[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[TW Tones]

Mario,

With or without the menu bar plugin I expect people are more likely to want 
"their content", the first tiddler open to be the launch point for mobile 
wikis not dropping then user on the "sideBar" where one has to choose from 
a tab, many which are not relevant, to proceed. 

It would seem to me that an option to determine if the sidebar tab  is 
open/closed, on the top or bottom in *mobile mode* specifically is a 
desirable configuration option. If we look at other mobile themes we tend 
to see this implemented typically with a menu bar any way. It seems the 
default mobile mode should be a closed sidebar with a hamburger menu to 
open the side bar, in the window.

Regards
Tones


On Friday, 18 June 2021 at 18:58:52 UTC+10 PMario wrote:

> On Friday, June 18, 2021 at 7:02:32 AM UTC+2 TW Tones wrote:
>
> While on this layout question I have always felt the default in Mobile 
>> mode should be withe the sidebar closed or at the bottom as the footer. 
>> This is even more so when we now have the menu bar available.
>
>
> That's right. But the "menu bar" plugin isn't part of the empty-edition.
> -m
>

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Frank.brunsb... & all,

f.brunsb...@gmail.com wrote

> Apart from that, variable widths depending on your own screen would still 
> be worth considering for a default setting?
> You could use a min-width as well as a max-width for the Storyriver. 
> Designers and graphic artists like to work with the "golden ratio".
>

Right. The "golden ratio" is kinda helpful. TBH I use it in photography 
(visual medium) a lot, but the web is also "other" (largely textually 
organised medium) .

If I ever got time I'd love to do an internet version of MEDIEVAL 
MANUSCRIPTS that fill the page fully, all INLINE (in net jargon). 
Paragraphs are indicated by RUBICATION (starting paras in Red), not with 
blank links.

*Truth is, all this stuff is just conventions! *

Line length MAYBE needs to be CENTRALISED in TW at 80 chars / line for 
easier read. 
But if we went MEDIEVAL the font would be 3 times larger. 80 characters or 
less per screen width.

MY POINT is what we need is better FLEX on CSS not "perfect solutions" :-) 

Just my 2 cents!
TT

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[Frank Bruns-Ballhausen]

Hello folks,

I like Brian's idea of widening the tiddlers to the left (up to the 
available width) when editing. But this makes the whole layout very 
"unsteady".

Wouldn't it be worth thinking about offering not only switching between 
with and without preview when editing. But a third variant, which only 
shows the preview?
This is what ReText (a Markdown editor) does, for example. The best way to 
use this function is via a keyboard shortcut.
Just an idea. This is certainly not the right topic for it

Apopos topic. @pmario I think I have suppressed the possibility that this 
was about the empty.html, and I was too focused on my view. Sorry. 

Apart from that, variable widths depending on your own screen would still 
be worth considering for a default setting?
You could use a min-width as well as a max-width for the Storyriver. 
Designers and graphic artists like to work with the "golden ratio". 

Even though, like Mario, I think a story that is too broad with long 
sentences is hard to read. Here a good compromise could be found with a 
variable width.
Because we all know, that never fits all people.

Just an idea. - Frank

PMario schrieb am Freitag, 18. Juni 2021 um 10:58:52 UTC+2:

> On Friday, June 18, 2021 at 7:02:32 AM UTC+2 TW Tones wrote:
>
> While on this layout question I have always felt the default in Mobile 
>> mode should be withe the sidebar closed or at the bottom as the footer. 
>> This is even more so when we now have the menu bar available.
>
>
> That's right. But the "menu bar" plugin isn't part of the empty-edition.
> -m
>

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[PMario]

On Friday, June 18, 2021 at 7:02:32 AM UTC+2 TW Tones wrote:

While on this layout question I have always felt the default in Mobile mode 
> should be withe the sidebar closed or at the bottom as the footer. This is 
> even more so when we now have the menu bar available.


That's right. But the "menu bar" plugin isn't part of the empty-edition.
-m

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[TW Tones]

Folks,

While on this layout question I have always felt the default in Mobile mode 
should be withe the sidebar closed or at the bottom as the footer. This is 
even more so when we now have the menu bar available.

Personally the default view on desktop does not suit me, I immediately 
switch to fixed sidebar, fluid story to make full use of the real-estate. 
So even the centred view would not suit me unless I was considering making 
use of a Left hand sideBar. I have felt since TW5 that the old TWC left 
hand side bar should also be a core option, such as having a left/sidebar 
segment and left sidebar tabs etc..., perhaps not in use but only a tag 
away.

A fully addressable page layout with elements that appear if used could be 
achieved with flex and other layout methods. The layout in the thread would 
just me one configuration in a large set of possible layouts driven purely 
by the existence of contents/tiddlers so tagged.

Regards
Tones
On Friday, 18 June 2021 at 10:29:07 UTC+10 Brian Radspinner wrote:

> I've currently got a 3-column layout going: center is the normal view 
> mode; edit mode has the preview to the left and editor in the center; 
> sidebar the right column where I often display full tiddlers side-by-side 
> with the story river.[image: 3-column_layout.png]
> On Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 5:00:01 PM UTC-7 springer wrote:
>
>> Soren and all,
>>
>> The idea of asymmetrical edit/preview panes is appealing!
>>
>> In some cases, the edit window should be relatively wide (where markup 
>> source is longer than rendered result), but in other cases, the preview 
>> actually requires much *more* space than the edit box (because of 
>> transclusions, dynamic tables, etc.). 
>>
>> I wonder how hard it would be to make the column gutter moveable, and/or 
>> to get the preview to recognize (with some quick-and-dirty approximation) 
>> what kind of ratio might be suitable.
>>
>> -Springer
>>
>> On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 10:44:00 PM UTC-4 Soren Bjornstad wrote:
>>
>>> While we're discussing story river layouts, I've been playing with the 
>>> following odd-looking but surprisingly functional layout for a couple of 
>>> days, in an attempt to make optimal use of the 24" monitors where I do most 
>>> of my editing:
>>>
>>> [image: widening.png]
>>>
>>> As you can see, the story river is centered, but tiddlers get wider when 
>>> you go into edit mode, so there's additional space for a side-by-side 
>>> preview when editing but lines don't get too long to comfortably read when 
>>> viewing. I also changed the division between the editor and the preview to 
>>> 70/30 instead of 50/50, which usually gets the paragraphs on the left and 
>>> right to almost exactly line up, rather than the wikitext rapidly getting 
>>> longer than the preview (a smaller difference like 60/40 might be a better 
>>> compromise if you edit with a lot of images or transclusions).
>>>
>>> CSS on top of the default theme and fluid-fixed layout:
>>>
>>> div.tc-tiddler-frame { max-width: 60em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: 
>>> auto; }
>>> div.tc-tiddler-edit-frame { max-width: 90em; margin-left: auto; 
>>> margin-right: auto; }
>>> div.tc-tiddler-body { max-width: 50em; margin: auto; }
>>> .tc-tiddler-frame .tc-tiddler-preview .tc-edit-texteditor { width: 69%; }
>>> div.tc-tiddler-preview-preview { width: 29%; }
>>>
>>> Still in alpha stages, and probably much too odd to implement in core, 
>>> but maybe interesting to somebody. :-)
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 4:39:02 PM UTC-5 f.brunsb...@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Hi Mario, we just had the pleasure, but others are welcome to read my 
 opinion as well.

 Not a bad idea as far as it goes. Better than the original alignment of 
 the empty.html.
 But I would like to see another variant "All centered". Of course, both 
 side by side but shown together in the center. 
 [image: Eg_centered.png]

 PMario schrieb am Dienstag, 15. Juni 2021 um 21:28:21 UTC+2:

>
> Hi folks, 
> According to the feedback from empty.html should start with 
> "fluid-fixed" layout 
>  
> I did create a new setting in the ControlPanel : Appearance : Theeme 
> Tweaks
>
>  - Centered story, fixed sidebar
>
> If the option is set, the metrics elements, that can't be used are 
> "grayd out". 
>
> The PR is at: https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/5800
>
> [image: centered-fixed-01.gif]
>
> Feedback is welcome.
> -mario
>
>

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[Brian Radspinner]

I've currently got a 3-column layout going: center is the normal view mode; 
edit mode has the preview to the left and editor in the center; sidebar the 
right column where I often display full tiddlers side-by-side with the 
story river.[image: 3-column_layout.png]
On Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 5:00:01 PM UTC-7 springer wrote:

> Soren and all,
>
> The idea of asymmetrical edit/preview panes is appealing!
>
> In some cases, the edit window should be relatively wide (where markup 
> source is longer than rendered result), but in other cases, the preview 
> actually requires much *more* space than the edit box (because of 
> transclusions, dynamic tables, etc.). 
>
> I wonder how hard it would be to make the column gutter moveable, and/or 
> to get the preview to recognize (with some quick-and-dirty approximation) 
> what kind of ratio might be suitable.
>
> -Springer
>
> On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 10:44:00 PM UTC-4 Soren Bjornstad wrote:
>
>> While we're discussing story river layouts, I've been playing with the 
>> following odd-looking but surprisingly functional layout for a couple of 
>> days, in an attempt to make optimal use of the 24" monitors where I do most 
>> of my editing:
>>
>> [image: widening.png]
>>
>> As you can see, the story river is centered, but tiddlers get wider when 
>> you go into edit mode, so there's additional space for a side-by-side 
>> preview when editing but lines don't get too long to comfortably read when 
>> viewing. I also changed the division between the editor and the preview to 
>> 70/30 instead of 50/50, which usually gets the paragraphs on the left and 
>> right to almost exactly line up, rather than the wikitext rapidly getting 
>> longer than the preview (a smaller difference like 60/40 might be a better 
>> compromise if you edit with a lot of images or transclusions).
>>
>> CSS on top of the default theme and fluid-fixed layout:
>>
>> div.tc-tiddler-frame { max-width: 60em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: 
>> auto; }
>> div.tc-tiddler-edit-frame { max-width: 90em; margin-left: auto; 
>> margin-right: auto; }
>> div.tc-tiddler-body { max-width: 50em; margin: auto; }
>> .tc-tiddler-frame .tc-tiddler-preview .tc-edit-texteditor { width: 69%; }
>> div.tc-tiddler-preview-preview { width: 29%; }
>>
>> Still in alpha stages, and probably much too odd to implement in core, 
>> but maybe interesting to somebody. :-)
>>
>> On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 4:39:02 PM UTC-5 f.brunsb...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Mario, we just had the pleasure, but others are welcome to read my 
>>> opinion as well.
>>>
>>> Not a bad idea as far as it goes. Better than the original alignment of 
>>> the empty.html.
>>> But I would like to see another variant "All centered". Of course, both 
>>> side by side but shown together in the center. 
>>> [image: Eg_centered.png]
>>>
>>> PMario schrieb am Dienstag, 15. Juni 2021 um 21:28:21 UTC+2:
>>>

 Hi folks, 
 According to the feedback from empty.html should start with 
 "fluid-fixed" layout 
  
 I did create a new setting in the ControlPanel : Appearance : Theeme Tweaks

  - Centered story, fixed sidebar

 If the option is set, the metrics elements, that can't be used are 
 "grayd out". 

 The PR is at: https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/5800

 [image: centered-fixed-01.gif]

 Feedback is welcome.
 -mario



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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[springer]

Soren and all,

The idea of asymmetrical edit/preview panes is appealing!

In some cases, the edit window should be relatively wide (where markup 
source is longer than rendered result), but in other cases, the preview 
actually requires much *more* space than the edit box (because of 
transclusions, dynamic tables, etc.). 

I wonder how hard it would be to make the column gutter moveable, and/or to 
get the preview to recognize (with some quick-and-dirty approximation) what 
kind of ratio might be suitable.

-Springer

On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 10:44:00 PM UTC-4 Soren Bjornstad wrote:

> While we're discussing story river layouts, I've been playing with the 
> following odd-looking but surprisingly functional layout for a couple of 
> days, in an attempt to make optimal use of the 24" monitors where I do most 
> of my editing:
>
> [image: widening.png]
>
> As you can see, the story river is centered, but tiddlers get wider when 
> you go into edit mode, so there's additional space for a side-by-side 
> preview when editing but lines don't get too long to comfortably read when 
> viewing. I also changed the division between the editor and the preview to 
> 70/30 instead of 50/50, which usually gets the paragraphs on the left and 
> right to almost exactly line up, rather than the wikitext rapidly getting 
> longer than the preview (a smaller difference like 60/40 might be a better 
> compromise if you edit with a lot of images or transclusions).
>
> CSS on top of the default theme and fluid-fixed layout:
>
> div.tc-tiddler-frame { max-width: 60em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: 
> auto; }
> div.tc-tiddler-edit-frame { max-width: 90em; margin-left: auto; 
> margin-right: auto; }
> div.tc-tiddler-body { max-width: 50em; margin: auto; }
> .tc-tiddler-frame .tc-tiddler-preview .tc-edit-texteditor { width: 69%; }
> div.tc-tiddler-preview-preview { width: 29%; }
>
> Still in alpha stages, and probably much too odd to implement in core, but 
> maybe interesting to somebody. :-)
>
> On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 4:39:02 PM UTC-5 f.brunsb...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Hi Mario, we just had the pleasure, but others are welcome to read my 
>> opinion as well.
>>
>> Not a bad idea as far as it goes. Better than the original alignment of 
>> the empty.html.
>> But I would like to see another variant "All centered". Of course, both 
>> side by side but shown together in the center. 
>> [image: Eg_centered.png]
>>
>> PMario schrieb am Dienstag, 15. Juni 2021 um 21:28:21 UTC+2:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi folks, 
>>> According to the feedback from empty.html should start with 
>>> "fluid-fixed" layout 
>>>  I 
>>> did create a new setting in the ControlPanel : Appearance : Theeme Tweaks
>>>
>>>  - Centered story, fixed sidebar
>>>
>>> If the option is set, the metrics elements, that can't be used are 
>>> "grayd out". 
>>>
>>> The PR is at: https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/5800
>>>
>>> [image: centered-fixed-01.gif]
>>>
>>> Feedback is welcome.
>>> -mario
>>>
>>>

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[David Gifford]

Well...that's interesting...I had display scale at 150%, so I switched it 
to the recommended 125% ...now I see what you mean...

Well, okay then, I take it all back...Now I need to rethink my sidebar 
strategies...

On Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 6:09:52 PM UTC-5 PMario wrote:

> On Friday, June 18, 2021 at 12:17:31 AM UTC+2 David Gifford wrote:
>
> You keep repeating 'just change it in the control panel', but it wouldn't 
>> be fair that I and everyone who uses more typical screen sizes like mine, 
>> and tools like Muuri and Stroll, would have to go through a 4 or 5 step 
>> process after updating every file we want to update to the next version of 
>> TW, and any new empty we download, because of your subjective preference 
>> that your centralized should be the default theme, and because you have a 
>> monster-sized screen and-or have the resolution so high that the text is 
>> really small. 
>>
>
> That's exactly the point. A screenshot of tiddlywiki.com/empty.html looks 
> like this with a resolution of 1920 x 1080
> If it looks different in your browser, than you have set a zoom level set 
> somewhere. 
>
> [image: empty-fullscreen.gif]
>
> We did have several requests here in the group and at GitHub that did 
> complain about empty.html using too less screen width. .. That's the reason 
> why I did make a proposal. 
>
> In the screenshot above you can see, that empty only uses about 50% of the 
> screen width, which imo is a problem.
>  
>
>> Like I wrote before, yes, by all means, make changes to the centralized 
>> theme, just don't make it default. That way if you want it, great. Since 
>> you say the process is so easy, then you can do that.
>>
>
> From my point of view everyone who starts with empty.html has to go 
> through 4-5 steps to adjust the layout, that it is usable. 
> If your resolution is 1920 x 1080 as the screenshot above and your zoom 
> level is 100% I'm pretty sure you have to make those steps too. 
>
> -mario
>

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[PMario]

On Friday, June 18, 2021 at 12:17:31 AM UTC+2 David Gifford wrote:

My display is at the recommended 1920 x 1080. That is a typical laptop 
> setting. 
>

That's strange. Your screen shot shows much less left and right margin than 
my initial GIF and it has 1920 x 634 .. So the 2 screenshots should have 
similar margins but they don't

In your screenshot.jpg image the story river uses 1222px .. That's not the 
900px which is in the settings. ... So is there a default browser zoom eg: 
130% or OS zoom ?

-mario

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[David Gifford]

Hi PMario

My display is at the recommended 1920 x 1080. That is a typical laptop 
setting. 

You keep repeating 'just change it in the control panel', but it wouldn't 
be fair that I and everyone who uses more typical screen sizes like mine, 
and tools like Muuri and Stroll, would have to go through a 4 or 5 step 
process after updating every file we want to update to the next version of 
TW, and any new empty we download, because of your subjective preference 
that your centralized should be the default theme, and because you have a 
monster-sized screen and-or have the resolution so high that the text is 
really small. 

Like I wrote before, yes, by all means, make changes to the centralized 
theme, just don't make it default. That way if you want it, great. Since 
you say the process is so easy, then you can do that.

On Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 4:52:34 PM UTC-5 PMario wrote:

> On Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 2:47:59 PM UTC+2 David Gifford wrote:
>
>> 1. On my 15" laptop, the sidebar is way too scrunched to be useful.
>>
>
> So you think 800px would be a better default width of the story river. .. 
> You know, that you can change those settings. .. 
>  
>
>> 2. When I reduced my browser window from full to about a centimeter less 
>> wide, it switches to "mobile" layout and the sidebar moves above the story 
>> river. 
>>
>
> You only need to change the Sidebar Breakpoint. ... But if your sidebar is 
> already "scrunched", than this is the right behaviour. .. Which resolution 
> does your laptop have? ... The GIF uses 1920 x 634 ... So it's not full-hd 
> width. 
>  
>
>> 3. So #1 and #2 tell me this is a solution created for developers that 
>> have super wide screens, but not taking into account those of us with 
>> average sized screens.
>>
>
> As I wrote may be 800px as default story-river. ...
>  
>
>> 4. If this were core, this would mean that upon upgrading, I would need 
>> to a) know what to do to fix it, and b) go in and do it. For every file I 
>> upgrade. This is not a "backwards-compatible" solution. It would be better 
>> to leave it as it has always been, with the original two options, and add 
>> this as a third option. But not make this third option default.
>>
>
> This is easy to change in the ControlPanel : Appearance : Theme Tweaks - 
> settings. ... The Storywidth and the Sidebar Breakpoint settings can be 
> adjusted. 
> Since these are the only 2 settings left, I thought it should be easier to 
> experiment with them. 
>
> 5. Your example takes away fixed story, fluid river, which is my default 
>> option. Are you proposing eliminating that option?
>>
>
> This is the Centralised theme. .. There is no problem to switch back to 
> Snowwhite as shown in the GIF. ... At the moment it isn't possible to have 
> all 3 options based on the "vanilla" theme, since "Tight" and "Tight and 
> Heavier" theme break the "centered" settings
>  
>
>> 6. I did like someone's suggestion of "All centered". Then have a field 
>> to adjust the width of the margins, and a slider to adjust the %'s of story 
>> vs sidebar. But again, this should not be default, but a third option.
>>
>
> As written above. Just go to ControlPanel : Appearance : Theme Tweaks and 
> change your settings. 
>
> -mario
>

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[PMario]

On Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 2:47:59 PM UTC+2 David Gifford wrote:

> 1. On my 15" laptop, the sidebar is way too scrunched to be useful.
>

So you think 800px would be a better default width of the story river. .. 
You know, that you can change those settings. .. 
 

> 2. When I reduced my browser window from full to about a centimeter less 
> wide, it switches to "mobile" layout and the sidebar moves above the story 
> river. 
>

You only need to change the Sidebar Breakpoint. ... But if your sidebar is 
already "scrunched", than this is the right behaviour. .. Which resolution 
does your laptop have? ... The GIF uses 1920 x 634 ... So it's not full-hd 
width. 
 

> 3. So #1 and #2 tell me this is a solution created for developers that 
> have super wide screens, but not taking into account those of us with 
> average sized screens.
>

As I wrote may be 800px as default story-river. ...
 

> 4. If this were core, this would mean that upon upgrading, I would need to 
> a) know what to do to fix it, and b) go in and do it. For every file I 
> upgrade. This is not a "backwards-compatible" solution. It would be better 
> to leave it as it has always been, with the original two options, and add 
> this as a third option. But not make this third option default.
>

This is easy to change in the ControlPanel : Appearance : Theme Tweaks - 
settings. ... The Storywidth and the Sidebar Breakpoint settings can be 
adjusted. 
Since these are the only 2 settings left, I thought it should be easier to 
experiment with them. 

5. Your example takes away fixed story, fluid river, which is my default 
> option. Are you proposing eliminating that option?
>

This is the Centralised theme. .. There is no problem to switch back to 
Snowwhite as shown in the GIF. ... At the moment it isn't possible to have 
all 3 options based on the "vanilla" theme, since "Tight" and "Tight and 
Heavier" theme break the "centered" settings
 

> 6. I did like someone's suggestion of "All centered". Then have a field to 
> adjust the width of the margins, and a slider to adjust the %'s of story vs 
> sidebar. But again, this should not be default, but a third option.
>

As written above. Just go to ControlPanel : Appearance : Theme Tweaks and 
change your settings. 

-mario

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[Frank Bruns-Ballhausen]

Hallo,

I am of the opinion that in the case of centring, the width of the story 
must always be a percentage (e.g. 60%). 
The sidebar must have a minimum width. For example 300px. We have two 
problems with this. Firstly, the breakpoint for the sidebar no longer 
works. 
Consequently, falling below the page width must be used for this 
breakpoint. 

The calculation for the attributes left of the class .tc-sidebar-scrollable 
and .tc-story-river should be reviewed or calculated anew. 
The story must not be in the middle because otherwise the sidebar might 
fall out of the window on the righthand side.

As far as the implementation is concerned, I don't yet know exactly where 
to change it because I don't yet know how all the elements are connected 
and which values have to be changed at which point.
I tested these values using Mario's example 
, 
directly in the browser.


By, Frank

David Gifford schrieb am Donnerstag, 17. Juni 2021 um 14:55:08 UTC+2:

> For reference, I am attaching images of what full screen and almost full 
> screen look like on my average-sized laptop, 15" screen.
>
>
>
> On Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 7:47:59 AM UTC-5 David Gifford wrote:
>
>> Feedback on this idea and the example link: 
>>
>> 1. On my 15" laptop, the sidebar is way too scrunched to be useful.
>> 2. When I reduced my browser window from full to about a centimeter less 
>> wide, it switches to "mobile" layout and the sidebar moves above the story 
>> river. 
>> 3. So #1 and #2 tell me this is a solution created for developers that 
>> have super wide screens, but not taking into account those of us with 
>> average sized screens.
>> 4. If this were core, this would mean that upon upgrading, I would need 
>> to a) know what to do to fix it, and b) go in and do it. For every file I 
>> upgrade. This is not a "backwards-compatible" solution. It would be better 
>> to leave it as it has always been, with the original two options, and add 
>> this as a third option. But not make this third option default.
>> 5. Your example takes away fixed story, fluid river, which is my default 
>> option. Are you proposing eliminating that option?
>> 6. I did like someone's suggestion of "All centered". Then have a field 
>> to adjust the width of the margins, and a slider to adjust the %'s of story 
>> vs sidebar. But again, this should not be default, but a third option.
>>
>> On Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 6:48:31 AM UTC-5 PMario wrote:
>>
>>> I folks, 
>>> I did just upload a "test version" 
>>> https://pmario.github.io/kitchensink/5800-centered-fluid-layout.html 
>>> where you can play with. 
>>>
>>> BUT
>>>
>>> It is a theme now. I did use the existing *Centralised *theme and 
>>> pimped it a bit. See the animated gif. 
>>>
>>> [image: centered-fixed-02.gif]
>>>
>>> *What's new*
>>>
>>>- Every "Theme Tweaks" setting has a "Back to default" button now, 
>>>which should make it easy to undo experiments. 
>>>- The Centralised theme has less settings, which should make it 
>>>easier. 
>>>- Unused settings have been "grayed out" which should make 
>>>experimenting easier.
>>>- The default value for Centralised "story width" is 900px
>>>- The "width breakpoint" where it switches to "mobile mode" has been 
>>>set to 1260
>>>- Snowwhite and Vanilla also got the "gray out" functionality. 
>>>- There is a minimum width now. So if you set storywidth to a very 
>>>small value, you will still be able to see something
>>>   - min is 500px
>>>
>>> I needed to convert the settings into a theme, because the "Tight" and 
>>> "Tight and Heavier" theme cause problems, since they hardcoded margins and 
>>> paddings, which clashed with the centred setting. 
>>>
>>> The PR is 
>>>
>>> have fun!
>>> mario
>>>
>>>

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[David Gifford]

Feedback on this idea and the example link: 

1. On my 15" laptop, the sidebar is way too scrunched to be useful.
2. When I reduced my browser window from full to about a centimeter less 
wide, it switches to "mobile" layout and the sidebar moves above the story 
river. 
3. So #1 and #2 tell me this is a solution created for developers that have 
super wide screens, but not taking into account those of us with average 
sized screens.
4. If this were core, this would mean that upon upgrading, I would need to 
a) know what to do to fix it, and b) go in and do it. For every file I 
upgrade. This is not a "backwards-compatible" solution. It would be better 
to leave it as it has always been, with the original two options, and add 
this as a third option. But not make this third option default.
5. Your example takes away fixed story, fluid river, which is my default 
option. Are you proposing eliminating that option?
6. I did like someone's suggestion of "All centered". Then have a field to 
adjust the width of the margins, and a slider to adjust the %'s of story vs 
sidebar. But again, this should not be default, but a third option.

On Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 6:48:31 AM UTC-5 PMario wrote:

> I folks, 
> I did just upload a "test version" 
> https://pmario.github.io/kitchensink/5800-centered-fluid-layout.html 
> where you can play with. 
>
> BUT
>
> It is a theme now. I did use the existing *Centralised *theme and pimped 
> it a bit. See the animated gif. 
>
> [image: centered-fixed-02.gif]
>
> *What's new*
>
>- Every "Theme Tweaks" setting has a "Back to default" button now, 
>which should make it easy to undo experiments. 
>- The Centralised theme has less settings, which should make it 
>easier. 
>- Unused settings have been "grayed out" which should make 
>experimenting easier.
>- The default value for Centralised "story width" is 900px
>- The "width breakpoint" where it switches to "mobile mode" has been 
>set to 1260
>- Snowwhite and Vanilla also got the "gray out" functionality. 
>- There is a minimum width now. So if you set storywidth to a very 
>small value, you will still be able to see something
>   - min is 500px
>
> I needed to convert the settings into a theme, because the "Tight" and 
> "Tight and Heavier" theme cause problems, since they hardcoded margins and 
> paddings, which clashed with the centred setting. 
>
> The PR is 
>
> have fun!
> mario
>
>

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[PMario]

Hi Brian,

That's exactly the behaviour I was talking about in an earlier post 
 here 
in the thread. ... But stuff like this has to be considered from the very 
beginning. 

At the moment we use wikitext transclusions to "simulate" the new CSS 
features. ... 

On Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 2:55:08 AM UTC+2 Brian Radspinner wrote:

> @Tones, I don't know if you can make a tool out of it but you can use CSS 
> variables to get a start with one element's width effecting another's...
>
> *body.tc-body* {
>--sidebarWidth: 33.33%;
> } 
>

This doesn't work for us in TW. Since we want the 33.33% to be dynamically 
assigned from a value a user can change in the UI and not in a CSS ... 

Changing a CSS isn't considered to be a "simple tool"  ... Changing 
settings from the UI "is". .. So we have to combine new CSS functions with 
the power of our existing wikitext transclusions. 

just some thoughts
mario

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[TW Tones]

Brian,

That would be useful but I am not sure if we can use var() as its a 
function. Changing  $:/themes/tiddlywiki/vanilla/metrics/sidebarwidth is 
sufficient.

Regards
Tones

On Thursday, 17 June 2021 at 10:55:08 UTC+10 Brian Radspinner wrote:

> @Tones, I don't know if you can make a tool out of it but you can use CSS 
> variables to get a start with one element's width effecting another's...
>
> *body.tc-body* {
>--sidebarWidth: 33.33%;
> } 
>
> *.tc-sidebar-scrollable* {
>width: var(--sidebarWidth);
> } 
>
> *.tc-story-river* {
>width: calc(100% - var(--sidebarWidth) - 10px);
> } 
>
>
> Adjusting the *--sidebarWidth* variable will cause both the sidebar and 
> story river widths to change.
> On Wednesday, June 16, 2021 at 5:01:15 PM UTC-7 TW Tones wrote:
>
>> Some thoughts;
>>
>> In a related need I created a sidebar width tool - attached. If you look 
>> at how it works I have to concatenate the N with px wide. This value 
>> permits one number to change the relationship using fluid story and fixed 
>> sidebar. I would like to see the number and units stored separately to 
>> allow such manipulation. There should be css values that the user can set 
>> and save including in a layout, to manipulate the whole layout. This would 
>> include locations for a left sidebar, or settings centred story etc ...
>>
>> As we present custom layouts we should be incorporating hidden elements 
>> that can be made active by the wiki designer.
>>
>> I am a strong believer that the layout should be a layer which can be 
>> replaced. Kind of making tiddlywiki and engine layer, a layout layer and a 
>> customised UI elements layer.
>>
>> Regards
>> Tones
>>
>> Regards
>> Tones
>>
>> On Thursday, 17 June 2021 at 05:56:42 UTC+10 f.brunsb...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Hello everybody,
>>>
>>> I think a "simple tool" like TiddlyTweeter wants is already there. It is 
>>> the basic settings. The community shows that for people who play a bit with 
>>> it (and know CSS), many different designs are possible even without such a 
>>> tool.
>>> You can still wish for it, of course :-)
>>>
>>> But perhaps a different presentation of the setting options would be 
>>> useful. For example, instead of the typical table (property on the left, 
>>> input field on the right), a simplified representation of the boxes and 
>>> margins, as used in TiddlyWikki, might be useful. This might also save 
>>> translation texts, because it would then be largely self-explanatory.
>>>
>>> ... and because it is used so often here...  Just thoughts ;-)
>>>
>>> » FBB
>>> TiddlyTweeter schrieb am Mittwoch, 16. Juni 2021 um 18:00:36 UTC+2:
>>>
 PMario wrote ...

> ... "simple tool" ... I think you meant "simple to use tool" ... The 
> backend side of this tool imo is complex and will need a lot of thought. 
> As 
> I wrote in my last post.
>

 HaHa! I love your semantic appreciation of English!

 Right! I did not really mean making it is easy. I am not a programmer 
 by either craft or orientation. 
 WHAT am I saying? Merely that interactive tools for CSS WILL WORK in TW 
 since it is a full-on dynamic system.
 AND I do suspect that we might be able to make a much better job of 
 providing simple "CSS use tools" than is currently the case.

 Just thoughts
 TT

>>>

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[Brian Radspinner]

@Tones, I don't know if you can make a tool out of it but you can use CSS 
variables to get a start with one element's width effecting another's...

*body.tc-body* {
   --sidebarWidth: 33.33%;
} 

*.tc-sidebar-scrollable* {
   width: var(--sidebarWidth);
} 

*.tc-story-river* {
   width: calc(100% - var(--sidebarWidth) - 10px);
} 


Adjusting the *--sidebarWidth* variable will cause both the sidebar and 
story river widths to change.
On Wednesday, June 16, 2021 at 5:01:15 PM UTC-7 TW Tones wrote:

> Some thoughts;
>
> In a related need I created a sidebar width tool - attached. If you look 
> at how it works I have to concatenate the N with px wide. This value 
> permits one number to change the relationship using fluid story and fixed 
> sidebar. I would like to see the number and units stored separately to 
> allow such manipulation. There should be css values that the user can set 
> and save including in a layout, to manipulate the whole layout. This would 
> include locations for a left sidebar, or settings centred story etc ...
>
> As we present custom layouts we should be incorporating hidden elements 
> that can be made active by the wiki designer.
>
> I am a strong believer that the layout should be a layer which can be 
> replaced. Kind of making tiddlywiki and engine layer, a layout layer and a 
> customised UI elements layer.
>
> Regards
> Tones
>
> Regards
> Tones
>
> On Thursday, 17 June 2021 at 05:56:42 UTC+10 f.brunsb...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Hello everybody,
>>
>> I think a "simple tool" like TiddlyTweeter wants is already there. It is 
>> the basic settings. The community shows that for people who play a bit with 
>> it (and know CSS), many different designs are possible even without such a 
>> tool.
>> You can still wish for it, of course :-)
>>
>> But perhaps a different presentation of the setting options would be 
>> useful. For example, instead of the typical table (property on the left, 
>> input field on the right), a simplified representation of the boxes and 
>> margins, as used in TiddlyWikki, might be useful. This might also save 
>> translation texts, because it would then be largely self-explanatory.
>>
>> ... and because it is used so often here...  Just thoughts ;-)
>>
>> » FBB
>> TiddlyTweeter schrieb am Mittwoch, 16. Juni 2021 um 18:00:36 UTC+2:
>>
>>> PMario wrote ...
>>>
 ... "simple tool" ... I think you meant "simple to use tool" ... The 
 backend side of this tool imo is complex and will need a lot of thought. 
 As 
 I wrote in my last post.

>>>
>>> HaHa! I love your semantic appreciation of English!
>>>
>>> Right! I did not really mean making it is easy. I am not a programmer by 
>>> either craft or orientation. 
>>> WHAT am I saying? Merely that interactive tools for CSS WILL WORK in TW 
>>> since it is a full-on dynamic system.
>>> AND I do suspect that we might be able to make a much better job of 
>>> providing simple "CSS use tools" than is currently the case.
>>>
>>> Just thoughts
>>> TT
>>>
>>

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[TW Tones]

Some thoughts;

In a related need I created a sidebar width tool - attached. If you look at 
how it works I have to concatenate the N with px wide. This value permits 
one number to change the relationship using fluid story and fixed sidebar. 
I would like to see the number and units stored separately to allow such 
manipulation. There should be css values that the user can set and save 
including in a layout, to manipulate the whole layout. This would include 
locations for a left sidebar, or settings centred story etc ...

As we present custom layouts we should be incorporating hidden elements 
that can be made active by the wiki designer.

I am a strong believer that the layout should be a layer which can be 
replaced. Kind of making tiddlywiki and engine layer, a layout layer and a 
customised UI elements layer.

Regards
Tones

Regards
Tones

On Thursday, 17 June 2021 at 05:56:42 UTC+10 f.brunsb...@gmail.com wrote:

> Hello everybody,
>
> I think a "simple tool" like TiddlyTweeter wants is already there. It is 
> the basic settings. The community shows that for people who play a bit with 
> it (and know CSS), many different designs are possible even without such a 
> tool.
> You can still wish for it, of course :-)
>
> But perhaps a different presentation of the setting options would be 
> useful. For example, instead of the typical table (property on the left, 
> input field on the right), a simplified representation of the boxes and 
> margins, as used in TiddlyWikki, might be useful. This might also save 
> translation texts, because it would then be largely self-explanatory.
>
> ... and because it is used so often here...  Just thoughts ;-)
>
> » FBB
> TiddlyTweeter schrieb am Mittwoch, 16. Juni 2021 um 18:00:36 UTC+2:
>
>> PMario wrote ...
>>
>>> ... "simple tool" ... I think you meant "simple to use tool" ... The 
>>> backend side of this tool imo is complex and will need a lot of thought. As 
>>> I wrote in my last post.
>>>
>>
>> HaHa! I love your semantic appreciation of English!
>>
>> Right! I did not really mean making it is easy. I am not a programmer by 
>> either craft or orientation. 
>> WHAT am I saying? Merely that interactive tools for CSS WILL WORK in TW 
>> since it is a full-on dynamic system.
>> AND I do suspect that we might be able to make a much better job of 
>> providing simple "CSS use tools" than is currently the case.
>>
>> Just thoughts
>> TT
>>
>

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sideBar-width.json
Description: application/json

[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[Frank Bruns-Ballhausen]

Hello everybody,

I think a "simple tool" like TiddlyTweeter wants is already there. It is 
the basic settings. The community shows that for people who play a bit with 
it (and know CSS), many different designs are possible even without such a 
tool.
You can still wish for it, of course :-)

But perhaps a different presentation of the setting options would be 
useful. For example, instead of the typical table (property on the left, 
input field on the right), a simplified representation of the boxes and 
margins, as used in TiddlyWikki, might be useful. This might also save 
translation texts, because it would then be largely self-explanatory.

... and because it is used so often here...  Just thoughts ;-)

» FBB
TiddlyTweeter schrieb am Mittwoch, 16. Juni 2021 um 18:00:36 UTC+2:

> PMario wrote ...
>
>> ... "simple tool" ... I think you meant "simple to use tool" ... The 
>> backend side of this tool imo is complex and will need a lot of thought. As 
>> I wrote in my last post.
>>
>
> HaHa! I love your semantic appreciation of English!
>
> Right! I did not really mean making it is easy. I am not a programmer by 
> either craft or orientation. 
> WHAT am I saying? Merely that interactive tools for CSS WILL WORK in TW 
> since it is a full-on dynamic system.
> AND I do suspect that we might be able to make a much better job of 
> providing simple "CSS use tools" than is currently the case.
>
> Just thoughts
> TT
>

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[TiddlyTweeter]

PMario wrote ...

> ... "simple tool" ... I think you meant "simple to use tool" ... The 
> backend side of this tool imo is complex and will need a lot of thought. As 
> I wrote in my last post.
>

HaHa! I love your semantic appreciation of English!

Right! I did not really mean making it is easy. I am not a programmer by 
either craft or orientation. 
WHAT am I saying? Merely that interactive tools for CSS WILL WORK in TW 
since it is a full-on dynamic system.
AND I do suspect that we might be able to make a much better job of 
providing simple "CSS use tools" than is currently the case.

Just thoughts
TT

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[TiddlyTweeter]

PMario wrote...

> ... vanilla CSS atm is close to 2500 lines of code.
>

Right! It is a major achievement! It is pretty astonishing!

The end-use issues partly arise from* "HOW do you know?"  *what directives 
in that vast stylesheet(s) system are active where and when?
The developer tools will *retro*-supply answers, but the sheer complexity 
of the cascade can, sometimes, make it hard to fathom out EXACTLY what to 
do to change the UI in a consistent fashion.

Just a comment
TT

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[PMario]

On Wednesday, June 16, 2021 at 5:04:07 PM UTC+2 TiddlyTweeter wrote:

PMario's "fits my personal needs" is a kinda understatement :-) ... I agree 
> with him that ...
> I do think it is true that DIFFERENT APPS (end-usages) often need 
> DIFFERENT FACES (end-looks / UI).
>

Yea, .. Most of the time I start to build new things, that are primarily 
useful for me. ... The second step is collecting feedback. Maybe someone 
else also likes it. ... 

In this special case. Franks suggestion is ascetically more pleasing, than 
my initial configuration. 

 - Franks suggestion imo makes more sense as an initial experience for new 
users.
 - My configuration still makes _some_ sense in a development environment.  
 

> In a sense, at the moment, I think we making a saga where actually a 
> simple tool might solve anyone's problem pretty easily???
>

"simple tool" ... I think you meant "simple to use tool" ... The backend 
side of this tool imo is complex and will need a lot of thought. As I wrote 
in my last post.

-mario

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[PMario]

On Wednesday, June 16, 2021 at 4:48:48 PM UTC+2 TiddlyTweeter wrote:

It really strikes me that one of the TW gurus who understand it's CSS/HTML 
> and the cascade that binds the two ...
> ... could probably give us a better TOOL to PLAY with layout dynamically???
>

This basically means to create the PageTemplate and the /vanilla CSS from 
scratch with a completely new concept in mind. ... 

The existing layout and the CSS have been started prior to 2012 ... more 
than 10 years ago. .. 

So having a closer look to eg: the CSS calc()  
function. FireFox started to implement it March 2011 and Chrome started 
March 2012. 
Mobile browsers implemented the feature MAY *2021* ... Which basically 
means the feature can *now* be used safely. ...

The same thing is true for flexbox,  and grid 
which are major improvements that _can_ make layout styling more 
consistent. .. 

So now we are at a position to create a new and more dynamic layout. ... 
BUT we pretty much need to start from scratch, since grid and flexbox are 
fundamentally different philosophies. 

vanilla CSS atm is close to 2500 lines of code.

-mario

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao PMario & Frank

*Very interesting thread! *
Real end-looks/end-usage are the stakes.

PMario's "fits my personal needs" is a kinda understatement :-) ... I agree 
with him that ...
I do think it is true that DIFFERENT APPS (end-usages) often need DIFFERENT 
FACES (end-looks / UI).

My own PERSONAL thought on this in TW is we should try collectively to 
develop a methodology/tools so that it is EASIER to create new interfaces.
In a sense, at the moment, I think we making a saga where actually a simple 
tool might solve anyone's problem pretty easily???

Just thoughts
TT

 PMario wrote:

> Hi Frank,
> You are right. That looks nicer as a default. ... The setting I created 
> fits my personal needs ;). .. 
> IMO it should be possible to define your setting that way ...
>

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[PMario]

On Wednesday, June 16, 2021 at 2:24:04 PM UTC+2 Soren Bjornstad wrote:

> Absolute positioning strikes me as likely to confuse TiddlyWiki's layout, 
> but I'm mostly a “guess and check” CSS user so I can't explain why, except 
> that I've tried to do it in the past and it hasn't worked very well. But 
> your situation may be different.


Yea, the initial positioning is done with absolute positioning and margins 
to "push" the DIVs to the right position. ... As TW5 was created, there 
where no possibilities to use CSS calc(). Now every major browser supports 
it  with about 98% browser coverage. 

This makes things easier. 
 

> Also, wouldn't that be applying the same absolute positioning to *every* 
> tiddler 
> in the story river,
>

Centering is done with margin-left and margin-right both set to auto. and a 
max-width to the page container. 
 

> which could include both the details and the entry/chapter?
>

I don't understand this.
 

> You might be able to use data-tags 
>  to apply the 
> special positioning/sizing only to one of the items.
>

data-tags can be used to apply special formats depending an tags. .. That' 
not what we need here. ... We need a very generic way to center the 
story-river.

I'll try to publish a "kitchensink" version soon. So you can play with it. 

-mario

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Soren & all

It really strikes me that one of the TW gurus who understand it's CSS/HTML 
and the cascade that binds the two ...
... could probably give us a better TOOL to PLAY with layout dynamically???

TW is *exceptionally good* at dynamic recursion.
The layout is infinitely tweak-able. 
Some macro/tool that can dynamically make test-tweaking more intuitive I 
think would be good???

Just thoughts
TT

Soren Bjornstad wrote:

> Absolute positioning strikes me as likely to confuse TiddlyWiki's layout, 
> but I'm mostly a “guess and check” CSS user so I can't explain why, except 
> that I've tried to do it in the past and it hasn't worked very well.


 

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[Soren Bjornstad]

Absolute positioning strikes me as likely to confuse TiddlyWiki's layout, 
but I'm mostly a “guess and check” CSS user so I can't explain why, except 
that I've tried to do it in the past and it hasn't worked very well. But 
your situation may be different.

Also, wouldn't that be applying the same absolute positioning to *every* 
tiddler 
in the story river, which could include both the details and the 
entry/chapter? You might be able to use data-tags 
 to apply the 
special positioning/sizing only to one of the items.

On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 11:01:32 PM UTC-5 iamdar...@gmail.com wrote:

> @Soren,
>
> I have been trying to make a two column view for my World Building 
> project. The idea was that someone could be editing a Tiddler (entry) or 
> writing a chapter (again a Tiddler) and then have the world details above 
> in an isolated row that scrolled. Kind of like Stroll but instead of two 
> columns it would have two rows to switch the Tiddlers between. 
>
> However, your CSS gave me an idea and my question is, as I sit here 
> shaking and jittering like I have wy too much sugar, can you tell 
> me if my changes to the edit-frame css breaks anything in your mind? 
>
> I think I figured out how I can, and now want to, have the edit and 
> viewing breakdown. Again, I just want to make sure I'm not butchering 
> something else without realizing it. Thank you so much if you can and for 
> your CSS/idea!
>
> div.tc-tiddler-frame { max-width: 60em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: 
> auto; } 
> div.tc-tiddler-edit-frame { max-width: 90em; margin-left: auto; 
> margin-right: auto; max-height: 500px; overflow:auto; position: fixed; 
> bottom: 0; z-index:2; } 
> div.tc-tiddler-body { max-width: 50em; margin: auto; }  
> .tc-tiddler-frame .tc-tiddler-preview .tc-edit-texteditor { width: 69%; } 
> div.tc-tiddler-preview-preview { width: 29%; }
>
> On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 10:44:00 PM UTC-4 Soren Bjornstad wrote:
>
>> While we're discussing story river layouts, I've been playing with the 
>> following odd-looking but surprisingly functional layout for a couple of 
>> days, in an attempt to make optimal use of the 24" monitors where I do most 
>> of my editing:
>>
>> [image: widening.png]
>>
>> As you can see, the story river is centered, but tiddlers get wider when 
>> you go into edit mode, so there's additional space for a side-by-side 
>> preview when editing but lines don't get too long to comfortably read when 
>> viewing. I also changed the division between the editor and the preview to 
>> 70/30 instead of 50/50, which usually gets the paragraphs on the left and 
>> right to almost exactly line up, rather than the wikitext rapidly getting 
>> longer than the preview (a smaller difference like 60/40 might be a better 
>> compromise if you edit with a lot of images or transclusions).
>>
>> CSS on top of the default theme and fluid-fixed layout:
>>
>> div.tc-tiddler-frame { max-width: 60em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: 
>> auto; }
>> div.tc-tiddler-edit-frame { max-width: 90em; margin-left: auto; 
>> margin-right: auto; }
>> div.tc-tiddler-body { max-width: 50em; margin: auto; }
>> .tc-tiddler-frame .tc-tiddler-preview .tc-edit-texteditor { width: 69%; }
>> div.tc-tiddler-preview-preview { width: 29%; }
>>
>> Still in alpha stages, and probably much too odd to implement in core, 
>> but maybe interesting to somebody. :-)
>>
>> On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 4:39:02 PM UTC-5 f.brunsb...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Mario, we just had the pleasure, but others are welcome to read my 
>>> opinion as well.
>>>
>>> Not a bad idea as far as it goes. Better than the original alignment of 
>>> the empty.html.
>>> But I would like to see another variant "All centered". Of course, both 
>>> side by side but shown together in the center. 
>>> [image: Eg_centered.png]
>>>
>>> PMario schrieb am Dienstag, 15. Juni 2021 um 21:28:21 UTC+2:
>>>

 Hi folks, 
 According to the feedback from empty.html should start with 
 "fluid-fixed" layout 
  
 I did create a new setting in the ControlPanel : Appearance : Theeme Tweaks

  - Centered story, fixed sidebar

 If the option is set, the metrics elements, that can't be used are 
 "grayd out". 

 The PR is at: https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/5800

 [image: centered-fixed-01.gif]

 Feedback is welcome.
 -mario



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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[Télumire]

Hello Mario,

In your preview the main story is off-centered when the side menu panel is 
open. Personally I think it would maybe be better if it stayed perfectly 
centered as long as there is space for it, to reduce distraction (the text 
moving around) :)
Otherwise, I love the centered story view, it's much more comfortable for 
reading long tiddlers !
Le mardi 15 juin 2021 à 21:28:21 UTC+2, PMario a écrit :

>
> Hi folks, 
> According to the feedback from empty.html should start with "fluid-fixed" 
> layout 
>  I 
> did create a new setting in the ControlPanel : Appearance : Theeme Tweaks
>
>  - Centered story, fixed sidebar
>
> If the option is set, the metrics elements, that can't be used are "grayd 
> out". 
>
> The PR is at: https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/5800
>
> [image: centered-fixed-01.gif]
>
> Feedback is welcome.
> -mario
>
>

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[PMario]

I think I found something

On Wednesday, June 16, 2021 at 10:55:47 AM UTC+2 PMario wrote:

> Hi Frank,
>
> You are right. That looks nicer as a default. ... The setting I created 
> fits my personal needs ;). .. 
>
> IMO it should be possible to define your setting that way: 
>
>  - Body width ... in pixel, em or % of the max-width ... which contains 
> the story-river + the sidebar
>  - Body / Sidebar ... ratio where only 1 width will be set. The other will 
> be calculated. eg: 60% / (40% is calculated)
>
> BUT .. It seems this will completely clash with the existing PageTemplate 
> + CSS
> Whatever I do - it always looks like this.
>
> [image: Clipboard01.gif]
>
> just some thoughts. 
> -mario
>
>

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[PMario]

Hi Frank,

You are right. That looks nicer as a default. ... The setting I created 
fits my personal needs ;). .. 

IMO it should be possible to define your setting that way: 

 - Body width ... in pixel, em or % of the max-width ... which contains the 
story-river + the sidebar
 - Body / Sidebar ... ratio where only 1 width will be set. The other will 
be calculated. eg: 60% / (40% is calculated)

BUT .. It seems this will completely clash with the existing PageTemplate + 
CSS
Whatever I do - it always looks like this.

[image: Clipboard01.gif]

just some thoughts. 
-mario

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[PMario]

Hi Soren,

That's an interesting approach and I think it looks good. ... IMO it would 
be a very easy to create a theme on top of my new "Centered story, fixed 
sidebar" option. 

It would need to add a new setting for "Editor width" in addition to the 
existing "Tiddler width" and there would be a new setting for the "Preview 
width".

I did experiment with a "slider-like" functionality in the middle of the 
edit-area and the preview-area but it looked ugly and didn't work. The 
wikitext complexity got out of control. ...

-mario

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[Darth Mole]

*two *row* view for my World Building project. 

On Wednesday, June 16, 2021 at 12:01:32 AM UTC-4 Darth Mole wrote:

> @Soren,
>
> I have been trying to make a two column view for my World Building 
> project. The idea was that someone could be editing a Tiddler (entry) or 
> writing a chapter (again a Tiddler) and then have the world details above 
> in an isolated row that scrolled. Kind of like Stroll but instead of two 
> columns it would have two rows to switch the Tiddlers between. 
>
> However, your CSS gave me an idea and my question is, as I sit here 
> shaking and jittering like I have wy too much sugar, can you tell 
> me if my changes to the edit-frame css breaks anything in your mind? 
>
> I think I figured out how I can, and now want to, have the edit and 
> viewing breakdown. Again, I just want to make sure I'm not butchering 
> something else without realizing it. Thank you so much if you can and for 
> your CSS/idea!
>
> div.tc-tiddler-frame { max-width: 60em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: 
> auto; } 
> div.tc-tiddler-edit-frame { max-width: 90em; margin-left: auto; 
> margin-right: auto; max-height: 500px; overflow:auto; position: fixed; 
> bottom: 0; z-index:2; } 
> div.tc-tiddler-body { max-width: 50em; margin: auto; }  
> .tc-tiddler-frame .tc-tiddler-preview .tc-edit-texteditor { width: 69%; } 
> div.tc-tiddler-preview-preview { width: 29%; }
>
> On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 10:44:00 PM UTC-4 Soren Bjornstad wrote:
>
>> While we're discussing story river layouts, I've been playing with the 
>> following odd-looking but surprisingly functional layout for a couple of 
>> days, in an attempt to make optimal use of the 24" monitors where I do most 
>> of my editing:
>>
>> [image: widening.png]
>>
>> As you can see, the story river is centered, but tiddlers get wider when 
>> you go into edit mode, so there's additional space for a side-by-side 
>> preview when editing but lines don't get too long to comfortably read when 
>> viewing. I also changed the division between the editor and the preview to 
>> 70/30 instead of 50/50, which usually gets the paragraphs on the left and 
>> right to almost exactly line up, rather than the wikitext rapidly getting 
>> longer than the preview (a smaller difference like 60/40 might be a better 
>> compromise if you edit with a lot of images or transclusions).
>>
>> CSS on top of the default theme and fluid-fixed layout:
>>
>> div.tc-tiddler-frame { max-width: 60em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: 
>> auto; }
>> div.tc-tiddler-edit-frame { max-width: 90em; margin-left: auto; 
>> margin-right: auto; }
>> div.tc-tiddler-body { max-width: 50em; margin: auto; }
>> .tc-tiddler-frame .tc-tiddler-preview .tc-edit-texteditor { width: 69%; }
>> div.tc-tiddler-preview-preview { width: 29%; }
>>
>> Still in alpha stages, and probably much too odd to implement in core, 
>> but maybe interesting to somebody. :-)
>>
>> On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 4:39:02 PM UTC-5 f.brunsb...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Mario, we just had the pleasure, but others are welcome to read my 
>>> opinion as well.
>>>
>>> Not a bad idea as far as it goes. Better than the original alignment of 
>>> the empty.html.
>>> But I would like to see another variant "All centered". Of course, both 
>>> side by side but shown together in the center. 
>>> [image: Eg_centered.png]
>>>
>>> PMario schrieb am Dienstag, 15. Juni 2021 um 21:28:21 UTC+2:
>>>

 Hi folks, 
 According to the feedback from empty.html should start with 
 "fluid-fixed" layout 
  
 I did create a new setting in the ControlPanel : Appearance : Theeme Tweaks

  - Centered story, fixed sidebar

 If the option is set, the metrics elements, that can't be used are 
 "grayd out". 

 The PR is at: https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/5800

 [image: centered-fixed-01.gif]

 Feedback is welcome.
 -mario



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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[Darth Mole]

@Soren,

I have been trying to make a two column view for my World Building project. 
The idea was that someone could be editing a Tiddler (entry) or writing a 
chapter (again a Tiddler) and then have the world details above in an 
isolated row that scrolled. Kind of like Stroll but instead of two columns 
it would have two rows to switch the Tiddlers between. 

However, your CSS gave me an idea and my question is, as I sit here shaking 
and jittering like I have wy too much sugar, can you tell me if my 
changes to the edit-frame css breaks anything in your mind? 

I think I figured out how I can, and now want to, have the edit and viewing 
breakdown. Again, I just want to make sure I'm not butchering something 
else without realizing it. Thank you so much if you can and for your 
CSS/idea!

div.tc-tiddler-frame { max-width: 60em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: 
auto; } 
div.tc-tiddler-edit-frame { max-width: 90em; margin-left: auto; 
margin-right: auto; max-height: 500px; overflow:auto; position: fixed; 
bottom: 0; z-index:2; } 
div.tc-tiddler-body { max-width: 50em; margin: auto; }  
.tc-tiddler-frame .tc-tiddler-preview .tc-edit-texteditor { width: 69%; } 
div.tc-tiddler-preview-preview { width: 29%; }

On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 10:44:00 PM UTC-4 Soren Bjornstad wrote:

> While we're discussing story river layouts, I've been playing with the 
> following odd-looking but surprisingly functional layout for a couple of 
> days, in an attempt to make optimal use of the 24" monitors where I do most 
> of my editing:
>
> [image: widening.png]
>
> As you can see, the story river is centered, but tiddlers get wider when 
> you go into edit mode, so there's additional space for a side-by-side 
> preview when editing but lines don't get too long to comfortably read when 
> viewing. I also changed the division between the editor and the preview to 
> 70/30 instead of 50/50, which usually gets the paragraphs on the left and 
> right to almost exactly line up, rather than the wikitext rapidly getting 
> longer than the preview (a smaller difference like 60/40 might be a better 
> compromise if you edit with a lot of images or transclusions).
>
> CSS on top of the default theme and fluid-fixed layout:
>
> div.tc-tiddler-frame { max-width: 60em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: 
> auto; }
> div.tc-tiddler-edit-frame { max-width: 90em; margin-left: auto; 
> margin-right: auto; }
> div.tc-tiddler-body { max-width: 50em; margin: auto; }
> .tc-tiddler-frame .tc-tiddler-preview .tc-edit-texteditor { width: 69%; }
> div.tc-tiddler-preview-preview { width: 29%; }
>
> Still in alpha stages, and probably much too odd to implement in core, but 
> maybe interesting to somebody. :-)
>
> On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 4:39:02 PM UTC-5 f.brunsb...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Hi Mario, we just had the pleasure, but others are welcome to read my 
>> opinion as well.
>>
>> Not a bad idea as far as it goes. Better than the original alignment of 
>> the empty.html.
>> But I would like to see another variant "All centered". Of course, both 
>> side by side but shown together in the center. 
>> [image: Eg_centered.png]
>>
>> PMario schrieb am Dienstag, 15. Juni 2021 um 21:28:21 UTC+2:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi folks, 
>>> According to the feedback from empty.html should start with 
>>> "fluid-fixed" layout 
>>>  I 
>>> did create a new setting in the ControlPanel : Appearance : Theeme Tweaks
>>>
>>>  - Centered story, fixed sidebar
>>>
>>> If the option is set, the metrics elements, that can't be used are 
>>> "grayd out". 
>>>
>>> The PR is at: https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/5800
>>>
>>> [image: centered-fixed-01.gif]
>>>
>>> Feedback is welcome.
>>> -mario
>>>
>>>

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[tw5] Re: empty.html should start with a "Centered story, fixed sidebar" setting.

[Frank Bruns-Ballhausen]

Hi Mario, we just had the pleasure, but others are welcome to read my 
opinion as well.

Not a bad idea as far as it goes. Better than the original alignment of the 
empty.html.
But I would like to see another variant "All centered". Of course, both 
side by side but shown together in the center. 
[image: Eg_centered.png]

PMario schrieb am Dienstag, 15. Juni 2021 um 21:28:21 UTC+2:

>
> Hi folks, 
> According to the feedback from empty.html should start with "fluid-fixed" 
> layout 
>  I 
> did create a new setting in the ControlPanel : Appearance : Theeme Tweaks
>
>  - Centered story, fixed sidebar
>
> If the option is set, the metrics elements, that can't be used are "grayd 
> out". 
>
> The PR is at: https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/5800
>
> [image: centered-fixed-01.gif]
>
> Feedback is welcome.
> -mario
>
>

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