, Maarten Deen wrote:
> > I think the general idea is that track is a dirt roads fit for
> > two-tracked vehicles (cars, agricultural) and path is a dirt road
> > fit for one-tracked vehicles (because too narrow for two-tracked).
> 
> A track is for aggricultural purposes - As soon there is the school
> bus or waste collection trucks passing it CANT be a track.
> 
> Its either highway=service/service=driveway or an unclassified - it
> might have a surface=dirt/grass whatever.
> 
> Flo
> -- 
> Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

[John F. Eldredge]

Agreed.  I suspect a lot of mistakes in the OSM database by new mappers would 
have been backed out by them, could they figure out how to do so.


Pieren  wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 1:05 AM, Bryce Nesbitt 
> wrote:
> 
> > In regards to mistakes: I think it clear that iD makes delete more
> prominent
> > and easy to hit than P2, and misses opportunities to have better
> delete
> > workflows.
> 
> I don't see this as a problem. Deleting is equally important as
> inserting or moving objects in any editor. When you edit a page in
> wikipedia, nobody complains that deleting words is so easy, even for a
> first contribution. What I deeply regret is that OSM website still
> does not offer to everyone, including newcomers, a fast and easy way
> to revert an edit once it is saved. Reverting is done in two clicks on
> wikipedia. This is something important for newcomers. They are less
> worry to participate if they know that they (or someone else) can
> revert at any time their mistakes, even after clicking the 'save'
> button.
> 
> I have personnally more problems when I see that moving a node is
> simpler than moving a way, but that's a detail.
> 
> Pieren
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Www.openstreetmap.org Down?

[John F. Eldredge]

IP address 192.168.1.1 is a local, unroutable address, meaning that it would 
have to be on your local LAN for you to connect to it.  If that is the address 
that name servers are giving out for tile.openstreetmap.org, then the wrong 
information has been supplied to the name servers.


Steve Doerr  wrote:
> Here's what I get:
> 
> 
> C:\Users\Steve>nslookup tile.openstreetmap.org
> Server:  UnKnown
> Address:  192.168.1.1
> 
> DNS request timed out.
>  timeout was 2 seconds.
> DNS request timed out.
>  timeout was 2 seconds.
> DNS request timed out.
>  timeout was 2 seconds.
> DNS request timed out.
>  timeout was 2 seconds.
> *** Request to UnKnown timed-out
> 
> Steve
> 
> On 14/08/2013 21:12, Grant Slater wrote:
> > Hi Liz,
> >
> > Still an issue?
> > Please could you do the following for me to check...
> >
> > Open Terminal (OSX or Linux) / Command Prompt (Windows) and type the
> 
> > following command and send me the result. (offlist best)
> >  nslookup tile.openstreetmap.org <http://tile.openstreetmap.org>
> >
> > Regards
> >  Grant
> >
> >
> > On 14 August 2013 21:05, Liz Barry  > <mailto:eba...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > maybe something local. no tiles loading for me in Brooklyn, NYC
> USA
> >
> > @lizbarry <http://twitter.com/lizbarry>
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 3:57 PM, Grant Slater
> >  <mailto:openstreet...@firefishy.com>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > The site is up and traffic is at expected levels.
> >
> > Does the site not respond at all or a part not load?
> >
> > If there were a major outage it would be reported here:
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Platform_Status
> >
> > Regards
> >  Grant
> >  Part of OSM sysadmin team.
> >
> >
> > On 14 August 2013 20:33, Steve Doerr
>  > <mailto:doerr.step...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Is it?
> >
> > -- 
> > Steve
> >
> > ___
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> > talk@openstreetmap.org <mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org>
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >
> >
> >
> > _______
> > talk mailing list
> > talk@openstreetmap.org <mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org>
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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[OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: comments on new map widget on main page

[John F. Eldredge]

I had intended to send this to the list, not just to Lester Caine.


 Original Message 
From: "John F. Eldredge" 
Sent: Mon Jul 29 14:16:32 CDT 2013
To: Lester Caine 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] comments on new map widget on main page

I had always assumed that the "Where am I" made the map show the user's 
approximate physical location, based on their IP address, or on their GPS 
reading if done from a mobile device.


Lester Caine  wrote:
> AJ Ashton wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Lester Caine  > <mailto:les...@lsces.co.uk>> wrote:
> >
> > The point I was trying to make is the fact that when one is
> supplied a link
> > one often does not know where in the world it is, especially the
> encrypted
> > ones. I asked a number of times in the past for some description
> on where we
> > have been parachuted into
> >
> > You can already get a textual description like this via the "Where
> am I?" link
> > below the search box. There was a recent discussion about what might
> be done to
> > improve this and the other geolocation features of OSM:
> > https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/373
> 
> Well I never ... How long has that been there?
> http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/ down at the moment? I'm only
> seeing short a 
> GeoNames result. The comments on that link certainly points out the
> poor title. 
> Even if I had noticed it, I doubt I would have twigged it was 'Where
> am I 
> looking at?'
> 
> Curious ... I'm not getting anything at the moment. Just a blank
> 'tab'.
> But this should work the same as the pop-ins on the other side? Moving
> the 
> centre of the map is irritating :( Actually if the 'results' from that
> just 
> appeared in the share pop-out?

-- 
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"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria


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Re: [OSM-talk] Re-opening a note if necessary?

[John F. Eldredge]

I agree that it should be possible to update notes after the fact.


malenki  wrote:
>On  08.06.2013 22:22, James Mast wrote:
>
>> I'm curious, but does anybody think that "notes" should be able to be
>> re-opened if necessary?
>
>Definitely yes.
>I've created a ticket here:
>https://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/4874
>
>I was astonished there wasn't one since I heard a lot of complaining
>about this missing feature both in OpenStreetBugs and now at notes.
>
>Regards
>Thomas
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Key Proposal wheelchair:toilet

[John F. Eldredge]

In my experience, usually only one stall in a public restroom will have the 
larger size and handrails needed for wheelchair use.  I have only seen a few 
extra-large restrooms which were equipped to handle more than one 
wheelchair-using person at a time.  Thus, it would be useful to be able to tag 
the number of such stalls.


Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>2013/6/7 Christoph Bünte 
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> we at wheelmap.org want to take our service to the next level by
>tagging
>> public places wether there is an wheelchair accessible toilet or not.
>To
>> start the discussion we prepared an key proposal:
>>
>>
>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/wheelchair:toilet
>>
>> Please let us know what you think about it.
>>
>>
>
>the proposal looks reasonable at first glance, if you see this as an
>attribute to something (and it will definitely be easier to evaluate
>this
>way). An alternative might be to tag explicitly the toilet and add
>wheelchair tags to the toilet.
>
>I checked with tag info and there are already tags in use:
>
>http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/toilets
>e.g.
>wheelchair:*toilets*
>*toilets*:wheelchair
>
>the suggestion for a toilet attribute on a POI according to
>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dtoilets is "toilets",
>that's why I suggest you change the wording in your proposal to plural.
>IMHO the most logical way would be toilets:wheelchair=yes/no but
>wheelchair:toilets is currently used far more often.
>
>cheers,
>Martin
>
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-ca] Tag for Tim Horton's

[John F. Eldredge]

I have often seen the term used in the USA by casual-dining restaurants that 
cook from scratch, instead of relying on the heavily pre-prepared food 
characteristic of fast-food restaurants.  These cafes have beverages available, 
but in limited variety, since the emphasis is on the food.



Eugene Alvin Villar  wrote:
>On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 5:11 AM, Andrew MacKinnon
>wrote:
>
>> is there such a thing as a cafe that is not a coffee shop?
>>
>Yes, if it is a tea shop.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD Editor live on OpenStreetMap

[John F. Eldredge]

Pieren  wrote:
> On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 3:29 PM, John F. Eldredge
> > So, you feel that non-programmers, who have justified reasons to
> complain
> > about the design, such as the silent removal of highway tags, should
> not be
> > able to let their opinion of the bad design be made known?
> 
> That's what programmers love (I'm one) : admire my work or provide
> patches or shut up ;-)
> 
> Pieren
> 
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I also am a programmer, and it helps to have feedback from the users when they 
find a bug or design flaw.

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Re: [OSM-talk] iD Editor live on OpenStreetMap

[John F. Eldredge]

On 05/24/2013 06:15 AM, Nick Whitelegg wrote:


I don't regularly use iD myself (JOSM user), but, on behalf of its 
developers: negative comments like this are unhelpful and denigrate 
the vast amount of hard work that has gone into producing the editor. 
If you don't like it, complain about it to your friends in private, 
change the code, but do not slag it off on a public mailing list!


Nick

-razor74  wrote: -
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
From: razor74 
Date: 24/05/2013 09:36AM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] iD Editor live on OpenStreetMap

The worst editor ewer. With this will result many damages and
incompatibilities. From newbies ofcourse. Potlatch is the best blend for
advanced users and for new ones with alot of info and very friendly
interface. This is a joke. Take it down before destroyed the existent maps
with alot of hard work on them!



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So, you feel that non-programmers, who have justified reasons to 
complain about the design, such as the silent removal of highway tags, 
should not be able to let their opinion of the bad design be made known?
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD, exclusive use of tags

[John F. Eldredge]

Paul Johnson  wrote:
> On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 8:17 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
>  > wrote:
> 
> > I just discovered that iD presumes that some tags are exclusive,
> e.g. you
> > can't add (at least not via preset) on the same way (line) more than
> one of
> > these tags: highway, railway, power but afaik it is common practice
> to use
> > railway=tram on the same way as highway=* (in certain
> circumstances).
> >
> 
> The tram and the highway should be separate ways unless the tram is a
> single track dead-center on the highway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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So, you are saying that if the tram tracks are located in the highway, but 
off-center, then the map should not reflect the ground truth?  I have seen 
numerous streets where there are tram tracks in both directions, and the tracks 
are located in the driving lanes, not in a separate section down the middle of 
the street.

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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC updated: OSM Attribution Mark (was: contributor mark)

[John F. Eldredge]

Michal Migurski  wrote:

> What about “with OSM” instead of “by OSM”?
> 
> -mike.
> 
> ---
> michal migurski http://mike.teczno.com
> 
> On Apr 22, 2013, at 7:39 AM, Simon Poole  wrote:
> 
> > 
> > The copyright page is now much better than before and IMHO contains 
> the necessary contents. There are a couple of wording issues that are
> already present in the current version that we should address while
> we're at it (but that is mainly CWG/OWG turf) but nothing major.
> > 
> > I do have a couple of issues with the icon though. First while I'm
> sure we would like to take credit for everything OSMish, doesn't "by
> OSM" imply the wrong thing? What we want to say is I suspect "Data by
> OSM", that naturally would be rather unwiedly. Further there may be a
> potential (legal) issue with using OSM in that way that I need to
> discuss with counsel.
> > 
> > But all in all a nice step forward.
> > 
> > Simon
> > 
> > 
> > Am 22.04.2013 14:40, schrieb Alex Barth:
> >> Hello everyone -
> >> 
> >> I'd love to start pushing again on the OSM attribution mark.
> >> 
> >> This is an updated proposal based on an initial RFC from earlier
> this year titled "Contributor Mark" [1, 2]. Sorry for the delay in
> following up with adjustments based on feedback   on the
> original thread. 
> >> 
> >> Again, the goal of this proposal is to draw more attention to
> OpenStreetMap wherever it's used by introducing a visually compelling,
> linked symbol for placement on OSM-based works and by explaining
> OpenStreetMap better at the place where this symbol links to.
> >> 
> >> Looking forward to your feedback. I'll also be reaching out to
> corresponding working groups and OSMF to see how we can move this
> forward.
> >> 
> >> Concretely, this RFC proposes
> >> 
> >> 1. Replace current credit "© OpenStreetMap Contributors" with a
> visual mark where possible
> >> 2. Update `openstreetmap.org/copyright` to explain better OSM, to
> invite visitors to join and to allow creators of derivative work to
> link back to their sites.
> >> 
> >> The update to the original RFC brings 4 key changes:  
> >> 
> >> 1. Rename the proposal from 'Contributor Mark' to 'Attribution
> Mark'
> >> 2. A completely redesigned mark, containing the letters "OSM"
> >> 3. A completely redesigned `/copyright` page, the page the mark
> links to. It is much closer to today's `/copyright`
> >> 4. The mark is an alternative to "© OpenStreetMap Contributors".
> Only where the mark can't be used, "© OpenStreetMap Contributors" may
> be used.
> >> 
> >> Please read up on all details on the newly created RFC page:
> >> 
> >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/RFC_Attribution_Mark
> >> 
> >> Also take a look at the repository containing artwork and code:
> >> 
> >> https://github.com/osmlab/attribution-mark
> >> 
> >> Alex
> >> 
> >> --
> >> 
> >> [1] Initial RFC
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-January/065784.html
>  
> >> [2] Feedback summary
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-January/065860.html
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ___
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> >> talk@openstreetmap.org
> >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> > 
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> 
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Or perhaps "Data from OSM".

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Re: [OSM-talk] Disappearing nodes from wheelmap.org

[John F. Eldredge]

Toby Murray  wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Christoph Bünte
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Am 18.04.2013 um 13:33 schrieb André Riedel:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > do you still support only poi nodes instead of areas too (e.g.
> > buildings, parks, ...)? If so, one reason could be the change from
> poi
> > nodes to better poi areas.
> >
> > Thanks to Frederik Ramm we also support ways for more than a year
> now. My
> > first guess was that there was something wrong on our servers. But
> > everything works fine. That's why i think there a conversion from
> one tag
> > to another going on. As it is happening all over the world this
> might be
> > something with public transport. But i couldn't figure out which.
> >
> 
> What about relations? Although I'm not sure that would account for all
> of
> those numbers.
> 
> 
> >
> > > For example:
> > > Previously tagged node of a restaurant is replaced by a more
> complex
> > way. This way represents the whole restaurant building and is of
> course
> > tagged with the wheelchair-key.
> > >
> > > Next question: Could you show the best entrance to a restaurant,
> if one
> > is accessible by a wheelchair and the second one not?
> >
> > No, we don't. Is this a feature request?
> 
> 
> Yes and it has been declined before :)
> 
> http://wheelmap.uservoice.com/forums/31554-general/suggestions/1157049-support-entrances-to-buildings
> 
> And I can see the reasoning for things like restaurants and such being
> more
> confusing but for larger buildings (universities, malls, government
> buildings, etc) it really would be useful.
> 
> Toby
> 
> 
> 
> 
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I agree that this is a good idea.  Even for smaller buildings, the 
wheelchair-accessible entrance may be on a different side of the building than 
the primary entrance.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Why do we have so many registered users with zero edits ?

[John F. Eldredge]

Simon Poole  wrote:

> 
> Am 14.04.2013 20:37, schrieb Werner Hoch:
> > Am Sonntag, den 14.04.2013, 23:38 +1000 schrieb Steve Bennett:
> >> On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 11:33 PM, Simon Poole 
> wrote:
> >>> Just a further data point. As of the end of last month we had
> edits from
> >>> 324'152 unique UIDs, not quite 30% of all accounts (some of the
> >>> changesets are likely to be empty, but the number is still quite a
> bit
> >>> larger than the often quoted 200'000).
> > I think the quotet 22 are those mappers that still "own" an
> active
> > osm object. (last editor).
> Yes, the problem is that particularly the smallest editors are the
> ones
> that are most likely to get their complete last edit contribution
> zapped
> by a bot or by a regular edit.
> 
> >> Is there (or could there be?) a graph of contributions against
> number
> >> of u-el-? Might be interesting also to see whether the number of
> users
> >> on zero is vastly different to the number of users on one edit, two
> >> edits etc.
> >
> http://www.h-renrew.de/h/osm/osmchecks/03_Statistik/planet/statistic.html
> >
> > statistic based only on the last editors.
> > about 25000 Users only own a single node.
> 
> See above this number is probably far to low.
> >
> > 90% of all ways and nodes are last edited by about 7000 users.
> > 99% by about 3 users.
> >   --> 9% of data, 23000 users
> > 99.9%  8 Users
> >   --> 0.9% of data, 5 users
> > and the rest:
> >   --> 0.1% of data, 14 users
> >
> 
> Don't forget that we lost another ~40k editors in total and about 15k
> ("last editors") in the planet dump due to the licence change.
> 
> Simon
> 
> 
> _______
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
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Well, I know that I, for one, have been active on the mailing lists, but 
haven't done any actual mapping in a while. I hope to get back to it soon, 
however.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Out of Service Roads

[John F. Eldredge]

Paul Johnson  wrote:

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't access=no implied with any
> construction=* value other than "minor?"  At least this is the feel I
> got
> from live use as the way mkgmap interprets things.
> 
> 
> On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 8:57 PM, Russ Nelson 
> wrote:
> 
> > Clifford Snow writes:
> >  > How do you tag roads that are out of service. We have a section
> of
> > Widbey
> >  > Island that was wiped out by a landslide. It will be out of
> service for
> >  > some time.
> >
> > I agree with the "construction" tagging, but if the road still
> exists
> > but is impassable, and there isn't any current construction going
> on,
> > I mark it with access=no. If there are gates, I mark barrier=gate
> (or
> > whatever is appropriate).
> >
> > --
> > --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
> > Crynwr supports open source software
> > 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
> > Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog
> >
> > ___
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> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
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You often have existing lanes open next to heavy construction.  Not all 
multi-lane roads have each lane mapped as a separate way.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crossroad names

[John F. Eldredge]

Vladimir Vyskocil  wrote:

> I think it's time to switch to the tagging list !
> 
> The tagging scheme that seems preferred in this discussion is the
> following :
> 
> - simple named junctions : use junction=yes and name=*
> - complex named junctions with several lanes crossing a different
> points :
>   two propositions : 
>   - use a relation { type=junction, name=*,  junction role,...}
> referencing all the crossing points between the lanes
>   - use a place { tag=junction or crossroads, name=* } on a area
> englobing the crossing points
> 
> All right ? What are your opinions on this ?
> 
> Vlad.
> 
> 
> On 27 mars 2013, at 00:22, Satoshi IIDA  wrote:
> 
> >> highway=traffic_signals + name=* are now also visible:
> > Great!
> > 
> >> traffic_lights on complex crossroads
> >> Area or Relation
> > I prefer to use relation.
> > I'm afraid of effects to routing topology when signals or
> roundabouts
> > are written as an area.
> > 
> > As theory, the names of Japanese traffic signals are given to each
> > signals, not to a junction.
> > (and basically, the signals on a same junction has same names)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 2013/3/27 Christian Quest :
> >> highway=traffic_signals + name=* are now also visible:
> >> http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/?lon=139.71686&lat=35.61534&zoom=18
> >> 
> >> You'll see that adding names to traffic_lights on complex
> crossroads
> >> causes the same name to be rendered multiple times in some places:
> >> http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/?lon=139.71825&lat=35.61857&zoom=18
> >> 
> >> A better tagging scheme seems necessary as one "thing" should be in
> >> the database just once.
> >> 
> >> If we could avoid relations and use either the junction=yes or a
> >> place=junction/crossroad (place name are usually meant to be
> rendered
> >> that's why I'm thinking about it).
> >> 
> >> Think also about Nominatim... place=* makes more sense for that
> purpose.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 2013/3/25 Vladimir Vyskocil :
> >>> 
> >>> And there are more than 7000 nodes with highway=traffic_signals
> and name=*
> >>> in Tokyo and its suburbs !
> >>> Another country, another solution for the same tagging "problem".
> >>> 
> >>> Vlad.
> >> 
> >> --
> >> Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France
> >> Synthèse du Week-end "SOTM-FR" à Lyon :
> http://openstreetmap.fr/synthese-sotmfr
> >> 
> >> ___
> >> talk mailing list
> >> talk@openstreetmap.org
> >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Satoshi IIDA
> > mail: nyamp...@gmail.com
> > twitter: @nyampire
> > 
> > ___
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> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> 
> 
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Moving this discussion to the tagging list sounds reasonable.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Can't unsubscribe

[John F. Eldredge]

Pavel Stelmakh  wrote:

> Thanks for answering. Nothing in spam, can you please try to get this
> message from mailing list and tell me if it's received?
> 
> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 5:26 PM, John F. Eldredge
> wrote:
> 
> > Pavel Stelmakh  wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > confirmation mail doesn't arrive, can someone help please?
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> >
> > Can you check to see if a spam filter program intercepted the
> message?
> >  Most such programs send the message to a special mailbox or folder,
> then
> > delete the message once some time limit is reached.
> >
> > --
> > John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
> > "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
> than not
> > to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
> >

Yes, your message made it to the mailing list.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Display names of crossroads

[John F. Eldredge]

Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

> 2013/2/23 Andrew Errington :
> > I agree that there is a need for this, and I am happy with the
> simplicity of
> > using junction=yes and name=*.  If you don't submit a trac request,
> I will,
> > but the link to trac is not working for me:
> > trac.openstreetmap.org/query?component=mapnik&order=id&desc=1
> 
> 
> I'd prefer junction!=no instead of junction=yes as this will be more
> compatible with what there already is in the db (e.g.
> junction=roundabout).
> 
> cheers,
> Martin
> 
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When would junction=no be used?  When one way passes over another on a viaduct 
without actually connecting?

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Recent edits in the wiki / Trademark issue

[John F. Eldredge]

Stefan Keller  wrote:

> Hi John
> 
> I think some EU countries (and Switzerland) also have this 5 years
> rule.
> But I'm not a professional lawyer.
> If anybody is, then I suggest that he could offer his services to the
> OSMF as a volunteer (e.g. for a 2nd opinion).
> 
> Yours, Stefan
> 
> 
> 2013/2/4 John F. Eldredge :
> > Russ Nelson  wrote:
> >
> >> Having read some more on this issue, I think the board has done the
> >> right thing. Apologies to anyone offended.
> >>
> >> Christopher Woods (IWD) writes:
> >>  > On 02/02/2013 21:01, Aun Yngve Johnsen wrote:
> >> > > This discussion is way out of hand. You guys screaming for
> >> publishing the C+D, didn't you see the answer from SimonPoole? They
> >> have asked lawyers about advise in publishing it, as well as
> releasing
> >> more information about it. It is not a sign of weak leadership to
> ask
> >> for legal advise in a case that can be as hairy as trademark and
> >> copyright issues.
> >>
> >> > I'm extremely interested to see what in the notice specifies that
> >> the TM
> >> > holder believes that they can pursue and control usage when
> >> mentioned in
> >>  > proximity of Google services.
> >>
> >> Again, without access to the C&D, is that in spite of having
> allowed
> >> generic usage of "geocode" for the last 12 years since their
> trademark
> >> was granted, they now claim that "geocode" in the context of a
> Google
> >> geocoding URL is a trademark infringement. As Chris says, risible.
> >>
> >> Deleting our links to the Google URL is the correct thing to do,
> >> because there is no way to link to that service without infringing
> >> their trademark (claim).
> >>
> >> My offer to create a non-infringing gateway stands.
> >>
> >> > Redacting or editing directly as a result of simply receiving a
> C&D
> >> is
> >> > not an ideal first step. Does OSM consider itself to be in breach
> of
> >>
> >> > something discussed in the C&D or that it has actually done
> >> something
> >>  > wrong? I unequivocally believe the opposite to be true - and
> that
> >>  > Geocode Inc. is misrepresenting the situation.
> >>
> >> The problem is that it's not OSM infringing the trademark. It's
> >> *Google*.
> >
> > If they have, indeed, allowed the generic use of the term "geocode"
> for 12 years without challenging it, then I believe that, under US
> law, the term is now legally classed as generic, and can be used by
> anyone.  According to
> <http://itlaw.wikia.com/wiki/Trademark_infringement>, while there is
> no Federal law explicitly stating a statute of limitations, one
> Federal court decided that such cases were subject to the general
> five-year limit for non-capital offenses under Title 18 of the US
> Code.  Usually, the Federal courts follow the precedents set by the
> most similar state case.
> >
> > --
> > John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
> > "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better
> than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
> >
> >
> > ___
> > talk mailing list
> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Well, I should note that I am not a lawyer, either.

-- 
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"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria


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Re: [OSM-talk] Recent edits in the wiki / Trademark issue

[John F. Eldredge]

Russ Nelson  wrote:

> Having read some more on this issue, I think the board has done the
> right thing. Apologies to anyone offended.
> 
> Christopher Woods (IWD) writes:
>  > On 02/02/2013 21:01, Aun Yngve Johnsen wrote:
> > > This discussion is way out of hand. You guys screaming for
> publishing the C+D, didn't you see the answer from SimonPoole? They
> have asked lawyers about advise in publishing it, as well as releasing
> more information about it. It is not a sign of weak leadership to ask
> for legal advise in a case that can be as hairy as trademark and
> copyright issues.
> 
> > I'm extremely interested to see what in the notice specifies that
> the TM 
> > holder believes that they can pursue and control usage when
> mentioned in 
>  > proximity of Google services.
> 
> Again, without access to the C&D, is that in spite of having allowed
> generic usage of "geocode" for the last 12 years since their trademark
> was granted, they now claim that "geocode" in the context of a Google
> geocoding URL is a trademark infringement. As Chris says, risible.
> 
> Deleting our links to the Google URL is the correct thing to do,
> because there is no way to link to that service without infringing
> their trademark (claim).
> 
> My offer to create a non-infringing gateway stands.
> 
> > Redacting or editing directly as a result of simply receiving a C&D
> is 
> > not an ideal first step. Does OSM consider itself to be in breach of
> 
> > something discussed in the C&D or that it has actually done
> something 
>  > wrong? I unequivocally believe the opposite to be true - and that 
>  > Geocode Inc. is misrepresenting the situation.
> 
> The problem is that it's not OSM infringing the trademark. It's
> *Google*.

If they have, indeed, allowed the generic use of the term "geocode" for 12 
years without challenging it, then I believe that, under US law, the term is 
now legally classed as generic, and can be used by anyone.  According to 
<http://itlaw.wikia.com/wiki/Trademark_infringement>, while there is no Federal 
law explicitly stating a statute of limitations, one Federal court decided that 
such cases were subject to the general five-year limit for non-capital offenses 
under Title 18 of the US Code.  Usually, the Federal courts follow the 
precedents set by the most similar state case.

-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria


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Re: [OSM-talk] Recent edits in the wiki / Trademark issue

[John F. Eldredge]

f.dos.san...@free.fr wrote:

> It's here :
> 
> https://docs.google.com/a/osmfoundation.org/document/d/19wLhnezowHBio9zGaJkNaCbDX-gmWNHUSdx1kdQJYY0/edit
> 
> 
> - Mail original -
> From: "Cartinus" 
> To: talk@openstreetmap.org
> Date: 01/02/2013 19:32:44
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Recent edits in the wiki / Trademark issue
> 
> >O really, we've been officially served? Then that should not be a
> secret
> >is it?
> >
> >Please put whatever communication the OSMF received in a place we can
> >see. So we know what is actually "forbidden". Stop treating the
> >volunteers as mushrooms.
> >
> 
> ___
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You did not give a link to the actual cease-and-desist letter, as requested; 
you only gave a link to minutes stating that such a letter had been received.  
So, ordinary rank-and-file mappers still haven't been told the details of what 
is forbidden.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Kort Game: Translators seeked!

[John F. Eldredge]

"Miloš Komarčević"  wrote:

> On Jan 17, 2013 7:55 PM, "Stefan Keller"  wrote:
> 
> >
> > Thanks for the hint.
> > How would you then for example insert a newline (CR+) LF?
> > Does there a language file format standard exist for that?
> >
> 
> Well, the idea is that you don't mix layout into the content at all.
> Presuming a line break at a certain position might not make sense in
> another language.
> 
> Not a problem of language file format, but your app framework.
> 
> M
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Sentence structure varies considerably from language to language.  Having words 
or phrases in the wrong order may turn a sentence into gibberish, or in some 
cases may form a grammatically-valid sentence, but with a different meaning 
than intended.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Overlapping ways

[John F. Eldredge]

Christian Quest  wrote:

> I that case nodes are not shared by the ways, but are duplicate (same
> lat/lon) and as Clay mentionned, this will ring some other alarm.. I
> would move one of them a little bit to avoid it.
> 
> 2013/1/10 Rob Nickerson :
> > Can I ask for some clarification on what is meant by "sharing
> nodes". For
> > example, if I draw the layer 0 way, then draw the layer 1 way on
> top, using
> > the same nodes as a guide, BUT THEN "unglue" all the nodes by
> pressing "G"
> > in JOSM, does this still count as a "shared node"?
> >

Nodes that have the same latitude and longitude, but different layer or level 
values, should not be flagged as duplicates.  It sounds like some programmer 
forgot to allow for the fact that we live in a three-dimensional world.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Simple improvement(s) to openstreetmap.org

[John F. Eldredge]

Joseph Reeves  wrote:

> Ok, I'll bite...
> 
> >I think this would be missing our audience.  If you're illiterate (a
> group
> Twitter caters specifically to), what are the >odds you're going to be
> able
> to make use of a map, much less contribute constructively to OSM?
> 
> How do illiterate people use Twitter?
> Do illiterate people have no spatial knowledge that could be of use to
> the
> wider world? Is there no way that Open spatial data could help
> illiterate
> people?
> Is "our audience" people that look at osm.org and don't like social
> media?
> 
> In my opinion OSM is going to really take off once we start making
> more use
> of social media, or other means of participation, such as SMS
> messaging
> (the sorts of things you couldn't do with closed spatial data, such as
> GMaps), and start thinking less of pixels on osm.org
> 
> Joseph
> 
> 
> On 9 January 2013 15:15, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 8:57 AM, Frederik Ramm 
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I think it is ok for us to post stuff to Twitter, and I think we
> should
> >> make room for such news on our web page (many web sites have a
> widget that
> >> shows the most recent twitter mentions).
> >>
> >> I would dislike a "follow us on Twitter" button because it will
> only show
> >> the Twitter signup page if someone doesn't have an account, and
> therefore
> >> make it look like you had to subscribe to Twitter in order to read
> our news
> >> - which is thankfully not true.
> >>
> >
> > I think this would be missing our audience.  If you're illiterate (a
> group
> > Twitter caters specifically to), what are the odds you're going to
> be able
> > to make use of a map, much less contribute constructively to OSM?
> >
> > ___
> > talk mailing list
> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >
> >
> 
> 
> ----
> 
> ___
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I think that was a somewhat-snarky way of commenting on how many Twitter users 
don't spell very well and/or have poor grammar.  This isn't limited to Twitter 
users, unfortunately.

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Re: [OSM-talk] House Numbers

[John F. Eldredge]

"Janko Mihelić"  wrote:

> What about addr:interpolation? Do you count all the housenumbers in
> between, or only the ones on the ends? I think all should be counted.
> And
> not because I use those a lot :)
> 
> Janko (1373) Mihelić
> 
> 
> 
> 
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In some cases, address interpolation may produce addresses that don't exist on 
the ground.  My parents lived for years on a street that has several sharp 
turns.  In order to keep the addresses more-or-less in sync between the two 
sides of the street, a number of potential house numbers were skipped at the 
inside of the sharp turns.

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Re: [OSM-talk] I hope this problem in iOS6 maps isn't because of OSM data.

[John F. Eldredge]

Tom Hughes  wrote:

> On 11/12/12 00:17, James Mast wrote:
> 
> >
> http://hothardware.com/News/Australian-Police-Warn-Motorists-Against-Relying-on-Apple-iOS-6-Maps/
> 
> Unsurprisingly it has nothing at all to do with our data. It seems to
> be 
> because of official Australian Government data:
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/10/apple_maps_ghost_mildura/
> 
> Tom

According to the article, the rural location is the center point of the local 
government area tagged as "Madura Regional City", so we have a mixup over the 
administrative area vs. the city itself.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] public_transport=platform not rendered

[John F. Eldredge]

Jo  wrote:

> I don't mark all the stop positions. To me they are less important,
> than
> were the stop is.

What are you considering to be the difference between a "stop position" and 
"where the stop is"?  I consider where something is to be its position.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Scientific/Species Data in OSM Database - Collaborators

[John F. Eldredge]

Mikel Maron  wrote:

> Hi
> 
> I'm interested in the topic, but haven't been contributing information
> yet.
> 
> Some immediate issues that come to mind: Most areas would have more
> than one species of flora, but not clear how to use the species tag in
> that way. Fauna ranges are often not well defined in terms of existing
> landuse tags, so not sure if it is "appropriate". Some cases could
> clearly be, such as a protected area set up for a particular
> endangered species.
> 
> -Mikel
>  
> * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
> 
> 
> >
> > From: Alex Rollin 
> >To: talk@openstreetmap.org 
> >Sent: Monday, October 22, 2012 2:12 AM
> >Subject: [OSM-talk] Scientific/Species Data in OSM Database -
> Collaborators
> > 
> >
> >Hi, 
> >
> >
> >I have been looking through the wiki for more information about
> "appopriate data".  
> >
> >
> >I would like to meet more of the people storing information about
> "presence of species", flora or fauna, inside the OSM db.
> >
> >
> >I see
> >
> >
> >http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:species
> >
> >
> >and
> >
> >
> >http://tagstat.hypercube.telascience.org/tagdetails.php?tag=species
> >
> >
> >Any feedback about this is very welcome.  We are just researching
> this now.
> >
> >
> >Alex
> >Bogor, Indonesia
> >___
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> >talk@openstreetmap.org
> >http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
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> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

The practicality of storing this information in the OSM database depends in 
part on how many species you are tracking.  If only a few species are being 
tracked, there isn't a problem.  If you try to record all of the species in an 
area, including the insects and microbes, then you are talking about tens of 
thousands of entries for even a small geographical area.

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Re: [OSM-talk] "China's maps to be closely monitored for more accuracy" - China Daily

[John F. Eldredge]

pavithran  wrote:

> On 19 October 2012 16:15, Dongpo  wrote:
> > That's the accuracy they concern. Even though those are not facts,
> > they still persist to claim those areas are belong to China.
> > "Accuracy"!?
> 
> That means some of the Indian borders with china should be watched !
> They do have some claims on Indian territorial lands .
> 
> Regards,
> Pavithran

I would also suspect that, in at least some cases, it will mean 
government-approved names being used for communities, rather than names coming 
from local dialects.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Multiple Layers for OSM

[John F. Eldredge]

Jochen Topf  wrote:

> The layer rendering thing in first position has nothing to do with
> what I am
> suggesting. That can already be done with current technology. But the
> second
> one has (People want to host their own layers). :-)
> 
> Jochen
> 
> On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 10:20:29AM +0200, Mike Dupont wrote:
> > Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 10:20:29 +0200
> > From: Mike Dupont 
> > To: Jochen Topf 
> > Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
> > Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Multiple Layers for OSM
> > 
> > Well I support this idea and see it as long needed, it is also the
> top
> > voted item on the ideascale, http://fosm.ideascale.com/ to be able
> to
> > render as layers. The layers could be used also to split up
> different
> > licensed data as well.
> > 
> > On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Jochen Topf 
> wrote:
> > > In the recent discussion about the the imports in France and DWG
> governance
> > > the issue of multiple "layers" in OSM came up again. If we had
> some kind of
> > > layer system we could stage imports through them instead of adding
> all data
> > > to the OSM database directly and this would help finding problems
> etc.
> > >
> > > It turns out there are many other interesting uses of multiple
> layers but also
> > > many technical and social questions around them. I have written
> down my thoughts
> > > on this subject in a (rather lengthy) blog post:
> > >
> > > http://blog.jochentopf.com/2012-09-23-multiple-layers-for-osm.html
> > >
> > > If anybody wants to comment, I think this mailing list is the
> right place.
> > >

If someone is hosting their own layer, doesn't that mean that it isn't being 
hosted by the OSM database itself?  This sounds like more of a rendering issue 
than a back-end database issue.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Shoud OSM Help move to Stackexchange community?

[John F. Eldredge]

Tobias Knerr  wrote:

> On 09.09.2012 17:43, Mike N wrote:
> >   I agree here - because it would still use OpenID, etc the only
> thing
> > to lose would be the capability to reuse the OSM password.   But as
> we
> > all know, reusing passwords across sites is a poor security practice
> and
> > should be discouraged.
> 
> I'm not sure what you are getting at. The concerns are about losing
> the
> ability to log in to the OSM help installation using the OSM account,
> which has nothing to do with reusing passwords.
> 
> >The added exposure through StackExchange can only help.  Highly
> > technical people are part of the population profile we are trying to
> > attract.
> 
> In my experience, new people go to that type of site when they have a
> question, i.e. *after* they have become aware of the project and
> started
> their first attempt to contribute to it or use it. That hardly makes
> it
> a good recruiting tool.
> 
> Tobias
> 
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I, for one, am a "technical person", having worked as a programmer/analyst for 
the last 26 years, and had never heard of StackExchange until the current 
discussion came along.

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Re: [OSM-talk] average speed as opposed to speed limit in calculating routes

[John F. Eldredge]

Pavel Melnikov  wrote:

> Hello all.
> There are some services (proprietary) that show traffic jams and
> events
> that can slow you down here in Russia. The values are collected from
> real
> users using mapping application that sends speed data. This data is
> also
> used to calculate routes.
> 
> This feature is very useful actually, and it would be great to
> implement
> something in OSM. However, I think it should not be included in static
> osm
> database using tags and values (because these values are likely to
> change
> rapidly), but use a different database (and different project maybe)
> that
> collects and shows on-line live data. For example, at rush hours we
> have
> many traffic jams, at night and on weekends we have none, all for the
> same
> street - and this live data could be used to calculate routes.
> 
> On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 4:41 PM, renato  wrote:
> 
> > Hi, I've been trying out the Waze android GPS navigator and the one
> > feature I really find useful of it is that, in route calculation, it
> > doesn't use the road speed limit but rather the actual average speed
> on
> > that road, calculated from the data gathered from other users
> driving
> > those roads.
> >
> > In a few days of use, I have discovered some new routes for places I
> > regularly go to, routes that are less known but certainly faster
> (avoid
> > traffic lights for example). Also the time estimates are way better
> > than Osmand (the only OSM navigator I actively used, but I plan on
> > trying other ones).
> >
> > Could something like this be done in OSM? Has someone ever thought
> of
> > it? First thought would be an average_speed_by_car tag, that
> navigators
> > could use in calculating routes. Even better would be an automated
> way
> > of updating these tags by users using the navigator.
> >
> > just curious to know thoughts about this idea,
> >
> > cheers
> > renato
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >
> >
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It could be useful to have both average-speed and current-speed information 
available.  I agree, however, that the current-speed information should go 
somewhere other than in the OSM database.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine

[John F. Eldredge]

Cartinus  wrote:

> 
> 
> On 08/02/2012 09:47 PM, iONiX wrote:
> > On 02.08.2012 21:38, Lester Caine wrote:
> >> [...]
> >>>
> >>> If I understand You correct - it is desirable to go through all
> exUSSR
> >>> countries and change every object name tag to whatever is
> mentioned on
> >>> signs?
> >>
> >> If they are currently NOT showing what is on the sign then YES, and
> in
> >> my book that is not even up for discussion!
> >> If I can't photograph what appears on the base map ... it's wrong,
> and
> >> should be tagged as that so it can be fixed ...
> >> If there IS no sign, then it's obviously a matter for argument what
> is
> >> used, and it that case I'd prefer not to render anything since that
> is
> >> the case on the ground. Translated options for names can then be
> freely
> >> used for translated maps.
> > 
> > Ok, than I want to see, what community will be first to report me to
> DWG.
> 
> Are you the _local_ community in all those places? Don't think so.
> 
> -- 
> ---
> m.v.g.,
> Cartinus
> 


"My name is Legion, for we are many."

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Re: [OSM-talk] OT - Unusual Bing imagery

[John F. Eldredge]

Mike N  wrote:

> 
> I spotted this today as I was entering survey information:
> 
> http://greenvilleopenmap.info/Airplane.jpg
> 
>I didn't realize that the Bing planes flew so high.
> 

It looks like the plane in the photograph is in the process of taking off or 
landing,  and thus is considerably closer to the ground than usual. 

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tag combinations: amenity and highway

[John F. Eldredge]

netman55  wrote:

> Perhaps it means the bus parks on the bus stop, eg. driver parks his
> bus 
> on a end of route bus stop, goes off has a break and comes back,
> drives 
> off back down the route he/she came
> 
> On 13/06/2012 13:23, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> > 2012/6/13 Jaakko Helleranta.com:
> >> Imho in your cases amenity=bus_stop + parking=yes doesn't sound bad
> at all for bus stops targeted to (partly car traveling) commuters, for
> example.
> >
> > I don't think that amenity=bus_stop parking=yes does make any sense.
> > You can park in a lot of places, shall we add parking=yes to all of
> > them? You can also chew gum there, should we also add
> > chew_chewing_gum=yes?
> >
> > A parking is an area, a bus stop is more or less a point. If the two
> > are close, you can see this in the db (and potentially also, if
> there
> > are any linear barriers between them). IMHO there is no need or
> sense
> > in combining the two, but if I were to emphasize on a parking with
> > annected bus stop I'd see it as an extra property of the parking,
> not
> > the bus stop.
> >
> > cheers,
> > Martin
> >
> > ___
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> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >
> 
> 
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More likely, it is meant for "park and ride" lots, where you have a parking lot 
whose use is restricted to those riding the bus.  Typically, these lots will be 
on or near the outermost end of radial bus routes, and are used by commuters.

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Re: [OSM-talk] In Germany errors on mapdust

[John F. Eldredge]

Philip Barnes  wrote:

> I regularly see errors posted on mapdust similar to this,
> 
> "I have put in a UK destination in Shrewsbury but the map appears to
> be
> in Germany."
> 
> I have been closing these as they are nothing to do with OSM, but
> anyone
> have any idea why they occur, and why is it always Germany?
> 
> I am seeing them in both Shropshire and Leicestershire, so doubt they
> are posted by the same person.
> 
> Thanks Phil
> 
> 
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At a guess, there is a program bug that is using a constant value as part of 
the coordinates, rather than what the user entered, and which coincidentally 
causes the resulting coordinates to point to a location in Germany.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] New access tag value needed?

[John F. Eldredge]

Philip Barnes  wrote:

> On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 14:41 +0200, Martin Vonwald wrote:
> > 2012/5/31 Richard Mann :
> > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-17530125
> > >
> > > (lorry stuck on very tight corner)
> > >
> > > This is tagged hgv=unsuitable in OSM
> > > http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/69590803
> > 
> > In my opinion this doesn't need a special tag. Because the geometry
> of
> > the way (together with the tag width, if necessary) should carry
> > enough information.
> Where there is signage stating 'Un-suitable For HGV', then the tag is
> valid and should be used, as should 'Un-suitable For Motors', although
> there are a few that I doubt the validity of.
> 
> A couple of Google examples http://goo.gl/maps/JoD9 and
> http://goo.gl/maps/LCw9. I love the 2nd, 'Unsuitable For Motors'
> combined with NSL.
> 
> Phil
> 
> 
> Phil
> 

I know of one access road here in Nashville, Tennessee, USA that has signs 
saying "no trucks", because of the abrupt transition from a downward slope to 
level pavement.  A smaller vehicle can make the transition, but a 
tractor-trailer rig (an HGV, in British terms) is at risk of having the top 
back of the tractor crushed against the top front of the trailer.  The 
ASCII-art version would be something like __/.  Since OSM mapping normally 
doesn't include contours, this wouldn't be obvious on a map.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] Cycle lanes & cycle tracks - my findings and a proposal

[John F. Eldredge]

Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

> 2012/5/23 Martin Vonwald :
> >> So I end up with 4 ways (highway, 2 sidewalks, cyclelane), one
> >> relation (area) and some nodes (lowered kerbs). Of course this is
> more
> >> complex, but you also get a whole lot more of detail,
> >
> > I see it the other way around: the increase in complexity does not
> > justify the increase in detail.
> 
> 
> I fail to understand this sentence. Did you mean it the other way
> round? (increase in detail does not justify the increasing
> complexity?)
> 
> 
> >> especially if
> >> there is more stuff to take into account (geometry not perfectly
> >> parallel, barriers which are (partially) between the sidewalk and
> the
> >> road, ability to map barriers on the sidewalk only, etc.
> > If one would allow to change the width of the xway-parts, you could
> > map geometry that is not perfectly parallel.
> 
> 
> what exactly are these xways? How would they end up in the database?
> Is it another osm-feature (besides ways, nodes, rels), or is it a way
> with special tags? How do they relate to current ways?
> 
> 
> >>> If I
> >>> want to move the "street" I have to move seven ways.
> >> why would you want to move a street that you have surveyed up to
> this
> >> level of detail? I think this is hypothetical (and btw: it is 6 in
> >> your example).
> >
> > Japan moved a few meters not so long ago.
> 
> 
> this won't be a problem and you know this: simply move the whole of
> Japan, as it is an island this is trivial (if the movement is the same
> everywhere).

Note that (a) Japan is an archipelago, not just a single island, and (b) in an 
earthquake, different sections of land commonly shift relative to each other, 
along fault lines.  Not everything moves in the same direction, or to the same 
extent.  Sometimes, coastlines change as a given section of land is raised 
above sea level, or dropped below sea level.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit review: "building"="levels=N"

[John F. Eldredge]

Worst Fixer  wrote:

> Hello.
> 
> I ask you to review my planned mechanical edit.
> 
> There are 400+ ways tagged "building"="levels=N" in database.
> 
> I propose changing tags to building=yes; building:levels=N for these
> ways.
> 
> Also I propose removal of "addr:housenumber=?" on these objects, and
> move
> "name=N" to "addr:housenumber=N".
> 
> Here is overview of affected objects:
> 
> http://worstfixer.000a.biz/03-building=levels/overview.html
> 
> Here is file with edits I plan to upload:
> 
> http://worstfixer.000a.biz/03-building=levels/edits-to-upload.osm.bz2
> 
> If no valid objections or improvement proposals are raised, I will
> upload
> this change file on 2012-05-27.
>
Have you reviewed all 400+ ways to make sure that all of the name= tags have 
addresses, rather than containing building names?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Ways in old mediterranean and similar towns.

[John F. Eldredge]

Maarten Deen  wrote:

> On 21-3-2012 17:35, Janko Mihelić wrote:
>  > Mappers in these towns treat ways in old parts of their town as
> > something that can't be a footpath. For some reason it insults their
> > vision of those ways. That's why they tag them as pedestrian
> highways
> > although no cars ever went through them (well, maybe some small
> delivery
> > vehicles). Another reason is that the names of those ways have
> "street"
> 
>  From the map_features wiki page:
> highway=pedestrian: For roads used mainly/exclusively for 
> pedestrians/shopping areas. Also for tagging squares and plazas
> 
> So why would it be incorrect to map these as pedestrian? The fact that
> 
> motorvehicles don't use them has nothing to do with it.
> 
> Maarten
> 

Yes, the definition of "highway" used in OSM covers more than just 
motor-vehicle routes.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Way with only one single node

[John F. Eldredge]

ThomasB  wrote:

> 
> John F. Eldredge wrote
> > 
> > ThomasB <toba0211@> wrote:
> > 
> >> I am wondering how a way with only one node can exist in the
> database.
> >> I have
> >> deleted it but how many still exist? 
> >> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/154820504/history
> >> 
> > 
> > Since it takes at least two points to define a line, a way with only
> one
> > node would be zero units long, and effectively nonexistent.
> > 
> > 
> 
> Follow my link and you see, that what you call "nonexistent" does
> exist in
> OSM.
> 

That is why I stated "effectively" nonexistent.  If the rendering matches the 
data, it would render as a point, not as a line.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Way with only one single node

[John F. Eldredge]

ThomasB  wrote:

> I am wondering how a way with only one node can exist in the database.
> I have
> deleted it but how many still exist? 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/154820504/history
> 

Since it takes at least two points to define a line, a way with only one node 
would be zero units long, and effectively nonexistent.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Lightning fast car routing built on OpenStreetMap data, with draggable routes

[John F. Eldredge]

Nick Whitelegg  wrote:

> 
> I tried the route we went on holiday as a family in the 80s...
> Fernhurst, W Sussex, to Münstertal in Germany. Impressively fast.
> 
> The route was much as I remember as far as Reims... but then, rather
> than routing you along the A4 autoroute to Strasbourg and then down
> the German autobahn (forget the number) to Freiburg, it routed you
> much further south along French "N" roads. Is the motorway weighting
> high enough?
> 
> Nick
> 
> -Jean-Marc Liotier  wrote: -
> To: talk@openstreetmap.org
> From: Jean-Marc Liotier 
> Date: 17/03/2012 02:01PM
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Lightning fast car routing built on
> OpenStreetMap data, with draggable routes
> 
> On 03/17/2012 02:17 PM, Philip Barnes wrote:
> > The Inverness to Athens route does seem a bit bizarre. Not what I
> > would have expected.
> > 
> > Crossing the Pennines on the A66 is strange, continuing on the M6 is
> > the more normal route. Also crossing from the M2 to M20 to get to
> > Dover is strange, for a car the M2-A2 directly to Dover is quicker.
> > Most routing software does seem to prefer the tunnel over the ferry.
> > 
> > http://open.mapquest.co.uk, which also uses OSM mapping provides
> > more normal routing, certainly for the UK stage. Although it does
> > seem to struggle with routing in South Eastern Europe.
> > 
> > Google takes you through Italy and across the ferry to Greece, am
> > not sure of the relative merits of this route, over traveling
> > overland but it does start to ring alarm bells of real border
> > crossings and the need for additional insurance.
> 
> I went to Istanbul from France through the Croatian coast and Greece
> on
> the way in and through Italy on the way out. Apart from the touristic
> merits of either, Italy is certainly a faster way.
> 
> Strangely, OSMR won't give me a route through the Igoumenitsa-Brindisi
> ferry though the Mapnik render does show a ferry line between them...
> I'll have to take a look at the data. Without that ferry crossing, the
> route through Italy is not as short - which might explain the routing
> service's preference for the continental route.
> 

From what you and others have said, it sounds like the software is seeking for 
the shortest distance, rather than the shortest travel time.

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[OSM-talk] Inaccurate GPS location

[John F. Eldredge]

After reading a news article about the effect the current solar storm is 
expected to have on GPS accuracy, I decided to see where my cell phone's GPS 
thought I currently was.  Usually it is fairly accurate, but tonight it thought 
I was about 12 miles from my actual location.  I tried three different apps; 
all gave the same, wrong location.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK

[John F. Eldredge]

Steve Bennett  wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 1:15 AM, John F. Eldredge 
> wrote:
> > Here in the USA, highways commonly have signs stating the distance
> to the next major town.  Are such distance signs no longer used in
> Australia?
> 
> Yes - usually abbreviated to just one or two letters, eg "MB 40" might
> mean 40km to Mt Beauty. But I don't think we have precise markers
> indicating where exactly in town those distances are taken from.
> 
> Steve

We don't have "zero-point" markers in the USA, either, at least not from my 
experience.  However, the highway departments seem to be referring to some 
point in or near the center of the cities, judging from the distances shown.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK

[John F. Eldredge]

mick  wrote:

> 
> My original interest was if there was a specific point that said 'this
> is Sometown', where distances to adjacent towns were measured from,
> similar to the Australian convention where the "Zero Point" was set along
> the roadside, at the Post Office which was usually next door to or
> across the road from a 'coaching inn'.
> 
> This point rarely had anything to do with the geographic centre of
> town but served only as a survey benchmark.
> 
> As Phillip, yourself and a few other people have pointed out these
> points have little remaining relevance in current times, especially
> for routing.
> 
> The only place where I've found this concept still in use is
> Queensland Rail's Brisbane suburban network, where the track at
> stations is marked with the distance to Central Station and the
> markings are maintained.
> 
> mick
> 

Here in the USA, highways commonly have signs stating the distance to the next 
major town.  Are such distance signs no longer used in Australia?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK

[John F. Eldredge]

mick  wrote:

> On Fri, 02 Mar 2012 20:16:18 +
> Philip Barnes  wrote:
> 
> > I have found some interesting stuff whilst playing with routing on
> > http://open.mapquest.org (which uses OSM). Have found that it cannot
> > route to Shrewsbury. 
> > 
> > Have found that the town waypoint has been put in the middle of a
> retail
> > area, with pedestrianised streets around. Am guessing it is because
> it
> > is too far from a road. It works if I ask for High Street,
> Shrewsbury.
> > 
> > Have moved it so that it is close to High Street and once mapquest
> has
> > updated the map I will see if it works again. But maybe this is
> > something else we should consider.
> > 
> > A good example of TomTom/google getting it wrong is Ironbridge,
> where it
> > leads you into a back street, rather than the centre i.e. the
> bridge.
> > 
> 
> My Navman (MY50 I think) also has problems generating a route to just
> a town or suburb without a street name.
> 
> At the times these towns developed very few people had a car and even
> fewer had sat-nav units so the 'rule of thumb' didn't need to take
> vehicular access into account. Now social engineers have had their
> evil way, the 'rule' joins dinosaurs, woolly mammoths and this old
> System/370 operator on the dusty shelves of the museum and its up to
> the new generations to clean up our mess.
> 
> mick
> 

Another issue you are likely to encounter is a town that has grown in an 
asymmetric manner, so that the current geometric center is offset, perhaps by a 
large amount, from the historic center point.  This is particularly true where 
a natural barrier, such as a lake, adjoins the town.

Here in the USA, some small towns that have experienced most of their growth 
during the automobile age are essentially one-dimensional, extending for 
several miles along a main road, but extending only a block or two at right 
angles to that main road.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Finding untagged dead-ends

[John F. Eldredge]

p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote:

> I am struggling to understand why this is seen as an error that needs
> fixing.
> 
> I can think of plenty of roads that end in eithsr a dead end or become
> a footpath, bridleway. Many are single track where the only way out is
> a very long reverse. These are a feature of the landscape, and often a
> result of the enclosure acts. They should be left well alone.
> 
> Phil
> 
> 
> On 15/02/2012 11:14 Josh Doe wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 12:41 AM, Nathan Edgars II
>  wrote:
> > Is there a way (in JOSM or otherwise) to find all dead-ends (nodes
> contained
> > in only one highway way) without highway=turning_circle or
> noexit=yes in an
> > area?
> 
> There's a ticket that would help accomplish this [0]. You could then
> do a search like "-(highway=mini_roundabout OR highway=turning_circle
> OR noexit=yes) child:0,-1 highway=* type:way". At the moment I can't
> think of a way to select nodes with only one parent way. If I'm not
> missing something and this functionality isn't implemented yet, it
> wouldn't be hard, just need to create a ticket and choose an
> appopriate keyword: "nparents" "nchildren"?
> 
> -Josh
> 
> [0]: http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/7262
> 

Dead-end streets are common in residential neighborhoods here in Nashville, TN, 
USA.  Older parts of the city, pre-World-War-II, are mostly laid out in grid 
patterns, but the majority of post-World-War-II Nashville (which is to say 
about 80% of the city) was built one subdivision at a time.  Each subdivision 
is laid out in a tree pattern, with many dead-end streets off of a few major 
roads.  The radial roads generally date back to when this was farmland.  As a 
result, you sometimes have to drive a couple of miles in order to reach a 
destination only a few hundred feet from your starting point.  Some of these 
dead-end roads have turning circles at their end, some don't.  As far as I 
know, most don't have a noexit=yes tag.

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Re: [OSM-talk] "proprietary" keys and values, machine readable vs. humans

[John F. Eldredge]

Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

> 2012/1/24 Jonathan Bennett :
> > On 24/01/2012 11:22, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> >> I wonder if this kind of tagging should be tolerated. In the wiki I
> >> found no documentation regarding this tag, and therefore this data
> >> seems unusable for most mappers.
> >
> > Perhaps not, but systematically removing it won't improve anything
> > (since most apps will just ignore the tags), and will actually
> increase
> > the amount of storage needed (since a new version of the objects in
> > question will be created).
> >
> > We have (or at least, should have) a simple principle in OSM: Ignore
> > what you don't understand. That applies to mappers and to
> applications
> > using the data. The alternative is edit wars where one mapper things
> a
> > particular tag -- that otherwise does them no harm -- is "wrong" and
> > starts removing them and their creator puts them back.
> 
> 
> While I understand the idea behind (deletions also occupy space/need
> computing power, at least if performed via the API), I still feel that
> we should have a policy to request tags and values to be human
> readable.
> 
> How would you improve / modify (say split) an object where you don't
> understand part of the tags applied to it?
> 
> Imagine that this tendency grows stronger and a few imports later our
> db would have more crypted keys then "readable" ones. If osm is about
> open data, it should be really open, not only freely available but
> unusable because crypted. Why should we use free and open ressources
> to distribute free-but-not-open content?
> 
> cheers,
> Martin
> 

In cases where data is arranged in multiple tables, and the purpose of a 
particular field is to link two tables together, rather than directly 
describing an attribute, it is best to use an otherwise-arbitrary numeric value 
as the link value.  That way, updating the descriptive fields doesn't break the 
link.  Also, it is best to have an attribute described in just one of a group 
of associated records; otherwise, it is easy to get contradictions.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Request for Romano-British features

[John F. Eldredge]

Chillly  wrote:

> John Sturdy  wrote:
> 
> >On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Nathan Edgars II 
> >wrote:
> >
> >> For something like this, where there is very limited overlap
> between
> >past
> >> and present, it makes sense to use a separate database. But in
> cases
> >where
> >> most of the features still exist, such as railways or Roman roads,
> >it's
> >> silly to duplicate the effort between databases (or somehow require
> >everyone
> >> improving a way in one to upload it to the other and fix all
> >intersections).
> >
> >Agreed.
> >
> >As long as the tagging used is such that things that no longer exist
> >are not normally rendered (and only show as thin outlines on standard
> >editors) I think including historic data shouldn't be a problem.
> >Compared with the amount of modern ("current") data, there's not
> >really that much of it, anyway, so its effect on the storage
> >requirements is going to be fairly small; and we still meet the
> >requirement of the most accurate map of what is current.
> >
> >__John
> 
> There is an abandoned railway line near me which has become reused as
> a cycle trail. The cycle trail had a name so someone who wanted to add
> a name to the railway created a separate way with the railway tags on
> it and its name. The modern cycleway and abandoned railway are the
> same physical structure, so two ways is, IMHO, one too many. If the
> naming issue (and any other repeated tags ) can be resolved having
> historical data in the db seems fine to me. Road naming could suffer
> the same issue with a modern name and, say, a roman name. Named
> relations may be over the top.
> 
> Rendering such historic data on the default Mapnik render is another
> thing. Displaying historic stuff that is not visible now deserves its
> own separate render.
> 
> Cheers, Chris
> User chillly

It would make sense to have a separate render, and also to have a way to toggle 
visibility of historical data in the editor.  It would be useful if the state 
of that toggle was saved, on a per-user basis, from one editing session to the 
next.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Request for Romano-British features

[John F. Eldredge]

Graham Jones  wrote:

> On 2 January 2012 15:47, Lester Caine  wrote:
> 
> > Historic mapping wiki page has yet to be created, but start_date and
> > end_date would seem to replace the need for Key:historic:period if
> accurate
> > data is available.
> >
> I think the issue is availability of accurate data - I am pretty
> confident
> that I can look at a building and think it is Tudor, or a fortress and
> guess that it is Nepoleonic, but guessing the date seem somehow harder
> to
> me.
> I would like the tagging to be accessible to non-history buffs, so
> more
> qualitative categories would seem easier than trying to be too
> precise.  By
> all means include start_date if it is known though!
> 
> >
> > Having been watching a program recently on the development of
> various
> > industrial areas of the UK, it would seem that there is substantial
> data
> > available to provide historic maps. Development and decline of the
> railway
> > system for example is something I've been gathering historic maps
> that
> > provides considerable accurate timelines.
> >
> I like this sort of thing too, which is why we will need more
> categories
> than currently proposed 'modern' is too wide given all the changes in
> the
> 20th Century.
> 
> 
> > The only question that still has not been addressed is one that
> covers a
> > lot of parallel data. SHOULD it be uploaded to the main database, or
> should
> > we have a working method for linking secondary databases into the
> rendering
> > process. Which to my mind still provides the most logical way
> forward. But
> > at what point does an historic element get degraded to the secondary
> > storage area? Or more important ... what classifies historic data as
> being
> > 'main stream'?
> >
> > My view is that if it is something that is still there on the ground
> (e.g.
> the ruins of an old tin mine), then it should go in the main database.
>   If
> there is nothing physically to see, it belongs in a specialist
> historic
> map. I haven't thought about how to make this separate map though
>
As far as rendering is concerned, it would be useful to be able to set starting 
and ending dates for a given renderiing, so that eventually you compare a 
series of maps and see patterns of changes.  In some cases, you might want to 
show only the time period of interest; in other cases, you might want to show 
both historic data and current-day data.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Vector maps for Android

[John F. Eldredge]

Mike N  wrote:

> On 11/27/2011 4:30 PM, yvecai wrote:
> >> Unless you are talking about a very small area, say just a
> kilometer
> >> or so across, I don 't think you are likely to get good results
> trying
> >> to render maps directly on the phone.  Phones are rather limited in
> >> memory and CPU speed compared to even a low-end desktop or laptop
> >> computer.
> >>
> > John, you would be very surprised by the vector rendering on some
> phones:
> > You can load 1GB pbf of your country in a phone, and browse the map.
> As
> > simple as that !
> 
> I've been playing with the new PocketEarth, recently released for IOS.
> 
> It browses very smoothly between max zoom and min zoom - progressively
> 
> removing or adding details. 
> http://www.geomagik.com/en/pocketearth.html
> 

I played around a bit with the vector-map mode of OSMAND today, and found that 
it worked better than I had expected.  Whatever rules it has for deciding what 
to draw at a given zoom level work well.

I had mixed results with searching for POIs.  None of the restaurants near me 
that are in the OSM database were found if I search for restaurants, but they 
are found if I search for them by name.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Vector maps for Android

[John F. Eldredge]

Parveen Arora  wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> Please let me know some good application to use vector data of osm on
> android phone becase tiles needs a lot of bandwidth to access the maps
> easily.
> 
> I have tried many applications but not found any satisfactory
> applocation
> till now.
> 
> All the applications availble are third party  applications and ask to
> pay
> for them at some point.
> 
> I want to know is there any official osm application for android or if
> there is any work going on it.
> 

Unless you are talking about a very small area, say just a kilometer or so 
across, I don 't think you are likely to get good results trying to render maps 
directly on the phone.  Phones are rather limited in memory and CPU speed 
compared to even a low-end desktop or laptop computer.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Blocked applications at tile server

[John F. Eldredge]

"Jaakko Helleranta.com"  wrote:

> Hi John,
> Would u like to share ur experience with BB mapping apps? Anything
> worth noting/recommending?
> the reason I'm asking is that BB is the de facto smartphone standard
> in Haiti where I'm currently based.
> Thnx,
> -Jaakko
> Osm.org/user/jaakkoh
>  
> ------Original Message--
> From: John F. Eldredge
> To: Talk@OSM
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Blocked applications at tile server
> Sent: Nov 21, 2011 21:24
> 
> Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
> 
> > Ideally we would have dedicated smartphone mapping apps, for which
> we
> > would
> > happily permit tile/API access. No, I'm not volunteering to write
> one,
> > but I
> > have a suspicion we'll see at least one such app within the year. ;)
> 
> 
> There are dozens of such dedicated smartphone mapping apps, for many
> different smartphones, as you will find if you search the OSM wiki. 
> They have been around for years; I started using my first such app, on
> a Blackberry, about three years ago.  I have several dedicated
> mapmaking apps on my current Android phone.
> 
>
I have to admit that I didn't explore very far into the range of mapping 
programs available on the BlackBerry Storm.  I mostly used an app called 
BigTinCan mapper, which allowed you to set up a limited variety of POIs, record 
a raw GPS track for later upload, or copy the current GPS coordinates to the 
clipboard.  I also downloaded and installed a more sophisticated program called 
TrackMyJourney, but never fully mastered it.  I ended up doing most of my 
editing via Potlatch, on my laptop.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Blocked applications at tile server

[John F. Eldredge]

Richard Fairhurst  wrote:

> Ideally we would have dedicated smartphone mapping apps, for which we
> would
> happily permit tile/API access. No, I'm not volunteering to write one,
> but I
> have a suspicion we'll see at least one such app within the year. ;)


There are dozens of such dedicated smartphone mapping apps, for many different 
smartphones, as you will find if you search the OSM wiki.  They have been 
around for years; I started using my first such app, on a Blackberry, about 
three years ago.  I have several dedicated mapmaking apps on my current Android 
phone.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Here's what they do in Korea

[John F. Eldredge]

John Harvey  wrote:

> One of the problems I think we have is road widths.  Mapnik currently 
> renders all highways of the same type the same width - it ignores
> lanes 
> and width:
> 

This is also the case on every commercially-published map I have ever seen; the 
road width on the map reflects the importance of the road, not the physical 
number of lanes.  At higher zooms, divided highways do tend to show separate 
lines for the two halves of the highway.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Address improvement through imports?

[John F. Eldredge]

Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 7:35 AM, Steven Johnson 
> wrote:
> > Up to now, we've been talking largely about addresses as point
> features.
> > However, one thing I think would be good to have is block ranges on
> streets.
> > What I mean is a tag that indicates this is the 1000 block, the 1100
> block,
> > the 1200 block, etc. Rather than being a point feature attached to
> > buildings, it would be a tag associated with the way. It would be
> much
> > easier to implement, make the map renderings much more presentable
> at small
> > scales, and provide better address utility than presently exists.
> 
> Ranges are what 'all the others' use and are familiar territory for
> all navigation applications. They rarely if ever rely on address
> points and do interpolation, which works well in urban areas but can
> be miles off in rural areas.
> 
> I think that ranges are good for a first iteration because they're
> less cumbersome to collect and map. They do require cutting up the
> ways at junctions like Richard mentions. Where there's no data
> available to import and / or not a lot of local mappers, ranges may be
> as good as it gets for OSM. Where there is good quality data to import
> and/or enough dedicated mappers, they should be replaced by address
> points, I think.
> 
> Another thought: the ranges could be derived from the cross streets,
> couldn't they? At least here in Salt Lake the addresses on 900W
> between 100S and 200S are all in the 100-200 range. And if they can be
> derived, what use is it to duplicate the information?
>

One thing that would reduce the visual clutter would be for the renderers to 
display no addresses at low levels of zoom, address ranges at medium levels of 
zoom (whether entered directly by taggers or interpolated), and to only display 
individual addresses at high levels of zoom.  It might be good for there to be 
rules based upon address density to decide when to switch over from ranges to 
individual addresses.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenMaps App Blocked By OpenStreetMap

[John F. Eldredge]

"ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen"  wrote:

> I am a user of your product, and I think you made a nice
> product. I also think that now your product is mature (25+),
> it's time for you to supply your own tiles to your users.
> Not only would that allow a better service to us, but also
> makes it possible for us to download all zoom levels
> and to create a better map, as you may render more
> then one view on the world. (cycles, walking, skiing hills etc)
> 
> OSM provides free map data but:
> Free data is one, but free tile access is something else.
> 
> The download feature of openmaps is a paid extension to
> openmaps. 
> With the money it earns it may be easy to setup 
> your own servers...
> 
> A bit of negotiations with the community might even 
> lead to mutual load sharing, a win-win for all of us.
> 
> 
> 
> (Also Openmaps is not an editor, but merely a map viewer.
> For us to use it as an editor an additional fee
> needs to be paid.  I think that is strange.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gert Gremmen
> -
> 
> Openstreetmap.nl  (alias: cetest)
>  Before printing, think about the environment. 
> 
> 
> 
> -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
> Van: Zsombor Szabó [mailto:zsom...@gmail.com] 
> Verzonden: Saturday, October 08, 2011 2:40 PM
> Aan: OSM Talk
> Onderwerp: [OSM-talk] OpenMaps App Blocked By OpenStreetMap
> 
> Dear OSMers,
> 
> we, the developers of OpenMaps, wrote a blog post about OpenMaps
> getting blocked by OpenStreetMap Mapnik tile servers:
> http://blog.izeize.com/2011/10/openmaps-app-blocked-by-openstreetmap.html
> 
> For convenience I pasted the whole text of the blog post below:
> 
> Earlier this week it came to my attention that OpenMaps' access was
> blocked to the OpenStreetMap "Mapnik" tile servers.
> 
> We suspect that the reason why it was blocked is a tool named the
> Download tool. The Download tool enables users to download an area of
> a map from a given map tile server, even custom ones. Users were using
> this tool to download map tiles from the OpenStreetMap "Mapnik" tile
> servers and with this behavior they were violating the tile usage
> policy of OpenStreetMap.
> 
> We are very sorry for causing such a problem for the OpenStreetMap
> project. To our defense, the tile usage policy wasn't available when
> we first introduced the Download tool in OpenMaps.
> 
> Today we submitted an updated version (v4.5.4) of OpenMaps to the App
> Store and are waiting for approval from Apple. The following
> modifications were made to the app:
> - Download tool is still present with a clear discouraging message
> that it should not be used in abusive behavior.
> - Maximum of 2 download threads.
> - Download disabled for 17, 18 and 19 zoom levels.
> - User agent of non-bulk downloading of map tiles was changed to
> "Op3nMaps(Not.Bulk.Download)/x CFNetwork/x Darwin/x" while the user
> agent for bulk downloading remains unmodified (OpenMaps/x CFNetwork/x
> Darwin/x).
> 
> This way browsing and bulk downloading users can clearly be identified
> on the server side and throttled or banned if necessary.
> 
> This is our short term solution for the problem, but the long term
> solution is clearly a vector based renderer. I previously alluded that
> it is coming on my twitter profile.
> 
> About OpenMaps:
> OpenMaps is a powerful iOS app based on maps and web services around
> OpenStreetMap. To date it was downloaded more than 250.000 times and
> as of 2011.09.07 it is the 7th most popular OSM editor.
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> Zsombor Szabo
> IZE, Ltd.
> http://izeize.com
> 
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There are multiple sites that render map tiles based upon the OpenStreetMap 
database.  Since these different renderers serve different purposes, they don't 
all render the same subset of data.  Having a single official set of tiles, 
rather than different sets for different purposes, would reduce the usefulness 
of the data.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Barriers of Entry

[John F. Eldredge]

Ian Sergeant  wrote:

> I said:
> 
> > Training and skills acquisition before undertaking complex tasks is
> > a fairly commonplace activity in our society. 
>  
> Gert Gremmen"  wrote on 15/09/2011 04:50:11 PM:
> 
> > No but the difference between Stalinism and OSM is that we do not 
> *oblige*
> > people to follow a training process.
> 
> Easily solved.
> 
> A tickbox saying "I know what I am doing, leave me alone" and you get
> full 
> access.
> 
> The idea here is to make people more comfortable with contributing to
> OSM, 
> not less.  By putting a "safety barrier" around what is easy,
> beginners 
> will feel more comfortable contributing.  A graduated system hopefully
> 
> ensures that their first experience is a positive one, not an "I've 
> stuffed everything up" one, and there is a clear track to
> understanding 
> the more complex elements of OSM.
> 
> Ian

Speaking of barriers, your messages would be much easier to read if you used a 
larger font, or else used plain text mode.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability

[John F. Eldredge]

straup  wrote:

> I'm not going to pretend to understand the guts of the OSM code well 
> enough to suggest that supersedes/superseded_by would be easy to 
> implement or not but it's always seemed like a useful approach to me.
This supersedes / is superseded by approach would work, although there would 
need to be provision for a database object to supersede multiple objects (a 
merge operation) or be superseded by several objects (a split operation).

-- 
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"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

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Re: [OSM-talk] Id stability

[John F. Eldredge]

Gregor Horvath  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Am Mon, 01 Aug 2011 09:21:44 +0200
> schrieb Frederik Ramm :
>  
> > That was me. There are a number of other reasons why IDs could
> > "break". One is the expansion of POI nodes into buildings that Toby
> > mentioned. Another is the splitting of ways (old ID would then point
> > to only half) or merging (old ID would become invalid in 50% of
> > cases). Same with the re-structuring of relations or the re-mapping
> > of stuff in the course of the license change.
> 
> It is a logically inaccurate to delete an ID in such cases.
> What you actually logically do is replacing an ID, or creating an
> alias.
> The problem is there is no semantic in OSM data to express such a move
> operation. Deleting is the wrong one. Deleting means a destroyed house
> or physically removed street and in this case it is logically correct
> that the ID is gone.
> 
> So my proposal is to describe move operations in OSM data.
> For example: Instead of deleting, all tags of the object or removed
> and
> a "alias_for" "joined_with" "splitted_to" tag(s) which points
> to the new correct node(s) ID is inserted to the old node .
> 
> Than external programs can find the proper one with the old id and the
> OSM data gets richer and more accurate.
> 
> --
> Greg
> 
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Preferably "split_to", rather than "splitted_to", since there is no such 
English word as "splitted".  Otherwise, this sounds like a good idea.  Note 
that there might need to be multiple instances of such a tag, with some form of 
version information as part of the value.  For example, a POI node might later 
be joined to be part of an area representing a shop; this shop area might later 
be joined to others to represent an entire building that contains several shops.
-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

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Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names

[John F. Eldredge]

andrzej zaborowski  wrote:

> On 27 July 2011 12:01, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
> > Increasingly you can treat "St" as a valid spelling of the word
> "saint",
> > rather than merely an abbreviation. No (educated) native English
> speaker
> > would write a placename with 'Saint', and every native English
> speaker would
> > pronunce St in that context as 'saint'.
> 
> Still only if provided with enough context to correctly guess which of
> the words spelt St it is.  This isn't the most complicated case, you
> only need to process about one word ahead as context (or in this case
> perhaps just knowing it's at the start of the name), but for many
> tasks it would be great to eliminate the guessing.
> 
> Cheers
> 
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That is the reason I feel that it would be best to store the fully-spelled-out 
name, and then apply localized rules to look up any abbreviations needed at 
rendering time.   Using the full form to determine the abbreviation is much 
less ambiguous than the other way around.

-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

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Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names

[John F. Eldredge]

Ed Loach  wrote:

> > > i've been told it's st albans, not saint albans as i 'corrected'
> it to
> > 
> > I think it is actually written "St Albans" as stated above.
> 
> Yes, it is called Saint Albans, written St Albans, except where some
> websites seem to have expanded it. 
> 
> e.g.
> http://www.meteoprog.co.uk/en/weather/SaintAlbans/
> http://www.gomapper.com/travel/map-of/saint-albans.html
> etc...
> http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=%22saint+albans%22
> 
> I personally would be tempted to store the name tag in expanded form
> so it is clear what the St abbreviation applies to (I've seen things
> like S St N on Google where they've abbreviated South Street North,
> for example, which just looks silly). This seems to agree with
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name#Notes
> 
> Ed
> 
> 
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It makes sense to me to store the fully-spelled-out version of the name, and 
then have a local-language-based way of looking up abbreviations.  This would 
lead to less ambiguity than having a program try to guess which terms are 
abbreviations, and what they are abbreviations for, since there may sometimes 
be more than one possible expanded form.

-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

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Re: [OSM-talk] shortened names

[John F. Eldredge]

Richard Fairhurst  wrote:

> Frederik Ramm wrote:
> > Oh, that's relatively benign. There are people with that name who 
> > would try to grab attention with "ℳ∡ℝℸⅈℿ" or something.
> 
> Oh, we really should produce a map which renders the name High Street
> as
> H16H 5tr33t, etc.
> 
> It could be called Open1337Map.
> 
> cheers
> Richard
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/shortened-names-tp6556816p6623367.html
> Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 
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All this reminds me of the musician called Prince.  A few years ago, he wanted 
out of a contract with his publisher.  They said, "Go ahead, but we have rights 
to the name Prince, so you will have to use a different name."  This would 
effectively force him to start over on having people recognize his name.  
However, he took advantage of a loophole in the law, and chose a couple of 
glyphs with no spoken equivalent as his legal name.  So, he was commonly 
referred to as "the artist formerly known as Prince", thus reminding everyone 
of his former name.  Eventually, the publishers gave in and allowed him to 
resume using the name Prince.

-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

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Re: [OSM-talk] Join the OSMF !

[John F. Eldredge]

Dermot McNally  wrote:

> On 11 June 2011 02:13, John F. Eldredge  wrote:
> 
> > When I signed up in the first place, I was required to say "I accept
> having my data placed under the CC-by-SA license", but, unlike the new
> license, I was not required to waive my right to have a say in any
> future license change.
> 
> You are not waiving your right to have a say with the new CT. You are
> waiving your right to have a veto. I can't name a single mapper
> important enough to have one of those.
> 
> 
> > The OSMF is replacing democracy with oligarchy, so that, in the
> future, no mappers except the tiny fraction who are members of the
> OSMF will have a say in any future license change, such as changing
> over to charging for the use of map data.
> 
> No, we've never had democracy prior to CT. What we've had is a
> situation where any one mapper may erect a barrier to whatever
> decision needs to be made. CT replaces this with democracy requiring a
> 2/3 majority of active mappers. Those mappers do not have to be OSMF
> members as your comments above suggest. Have you actually read the CT?
> 
> Dermot

Yes, I have read the Contributor Terms.  Have you?  The contributor terms that 
were publicly announced included having to agree in advance to any future 
changes in the licensing, or else have my existing edits removed and be unable 
to contribute any further edits.  This forced agreeing in advance means that we 
won't be given the chance to vote yes or no in the future.  This is democracy 
only in the sense of the sham elections held in dictatorships.


-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

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Re: [OSM-talk] Join the OSMF !

[John F. Eldredge]

Dermot McNally  wrote:

> On 11 June 2011 00:53, John F. Eldredge  wrote:
> 
> > True.  I clicked the button to accept the license, since this was
> necessary in order to continue editing, but I don't much care for the
> license.  In particular, I disliked the fact that you had to agree in
> advance, sight unseen, to any future changes in the license.
> 
> Wasn't this a provision of CC-BY-SA too? Why is it only a problem when
> applied to ODbL?

When I signed up in the first place, I was required to say "I accept having my 
data placed under the CC-by-SA license", but, unlike the new license, I was not 
required to waive my right to have a say in any future license change.  The 
OSMF is replacing democracy with oligarchy, so that, in the future, no mappers 
except the tiny fraction who are members of the OSMF will have a say in any 
future license change, such as changing over to charging for the use of map 
data.


-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

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Re: [OSM-talk] Join the OSMF !

[John F. Eldredge]

TimSC  wrote:

> On 10/06/11 21:50, Dermot McNally wrote:
> > On 10 June 2011 21:38, Nic Roets  wrote:
> >
> >> 2. How do they know that there is overwhelming support from the
> >> community ? (I don't believe the license change passed this test)
> and
> > Close to 99% of mappers who actively voted supported the change.
> I think you are confusing "support the relicense" with "accept the 
> relicense" and that difference is significant.
> 
> TimSC

True.  I clicked the button to accept the license, since this was necessary in 
order to continue editing, but I don't much care for the license.  In 
particular, I disliked the fact that you had to agree in advance, sight unseen, 
to any future changes in the license.


-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

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Re: [OSM-talk] Duplicate messages

[John F. Eldredge]

Steve Coast  wrote:

> maybe you are seeing the email to the list and the email to you too
> when 
> someone replies
>

I am seeing occasional duplicates of both original messages from other people 
and replies by other people.  So far, none of the duplicates have been more 
than a couple of days old.  I suppose it is also possible that my mail server 
(hosted by someone else) is having problems.

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John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
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think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

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[OSM-talk] Duplicate messages

[John F. Eldredge]

Is anyone else seeing occasional duplicate messages on this list?  I am seeing 
some messages show up multiple times, received over a several-day period, but 
all showing the same sent date/time.  If not, this may be the fault of the new 
mail reader software I am using.
-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

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Re: [OSM-talk] anonymous edits

[John F. Eldredge]

If someone turns out to be a troll, repeatedly and deliberately posting  
false information, how would they be blocked?  Would the Twitter scraper  
program need to be the step doing the blocking, since all changes to the OSM  
database would go in under the same user ID?


Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless

-Original message-
From: Martijn van Exel 
To: Talk Openstreetmap 
Sent: Thu, May 26, 2011 17:51:07 GMT+00:00
Subject: [OSM-talk] anonymous edits

Hi all,

Consider the following application scheme:
* a twitter user sends a geo-located tweet containing a specified
hashtag, say #addosm and key-value pairs like "amenity:pub;name:Red
Devil;smoking:yes"
* a twitter scraper picks up the tweet, archives it and posts a new
point using the twitter coordinate and the decoded k-v pairs, plus an
additional tag source:twitter[@twitteruser] or something like that.
This would be an easy way to add POIs on the go, and could be an
interface for mobile applications to post new POIs. This would not be
totally anonymous but it's close. What do you think, is this
acceptable? A similar level of anonymity is reached by WheelMap.org
that allows anonymous OSM edits through their web site via the OSM
account wheelmap_visitor[2].


[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Anonymous_edits
[2] http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/wheelmap_visitor
--
Martijn van Exel
http://about.me/mvexel

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