Re: [time-nuts] ULN regulator with more current capability than LT3042?

[Tom Miller]

- Original Message - 
From: "John Ackermann N8UR" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2018 4:13 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] ULN regulator with more current capability than LT3042?


Reviving the conversation about superb voltage regulators, I am looking 
for one to run the analog and PLL bits of a high performance frequency 
synthesizer chip.


The current drain looks to be about 160-180 mA at 1.8 V, which is 
uncomfortably close to the limit for the LT3042 (200 mA).  The 
manufacturer's evaluation board uses a MAX8869, which appears to be 
nowhere in the LT3042's league, but will source 1 A.


Any recommendations for a 1.8 V regulator a little beefier than the 
LT3042, but with similar noise performance?


Thanks!
John
___


Run two in parallel for twice the current and less noise?

Regards 


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Re: [time-nuts] Outdoor GPS Antenna Selection

[Tom Miller]

Good quality RG6 has less loss and the mismatch is small. You see a lot of 
GPS receivers and antennas with F connectors even though they generally are 
50 ohms. 26 dB of gain should work fine for 20 feet of RG6. Probably also 
good for good RG58.






- Original Message - 
From: "Duane Wheaton" 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2018 10:59 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Outdoor GPS Antenna Selection


I'm selecting an outdoors antenna for a Jupiter Pico T Timing GPS 
(TU36-D400-020) but don't clearly understand what "dB" rating of amplified 
antenna to use. From web references, it looks like the degree of 
amplification required is dependent on 1.) The length of run of coax 
lead-in, combined with the characteristic loss of the type of coax used 2.) 
The amount of amplification needed to increase the very weak GPS signal to 
the range the receiver requires it. If I'm running 20 feet of RG-58, would a 
26dB antenna be sufficient?


The datasheet for the receiver family states, "1575.42 MHz at a level 
between –115 dBm and –133 dBm into a 50 Ω impedance." So the receiver needs 
at max a -115 dBm signal. The typical received signal power from a GPS 
satellite is −127.5 dBm. So it looks like I need to amplify the RF signal 
for the GPS receiver requirements + compensate for the high loss of the GHz 
signal traveling through ordinary RG-58 coax. Am I on track, here? 
Recommendations?


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Re: [time-nuts] TruePosition on the Arduino

[Tom Miller]

We do not have the source code. Just two binary versions, one with the 
display and one without.


Regards


- Original Message - 
From: "EB4APL" <eb4...@gmail.com>

To: <time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2017 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TruePosition on the Arduino


Maybe I'm missing something, but Arduino programs are usually
distributed as source code. If this is the case, the I2C address of the
display should be not a problem.  If the problem is due to the display
library used, you can use another library that can be initialized with
the right address.
I'm curious about the real problem.

Regards,
Ignacio, EB4APL


El 26/06/2017 a las 2:29, Tom Miller escribió:
This is an update to discussions off list with Ben and Chris regarding 
using the two line, 16 character display with the Packrats software on the 
Arduino to control the TruePosition GPS board.


First, the ebay seller still has a few boards left and seems to take 
offers of $40 for them.


Second, the display used with the Packrats software must use the I2C 
address of 0x3F to work. The display needs to use the PCF8574AT I2C I/O 
expander chip and not the PCF8574T. The later chip addresses between 0x20 
to 0x27 and will not work with this software.


Third, I picked up some of the "A" chips on ebay and they were marked as A 
chips but addressed wrong. If you are going to change out this expander 
chip, get them from someone like Mouser.


Next step is to find a suitable housing for this assembly.

Thanks all,
Tom


- Original Message - From: "Ben Hall" <kd5...@gmail.com>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
<time-nuts@febo.com>

Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2017 7:46 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] TruePosition on the Arduino



Good evening all,

There is a saying: "a man with one watch knows the time, a man with two 
is never sure."  Clearly, this man wasn't a timenut and didn't have GPS. 
;)


I've been working on the Arduino code for the TruePosition boards that 
quite a few of us have bought from the e-place.


It's my first real foray into both Arduino and the C language. (About a 
million years ago I was reasonably competent with FORTRAN...the 1977 
version...)  It's mostly working - I can receive and display pretty much 
everything that comes out of the unit minus a few parameters.  I can 
display it all on three pages on a 4 line by 20 character I2C display. 
Currently, the pages are selected by grounding out one of two pins, or 
having nothing grounded.  Eventually, I'm going to change this so that it 
changes display pages when a button is pressed.  I don't have lat/long 
display yet, nor can I handle doing a survey, but those are coming.


My code probably would make a real programmer vomit, but hey, it works. 
:)


Back to the man with multiple watches.  I was having a very frustrating 
issue with my TruePosition and Arduino code being one second behind my 
other sources of time.  I went round and round, trying to figure out why 
the TruePosition thru the Arduino was a second slow.  In the end, it 
turns out that it wasn't slow...it was correct...but that my other 
sources of time have errors.


I finally proved this to myself by firing up an old Trimble Lassen LP GPS 
board unit equipped with a 1PPS tick light and serial output...and it was 
clear that it matched the TruePosition after correcting for the fact that 
my TruePosition / Arduino code only updates the display when 1PPS is 
asserted high...but that the Lassen LP displays the serial message before 
it becomes valid at the next 1PPS tick.


I was slightly embarrassed...I should have known that the other sources 
of time all had sources of error beyond my control.  I should have 
trusted the TruePosition as being the purest, least complicated, and the 
path I knew the most about between GPS and my eyeballs.


So for a while...the statement was true.  With my multiple sources of 
time...I really didn't know the time.  But it was also untrue, as when I 
got agreement between two very "pure" sources of time, I knew everything 
else was wrong.  ;)


I'm getting to the point that once I've got the button logic working, 
I'll send out my source to anyone who wants to take a look at it or use 
it.  I will stipulate one condition - you can't make too much fun of how 
poorly programmed it is.  ;)


thanks much and 73,
ben, kd5byb
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Re: [time-nuts] TruePosition on the Arduino

[Tom Miller]

This is an update to discussions off list with Ben and Chris regarding using 
the two line, 16 character display with the Packrats software on the Arduino 
to control the TruePosition GPS board.


First, the ebay seller still has a few boards left and seems to take offers 
of $40 for them.


Second, the display used with the Packrats software must use the I2C address 
of 0x3F to work. The display needs to use the PCF8574AT I2C I/O expander 
chip and not the PCF8574T. The later chip addresses between 0x20 to 0x27 and 
will not work with this software.


Third, I picked up some of the "A" chips on ebay and they were marked as A 
chips but addressed wrong. If you are going to change out this expander 
chip, get them from someone like Mouser.


Next step is to find a suitable housing for this assembly.

Thanks all,
Tom


- Original Message - 
From: "Ben Hall" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2017 7:46 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] TruePosition on the Arduino



Good evening all,

There is a saying: "a man with one watch knows the time, a man with two is 
never sure."  Clearly, this man wasn't a timenut and didn't have GPS.  ;)


I've been working on the Arduino code for the TruePosition boards that 
quite a few of us have bought from the e-place.


It's my first real foray into both Arduino and the C language.  (About a 
million years ago I was reasonably competent with FORTRAN...the 1977 
version...)  It's mostly working - I can receive and display pretty much 
everything that comes out of the unit minus a few parameters.  I can 
display it all on three pages on a 4 line by 20 character I2C display. 
Currently, the pages are selected by grounding out one of two pins, or 
having nothing grounded.  Eventually, I'm going to change this so that it 
changes display pages when a button is pressed.  I don't have lat/long 
display yet, nor can I handle doing a survey, but those are coming.


My code probably would make a real programmer vomit, but hey, it works. 
:)


Back to the man with multiple watches.  I was having a very frustrating 
issue with my TruePosition and Arduino code being one second behind my 
other sources of time.  I went round and round, trying to figure out why 
the TruePosition thru the Arduino was a second slow.  In the end, it turns 
out that it wasn't slow...it was correct...but that my other sources of 
time have errors.


I finally proved this to myself by firing up an old Trimble Lassen LP GPS 
board unit equipped with a 1PPS tick light and serial output...and it was 
clear that it matched the TruePosition after correcting for the fact that 
my TruePosition / Arduino code only updates the display when 1PPS is 
asserted high...but that the Lassen LP displays the serial message before 
it becomes valid at the next 1PPS tick.


I was slightly embarrassed...I should have known that the other sources of 
time all had sources of error beyond my control.  I should have trusted 
the TruePosition as being the purest, least complicated, and the path I 
knew the most about between GPS and my eyeballs.


So for a while...the statement was true.  With my multiple sources of 
time...I really didn't know the time.  But it was also untrue, as when I 
got agreement between two very "pure" sources of time, I knew everything 
else was wrong.  ;)


I'm getting to the point that once I've got the button logic working, I'll 
send out my source to anyone who wants to take a look at it or use it.  I 
will stipulate one condition - you can't make too much fun of how poorly 
programmed it is.  ;)


thanks much and 73,
ben, kd5byb
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Re: [time-nuts] TruePosition on the Arduino

[Tom Miller]

Has anyone been able to get the Packrat software to work with a display? I 
have been successful getting the Arduino board to initialize the 
Trueposition board but can't get the display right.


The problem seems to be getting the I2C addressing correct. There are 
several 16x2 line displays available but they address at 0x20 to 0x27 and 
0x38 to 0x3F. Neither of these work.


Since we do not have the source, is there any way to find out what address 
is in use?


Regards

- Original Message - 
From: "Gregory Beat" 

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2017 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TruePosition on the Arduino



Ben -
I assume that you never received the Arduino "C code"
written by Bruce, WA3YUE for the original project?

Club's Powerpoint presentation indicated that source code was available.
http://www.packratvhf.com/techinal.htm

Packrat GPS Project (Gary, WA2OMY; Bruce, WA3YUE; George, KA3WXV) with 
TruePosition GPSDO and Arduino

by The Mt. Airy VHF Radio Club "Pack Rats" (Southampton, PA).
http://www.qsl.net/wa2omy/A%20Packrat%20GPS%20Receiver%20Project.pdf

greg, w9gb
==

original message / digest <
I'm getting to the point that once I've got the button logic working, I'll 
send out my source to anyone who wants to take a look at it or use it.
I will stipulate one condition - you can't make too much fun of how poorly 
programmed it is.  ;)

thanks much and 73,
ben, kd5byb
==
Sent from iPad Air
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Re: [time-nuts] TruePosition GPS Receiver firmware

[Tom Miller]

Maybe I have a problem unit but I measured the supply to the antenna at 3.7 
volts. I have a 5 volt antenna and it still receives sats at the lower 
voltage. Anyone else check this supply?  I wonder if it is a settable 
parameter?


Regards,
Tom

- Original Message - 
From: 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TruePosition GPS Receiver firmware


Cool. Should be interesting to see what you find. I've been hacking at the 
VxWorks side of things, off an on,
but have been distracted by this #wannacry business among other things. 
That TL866 is certainly a good value,

and it seems to work well.

Looking forward to hearing what you turn up. I'll keep poking at VxWorks 
in the mean time.


On 05/17/2017 08:46 PM, Mark Sims wrote:

I got in a TL866A programmer with the complete adapter set,   pulled the 
flash chip from my dead TruePosition, and dumped the chip.   Success 
first time!   Now to go through the ROM dump and see what hidden goodies 
there are.


A quick look seems to show commands for setting  Kalman filter parameters 
and antenna (?) attenuation. Also a GAIN command (maybe EFC gain or 
antenna gain).  There seems to lots of debug modes in it.


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Re: [time-nuts] TruePosition GPS Receiver firmware

[Tom Miller]

Has anyone figured out what the two small push buttons do?


- Original Message - 
From: "Ben Hall" 

To: 
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2017 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TruePosition GPS Receiver firmware



On 5/8/2017 4:45 PM, Mark Sims wrote:
Anyway, Heather is now doing a pretty good job of working with it. Oh, 
and the seller jacked up the price by $10.


Received one bare board and one LMU today.  The bare board is up and 
running as I type, happily doing a survey.  About 200 ma draw at 14.5 VDC. 
She was reporting a position somewhere in New Jersey when I first powered 
it up.


I'll bet the seller saw a sudden increase in demand and decided to raise 
the price.  Yes - the whole LMU is now cheaper by a few bucks including 
shipping, at least to my house here.


I don't have it on Lady Heather yet but plan to do that soon.  Is the 
version hosted here  have the 
TruePosition code in it?


thanks much,
ben







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Re: [time-nuts] TruePosition GPS Receiver firmware

[Tom Miller]

- Original Message - 
From: "Mark Sims" 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2017 3:03 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] TruePosition GPS Receiver firmware


One of my TruePosition GPSDOs fried a chip in the power supply when the 
wall wart that was powering it failed and started putting out 23V. It 
apparently ran for a while at that voltage before violently letting the 
magic smoke out.


If somebody can read a Spansion S29JL032H90TFI12? chip (some of the last 
digits are hard to read), I can pull it off the board and send it to you. 
Searching the dump should reveal strings that show more of what the 
command set is.  I believe the chip is a 48 pin TSOP.   I don't have the 
proper adapter for my Data I/O machines.

___


The two digits before the ? are very important. They describe the memory 
format. You may want to put it under your microscope.



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Re: [time-nuts] Austron/ Systrom Donner 8181 Time Code Reader

[Tom Miller]

If you know what the zener is and what the unregulated supply voltage is, 
you should be able to calculate the resistance and power.


Regards

- Original Message - 
From: "Dave Wood" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Austron/ Systrom Donner 8181 Time Code Reader



Bill, actually what happened is the zener diode that the resistor fed
shorted and that's the reason it burned up.  I have two units with this
issue and I cannot read the resistor value since it burned up.  What I
would love to know is what the original value of the dropping resistor
was?  73  Dave

On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 11:39 PM, Bill Hawkins  
wrote:



There is usually a power dissipation reason why a resistor becomes
toast, and the reason is frequently a shorted bypass cap or a shorted
device.

Have you measured the resistance to ground of the end of the resistor
opposite the power supply?

Sometimes inputs get high voltages and short the amplifying device.

Sometimes that is reason the units were for sale.

Hope I'm wrong.

Bill Hawkins


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Dave
Wood
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2017 8:43 PM

Anyone on the list own the above Time Code Readesr.  I have one of each,
they are identical with the same issue.  I need to identify the correct
value of a resistor in the power supply that provides 27 volts to the
input amp.  They are both toast in my units and I do not have a manual.
Thanks in advance!  Dave ___

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Re: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds

[Tom Miller]

Also, you might install a high quality machined pin socket. Save the 
non-replaceable PC board.


- Original Message - 
From: "David C. Partridge" 
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" 


Sent: Monday, April 03, 2017 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds


You can get a brand new CD4011BE from pretty much most suppliers at about 
15 cents that won't exhibit the problems of the earlier ones.


Dave

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Jeremy 
Nichols

Sent: 04 April 2017 00:44
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds

I have a new-to-me HP-59309A HP-IB Digital Clock. The clock works on both 
the internal crystal oscillator and on an external 10 MHz standard 
(GPSDO). However, it counts only to 60 seconds and then repeats without 
updating the minutes digit. The TIME SET (FAST and SLOW) push-buttons work 
but again, the count will not update minutes and hours, only seconds. The 
DAY SET procedure works correctly for days and months. All the other 
switches and buttons do what they are supposed to do. Using my 10526T 
logic pulser I can force the minutes and hours counters to work.

The power supply is in good condition (after replacement of a few
components) and I see no other problems (yet).

Tracing the clock signal through the logic circuitry brought me to U3 on 
the A4 board. This (U3) is a 4011 quad 2-input NAND gate in a 14-pin DIP 
package. It "connects" the seconds counter to the minutes counter and 
appears to have failed. One of the people on the email list 
 commented that the 4000 series CMOS 
chips have a known limited lifetime. Since these parts are no longer in 
production, the writer expressed the concern that any parts I might find 
to buy may be DOA.


Before I go hunting for parts, I'd appreciate hearing from anyone in the 
group who has experience with the 59309A Clock and/or the 4000-series CMOS 
family. In particular, are there modern equivalents to my 4011 chip? If 
the 4000's really do have a limited lifetime I'd rather use a substitute.


Jeremy, N6WFO


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Re: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds

[Tom Miller]

4000 series logic is just fine. Just replace the original parts with like.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CD4011CN-CMOS-Quad-2-Input-NAND-Gate-5-pcs-/272579598216?hash=item3f77029788:m:mSmV7o8qfGTPl04DaSu3DSw

Regards


- Original Message - 
From: "Jeremy Nichols" 

To: 
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2017 7:43 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] HP-59309A Clock counts only seconds


I have a new-to-me HP-59309A HP-IB Digital Clock. The clock works on both 
the internal crystal oscillator and on an external 10 MHz standard (GPSDO). 
However, it counts only to 60 seconds and then repeats without updating the 
minutes digit. The TIME SET (FAST and SLOW) push-buttons work but again, 
the count will not update minutes and hours, only seconds. The DAY SET 
procedure works correctly for days and months. All the other switches and 
buttons do what they are supposed to do. Using my 10526T logic pulser I can 
force the minutes and hours counters to work. The power supply is in good 
condition (after replacement of a few components) and I see no other 
problems (yet).


Tracing the clock signal through the logic circuitry brought me to U3 on 
the A4 board. This (U3) is a 4011 quad 2-input NAND gate in a 14-pin DIP 
package. It "connects" the seconds counter to the minutes counter and 
appears to have failed. One of the people on the email list 
 commented that the 4000 series CMOS 
chips have a known limited lifetime. Since these parts are no longer in 
production, the writer expressed the concern that any parts I might find 
to buy may be DOA.


Before I go hunting for parts, I'd appreciate hearing from anyone in the 
group who has experience with the 59309A Clock and/or the 4000-series CMOS 
family. In particular, are there modern equivalents to my 4011 chip? If 
the 4000's really do have a limited lifetime I'd rather use a substitute.


Jeremy, N6WFO


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Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Harmonics

[Tom Miller]

- Original Message - 
From: "jimlux" 

To: 
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2017 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Harmonics



On 1/19/17 8:48 PM, Rhys D wrote:

Thanks for the detailed post Bill,

I'm learning a lot here!
So the spectrum analyser is indeed a "trap for young players"
As you guessed, it is a Siglent SSA3000X series analyzer.

I just looked at the same signal again with varied attenuations dialed in
on the instrument (I am using an external 20dB attenuator from 
minicircuits

as well)

Here is what I saw:

Attenuation  -  Fundamental - 1st Harmonic - 2nd Harmonic
15 dB  -   11.40 dB  - 49.13 dB- 51.12 dB
20 dB  -   11.40 dB  - 48.84 dB- 56.48 dB
25 dB  -   11.28 dB  - 48.32 dB- 49.15 dB

I guess these numbers mean I can't really trust what I can see on the
instrument screen?


Actually, that's fairly good.  Most spectrum analyzers are good to about 
1/2 dB with a moderate level signal (your fundamental).


 The variation you're seeing is probably some combination of:
1) the mismatch between the source impedance and the spectrum analyzer 
input impedance - the latter of which almost certainly changes with 
attenuation setting

2) The calibration of the step attenuator.
3) maybe some change in harmonic production in the SA front end... in your 
case, though the harmonic levels go DOWN as the attenuation is decreased, 
which is the opposite of what happens with harmonics




If you want to see the levels of the harmonics you should notch out the 
fundamental.


Regards,
Tom

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Re: [time-nuts] Low CostTemperature sensor

[Tom Miller]

I agree with both of you. I can't imagine using the reverse leakage of a 
diode to measure temperature without some difficult and expensive design. 
Also, the transistor is using the forward biased B-E diode against what he 
stated in the article.


And sloppy would be the best description.

Thanks guys. Glad I am not the only one forming that opinion.

Regards,
Tom


- Original Message - 
From: "Scott Stobbe" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 9:10 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Low CostTemperature sensor



Thermometry based on Diode leakage current wouldn't be impossible I
suppose, you might loose some hair in the process.

The signal levels on the opamp are goofed too.

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 4:19 AM Charles Steinmetz 
wrote:


Tom wrote:



> That article has a major error. Anyone know what it is?



Well, the author says the reverse current of a diode is "directly"

proportional to temperature.  This could suggest that he means the

relationship is linear (the relationship is actually exponential with

absolute temperature).  But that's not really an *error* -- just sloppy.

  "Direct" does not necessarily imply "linear."  An exponential

relationship is "direct" in the sense that it is what mathematicians

call "injective" (every temperature corresponds to exactly one value of

reverse current).



Then, in discussing the LM95235, he says that it can use the

"collector-emitter junction diode" of a transistor as the sense element.

  Of course, a bipolar transistor has no collector-emitter junction.

His diagram correctly shows a diode-connected NPN operating in the

active region (forward biased, not reverse biased as the rest of his

article discusses) as the sensor for the LM95235.



Are any of these what you had in mind, or is there more?



Charles



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Re: [time-nuts] Low CostTemperature sensor

[Tom Miller]

That article has a major error. Anyone know what it is?



- Original Message - 
From: "Jason Ball" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Cc: "Perry Sandeen" 
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 1:11 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Low CostTemperature sensor



Even cheaper... Diiode as a cheap sensor ?

https://www.arrow.com/en/research-and-events/articles/using-a-simple-diode-as-a-ballpark-temperature-sensor


On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 4:16 PM, Bill Hawkins  wrote:


Perrier,

Google finds a Siemens NI1000 sensor that follows the nickel curve.
Nickel is popular in industrial control for cost, but not as accurate as
platinum. Converting the platinum curve to accurate temperatures
requires a second order equation, but has been done with 0.1% analog
converters.

Digi-key has ZNI devices as surface mount parts. Sparse data said
nothing about a platinum curve.

I'm curious because my former employer did very well selling platinum
RTD sensors, usually 100 ohms at the triple point.

Bill Hawkins


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Perry
Sandeen via time-nuts
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2017 9:33 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Low CostTemperature sensor

List,
A while back there was much discussion about temperature sensors.
One simple inexpensive one to consider would be the ZNI1000Temperature
sensor.
It's 1K ohms at 0C and it replicates the temperature curve of the Pt 1K
ohm sensors.
It's about $3 from Digi-Key.
FWIW YMMY
Regards,
Perrier
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--
--
Teach your kids Science, or somebody else will :/

ja...@ball.net
vk2...@google.com 
callsign: vk2vjb
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Re: [time-nuts] Anyone (ideally in the UK) got a spare rotary knob for the 5370B TI counter?

[Tom Miller]

- Original Message - 
From: "Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)" 

To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2016 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Anyone (ideally in the UK) got a spare rotary knob 
for the 5370B TI counter?




On 31 December 2016 at 13:03, EB4APL  wrote:


Hi,

I'm not totally sure about the limits, but I have read several times that
in the UK the nominal supply voltage is 230 V +10%/−6% to accommodate the
fact that most supplies are in fact still 240 V. The context was that a 
lot

of test equipment failed when operated at around 250 V and many input
capacitors (particularly the ones inside a know brand IEC socket - 
filter)

caught fire.

Wikipedia says that several areas in UK still have 250 V because this
value is withing the current limits.

I think that the governing document is British Standard BS 7697: Nominal
voltages for low voltage public electricity supply systems —
(Implementation of HD 472 S1).

Regards,

Ignacio, EB4APL




Hi,
I have just been on to the phone of a friend of mine who spent much of his
like working in the electricity generating industry. Working at both
Darlington (coal) and Bradwell (nuclear) power stations in the UK. Among
many other things he said

* He did not know the current specifications limits for certain, but he
said easy to check. (What you say - 230 -6%/+10% does seem to be quoted in
many places, but I guess I should check it out.)
* Supply voltage is likely to be highest about at 2-3 am in Summer
* Supply voltage is likely to be lowest on a cold Winter's afternoon.
* Voltages in use around the county include at the least 11, 22, 33, 66,
132, 275 and 400 kV.
* There's not much standardization of generator voltage - Bradwell nuclear
power station was 11.1 kV.
* There are taps on the 275 kV transformers to keep the 132 kV close to 
132

kV
* There are 6 taps on the 11 kV transformers feeding my house to adjust 
the
voltage. Those can only be adjusted with the 11 kV off - they can't be 
done

with it online. Essentially this means to change the taps, an area would
need to be powered off.
* If voltage is out of spec, it should be possible to get something done
about it.
* The electricity board can install monitor equipment.
* Since I am right by the 11 kV transformer, and other places further 
away,

dropping the voltage at my place might put other places too low.

I think short-term I will put the auto transformer in line. I will monitor
the mains, and report it in the summer, when I'm told it is likely to go
higher.

It hit 250.04 V in the last hour or so, but I have not seen the magic
figure of 253 V.

I'll get my 3457A calibrated by Keysight, then look to measure this and if
appropriate make a formal request to have the voltage checked, and
hopefully the problems would occur during the time it was monitored.

Dave
___


There are some devices that benefit from the higher voltage. Motors usually 
run cooler and last longer due to the lower I2R losses.
Maybe just use a buck transformer in your lab for the (older) test 
equipment.




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Re: [time-nuts] quartz drift rates, linear or log

[Tom Miller]

Just out of curiosity, what is the age of each of these Tbolts? (i.e. date 
codes?)


Thanks

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom Van Baak" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2016 4:54 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] quartz drift rates, linear or log


There were postings recently about OCXO ageing, or drift rates.

I've been testing a batch of TBolts for a couple of months and it provides 
an interesting set of data from which to make visual answers to recent 
questions. Here are three plots.



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Re: [time-nuts] I love the smell of tantalum in the morning

[Tom Miller]

I usually nibble away at the center of the part until it is two separate 
pieces. Then unsolder each piece. Clean the pads off with wick then install 
the new part.


Use a good sharp pair of flush cut side cutters.

Tom


- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Camp" 
To: "Tom Van Baak" ; "Discussion of precise time and 
frequency measurement" 

Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2016 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] I love the smell of tantalum in the morning



Hi

A *lot* depends on how many planes there are in that board. The weight of 
he copper
also maters a bit. If there is enough thermal mass, you will need a 
pre-heat process.
There are lots of ways to do it ranging from the kitchen oven to various 
“frame and

lightbulb” setups and on into ever more complex heating approaches.

If the hot tweezers / soldering iron / hot air tool does not reflow the 
solder quickly (10 seconds
or less) stop. Get a pre-heat setup and try again. With proper heat you 
should have the part
off in under 4 seconds. People don’t tend to use stopwatches when 
soldering. 4 seconds is quite

a while on a joint. Ten seconds is pretty much forever ….

Bob


On Nov 5, 2016, at 3:12 PM, Tom Van Baak  wrote:

See C13 in the attached photo. I need to replace some blown caps on a few 
boards [1]. In one instance the cap got so hot it melted itself off the 
board. Quiet convenient, actually -- it acts like its own fuse -- but I 
don't think the 5071 designers had that clever feature in mind.


Having not done SMT before, how should I do it with minimal risk to the 
very precious PCB. Or, what equipment should I use this as a good excuse 
to buy?


Thanks,
/tvb

[0] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078788/quotes
[1] http://leapsecond.com/museum/hp5071a/A1-mother.htm
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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Tom Miller]

Can you see the voltage on the yellow dipped tantalum under the board? I 
think that is what it is.



- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Reilley" <preilley_...@comcast.net>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
<time-nuts@febo.com>

Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO



That seems the most reasonable thing to do.

Pete


On 10/28/2016 3:20 PM, Tom Miller wrote:
It looks like that is the only device that could be damaged by 12 volts. 
Can you find a replacement and try running at 5 volts?



- Original Message - From: "Peter Reilley" 
<preilley_...@comcast.net>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
<time-nuts@febo.com>

Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO


The reason that there was 12 volts on the unit was because I put it 
there. I should
have tried 5 volts first but the only datasheet that I could find said 
12 volts.

All the eBay units that look the same say 12 volts.

Pete.

On 10/28/2016 12:53 PM, paul swed wrote:
I confirmed the pin out matches a 74s30 also. An S30 is TTL. Great pix 
to

look at.
So 12 V on a 5 V chip is indeed a smoker. Find out why there was 12 V.
OK crazy talk I see a 1K resistor next to the VCC chip. Would anyone be
crazy enough to use a dropping resistor from 12 V to get 5?? Really bad
engineering and I don't actually believe they would. But if true a open
74s30 would indeed show 12 V on pin 14.
Good luck.
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 12:48 PM, jimlux <jim...@earthlink.net> wrote:


On 10/28/16 9:13 AM, Scott Stobbe wrote:

The OCXO82-59 datasheet lists 12V supply, 5V clock out, could also be 
a

blown regulator in your ocxo, if it is indeed a 12v model.

There you go..the design could use a 74S30 as a driver - it's fast,
fairly good drive, but runs off 5V.  If the regulator is shorted, and 
you

put 12V on it, it will cook.


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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Tom Miller]

It looks like that is the only device that could be damaged by 12 volts. Can 
you find a replacement and try running at 5 volts?



- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Reilley" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO


The reason that there was 12 volts on the unit was because I put it there. 
I should
have tried 5 volts first but the only datasheet that I could find said 12 
volts.

All the eBay units that look the same say 12 volts.

Pete.

On 10/28/2016 12:53 PM, paul swed wrote:

I confirmed the pin out matches a 74s30 also. An S30 is TTL. Great pix to
look at.
So 12 V on a 5 V chip is indeed a smoker. Find out why there was 12 V.
OK crazy talk I see a 1K resistor next to the VCC chip. Would anyone be
crazy enough to use a dropping resistor from 12 V to get 5?? Really bad
engineering and I don't actually believe they would. But if true a open
74s30 would indeed show 12 V on pin 14.
Good luck.
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 12:48 PM, jimlux  wrote:


On 10/28/16 9:13 AM, Scott Stobbe wrote:


The OCXO82-59 datasheet lists 12V supply, 5V clock out, could also be a
blown regulator in your ocxo, if it is indeed a 12v model.

There you go..the design could use a 74S30 as a driver - it's fast,
fairly good drive, but runs off 5V.  If the regulator is shorted, and 
you

put 12V on it, it will cook.


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Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO

[Tom Miller]

When I have an unknown OCXO, I put a scope on the output and connect a bench 
power supply to the DC inputs. I bring up the voltage until the RF out hits 
a stable level. That is where the internal regulator starts regulating. Then 
set it to the nearest normal power supply voltage, +5, +12, +15, +24, +28 
volts.


Some OCXOs will have separate inputs for the oscillator and the oven. 
Example- an HP OCXO has a +15 regulated input that is switched for the 
oscillator and a +24 volt input for the oven that is on always. I usually 
try the same voltage as the oscillator first and watch the current as the 
oven warms up. If it takes too long to heat up, try a little higher voltage.


Some units have a separate ground return for the oscillator and oven so you 
need to watch that.


Good luck and thanks for the report.

Regards,
Tom



- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Reilley" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Opening an Isotemp OCXO



The only document that I could find said 12 volt.

Pete.


On 10/28/2016 11:49 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:


In message <10a3ea7d-37f0-51bc-2470-35645d767...@comcast.net>, Peter 
Reilley writes:



The chip is run off 12 volts so it must be CMOS.

Or the OCXO is not a 12V model ?




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Re: [time-nuts] COTS cesium standard physics package life

[Tom Miller]

Hi John,

I have a Datum FTS-5060 unit. Did you just open up the heater line to the 
beam tube? I like the idea of conserving the Cs when pumping down the tube 
for maintenance.


Regards,
Tom



- Original Message - 
From: "John Miles" 
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" 


Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2016 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] COTS cesium standard physics package life



1.  Cesium depletion, which only occurs when the tube is operating with
cesium oven on, and high voltage at the other end; and


The Cs atoms need to be electrically neutral, so their depletion rate 
shouldn't depend on the presence of HV, just the oven heater.  State 
selection wouldn't work on ionized atoms, and you also wouldn't want them 
to be accelerated towards the electron multiplier until after they've 
reached the ionizer filament at the end of the cavity.  (The longer they 
spend hanging out with Schroedinger's cat in the Ramsey cavity, the 
narrower the line width.)



2.  Tube vacuum and other physical aspects that may deteriorate over
time, whether or not the tube is operating.  The routine ion pumping
helps keep the vacuum up in storage, but is not as effective as the
continuous pumping that occurs during operation.


Some of the HP standards (5060, 5061, 5071) have a CS OFF setting that 
enables the ion pump by itself.  Those tubes should last indefinitely in 
that mode of operation.  Unfortunately the 5062C didn't have a way to 
disable the Cs oven while leaving the ion pump active, which is probably 
why there are so few operational 5062C tubes left.  By now, most are 
either out of cesium or too gassy for the ion pump to recover.


I added a switch to  my 5062C to allow the vacuum to be maintained without 
running  the Cs oven.  It gets turned on every so often, maybe a couple of 
times per year, when I want a noisy signal source with known ADEV 
characteristics.  Even though the ion pump runs 24/7/365, there are always 
a few overcurrent cycles on initial powerup for some reason, where the 
beam current exceeds the trip point and shuts down the power supplies. 
Something inside the tube is apparently outgassing during warmup --  
whether it's the Cs oven or the hot-wire ionizer ribbon, I don't know. 
But the condition always clears itself within a few  seconds.  The same 
thing happens when I turn my 5061s on after a long period in CS OFF.


- john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC


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Re: [time-nuts] Normal operating specs of a Morion MV89?

[Tom Miller]

Just put a 47 or 56 ohm resistor from the output pin to ground and look at 
it with a X10 scope probe.


Do you get a sine wave? Over 1 volt pp?

Otherwise, you can open up the can and replace the output chip capacitor.


Regards

- Original Message - 
From: "Scott Stobbe" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2016 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Normal operating specs of a Morion MV89?



If you used a 10x probe (10 Meg || 10-15 pF)  you may have a pretty weak
output, but if you could drive a meter of coax or a 1x probe to 800 mVrms
at 10 MHz your probably not too far off spec.

100 pF at 10 MHz is 160 Ohms.

On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Tim Lister  wrote:


On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> Hi
>
> You have one of the many MV89A’s with an output problem. To be 
> absolutely

> sure of the output, you need to have the scope set to 50 ohm input. If
it was set
> to Hi-Z, the output is likely even lower…..

It seems that the scope is 1 MOhm input impedance and is not
changeable. I will have to see if we have any 50 Ohm in-line
terminators around that I can also borrow. Does anyone think that
there is any value in trying to pursue a return and replacement with
the ebay seller (being China, it's likely to be a long round-trip time
for both messages and parcels) or just live with it and move on
(potentially replacing the capacitor later if I get some way of
getting the casing open safely). From what Bob and others have said,
it seems that most of the MV89's have this problem so it seems
unlikely I would get a better one without a lot of trials.

Tim

>
> Bob
>
>
>> On Sep 28, 2016, at 1:38 AM, Tim Lister  wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 12:56 PM, Bryan _  wrote:
>>> May also want to check the output amplitude. If memory serves me
correct it is very common for a capacitor inside this model number to 
fail.
It can be fixed but requires a torch or a pretty heavy duty soldering 
iron

to get the can open.
>>> http://www.rbarrios.com/projects/MV89A/
>>>
>>> -=Bryan=-
>>>
>>
>> I managed to borrow a Tek TDS 2024B 200 MHz scope from work and hooked
>> it up to the output of my MV89A. I get a peak-to-peak measurement of
>> 2.3 V which if I have converted it right is ~11 dBm ? Alternatively if
>> I turn on the FFT mode on the scope I get a peak value of -2.17 db if
>> I am driving the cursor mode correctly. With the 10 MHz from the
>> radioshackus GPSDO used for triggering, it takes ~18 seconds for the
>> MV89 waveform to drift 1 cycle (this is without anything connected on
>> the Uin or Uref pins).
>>
>> Tim
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>
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Re: [time-nuts] 53132A triggering

[Tom Miller]

- Original Message - 
From: "Charles Steinmetz" 

To: 
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 53132A triggering



Bob wrote:


Set it to:

1) DC coupled (AC does not go low enough)
2) 50 ohms if your driving source will tolerate it, otherwise 1 meg ohm.
3) Manual trigger mode (Auto is to fast and it forgets where the trigger 
should be)

4) Trigger level around 1/2 the PPS P-P voltage


I would just add the following:

1)  I'd be very surprised if AC coupling wouldn't work fine with a typical 
PPS pulse, which has very fast edges (low nS).  No LF response is 
required.  Indeed, AC coupling will keep any LF noise out (not that we 
expect much in this application).  This is true even if the PPS is a 50% 
duty-cycle square wave -- the spikes that get through every 500mS, 
alternating positive and negative, will have fast, accurate leading edges 
and will be way longer than necessary for proper triggering.


2)  If your source will not tolerate a 50 ohm load, buffer it.  Any 
significant length of cable between the source and a 1M termination will 
just slaughter your pulse.


4)  The relevant peak voltage is the actual voltage at the counter input 
connector -- which may be only 1/2, or possibly even less, of the nominal 
logic level, depending on the source impedance.


Best regards,

Charles


___


Don't forget to select positive edge.


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Re: [time-nuts] SR620 Problem

[Tom Miller]

You might say where you are. Maybe someone lives close that can assist you.

Regards,
Tom

- Original Message - 
From: "Don@True-Cal" 

To: "'Time Nuts Group'" 
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2016 5:17 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] SR620 Problem



Hello All,



Sorry if this is a repeat but not showing up in my sent mail. Changed the
list address slightly.



I'm looking for someone that has repair experience on the SR620 TIC. I 
have

a failed unit that has previously worked perfectly for many years while
running continuously on my lab bench. The failure occurred after a very
dirty mains power failure during a storm. There was no other evidence of a
severe lightning strike so I suspect just a major power line glitch. I 
have

a second unit so time to repair is not critical. I have checked and
confirmed all of the power supplies and eliminated all of the easy fix
scenarios already. The major symptom is absolutely no display of 
indicators
or readout (unit looks to be off), -DROPOUT form the PS is ok. I believe 
the

loss of LED and display is from the processor stopped U131B flop. I don't
have sufficient confidence, let alone spare IC to delve into the processor
chain. Is there someone in the US with this experience that I can send 
this

unit to for repair. Being retired and all this just being a major hobby
makes repair cost a big concern.



Regards.

Don J.



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Re: [time-nuts] DIY VNA design [VNA-Nuts?]

[Tom Miller]

Maybe do it on Mewe.com?

- Original Message - 
From: "Oz-in-DFW" 

To: 
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] DIY VNA design [VNA-Nuts?]



So is it time for VNA-Nuts?  I can probably host it.

--
mailto:o...@ozindfw.net
Oz
POB 93167
Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport)



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Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.

[Tom Miller]

Bill, that is a great deal for $99 for the full package. Very easy to use 
and learn.


Thanks for the link.

Regards,
Tom
WA3PZI



- Original Message - 
From: "wb6bnq" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Friday, August 12, 2016 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Working with SMT parts.



Hi Didier,

I use ExpressPCB as well, but I send the ExpressPCB file to a company 
called Futurlec
( http://www.futurlec.com/PCBService.shtml ).  They have reasonable 
prices.  Because it is overseas it takes about three weeks to get the 
product back.  So far I have been very impressed with the product I 
recieved.  I have even had notches done in the four corners to fit a 
plastic box that came out very well.


Also, There is a person who started to write his own version  of layout 
program based off of the ExpressPCB program called  "Copper Connection." 
(  http://www.robotroom.com/CopperConnection/index.html )  It is a bit 
more involved than the ExpressPCB program and does have GERBER files as a 
selection.  However he charges for the program but it seems the prices are 
reasonable ( http://www.robotroom.com/CopperConnection/Buy.html ).


73BillWB6BNQ


Didier Juges wrote:

The way ExpressPCB works is that their free software produces boards in a 
proprietary format, and you have to pay to convert their design file to 
Gerber.


Your mileage may vary but I found the combination of design tools learning 
curve, board quality and quick service to be worthwhile to me.


I have tried Eagle twice and never could manage to build the models I 
needed. It may have been an issue of not finding the right tutorial but I 
have produced several ExpressPCB designs in less time than I have tried 
(unsuccessfully) to produce a single schematic in Eagle, let alone a PWB. 
Since it is a hobby that has become a business, time matters to me, design 
time and delivery.


At that point, the cost of the Gerber becomes somewhat irrelevant.

Note that you can make boards of any size in ExpressPCB.

I am not advocating it is the best solution for everyone, I personally 
would like to be proficient with Eagle, but Express PCB works for me.


Didier KO4BB




On August 11, 2016 10:45:45 PM CDT, Chris Albertson 
 wrote:



This seems totally backwards.  Typically a Gerber file is something
you make yourself on your computer then send it in for a prototype.
Seems odd to buy them.

I checked ExpressPCB prices and they are very high.  I can get PCBs
made quickly in the US for $3 per square inch, shipping included with
$9 minimum order.  And  you don't buy the Gerbers.

I notice ExpressPCB offers free software.  But it is totally
non-standard and you can't use it for anything other then for their
service.  Most people needing free PCB software use Eagle, some use
Kicad or some others.  But Eagle seems to be kind of a universal
standard.




On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 8:55 AM, Didier Juges 
wrote:


I concur. I have been using ExpressPCB extensively over the last 2


years


with great satisfaction now that it is possible to get Gerber files


from


them.
I typically use the mini board pro service (3 bare boards, 2 sided


with


solder mask and silk screen) for prototypes and then buy the Gerbers


--

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] Safely getting the electrical length of a connected antenna feedline

[Tom Miller]

If you have a function generator with a sync output, you can use that pulse 
into a T connector with your scope to do a TDR measurement of the cable. If 
you have a scrap of the new cable, you can use that to calibrate the setup.


Regards,
Tom

- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Stewart" 
To: "Discussion of Precise Time and Frequency Measurement" 


Sent: Monday, August 08, 2016 2:18 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Safely getting the electrical length of a connected 
antenna feedline



Earlier this year, with some help, I pulled the dish off of an old DishTV 
antenna on the roof and put a 5V bullet antenna on the mast. I also pulled 
a new cable through by attaching it to the old one. The problem is that I 
was not able to measure the new cable. So, the question is, without going 
back on the roof in this heat, how can I measure the electrical length of 
the line I pulled?


I was thinking of using my 8640B signal generator and sending some RF back 
up the line to get a quarter wavelength at the null. But that assumes a 
lot, including that the other end is open at 3MHz, or whatever the 
frequency works out to be, as well as that the high voltage on the antenna 
end won't be high enough to blow the LNA.


So, how much RF I can safely send up the line? I've got an 8558B spectrum 
analyzer, but it's not on the bench, and it would be easier to use my 
scope, which sadly is a 70s vintage Tek 455. Do I put this all together 
with a lead from the generator to a tee at the measuring device and tune 
for a null? My experience at getting precise measurements on anything 
longer than a few inches is effectively none, but I'd guess that I want 
less than 0.5V at the LNA during this test. Oh, and I do have an 8444A 
tracking generator that can output -10 dbm as well as a 10 db attenuator 
within easy access. That could get a quick spot on the null point.


Most importantly, of course is the question of whether this will even 
work.


Bob - 
AE6RV -

AE6RV.com

GFS GPSDO list:
groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/GFS-GPSDOs/info
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Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna selection

[Tom Miller]

Do you have a picture of the balcony?


- Original Message - 
From: "Herbert Poetzl" 

To: 
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2016 5:29 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna selection




Dear fellow time-nuts!

I'm currently investigating my options regarding
GPS antennae (of course for time related purposes)
and I'm really confused by the variety they come
in ... (my apologies in advance for the long post).


Setting:

I'm living in a three storey house with a sloped
roof, a covered balcony and a larger garden with
huge trees on the Austrian countryside (Europe).

I've walked around with my smartphone (older one)
and I get a GPS position fix within 35s in the
garden (nine satellites shown), within 100s on
the balcony (also nine satellites), and not a
single satellite can be seen indoors.

The obvious choice would be to put the antenna on
top in the middle of the slanted roof for a perfect
sky view, but this brings a number of problems as
the roof is very hard to reach and quite high.

I have my 'lab' at the floor where the balcony is,
so I'm considering putting an antenna there and
run about 5-15m of coax cable to the GPS receiver.
The advantage there is that the antenna would be
somewhat protected (it still gets very hot during
summer and very cold during winter, but no rain
and no snow) and easy to reach for maintenance.

The third alternative would be to put the antenna
somewhere in the garden and have a rather long
cable running to the house and up to my lab.


Antennae:

Looking on eBay and Amazon shows a huge pricerange
for active GPS antennae with and without cable.

It seems to start at about 10 bucks with rather
small black boxes [1] designed for cars, probably
containing a 25x25 ceramic GPS antenna and an
amplifier, progresses over very interesting out-
door constructions for boats and whatnot [2] in
the 20-100 bucks range and finally tops with high
end devices [3] way above 100 bucks.

The information about the cheap devices is usually
very scarce, but typically boils down to:

1575.42 +/- 5MHz
24-28dB LNA Gain with 10-25mA at (3-5V)

7dB f0 +/- 20MHz
20dB f0 +/- 50MHz
30dB f0 +/- 100MHz

They seem to use RG174 and come with SMA as well
as BNC connectors (and a number of others as well).

The mid range devices seem to use larger antennae
with smaller tolerances (+/- 1MHz) and larger
voltage ranges for the amplifier (3-13V).


Questions:

- What are the key specifications which need to
  be verified before buying a GPS antenna?

- How can they be compared based on incomplete
  specifications?

- Is a place on the roof or in the garden worth
  the trouble over the covered balcony?

- Are there any typical pit-falls or general
  tips and tricks regarding mounting and cable
  connection to the receiver?

Many thanks in advance and my apologies again for
the rather lengthy post. Please feel free to point
me to previous discussion regarding this topic.

All the best,
Herbert


[1] 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/99-Good-GPS-Antenna-SMA-Screw-Needle-10m-Super-Signal-Navigation-DVD-Antenna-/171802461614


https://www.amazon.com/Waterproof-Active-Antenna-28dB-Gain/dp/B00LXRQY9A

[2] 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Standard-Horizon-XUCMP0014-GPS-Antenna-f-CP150-CP160-CP170/331364914004


https://www.amazon.com/Garmin-010-12017-00-GPS-GLONASS-Antenna/dp/B00EVT2HSE

https://www.amazon.com/SUNDELY®-External-Marine-Antenna-connector/dp/B00D8WAVTC

[3] 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-FURUNO-GPA018-Gps-dgps-Antenna-/182223355414

   https://www.amazon.com/Garmin-nmea-2000-orders-over/dp/B0089DU96A

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Re: [time-nuts] HP 106a oscillator connectors question

[Tom Miller]

I've seen these used for accelerometer cables.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wilcoxon-Meggitt-731-207-Low-Frequency-Seismic-Accelerometer-/301611300986?hash=item46396f387a:g:~vcAAOSwBahVPrby

http://www.ebay.com/itm/COLUMBIA-RESEARCH-CABLE-for-ACCELEROMETER-VIBRATION-10-32-CONNECTOR-BIN-K3-08-/262451526625?hash=item3d1b547be1:g:NtoAAOSwQJhUcVjB




- Original Message - 
From: "Mark Sims" 

To: 
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2016 6:30 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 106a oscillator connectors question


There is a connector that looks like an SMA connector, but isn't. 
Unfortunately I don't remember what they are called.  I have seen them 
used on microwave equipment (like VNA's).   Some idiots will really try 
hard to mate them with SMA's,  but just damage the connectors... and you 
don't want to know what replacements cost, especially when you have to 
have your VNA re-cal'd because the connector was damaged.
Hopefully one of our microwave experts will be able to point you in the 
right direction.

-

They are not SMA but look to be the same diameter.

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Re: [time-nuts] patents and hobbyist projects

[Tom Miller]

- Original Message - 
From: "Brooke Clarke" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2016 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] patents and hobbyist projects



Hi Attila:

In the late 1950s I bought an oscilloscope kit branded EICO (Electronic 
Instrument Co).  The story was that if sold as a completed product would 
have violated a patent.


--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
The lesser of evils is still evil.



In 1958 I built an EICO 425 kit that I got for Xmas. When adjusting the CRT 
by looking at the front while turning the tube at the rear of the neck, I 
found out what 1500 volts feels like. My arm hurt for several days.



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Re: [time-nuts] Spectrum Analyzer Specifications

[Tom Miller]

Most of the USB sound cards have a capacitor coupled input. If you jumper 
the cap they will go down to DC.


T
- Original Message - 
From: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2016 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Spectrum Analyzer Specifications



Thanks for the explanation.  I actually built
something like that 30 years ago using an LT-1028
op amp, only it used an HP3582 FFT box instead of
a sound card (which didn't exist at the time).
Does anyone have any experience with the low
frequency cutoff of sound cards?  You would
think 20 Hz, but maybe they go lower??  Any
recommended sound cards (or USB things that
work like sound cards)?

Rick

On 3/24/2016 4:42 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

Pretty simple:

Double balanced mixer, RPD-1 is one option, there are others.

Fairly simple L/C lowpass between the mixer and an op-amp.

20 db positive (non-inverting) op-amp amplifier string after the mixer

Output of the string goes to the sound card. Use a good (dual / quad) 
audio op amp


Quadrature amp picks off the output of the first op amp stage, switch and 
resistors to set gain, pot to set op point.




So what you have is an old style quadrature phase noise amp and “PLL”. 
More or less a very junior version
of the 3048 test box. Like any setup of this sort, you check two similar 
oscillators. They run in quadrature and
you do a few “measure this with switch in position A” sort of things to 
set things up each time.


Nothing exotic.

Bob



On Mar 24, 2016, at 12:25 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist 
 wrote:




On 3/23/2016 3:56 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

and standard covered. If you want to do spurs, spend $40 and build a 
phase

noise test set that will drive the sound card on your PC.

Lots of choices ….

Bob



Any documentation on this $40 phase noise test set?

Rick N6RK
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Re: [time-nuts] LPRO-101 BITE (~lock) Signal Always Low

[Tom Miller]

- Original Message - 
From: "Wayne Holder" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 9:42 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] LPRO-101 BITE (~lock) Signal Always Low



I have a surplus LPRO-101 that seems to power up OK.  The power draw starts
at 1.7 Amps and then, after a few minutes, drops down to 600 mA, or so 
and,

after this startup, the output shows a 10.000 MHz signal thats 's
accurately as I can measure it.  The lamp voltage is 6.2 volts, which 
seems

within spec.  However, the BITE signal that's supposed to indicate lock
with a LOW level is always LOW and never changes.  The docs say that BITE
signal should start at a HIGH level to indicate no lock and then drop to a
LOW when lock is obtained.  So, this behavior seems all wrong.

I opened the case and observed the purple glow of the lamp and probed
around IC U401, which buffers the BITE signal, and saw the same signal LOW
level.  U401 is getting 5 volt power and the inputs to the AND gate used 
as

a buffer for the BITE signal match what I'd expect.  But, lacking a proper
schematic, I'm not sure how to trace this back to the problem.  Has anyone
ever seen a symptom like this with an LPRO101?

Wayne
___


Does it need a pull up resistor?


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Re: [time-nuts] Fw: 5065

[Tom Miller]

Most of the time I have seen the MS3106 style connectors used for power on 
mil spec applications.


Does this one look like it is right?
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Amphenol-Industrial/MS3106F14S-1S/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv%2fye0hRulZR2pdaTIihrgU32yg4H0jMKs%3d

If so, you should be able to get it on the surplus market fairly cheap.

Regards,
Tom



- Original Message - 
From: "J. L. Trantham" 
To: ; "'Discussion of precise time and frequency 
measurement'" 

Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fw: 5065



Ulrich,

The connectors can be obtained reasonably inexpensively from Galco.

http://www.galco.com/shop/Circular-Connectors

They are a 3 pin circular connector, consisting of three parts, that are 
purchased as an 'insert', 'shell', and 'clamp', IIRC.  I don't have the 
part numbers in front of me but they are the same for the 5061 Cesium 
standards.


I can get you the specific part numbers if you can't find it in the 
archives.


I used a spare 3 wire extension cord and just cut the end off the cord and 
installed the connector to mate with the 5065A and 5061A.  I've been told 
that the wiring is different between the 5061A and some of the 5065A's but 
I've never found a 5065A that was different from my 5061A.


Might want to open the unit and make sure the wiring matches the 
schematic.


Good luck.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of KA2WEU---  
via time-nuts

Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 9:30 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fw: 5065


The HP 5065A Rubidium Frequency Standard requires  a circular 3 pin 
adapter cable that  can be plugged into 115V AC outlet.
I checked all cables I have  and this particular cable  is not finable. 
Can the unit set to 110/220 V

Maybe  this cable can be  purchased  or assembled ?   ULRICH
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Re: [time-nuts] Old xtal filter

[Tom Miller]

- Original Message - 
From: "Joseph Gray" 
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 


Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 2:31 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Old xtal filter



Assuming I made the pictures small enough, attached are two images of
an very old crystal filter that a friend found. The strange thing
about it is the bandwidth - 100 Hz. What could this have been used
for, with such a narrow bandwidth?


Joe Gray
W5JG






Loran maybe? It says 10 CPS for bandwidth.

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Re: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO

[Tom Miller]

- Original Message - 
From: "Daniel Watson" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 11:48 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Inside a CTS 1960017 OCXO



Hi,

I'm sure many of you are tracking the cheap CTS 10MHz OCXOs available on
eBay right now. I purchased a case of them, and decided to crack one open.
I took pictures along the way, thinking that might be interesting to the
list. Here is the blog post if you are interested:

http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2016/02/10mhz-ocxo-teardown-cts-1960017.html

Comments on the internal construction of the OCXO are welcome. It seems
pretty straightforward inside though.


Best regards,

Dan W.


Looks like it would use a lot of power in a cold environment. Maybe a second 
oven would be nice. They seem to have marked the turnover temp on the xtal.


Regards 


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Re: [time-nuts] Time syncing WiFi routers using FM radio

[Tom Miller]

Hi Mark,

Well, there is a measurable advantage with slotted TDMA over the random 
access scheme used now. whether there is enough accuracy in processing the 
very low bandwidth of the RDA payload is questionable plus you do need to 
recover the subcarrier from the FM payload.


Maybe a higher power GPS signal would be a better future?



- Original Message - 
From: "Mark Sims" 

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 11:59 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Time syncing WiFi routers using FM radio



Something tells me these guys haven't a clue...
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/11/11/boffins_teach_routers_to_tune_in_and_dance/
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Re: [time-nuts] Important parameters for a GPS/GNSS antenna

[Tom Miller]

How about a laser diode and pin photo detector? You should be able to get 
nanosecond resolution with light.



- Original Message - 
From: Tim Shoppa tsho...@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2015 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Important parameters for a GPS/GNSS antenna



Personally I would be happy with PPS time resolution at 10 nanoseconds but
others would want better than a nanosecond.

Gotcha with modulating the PPS onto a RF carrier, is that for time
resolution of 1 nanosecond, you would end up using a Gigahertz of 
bandwidth.


Tim N3QE

On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 11:49 AM, John Ackermann N8UR j...@febo.com wrote:


Just put the GPS antenna, receiver, battery, and a low power RF
transmitter modulated by the PPS (wide bandwidth = fast edge time) on the
turntable, then use an appropriate receiver to demodulate the PPS and 
feed
it to the rest of the system.  Put the RX antenna directly above (or 
below)
the turntable so the path length remains close to constant.  Using FM 
might

also remove Doppler effects from the received pulse.


On 5/7/2015 11:18 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote:


I wonder if anybody ever made a rotating GPS antenna to average out the

X-Y phase-center offset ?




 Of course, this does not really work with a gps antenna, unless you

put the whole receiver onto the rotary table. But then you shift
the problem onto the PPS output (note: amplitude noise translates
into phase noise).



Attila,

My thought was to put PHK's proposed experiment entirely on the rotating
table: antenna, receiver, local Cs standard, laptop, and battery. You 
could

also get interesting data if you slightly offset the antenna from the
center. It would make the ultimate GPS Spirograph. (for those of you 
under

40, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirograph will explain)

/tvb
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Re: [time-nuts] [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: Ultra High Stability Time Base Options for 53132A

[Tom Miller]

Hi Joe,

You might upload them to KO4BB.com with a short note on what they are. There 
is a 53132 directory there.


Regards,
Tom


- Original Message - 
From: J. L. Trantham jlt...@att.net
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2015 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: Ultra High Stability Time 
Base Options for 53132A



If anyone is interested in adding a clearer version of the 53132-60011 
board on page 13 of the CLIP for the 53132A, I have redrawn the schematic. 
I have the values of all components except 4 capacitors that appear to all 
be the same.  I can measure them, if needed, but I will have to remove the 
unit from my counter.


I plan to do that in a few weeks when the MV89 version of the time base 
arrives.


Please let me know if you would like a .PDF of the 'redrawn' schematic. 
About 2.2 MB file.


I also have pictures of the board if anyone needs that as well.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. L. 
Trantham

Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 7:04 AM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: [Bulk] Re: [time-nuts] [Bulk] Re: Ultra High Stability Time Base 
Options for 53132A


Fuzzy page 13 is the 53132-60011, with the extra components not found on 
the 53132-60016, which is on page 45 and much clearer.  It is an LM361M 
and is on both boards.


Now that I have the 53132-60011 board, I plan to start with page 45 and 
're-draw' a clear page 13.


Joe


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Re: [time-nuts] Looking for advice to get a submillisecond setup

[Tom Miller]

- Original Message - 
From: Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net

To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Looking for advice to get a submillisecond setup



On 2/20/15 6:30 AM, Chris Albertson wrote:

I think the easiest cable to make really long, if one must be long is the
antenna cable.   Use 100 meters of the kind of cable they use for cable
TV.  It comes double shield and has those compression type F connectors.
The cable can cary both the GPS signal and power for the amplifier that 
is
built into the antenna.  If the cable is very long, You would need 
another

in-line amplifier, again powered by the cable itself.


that's fine if you have a separate antenna(w/preamp) and receiver..

But something like the Garmin GPS-18x and other similar inexpensive 
receivers have integrated antennas.







And yes, a gps antenna needs a good view of the sky, but the receiver
itself can be 100+ meters away from the antenna



I think you're getting into receivers that are well into the hundreds of 
dollars range, if bought new.


For an inexpensive NTP for few hundred dollars to get better than a 
millisecond end of things, I think the integrated GPS antenna/receiver 
with a suitable computer right next to it is the way to go.  Then you're 
just running a network cable and power.



4 pair Cat5 sometimes works ok with RS232, sometimes not. At the 4800 bps 
of the garmins, it would probably work ok.
At least you're sending power from the same place as you're 
generating/consuming the signals, so you don't have the common mode 
voltage difference problem.


I like that idea in general.. a pair for power, a pair for TxD, a pair for 
RxD and a pair for 1pps. I'm not sure you'd want to connect the ground 
at both ends of the signal pairs, though.  What does the supply current to 
the GPS-18x look like?  Maybe it really doesn't make any difference. 
Hopefully your computer's RS232 input isn't drawing 10s of mA.

___


One needs to be careful with extending the 18X RS232 signal. It really is 
not true RS232 but more like a 5 volt CMOS like signal.


If you are using it in a wood frame house, it might work fine indoors. But 
in a steel/concrete multi-story commercial or industrial building, I would 
be more surprised if it worked than not.


tm

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Re: [time-nuts] DDS on AD9852

[Tom Miller]

- Original Message - 
From: d0ct0r t...@patoka.org
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2015 12:02 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] DDS on AD9852






Hello,

I would like to ask some advise about the signal distortion I get from
my DDS project.
The T-Bolt GPSDO is in use as a REF signal source (10Mhz) for AD9858
DDS. This chip has two COS analog outputs which opposite to each other.
I am using 20x reference multiplier in my project. And I am using Low
Pass filter and RF amplifier connected to ONE of the COS output. The
other output has no filter or op-amp on it. Attached is four files with
OSC screen shots, where the signal which goes through the filter and
amplifier somehow distorted. In contrary, the signal from another output
(without filter and op-amp) has near perfect curve. I am using the same
cable for connection to Oscilloscope.. And I set 5 Mhz output on DDS as
an example. In this my project I am using Ten-Tec broadband pre-amp. The
filter is standard Chebyshev Low Pass filter made by MINI-CIRCUITS.
Model PLP-90 (81 Mhz).

Here is the link to Ten-Tec
http://www.tentec.com/products/Universal-Low%252dNoise-Broadband-DC-to-1-GHz-RF-Preamp-%252d-Model-1001.html


Is it normal to have that kind of distortions for the signal, or
something wrong with design ?

--
WBW,

V.P.






You are overdriving the amplifier. What is the part number of Q1? It looks 
like a MAR-xx something.


The Tentek page does not have any good technical details on the amp that I 
could find. What info do you have?


Regards









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Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361 / Z3810A : problem with Z3812A/REF 0 unit power up?

[Tom Miller]

The interface jumper cable has several short pins that sometimes do not make 
a good connection. You might check that it is fully plugged in on both ends 
and that all 15 pins look ok. The cable crosses over the pins such that pin 
1 of one end goes to pin 15 of the other and so on.


There are some power supply test points on the top of the board that you can 
get to with the cover removed. There should be +5, +15, and -15 volts in 
there.


Do you have an amplified antenna connected to the GPS Rx input? The antenna 
should use +5 volts.



Regards



- Original Message - 
From: Stan swp...@earthlink.net

To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2015 5:42 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361 / Z3810A : problem with Z3812A/REF 0 
unit power up?




Hello,



I just received my Lucent KS-24361 and set it up on my bench to power it 
up.
I connected the Z3809A interconnect cable between the two units 
(Z3811A/REF

1, and Z3812A/REF 0) and applied +24VDC to the appropriate pins on the two
DE-9 connectors. The Z3811A/REF 1 ran through a sequential test of the 
four
LEDS and then after a few seconds it settled in with the amber NO GPS 
and
the red FAULT LEDs illuminated. Meanwhile, the Z3812A/REF 0 unit never 
lit

a single LED and is still sitting there with all LEDs dark. Both units are
drawing current: the Z3811A/REF 1 draws about 700 mA steady state, and the
Z3812A/REF 0 draws only slightly less: 600 mA steady state. So far, I've
swapped power connectors between the units and saw no difference, and I
tried to power up the Z3812A/REF0 alone, but still no joy.



Am I missing something about the setup, or do I have a defective Z3812/REF 
0

unit?



Thanks,

Stan

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Re: [time-nuts] Ball/Efratom MFS-209 Rubidium GPSDO...

[Tom Miller]

Nice work Chuck. So now you have a many port house reference that should 
last for many years. My unit took a long time to start from cold, I think it 
is operating in position mode and takes time to settle on the location.



Regards

- Original Message - 
From: Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2014 1:42 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ball/Efratom MFS-209 Rubidium GPSDO...



It's Alive!!!

The MGPS module was saying there was an A-to-D fault
and a Feedline fault.  Suspicious of the common element,
I traced the signal path from the GPS antenna connector
to the input of the ADC, and it was a straight DC path.
Sure, there were a few chokes, and capacitors to ground
to filter out any stray 1.5GHz signal, and to keep the DC
circuitry from loading the antenna signal.

I ordered up a new ADC converter, which was an ADC0808 by
National and TI.  A small 28 pin quad J lead surface mount
package.  It finally came, and I swapped it out this
afternoon.



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Re: [time-nuts] 1900kHz radiolcation testing on east coast US?

[Tom Miller]

They may also be modulating it to spread out the peak energy to meet EMI 
requirements.


Tom

- Original Message - 
From: Chuck Harris cfhar...@erols.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1900kHz radiolcation testing on east coast US?



Hi Tim,

Look for a switching power supply that is fairly new, and is
of the sort that doesn't need to be messed with to cover the full
120V to 240V range.

That sort of switcher is also known as a power factor correcting
switcher.  It has a PWM switched pre-regulator that takes the
unfiltered ripple straight from a full wave bridge rectifier, and
PWM's it so that it can charge the filter capacitor, without the
power line seeing anything but a resistive load.  It also controls
the inrush current.

PWM pre filters, because they quickly shift the pwm signal at a
120Hz rate, are capable of producing lots of broadband 120Hz
modulated garbage if their shields, or filters are compromised.

-Chuck Harris

Tim Shoppa wrote:

Would any time-nuts know of radiolocation-type testing going on, on east
coast of US, maybe around Maine? There is a very strong wideband signal 
on
1900-1920kHz, with a 120Hz substructure and a 4Hz rep-rate, likely 
megawatt

power range.

Sound sample (recorded with 2400Hz receiver bandwidth, although the whole
signal is far far wider bandwidth) at
http://www.trailing-edge.com/1910-intruder.wav

Pics of the waveform at http://www.trailing-edge.com/1910-intruder-1.png 
and

zoomed in at http://www.trailing-edge.com/1910-intruder-2.png

Tim N3QE
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Re: [time-nuts] tcxo

[Tom Miller]

Bob, if you are like me, you probably don't know where they all are, even if 
you wanted to count them. :)



- Original Message - 
From: Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] tcxo



Hi



On Dec 7, 2014, at 8:14 PM, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote:


albertson.ch...@gmail.com said:

The very first thing you need to do is figure out what your requirements
are.


Except that this is time-nuts, so the only requirement for some of us is
having fun.



The original post really gave no information about what the objective is. 
In the context of that post (Arduino’s etc), it’s a bit hard to guess what 
is being attempted. With OCXO’s on the surplus market at  $20 sort of 
prices, fiddling with a TCXO may not make much sense. That goes double if 
there is also a lack of measurement capability. Buying a $150 GPSDO and a 
$500 counter only to check your “I saved $15” TCXO is probably not a 
bargain, or a good use of time. Even a cheap OCXO is likely to blow away a 
“worked over” TCXO for stability.


No don’t ask how many counters and GPSDO’s I have …. it would take *far* 
to long to count all of them…Then there’s all the TCXO’s and OCXO’s ….


Bob




But yes, you are correct in that thinking about the big picture is a good
idea.


--
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] Lucent 24361 15 Mhz

[Tom Miller]

Best to remove the front panel and take it out the front. Still, it's tight 
and will require some contortions.


Tom
WA3PZI

- Original Message - 
From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com

To: Time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2014 9:01 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Lucent 24361 15 Mhz



Just started to trace out the 15 Mhz signal internal to the ref1. Top of
board side near oven and rs422 connector are the power amplifiers and
output on off control for the 15 Mhz. The signal comes from the bottom of
the board. J8 is 5 Mhz.
So will need to take the board out to trace further.
Not looking forward to that task.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL
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Re: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812

[Tom Miller]

Yes, and the antenna voltage is 5 volts. So be sure to use a 5 volt antenna.

Tom


- Original Message - 
From: Anthony Roby ar...@antamy.com
To: w...@aol.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom 
Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812



If you search through the recent messages, you'll see a link to a set of 
photos I posted.  This one 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5tlecUITRBLc3JyMElTdUwzMHM shows the 
front of the units. J7 provides the GPS power.


Anthony

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Don 
Murray via time-nuts

Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 10:30 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] STUPID QUESTION: Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom 
Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812


Hello all...

Just getting up to speed on the KS-24361...

My stupid question (s)...

Where does the GPS antenna connect??

Does the GPS antenna port power the antenna?

Need a replacement for my dead HP Z3816A...   ;-(

TIA...



73
Don
W4WJ



In a message dated 11/18/2014 3:26:52 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
m...@alignedsolutions.com writes:


One of  my Z3805's (with the double oven 10811 ocxo iirc) also performs
similarly at  times to the 58503A mentioned by Said.   From an adev 
perspective

it's close to my BVA at some tau's (around a hundred seconds or so  iirc.)
At times though the output seems to jump in  frequency.   My other Z3805
from the same source doesn't work as  well.

None of the 10811's in my various pieces of test gear (some of  which I 
basically purchased to get the 10811's) worked all that well from an  Adev 
perspective.  I used to buy HP5328 counters on the usual auction  site 
with
10811's and the 500MHz C channel for quite low prices. At least I 
still have

a nice collection of frequency counters.


Sent  from my iPad

On 2014-11-17, at 1:23 PM, Said Jackson via time-nuts 
time-nuts@febo.com

wrote:


Correct on all counts  Bob.

My two 58503A units from China are great for both ADEV  and PN
measurements, better than anything else I have as a combo (I have  Wenzel 
ULNs for even lower PN testing but they don't have any usable  ADEV).  I 
also have a costly BVA and it can't compete against the HP  unit.


Those 10811s just rule.

In fact my  only complaint about the 58503A are the 60Hz related small

spurs you can see  in the plots...


Bye,
Said

Sent From  iPhone


On Nov 17, 2014, at 12:28, Bob Camp  kb...@n1k.org wrote:

Hi

The 58503 is a Z3801 with a pretty instrument style package put
around

it - right?


If so, it might / should   have a 10811 in it rather than an MTI OCXO.
The 10811 is rated for -155 dbc at  100 Hz. That is much better than the 
noise floor that the MTI ??s seem to  produce at 100 Hz. About the only 
other GPSDO OCXO that gets to that level is  the one in the original 
TBolts . There you very much have to deal with spurs.  That make the noise 
floor of limited use in a practical system.


Bob


On Nov 17, 2014, at 2:26 PM,  saidj...@aol.com wrote:

Hi  Bob,

yes, the 10MHz plot is rotten, no doubt.  The 15MHz plot is quite
good

till about 40Hz offset, then it becomes pretty  rotten too.


Here is one of my 58503A units  (using the 10811 OCXO) as a
comparison.. measured against our DROR-IIA (this  plot was actually done 
to show the DROR-IIA PN, but since that unit actually  has less noise and 
spurs than the 58503A we can simply use it as the reference  for this 
purpose).


The good news is that  getting the close-in phase noise to be good
is
very hard to do and the unit  delivers that out-of-the box already. 
Filtering out the noise and spurs above  40Hz offset is pretty easy to do. 
It should be fairly straight forward to  cobble up a small PN filter for 
those units to get rid of the noise and spurs  above 40Hz offset.


bye,
 Said

In a message dated 11/17/2014 09:31:46  Pacific Standard Time,

kb...@n1k.org writes:

 Hi

Here ??s the phase noise on the 15 MHz.  There are a few spurs, and
an
very real hump out at the likely frequency of  the Lucent switcher.  The 
15 MHz is pretty clean compared to most /all of  the other units I ??ve 
seen on the surplus market.


I would not multiply this up to 40 GHz with a broadband  multiplier.
I
would be quite happy to run it into a PLL with a rational  bandwidth. You 
will beat the noise on the output with a fairly simple VHF VCXO  past 100 
Hz.

No reason to have a bandwidth outside the 20 to 80 Hz range.


Math:

15  MHz to 150 MHz - 20 log (N) - 20 db.

 -140 dbc / Hz shown below at 100 Hz offset - -120 dbc/Hz

You can get numbers better than -120 dbc/Hz at 100 Hz offset  out of
a
number of pretty simple VHF VCXO circuits. Bert has one that seems to 
work fine for him.


Bob

DROR-IIA_Phase_Noise.png



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Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...

[Tom Miller]

That first spike falls right at 60 Hz. I wonder if your test setup is 
picking up some hum?


Tom

- Original Message - 
From: S. Jackson via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com

To: kb...@n1k.org; time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, 
Z3810A,Z3811A, Z3812...



Hi Bob,

yes, the 10MHz plot is rotten, no doubt. The 15MHz plot is quite good till
about 40Hz offset, then it becomes pretty rotten too.

Here is one of my 58503A units (using the 10811 OCXO) as a comparison..
measured against our DROR-IIA (this plot was actually done to show the
DROR-IIA PN, but since that unit actually has less noise and spurs than the
58503A we can simply use it as the reference for this purpose).

The good news is that getting the close-in phase noise to be good is very
hard to do and the unit delivers that out-of-the box already. Filtering out
the  noise and spurs above 40Hz offset is pretty easy to do. It should be
fairly  straight forward to cobble up a small PN filter for those units to 
get

rid of  the noise and spurs above 40Hz offset.

bye,
Said


In a message dated 11/17/2014 09:31:46 Pacific Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org
writes:

Hi

Here’s the phase noise on the 15 MHz. There are a few  spurs, and an very
real hump out at the likely frequency of the Lucent  switcher.  The 15 MHz 
is

pretty clean compared to most /all of the other  units I’ve seen on the
surplus market.

I would not multiply this up to  40 GHz with a broadband multiplier. I
would be quite happy to run it into a  PLL with a rational bandwidth. You 
will

beat the noise on the output with a  fairly simple VHF VCXO past 100 Hz. No
reason to have a bandwidth outside the  20 to 80 Hz range.

Math:

15 MHz to 150 MHz - 20 log (N)  - 20 db.

-140 dbc / Hz shown below at 100 Hz offset - -120  dbc/Hz

You can get numbers better than -120 dbc/Hz at 100 Hz offset out  of a
number of pretty simple VHF VCXO circuits. Bert has one that seems to  work 
fine

for him.

Bob









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Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 NO GPS

[Tom Miller]

But remember why it was used. If there was a failure of one of the modules, 
it is necessary to do a hot swap of the defective module. Many of these cell 
sites (and simulcast PS sites) have a spec on availability up time and MTBF. 
Loss of site time reference counts as the site being down and goes against 
your availability record.


For what we use them for, powering down to make the connection does not make 
a difference.


Tom

- Original Message - 
From: Pete Lancashire p...@petelancashire.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2014 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 NO GPS



... LED goes out ... I though so but just wanted to make sure. I've
purchased a 2nd set and will see how that behaves. Also ordered a few
of the DE-15 (if that is the correct way of saying it) connectors. The
short pin concept seems to have not been a great idea.

-pete

On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org wrote:

Hi

On all my box pairs, the “NO GPS” lights all go out on all boxes once 
everything is “GOOD” as you define it.  A properly operating pair will 
have a STBY light (and only that light) on one box. The other box will 
have only the ON light lit.


Based on what I’ve seen. I’d suspect the cable between the two units as 
the source of (almost) any problem before I’d dig into the rest of the 
system.


Bob

On Nov 16, 2014, at 3:29 PM, Pete Lancashire p...@petelancashire.com 
wrote:


Like to confirm

It has been said ...

When you apply power, all the LEDs on the front panel will flash.  The
NO GPS light will continue flashing until you connect a GPS antenna.
Once it sees a satellite, the light will stop flashing and remain on.
The unit will conduct a self-survey for several hours.  Eventually, if
all is well, the Z3812A (REF 0 on its front panel) will show one
green ON light and the Z3811A (REF 1) will show one yellow STBY
light.  This means that the Z3812A is actually transmitting its 15MHz
output, and the other one is silently waiting to take over if it
fails.


Is this correct about the NO GPS LED ?

Once the survey is over, and the GPS is considered to be GOOD, should
the yellow NO GPS LED be lit ?

For me after being on for a while the LED for me are

REF 1
  NO GPS  ON solid  - this is the one I'm asking about
  Fault   OFF
  STBY  ON
  ON  OFF
REF 0
   NO GPS ON
   FAULTOFF
   STBY  OFF
   ON  ON
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Re: [time-nuts] Electrolytic Capacitor Question

[Tom Miller]

- Original Message - 
From: Perry Sandeen via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com

To: time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2014 6:32 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Electrolytic Capacitor Question



List,

OK everybody, let’s not get our pacemakers wound upG

The problem. (Long Intro)

I have about 15 pieces or so of older HP test equipment.
3586B, 5370B, 5335A to name a few.  Because of their age of 20+ years a 
few have failed and need repair. I
have decided to go on a wholesale electrolytic capacitor replacement on 
all of

them. (Mouser will be able to declare an extra dividend)

For all the *standard* types I’ve chosen mostly Panasonic
105C 10,000 hour caps. So far, so good.

Now I come to the issue of the wet-slug tantalums that were
used.  At the time of manufacture, these
were the best and most expensive low voltage electrolytics available.

The question is: can one replace the tantalums with the high
grade (105C) Panasonic or Nichicon capacitors with an equal or higher
capacitance value?

Even using the *tear drop* new replacements one is looking
at very heavy $$$.

Regards,

Perrier
___


Take a look at the Aluminum Organic Polymer Electrolytics.
Available in 105 °C and 125 °C.  They have very low ESRs. In the milliohms.

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/PLV1J470MDL1TD/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsIwzbKW1rlgcLka6aSC%252bMPM5mgSdKYBU4%3d

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[time-nuts] Ball Efratom MFS-209 Rubidium GPS Frequency Standard Unit *MRK *MGPS*

[Tom Miller]

This seller has three more of these units. They have a GPS disciplined OCXO and 
a disciplined Rb Osc. Normal operation used the Rb and fail over to a OCXO.

Each unit has 28 output ports for the 10 MHz and 28 output ports for the 1-PPS 
all on the rear. The run on AC or 28 volts DC.

Send a message to Gary for more info. The price is pretty good via make offer. 
However, they are heavy.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/151461513139?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2649ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT#ht_416wt_902


Best regards,
Tom
WA3PZI
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Re: [time-nuts] Ball Efratom MFS-209 Rubidium GPS Frequency Standard Unit *MRK *MGPS*

[Tom Miller]

Correction!

The distribution is configured for 5 MHz, not 10. There is 10 MHz available 
on two front panel BNC connectors. However, I think that can change. I'm 
looking.


Tom


- Original Message - 
From: Tom Miller tmiller11...@verizon.net

To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2014 10:58 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Ball Efratom MFS-209 Rubidium GPS Frequency Standard 
Unit *MRK *MGPS*



This seller has three more of these units. They have a GPS disciplined 
OCXO and a disciplined Rb Osc. Normal operation used the Rb and fail over 
to a OCXO.


Each unit has 28 output ports for the 10 MHz and 28 output ports for the 
1-PPS all on the rear. The run on AC or 28 volts DC.


Send a message to Gary for more info. The price is pretty good via make 
offer. However, they are heavy.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/151461513139?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2649ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT#ht_416wt_902


Best regards,
Tom
WA3PZI
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Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...

[Tom Miller]

Some of the parts on the underside are to provide power to the antenna. It 
does not use the GPS rx to do that. I guess they also detect any antenna 
fault.



- Original Message - 
From: Anthony Roby ar...@antamy.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, 
Z3810A,Z3811A, Z3812...



The photos I posted at http://goo.gl/87e8GG show the differences between 
the two boards - there is more to it than just adding a GPS board.  The 
underside has a bunch of additional components beneath the antenna 
connector.


Anthony

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of 
GandalfG8--- via time-nuts

Sent: Monday, November 03, 2014 12:00 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, 
Z3811A, Z3812...


Hi Arthur

Thanks for your further comments, and certainly no need for the  sorry.

It was your pioneering work that inspired recent efforts to  start with, 
and the confusion over the pin numbers that led Gotz to the, just 
grounding pins 2 and 3, 2 link solution we have now.


Overall, I'd say, not a bad result:-)

Good luck with the 10 MHz conversion, I'll probably do that soon as well, 
after bringing out the 5 Mhz, but for now I'm just letting them cook 
whilst monitoring the 15MHz.


As has been previously commented, aside from the GPS module, there seems 
to  be very little difference between the Ref-0 and Ref-1 modules, and I'm 
quite tempted to make up my own patch lead, whip out the GPS module from 
one of my Ref-1 units, and then couple the two Ref-1s together to see how 
they cope with that:-)


Regards

Nigel
GM8PZR




In a message dated 03/11/2014 17:13:15 GMT Standard Time, 
golgarfrinc...@gmail.com writes:


GandalfG8 at aol.com GandalfG8 at aol.com Sun Nov 2 09:08:30 EST  2014
wrote:

Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear !!

Arthur, I've only  just had a chance to look at your latest photos, and 
unless I've really got  my wires crossed, if you'll pardon the 
expression:-), your links on J5  are not shown on pins 2, 10, 12, and 15, 
but on pins 4, 6, 11, and  13.

+

Darn-I'm glad someone was paying more  attention than I was when I wrote 
that years ago. Apparently when I was  documenting what modifications I 
had made I just picked up a 15 pin D plug  shell to get the numbers 
instead of looking at the obvious numbers on the  RFTG socket connector 
and those connectors being mirror images have the  numbers reversed. I was 
out geocaching yesterday and didn't catch up on the  new posts until this 
morning so I'm a little late in responding. I also  checked to see if I 
had any other scribbles on the changes I made and found  this: If pin 2 
is held low the 'ON' LED will flash. A pulse low will turn  it on.
The RC timer holds pin 2 low to flash for about 6 seconds so you  can see 
it actually happens then pin 2 returns high and the 'ON' LED  stays on 
solid.


So apparently some of the parts I added were to  just make the light look 
like they were working correctly (can you spell  OCD?) and may not be 
necessary. As I originally said, this was a hack and I  wanted others to 
duplicate what I had done to see if any of it made sense  to them. At 
least it appears that by adding the circuit I came up with  and/or adding 
jumpers you can get the RFTG-u REF 1 unit to work without the  slave unit.
I just ordered another RFTG-u REF 1 and will see if I can  modify that and 
get it to output 10Mhz instead of 5Mhz like my original  unit.


Sorry about the screw up on the  numbers.

-Arthur
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Re: [time-nuts] Z3812 Diag port data? RE: time-nuts Digest, Vol 124, Issue 26

[Tom Miller]

If they are straight wired pin 1 to pin 1, pin 2 to pin 2, etc, they will 
not work.



- Original Message - 
From: Don Latham d...@montana.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2014 1:23 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Z3812 Diag port data? RE: time-nuts Digest, Vol 
124, Issue 26



Bob and all: Haven't hookedd upmy units yet. Marlon P Jones (MPJA) has 
some
Real Cheap 15 pin m-m cables that are 1 ft long, might be useful. no 
clipped

pins, whatever they're for. I don't think many of us want to hot-plug that
cable?
Don

Bob Camp


My boxes were flakey at first. What I finally figured out was that the
interface cable was the weak link. I’d bet that the short pins don’t mate
quite well enough with their sockets. After some wiggling all has been ok 
for

a while.



--
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those 
who

have not got it.
-George Bernard Shaw

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC
17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mail:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
VOX 406-626-4304
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812...

[Tom Miller]

Another mystery - what is on the three short pins?  Usually that is done for 
hot-plugging things and connects the ground first before the power is 
applied. In this case, maybe it is some critical data lines that do not want 
dirty signals? I will play some more later tonight.


Regards,
Tom

- Original Message - 
From: Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org
To: gandal...@aol.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency 
measurement time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2014 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, 
Z3810A,Z3811A, Z3812...




Hi

The supplied cable is indeed very short. It’s also quite stiff and a bit 
flakey (intermittent). I would bet at least one cold order of fries that 
there is no bi-directional serial between the two units. If there was, I 
doubt our little pin shorting exercises would get things running.


If there is no serial at all (no GPS data), that makes using the slave for 
a variety of projects quite simple (and thus attractive). One back burner 
TimeNut project is an ensemble clock.


If they are not looking at GPS strings, they are not doing sawtooth 
correction. That is an interesting observation (if true). These boxes have 
roots in the paranoid GPS SA era, so that might not be a big surprise.


Bob

On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:32 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts 
time-nuts@febo.com wrote:


Given the expected close proximity of these units, presumably it was 
only

ever intended that they should work as a pair, and I remember Stu Cobb
commenting on how short the supplied link cable is, I wouldn't be too 
surprised
if there turns out to be no serial comms between the units but perhaps 
just

handshaking via asserted levels.

Regards

Nigel
GM8PZR


In a message dated 02/11/2014 20:12:35 GMT Standard Time, kb...@n1k.org
writes:

Hi

Yes, getting the GPS version worked out is certainly the  thing most 
people

will be after. Doing the other box is a bit further down the  road. The
main thing (to me) is documenting the 15 pin connector as best we  can. 
That
way whatever somebody decides to do in the future, they have a good 
starting

point. Identifying which pins look like RS-422 and which look like  CMOS
would go a long way to figuring both sides of this out. When I did the 
other
connectors, I just ran through them with a DVM. 2.5V = 422 input, 1.5 or 
3.5

= 422 output. I didn’t have any CMOS. Everything else was either open
circuit or ground.

Bob


On Nov 2, 2014, at 3:01 PM,  GandalfG8--- via time-nuts

time-nuts@febo.com wrote:


Ah, I had wondered about that but was probably being a bit selfish  as I



only have the GPS based units:-)

Given the  similarity, I would assume where we've got to on these

wouldn't

be a bad starting point, and at least identifying the 1PPS input on the



interface connector should be straightforward enough.

Regards

Nigel GM8PZR



In a message dated 02/11/2014 19:41:07 GMT Standard Time,  kb...@n1k.org
writes:

Hi

No,  once we get the GPS end worked out, we need to do the  same thing

for

the non-GPS end. If we can fake it into working with just a   PPS, it’s

the
perfect thing to use to attach an OCXO to a newer GPS  (like the 
Jackson

Labs

part …).

Bob


On Nov 2, 2014, at 2:15 PM,  GandalfG8--- via time-nuts

time-nuts@febo.com wrote:


Hi  Gotz

That's great stuff, thank you, I'll try  that  later.

At this rate we'll soon be finding  ways of doing this  without any

wiring

whatsoever, perhaps we could start with just  standing it upside down

in

a

dark corner on the night of the  full  moon:-)

Regards

Nigel
GM8PZR


In a message  dated 02/11/2014 17:58:12 GMT  Standard Time,

go...@g-romahn.de

writes:



Am  02.11.2014 15:08, :

Ooh err, whoops, and oh dear!!

Arthur, I've only just had a chance to  look at  your latest  photos,

and

unless I've really  got my wires  crossed, if you'll pardon  the

expression:-),

your links on J5 are not shown on pins 2,  10,  12, and 15,  but on

pins

4,  6,

11, and 13.

As   far  as I'm aware the numbering from the front of that connector

as



shown

starts in the top right hand  corner and every  row is  numbered right

to

left.
That's certainly  how mine are numbered   anyway, and I wired them
accordingly,  and it worked, so  where the heck  does that leave us

now?:-)



--
thanks  Nigel for  detecting  this glitch. I removed all jumpers now 
and

tested  some   reasonable new/old combinations resulting in very simple
scheme:
it seems  to be sufficient to connect  pin2 and pin3 to  pin8 (ground).
Numbering as  provided  by Nigel and markings on my  15  pin-plug.

Götz

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Re: [time-nuts] HP 5300B - HP 5308A Counter Time Base Question...

[Tom Miller]

Hi Bert,

The service manual for the 5300B is on the keysight.com site under manuals.

http://www.keysight.com/main/techSupport.jspx?searchT=5300Bid=5300B:epsg:propageMode=OVpid=5300B:epsg:procc=USlc=eng

Do you have a frequency reference (house standard) that you can use to 
adjust the reference in the counter? See the manual.


Regards,
Tom




- Original Message - 
From: Burt I. Weiner b...@att.net

To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 3:19 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5300B - HP 5308A Counter Time Base Question...


I was recently given a HP-5300B / 5308A counter. I thought it might be 
handy when I'm at an AM broadcast transmitter and needed to make rough 
frequency measurements.  It turns out that at 1000 kHz it reads about 4.5 
Hz high. Looking inside I'm not sure if there's a time base adjustment.  I 
looked at the on-line manuals available and I don't find any reference to 
adjusting the time base frequency.  Does anyone here know anything about 
these counters?  Is there a schematic available?  I'm not looking for 
precision, but 4.5 Hz at 1 MHz seems a tad much.


Burt, K6OQK

Burt I. Weiner Associates
Broadcast Technical Services
Glendale, California  U.S.A.
b...@att.net
www.biwa.cc
K6OQK
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Re: [time-nuts] UPDATE: HP 5300B - HP 5308A Counter Time Base...

[Tom Miller]

Bert, the normal oscillator is just a crystal. Option 001 is a TCXO, no 
oven. If you do not have opt 001, I would look for the second adjustment 
internally. Two are shown on the schematic.



- Original Message - 
From: Burt I. Weiner b...@att.net

To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2014 8:39 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] UPDATE: HP 5300B - HP 5308A Counter Time Base...


The closest it will adjust is -2.5 Hz of 10. MHz.  This unit differs 
from the one in the manual in that it has a Microsonics OCXO with the 
adjustment on the side of the module.  The oven does not feel warm but is 
written on the side is: Adjust at 25 Deg C, which is about 77 degrees F. 
The schematic associated with the oven is missing from the schematic.  I 
suspect that the oven is either shot or not getting power.  The unit will 
not power up with the boards separated so I'm going to have to spend some 
time hanging wires out the side to make measurements.  Does anyone know of 
a schematic showing the Microsonics module and the associated circuitry 
for oven control?  Not sure if it's worth the effort, but it would be a 
shame to toss it - that's against my nature.


Burt, K6OQK




Tom  Bob,

Thanks for the comments and quick reply.  Tom,
when I originally did a  google search I did not
see the site that you sent, but from your
guidance I did find the manual showing the
frequency adjustment and I'm letting the
5300B/5308A combination counter heat up.  From a
cold start it's about 6+ Hz low when compared to
my house GPS reference - a DATUM 9390-52054.

In a bit I'll give the thing a tweak and it
should come right in as Bob suggests.  I don't
know the history of this counter except that the
fellow that gave it to me has nothing to really
compare it against nor the experience to question
its accuracy.  On my unit the oscillator
adjustment marking is gone, but the hole for the
adjustment thankfully is still there :

I'll let you know how it goes - should be a simple tweak.

Thanks Guys,

Burt K6OQK


From: Tom Miller tmiller11...@verizon.net
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5300B - HP 5308A Counter Time Base

Hi Bert,

The service manual for the 5300B is on the keysight.com site under 
manuals.


http://www.keysight.com/main/techSupport.jspx?s
earchT=5300Bid=5300B:epsg:propageMode=OVpid=5300B:epsg:procc=USlc=eng

Do you have a frequency reference (house standard) that you can use to
adjust the reference in the counter? See the manual.

Regards,
Tom

From: Burt I. Weiner b...@att.net

 I was recently given a HP-5300B / 5308A counter. I thought it might be
 handy when I'm at an AM broadcast transmitter and need to make rough
 frequency measurements.  It turns out that at 1000 kHz it reads about 
 4.5
 Hz high. Looking inside I'm not sure if there's a time base 
 adjustment.  I
 looked at the on-line manuals available and I don't find any reference 
 to
 adjusting the time base frequency.  Does anyone here know anything 
 about

 these counters?  Is there a schematic available?  I'm not looking for
 precision, but 4.5 Hz at 1 MHz seems a tad much.
 
  Burt, K6OQK
 

--

From: Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org

Hi

4.5 Hz at 1 MHz is 4.5 ppm. That’s not out of
the likely adjustment range on the basic crystal
reference on a 5308. It’s probably a simple
tweak to get it back into calibration.

Bob


Burt I. Weiner Associates
Broadcast Technical Services
Glendale, California  U.S.A.
b...@att.net
www.biwa.cc
K6OQK
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Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system

[Tom Miller]

I thought so too. There is an ultracap in each unit.


Tom

- Original Message - 
From: Mike Seguin n1...@burlingtontelecom.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, 
Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system



I have both of my units sitting on the bench. I found that I needed to 
connect them together to get the REF1 unit to come out of standby.


I am using GPSCon to monitor and it appears to work fine.

One thing on my units, when I power cycled them, it started a 'survey' 
over! I didn't expect that. Are others seeing this. There must be a way to 
store the surveyed position


Tnx,
Mike

On 10/30/2014 3:59 PM, Bob Stewart wrote:

Hi Anthony,
Did you power cycle both units as part of connecting them together at J5 
to J5?  And can you remind me whether you are using the supplied 
interface cable, or are you using something else?  After warmup, the ON 
light is on for the REF-0 unit and the STBY light is on for the REF-1 
unit.  While running, there is no output from J8 on the unit marked STBY. 
J8 works on the unit marked ON.  There is a timestamp coming from J6, and 
I think a 1PPS signal on some pin or other.


Bob From: Anthony Roby ar...@antamy.com
  To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

  Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2014 2:24 PM
  Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, 
Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system


I'm still having no luck with mine.  When I power on, the LEDs cycle, the 
Fault light is on and the No GPS and Standby lights flash.  When I 
connect my GPS antenna, the No GPS light stops flashing and stays on. 
After several minutes only the Standby light is on.


When I connect both the Ref1 and Ref0 together with the interface cable, 
the Fault lights on both units are illuminated.


Do you see the same?  I don't know what to infer from the Fault light 
since there is no supplemental data to work from.


Anthony


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--

73,
Mike, N1JEZ
A closed mouth gathers no feet
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Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system

[Tom Miller]

Task 1 complete.

Pin-1  -  Pin-15
Pin-2  -  Pin- 14
Pin-3  -  Pin- 13
...
...
Pin-14 -  Pin- 2
Pin-15  - Pin-1

Shell - Shell


Regards,
Tom



- Original Message - 
From: Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org
To: n1...@burlingtontelecom.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency 
measurement time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Friday, October 31, 2014 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, 
Z3810A,Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system




Hi

I suspect that somebody will have to figure out what the 15 pin connector 
/ jumper is doing. On previous RFTG units there was a way to re-wire the 
crossover interface to fake out the slave detect process. That would let 
you run a single GPS equipped box and have it behave correctly. Without 
the fake wires trick none of them played nice without the slave being 
present.


Yes that seems like it violates the spirit of redundancy. No I didn’t 
design it. Yes the guy who did spec it to work that way probably knew a 
whole lot more about exactly what they were after in the design.


I suppose the first task would be to figure out if the jumper cable is a 
straight through or not….


Bob



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Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system

[Tom Miller]

The fault light will come on until both oscillators have locked. It takes a 
long while, at least on mine.


I think it needs to establish the position before everything is stable.



- Original Message - 
From: Anthony Roby ar...@antamy.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2014 3:24 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, 
Z3810A,Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system



I'm still having no luck with mine.  When I power on, the LEDs cycle, the 
Fault light is on and the No GPS and Standby lights flash.  When I connect 
my GPS antenna, the No GPS light stops flashing and stays on.  After 
several minutes only the Standby light is on.


When I connect both the Ref1 and Ref0 together with the interface cable, 
the Fault lights on both units are illuminated.


Do you see the same?   I don't know what to infer from the Fault light 
since there is no supplemental data to work from.


Anthony

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Bill 
Riches

Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 4:10 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, 
Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system


My system arrived today in original unopened boxes.  Hooked up 24 volts 
and a gps antenna and it locked in about an hour and 10 MHZ output as 
compared with thunderbolt GPS seems to be working just great.  No trace 
movement on scope using thunderbolt as trigger and looking at Lucent 10 
MHZ output.
Strange output pulse!  Looking forward to 10 MHZ sine wave output mod that 
the gurus on the list will discover.


Wonder what these units cost new when they were built?

73,

Bill, WA2DVU
Cape May, NJ

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Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system

[Tom Miller]

Hi Bob,

Most of the answers were covered with Stu Cobb's original message from 
10/20/14 copied below.





- Original Message - 
From: Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 6:55 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, 
Z3810A,Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system




Hi

One thing that might help others who are having issues with these units:

Which pins did power go to?

Which pins do you see RX (and maybe TX) data on?

Which cables went where (and their pinout) to interconnect this or that?

What software are you using?

Yes, One could make some pretty quick guesses at most of this. It’s often 
a quick guess gone wrong that messes people up …


Bob




Fellow time-nuts,

This (long) post is a review of the HP/Symmetricom Z3810A (or Z3810AS)
GPSDO system built for Lucent circa 2000.  I wrote it because I looked
for more information before I bought one, and couldn't find much.
It's relevant because (as of this writing), you can buy a full system
on the usual auction site for about $150 plus shipping.  For those of
you lamenting the dearth of cheap Thunderbolts, this looks like one of
the best deals going.  The description of these objects does not
include GPSDO, so time-nuts may have missed it.  Search for one of
the part numbers in the subject line and you should find it.

So what is it?  It's a dual GPSDO built by HP as a reference
(Redundant Frequency and Time Generator, or RFTG) for a Lucent
cell-phone base station, built to Lucent's spec KS-24361. Internally,
it's a close cousin of a later-model Z3805A.  Externally, it looks to
be almost a drop-in replacement for the earlier RFTG system built to
Lucent's spec KS-24019.  That was a redundant system containing one
rubidium (LPRO, in the one I have) and one OCXO in two
almost-identical boxes.  That spec went through several revisions with
slightly different nameplates and presumably slightly different
internals.  You can generally find one or two examples on the auction
site (search for RFTG or KS-24019).

This system is similar, but the two boxes each contain a Milliren
(MTI) 260-0624-C 5.000MHz DOCXO, and neither contains a rubidium.  The
Milliren DOXCO is the same one used in the later models of the HP
Z3805A / 58503A.  It's a very high-performance DOCXO, in the same
class as the legendary HP 10811, and better than the one in most
surplus Thunderbolts.  The 5 MHz output is multiplied up to 10 MHz in
at least one unit, and 15 MHz in both units.  I don't have the ability
to measure phase noise on these outputs, but I'd be interested to see
the results if someone could.

Nomenclature:  The Z3810AS (there always seems to be an S at the
end) is a system consisting of the Z3811A (the unit containing a GPS
receiver), the Z3812A (the unit with no GPS receiver), and the Z3809A
(a stupid little interconnect cable).  The GPS receiver inside the
Z3811A is a Motorola device, presumably some version of an OnCore.
Where the Z3811A has a TNC GPS antenna input, the Z3812A has an SMA
connector labeled 10MHz TP.  That is indeed a 10 MHz output.  It
comes active as soon as power is applied to the unit, and its
frequency follows the warmup curve of the OCXO.  The two units have
identical PCBs (stuffed slightly differently), and I have no doubt
that someone can figure out how to add a 10 MHz output to the Z3811A
as well.

Operation:  From the outside, these units are broadly similar to
earlier units in the Lucent RFTG series. The (extremely valuable)
website run by Didier, KO4BB, has a lot of information on those
earlier units, much of which still applies here.  The purpose of these
units was to provide a reliable source of frequency and timing
information to the cell-site electronics.  The 15 MHz outputs from
both units were connected to a power combiner/splitter and directed to
various parts of the transmitter.  The units negotiate with each other
so that only one 15 MHz output is active at a time.  The outputs
labeled RS422/1PPS contained a 4800 baud (?) serial time code as
well as the PPS signal, which were sent to the control computer.

Power is applied to the connector labeled +24VDC and P1, in
exactly the same way as the earlier RFTG units. Apply +24V to pin 1
and the other side of the power supply (GND or RTN) to pin 2.  In
these units, that power supply goes directly to an isolated Lucent
DC/DC converter brick labeled IN: DC 18-36, 1.9A.  Presumably you
can run both units with a 4-amp supply.

Once you have applied power, connect the Z3809A cable between the
jacks labeled INTERFACE J5 on each unit.  The earlier RFTG units
used a special cable between two DE-9 connectors, and it mattered
which end of the cable connected to which unit.  The interconnect for
these units is a high-density DE-15 connector (like a VGA plug).  The
Z3809A cable is so short that the two units need to be stacked one
above the 

Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system

[Tom Miller]

More on the 10 MHz output.

The duty cycle is 60/40%, ground referenced waveform (bottom of waveform at 
0 volts). It wants to see 50 ohms for termination. Syncronis with the 15 MHz 
sine output and seems to come from a divide by 1.5 divider.


I have more digging to do but it's late.


Regards,
Tom 


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Re: [time-nuts] Z3812/KS-24361 PDF?

[Tom Miller]

There are a few parts missing on the board without the GPS Rx. But at least 
you have a model to copy from.


Sure wish they had used 10 MHz for the station reference. I don't have 
anything that will use 15 MHz. And the 10 MHz test port is really dirty.





- Original Message - 
From: Bruce Lane kyr...@bluefeathertech.com

To: TimeNuts time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 12:22 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Z3812/KS-24361 PDF?



Looks like Symmetricom got bought out by Microsemi. A search on
HP/Keysight's site shows only an entry which says the Z3812 is long
gone, even from their archives.

So -- Anyone know of a manual for the thing?

I would add, from initial observations of my unit: It looks like it
might be possible to add a GPS module to the backup unit and end up with
two independent GPS standard units (at least that's what I gather from
comparing the PC boards).

Keep the peace(es).

--
---
Bruce Lane, ARS KC7GR
http://www.bluefeathertech.com
kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech dot com
Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati (Red Green)

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Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system

[Tom Miller]

Until you have the two units tied together and GPS ok and the Fault light 
out, you won't see the 15 MHz signal. You should see a 5 volt pp square wave 
of sorts coming out of the 10 MHz port.


I found a clean 10 MHz signal on the collector of Q208 and several other 
points. These are on the back side of the board, near the 15 MHz connector.


I am trying to find out how they triple the 5 MHz to get 15 MHz. Maybe it 
can be changed to just double to 10 MHz. There are a few inductors on the 
board and that may make for a filter.


I don't yet have a computer connected. Does the SatStat program run under 
windows?



Regards,
Tom



- Original Message - 
From: Anthony Roby ar...@antamy.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, 
Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system



I played around today with these interfaces and couldn't get anything out 
of them.  I still don't have my GPS connected, but I would have thought I'd 
see something out of one of the ports.   I tested the serial port on my PC 
and that is working, but I don't see anything of note coming off the RFTGs. 
I have not connected both together through J5 - maybe that's the next thing 
to try.  Any particular reason why the -ve side of the RS422 signal is used 
vs. the +ve?


I was able also to get SatStat and the RFTG software running on Windows XP 
under VirtualBox.  Hopefully once I get a signal out of the units, that 
software will be stable.


Anthony


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Stewart 
Cobb

Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:53 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361, HP/Symmetricom Z3809A, Z3810A, 
Z3811A, Z3812A GPSDO system


Once you have applied power, connect the Z3809A cable between the jacks 
labeled INTERFACE J5 on each unit.  The earlier RFTG units used a 
special cable between two DE-9 connectors, and it mattered which end of 
the cable connected to which unit.  The interconnect for these units is a 
high-density DE-15 connector (like a VGA plug).  The Z3809A cable is so 
short that the two units need to be stacked one above the other, or the 
cable won't reach.  It doesn't seem to matter which end of the cable goes 
to which unit.  I don't know whether it's a straight-through cable, or 
whether you could use a VGA cable as a substitute.


When you apply power, all the LEDs on the front panel will flash.  The NO 
GPS light will continue flashing until you connect a GPS antenna.

Once it sees a satellite, the light will stop flashing and remain on.
The unit will conduct a self-survey for several hours.  Eventually, if all 
is well, the Z3812A (REF 0 on its front panel) will show one green ON 
light and the Z3811A (REF 1) will show one yellow STBY
light.  This means that the Z3812A is actually transmitting its 15MHz 
output, and the other one is silently waiting to take over if it fails.


Most time-nuts want to see more than a pretty green light.  The old RFTG 
series allowed you to hook up a PC to the RS422/PPS port and peek under 
the hood with a diagnostic program.  The program is available on the KO4BB 
website.  It is written for an old version of Windows, and I had no luck 
getting it to run under Windows 7.  It does run under WINE (the Windows 
emulator for Linux) on Ubuntu 12.04 LTS.

To use it, you need to make an adapter cable to connect the oddball
RS-422 pinout to a conventional PC RS-232 pinout.  The adapter cable looks 
like this:


RFTG  PC

DE-9P DE-9S

7 -- 5

8 -- 3

9 -- 2

(According to the official specs, this is cheating, because you're 
connecting the negative side of the differential RS-422 signals to the 
RS-232, and ignoring the positive side of the differential signals.

However, it's a standard hack, and it's worked every time I've tried
it.)

With that adapter, you can see the periodic timetag reports from the unit. 
The RFTG program will interpret these timetags when it starts up in 
normal mode.  However, when I try to use any of the diagnostic features 
built into the program, it crashes WINE.  The timetag output was required 
for compatibility, but I suspect that HP didn't bother to implement the 
Lucent diagnostics.


Instead, they added a connector which is not on the previous RFTG series. 
That connector is labeled, logically enough, J8-DIAGNOSTIC.
It too is wired with RS-422, so you need to use the same adapter cable as 
before.  Once you do, you'll find that this connector speaks the usual HP 
SCPI command set (Hooray!).  I used the official SATSTAT program (again 
under WINE on 12.04 LTS), but I'm sure that other programs written for 
this command set will work as well.  The default SATSTAT serial port 
settings of 9600-8-N-1 worked for me.


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Re: [time-nuts] float chargers for oscillator backup power

[Tom Miller]

Hi Jim,

I think these chargers are only meant for float charging the battery. They 
are not meant to supply a load (GPSDO) current.
It is more for connecting to your motorcycle or tractor battery and keeping 
it fully charged over winter storage conditions.


I just picked up a MeanWell 24 volt switcher rated at 24 volts @ 6.5 amps 
and has a fine adjustment that will go to 28 volts. Also, it has remote 
sense connections. It was $25 including shipping.


Regards,
Tom


- Original Message - 
From: Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 11:29 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] float chargers for oscillator backup power


There are a variety of inexpensive wall-wart packaged float chargers for 
lead acid batteries around. Might be easier to just get something off the 
shelf.


http://www.power-sonic.com/images/powersonic/chargers/AC-Series_12_Aug_15.pdf


http://www.mouser.com/search/refine.aspx?Ntk=P_MarComNtt=172260151

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Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361/Z3812A GPSDO initial setup

[Tom Miller]

These units are ideal for powering via a float charged lead acid battery. 
Use two 12 volt / 7 AH batteries in series and adjust the regulated float 
power supply to 28.0 volts. Be sure to use a diode from the supply to the 
battery just in case the supply can't be back fed during a power fail.


Tom



- Original Message - 
From: Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org

To: Bob Stewart b...@evoria.net
Cc: Time Nuts time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2014 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361/Z3812A GPSDO initial setup



Hi

Spend the effort, get an antenna outside the house. Beg / borrow / steal a 
UPS. Even a brand new one is less than you paid for the 3812.



Bob





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Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361/Z3812A GPSDO initial setup

[Tom Miller]

I really don't disagree with you. I did say run the supply at 28.0 and use a 
diode off the supply to the battery. That would place the float voltage at 
27.3 or so. Best would be to follow the manufacturers float service 
recommendations. Ideally it should also be temperature compensated with 
a -2.4 mV/°C slope. Not a problem with how we use these in the lab though.


And yes to get the longest run time, just power the main unit from the 
battery as Bob suggested.


Now I am just waiting on some DB-9 connectors. I ran out of them and the 
local RatShak went TU.


Tom

- Original Message - 
From: Christopher Brown cbr...@woods.net

To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2014 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361/Z3812A GPSDO initial setup




Might want to dial that back a bit.

Since 12V/7ah batteries are mentioned I am assuming standard small
gelcell units.

Proper float voltage for a deep cycle is lower than a SLI type, and
gellcell even lower.

Generally 13.6 - 13.8 would be the gellcell range, with 13.6 being right
on for long life use of _small_ batteries.  Equalizing charge wold be 14
- 14.2.

Floating a small gelcell at 13.6 (27.2) v.s. 14 can mean the diff
between 12 - 24 months v.s. 5 - 7 years service life.

On 10/25/14, 11:39 AM, Tom Miller wrote:

These units are ideal for powering via a float charged lead acid battery.
Use two 12 volt / 7 AH batteries in series and adjust the regulated float
power supply to 28.0 volts. Be sure to use a diode from the supply to the
battery just in case the supply can't be back fed during a power fail.

Tom



- Original Message - 
From: Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org

To: Bob Stewart b...@evoria.net
Cc: Time Nuts time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2014 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lucent KS-24361/Z3812A GPSDO initial setup



Hi

Spend the effort, get an antenna outside the house. Beg / borrow / steal 
a

UPS. Even a brand new one is less than you paid for the 3812.


Bob





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Re: [time-nuts] LTE-Lite module

[Tom Miller]

This looks pretty interesting:
74G series PO74G74

http://www.ebay.com/itm/330551715157?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT#ht_411wt_664

600+ MHz cmos 3.5 volt

Tom


- Original Message - 
From: S. Jackson via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com

To: kc0...@gmail.com; time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LTE-Lite module



Dave, et.al.,

upon popular request I put together a PDF of my email describing how I
generated a low-phase-noise 10MHz output from the CMOS 20MHz output of the
LTE-Lite GPSDO. Here it is.

No guarantees whatsoever guys, and it does take good equipment, a very
steady hand, and a lot of experience to put this together and make it work
properly.

This design can work up to 145MHz according to the 74LVX74 datasheet if
powered at 3.3V.

bye,
Said


In a message dated 10/18/2014 14:09:54 Pacific Daylight Time,
kc0...@gmail.com writes:

Hi,  Said.

I would be interested in having a copy of your app-note, if  that is
possible. I'd like to purchase one of the GPSDOs, but will need to  wait
for amonth or so.

Thanks.

Cheers,
DaveD

On  10/18/2014 12:19 PM, S. Jackson via time-nuts wrote:

Hi  guys,

lots of questions, let me try to answer  some of these. Bob, David, et.

al,

thanks for answering some of these  already!

Dave, as Bob said it depends on your  application -- and your time

frame.

Also, please check the FAQ for an  answer on the external TCXO

requirement,

specifically item 35. in the  FAQ on the Ebay website for the product.

Jim, I  ended up doing the appnote in email format, and sending out a
 description, schematics, PN plot, and photos yesterday, please check

your

emails. I won't do a formal appnote, sorry no time.. I hope the

description of

what I wired-up yesterday is good enough for folks to  try the same.

Ernie, as mentioned here the price  is $185 plus shipping on Ebay for the
entire kit. Shipping is  calculated by Ebay, and should be a flat-rate

of $10

in the  continental US

Hal, MY BAD!! I should have known  better and super-imposed both the
original 20MHz and 10MHz plots on  the same plot. I will do so shortly.

On the

table in the plot: the  TimePod tries to determine spurs, and display

them  on

the upper  right hand of the plot in a table, and with the phase noise

being
as  clean as it is I guess the TimePod software could only find two 
spurs,

 one at  0.8 and one at 0.9Hz offset from carrier, which was not even

shown in

that plot  since it starts at 1Hz.

Thanks so much for your feedback, lively discussion, and good  questions
guys.

I hope that answers all  questions,
bye,
 Said












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Re: [time-nuts] What sort of oscillator is this?

[Tom Miller]

Looks like I am having crow for lunch today.  I did find the 1D5 
installation instructions and at first it looked like the standard OCXO 
package used in many HP instruments. But some closer reading shows that it 
may in fact be a 50 MHz TCXO.


Tom

- Original Message - 
From: Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) 
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2014 4:57 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] What sort of oscillator is this?



On 28 Sep 2014 03:11, Alexander Pummer alex...@ieee.org wrote:


that is most likelly a TXCO, what is in the user's manual about warm up

time?

Two people responded - one says a OCXO and the other an TCXO!!

The warmup time is I think an hour,  but clearly that is not the time for
an oven to warm up.

If it was a frequency counter then I think the warmup time would be just
that of the oscillator,  as really I can't see much other than the
oscillator needing to be stable. But on a VNA one needs the temperature of
cables to be stable,  as expansion of cables is likely to cause phase
instability. So the time for the cables lengths to stabilise is probably
much longer than it would take an oven to stabilise.


if they have a special precise reference -- like for spectrum analyzer or

frequency counter that would have at least one magnitude better stability

I find it odd that an instrument that probably cost $50,000 when new did
not have a TCXO as standard,  and perhaps an oven as an option.

But I think HP did this sort of thing a lot. Something that would have 
cost

very little to add, became an expensive option. In some cases these
expensive options are nothing more than enabling a bit of software,
although the RD cost of the software is probably a lot more than the
hardware cost of adding a better oscillator.

Dave.
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Re: [time-nuts] What sort of oscillator is this?

[Tom Miller]

Dave, do you have access to a good counter? If so, you could profile the 
warm-up characteristic of the reference from a cold start. Then you would 
know if an oven is involved.


Tom

- Original Message - 
From: Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2014 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] What sort of oscillator is this?


There were two responses to Dave's question (TCXO and OCXO) and perhaps 
neither is correct. I don't have a 8720D VNA myself and Dave wisely doesn't 
want to spoil his calibration seals by opening up his instrument to take a 
look inside. So here's my guess based on the clues.


Agilent 8719D, 8720D, and 8722D Network Analyzers Data Sheet
http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5964-9133E.pdf

Base spec:
   Stability 0 °C to 55 °C ±7.5 ppm C
   Per year (aging) ±3 ppm C
Option 1D5:
   Stability 0 °C to 55 °C ±0.05 ppm C
   Per year (aging) ±0.5 ppm C

Installation Note 8719D, 8720D, and 8722D Network Analyzer
Option 1D5 High Stability Frequency Reference Upgrade Kit
http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/08720-90318.pdf

High-stability frequency reference output (Option 1D5)
Frequency: 10. MHz
Frequency stability (0 °C to 55 °C): ±0.05 ppm
Daily aging rate (after 30 days): 3 x 10–9/day
Yearly aging rate: 0.5 ppm/year
Output: 0 dBm minimum
Nominal output impedance: 50 ohms

To me, these specs are a bit better than all XO and most TCXO I've seen used 
in test equipment. But the specs are a bit worse than most OCXO I've run 
across. So which is it, TCXO or OCXO? The next clue is the attached photo 
found at:


Agilent 08753-60158 Opt. 1D5 for 8753D/E/ES

http://www.ebay.com/itm/151256172424

So we're looking for the specs for a Corning oscillator, P/N MC599X4. I 
didn't find much on the web (one link called it a controlled oscillator). 
Does anyone have information on this? It looks too large for a XO or TCXO. 
MC might be McCoy. Or, if MC indicates MCXO (Microcomputer Compensated 
crystal Oscillator) then that would nicely explain the shape/size and why 
the specs are in between a really good TCXO and a not so good OCXO.


Some photos of the inside of a MCXO (not necessarily the one in question) 
here:

http://design.ecs.psu.edu/2.0/Design/design_images/MCXO1.jpg
http://design.ecs.psu.edu/2.0/Design/projects2.html (scroll down to MCXO)

/tvb







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Re: [time-nuts] What sort of oscillator is this?

[Tom Miller]

The 70k SA should work fine. Just warm it up, set it for center freq. 
10.00 MHz, span 5 or 10 kHz. Feed in the 10 MHz reference and power the 
cold 8720 up. If it comes up near centered in a few seconds and does not 
change much, you have a TCXO. If way off frequency and drifting towards 10 
MHz, it's an OCXO.


How is it that a time-nut does not have a counter? (just kidding).




- Original Message - 
From: Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) 
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2014 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] What sort of oscillator is this?



On 29 Sep 2014 02:05, Tom Miller tmiller11...@verizon.net wrote:


Dave, do you have access to a good counter?


Not really.

I have an HP 7 modular measurement system,  which has all the bits for
a 22 GHz spectrum analyzer. The analyzer has a frequency counter mode, but
I have not written any software to grab data from it.

However,  I once had a contract where I wrote some code to collect data
from another HP 7 system,  so it should be a fairly easy thing to do. 
I

am not sure how well it works as a frequency counter.

I do have an 18 GHz counter, but it doesn't have a high stability
oscillator,  has no GPIB and has an intermittent fault.

The 7 series has the optional high stability time base, which is
definitely an oven. A red light comes up when the oven is cold.

BTW, for the 7 series you need to have the oven in order to lock the
system to an external reference.  One of the options for the high 
stability
time base is to delete the oven. Strangly some eBay sellers have been 
known

to have both and ask more for the one which has the option which deletes
the oven!


If so, you could profile the warm-up characteristic of the reference from

a cold start.

I will try to do that. It might take me a bit of time as I need to do some
things that earn me money.  They are of somewhat higher priority!

Dave
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Re: [time-nuts] What sort of oscillator is this?

[Tom Miller]

OCXO
- Original Message - 
From: Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) 
drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2014 5:36 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] What sort of oscillator is this?



The 10 MHz high stability oscillator (option 1D5) in my HP 8720D VNA
has the following specs

Stability
0 to 55 deg C, +-/ 0.05 ppm
Aging per year +/- 0.5 ppm

What sort of oscillator is this likely to be -  TCXO or OCXO?


Dr. David Kirkby Ph.D CEng MIET
Kirkby Microwave Ltd
Registered office: Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Essex, CM3 
6DT, UK.

Registered in England and Wales, company number 08914892.
http://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/
Tel: 07910 441670 / +44 7910 441670 (0900 to 2100 GMT only please)
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Re: [time-nuts] Correcting jitter on the 1 PPSsignalfromaGPSreceiver.

[Tom Miller]

Fast risetime pulses _are_ RF and need to be treated as such.

Tom


- Original Message - 
From: Tom Van Baak t...@leapsecond.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Correcting jitter on the 1 
PPSsignalfromaGPSreceiver.



How important are all these cable / termination / impedance issues for 
1PPS signals? I know ringing and reflections are undesirable in many 
applications. But for 1PPS?


I often use pick whatever cable, termination, and trigger level gives the 
cleanest edge, the best risetime. What happens to the signal tens or 
hundreds of nanoseconds after the edge seems irrelevant to me. Could one 
of you RF experts comment?


/tvb

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Re: [time-nuts] Correcting jitter on the 1 PPSsignalfromaGPSreceiver.

[Tom Miller]

So does adding ~80 pF per meter or 8 nF for 100 meters (RG58) to your output 
have any effect on the risetime? Because that is what it will see with an 
open cable.


I am sure you can make a case for some condition(s) where an unterminated 
cable will still work. But it is not something we have been shown necessary 
to make precise measurements (something this group strives for).


YMMV,
Tom


- Original Message - 
From: Mike S mi...@flatsurface.com

To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Correcting jitter on the 1 
PPSsignalfromaGPSreceiver.




On 9/15/2014 10:01 AM, Tom Miller wrote:

Fast risetime pulses _are_ RF and need to be treated as such.


You say that as if simply saying it provides an explanation, or even a 
reason. Exactly what ill effect on a triggered measurement is there if one 
does not terminate a PPS signal properly? Does/can termination increase 
the slew rate or make the speed of propagation more consistent, which 
might make the measurement more accurate?


Like Tom said, what comes after the leading edge of a PPS signal (which is 
the measurement trigger) seems irrelevant.


A simple though experiment. If I take a high impedance measurement at a 
tap 1M from the source, and the cable ends another 100M away, how can the 
termination or lack thereof at that end effect my measurement of a single 
event? It's over 700 ns round trip away? If I repeat that event 1/sec, is 
it any different? I can see where there would be a difference when I get 
close to a 700 ns cycle time, and likely before because of ringing. But 
for a 1 second cycle? Someone will have to provide more than a dismissive 
just because to convince me.

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Re: [time-nuts] HP5370 extender cards?

[Tom Miller]

Sure. I bet they would fit other instruments also.

How about a source for connectors?


Tom
.
- Original Message - 
From: Mark Sims hol...@hotmail.com

To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 4:43 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370 extender cards?


Well,  after doing my TM500 extender cables,  I was thinking of doing an 
extender board for the HP5370 boards.  It would take two 36 pin extender 
cards to extend a card out of the card cage (the count chain board has a 
different connector spacing than the other boards so splitting the 
extender onto two boards lets one be able to extend the count chain board 
also).  The board at the front of the unit has a different pin-count 
connector than the other boards and may not warrant doing its own extender 
card.
Is there any interest out there in HP5370 extender cards?   Depending upon 
quantity,  cost should be in the $15 to $20 range.

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Re: [time-nuts] GPS multipath

[Tom Miller]

Don't forget that the polarity of the reflection will reverse. RCP  LCP. 
and a 20 dB loss will occur.


Tom



- Original Message - 
From: Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2014 11:31 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS multipath



Clarifying my previous question..
There's no doubt that multipath exists, and how to test is fairly 
straightforward, whether with multiple antennas, cables, or waving cookie 
sheets around..


What I was really asking is if anyone had observed this in the output of 
their GPS receiver.


That is, say you were watching the 1pps output and comparing its to your 
ensemble of active hydrogen masers.. As you place and remove the cookie 
sheet, do you see any (fraction of a nanosecond) change in 1pps? 
(unlikely, since I assume the 1pps has a fairly long time constant).


Or more interesting, if you happened to have a GPS receiver that puts out 
raw observables of carrier or code phase, would you see a bump? Or if you 
were experimenting with your KF implementation, where you were comparing 
filter output (i.e. estimate of where it should be) and tracking loop 
output (i.e. where it is) would you see any discontinuity.


Ultimately, the way to find out is just to get a GPS sampler, record some 
raw bits, and then run the correlator and look for the second peak from 
the reflection.


There's been a lot of discussion over the years about good and bad 
locations for the antenna, and how multipath is a big issue with getting 
very good timing performance.  I was wondering if someone had a practical 
anecdote of better or worse performance that could be attributed to 
something on the order of a square meter.  (position inaccuracies in urban 
canyons are a good example of multipath from hundreds of square meters)


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Re: [time-nuts] Tektronix TM500 extender cable ki

[Tom Miller]

Mark, that is a nice idea and much easier to construct. Count me in for two 
sets.


Regards,
Tom

- Original Message - 
From: Mark Sims hol...@hotmail.com

To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 2:20 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Tektronix TM500 extender cable ki


I have seen the Jamma kit (I will be using their edge connectors) and 
John's design.   Their main problem is the hassle of wiring up 56 
individual wires.  Also that tends to be not all that reliable... wires 
tend to break at the solder joints.
The board that I laid out has two 40 pin ribbon cable box headers on it 
(the layout is compatible with IDE headers that have pin 20 removed or 
blocked).  All of the power pins on the TM500 bus use two conductors (plus 
Tek doubled or quadrupled most of the power pins).  The other pins are 
signal level pin that don't carry much current.  A single 28 ga ribbon 
wire of the appropriate length should be able to do an amp or so.  There 
should not be any major problems running most modules.
The same board is used on the mainframe side and module side of the cable 
(photo attached).
A nice thing about the design is you can very easily replace the cables 
with new ones of any desired length.









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Re: [time-nuts] Tektronix TM500 extender cable kit

[Tom Miller]

Except for the three wide units such as the CG5011, CG551, etc.

Tom

- Original Message - 
From: R.Phillips phill...@btinternet.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tektronix TM500 extender cable kit


Am I right in thinking that two of these connector/cables would give the 
full facilities on the 5000 series units.

Roy


-Original Message- 
From: Dave Daniel

Sent: Monday, August 04, 2014 4:02 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tektronix TM500 extender cable kit

Several people on the TekScopes/Tekscopes2 forums went through this a
while back. It turned out that ribbon cable appropriate for this
application was either not available or too expensive.

John Griessen made a set of PWBs and sold kits consisting of a PWB pair,
a connector pair and a set of pre-cut and pre-stripped wires. I believe
he sold all the kits.

I built one of mine and it works well. I use it with a TM-501 as a
stand-alone test setup for single-wide plug-ins.

DaveD

On 8/3/2014 11:54 PM, Mark Sims wrote:
I think a cable made from ribbon cable edge connectors would be the 
easiest/cheapest way to extend the GPIB connector.


Have you thought about making extensions for the smaller connector used 
to distribute GPIB in the 5000 series?

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Re: [time-nuts] OT Gel Cell question

[Tom Miller]

There are some other failure modes for gel cell (and other lead acid types) 
batteries.


One is a shorted cell caused be the plates warping and breaching the 
separator insulation. This is not recoverable.


Another more likely failure is corrosion of the connections to the plates. 
Also not recoverable.


If the battery is more than five years old it is most likely time to trade 
it in for a new one.



Regards,
Tom



- Original Message - 
From: Charles Steinmetz csteinm...@yandex.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2014 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT Gel Cell question



Robert wrote:

Anyone know why Gel Cell batteries go HI-Z if discharged below a certain 
level?

Also is there a way to rejuvenate a dead one?


As others have explained, the problem is sulfation.  I have had good 
results de-sulfating lead-acid batteries of all types (flooded, gel, AGM) 
with BatteryMINDer brand chargers/desulfators.  With badly sulfated 
batteries, rejuvination can take a long time.  Often, they return to a 
good approximation of like new performance.  Sometimes they improve but 
don't return to like new.


http://www.batteryminders.com/batteryminder-model-1500-12volt-1-5-amp-maintenance-charger-desulfator/

Best regards,

Charles



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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB updated remodulator schematic 2 mistakes and aquestion

[Tom Miller]

How does the 3.3 volts get into the Rx chip?

Tom

- Original Message - 
From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com

To: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com; Time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2014 2:50 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] WWVB updated remodulator schematic 2 mistakes and 
aquestion




I have received 2 different emails that what I published seems to have gone
out.
A 243KB PDF sent through time-nuts.
Also sent out dropbox links and indirectly it appears that works.
Would appreciate some more feedback please on how you may have obtained 
the

documentation to see what works best.

Also found 2 errors on the schematic and those are corrected here.
Both are around the 2n3904 transistor.
100K increased to 270K better behavior
47 ohm typo its 1.8K not really picky.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL








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Re: [time-nuts] Weather/units question for European members

[Tom Miller]

For civilian use, Miles/hour and inches Hg. Aviation and marine would be 
knots and inches Hg.


Tom

- Original Message - 
From: Mark Sims hol...@hotmail.com

To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2014 9:16 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Weather/units question for European members


I am building a weather sensor that includes a ultrasonic anemometer to 
measure wind speed, direction, and air temperature.  It uses 4 cheap ($1 
each) HC-SR04 ultrasonic rangefinder modules that output a pulse width 
proportional to the time of flight of the sound signal  (topic is time nut 
related since  it simultaneously measures the speed of sound in 4 
directions to a pretty good accuracy/resolution using a cheap-ass 
microprocessor - ATMEGA328 (like and Arduino)...  and does so without using 
any counter-timer channels).
Now the question...  I would like it to be able to output data in imperial 
or metric units.  In what units is the typical wind speed reported 
(meters/sec,  km/hour, ?).   Also air pressure 
(millibars/hectopascals/pascals/?).

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Re: [time-nuts] First success with very simple, very low cost GPSDO, under $8

[Tom Miller]

Your oscillator is on its way. I set it right on 10. MHz against a 
GPSDRb house standard. You will get a better waveform out if it sees about a 
100 - 200 ohm termination, though the edge is nice and sharp with some 
peaking overshoot.


You might get a bit more stability if you can add to the thermal insulation 
around the oscillator. Also, consider using the internal reference output on 
the pin marked n/c. It runs near 4.0 volts and is stable to ambient temp 
changes. Maybe put the whole thing in a Styrofoam container that has about 
one inch wall thickness.


Regards,
Tom



- Original Message - 
From: Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com; Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org

Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 12:30 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] First success with very simple, very low cost 
GPSDO, under $8




On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 9:48 AM, Magnus Danielson 
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:



In fact a 5 bit counter is enough, and then a '373 to sample it. The
enable to the 373 needs to be synchronous to the 5/10 MHz clock, so a 
pair

of DFFs ('74) is needed to synchronize the PPS and another pair to create
the single cycle enable.



It turns out all of this is built into the AVR chip.   There is a counter
and logic to copy the current counter value to a register on a PPS pulse
raising edge.The counter keeps running and every second its value is
trapped.

I can connect the OCXO and the PPS directly to the AVR pin.  The AVR has
hardware (a fast comparator) to square a low amplitude sine wave and 
trap
the counter on a zero crossing.   So it looks like I can get rid of  ALL 
of

the external chips.   The built in DAC is working well also but it needs
some external resisters and caps.

No need for '74 FFs or '373' or counter chips.I do get precision 
timing

with no time critical software, no 74xxx chips.


--
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [time-nuts] First success with very simple, very low cost GPSDO

[Tom Miller]

Don't you also need to wait for the GPS at first power up?

- Original Message - 
From: Charles Steinmetz csteinm...@yandex.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] First success with very simple, very low cost GPSDO




I should have said warm start, not cold. I was referring to the code, not 
the oscillator. So tell me, the OCXO is warm, there's no previous EFC 
information to draw upon, and the oscillator is off-frequency by more than 
can be measured with, let's say eight timer bits. What do those early 
measurements tell me, and which direction from midway should the EFC be 
adjusted?


That's why I suggested a timer.  Certainly, the delay chosen for a cold 
start would be excessive for a warm start, but I'm assuming that the 
GPSDOs we're discussing are not used in life-and-death circumstances where 
every second of unavailability is critical.  Whenever you power up -- warm 
or cold -- you wait (probably ~ 5 minutes) for availability.


Using the PPS to discipline the oscillator during warmup may seem like a 
good idea.  However:  (i) it will not be disciplined to useful time-nuts 
standards both because it is drifting and because the frequency is being 
set by the noisy, jittery GPS PPS signal.  But much worse, (ii) if the 
loop is fast enough to track the oscillator as it warms up, it is almost 
certainly too fast to give best performance at low to medium tau when the 
oscillator is warm, because the noisy, jittery PPS will be contributing to 
stability at tau where the nice, quiet OCXO should be in charge.


Precision takes time.  Time nuts can't afford to be impatient.

Best regards,

Charles




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Re: [time-nuts] Is this ocxo salvageable?

[Tom Miller]

I would agree with David. Or there is a SMT resistor or cap that is broken.

As to opening the can, do you have a vacuum desoldering station? I usually 
use a good iron the heat the seam and at the same time suck out as much 
solder as possible. Then use a small flat blade screwdriver to pry apart the 
seam. You just want the seam to fail as you work it all the way around. The 
main point is to get as much of the solder out as possible.


Take some pictures so we can see how it goes.

Good luck,
Tom

- Original Message - 
From: David McQuate mcqu...@sonic.net

To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 2:58 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Is this ocxo salvageable?


The output looks differentiated, as would happen if the wire connecting 
the internal circuit to the output pin became open, leaving only a very 
small capacitance to couple the square wave out.


Dave

On 4/8/2014 11:46 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

My Bliley square wave 10MHz OCXO was working just fine for close to 30
hours until a few hours ago.  Now it puts out a rather noisy waveform 
about

one volt peak to peak.

Two questions:
(1) Are these things repairable, the metal can is soldered.

(2) As you can see in the attached oscilloscope photo the OCXO still puts
out a strong 10MHZ component.  What is the best way to filter this and
recover a good 10MHZ square wave?

In the linked photo, both channels are set to 1 volt per division.  The
large sine wave is from a Trimble Thunderbolt and the smaller wave is 
from
the failed ocxo  The EFC is left open (disconnected) and a you can see 
the

frequency is spot on 10MHz.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0gy3yobd4myi4vp/waveform.jpg


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Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO control system

[Tom Miller]

You are nine days too early.

:)

Tom

- Original Message - 
From: Chris Albertson albertson.ch...@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPSDO control system



I'm working on a GPSDO but with different goals.  I want mine to be

1) very low cost, under $50 for everything if I can
2) No PCB required.
3) very easy to replicate by a first time builder
4) Easy to understand.  The parts count is very low, no exotic parts
and the software written very clearly so the code reads like the
tutorial for a beginner.

I started with Lars' Arduino based design and I've making slight mods.
But shipping from China takes a month and I'm waiting on parts.I
expect only  1E-11 level performance

The next one I build I want to be different. I don't need  yet another
copy of an old design.

1) Can I combine two oscillator technologies to get the best of both?
Perhaps phase lock an OCXO to a Rb and then discipline the Rb's
frequency.

2) is there some good way to control the temperature of the entire
assembly?  Perhaps dunk the entire thing into a container of
transformer oil?  Or use thermal epoxy to connect all the critical
parts to ONE common heat sink and then keep that at constant
temperature.   First I need some way to measure temperature very
accurately.

3) are 10MHz crystals the most stable ones?  I bet there is a sweat
spot frequency that is better.  Would 50MHz or 5Mhz be better?

4) why use a PPS as the communications link from GPS to GPSDO?  Can I
find a way to move the OXCO into the guts of a GPS receiver.  That may
mean I have to build a SDR based GPS receiver.

But first the simple one.  I'll post progress reports and photos

On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 11:32 AM,  ewkeh...@aol.com wrote:

Hi
There are many issues when it comes to a GPSO. But what has to  be first
discussed what is it one wants to accomplish. Last year when we worked 
on the

latest Shera GPSDO we always got better than 1E-11 with a unit lying on
the bench with no enclosure or thermal management.
Chasing elusive 1 E-13 and better, allow me to make a couple  of 
comments.

In order to get there, the total system has to be under  review.  Since I
know nothing about writing programs I leave that to  smarter people but 
be
clear software and code will not do it by it self. The  most critical 
part is
the thermal management of the OCXO or Rb and if analog  control is used 
the

DAC.and if used its output amp. We are controlling the back  plate of the
M100 and FRK to within 0.01 C and the front 0.1 C. The  DAC board and the
temperature controller are on the front, Voltage regulators on  the back.
After extensive testing the LTC1655 is our preferred  choice. Take a 
close

look specs are great for this application and most  important solderable.
There are better DAC's out there  but very expensive and I am not able to
solder. 18 bits would be nicer but 16  bits are for Rb's usable. The DAC 
part
has to have its own ground plane because  ground loops can create noise 
and
voltage changes it has to be tied as close and  separate to the OCXO or 
Rb. No
opto Isolation necessary as long as the  controller and DAC are in the 
same

box, sharing the same system ground.  Input  to the DAC can handle wide
ground variations. Took me years to find  that out.
Absolute must  how ever is opto  isolation between GPS, controller and 
PC,

again found out the hard  way.
The other part I like to touch on is the GPS input section. I  am not a
time nut but a frequency nut, but there has been so much talk in the 
past and
more recently about sawtooth. I am disappointed but not surprised that 
no
one has stepped up and offered a solution. The site has deteriorated to a 
lot

 of talk very little action. Right now there are still affordable and
solderable  DS1023's out there. Combined with a 12F629 or 12F1840 a 
sawtooth
correction is  possible for much less than $20. I bought last year four 
DIP and

10 in SOIC DS's  average price  below $ 5!  Even though I had a very bad
experience once with a Dutch so called time nut I am willing to make the
following offer. For the right person I make a board, PIC and DS1023 
available.
Maybe I just missed it but I do not think that there is something out 
there

 readily available.
Bert Kehren


In a message dated 3/23/2014 9:02:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
li...@rtty.us writes:

Hi

The real answer is  always that depends.

1)  How much does the sensitivity of your OCXO change with a change in 
EFC?

1.4:1,  2:1, 4:1  (slope sensitivity not % linearity)

2) How quiet is your  DAC compared to your OCXO?

3) How quiet is your reference compared to  your OCXO?

4) How much do the DAC, reference, op-amps, resistors,  capacitors, ... 
drift

with time?

5) How much test time is enough?  (hours, days, weeks ,.)

6) How good is the survey on your GPS this  time?

7) How much does your room temperature impact your 

Re: [time-nuts] FSCM 38243 Power Distribution Module

[Tom Miller]

- Original Message - 
From: d0ct0r t...@patoka.org

To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 12:54 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] FSCM 38243 Power Distribution Module




Does anybody knows if FSCM 38243 8-way P/D module is suitable for 10MHZ
frequency ? The module I have, has no other information on it except
Serial No.: 171-0100-048. Looks like its old Minicircuits product. But I
am not sure.  I am planing to connect 10Mhz GPSDO output to it.

--


Those transformers do not look like they are for any frequency near 10 MHz. 
I would take a guess that this is for UHF frequencies. Why don't you 
terminate 7 of the ports into 50 ohms and measure the loss from the main 
port to the 8th port. Do you have access to a signal generator and a RF 
voltmeter/spectrum analyzer/receiver/other way to measure RF?


Or feed in 10 MHz and look at the output with a scope. In any event, it will 
have a lot of loss, probably around 12 dB.


Regards,
Tom 


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Re: [time-nuts] Another atomic clock question

[Tom Miller]

- Original Message - 
From: Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net
To: Bob Albert bob91...@yahoo.com; Discussion of precise time and 
frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com

Cc: hmur...@megapathdsl.net
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 2:45 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Another atomic clock question



bob91...@yahoo.com said:

Okay you want numbers. Well, I think 10 ppb or thereabouts should do it.
Somewhere there is a discontinuity in accuracy plotted against cost and I
don't want to cross that barrier just yet. If I can get 1 ppb without a 
big

increase in cost, I'll take that.


How good is your crystal?

Junk crystals are good thermometers.  Ballpark is 1 ppm/degree-C
If you are running ntpd, turn on loopstats and measure the temperature...
 http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/ntp/slope.gif

I've been watching a 3 MHz ovenized crystal.  It was something like 4 for 
$25

from ebay.  It's a 2 in sq can, over an inch high.  It's got a few ppb of
noise over minutes/hours and a few more ppb of drift/wander over 
days/months.

It took several weeks to stabilize after power on.

--

Is that 3 MHz OCXO one from Ridge? If so, I opened one up and was surprised 
to find it did not have any foam insulation.


Tom 


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Re: [time-nuts] FSCM 38243 Power Distribution Module

[Tom Miller]

It looks like the input hits a 2 way splitter that drives each of four 
ports. Most of these have at best a 3 dB loss, more like 4.5 dB. Then it 
each of those gets split again to drive two ports. Then another split to 
each port. So lets say at best it is 3 + 3 +3 = 9 dB. But being broadband, I 
believe it will lose a bit more than 3 dB per split. Say 4 + 4+ 4 =12 dB.


If it is military, then it could be for something in the 225 to 400 MHz 
range. I don't think there are enough turns on the transformers for 10 MHz 
but I could be wrong. Only a test will confirm it and there are many people 
on this list that can make that measurement. I am in MD so if close, let me 
know.


Regards,
Tom


- Original Message - 
From: Robert Atkinson robert8...@yahoo.co.uk
To: t...@patoka.org; Discussion of precise time and frequency 
measurement time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 3:06 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FSCM 38243 Power Distribution Module


From the construction and components used it isn't UHF ;-) It appears to be 
7 two way splittters in series and the transformers look to have plenty of 
turns.


As you have a 10MHz source why not just try it out? You should get about 9dB 
attenuation input to output with the other ports terminated in 50R. This 
could be checked by reference to a 10dB attenuator with a 50R load, diode 
and multimeter as indication if you don't have an accurate power meter.


Or if you ship it to me I can stick it on a VNA and give you exact specs.

HTH
Robert G8RPI.




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Re: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time Frequency Standard, Datum

[Tom Miller]

Hi Dan,

Yes, it is Cesium Beam Tube.

Maybe someone can tell me the best way to search the time-nuts archive. Do 
you need to download all the files to a common DB?



Regards,
Tom

- Original Message - 
From: Dan Kemppainen d...@irtelemetrics.com

To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2013 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time  Frequency Standard, Datum




On 10/2/2013 10:34 PM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:

Hi guys,

I am going to pull it apart this weekend and do some more exploring. Hope 
to

get some pictures for reference.

I think I will make up some extender cables so I can operate the CBT
assembly away from the main chassis. That should make things a bit easier 
to

look at.

Thanks,
Tom


Just to clarify, CBT, is Cesium Beam Tube right? I made the mistake of
searching for that acronym, and ended up with some very different
results. Not time related results...

Dan
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Re: [time-nuts] trimble antenna connector

[Tom Miller]

You might TDR an F connector splice once. the F connectors are really pretty 
good.


Tom


- Original Message - 
From: Richard Solomon w1...@earthlink.net

To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2013 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] trimble antenna connector


I expect because the cable that was used was RG-6 and the easiest (read:
cheapest)
connector was the F connector.

How would you like to see your cable installer work with BNC connectors !!

73, Dick, W1KSZ


On 10/4/2013 9:38 AM, Eric Garner wrote:

why do older  thunderbolts use an F connector for the antenna? (the
current version uses a BNC).
It seems like it needlessly complicates installation at a base station.

I've always wondered this.



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Re: [time-nuts] Fw: FTS 4060 Cesium Time Frequency Standard, Datum

[Tom Miller]

Hi guys,

I wonder if the beam current amp is working? Shouldn't I at least see some 
noise when I run the gain all the way up? I need to wait until I get the 
manual to see where to look and what to check. I do know which DAC is used 
for the beam gain setting but where to see if it works is not too clear.


I know everyone says the tubes can't be rebuilt, but why?

Tom



- Original Message - 
From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fw: FTS 4060 Cesium Time  Frequency Standard, 
Datum



Joe,
I did not actually look at the numbers until your email. I did reformat and
clean them up for long term retention.
Right you are and will guess the ion pump e is a direct reading at 2.4..KV
The Ion pump I is nice and low
Beam is zero or noise or profoundly weak.
All of the other voltages look reasonable.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL


On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 9:08 AM, J. L. Trantham jlt...@att.net wrote:


Suspicious for a dead tube.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Tom Miller
Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 9:54 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Fw: FTS 4060 Cesium Time  Frequency Standard, Datum



Just to get this data on the list.

Here are the measured voltages on U1:

Pin Fn  Voltage Limits
9Beam I0.0011.01 to 3.73
18  Ion Pump E2.4361.72 to 3.01
7Ion Pump I0.0200 to 2.0
19  Elec Multi E2.0600.84 to 3.01
17  C-Field I  3.65  3.28 to 4.45   (front
panel
sw set at 500)
16  Cs Oven T  1.3791.27 to 1.55
20  Xtal Oven Pwr3.57  2.81 to 3.91
3180 MHz Lvl2.7840.1 to 4.8
212.6 MHz Dig 4.84   4.0 to 5.0
23  12.6 MHz Ana1.34   0.35 to 4.28
6 +5 Supply   2.4272.35 to 2.68
4 +18 V Supply 2.4842.42 to 2.68
22   - 18 V Supply 2.4811.72 to 3.52
21Chassis T  3.0452.62 to 3.44


It has been on for four days.

When I compare the 10 MHz out to my GPSDO, the frequency matches up when
the
control (meter 4) passes 3.2 volts. There is no movement in the Beam
current
(meter 3) as control sweeps.



Tom



  - Original Message -
  From: Tom Knox
  To: Tom Miller ; Time-Nuts
  Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 2:00 PM
  Subject: RE: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time  Frequency Standard, 
Datum




  If anyone has a service manual I am also very interested. Thanks
  Thomas Knox



   From: tmil...@skylinenet.net
   To: time-nuts@febo.com
   Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2013 13:22:45 -0400
   Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time  Frequency Standard,
Datum
  
   Hello Corby,
  
   Thanks for the help. Yes, could you copy me on the information for the
U1
   chip? I do not have anything other than the user manual from Brooke. 
At

this
   time, anything will be a great help.
  
  
   Best regards,
   Tom
  
  
   - Original Message -
   From: cdel...@juno.com
   To: time-nuts@febo.com
   Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 11:47 AM
   Subject: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time  Frequency Standard, Datum
  
  
   Tom,
  
   On the 4060 you can easily monitor the Ion pump voltage and current,
the
   electron multiplier voltage, and other important parameters by
measuring
   the voltages on the U1 chip on the uP board.
   This saves you fronm having to diconnect stuff to measure the HV and
   such.
   If you don't have a manual showing the pins of U1 I can post to pinout
   here on Time Nuts.
  
   Corby
  
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  =
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Re: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time Frequency Standard, Datum

[Tom Miller]

Hi guys,

I am going to pull it apart this weekend and do some more exploring. Hope to 
get some pictures for reference.


I think I will make up some extender cables so I can operate the CBT 
assembly away from the main chassis. That should make things a bit easier to 
look at.


Thanks,
Tom


- Original Message - 
From: J. L. Trantham jlt...@att.net
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time  Frequency Standard, Datum


Tom,

I defer to Bert on these issues.  He is the one that shepherded me through
the learning curve about the HP units.

I have a couple of HP 5061A's with FTS tubes and I agree with Bert that they
seem to 'work better' than the HP tubes.  However, I would think that the
ion pump current would at least 'move the meter' when the unit is turned on
for the first time after a week or two off.  If it failed to move the meter
at all, I would be suspicious of a dead HV supply or a shorted tube.  I know
first-hand that the HP tubes can be shorted but I don't know whether that
has been seen with FTS tubes.

Do you have any pictures of the interior of the unit?  Is there a manual to
be had?

Joe

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of ewkeh...@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 8:20 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time  Frequency Standard, Datum

Your observations are tru for HP tubes but not FTS. I see FTS tubes after 2
years pump down in 20 minutes.
Bert Kehren


In a message dated 10/2/2013 9:17:07 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
paulsw...@gmail.com writes:

Boy is  this good advice thats why I turn Frankenstein 9$125 flea market
special)on  every quarter check that it works etc. The ion pump being 0 is
the place to  start looking as Joe says 0 is very very hard to believe in
the types of C  units we get. Usually they have gas and the needle pegs or
is quite high  stopping the unit from starting.
So do basic troubleshooting first. All  voltages RF
Many of us here have experience with the HPs so the FTS may  not have the
places to take a look and see whats going on that  the  HPs have.
Regards
Paul


On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 7:28 AM, Bob  Camp li...@rtty.us wrote:


Hi

Welcome to  the reason a lot of us don't have running Cs standards.

There  is a very basic wear out mechanism with Cs. Once it's moved
from

one

 end of the tube to the other, the tube is dead. There is no practical

way

to rebuild the tubes. Running one will simply wear out the tube.  They

are a

very expensive toy to keep working.

 Bob

On Oct 1, 2013, at 9:53 PM, Tom Miller  tmil...@skylinenet.net wrote:

 Update.
 
 I received the FTS 4060 unit and guess what - it does not  work.

 So a few questions to the experts on this  list-

 1)  How can I verify that the CBT is in  fact bad? Is there any easy
 way
to confirm the high voltage supplies  are working short of pulling the
CBT assembly out and making direct HV  measurements? How about the
other tube functions? There is no beam  activity on meter 3 and the
ion pump voltage

is

0.
 
 2)  If it is a bad tube (likely), is there any way it  can be rebuilt?
Does anyone do such a thing?

  3)  Is there any source for used tubes?

  4)  If this is a dead end, is there any value in the rest of the  unit?
This one has the display clock and the 5 MHz and 100 kHz  options.

 Or should I just bury it in the back yard  and lick my wounds?


 Regards,
  Tom


 - Original Message -  From: Tom Miller

tmil...@skylinenet.net

 To: Discussion  of precise time and frequency measurement 
 time-nuts@febo.com
 Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 7:10  PM
 Subject: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time  Frequency  Standard,
 Datum


 While we are on Cs  standards, is there technical information
 (service
 manual)  available for the Datum FTS 4060 Cesium Time  Frequency

Standard

  and its options?

 Thank you,
  Tom

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Re: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time Frequency Standard, Datum

[Tom Miller]

Hello Corby,

Thanks for the help. Yes, could you copy me on the information for the U1 
chip? I do not have anything other than the user manual from Brooke. At this 
time, anything will be a great help.



Best regards,
Tom


- Original Message - 
From: cdel...@juno.com

To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 11:47 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time  Frequency Standard, Datum


Tom,

On the 4060 you can easily monitor the Ion pump voltage and current, the
electron multiplier voltage, and other important parameters by measuring
the voltages on the U1 chip on the uP board.
This saves you fronm having to diconnect stuff to measure the HV and
such.
If you don't have a manual showing the pins of U1 I can post to pinout
here on Time Nuts.

Corby

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[time-nuts] Fw: FTS 4060 Cesium Time Frequency Standard, Datum

[Tom Miller]

Just to get this data on the list.

Here are the measured voltages on U1:

Pin Fn  Voltage Limits
9Beam I0.0011.01 to 3.73
18  Ion Pump E2.4361.72 to 3.01
7Ion Pump I0.0200 to 2.0
19  Elec Multi E2.0600.84 to 3.01
17  C-Field I  3.65  3.28 to 4.45   (front panel sw 
set at 500)
16  Cs Oven T  1.3791.27 to 1.55
20  Xtal Oven Pwr3.57  2.81 to 3.91
3180 MHz Lvl2.7840.1 to 4.8
212.6 MHz Dig 4.84   4.0 to 5.0
23  12.6 MHz Ana1.34   0.35 to 4.28
6 +5 Supply   2.4272.35 to 2.68
4 +18 V Supply 2.4842.42 to 2.68
22   - 18 V Supply 2.4811.72 to 3.52
21Chassis T  3.0452.62 to 3.44

  
It has been on for four days. 

When I compare the 10 MHz out to my GPSDO, the frequency matches up when the 
control (meter 4) passes 3.2 volts. There is no movement in the Beam current 
(meter 3) as control sweeps. 



Tom



  - Original Message - 
  From: Tom Knox 
  To: Tom Miller ; Time-Nuts 
  Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 2:00 PM
  Subject: RE: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time  Frequency Standard, Datum



  If anyone has a service manual I am also very interested. Thanks
  Thomas Knox 



   From: tmil...@skylinenet.net
   To: time-nuts@febo.com
   Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2013 13:22:45 -0400
   Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time  Frequency Standard, Datum
   
   Hello Corby,
   
   Thanks for the help. Yes, could you copy me on the information for the U1 
   chip? I do not have anything other than the user manual from Brooke. At 
this 
   time, anything will be a great help.
   
   
   Best regards,
   Tom
   
   
   - Original Message - 
   From: cdel...@juno.com
   To: time-nuts@febo.com
   Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 11:47 AM
   Subject: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time  Frequency Standard, Datum
   
   
   Tom,
   
   On the 4060 you can easily monitor the Ion pump voltage and current, the
   electron multiplier voltage, and other important parameters by measuring
   the voltages on the U1 chip on the uP board.
   This saves you fronm having to diconnect stuff to measure the HV and
   such.
   If you don't have a manual showing the pins of U1 I can post to pinout
   here on Time Nuts.
   
   Corby
   
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Re: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time Frequency Standard, Datum

[Tom Miller]

Update.

I received the FTS 4060 unit and guess what - it does not work.

So a few questions to the experts on this list-

1)  How can I verify that the CBT is in fact bad? Is there any easy way to 
confirm the high voltage supplies are working short of pulling the CBT 
assembly out and making direct HV measurements? How about the other tube 
functions? There is no beam activity on meter 3 and the ion pump voltage is 
0.


2)  If it is a bad tube (likely), is there any way it can be rebuilt? Does 
anyone do such a thing?


3)  Is there any source for used tubes?

4)  If this is a dead end, is there any value in the rest of the unit? This 
one has the display clock and the 5 MHz and 100 kHz options.


Or should I just bury it in the back yard and lick my wounds?


Regards,
Tom


- Original Message - 
From: Tom Miller tmil...@skylinenet.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 7:10 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time  Frequency Standard, Datum


While we are on Cs standards, is there technical information (service
manual) available for the Datum FTS 4060 Cesium Time  Frequency Standard
and its options?

Thank you,
Tom

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Re: [time-nuts] HP5061B Beam Tubes

[Tom Miller]

Sure be nice if you could put them up on some photo site and let us see 
them.



- Original Message - 
From: ewkehren ewkeh...@aol.com

To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP5061B Beam Tubes



Did send Bill some pictures off list
Bert




Sent from Samsung tabletpaul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote:I have 
numbers of pix. Each is 2 MB so need another way to handle it.

You will get a good feel from the pictures what I did. Schematic is paper.
Lots of notes I would have to re-decode. It was Oct 2011.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL


On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 8:14 PM, wb6bnq wb6...@cox.net wrote:


Hi Bert,

Any chance of some high resolution photos ?

BillWB6BNQ



ewkeh...@aol.com wrote:

Twelve years ago I did disassemble a regular and a high performance

tube, the only negative effect was I joined time nuts. The guts still
decorate my window sill. The only parts inside that may be temperature
sensitive are some copper wires with a clear coating. Every thing else 
is

metal or ceramic.
Bert Kehren


In a message dated 9/23/2013 5:44:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
j...@miles.io writes:

I've always wanted to try baking the entire tube to vaporize any
accumulations of Cs metal outside the internal oven. Is that what you
did,
Paul? If some of the free cesium metal near the detector can be
recondensed
at the oven end, or just redistributed uniformly throughout the tube, it
might render a noisy tube usable again.

The point at which cesium vaporizes is 250C / 482F, and that seems like
it
could be survivable unless there are thermoplastic structures or
insulation
sleeves inside the tube for some reason. The operation might be tricky,
because while you wouldn't want to heat the tube sufficiently to 
vaporize

all of the remaining cesium in the internal oven, you would also need to
bake the tube for quite some time to heat its internal structures
uniformly,
since it's basically a vacuum bottle. Outgassing from various internal
materials and structures would also be a concern. Something to try with
a
tube that is otherwise ready for the scrap heap...

-- john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC




-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-
boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 12:52 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP5061B Beam Tubes

Tom
I added 10 degrees and used the built in temp sensor in the tube as a
gauge. So its sort of accurate to say 10 degrees. I remember evaluating



the



temp several ways.
I did not return it to original temp as I believed at the time I was



baking



out the last few Cs.
What your saying in the threads very interesting. But don't have time 
to




go



back and adjust or reconnect the old oven controller. I would have to



look



at all of that again to see whats needed. I did this about 2 years ago



its



in the time nuts archive I suspect.
Regards
Paul.




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[time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time Frequency Standard, Datum

[Tom Miller]

While we are on Cs standards, is there technical information (service 
manual) available for the Datum FTS 4060 Cesium Time  Frequency Standard 
and its options?


Thank you,
Tom 


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Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA

[Tom Miller]

In normal float battery service, the voltage is about 56 volts. During a 
equalize charge, it will be close to 60 volts. The unit you have most likely 
spent all its life at 56 volts. The 48 volt service comes from the nominal 
end of capacity voltage of a 48 volt (24 cells) at 2.0 volts (or less) per 
cell. Just like your car has a 12 volt battery, in normal service it runs 
about 14 volts.




Regards,
Tom

- Original Message - 
From: Mark C. Stephens ma...@non-stop.com.au
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2013 1:30 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New NTBW50AA


Everything here runs off 24V, but don't forget the higher the voltage the 
less current you need too..

I have heard of people running as high as 55v, shocking huh?

--marki


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Re: [time-nuts] sub-minute time-precision in court-case

[Tom Miller]

- Original Message - 
From: Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net

To: Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk
Cc: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] sub-minute time-precision in court-case


On 9/3/13 11:21 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

In message 5225f8af.60...@earthlink.net, Jim Lux writes:


In this case, all the messages were presumably handled by the same
carrier, so the issue of skew in timestamps is negligible;


Anything but.

The text-messages are likely stamped by the SS7-message-gateway
and the 911 call by the countys 911 equipment.



I was assuming (with no real basis, I realize) that the 911 call time
came from the cell equipment, rather than the Public Safety Answering
Point log.  The PSAP log would have no particular reason to be synced to
the carrier equipment. It could well be what time was on the watch of
the guy starting the equipment, although these days, one would *think*
that they use something like NTP to set the system time.

However, given my frustrated experience trying to get folks doing
testbeds and ground support equipment here at JPL to *please*
synchronize your computers meaningfully so we can merge logs, I wouldn't
count on it.  Or maybe they sync once every 24 hours.



In Maryland, all the 911 PSAPs have GPS clocks and everything (clocks, 
consoles, computers, logging recorders, etc.) is locked to GPS time.


As far as I know, that is the NENA national standard in the US.


Regards,
Tom 


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Re: [time-nuts] New Member

[Tom Miller]

24 Volt

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Power-Volt-BVA-24AS1-2-Power-Supply-24VDC-1-2amps-Used-Warranty-/200923505233?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item2ec7f96251

http://www.ebay.com/itm/24-Volt-7-Amp-DC-Power-Supply-International-Power-IHE24-7-2-/160956416537?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item2579c00219#ht_388wt_673

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MEAN-WELL-AC-DC-Power-Supply-Single-Output-24-Volt-1-8A-43W-Power-Supplies-Wa-/110906750531?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item19d28eb643#ht_399wt_911

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MEAN-WELL-AC-DC-Power-Supply-Single-Output-24-Volt-2-5A-60W-/110778716496?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item19caed1150#ht_468wt_911

48 Volt

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mean-Well-AC-DC-Power-Supply-Single-Output-48-Volt-2-2A-105-6W-S-100F-48-/400519292523?pt=PCA_UPShash=item5d40cf666b#ht_514wt_673

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MEAN-WELL-AC-DC-Enclosed-Switching-Power-Supply-Single-Output-48-Volt-4-2A-201W-/121105260543?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0hash=item1c326f9fff#ht_361wt_911

etc...


- Original Message - 
From: quartz55 quart...@hughes.net

To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Monday, September 02, 2013 10:32 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member


That's +24 VDC 'or' -48 VDC.  Nothing in between.  I have a hard time in 
ebay searching for things.

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Re: [time-nuts] Rb video

[Tom Miller]

Five (5) MHz is what normal NTSC video needs at a minimum. Most of those VDA 
units are good to 20 MHz, HD units sometimes go the 100's of MHz.


They all seem to handle a 10 MHz house clock just fine. But to satisfy any 
doubts, look up the data sheet for the op amps used.



Regards,
Tom


- Original Message - 
From: Mark C. Stephens ma...@non-stop.com.au
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
time-nuts@febo.com; Steve G8EBM st...@g8ebm.com

Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 9:39 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Rb video


Seems they are rated to 5MHz according to the manufacturer..
They ebay item number is 161081736069.

--marki

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On 
Behalf Of Eric Garner

Sent: Thursday, 8 August 2013 5:57 AM
To: Steve G8EBM; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Rb video

what's the performance of the distribution amplifier like?


On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 9:12 AM, Steve G8EBM st...@g8ebm.com wrote:


Great video.  The distribution units are still available on eBay.  I
bought two today.

Regards

Steve G8EBM

-Original Message- From: David J Taylor
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2013 11:30 AM
To: Time Nuts
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Rb video

Found this on Hack-a-day

http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=chrzrod3tQYhttp://www.youtube.com/wa
tch?v=chrzrod3tQY

Cheers

Raj, VU2ZAP
Bangalore, India.
==**=

Thanks for the pointer - I enjoyed that, particularly the PIC programming!

73,
David GM8ARV
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
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--
--Eric
_
Eric Garner
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