RE: Missed vote

[Paulo Gaspar]

For what is worth, I think Jon is 100% right on this one.

And he was cristal clear about the reasons too.

Regards,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 12:43 AM
> To: tomcat-dev
> Subject: Re: Missed vote
>
>
> on 7/16/02 1:14 PM, "Craig R. McClanahan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > What's so painful about a ten-line build.xml target that creates a
> > separate JAR file with just the javax.servlet and javax.servlet.http API
> > classes, if that's what you need?
> >
> > Sharing a CVS repository has little or nothing to do with how many
> > distributable outputs you create.  On the other hand, having
> both servlet
> > and JSP APIs in a single JAR file is quite useful to a very large number
> > of existing Tomcat (and other container) users, so it should be
> available
> > also.
> >
> > Craig
>
> I used to say the same thing about Turbine and Torque. You could
> use Torque
> without using any of the Turbine code...yet people refused to use Torque
> because it was packaged in the same jar file as Turbine.
>
> I also think that keeping two different API's in the same .jar file is a
> terrible idea. Think about all the issues we have/had with the XML api's.
> The Servlet API is also on a different release cycle than the JSP API.
>
> Also, having things in the same repo makes it to easy to create
> dependencies
> between the two API's...that is why the JSR's were split as well.
>
> As Pier said, 2 API's, 2 JSR's, 2 CVS repo's.
>
> Consider this my strong -1.
>
> -jon
>
>
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RE: Proposal draft for Tomcat 5.0

[Paulo Gaspar]

I keep having that feeling you don't even know what Avalon is.

You just "don't like them" or something like that. Did you consider
you could have something to learn "from them"?

Just asking!


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Remy Maucherat [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 5:07 PM
> To: Tomcat Developers List
> Subject: Re: Proposal draft for Tomcat 5.0
>
>
> Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> > "Remy Maucherat" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> >>
> >>>Remy Maucherat wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Hi,
> >>>>
> >>>>I'm committing a draft for a Tomcat 5 proposal.
> >>>>
> >>>>It is a draft, so it is not in final form yet (it needs feedback for
> >>>>that).
> >>>>
> >>>>I'm attaching the document to the mail, in case people don't want to
> >>>>checkout the repository.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>What about using Avalon as a framework?
> >>>This way we would have a unified server environment, and
> reusable server
> >>>components.
> >>
> >>-1.
> >>(I'm tired of replying to this)
> >>
> >>Avalon is the contrary of flexibility, so it will not be considered (at
> >>least not by me).
> >
> >
> > That's a JOKE right?
>
> Ok, so maybe my statement was too strong ;-)
>
> For all the things it gives you, Avalon is a framework, and makes you
> feel like it. It imposes contracts between components / patterns,
> packaging, etc. All things which aren't compatible with 5.0. And more
> importantly, the API changes often, to the extent that all the projects
> which use Avalon work off a specific snapshot, and don't upgrade
> too often.
>
> Also, most of the utility provided by Avalon are available from the
> commons without any string attached, and/or are of a better quality.
>
> There has been plenty of discussion on that with Paul, and during the
> whole commons-logging incident, at which point I thought it would be
> best if I didn't have anything to do with Avalon.
>
> OTOH, we could have optional Avalon wrappers again, as long as there is
> someone to write them *and* maintain them when the API changes. So +0.1
> to work nice with Avalon, but -1 for basing the architecture on Avalon.
>
> Remy
>
>
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Problems with tomcat downloads for OS X (via Webmaster)

[Paulo Gaspar]

Via webmaster, please check the "Original Message" that follows.

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Gunnar Schomaker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 12:04 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: starting problems with tomcat packages on os x
> 
> 
> Dear frinds,
> 
> I hope you will forward my message to the matching place ;-) THX.:!
> 
> I have downloaded the tomcat binaries for OS X and I was very confused 
> during the installation process. I was guided by the following 
> instruction link.
> 
> http://developer.apple.com/internet/macosx/tomcat1.html
> and
> http://developer.apple.com/internet/macosx/tomcat2.html
> (very usefull links for servlet beginners like me ;-)
> 
> now I know that the instructions are right, but something goes wrong 
> during unpacking the binaries. At the download section I found the hint 
> that there are problems with the current tar version on OS X Clients, so 
> i used the stuffit expander. My installation result was that the 
> webserver worked fine, but the JSP and Servlet Example part did not. It 
> was hard for me to find out the the problem was a missing 's' in some 
> file ending names. So I did'nt know if the problem was caused by StuffIt 
> or by the archive on your webserver. I tried the version 4.0.1 and 
> 4.0.3. They both have the same problem. Some class files have after 
> unpacking a wrong ending (.clas and not .class). So it may be usfull to 
> fix it, if it's caused by the archive, otherwise it may be usefull to 
> give an other hint for OS X user. It's a new System and I can imagine 
> that  I'm not the only newbe-one ...
> 
> I' hope the Information is usefull for you ...
> 
> best regards from germany
> 
>   dipl. Inf. Gunnar Schomaker
> 

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PGP-keys issue on Tomcat 4.0.3 (via Webmaster)

[Paulo Gaspar]

Via webmaster, please check the "Original Message" that follows.

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Erik Agsjo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 9:59 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: PGP-keys
> 
> 
> Hi.
> 
> 
> 
> I just downloaded the tomcat 4.0.3  binaries for linux (mod_jk-01.so and 
> mod_webapp.so) and decided to verify the signatures provided. They 
> checked out fine, after I added the keys from the "KEYS" file to 
> my keyring.
> 
> I would be nice if these keys were available from a keyserver, I failed 
> to find them anywhere. Also, if the keys were signed by someone else 
> than the keyowner, the point of signing the binaries would be much 
> improved. I mean, if someone has access to the distribution directory 
> and replaces the binaries with copies containing evil trojans, it would 
> be simple for that individual to replace the KEYS file and signatures as 
> well.
> 
> What is worse it that that the signature  for the tgz 
> (jakarta-tomcat-4.0.3.tar.gz) is bad. At least, that is what gpg (GnuPG) 
> 1.0.6 says.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for you time,
> Erik Agsjo
> Noptec
> 

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So, Google uses Tomcat and Apache SOAP...

[Paulo Gaspar]

http://www.beblogging.com/blog/20020417-221452

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

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Bad URL on the site...

[Paulo Gaspar]

I got this while playing Jakarta's Webmaster and he is right:

> -Original Message-
> From: Michael L. Davis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 3:41 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Your tomcat 4.0 example application is... uh...
> 
> 
> 
> non existant... the servlet is a bad link and the jsp needs to be 
> wrapped in html.
> 
> http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/tomcat-4.0-doc/appdev/sample/web/
> 
> Onward,
> Mike.
> 
> 


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

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Install bug tomcat4.0 on Mac Osx

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: Karim Qazi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 12:39 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Install bug tomcat4.0 on Mac Osx
> 
> 
> I downloaded the release jakarta-tomcat-4.0-20020303.tar.gz and when
> unpacking this release, the servlet
> examples/WEB-INF/classes/SetCharacterEncodingFilter.class
> 
> Is unpacking as SetCharacterEnclodingFilter.clas.
> 
> This is causing the examples not to function correctly.
> 
> Thought you'd like to know this.
> 
> Karim Qazi
> 

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[DOCUMENTATION ERROR] FW: The Tomcat 4 Servlet-JSP Container - Class Loader INFO

[Paulo Gaspar]

-Original Message-
From: CTP Steve Temple [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 2:57 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: The Tomcat 4 Servlet-JSP Container - Class Loader INFO


Hi,

Just a quick one, I noticed that on the following page under Quick Start the
s is missing from the end of /WEB-INF/classes

 http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/tomcat-4.0-doc/class-loader-howto.html

Thanks

Steve

--
Steve Temple
Software Engineer
CTP information management
+44 (0)1242 542271
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.ctpi.co.uk



The Tomcat 4 Servlet-JSP Container - Class Loader INFO.url
Description: Binary data

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Please check if this documentation on Tomcat 4 helps (it looks good)

[Paulo Gaspar]

I received this one via the webmaster mail and it looks interesting.
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Marty Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 3:08 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Tomcat 4 configuration and usage guide
> 
> 
> Hi. A lot of my students have had trouble setting up Tomcat 4 (ie 
> they didn't 
> go through the existing documentation carefully enough :-), so I put
> together a very hand-holding, step-by-step guide at
> http://www.moreservlets.com/Using-Tomcat-4.html
> 
> To my surprise, it has become pretty popular, with about 1,000 hits/day.
> 
> If the Tomcat-4 docs page wants to use it or link to it, feel free.
> 
> Cheers-
>   - Marty
> 
> 


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Missing CSS?

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: John D Groenveld [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 6:59 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject:
> http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/tomcat-3.3-doc/Tomcat-Workers-HowTo.htm
> l
> 
> 
> Please pass on to the documentation person.
> John
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Not Found
> The requested URL /tomcat/tomcat-3.3-doc/uguide/style.css was not 
> found on 
> this server.
> Apache/2.0.28 Server at jakarta.apache.org Port 80
> 

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Interesting claim for a Java Web Server

[Paulo Gaspar]

From:
  http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~mdw/proj/seda/index.html

  "We have implemented a number of applications using 
  Sandstorm, including Haboob, a high-performance Web 
  server that outperforms both Apache and Flash (which 
  are implemented in C) on a SPECWeb99-like benchmark."


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

http://www.krankikom.de
http://www.ruhronline.de
 

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salon.com uses Tomcat + Cocoon for some "experimental services"

[Paulo Gaspar]

Take a look at this article:
http://www.webtechniques.com/archives/2001/12/rosenberg/

>From that article:
We also have experimental services running under the Apache 
Project's Cocoon and Tomcat application servers that render 
Salon's content in XML, applying XSLT and XSP for form and 
functional purposes respectively. In the short term, this 
provides us with additional flexibility in working with 
content distribution and syndication partners. It also 
poises us for a future evolutionary transition to a dynamic, 
XML-based, content delivery model.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

http://www.krankikom.de
http://www.ruhronline.de

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RE: t3 and sun.com

[Paulo Gaspar]

Yes, but they KNOW.

And they insist a lot on how Tomcat 3.3 must keep compatibility with
the Java Servlet 2.2 and JSP 1.1 specifications, because it is the
reference implementation.

See the irony now?


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Bill Barker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 3:40 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: t3 and sun.com
>
>
> Yeah, well, but the're not really involved with the  3.3 branch.
>
> ----- Original Message -
> From: "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 4:07 PM
> Subject: RE: t3 and sun.com
>
>
> > They have slow reflexes???
> >
> > Hey, but aren't some guys from Sun working on some Tomcat version???
> > =;o)
> >
> > Have fun,
> > Paulo Gaspar
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 10:30 PM
> > >
> > >
> > > http://java.sun.com/products/servlet/download.html
> > >
> > > Only lists 3.2.3 and 4.0, what about 3.3?
> > >
> > > -jon
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> **
>
> This message is intended only for the use of the person(s) listed above
> as the intended recipient(s), and may contain information that is
> PRIVILEGED and CONFIDENTIAL.  If you are not an intended recipient,
> you may not read, copy, or distribute this message or any attachment.
> If you received this communication in error, please notify us immediately
> by e-mail and then delete all copies of this message and any attachments.
>
>
> In addition you should be aware that ordinary (unencrypted) e-mail sent
> through the Internet is not secure. Do not send confidential or sensitive
> information, such as social security numbers, account numbers, personal
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RE: t3 and sun.com

[Paulo Gaspar]

They have slow reflexes???

Hey, but aren't some guys from Sun working on some Tomcat version???
=;o)

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 10:30 PM
> 
> 
> http://java.sun.com/products/servlet/download.html
> 
> Only lists 3.2.3 and 4.0, what about 3.3?
> 
> -jon
> 

RE: [VOTE] Release Plan for Tomcat 3.3 (final release)

[Paulo Gaspar]

Considering all expressed opinions (Costin included) I think
Christopher already wrapped up the whole mess going on here in a
previous post, and I quote:
  AFAIK,  everyone is in agreement that all bug entries will be in
  one of the CLOSED states (RESOLVED, POSTPONED, or CAN'T-REPRODUCE)
  before the gold-code in _either_ tree is released. So perhaps the
  release plans should be modified to explicily state this, then we
  can all get back to the business of congratulating each other on
  our releases =)


On the state of 3.3:

I do not use any very exotic features and never came across a clear
Tomcat bug (except in the new admin pages). However I already tried
using JServ and several Tomcat 3.1.x and 3.2.x versions and my
favorite container is 3.3 since (at least) Milestone 1. I used it
for development even before M1 and I am using it on a production
server since M4.

I will never detected a whole class of bugs since I avoid a lot of
trouble by using no connectors - it is simpler to use Apache as a
Proxy and for us that is good enough.

Still, since we use 3.3, every time a Tomcat site stopped working the
problem was somewhere else (usually because the native database
connection pool stuff we were using sucks and does not recover from
network glitches and database restarts - moving to commons-dbcp now!).

OTOH:
  - With Tomcat 3.2.x we had it freezing for no clear reason;
  - With JServ we had connector related problems.


>From JServ, Tomcat 3.2.x and Tomcat 3.3, 3.3 is the only one giving
me NO run time trouble and also (by far) the easiest one to setup.

You didn't think I defended 3.3 just to nag Jon, did you?


> You know, Gaspar makes a very good point when he says that it is
> sometimes necessary to look past the somewhat ... less-than-diplomatic =)
...
> presentation, and find the heart of a Jon argument, because it
> almost always contains valuable insight and sound advice.

This is true... although I would use "quite often" instead of "almost
always".
=;o)

I already mentioned before that I learned a lot with Jon. I just keep
complaining because I would like him to make the process easier.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Christopher Cain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 8:42 AM
>
>
> Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
>
> > On Mon, 10 Sep 2001, Christopher Cain wrote:
> >
> > > > I don't know what 'long enough' means, my impression is that we had
> > a
> > > > far too long release cycle for 3.3 already.
> > >
> > > Don't worry Costin, he doesn't really know what it means either :)
> >
> > Well, giving the bug reports he filled so far - he seems to know very
> > well
> > what we're talking about, so even if he's not a commiter, his -1
> > matters
> > more than Jon's ( at least for me ).
>
> You know, Gaspar makes a very good point when he says that it is
> sometimes
> necessary to look past the somewhat ... less-than-diplomatic =) ...
> presentation, and find the heart of a Jon argument, because it
> almost always
> contains valuable insight and sound advice. Perhaps the -1 was a
> little heavy-
> handed, but concerns about the state of bugzilla when a product
> ships is a
> reasonable point of view that at least deserves your attention.
> To dismiss what
> he says because it is not packaged with a shiny bow, or because
> you two do not
> get along, is to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
>
> > Costin
> >
> > ( BTW, thanks again William for helping with the test of tomcat and
> > for
> > the bug reports )
>
> And I, too, think that William deserves a great deal of thanks
> for the time and
> energy he invests in testing Tomcat and filling out bug reports.
> That's just as
> vital to the success of the project as anything you and I do, in
> my opinion.
>
> Perhaps I did come down a little hard, but I take two things very
> seriously:
> Tomcat's reputation as a world-class engine, and the reputation
> of my fellow
> developers and the people I call friends. By implying that 3.3 was being
> released prematurely for political reasons, Mr. Barker was
> treading dangerously
> close to insulting both. Since he decided not to offer any further
> clarification or explanation on what he meant by his statements,
> I don't know
> if it was an intentional accusation, an unfortunate choice of
> words, or what.
>
> But apparently I am the only one who took offense, so in the
> spirit of all of
> this unprecidented cooperation and mutual respect, I'll shut up
> now. Hell, 3.3
> isn't even my primary development tree (although I do try and
> port my patches
> there on 

RE: [VOTE] Bug Notification E-Mails - OT

[Paulo Gaspar]

I don't want you running for nothing so...

Your problem is:
 - When you are wrong, you are wrong;
 - When you are right, you still don't know how to prove it.


OTHO, you always make such a noise protesting that you are right that, 
eventually, if you really are right, someone with better communication 
skills ends up motivated to properly explain why you are right in a 
proper way... just to have peace back... and when that happens I learn 
something.


Have fun,
Paulo

P.S.: I have to confess that, obviously, you usually don't make all 
  the noise alone by yourself.


> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 9:47 PM
> To: tomcat-dev
> Subject: Re: [VOTE] Bug Notification E-Mails
> 
> 
> I just have to say that it is cute how all of you get your panties into a
> wad when I suggest something and then end up going with my original
> suggestion.
> 
> :-)
> 
> -jon (runs for cover)
> 

RE: [VOTE] Bug Notification E-Mails

[Paulo Gaspar]

> *sigh* ... ever the diplomat ;-)

The only sure things in life:
  death, taxes and Jon's "guerilla diplomacy".

=;o)

Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Christopher Cain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 9:58 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [VOTE] Bug Notification E-Mails
>
>
>
> Jon Stevens wrote:
> > I just have to say that it is cute how all of you get your
> panties into a
> > wad when I suggest something and then end up going with my original
> > suggestion.
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > -jon (runs for cover)
> >
>
> *sigh* ... ever the diplomat ;-)
>
> - Christopher
>
> /**
>   * Pleurez, pleurez, mes yeux, et fondez vous en eau!
>   * La moitié de ma vie a mis l'autre au tombeau.
>   *---Corneille
>   */
>

RE: [VOTE] Bug Notification E-Mails

[Paulo Gaspar]

Even the pushy non voting bastard (me) agrees that something should
come to the dev list.

I was pushing the daily digest thing coming to dev, but after 
Christopher rationale (it takes work doing it + don't ask what you 
won't do) I sure agree that the practical solution is to have all 
the bugs coming to tomcat-dev. 

Meaning: I really changed my mind and I now think that the initial 
vote was quite ok.

Just my 2 cents.


Have fun,
Paulo


> -Original Message-
> From: Pier Fumagalli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 9:22 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [VOTE] Bug Notification E-Mails
> 
> 
> "Remy Maucherat" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> >> [ ] +1 - I want all messages to a new tomcat-bugs mailing list
> >> [X] -1 - I want all messages to tomcat-dev
> > 
> > Rationale is: I want other developers to look at the 
> outstanding bugs, and
> > tomcat-dev is the dev list for Tomcat, so I don't see the point 
> of having
> > another list.
> 
> Agree with Remy: -1
> 
> Pier
> 

RE: [VOTE] Bug Notification E-Mails

[Paulo Gaspar]

You are right Christopher.

Besides the (a bit sarcastic[*]) sense of humor and besides knowing some
Latin expressions, you also make a lot of sense.
=:o)

Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me. (Seriously!)


Have fun,
Paulo

[*] Which is a "plus".


> -Original Message-
> From: Christopher Cain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 6:02 PM
>
>
> There were a few reasons that I didn't include a "separate mailing list"
> option in the vote. There seemed to be more a little more support for
> just having them come here to the dev list, and it's hard to effectively
> call a vote on three options instead of two, so I picked the one that
> would be more likely to pass.
>
> Also, while I might technically have the ability to call for a vote on
> anything, it's bad form to call a vote on something that you personally
> cannot make happen. Since I do not have the ability to set up a new
> mailing list, it would be the equivalent of me forcing more mailing list
> duties on Pier.
>
> Basically, I did the most that I could do. The only people who could
> realistically called for a vote on a new mailing list are Jon (who isn't
> in favor of it), Pier (who I think is fed up with the whole business at
> this point :), and Craig (who didn't say one way or the other). As I
> said, I don't personally care how they get into my inbox, so long as
> they do. So in calling a vote, I simply played the percentages.
>
> Incidentally, we miss you over, Paulo ;-)
>
> - Christopher
>
> /**
>   * Pleurez, pleurez, mes yeux, et fondez vous en eau!
>   * La moitié de ma vie a mis l'autre au tombeau.
>   *---Corneille
>   */
>
> Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> > Christopher,
> >
> >
> > Since you are the VOTE proponent, could you take a look at my previous
> > suggestion:
> >   - having a "tomcat-bugs" mailing list;
> >   - having a _daily digest_ to "tomcat-dev" (which should refer the
> > existence of the bugs list).
> >
> > It was made clear along this discussion that BUG messages were removed
> > because people complained about clutter.
> >
> > The fact that they are faced as clutter by many defeats the idea of
> > getting more eye balls posting them all one by one - people will "jump
> > over" and ignore them just as everybody does to advertising banners.
> >
> >
> > The daily bug digest + bug list still sounds like a nice compromise to
> > me. I think that it is the best way to get more eye balls.
> >
> >
> > Anyway, I know I would prefer it this way, but I have no Karma to do
> > anything about that besides noise.
> >
> >
> > Thanks and have fun,
> > Paulo Gaspar
> >
> >
> >
> >>-Original Message-
> >>From: Christopher Cain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >>Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 9:08 AM
> >>
> >>
> >>I'm going to go ahead and call this, in the name of peace and
> >>brotherhood :)
> >>
> >>-
> >>
> >>Whenever a bug is entered or modified on Nagoya Bugzilla, should
> >>Tomcat-Dev
> >>receive a copy of the automatic e-mail notification sent to the
> >>"assigned"
> >>developer?
> >>
> >>[] +1 Tomcat-Dev should definitely be CC'ed a copy of the notifications
> >>[] +0 Sure, why not
> >>[] -0 I don't really care to see them, but I won't complain if I do :)
> >>[] -1 Leave it alone (explain)
> >>
> >>
> >>- Christopher
> >>
> >>/**
> >> * Pleurez, pleurez, mes yeux, et fondez vous en eau!
> >> * La moitié de ma vie a mis l'autre au tombeau.
> >> *---Corneille
> >> */
>

RE: [VOTE] Bug Notification E-Mails

[Paulo Gaspar]

Christopher,


Since you are the VOTE proponent, could you take a look at my previous
suggestion:
  - having a "tomcat-bugs" mailing list;
  - having a _daily digest_ to "tomcat-dev" (which should refer the
existence of the bugs list).

It was made clear along this discussion that BUG messages were removed
because people complained about clutter.

The fact that they are faced as clutter by many defeats the idea of
getting more eye balls posting them all one by one - people will "jump
over" and ignore them just as everybody does to advertising banners.


The daily bug digest + bug list still sounds like a nice compromise to
me. I think that it is the best way to get more eye balls.


Anyway, I know I would prefer it this way, but I have no Karma to do
anything about that besides noise.


Thanks and have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Christopher Cain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 9:08 AM
>
>
> I'm going to go ahead and call this, in the name of peace and
> brotherhood :)
>
> -
>
> Whenever a bug is entered or modified on Nagoya Bugzilla, should
> Tomcat-Dev
> receive a copy of the automatic e-mail notification sent to the
> "assigned"
> developer?
>
> [] +1 Tomcat-Dev should definitely be CC'ed a copy of the notifications
> [] +0 Sure, why not
> [] -0 I don't really care to see them, but I won't complain if I do :)
> [] -1 Leave it alone (explain)
>
>
> - Christopher
>
> /**
>  * Pleurez, pleurez, mes yeux, et fondez vous en eau!
>  * La moitié de ma vie a mis l'autre au tombeau.
>  *---Corneille
>  */
>

RE: Bug reports

[Paulo Gaspar]

> Ok, I agree with you, maybe "responsible" is the wrong word... I have no
> problems in moving all emails to the list (as I get a copy of each single
> mail bugzilla sends). 

Why not having a "tomcat-bugs" mailling list then?
And then, maybe a daily digest to "tomcat-dev", just to make everybody 
aware (both of the bugs and of the existence of the "tomcat-bugs" list).

Besides that you can - of course - send bug messages to individuals, 
depending on their scope.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

P.S.: This solution looks so simple that I feel I am missing something.


> -Original Message-
> From: Pier Fumagalli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 3:49 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Bug reports
> 
> 
> "Jon Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > on 9/9/01 5:46 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> >> "Jon Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> I think that new bug reports should go to the tomcat-dev 
> mailing list. Not
> >>> to individuals.
> >>> 
> >>> Edit component ...  Initial owner
> >>> Catalina[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>> Connectors  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>> Jasper  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>> Tester  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>> Unknown [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>> Webapps [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> 
> >> I don't agree... Having them assigned to a particular 
> developer, makes it
> >> easy to see who's actually "responsible" for a particular component
> > 
> > When did only one person become responsible for a particular 
> component? I
> > thought (in true OSS fashion) it was all members of the project are
> > responsible for whatever they want.
> 
> When you stopped fixing my bugs in the WebApp module :) :) :)
> 
> > I'm thinking beyond just Tomcat, but all OSS projects on Jakarta.
> 
> Ok, I agree with you, maybe "responsible" is the wrong word... I have no
> problems in moving all emails to the list (as I get a copy of each single
> mail bugzilla sends). Sending mails to individuals IMO is better 
> because the
> people listed there are the ones who can see "on the spot" if a 
> bug is valid
> or not, who can take immediate action, or not...
> 
> If this list wants to be cluttered with mails about bugs, let's 
> just do the
> change (but I remember that when I set up bugzilla, most didn't 
> want to see
> them, and that's why we changed)...
> 
> BTW, it's not only TC4 which does that, most of the projects on BugZilla
> (both Jakarta and XML) follow that scheme... It might be "more 
> appropriate"
> to move this discussion to general@jakarta and [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> >> , and
> >> given that the weekly bug-report now gets to the mailing list, 
> I believe
> >> that the current setup is right...
> > 
> > This helps, but is still not adequate IMHO.
> 
> How isn't it adequate? (Sometimes I wish not to do shit, like the 
> scripts to
> send automatic email about bugs, so that people will not start 
> complaining)
> 
> Pier
> 

RE: Tomcat 3.3 contextAdmin issues

[Paulo Gaspar]

Answer inline:

> -Original Message-
> From: Costin Manolache [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 8:29 PM
> 
> On 18 Aug 2001 19:56:33 +0200, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > The first two things that are really confusing are:
> > - the existence of 2 lines of very similar classes 
> >   (e.g.: TomcatAdmin and ContextAdmin) in the "tadm"
> >   package at "webapps\admin\WEB-INF\classes\tadm";
> 
> Well, TomcatAdmin is the first tag I wrote, and it did a lot of things.
> Too many, actually, so I started to split it. ContextAdmin will focus on
> context tasks, TomcatAdmin for generic tomcat.
> 
> Also, TomcatAdmin declares the "ContextManager" scripting variable, and
> that's a problem to be fixed - you can have only one  in a
> page right now. 
 
Yes, I was thinking the same about that variable. I had to go around that
to improvise a context restart (by using "<% { %>" and "<% } %>").

Your explanation sure helps understanding what functionality is intended
for each tag. I can take a look at that too. It is easier for me to 
understand the taglibs than the rest of Tomcat.
=;o)
 
> > - and the fact that "restart.jsp" does not work as 
> >   expected producing duplicate entries in the list 
> >   presented by "contextList.jsp".
> 
> That's a bug. I'll take a look, I wrote restart.jsp mostly as a test -
> to make sure all modules are cleaning up after themself ( i.e. you do
> restart.jsp few times and check the thread count, memory use, etc - it
> should stay constant ). If some contexts are not removed - that must be
> fixed ( please add a bug so I'll remember ).

I will try (adding the bug).
 
> > Looking at "org.apache.tomcat.core.ContextManager" did 
> > not help a lot since its comments are not very clear
> > either, as is the case of its "shutdown()" method where
> > comments make me doubt about how cleanup should be done.
> 
> Ok, what's not clear :-) ? As you know, I'm not very good at docs, but
> if you ask specific questions I may be able to answer ( and fix the
> comments along the way ).  

No one seems to be very good at docs on Tomcat. =;o)

In this case I am talking about the comments in the method
org.apache.tomcat.core.ContextManager.shutdown()

In this method's source code there are 2 blocks of cleanup code that 
were commented out. The fact that they were not just removed and the 
nature of a comment:
  "remove the modules ( XXX do we need that ? )"
before one of those blocks makes me wonder how sure it is that they
are correct.


> > This restart thing probably has some relation with the
> > work Costin is doing on "EmbededTomcat" - maybe the 
> > information missing is the same.
> 
> It has some relation, in the sense EmbeddedTomcat must be able to
> restart ( and it's using the same calls as restart.jsp ).

Yes, the cleanup issues are related.


Specific questions, besides the above "ContextManager.shutdown()" 
issue:
 - Why is it possible to add 2 or more contexts with the same name
   and base path? It is a cleanup issue that this happens with the 
   "restart.jsp" code, but shouldn't this kind of duplication also 
   be prevented?
 - To make a hot restart, it looks like modules should be restarted
   too. Is this correct?
 - When using "restart.jsp", previously removed contexts (using the
   admin pages) were not added back. Why?
 - Where are existing contexts detected and loaded? Is it on a 
   module? And if yes, then which?

As you see from the above questions, I still ignore a lot.


Thanks a lot for your attention on this, Costin.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

Tomcat 3.3 contextAdmin issues

[Paulo Gaspar]

Hi,


I have been trying to improve a bit on the "admin" 
application, especially on the "contextAdmin" bit,
tweaking its web pages/JSPs in order to add functionality
and ease of use.

I am especially interested on making it easier to restart
individual applications, deploy or redeploy new 
applications and restart the whole container trough this
web interface.

The first two things that are really confusing are:
- the existence of 2 lines of very similar classes 
  (e.g.: TomcatAdmin and ContextAdmin) in the "tadm"
  package at "webapps\admin\WEB-INF\classes\tadm";
- and the fact that "restart.jsp" does not work as 
  expected producing duplicate entries in the list 
  presented by "contextList.jsp".
  
Looking at "org.apache.tomcat.core.ContextManager" did 
not help a lot since its comments are not very clear
either, as is the case of its "shutdown()" method where
comments make me doubt about how cleanup should be done.


Can someone help me here?

I am willing to help improving the admin application and
I have a lot of selfish motives to do it, but I need 
some pointers in order to understand how it should work.

This restart thing probably has some relation with the
work Costin is doing on "EmbededTomcat" - maybe the 
information missing is the same.


Thanks and have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

RE: [PROPOSAL] Deprecation of committers...

[Paulo Gaspar]

LOL

Finally someone with a decent sense of humor on this list!
(And I don't mind even when I am the target.)

Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Christopher Cain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 7:37 AM
> 
> Kanan:
> 
> You'll have to forgive Pier, he's a little grumpy this week (not 
> that we don't 
> love him anyway) =)
> 
> What is being discussed is whether or not to remove inactive 
> developers from 
> the server where the source code resides. It doesn't affect the 
> mailing lists 
> in any way; they just need to remove some old logins from the 
> internal servers 
> where the developers store the project code.
> 
> We would never dream of depriving anyone of the circus that is 
> the dev mailing 
> list. ;-)
> 
> - Christopher
> 
> Quoting "Pier P. Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> 
> > Kanan Khokhani at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > I am a meber of the list but not a commiter.
> > > I have never posted any messages so far, but i
> > > regularly(almost everyday)check messages from this
> > > list. Do you plan to deprecate members like me too??
> > 
> > Go and read this one  it
> > explains
> > how things are working...
> > 
> > Pier
> 

RE: Velocity and JSP speed testing...

[Paulo Gaspar]

> He is over on the Velocity lists being a pain in the ass still. :-)
>
> I just love him.

I love you too Jon.


> Our last flame war was about me wanting to get rid of the dynamic
> logging in
> Velocity and just make a dependency on Log4J. Eventually, I think he just
> gave up. Now that Ceki has the 25k .jar file, it is no contest.

Yes, after a few servings of Jon's usual "delicate" approach, Jason van
Zyl made a single post where he made sense of it all.

Sometimes Jon is right - he just has some trouble explaining it.
(He tends to explode something in the process.)
=;o)


Have fun,
Paulo


> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 6:31 AM
>
>
> on 8/6/01 9:24 PM, "Christopher Cain" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Totally OT, bandwidth-wasting, irrelevant musings P.S. ...
> >
> > Where did that Paulo Gaspar cat go? That guy was always
> interesting in a flame
> > war, especially with Jon involved. Man ... dude did NOT like
> Jon, but he sure
> > loved Velocity. I wonder he went ... I really miss those days,
> back when we
> > were all so young and innocent ... it was a simpler time ;-)
> >
> > Anyway, Jon, I always thought that you should have used some of
> those flame
> > posts from Gaspar for some really sweet Velocity advocacy,
> maybe in your mag
> > articles and web site and stuff. I can hardly think of a more compelling
> > advertisement for Velocity than one of those, "Jon is in
> insufferable ass, but
> > I wouldn't use any other solution than Velocity." That speaks volumes.
> >
> > I really do miss that Gaspar guy though ... we liked him :-)
> >
> > - Christopher
>
> He is over on the Velocity lists being a pain in the ass still. :-)
>
> I just love him.
>
> Our last flame war was about me wanting to get rid of the dynamic
> logging in
> Velocity and just make a dependency on Log4J. Eventually, I think he just
> gave up. Now that Ceki has the 25k .jar file, it is no contest.
>
> :-)
>
> p.s. Below is a recent privately sent email that I got about the
> JDJ article
> I wrote...name/company removed to protect this fine enlightened
> individual.
> :-)
>
> -jon
>

RE: Velocity and JSP speed testing...

[Paulo Gaspar]

Sorry man, I can't make a really good flame war when I agree 
with Jon.

But there is still hope: we still flame each other from time 
to time (even if on other lists). Nothing as blazing than that
one you remember, but still...
=:o)


Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Christopher Cain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 6:24 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Velocity and JSP speed testing...
> 
> 
> Totally OT, bandwidth-wasting, irrelevant musings P.S. ...
> 
> Where did that Paulo Gaspar cat go? That guy was always 
> interesting in a flame 
> war, especially with Jon involved. Man ... dude did NOT like Jon, 
> but he sure 
> loved Velocity. I wonder he went ... I really miss those days, 
> back when we 
> were all so young and innocent ... it was a simpler time ;-)
> 
> Anyway, Jon, I always thought that you should have used some of 
> those flame 
> posts from Gaspar for some really sweet Velocity advocacy, maybe 
> in your mag 
> articles and web site and stuff. I can hardly think of a more compelling 
> advertisement for Velocity than one of those, "Jon is in 
> insufferable ass, but 
> I wouldn't use any other solution than Velocity." That speaks volumes.
> 
> I really do miss that Gaspar guy though ... we liked him :-)
> 
> - Christopher
> 

RE: jsp compacter to be released

[Paulo Gaspar]

Triming heading and trailing whitespace for each line of text does (most of)
the trick with very minimal code.

I am doing that to Velocity templates.

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Carlos Gaston Alvarez [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 6:25 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: jsp compacter to be released
>
>
> Hi there,
>
> I have the jsp compacter running and now I am doing the documentation.
> It is a reader that compact the jsps. It can also compact html.
> It works by taking out the blank spaces of html and
> javascript. So a jsp
> like this
>
> 
>
>
>
>   <!--
>alert( "<%= message %>" );
>-->
> 
>
>
> 
>
> will become something like:
>
> 
> <!--
> alert( "<%= message %>" );
> -->
> 
>
> My stimates is that it 'compacts' about a 10% ratio.
>
> My original idea was to integrate it with tomcat so at load time
> of the jsp
> file it compacts it so the source code is generated over
> 'compacted' code. I
> will do it, but it will take me some time. I have a plan of action.
>
> 1 - release it as stand alone aplication.
> 2 - release it as tag library.
> 3 - integrate it with jasper.
> 4 -  ¿¿include another language??
>
> Step one is done.
>
> Step two needs the tag code to be optimized (for not creating so many
> objects).
>
> Step three ... well I will need some guidance. Anyway, you should
> be accord.
> And of course, it should have configuration so you can turn it on only if
> you want to and in the files that you want it.
>
> Step four  ¿velocity?
>
>
> I was thinking of sending the source at the list, it is about 20K zipped.
> Please, I need a committer to tell me wath to do.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Gaston
>

RE: Jasper performance/3.3 tag pooling (XSLT)

[Paulo Gaspar]

Hi Costin,

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 10:20 AM
>
> ...
>
> I'm working on a refactoring of jasper, and "easy to read" is a big
> priority. It's moving a bit slower than I expected - now I'm back on
> planning stage after hearing so much bad things about using XSLT :-) But I
> think there are ways to make ( almost ) everyone happy.
>
> ...

Considering your day job, I already had to change my "diagnostic" from
"you don't know what you are messing with" to "you know too much about
XSLT and then you think it is easy for everybody".

Still, I do not believe that using XSLT is a good idea. It goes a bit
against your own motivation of making Jasper more readable to make the
entry level lower for potential contributors.

Besides learning about Jasper, many will have to learn about XSLT. And
XSLT is not that easy to grasp. Worse, it is elusive - one tends to
think to have it all figured out before time, and then fall easy prey
of really big traps.


I am not going to argue with you about the CPU cost issue, since your
POV seems to be that everybody should manually compile JSPs for
production and that developers have good enough machines anyway.

We could start another holly war on this one, but I do not have the
motivation. I think that many people prefer doing it without manual
compilation, but we better just agree to disagree on that.


Anyway, for me, the main issue is the complexity of XSLT being an
obstacle for Jasper's code readability/maintenance.


In case you are wondering, I do not intend to use JSP for presentation
(I keep that Velocity is better at that) but I still think it as a lot
of potential as a server side scripting mechanism, with taglibs
providing an interesting way of defining simple dialects for common
problems and embedded Java filling the gaps. For simple logic, it looks
to have potential.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

RE: Tomcat Interceptors - proof read, anyone?

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: Antony Bowesman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 7:47 AM
> 
> Hi Filip,
> 
> Filip Hanik wrote:
> > 
> > Hi,
> > I'm currently part of a project that is writing an open source
> > Tomcat book, http://sourceforge.net/projects/tomcatbook.
> > 
> > ...
> > 
>
> ...
>
> Keep going!  Tomcat is sorely lacking good documentation.
> ...

Amen!

Paulo Gaspar

RE: Jasper performance

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: Eduardo Pelegri-Llopart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 12:01 AM
> 
> (sorry for the response lag, unfortunatly I don't read tomcat very
> frequently)
> 
>...
>
> * Using XSTL for templating...
> 
> Like Jon and some others, I think that XSTL is a bit too complicated
> (and memory expensive) to be my favorite templating mechanism.  But it
> is a widely used as a transformation mechanism.  Some thoughts on the
> role of XML, JSP & XSLT at
> http://java.sun.com/products/jsp/html/JSPXML.html
> 

This follown-the-bunch atitude with XSLT and other technologies, always 
reminds me of lemmings.
=;o)

> ...

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

RE: Jasper performance - JMX

[Paulo Gaspar]

> > BTW, I am not the first person talking about JMX in this list.
>
> JMX is great - I like it a lot, it can be added easily by a module - but I
> don't think it's a big priority for now. After 3.3 is released we can
> discuss new features as add-on modules ( I have a few ).
>
> Costin
>

On priorities: of course!

Have fun,
Paulo

RE: Jasper performance - JMX

[Paulo Gaspar]

In the case of DoS, I don't believe a bit on "trusted tags" and such
stuff. Why monitoring the tags at all if "while(true)" is so easy.

I mean, the front door is wide open, why care about that little
window?

The only way to close everything is by monitoring the Servlets and
allow setting some limitation on time per request. And that does not
look so hard to do since Servlets are passive entities (meaning
that they do NOT call Tomcat, Tomcat calls them) and their basic
implementation (base class) belongs to Tomcat.

The standard way to do it would be by instrumenting the Servlets,
either directly or with a wrapper using JMX. JMX is not a J2EE
exclusive and it is not that complex either.

Additional advantages of implementing JMX in Tomcat:
 - Collecting other statistics;
 - Diagnostics;
 - Changing settings on the fly;
 - etc.

BTW, I am not the first person talking about JMX in this list.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 3:02 AM
>
>
> On Thu, 17 May 2001, Glenn Nielsen wrote:
>
> > > I guess he's refering to DOS attacks ( like a while(true); in
> java code
> > > or allocating lots of memory ).
> >
> > You won't have much of a templating language if you don't allow some
> > sort of looping.  Kind of hard to restrict that.
>
> True, but if you have a set of "trusted" tags, including looping tags, and
> no "untrusted" code except the one that calls the tags you could do a lot
> to control the resources.
>
> For example the tags ( or jasper generated code ) could check for time
> execution limits, or how many resources are allocated.
>
>
> > It would be nice if self monitoring were built into Tomcat so
> sysads could
> > track statistics on performance of the JVM, Tomcat in general,
> and individual
> > servlets/JSP's.  Even setting thresholds when automated email
> notifications
> > could be done.  Lets give sysadmins the information they need, then they
> > can take action against problem users.
>
> Yes, that would be an interesting hack..
>
> I was thinking about JPDA - it would be possible to check the memory use
> for each thread, associate it with the user code. Also, it is possible to
> store the time when entering/exiting user code, and have a deamon thread
> check if any thread is spending too much time.
>
> ( the time monitoring part can be done without jpda - but to monitor the
> memory I don't know other solution ).
>
> ( well, I know - I remember a certain tool that was used to manipluate
> bytecodes and add "instrumentation" before all allocations - but that's
> far too difficult for the time we have available ).
>
>
> > I still think that using the SecurityManager implementation in
> Tomcat with a
> > well tuned security polciy can provide one of the most secure
> environments
> > available for running web based applications. This is just my opinion,
> > feel free to try and convince me some other technology is more secure.
>
> I'll not even try :-)
>
> You're right, but there are some things that we could add to also control
> some resource usage ( memory and cpu time ).
>
> Costin
>

RE: Jasper performance

[Paulo Gaspar]

> All Velocity has is a #foreach. This is a fully functional 
> looping construct
> that prevents you from screwing things up and still gets the job done.

On the #foreach and DoS issues, I would use "makes it harder" instead 
of "prevents" in . 

But it also makes "much harder" to mix logic and presentation too.

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 2:52 AM
> 
> 
> on 5/17/01 5:21 PM, "Glenn Nielsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > You won't have much of a templating language if you don't allow some
> > sort of looping.  Kind of hard to restrict that.
> 
> All Velocity has is a #foreach. This is a fully functional 
> looping construct
> that prevents you from screwing things up and still gets the job done.
> 
> -jon

RE: Jasper performance

[Paulo Gaspar]

> There is another solution - to generate the map ( java line number ->
> JSP source line number). This is exactly how the .class annotation works,
> mapping bytecode to java source number. And will allow you to see both
> informations, and it's quite clean.

That sounds very nice. How does it work?
Where/how do you feed the map file?

(Just some documentation pointers to whatever feature you use would do.)


Thanks,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 9:24 AM
>
>
> On Thu, 17 May 2001, Christopher Kirk wrote:
>
> >
> > >From my view, the problem with JSP->Java->Class isn't performance its
> > debugging. JSP is hard to work with when you make a mistake,
> very often the
> > error message is less than helpful. A very large step in
> improving this is
> > by making the line number given by the stack trace match the
> line numbers of
> > the JSP page. This currently is not the case because of the intermediate
> > step of a java file. It would be beneficial to compile JSP
> straight to Java,
> > complete with debugging information included in the class file.
>
> Yes, debugging is a problem in the current jasper implementation. One
> solution, as you mentioned, is to "hack" the class to include line numbers
> that match the JSP file ( the line number is an annotation in the class ).
>
> There is another solution - to generate the map ( java line number ->
> JSP source line number). This is exactly how the .class annotation works,
> mapping bytecode to java source number. And will allow you to see both
> informations, and it's quite clean.
>
> I'm not an expert in debugging, but that sound like a reasonable solution.
> You'll have to wait a bit for the implementation - I'm still fighting
> with cleaning and merging the runtime.
>
> Costin
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > - Chris.
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Carlos Gaston Alvarez [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: 17 May 2001 12:51
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: RE: Jasper performance
> > >
> > >
> > > I dont know if I really understood. You (some) are
> > > thinking to compile a
> > > jsp using xslt. I didnt know that that was possible. I mean,
> > > can a jsp be
> > > loaded as a dom object? I think that it cannot because a nice
> > > guy can write
> > > some code like <% out.writeln(""); %> and that is, it
> > > is not more xml
> > > compliant. (please tellme if I am wrong).
> > > If the problem is the compilation time I can hardly
> > > believe that we can
> > > do something faster that a java compiler. Not because we dont have the
> > > skill, but because there are groups working in this kind of
> > > implementations.
> > > We should be blindly proud to think out compiler would be faster than
> > > theirs. Also, I consider that a waste of time.
> > > Let me do some guessing. I know, I should be reading the
> > > code, but I
> > > have been realy overloaded for the last months. Lets see if I have
> > > understood the problem.
> > > Saving a file for compilation is slow. So we need a
> > > faster solution.
> > > But, why is it slow?
> > > It sounds like we are saving the .java in file and then invoking a
> > > javacc process. The new process needs loads the compiler
> > > classes, compiles
> > > them (?) and then compiles our .java source.
> > > If we could have the compiler just loaded on our own
> > > memory space, we
> > > could invoke it saving the loading compiling (?) time. We
> > > could also send
> > > the .java 'file' in memory and expect the .class 'file' also
> > > in memory.
> > > Yes, may be we need some modifications in the compiler,
> > > but as part of
> > > the apache project we are at a good position for asking it an
> > > having a good
> > > answer.
> > >
> > > Chau,
> > >
> > > Gaston
> > >
> > > ps: sorry for doing so much guessing but next month I will
> > > have much more
> > > time.
> > > ps
> > >
> >
> >
> > -
> > This e-mail is intended only for the addressee(s) named above. It
> > may contain confidential or privileged information and if you are
> > not the intended addressee you are not  authorized  to  disclose,
> > copy, distribute or place any reliance on it  whatsoever  and  we
> > request that you inform our  postmaster ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) that
> > you have received this e-mail. Any attachment(s) to this  message
> > has been checked for viruses, but please rely on your  own  virus
> > checker and procedures. If you contact  us  by  e-mail,  we  will
> > store your name and address to facilitate communications.
> > -
> >
>

RE: Jasper performance

[Paulo Gaspar]

Even less GPL (commercial) but still for free, not so clumsy and with a
better GUI and Debugger... Borland's JBuilder 4 Foundation.
=:o)

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Kaneda K [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 3:55 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Jasper performance
>
>
> I agree with you, So I'll suggest you Forte IE, which has a great
> debugger.
> that allow you to trace exception form the stack to the class,
> then to the
> original source code.
>
>   It also allow break point, which is the least.
>
> The only regrets about this tools :
>   - need a big computer (600mz and more then 256 Mo, it's great with 512)
>   - not GPL
>
> At 14:17 17/05/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>
> > >From my view, the problem with JSP->Java->Class isn't performance its
> >debugging. JSP is hard to work with when you make a mistake,
> very often the
> >error message is less than helpful. A very large step in
> improving this is
> >by making the line number given by the stack trace match the
> line numbers of
> >the JSP page. This currently is not the case because of the intermediate
> >step of a java file. It would be beneficial to compile JSP
> straight to Java,
> >complete with debugging information included in the class file.
> >
> >- Chris.
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Carlos Gaston Alvarez [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: 17 May 2001 12:51
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: RE: Jasper performance
> > >
> > >
> > > I dont know if I really understood. You (some) are
> > > thinking to compile a
> > > jsp using xslt. I didnt know that that was possible. I mean,
> > > can a jsp be
> > > loaded as a dom object? I think that it cannot because a nice
> > > guy can write
> > > some code like <% out.writeln(""); %> and that is, it
> > > is not more xml
> > > compliant. (please tellme if I am wrong).
> > > If the problem is the compilation time I can hardly
> > > believe that we can
> > > do something faster that a java compiler. Not because we dont have the
> > > skill, but because there are groups working in this kind of
> > > implementations.
> > > We should be blindly proud to think out compiler would be faster than
> > > theirs. Also, I consider that a waste of time.
> > > Let me do some guessing. I know, I should be reading the
> > > code, but I
> > > have been realy overloaded for the last months. Lets see if I have
> > > understood the problem.
> > > Saving a file for compilation is slow. So we need a
> > > faster solution.
> > > But, why is it slow?
> > > It sounds like we are saving the .java in file and then invoking a
> > > javacc process. The new process needs loads the compiler
> > > classes, compiles
> > > them (?) and then compiles our .java source.
> > > If we could have the compiler just loaded on our own
> > > memory space, we
> > > could invoke it saving the loading compiling (?) time. We
> > > could also send
> > > the .java 'file' in memory and expect the .class 'file' also
> > > in memory.
> > > Yes, may be we need some modifications in the compiler,
> > > but as part of
> > > the apache project we are at a good position for asking it an
> > > having a good
> > > answer.
> > >
> > > Chau,
> > >
> > > Gaston
> > >
> > > ps: sorry for doing so much guessing but next month I will
> > > have much more
> > > time.
> > > ps
> > >
> >
> >
> >-
> >This e-mail is intended only for the addressee(s) named above. It
> >may contain confidential or privileged information and if you are
> >not the intended addressee you are not  authorized  to  disclose,
> >copy, distribute or place any reliance on it  whatsoever  and  we
> >request that you inform our  postmaster ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) that
> >you have received this e-mail. Any attachment(s) to this  message
> >has been checked for viruses, but please rely on your  own  virus
> >checker and procedures. If you contact  us  by  e-mail,  we  will
> >store your name and address to facilitate communications.
> >-
>

RE: Jasper performance

[Paulo Gaspar]

Answer inline:

> -Original Message-
> From: Christopher Kirk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 3:17 PM
>
> >From my view, the problem with JSP->Java->Class isn't performance its
> debugging. JSP is hard to work with when you make a mistake, very
> often the
> error message is less than helpful. A very large step in improving this is
> by making the line number given by the stack trace match the line
> numbers of
> the JSP page. This currently is not the case because of the intermediate
> step of a java file.

You still can take a look at the intermediate java file to understand what
is going on. It is not trivial, but at least it makes clear if the bug is in
your code or on Jasper's.

Anyway, Jasper sure could probably be improved to give good enough
information
about JSP location of the source of an exception... and you could help
implementing that.


> It would be beneficial to compile JSP
> straight to Java,
> complete with debugging information included in the class file.

There are two problems with that approach:
 1) The technical complexity of such project (even using tools like BCEL);
 2) Then it would be harder for you to find out if an exception would be
caused by some bug in your code or in Jasper's code.

Anyway, you can also contribute to such thing. Some pointers that can
help you starting:

 - You can find the above referred BCEL at
 http://bcel.sourceforge.net/

 - You can check Rhino Javascript's compiler on how do they directly
   compile something (javascript in this case) into Java Bytecode:
 http://www.mozilla.org/rhino/

 - Maybe Go's Tea template compiler would be a closer match for JSP:
 http://opensource.go.com/


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


>
> - Chris.
>
> ...

RE: Jasper performance

[Paulo Gaspar]

answer inline...

> -Original Message-
> From: Carlos Gaston Alvarez [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 1:51 PM
>
> I don't know if I really understood. You (some) are thinking
> to compile a
> jsp using xslt. I didnt know that that was possible. I mean, can a jsp be
> loaded as a dom object? I think that it cannot because a nice guy
> can write
> some code like <% out.writeln(""); %> and that is, it is
> not more xml
> compliant. (please tellme if I am wrong).

Nops. The XSLT would just be the way to implement code templates for
the java code generation step of compiling a JSP.

(And the "nice guy" thing would not be a problem it was the other
way since that text could be encoded to become valid XML.)


> If the problem is the compilation time I can hardly believe
> that we can
> do something faster that a java compiler. Not because we dont have the
> skill, but because there are groups working in this kind of
> implementations.
> We should be blindly proud to think out compiler would be faster than
> theirs. Also, I consider that a waste of time.

Nothing like that. But Java Bytecode generation would probably be faster,
not because we would be able to make the most performant compiler in the
world, but because a lot of I/O operations would be saved (writing the java
code, calling/loading the compiler, the compiler producing the output
class file, loading the class file from disk).

> Let me do some guessing. I know, I should be reading the code, but I
> have been realy overloaded for the last months. Lets see if I have
> understood the problem.

Welcome to the club. But it helps if you follow the list.

> Saving a file for compilation is slow. So we need a faster solution.
> But, why is it slow?
> It sounds like we are saving the .java in file and then invoking a
> javacc process. The new process needs loads the compiler classes, compiles
> them (?) and then compiles our .java source.

About right.

> If we could have the compiler just loaded on our own memory space, we
> could invoke it saving the loading compiling (?) time. We could also send
> the .java 'file' in memory and expect the .class 'file' also in memory.

That is not a new idea. Just not possible - there is no such functionality
on the Java compiler.


> Yes, may be we need some modifications in the compiler, but as part of
> the apache project we are at a good position for asking it an
> having a good
> answer.

Costin complained about that in this list not long ago.


> Chau,
>
> Gaston
>
> ps: sorry for doing so much guessing but next month I will have much more
> time.
> ps

I also hope for that and it never happens.
=;o)

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

RE: Jasper performance

[Paulo Gaspar]

> ...
> XSLT is not perfect - neither is HTTP or HTML or any other standard. But
> because Apache and many other organizations are implementing and using it
> - I think they'll be around for a while :-)
> 
> Costin

Costin,


You are still missing the point (as I wrote in my previous post on this 
thread) of the big volume of jars XSLT use would add to Tomcat minimal 
distro for JSP compilation.

Also, maybe the impact of using XSLT is quite larger than you expect. 
Especially via the huge memory demands and respective side effects. I 
know that you know well about the impact of creating a zillion of 
objects in memory (as it happens in even the most minimal use of XSLT), 
so I am not going to detail on what those side effects are.

What is worse, XSLT is usualy way too much trouble because so many 
things are so counter intuitive. 

The trap is that the really simple stuff works as expected, but when 
you need something just a little bit more complicated, sudenly you bump
into something that does not work as expected, and you spend the next 
few days trying to figure out what.


Jon is a... er... politness challenged person and is a bit too obcessed 
with Velocity, but he is basically right. 


I used XSLT a lot and I can tell you that is easy for Velocity to be a 
better alternative (and it is not my favourite one!) just because XSLT 
is such a poor template mechanism.

One year ago, I was in the XSLT-LIST, bought Michael Kay book (kind of 
a very essential XSLT bible) and I was thinking about writing everything 
I could in XSLT just as any other XSLT fanatic... until I found out that:
 - I was wasting way too much time with XSLT complexities (why do you 
   think the XSLT-LIST has all that traffic? Do you know that list?);
 - The outcome was always slower and more resource intensive than I 
   found natural (and that the alternatives, as I discovered later).

I would still use XSLT for some XML transformation tasks, but never for
templating.


I use Velocity and, in terms of both functionality and resource usage, 
it would really be a much better choice than XSLT (which is not hard
to do, anyway). But it would NOT be my 1st choice for this (see my 
previous posting for further detail). It would be my 2nd choice in a 
very cut down version.


Notice that I was not born with this knowledge. I went trough a lot of
trouble to learn this. Now, you can
 - Pay attention to what I say and chek it out;
 - Think that the W3C is always right (HAHAHAHAHA!);
 - Think that your intuition is always right, which is another way of 
   saying that you were born knowing it all.


Sorry Costin for assuming that you do not have much experience with 
XSLT and its alternatives, but I just think you are too smart to keep
defending it if you had that experience.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

RE: Collaborative Development (not Cat and Dog)

[Paulo Gaspar]

Well, I do NOT care about the fact that he is not documenting Tomcat 
instead since:
 - He already does a lot;
 - He is not alone at Tomcat, and others (even me or you) could work 
   on the documentation too. We just have other priorities;
 - He as all the right to decide what he does on his free time and to
   have other priorities too;
 - Apache is not paying him and it is not up to us to discuss what Sun
   does or does not care about;


Just to make clear that what I DO care about is that Craig is blaming
all that mess on Tomcat 3.3 instead of pointing the real issue - the
lack of documentation.

More people do listen to Craig than to me, so: 
 - It is much more productive when he points out the real issues 
   (which in this case are quite obvious);
 - And it is much more nocive when he points on the wrong direction.


I still stick with my statement that I DO admire Craig's work. But:
 - No one is perfect;
 - People tend to have a less clear vision of facts about something 
   they are too involved with.


Anyway, errors can be made, but they usually also can be fixed.


Have fun,
Paulo


> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 6:26 PM
> 
> on 5/15/01 3:46 AM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > My evaluation of facts is:
> > - There is almost no documentation on Tomcat, either on web pages
> >  or under a more formal format. Tomcat is much more complex than
> >  Velocity (a Jakarta project I know well) but its documentation
> >  looks pathetic when compared to Velocity's.
> >  IMO, this is the _obvious_ cause for that Tomcat users confusion
> >  that shows at the USER mailing list;
> 
> Now that isn't fair. Craig is just overly busy trying to document 
> Struts so
> that JSP can take over the world! Unfortunately, no one will be 
> able to run
> Struts because they can't figure out how to use Tomcat. Funny Catch-22 if
> you ask me.
> 
> :-)
>
> ...
> 
> -jon

RE: Jasper performance

[Paulo Gaspar]

> Now, people are suggesting using something like XSLT to transform the .jsp
> XML/XHTML file into a .java file. Because you are introducing the
> XSLT layer
> into things, that will have a negative impact on the transformation
> performance (I'm not certain how much, but I am pretty much
> certain it will
> be more than the current system.). Given that this only happens
> when you are
> in development mode, I think that people developing JSP pages
> might not like
> the performance hit.

I used XSLT in the past as a template mechanism and I think that Jon is
right. XSLT is quite demanding on CPU and memory.

(Yes, I am the TemplateMan: I already used XSLT, Freemarker, WebMacro
and Velocity)

MOREOVER, XSLT always adds a lot of baggage to the equation since the
engines are usually quite big and demand for something more than a basic
XML parser.

And do not forget that, bad practice or not, a lot of people like to
have compile-on-change JSPs even in production. So, what ever weight you
add, it will be there all the time for a lot of people.


And then, XSLT syntax is a pain in the ass, which pays even less when
you are not trying to generate well formed XML. It is just too much
trouble. I have been changing stuff from using XSLT to using Velocity
and it is always a big relief.


I do not believe that the code generation for JSPs will demand a very
feature full template mechanism. OTOH, sometimes I often come across java
products that have their own minimal template mechanism... which means
it probably is not hard.

So, I believe that Jasper needs a minimal template mechanism, and not a
maximal one like XSLT.

IF I was messing with Jasper, I would try to find out exactly what is
the absolute minimum of templating features that Jasper would need to
make the code generation easier. I would try to paths:
  1) A very simple XML based template mechanism (with s, s,
 s and so around/controlling-the-flow of the java templated
 text. No namespaces and no other complex XSLT sh*t;
  2) A cut down version of the Webmacro/Velocity syntax.

Since an XML parser is already used, 1) would not need much extra weight.

If I would not be happy after playing with the 1) concept, I would go
for a (very) cut down version of Velocity. My wild guess is that such
cut down version could have less than 150 kB, which is much less that
what you would have with a XSLT parser and it would be less memory and
CPU intensive too. (Yes, Velocity as a load of baggage that can be thrown
away for such simple mechanism, like resource management, app tools, part
of the syntax features and so on.)


For prototyping purposes...
  for 1) It might be possible to find some XML based mechanism in some
 OpenSource project somewhere. I bet that something like that
 exists;
  for 2) You have Velocity, of course.


Well, it is just a suggestion. At the moment that is not my itch.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 7:19 AM
>
>
> on 5/15/01 8:32 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >>> +1 for the generator.
> >>
> >> Considerations on the generator:
> >>
> >> This will slow development down even further doing the
> transformation step.
> >
> > What ? Using JDK1.2 instead of JDK1.1 ?
> >
> > I doubt it, but thanks for worrying about this :-)
> >
> > Costin
>
> Sorry, let me quote the emails a bit better so that you can
> understand what
> I am trying to suggest. See above.
>
> Currently Jasper output's Java code from within Java code. This
> is about as
> fast as you are going to get because there is no intermediate
> transformation
> step going on, just conditional output of String data entirely
> within Java.
> While this is very fast, it also means that modifications to
> Jasper are damn
> near impossible without reading the source code in a fair amount of detail
> and doing quite a lot of testing.
>
> Now, people are suggesting using something like XSLT to transform the .jsp
> XML/XHTML file into a .java file. Because you are introducing the
> XSLT layer
> into things, that will have a negative impact on the transformation
> performance (I'm not certain how much, but I am pretty much
> certain it will
> be more than the current system.). Given that this only happens
> when you are
> in development mode, I think that people developing JSP pages
> might not like
> the performance hit.
>
> Just a word of consideration.
>
> -jon
>
> --
> If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a way to take
> your pain to new levels. --Anonymous
> <http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd.html>
>

RE: Collaborative Development (not Cat and Dog)

[Paulo Gaspar]

. And that leads to a
waste of energies.

Selfish bastard as I am, I see that waste of energies as an obstacle to
better Tomcats 3.x, 4.x and 5.x. And since I want them (specially 5.x),
I keep trying to impose my own harmonious vision (a.k.a. "unambiguous
message") so that you all stop fighting each other and start working
together (even when trough different paths) for a brighter future.
=;o)


Ok, ok, ok! I promise I will start coding more and bulshiting less as soon
as I have time.

And yes... I can write little bits of code. I have a few witnesses
around, since I did a couple of those bits for Velocity...
Honest!!!
I swear!!!
=:o)


Have fun,

Paulo Gaspar



> -Original Message-
> From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 9:01 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Collaborative Development (not Cat and Dog)
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 9 May 2001, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
>
> > > Besides developers and their own itches, there is another group whose
> > > interests ought to be considered - USERS of Tomcat.  If you don't have
> > > any, then it becomes a much less interesting project to work on.  And
> > > we've done a pretty good job at confusing people about what the Tomcat
> > > road map is.  If the user community were to abandon Tomcat,
> it wouldn't
> > > matter much what we do on the development side.
> >
> > Why are USERS that different from developers in this case?
> >
>
> By USERS, I'm talking about the people that use Tomcat as a product, and
> who don't usually even WANT to think about the Tomcat source code.  They
> don't include folks who want to think about participating in Tomcat's
> development -- they just want a cool servlet + JSP container.
>
> For a sense of perspective on the Tomcat user community, consider the
> following:
>
> Just off the main Apache web site, Tomcat binary downloads (in various
> release and nightly build formats) run from 50,000 to 100,000 downloads
> per month.  That doesn't count mirror sites (official and unofficial),
> people who download Tomcat as part of other app servers, people who
> download Tomcat as part of development tools packages, and people who
> download the J2EE RI (which includes Tomcat as its web layer).
>
> At the moment, there are 2,236 subscribers to the TOMCAT-USER list, which
> is the largest Jakarta mailing list other than ANNOUNCEMENTS (~4,200).
> TOMCAT-DEV has 1,125 - many of them subscribed because they want to
> understand where Tomcat is going (a pretty smart way to figure that out,
> IMHO), not because they are contributing.
>
> (This trend is visible in other Jakarta projects as well -- lots and lots
> of downloads, user mailing lists at least double the size of the developer
> list, well-supported packages gaining users much faster than they gain
> developers, ...)
>
> If you want to understand why caring about users is important, go
> subscribe to TOMCAT-USER and start answering all of the plaintive calls
> for help.  These people don't give a rip about the internal architecture -
> they are totally mystified by the absolutely horrible mess we've made of
> configuration, most especially for web connectors.  We're talking about
> lots of people who are new to servlets and JSP, and often new to Java --
> and we are erecting a huge wall in front of them, before they can
> productively use the software that we have been slaving over.
>
> > This is Open Source. The developers are USERS trying to scratch their
> > own itches.
> >
>
> Developers, in terms of the comments I was making, are often Users as well
> -- but there's a whole bunch more Users than that.  It's definitely open
> source, and we Developers are totally free to ignore the non-developer
> Users if we want to.  And those Users are totally free to ignore our
> software and flock to other products whose developers care about them.
> If we were to chase everyone away, it doesn't matter how cool our software
> is any more -- it becomes irrelevant.
>
> > For each USER that becomes a developer to scratch his own itch there are
> > several other USERS with the same itches just waiting for the scratching
> > solution to be ready. (*)
> >
> > One thing I had to learn while starting to use Open Source software (and
> > that was recently - during 2000) was:
> >  1) There is usually no fancy wrapped product with manual and you really
> > have to get involved, subscribe the mailing lists and dive into the
> > source code to understand some of the stuff you use;
> >  2) You still have (much) faster answers for your probl

RE: Question version 1.1

[Paulo Gaspar]

> Nothing is going on... Tomcat 3.x is the reference implementation
> of the old
> Servlet 2.2/JSP 1.1 APIs, while Tomcat 4.x is the reference implementation
> of the upcoming new Servlet 2.3/JSP 1.2 APIs.
> Depending on which API version you want, you might want to try either the
> 3.2 tree or the 4.0 tree...

Maybe something like this should be placed in an impossible to miss place
for whomever tries to download/get info on Tomcat.

It is the most efficient way to stop USERs confusion.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Pier P. Fumagalli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2001 8:05 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Question version 1.1
> Importance: High
>
>
> Michael G. Anderson at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > See Question version 1.0!
> > Is version 3.2.2 beta 5 the latest?
> > or is Tomcat 4(4.4) the latest?
> >
> > What is the latest version?
> >
> > What am I missing?
> >
> >
> > What is going on...
>
> Nothing is going on... Tomcat 3.x is the reference implementation
> of the old
> Servlet 2.2/JSP 1.1 APIs, while Tomcat 4.x is the reference implementation
> of the upcoming new Servlet 2.3/JSP 1.2 APIs.
> Depending on which API version you want, you might want to try either the
> 3.2 tree or the 4.0 tree...
>
> Pier
>

Collaborative Development (not Cat and Dog)

[Paulo Gaspar]

> Besides developers and their own itches, there is another group whose
> interests ought to be considered - USERS of Tomcat.  If you don't have
> any, then it becomes a much less interesting project to work on.  And
> we've done a pretty good job at confusing people about what the Tomcat
> road map is.  If the user community were to abandon Tomcat, it wouldn't
> matter much what we do on the development side.

Why are USERS that different from developers in this case?

This is Open Source. The developers are USERS trying to scratch their
own itches.

For each USER that becomes a developer to scratch his own itch there are
several other USERS with the same itches just waiting for the scratching
solution to be ready. (*)

One thing I had to learn while starting to use Open Source software (and
that was recently - during 2000) was:
 1) There is usually no fancy wrapped product with manual and you really
have to get involved, subscribe the mailing lists and dive into the
source code to understand some of the stuff you use;
 2) You still have (much) faster answers for your problems, even having
the option of participating in their solution.

Whomever is aware of 2) is motivated to do 1).
Whomever does 1) here, understands the 4.x versus 3.3 pros and cons and
is able to make the best choice for his own case.

Corporations need to have a black on white clear statement, hiding or
killing/loosing the advantages of Open Source's 'Software Darwinism'
(which seems to me to have a good profits/cost balance). But this is
not Sun's Tomcat Project, it is Apache's Jakarta Tomcat Project.

The others will always be the (prey) customers of the more traditional
commercial software or are better paying loads of money to have some
consultant thinking for them. (And the consultant might still be an
Open Source adept.)


> There isn't any compelling benefit (to the user community) to have two
> active development branches, once the "next generation" branch
> matures.  The 4.0 container code is pretty stable (letting us focus now on
> performance improvements and feature adds).

You seem to imply that 4.0 is the final solution for everybody. But it
sure is not for me and for many others. (Keep in mind that I do NOT
think that 3.3 is the final solution for everybody either.)

I am new here, but didn't Catalina start a bit against the flow?


> performance improvements and feature adds).  We could have had mod_jk
> ported a long time ago if someone wanted to work on it then (as they are
> apparently willing to now).

Hey! Wasn't Tomcat 4.x betting on mod_webapp???
You should be happy that a few 3.x USERS/Developers kept working on
mod_jk.


Craig, I admire your work a lot. But I find it hard to understand why
such a brilliant person chooses a confrontational tone at the moment
he is collecting such benefits from cooperation.

Remember: most 3.3 people were not that motivated to work on Catalina,
and because they worked (and keep working) on stuff for 3.3 that has
common usefulness, 4.x now can benefit form it.

If it was not for 3.3, maybe they were working on something else. Are
you sure they would be converted to 4.x?

And many USERS (like me) could be now investing on some other tool.
Staying around because of 3.3, maybe they can be converted to 4.x
AFTER 4.x proves its value.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


(*) - Most of them much more silent and even less participative than
  myself.  =;o)


> -Original Message-
> From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 6:37 PM
>
> ...
>
> Besides developers and their own itches, there is another group whose
> interests ought to be considered - USERS of Tomcat.  If you don't have
> any, then it becomes a much less interesting project to work on.  And
> we've done a pretty good job at confusing people about what the Tomcat
> road map is.  If the user community were to abandon Tomcat, it wouldn't
> matter much what we do on the development side.
>
> There isn't any compelling benefit (to the user community) to have two
> active development branches, once the "next generation" branch
> matures.  The 4.0 container code is pretty stable (letting us focus now on
> performance improvements and feature adds).  We could have had mod_jk
> ported a long time ago if someone wanted to work on it then (as they are
> apparently willing to now).
>
> > >In due time, the usual survival rules will tend to favor the
> > >solution that proves to be the best and everybody will work together
> > >again... until the next revolution.
> >
> > A sort of 'Software Darwinism' and species adaptability.
> >
> >
>
> Craig
>
>

RE: [PROPOSAL/VOTE] New Repositories for Collaborative Development

[Paulo Gaspar]

There are clearly 2 lines of "belief" in this project. Each group has
its own motivations and reasons.

We already went over this again and again and my conclusions were
always:
 - People working on 3.3 have their own reasons to do it at the moment;
 - Work is not being lost on 4.x because the 3.3 people do not have the
   same motivation to work on 4.x;
 - It is not a matter of one group being right and the other being
   wrong.

Each of these groups is right - according to their respective reasons
and motivations.

I learned from Jon (*) that Open Source is mostly about scratching your
own itch in a cooperative way. And this is not a corporative project,
it is an Open Source one.

And that is what is happening here: at the moment (things will probably
evolve in some different direction) there are to big groups of itches
to scratch - 3.3 and 4.x.

Instead of loosing more time fighting about the stupid concept of one
of the groups having to be wrong, let's focus on how the two groups
still can cooperate scratching common itches.

There are some very interesting developments on this directions with
mod_jk and jasper. Focusing in this kind of thing is quite productive
and puts some of the 3.3 people cooperating in the development of the
4.x version and vice versa.

Trying to force one of the groups out of its way will just fragment
this project and take the 3.3 people somewhere else (SourceForge or
so).

In due time, the usual survival rules will tend to favor the
solution that proves to be the best and everybody will work together
again... until the next revolution.

Also, remember that 4.x itself started this way.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

(*) - Yes, I sometimes learn from Jon, despite the flame wars.
  =;o)


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Peter
> Mutsaers
> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 7:35 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL/VOTE] New Repositories for Collaborative
> Development
>
>
> >> "Bip" == Bip Thelin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> Bip> I guess more or less the only reason why TC4 hasn't been
> Bip> released as final is because the Servlet/Jsp spec's aren't
> Bip> final so when those get final I'll guess that we'll start
> Bip> working towards a "real" TC4 release. That release would then
> Bip> be the current Tomcat release and thus making TC < 4 more or
> Bip> less obsolete. Sure, user's won't be switching over
>
> I just switched from Apache/JRUN towards Tomcat, and tested Tomcat 3.2
> and 4.0 to decide which one to take (for the production site).
>
> I found some annoyances in the latest released 3.2 version (such as
> not filling in the RootCause in ServletExceptions, making tracing of
> run-time errors harder), so then I tried 4.0-b3. I found it to be as
> least as stable as 3.2 under some stress-testing, and also it is
> clearly faster.
>
> So I didn't even try or consider 3.3; why should I? AFAIAC using 3.3
> doesn't make sense: either the latest "real" release, or something
> which is better and closer to long-term development anyway, but not
> "official" yet.
>
> I understand that TC4 isn't a real release because of the Servlet/JSP
> specs aren't final yet, but that doesn't bother me, because:
>
> Whatever still might change to the specs, they shall remain backwards
> compatible with the current specs (servlet 2.2, jsp 1.1), so if I
> simply use TC4 according to the current specs, and don't use any
> features of the future specs, then even changes to future the specs
> that TC4 implements won't have consequences.
>
> --
> Peter Mutsaers  |  Dübendorf| UNIX - Live free or die
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]  |  Switzerland  | Sent via FreeBSD 4.3-stable
>

RE: Use of Apache proxy module to connect to Tomcat

[Paulo Gaspar]

In my case I want to use the help of mod_rewrite to produce a
static HTML "cache" for "dynamic" pages that are not changed
very often.

BTW, Jon was the one making the remark on AJP being lighter.
(And I believe he is right.)


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


-Original Message-
From: Dunlop, Aaron [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 23:24


Yes - it seems to work just fine with Tomcat. I've been experimenting with
it as a possible authentication and firewall solution, and we may consider
it as a method for load-balancing as well.
We're thinking of having Apache segment our webspace by sending requests to
different apps to different servers (e.g. a production server and a
demonstration/sales server, both accessible from the same domain) Also,
apache can authenticate access to certain pages using an LDAP database.
I'm not sure this is the best solution, and Paulo's probably right that AJP
would be more efficient, but it seems to be working so far.
Just my $.02
Aaron Dunlop
-Original Message-
From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 1:59 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Use of Apache proxy module to connect to Tomcat


on 4/10/01 1:59 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Is this possible for Tomcat too? Pros and cons?
>
> Thanks and have fun,
> Paulo Gaspar

Of course it is.
Proxy HTTP is probably not as efficient as a lightweight protocol (ie: AJP),
especially if the two systems are running on the same box (ie: local
sockets).
It also doesn't solve the configuration issues.
All you are doing in this case is putting another layer in front of the
Tomcat HTTPd. I don't see a reason to do that when the Tomcat HTTPd works
just fine. All you are gaining is the Apache module features (like
mod_rewrite).
-jon

RE: Use of Apache proxy module to connect to Tomcat

[Paulo Gaspar]

Thanks Jon,


That gave me a good enough perspective of the pros and cons. I have a 
scenario where using the proxy could actually be better.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 22:59
> 
> 
> on 4/10/01 1:59 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Is this possible for Tomcat too? Pros and cons?
> > 
> > Thanks and have fun,
> > Paulo Gaspar
> 
> Of course it is.
> 
> Proxy HTTP is probably not as efficient as a lightweight protocol 
> (ie: AJP),
> especially if the two systems are running on the same box (ie: local
> sockets).
> 
> It also doesn't solve the configuration issues.
> 
> All you are doing in this case is putting another layer in front of the
> Tomcat HTTPd. I don't see a reason to do that when the Tomcat HTTPd works
> just fine. All you are gaining is the Apache module features (like
> mod_rewrite).
> 
> -jon

Use of Apache proxy module to connect to Tomcat

[Paulo Gaspar]

Taking a look at Orion I just bumped on this one:
  http://www.orionsupport.com/articles/apachefrontend.html

Their solution to use Apache as a front end is:
  "Use Apache as a reverse proxy."

And there is even a sample for httpd.conf:

  ...
  LoadModule etc..
  LoadModule proxy_module /path/to/apache/library/libproxy.so
  LoadModule etc..
  ...

  
  ProxyVia On
  ProxyPass /myapp http://orion.private.bigcorp.com:9876/
  ProxyPassReverse /myapp http://orion.private.bigcorp.com:9876/
  ...
  


Is this possible for Tomcat too? Pros and cons?


Thanks and have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

RE: 'Just say no to JSP' - Pointer to JSP list

[Paulo Gaspar]

Thanks Jay.
I am replying also to get your post contents in text format.

Have fun,
Paulo

-Original Message-
From: Burgess, Jay [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 21:13

I sent Paulo my thoughts offline, and he responded as below.  You can find
what you need for "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" at:
   http://archives.java.sun.com/archives/jsp-interest.html
Jay

-Original Message-----
From: Paulo Gaspar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 2:22 PM
To: Burgess, Jay
Subject: RE: 'Just say no to JSP'
Could you please post this and the address of that list in the Tomcat-Dev
list? That seems to be the way to fix this.


Thanks,
Paulo
-Original Message-
From: Burgess, Jay [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 20:52
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: RE: 'Just say no to JSP'


I would argue that the JSP-INTEREST list is where JSP discussions should
take place. Maybe we should keep the TOMCAT-DEV list focused on Tomcat
development?
Jay
-Original Message-
From: Paulo Gaspar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 2:03 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: 'Just say no to JSP'



Earl,



If you think one should not discuss the merits of JSP here, you should
not take part on it even if to defend JSP.
If you agree we should talk about the pros and cons of JSPs, it is hard
to talk about the cons of JSP in a constructive way without pointing
alternatives. Can one just say it is bad without pointing alternatives
and still give worthy input?
Or do you just want to talk about the pros?
=;o)
Clearly, there are some problems with JSPs. Supporting a clear
separation between logic (scripting) and presentation (templating) is
not easy to enforce with JSPs. And this is a discussion going on in
many forums.
Now, JSPs are nice for scripting stuff (when you want to code and see
the result with no compiling/restarts). I even thought of using JSPs
for the scripting with Velocity for templating!!! And this is not such
new idea since there are people using JSPs with XSLT for the same
purposes.
But XSLT just makes things too hard. Too much cost for not enough
profit. I just converted a XSLT based application to Velocity and I
sure know what I am talking about.
Maybe JSPs just need something extra for the templating side. Maybe
JSPs can learn that from Velocity/WebMacro template engines.
And this list is one of the best spots to talk about this. The right
people read this. * Isn't Tomcat the reference JSP implementation? *



Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar



> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 18:48
>
> Why has the tomcat-dev list become a Velocity advocacy list??
> Isn't the purpose of this list supposed to be for communation between
> Tomcat developers?  Is velocity recruiting or something?
>
> =eas=

RE: 'Just say no to JSP'

[Paulo Gaspar]

Earl,


If you think one should not discuss the merits of JSP here, you should
not take part on it even if to defend JSP.

If you agree we should talk about the pros and cons of JSPs, it is hard
to talk about the cons of JSP in a constructive way without pointing 
alternatives. Can one just say it is bad without pointing alternatives 
and still give worthy input?

Or do you just want to talk about the pros?
=;o)

Clearly, there are some problems with JSPs. Supporting a clear 
separation between logic (scripting) and presentation (templating) is
not easy to enforce with JSPs. And this is a discussion going on in 
many forums.

Now, JSPs are nice for scripting stuff (when you want to code and see
the result with no compiling/restarts). I even thought of using JSPs 
for the scripting with Velocity for templating!!! And this is not such
new idea since there are people using JSPs with XSLT for the same 
purposes.

But XSLT just makes things too hard. Too much cost for not enough 
profit. I just converted a XSLT based application to Velocity and I 
sure know what I am talking about.

Maybe JSPs just need something extra for the templating side. Maybe 
JSPs can learn that from Velocity/WebMacro template engines.

And this list is one of the best spots to talk about this. The right
people read this. * Isn't Tomcat the reference JSP implementation? *


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 18:48
> 
> Why has the tomcat-dev list become a Velocity advocacy list??
> Isn't the purpose of this list supposed to be for communation between
> Tomcat developers?  Is velocity recruiting or something?
> 
> =eas=

RE: "Just say no to JSP" Re: [Fwd: Tomcat may reveal script source code by URL trickery]

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 02:00
>
> ...
>
> My only complaints would be not
> enough debug tools around to be able to single step through new code
> when you are having problems, 
>
> ...

JBuilder 4 works just fine for me.
And it works on Windows, Linux, Solaris and other Java platforms.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

RE: [Fwd: Tomcat may reveal script source code by URL trickery]

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 19:34
>
> ...
> 
> Now that is coming from the guy who previously flamed me to hell on this
> list. :-) I love it.
> 
> ...
>
> -jon

Well, I often agree with you too. It even happened recently about a 
"scratch you own itch" situation.

I am not personally after you Jon, it all depends on what you are saying.
=;o)


Have fun,
Paulo

RE: 'Just say no to JSP' Re: [Fwd: Tomcat may reveal script source code by URL trickery]

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 20:57
> 
> ...
>
> Nothing wrong - yet another fine language, and a very nice 
> implementation. 
> And nothing good either - or I coulnd't find anything revolutionary
> compared with other programming languages or other fine template-like 
> systems. 

Not revolucionary at all. The Velocity team publicly recognizes the 
inspiration from WebMacro.

But the implementation makes a difference. I find Velocity much easier to
control and mold into my own needs. (Clearer source code sure helps there.)

And I am not saying it is perfect.

 
> Arguing what is the best programming language or if interpreted is better
> than compiled is mostly a waste of time. Some people will prefer to learn
> VTL, other will prefer to use Java, other will like the XML-like syntax.

Sure. And compiled is still an open option for Velocity.


> I think code generation is a good thing, ...

Sure, some template use problems could be easier to debug if there is some 
intermediate source code and a good debugger.

> ... and I prefer using Jsp with Java
> for quick prototypes and taglibs when possible.



In my case, using JSP + taglibs in JServ (I still do not have a Tomcat 
production server here) is more trouble than using Velocity.

On the other hand, I have a lot of exports to HTML - generation of static 
HTML from data in a database - and Velocity gives me a big help on that,
while JSPs

And then, I would like to be able export most of my site's dynamically 
generated pages to static HTML. Many pages don't change often and it is
more efficient to develop dynamically and export to static HTML for 
production.


> Costin

Have fun,
Paulo

RE: "Just say no to JSP" Re: [Fwd: Tomcat may reveal scriptsource code by URL trickery]

[Paulo Gaspar]

I sure had my "little" flames with Jon, but that is a very important 
thing I learned from him.

I agree that the problem is there - not enough error info - and I had my 
share of such problems, but this is open source, so, you can fix it.

OTOH, some developers can still learn a bit from this kind of feedback 
and pay a bit more of attention to providing good debug info.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Alex Fernandez [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 10:03
> 
> 
> Hi Brad!
> 
> ...
> 
> I'm about to answer in Jon's favorite manner (hope you don't mind, Jon):
> Ok, it seems to be a problem. Why don't you fix it?
> 
> ... 
>
> Un saludo,
> 
> Alex.
> 

RE: [Fwd: Tomcat may reveal script source code by URL trickery]

[Paulo Gaspar]

I tried XSLT (... I really tried!!!) FreeMarker, WebMacro 
and Velocity.

I stay with Velocity.
(Life and templates sure can be simpler than XSLT.)


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Daniel Lopez [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 19:05
> 
> You're right!
> That's another reason to use a model 2 based approach but, of 
> course, JSP still
> allows you to shoot you on your foot if you are fool enough to do 
> so. That's one
> of the reasons we chose a model 2 based approach with XML-XSLT 
> for the interface
> creation, no JSP involved: no feet in danger ;).
> just my 2c,
> Dan
> 
> Jon Stevens wrote:
> 
> > I know that these are just minor bugs in Tomcat (and other servlet
> > containers as well), but man, this is getting ridiculous. This 
> is clearly
> > yet another reason to not use JSP. Especially when you have 
> sites like this:
> >
> > <http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/Jserv/JSP5/page3.html>
> >
> > Actually *encouraging* people to put their usernames and passwords into
> > their JSP files. The term "Gross negligence" comes to mind.
> >
> > -jon
> >
> 
> ...
> 

RE: What hapenned to 3.3 nightly builds?

[Paulo Gaspar]

No problem.
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 21:33
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: What hapenned to 3.3 nightly builds?
> 
> 
> On Thu, 15 Mar 2001, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> 
> > What hapenned to 3.3 nightly builds?
> > 
> > Not much at:
> >   http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-tomcat/nightly-3.3/
> 
> I'm working on it :-)
> 
> Sorry about that. 
> 
> Costin
> 

What hapenned to 3.3 nightly builds?

[Paulo Gaspar]

What hapenned to 3.3 nightly builds?

Not much at:
  http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-tomcat/nightly-3.3/


Thanks,
Paulo

RE: [VOTE] New Committer: Amy Roh

[Paulo Gaspar]

Even a nasty (ex) flame warrior like me agrees 100% with this.
=;o)

Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Of Dan Milstein
>
> ...
>
> I strongly disagree -- if Amy is going to focus on 4.x, I think that's
> absolutely fine.  We don't need every developer to work on all three
> branches -- we need enough developers committed to supporting each branch
> we're serious about releasing and maintaining.  Adding someone
> who is going
> to focus on 4.x in no way impedes our support for 3.2/3.3.  That
> is why the
> clear vote about who was going to work to support 3.3 was so
> useful -- some
> people are focusing on 3.3, some people are not.  That's fine.
>
> I have not yet done much (read: any) work on 4.x.  Does this mean
> that I am
> not fully contributing to the Tomcat project?  I don't think so -- some of
> the project's programmers are currently working on pushing 3.3 towards
> release, some are working towards getting 3.2.2 out (go Marc!),
> and some are
> working on 4.x.  There is some overlap, but I do not think it is important
> that everyone work on every branch.
>
> Please, please, please, let's not get into another debate about 3.x vs 4.x
> -- I am really enjoying this list being useful again, and not clogged with
> flame wars.
>
> -Dan


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RE: anyway to watch what tomcat is doing?

[Paulo Gaspar]

I use JBuilder 4. The foundation version is free and you can 
download it from:
  http://www.borland.com/jbuilder/foundation/

I use it in Windows but there is a Solaris (and Linux) 
version too. IMHO, this debugger is very nice to use.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Michael Mealling [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 00:10
> 
> > Can you start tomcat in a debugger, and see what happens? 
> 
> Possibly... any recommendations for which one to use?
> 


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RE: [PATCH] JDBCRealm on Tomcat 3.2.1 does not work with MS SQL Server

[Paulo Gaspar]

That problem should only happen with the CHAR type, but with the CHAR type
it can happen in other databases too. 

AFAIK, the use of VARCHAR doesn't cause trailing spaces to be added in MS
SQL Server. Although I only used SQL Server trough BDE, ODBC and ADO, it 
is hard to imagine that a JDBC driver would cause such thing.

(Anyway, I think it is a good fix.)

Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Larry Rogers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 06:39
> 
> 
> This is my first patch to submit.  I'm sorry I don't have a diff file to 
> go with it.
> 
> Anyway, when using Tomcat 3.2.1 JDBCRealm with Microsoft SQL Server, the 
> credential check fails when the correct username and password are 
> submitted by the user.  After Tomcat receives the credentials from the 
> user, it queries the user table in the database for what the password 
> should be for the username received from the browser.  When it compares 
> the password from the browser to the one from the database, the 
> comparison does not pass, even though the password is correct.
> 
> This is caused by the way SQL Server returns a string with trailing 
> spaces for the password query. The problem occurs for column type of 
> char or varchar as well.
> 
> The patch involves changing the following line from JDBCRealm.java
> 
> if (credentials.equals(rs1.getString(1))) {
> 
> to read as follows
> 
> if (credentials.equals(rs1.getString(1).trim())) {
> 
> This will trim the padded spaces from the password received from SQL 
> Server before comparing it to the password submitted by the user, and 
> the comparison will pass.
> 
> Thanks,
> Larry


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Class loading impact on performance?

[Paulo Gaspar]

Did anyone notice this posting?


> Command line usage:
> Step1 - 280ms
> Step2 - 20ms
> Step3 - 3946ms
> Step4 - 531ms
>
> Servlet in Tomcat 3.2.1
> Step1 - 2954ms
> Step2 - 421ms
> Step3 - 46266ms
> Step4 - 8442ms
>
> As you can see, the performance degraded by about 10 times. I got around
> this by going against everything I believed about  where to place libs in
> tomcat and loaded all jars in the server startup script. The problem goes
> away.
>
> I believe this is a problem with class loading on Tomcat.


The original posting:

> -Original Message-
> From: Edwards, Peter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 15:19
> To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'; '[EMAIL PROTECTED]';
> '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> Subject: Xalan and Tomcat - installation and performance issues
>
>
> I hope no-one minds me cross-posting this but it covers all areas.
>
> I have had success using Xalan2 in a servlet on Tomcat3.2 and also found
> some major performance problems. I thought it would be useful for
> people to
> be aware of these problems and I would value any comments/suggestions.
>
> First, I hit the well-known problem of clashing XML parsers. I solved this
> by removing jaxp.jar and parser.jar from the tomcat\lib directory and
> inserted xerces,jar in their place. This does not work on
> Tomcat3.1 since it
> directly uses xml.jar - you have to add xerces to the classpath of the
> server startup before the other jars.
>
> I was then able to create a simple servlet using Xalan2 to perform a
> transformation (using Transformer). I'm using JDK1.3, NT4 running
> on 600MHz
> P3 with 256Mb RAM. The performance was appalling so I did a
> number of tests
> with the following code:
>
> TransformerFactory tFactory = TransformerFactory.newInstance();   //
> step1
>
> StreamSource style = new StreamSource(xsl);
>   //
> step2
> StreamSource source = new StreamSource(xml);
> StreamResult res = new StreamResult(out);
>
> Transformer transformer = tFactory.newTransformer(style); //
> step3
>
> transformer.transform(source, res);
>   //
> step4
>
> Command line usage:
> Step1 - 280ms
> Step2 - 20ms
> Step3 - 3946ms
> Step4 - 531ms
>
> Servlet in Tomcat 3.2.1
> Step1 - 2954ms
> Step2 - 421ms
> Step3 - 46266ms
> Step4 - 8442ms
>
> As you can see, the performance degraded by about 10 times. I got around
> this by going against everything I believed about  where to place libs in
> tomcat and loaded all jars in the server startup script. The problem goes
> away.
>
> I believe this is a problem with class loading on Tomcat.
>
> Pete Edwards
>
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RE: Tomcat 4.0 and JSP

[Paulo Gaspar]

Maybe he was concerned about users like you.

> -Original Message-
> From: John Golubenko [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 07:43
> 
> Why would you complain about HTML mail, if you using M$ software 
> (outlook)?
> If you were the person like me, the Linux user, then I'll understand. ;)
> 
> 
> >> Original Message <<
> 
> On 2/13/01, 10:19:16 PM, "Remy Maucherat" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote 
> regarding 
> Re: Tomcat 4.0 and JSP:
> 
> 
> > > How in apache do I get all my .jsp files to be executed by tomcat.
> > > Even when I use the WebAppMount, the servlets work, but it 
> won't execute
> > >the jsp.   Basically I don't car about servlets, I just want my server
> > > to recognize any *.jsp and have tomcat 4.0 execute without having to
> > > specify a port in the URL like 8080.
> 
> > There are a few things I would do :
> > - Don't send HTML mails to mailing lists ;)
> > - You can run TC 3.2 with Apache just fine. mod_webapp is very alphaish
> > right now.
> > - You can run TC 4.0 standalone. The port on which the HTTP connector 
> runs
> > can be changed in the conf/server.xml file (so set it to be 80 
> instead of
> > 8080).
> 
> > Remy
> 
> 
> > -
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> > For additional commands, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
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RE: Tomcat 3.3 Release Plan Voting Results

[Paulo Gaspar]

Hi Larry,


I did not vote since I have no right to do it, but I would like to help.

I am starting to use TC 3.x HEAD and getting familiar with its internals.
If there are some fixes that do not demand for a wide knowledge of Tomcat
(as if they just involve a couple of modules) I am willing to do that 
kind of work.

I will also review as much code as I can (which is something that helps
learning more about TC). If there are preferences about which modules
should benefit more from reviews, please say so.


Thanks,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Larry Isaacs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 15:37
> 
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> My tally of the Tomcat 3.3 Release Plan shows the release plan being
> approved with the following vote totals.
> 
> +18
> +08
>  01
> -0none
> -1none
> 
> Thanks for the show of support.
> 
> I'll be e-mailing those who voluteered earlier to work in specific areas.
> Together, I hope we can bring Tomcat 3.3 to a state where the vote to
> release Tomcat 3.3, which should occur in a couple of months, will be as
> positive as this one.
> 
> Cheers,
> Larry


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RE: Thread-safety

[Paulo Gaspar]

Bruce Eckel on his book "Thinking in Java" states that a simple method call
(no parameters) takes 5.9 units of time while a synchronized method call
takes
570. OTOH, object creation takes 980 which makes it an even worse
alternative.

(The used time unit is the time spent to perform a local assignment.)

The book can be found on line (pdf format) from:
  http://www.bruceeckel.com/

You can find this data on a table in "Apendix D: Performance".


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 13:17
>
> ...
>
> If it turns out that either of those two assertions are false (in
> particular if it turns out that the overhead of a synchronize is
> negligible
> compared to the overhead of the processing of a request), then we might as
> well do the simple and clean thing and remove the unsafe if checks.
>
> ...
>
> Anybody have any hard data on the validity of the presumptions above?
>
> - Sam Ruby


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RE: Forming an opinion

[Paulo Gaspar]

So, it seems that you have nothing against self defense. Right?

Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: James Duncan Davidson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 19:23
> 
> On 1/22/01 4:16 PM, "Geoff Soutter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Yeah, sounds reasonable. Maybe I ought to be asking how do we 
> protect the
> > people that get offended? :-)
> 
> Those who need to be protected shouldn't walk outside their front door.
> 
> -- 
> James Duncan Davidson
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   
> !try; do()


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RE: Forming an opinion

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 01:35
> 
> ...
>
> How about discussing what to do when a developer goes and does 
> whatever the
> fuck he wants to do regardless of what everyone else voted and agreed on?
> 
> -jon
> 

Jon, get over it and move on. The rest of us have.

thanks,

Paulo

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RE: Forming an opinion

[Paulo Gaspar]

Hey Jon,

You attacked Anil's position, but you did not proof him wrong.
What are you attacking? The ideas or the man?

Your ideas often make sense. Often better than opposite ideas.

IMO, what Anil, me and others dislike is that, instead of attacking
the opposite ideas, you attack the people that defend them, one by
one if necessary.

That is why me and others understand faster other people that are
defending just the same you do.

What about starting to attack the opposite ideas instead of the men
behind them? For sure it would be more efficient.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 22:08
>
> Hey Anil,
>
> I know your car was broken, but you could have gotten a ride to the PMC
> meeting from one or more of the *many* people that you work with who were
> there (James, Pier, Amy, Jim, Costin, Justyi, Craig) and voiced your
> opinions directly instead of attempting to bring them up here after the
> fact.
>
> As a member of the PMC, you should have been there. Everyone else
> was and I
> don't think that attending the meeting was an optional thing. In fact, you
> attempted to dial in and then sent me email after having dropped
> off stating
> that you couldn't hear what people were saying...why didn't you just say
> something? We could have moved the mike closer to people as necessary. We
> didn't know.
>
> I'm tired of people who can't even bother to participate at the most
> important meeting attempting to censor or control me. That is bullshit.
>
> thanks,
>
> -jon


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RE: Forming an opinion

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 19:39
>
> on 1/22/01 2:55 AM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Now, by fundamentally right I mean that the basic idea is
> perfect and that
> > the implementation is somewhat shity. In the case of dial ins,
> I think that
> > he should not reprehend specific people (as he did with me and
> others) for
> > not trying to dial in when he does not know shit about why we
> did not do it.
>
> ...
> Your insistence that no one should know your personal business is bullshit
> in a public forum where you are speaking your mind freely. If I wasn't
able
> to make the meeting I would have stood up and told everyone why in clear
> details. I guess I expect the same level of professionalism from others
> concerning events as important as a PMC meeting that is a result of heated
> mailing list discussions. Maybe that is wrong.
> ...

I think that principle is right. What is (IMO) wrong is to be judge and
condemn people for not dialing in even before you know why.


> > I just replied non stop and point by point to Jon's postings as he often
> > does (without even getting, IMHO, as personal as he sometimes did).
> >
> > * However, some people reprehended me and not him.
> > (And notice that I was doing this only with Jon.)
>
> There is a simple reason that comes from a very old saying:
>
> Two wrongs don't make a right.
>
> If I'm wrong, then trying to show me that I'm wrong by also being wrong
> doesn't make you look right.
>
> I'm not saying that what I was doing was wrong, but I am saying
> that it was
> wrong of you to try to show me that I was wrong by being wrong.
> That is why
> other people were flaming you more than me. :-)
> :-)

hehehe

You could be right about that being the reason! It is another way
of considering the issue that makes some sense.
=:o)

> -jon

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


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RE: Meeting dialins

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: James Duncan Davidson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 06:50
>
> On 1/21/01 11:28 AM, "Shawn McMurdo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > A reservation system or even an informal "who's planning on dialing in"
> > query on the list before the meeting can give the community and the
> > organizers a good feel for whether there is room for casual observers
> > or whether more ports are needed.
>
> We did request that info. :) I'm sorry that my wording of the message gave
> people the idea that they weren't welcome to call in.. I was
> unsure of what
> kind of response we'd get since we didn't have a very good
> feedback to Jim's
> mail -- and I also figured that if you really wanted to call in,
> you'd do so
> anyways. :)
>
> --
> James Duncan Davidson

Jon already gave a (IMHO) very good answer to how people that want to
dial in should prepare to such events:


> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2001 21:20
>
> on 1/21/01 11:28 AM, "Shawn McMurdo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > A reservation system or even an informal "who's planning on dialing in"
> > query on the list before the meeting can give the community and the
> > organizers a good feel for whether there is room for casual observers
> > or whether more ports are needed.
>
> If you were really concerned and really wanted to listen, you could have
> helped coordinate making this happen instead of stating agreement with the
> obvious after the fact.  :-)

Who is right is behind the point. We all are learning with this experience.
Next time everybody can do better.


Have fun,
Paulo


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RE: Forming an opinion

[Paulo Gaspar]

> If you have a beef with Jon's behavior, then voicing it here, or to him
> personally, is the appropriate thing to do.

That is just what we did. IMHO, no one was asking for "official action".

We made remarks about that issue of other veterans reprehending me and 
not Jon or both. But even this level of reprehension does not look that 
"official" to me either.

Have fun,
Paulo


> -Original Message-
> From: James Duncan Davidson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 06:50
> 
> On 1/20/01 11:56 PM, "Anil Vijendran" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Agreed, James. I don't really see anyone question Jon's 
> contributions to ASF
> > or to open source, in general. Jon is prolific and that's 
> great. But many
> > posts from Jon "cross the line" and are harrassment. A small 
> bit of toning
> > down would go > a long way.
> 
> I should have been more clear -- legally defined harassment. 
> Threats to body
> or property come to mind. Stalking. Not being a lawyer I don't know what
> else the ASF could be considered to be liable for (and of course 
> it depends
> on what a jury thinks), however in my opinion it has to be this 
> serious for
> official action to be taken. After all, it seemed clear to me 
> that the PMC's
> role was too narrowly defined to include "niceness overseers".
> 
> If you have a beef with Jon's behavior, then voicing it here, or to him
> personally, is the appropriate thing to do. Or if you want the 
> PMC's charter
> expanded, that's something that can be discussed.
> 
> -- 
> James Duncan Davidson
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   
> !try; do()


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RE: Forming an opinion

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: James Duncan Davidson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, January 22, 2001 06:50
>
> On 1/20/01 2:45 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> ...
>
> Maybe I was putting forth my opinion as well. Happens now and then. :)

We all are and that was never the question.


> ...
>
> However, I personally think it would be a shame to muzzle somebody
> for anything less than harassment that is probably legally
> prosecutable. If
> somebody threatens personal harm, then that's definitely over the line. So
> far though, we've been lucky enough to not see "I'm going to drive right
> over to your house and kick your ass" being stated on the mailing lists.

Then we have different opinions.

I think harassment and other behaviors can be too destructive for a
mailing list like this, way before you have to call the police. You _seem_
to think that while one as not to call the police everything is ok.

Obviously, no one ever talked about calling the police here. Fortunately, we
were always far from that.


> ... [a lot of stuff on the dial ins] ...

You are missing/going around the point.

Jon is fundamentally right about the dial in issue and after working to have
them available it is just natural he is disappointed with the level of
participation. Jon also made quite clear that the fears that there were not
enough lines were not excuse because, if people were interested, they should
try to make lists of intended participants and so on.

One message that Jon passes trough quite well is that people should take
initiative instead of complaining and I think he is fundamentally right.


Now, by fundamentally right I mean that the basic idea is perfect and that
the implementation is somewhat shity. In the case of dial ins, I think that
he should not reprehend specific people (as he did with me and others) for
not trying to dial in when he does not know shit about why we did not do it.

And I do _not_ intend to justify myself because it just isn't this list
business.


> > I also have no problem about the existence of cliques like the
> core Apache
> > team. Any organization needs a core and I think that this is a
> strong one.
> >
> > However, I think that this kind of clique must rule by example.
>
> s/must/should/ -- there's no onus enforced to make people in an
> open source
> project hold themselves and their behavior up to some sort of
> standard other
> than the fact that if people don't like that person or group of
> people, they
> can always fork away or do something else with their life. We do
> have a set
> of rules that admittedly needing some work. Right now, those
> rules don't say
> anything about "Rules of Conduct". Until they do, there is no
> "must" there.

IMHO, you are missing the point again.

I just replied non stop and point by point to Jon's postings as he often
does (without even getting, IMHO, as personal as he sometimes did).

 * However, some people reprehended me and not him.
   (And notice that I was doing this only with Jon.)

So, the point is:
 * If some veterans wanted to stop this, they should have started by
   reprehending Jon or both.
   (That has to do to what I was calling "ruling by example".)


Besides, since there are no limitations to opinions in this list, I think
some of us are free to defend a minimum "standard" without having to fork
away, just as you are free to defend what you are defending.


> > Someone (more than once, different people) asked me to stop
> because I was
> > replying without quitting to anything Jon posted just as he was
> replying to
> > me (as you wrote, it takes two!).
> >
> > So, Jon and I were doing the same (bad) thing, but only I got
> reprehended
> > that time. Reprehending both (or none) would be a lot more coherent.
>
> Actually, I don't think I reprehended either of you. All I did was defend
> him a bit. And if he had stated that he thought that you were out of line
> with your postings, I probably would have flamed him a bit for that... As
> far as other people reprehending you, well, that's their business.

What I wrote does not have to do with your attitudes but with the questions
you raise.

Besides, Jon does not have to be defended from me. Not only because Jon is
a productive veteran and I am a no one here (although a noisy one). Also
because I respect his work and I already did learn a lot from him. I also
do not have a problem agreeing with (and sometimes supporting) many of the
things he proposes.

Besides, I can see that currently there is no flame war going on with Jon
on this list and he is doing very constructive work.

To use an euphemism, let's say we just had a (big) problem about

RE: Meeting dialins

[Paulo Gaspar]

I suppose that people that do not bitch and complain are welcome too.
=;o)

Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2001 07:11
>
> ...
>
> There were 3 people who dialed in and 20 dialin ports. I don't
> think we need
> to reserve spots, instead, we need people who are willing to bitch and
> complain on the mailing lists to actually participate in the meetings that
> matter.
>
> -jon


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RE: Forming an opinion

[Paulo Gaspar]

I would rather let waters stay still. I am behaving and so is Jon.

However, you choused to write about this mess on the list again. So, I
will answer on the list. I hope this does not (re)start anything.

Everything I am writing here was already told before in previous postings.
Maybe you had no patience to read all the stuff behind - and I can
understand that.

My reply follows:

> -Original Message-
> From: James Duncan Davidson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2001 22:14
>
> On 1/18/01 2:49 AM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Jon isn't the most polite of people sometimes, but he does have valid
> concerns wrt stability and following the rules that we have at the ASF. If
> you disagree with what somebody says, it is easy to just say that they
> aren't making sense. It takes two to fight, and you are doing
> more than your share.

Jon often is right and I never denied that. The problem only had to do with
the frequent lack of a minimum of respect and politeness.

Also, IMHO, he crossed the line of harassment with Costin and was at least
around that border with me. But after I did what I did, I don't complain any
more.

> As far as the dial-ins -- I'm disappointed as well that they were not as
> well used as they could have been.

Understandable.

But you are not telling me and others how I should have used the connection
and how I am a bad boy for not doing it and so on.

That was the issue. Jon know nothing about the lives and problems of several
people that he flamed because of not dialing in.

> ...

> > He always wants to have the last word. Usually (because he is
> part of the
> > clique?) no one asks him to stop. So, this time, I have just
> kept answering
> > to him to see what happens.
>
> Jon was around since *way* back in Jserv days. Does that make him part of
> the clique? Probably. Face it, cliques happen. Open Source is
> built on trust
> more than anything else and Jon has built up more Open Source
> projects than
> I can keep track of.

I respect Jon's many merits. Just have a problem with these specific issues.

I also have no problem about the existence of cliques like the core Apache
team. Any organization needs a core and I think that this is a strong one.

However, I think that this kind of clique must rule by example.

It gets specially bad when, repeated times, I get reprehended by members of
that clique by _imitating_ Jon's attitude while he doesn't.
(Some people did criticize Jon or both of us too. I also noticed that.)


> I won't ask Jon to stop arguing just like I won't ask Costin or Craig. It
> may more may not be constructive, but email is the mechanism that we have
> and flames are par for course. The point at which to ask people to stop is
> when posts cross the line and become "harassment".

I think that line was crossed 1st by him and then, according to some
interpretations, by me.

However, people should notice I never had this attitude with anyone else. I
had a reaction and not an initiative.


> > It surprises me that, instead of asking Jon (the PMC member
> that should set
> > the example) to stop, you are asking me.
>
> So as a PMC member, he shouldn't voice an opinion? That's akin to
> what I've
> been told that as PMC chair, I have to put my opinions aside.
> That of course
> is utter bs. If you're on the PMC, it's because you are supposed to *have*
> an opinion.

Please read again what I wrote.

Someone (more than once, different people) asked me to stop because I was
replying without quitting to anything Jon posted just as he was replying to
me (as you wrote, it takes two!).

So, Jon and I were doing the same (bad) thing, but only I got reprehended
that time. Reprehending both (or none) would be a lot more coherent.


I started this whole thing because almost no one dares to criticize Jon.
Everybody else had to quit replying his attacks and he always had the last
word even while being quite impolite. And almost no third party would dare
to complain about it. I did quit threads like this several times and got
fed up about it.

Silence from Apache veterans was too "loud" in this situations - while
some of them tend to reprehend other people if they do similar things.

I wanted to see how far this could go.


Anyway, Jon is doing a lot of really constructive work now. And, like
anyone else, he does a lot more constructive stuff when he is not into
flame wars, since these take time and energy.

So, I hope everything goes on like it is now and another mess does not
start again. I did not say anything new in this posting.

> James Duncan Davidson
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> !try; do()

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


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RE: Interceptors

[Paulo Gaspar]

Damn, that is somethink I would like very much to see.

Many people indent HTML with spaces - those who code by hand.
Some of them (size conscious) unindent them for production 
and sometimes partially indent again for fixing something!

And we often use "font" tags everywhere because of browsers 
with bad CSS support. 

I would feel much better about those spaces and font tags 
thinking how little they would weight after gziped.

Ok! I know that all HTML (with all those repetitive tags) 
benefits a lot from compression. But for me (and those HTML 
coders) there is a feel good factor on gzip support.
=;o)

Have fun,
Paulo


> -Original Message-
> From: Remy Maucherat [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, January 19, 2001 23:10
> 
> ...
>
> BTW, I think compression should be part of the HTTP connector. 
> Every modern 
> browser out there sends accept-encoding headers with the 
> appropriate value :
> - IE 5 sends : gzip, deflate
> - Mozilla sends : gzip,deflate,compress,identity
> - Netscape 4.7 sends : gzip
> So roughly 95% of the requests will be wrapped by a compression 
> valve. I also 
> think that compression should be considered basic functionality.
> 
> ...
>
> Remy


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RE: Call for volunteers

[Paulo Gaspar]

I can help with these ones (3 and 5) and maybe a bit with 
  "7. User support/documentation"

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, January 19, 2001 17:05
> 
> 3. Code review/Documentation: The code is not perfect, but it should do
> its job. Reading the tomcat.core and making sure it's ok is essential.
> 
> 5. Testing your application with tomcat :-) ( this is probably a better
> and more important test than our regression )
> 


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RE: Interceptors

[Paulo Gaspar]

Over the weekend I will start having a look at 3.x HEAD. If you do not
think that document is urgent and no one faster at doing it pops up, I
can try writing something like that.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

P.S.: BTW, I was also refering to specialized events has in Swing. That
is the kind of thing that realy cuts down development complexity.

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, January 19, 2001 05:54
>
> P.S. Those are just few of the reasons behind the 3.x Interceptors. It
> would be great if someone would want to help creating a small document
> based on the discussions we had - with the pros and cons. I could also add
> few examples, and maybe go into more details about how the most
> important
> chains work ( Error handling, session, auth, mapping )
>


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RE: Interceptors

[Paulo Gaspar]

As a "piping" mechanism (as opposed to a "hooking" one) the kind
of thing Donald described is my favorite one.

My other $0.02 are that I agree 100% with Jon on this. People will
get confused if you have 2 different ways of using valves from a
minor version to the other.

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, January 19, 2001 02:22
> 
> on 1/18/01 4:28 PM, "Craig R. McClanahan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> 
> > If you change the names and parameter orders a little, you have 
> just quoted
> > the
> > new api for javax.servlet.Filter in the 2.3 Proposed Final Draft.
> > 
> > I'd be game to change the Valve APIs to conform to this kind of 
> pattern in a
> > 4.1
> > timeframe, if people prefer it.  If we're ever going to do 
> this, earlier is
> > better
> > (before too many valves that have to be changed get created).
> 
> I'm almost thinking that this should be done for 4.0 because 4.0 
> is going to
> be implementing the 2.3 spec and having two different filtering 
> mechanism's
> doing essentially the same thing doesn't make much sense to me...
> 
> -jon


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RE: Interceptors ( was Re: 3.x vs 4.0 architecture Q's

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 23:04
> 
> One appropriate question to ask yourself, when comparing, is 
> "what does having 15
> entry points give me that I cannot get with a single entry point 
> approach"?  If
> there is nothing significant, then it would seem cleaner to rely on a
> simpler-to-understand approach.

That is a problem also found in several parts of business application 
frameworks - those things that help you building a big User Interface 
to manipulate and extract information from a big Database.

You also find the same questions over GUI Frameworks - like Delphi's 
VCL or Java's Swing. And in database interface libraries...

In all of these you find events (Hooks) named "onThis", "beforeThat"
and "afterSomethingElse". And all this frameworks are built using 
Object Oriented Programming Techniques.

The advantage of Hooks is that the programmer is only exposed to the 
very narrow complexity of a very specific event. The framework takes
care of the rest.

When you build your own thing that you put in a logic/data pipe, 
sometimes you have to understand a lot more about the inner working
of the framework in order not to screw anything.


So, it is not as straightforward as you put it. It is a case by case 
thing.

 
> Also, IMHO, copying a web server (written in C, by the way) 
> architecture, in and
> of itself, is not a compelling argument to influence the design 
> of a servlet
> container written in an object oriented language like Java.  The 
> question is
> really "what's in it for Tomcat?".

Apache is not a complete model for building Tomcat, but provides some 
interesting ideas one can learn from. The small core general idea is
a classic in flexible systems, but the focus here is on the hooks.

Apache gives a tested answer to the question of which hooks are enough.


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RE: need another way with 2.2 servlets

[Paulo Gaspar]

Is it something you could solve with JSP custom taglibs?

Notice that it is quite easy to intermix JSPs with Servlets.

Just in case you don't know them, here are is a good introduction from Sun:
  http://java.sun.com/products/jsp/tutorial/TagLibrariesTOC.html
and some Apache starting pointers:
  http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs/index.html
  http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs/tutorial.html
  http://jakarta.apache.org/struts/index.html


Have fun,
Paulo


> -Original Message-
> From: Grobe, Gary [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 21:20
>
>
> I'm looking for a solution where I can insert code into pages (like applet
> tags into html, etc...) already served up by the server (and not know
> anything about the pages themselves). This seems to be do-able in 2.3
> servlet specs w/ filters, but as I'm running into several undocumented
> issues with Catalina (and I really don't know if it's even ready
> for this),
> I'd like to know if there's another way to do this with the 2.2 servlets
> specs.
>
> I'm running apache 1.3.14 & tomcat 3.2.1
> (I havn't been able to get tomcat 4.0 built because of undoc'd
> env vars and
> where they point ... so far)
>
> Adv(Thnxs)ance


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RE: Forming an opinion

[Paulo Gaspar]

Me and Jon are only posting constructive stuff now.
Don't kick us more!
=;o)

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Bernd Eilers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 14:28
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Forming an opinion
> 
> 
> 
> Hi there !
> 
> > How about splitting this list into two lists:
> > tomcat-dev for those interested in seeing
> > the development of Tomcat advance and
> > tomcat-flames for those arguing all the time
> > about nothing relevant ;-)
> 
> Well as I do not have commiter status this doesn't count but:
> 
> +1
> 


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RE: Urgent issue!

[Paulo Gaspar]

Just to be sure:

Does this mean that this is only a problem with Tomcat standalone and 
that using Tomcat with Apache is not a problem?

Thank you,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Nick Bauman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 19:10
> 
> 
> I think the problem is from some bugs in IE's HTTP/1.1 impl, which Apache
> out-of-box downgrades to a 1.0 conversation. Are you seeing this with TC
> standalone or with Apache in front of it?
> 
> But the CPU util is definitely a bug.
> 


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RE: Urgent issue!

[Paulo Gaspar]

Was this a problem with JServ too?

Thanks,
Paulo

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: Graham Wright [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Gesendet am: Donnerstag, 18. Januar 2001 12:15
>
> The problem does seem to be caused by IE but also varies depending of
> the version and service pack of Windows being used to run IE.
>
> The error itself does not cause problems but it seems to be occasionly
> causing Tomcat 3.2.1 to go into a 100% cpu cycle from which it never
> recovers.
>
> Graham
>
>
> > I have seen this when using Internet Explorer (IE) and the resource
> > is cached by IE. It seems like IE closes the connection before reading
> > the complete response in this case, so Tomcat complains that it
> > couldn't write the full response. I don't see a way to fix this at
> > the Tomcat end.
> >


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RE: Forming an opinion

[Paulo Gaspar]

Again, you could have made just the same remaks about Jon's
activity in this list.

I know I am acting sily by going for the last word just as he does,
but I wanted to see what would happen if someone else does the same.

I am a no one here. I can aford doing this here. I would like to see
this kind of thing complain being made about Jon too. The list was
going fine without his help.

Besides AFAIK (being me):
 - I only remember acting this way with Jon;
 - I strongly defend my oppinions but (except for now) always drop
   a non productive thread;
 - I don't remember to talk about my skils in a way that could be
   taken as "self agrandisement".

In general, what you say sounds a rather partial judgement but I am
not going to start saying how Jon is the bad guy and I am the good
one.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Thom May [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 11:56
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Forming an opinion
>
>
> * Paulo Gaspar ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote on Thu Jan 18,
> 2001 at 11:49:41 +0100:
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Remy Maucherat [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 04:29
> > > >
> > > > > -Original Message-
> > > > > From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 20:17
> > > > >
> > > > > on 1/17/01 10:28 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Why was it one of your worst days? I don't see how it
> could have been
> > > bad,
> > > > > nor do I see how that could influence your actions here by
> > > > > starting to send yet more flame bait.
> > > >
> > > > And, of course, you are biting the bait, the hook, the line...
> > > >
> > > > Enough was already said about that. Sam, Hans, Amy and I
> managed to talk
> > > > about it with no flames and Costin already apologized.
> > > >
> > > > What are you missing?
> > >
> > > However, I cannot say the same thing about you. Frankly,
> could you just
> > > *stop* that ? I don't think you fully realize it, but you're
> not helping
> > > either Costin or this project in any way by getting into this
> pointless
> > > discussion (other than proving to me that you are way more
> childish than
> > > what you think Jon is).
> >
> > It as nothing to do with Costin and all to do with Jon.
> I think actually it has rather more to do with you, Paulo. While I am not,
> am very unlikely to be, anything to do with the tomcat project -
> nothing against it,
> just my java coding sucks, which is why I'm a sysadmin ;) - I'm
> beginning to get
> _very_ fed up with your attitude. I can understand Costin's wish
> to release his
> "baby" as the next version of tomcat 3.x. I can certainly
> understand Jon and
> Craig's concerns as to supporting that baby, and wanting to move
> on with Tomcat-4.
> However. I have not seen anything from you recently except flame
> bait. FUD and
> self agrandisement.
> On a quick count of the last year or so's emails to tomcat-dev, I
> can see about
> 10 "useful"  emails from you. And many times that number of
> pointless flames
> that (a) are mostly personal attacks (b) all say _exactly_ the same thing,
> and (c) are mostly instances of wanting the last word.
> >
> > I only reply to what Jon says. I already explicitly said that
> and I clearly
> > stated that I will stop when he stops.
> >
> > To be clear, I am fed up that Jon:
> (does stuff, most of which you are also guilty of too)
> >
> > He always wants to have the last word. Usually (because he is
> part of the
> > clique?) no one asks him to stop. So, this time, I have just
> kept answering
> > to him to see what happens.
> Warped perception of reality? How does saying _exactly_ the same
> thing each
> time count as replying? that's not debating, that's just a
> (pointless) attack.
> I agree that Jon comes across fairly strongly, but he makes an attempt to
> answer people honestly and accurately, which is all a reasonable
> person can want.
>
> Can everyone _please_ try to take a step back and a deep breath?
> I note the cvs
> commits are almost non-existant at the moment, and this is
> obviously not an
> ideal situation for people like me who would like to be able to
> roll out a
> Servlet 2.3 based environment.
> Cheers,
> Thom
>
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RE: Forming an opinion

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 08:18
> 
> Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> 
> However, one of them is that there is no such thing as a 
> "version" of any Apache
> project until there is a vote to go that way, and elect a 
> particular code base
> to be that version.  See below for more.

No doubt about that. 

I already started using "3.x HEAD" instead of "3.3" - which seems to 
be acceptable.

I only did not do it earlier because no one stated that this would be 
an acceptable term. That should have been clearly stated in the list
already. I was told I should stop using "3.3" but was given no 
alternative.

Since everybody has been using "3.3" (including those that now ask not 
to do it) it should be clearly stated in the list that this should stop
and what the correct name is. 

That would be a way to avoid that people talking about the subject 
would be confused. And this - in the DEV list - looks so important to
me as avoiding people to think that the 3.3 version exists.
(Again, just in the DEV list. Talking about 3.3 in the USER list would
be a mess.)

Still, for me (and I believe that for must of the others) it has been 
just another name to call the "3.x HEAD". It has been clear that this
wasn't yet an approved version.

 
> > Catalina was a revolution, a proposal on following a different path.
> 
> It was, until it was elected as the code base for 4.0.  Now, it's the
> established direction for 4.x.
> 
> Note that there was no "jakarta-tomcat-4.1" branch, or any such 
> thing as "Tomcat
> 4.1", until the vote that took place last week.  Now, there is.  
> Such a thing hasn't happened for 3.3.

Clear too.

 
> [... Crystal clear explanation of the fix decided for the "3.3" 
> issue ...]

 
> > At the moment, for me (and possibly others) 3.3 is an evolution.
> 
> Regardless of whether or not this is true, it's still a new 
> version, and still
> needs to follow the same proposal and voting procedures.

Of course.

My statement is out of context. Notice that I was just disagree about
it being a "revolution" as Jon stated.

But this is a slightly subjective and there will always be different 
opinions.


> NOTE:  When this proposal is made, people who vote on it should 
> remember the
> following:
> * Electing a code base needs at least three +1 votes and no -1 votes.
>
> [...  a clear list of other rules ...]
> 
> (FYI:  I am on record -- see the PMC Meeting Minutes that will be 
> published
> shortly -- that I will *not* veto a release plan for 3.3 that 
> meets my concerns about support.)

I would never expect another thing from you.

But the veto power can still be misused by someone. That concern was 
already expressed by other people (Hans? I am not sure) in the list and 
a mechanism should be created to address that.

> >
> > Maybe (or maybe not) some people already see Costin's work as 5.0 but I
> > think that most of us don't go that far. I will not be thinking about
> > what 5.0 should be in the near future.
> 
> So far (to my knowledge), Costin has not proposed it for this 
> purpose.  

That was just an answer to something that Jon said.

> [... More crystal clear explanations about name rules...]
> 
> Craig McClanahan

Thank you very much Craig. I still had not seen all this stuff put together
in such crystal clear way.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

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RE: Forming an opinion

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 04:42
>
> on 1/17/01 7:43 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > 1. You are flaming Costin again (is that harassment?);
>
> I don't see a flame there. I'm simply speaking truth. Costin's actions and
> statements have clearly shown that he believes in censorship. He
> even tried to bring up motions in the meeting to create censorship over
> what people say on the list.

You should. I am not even going to say what I think about the kind of
pressures you make.

> > 2. Whatever the PMC decided was not published yet. How can I disrespect
> > that.
>
> The PMC was attended by ~25 people and had open phone lines for which you
> could have listened in on. I have also told you what has been decided on.
> That is what you are disrespecting.

I already told you that I have a life out of Tomcat. Other priorities. What
part did you not understand.


> > What do you know about what my experience is?
>
> If you have experience then show it by acting like you do. So far, you
> haven't done any of that, therefore, I can conclude that you either cannot
> act like you have experience or you don't have any. My judgment call on
> that is that you don't have much experience.

Why do you judge so much?
Should I also tell what the way you act suggests?
It getting personal the way of Open Source (since you are so experient in
the "way of Open Source")?


> > "Costin and others"?
> > Give names, dates and complete the police work with some hard
> evidence that
> > allows you to proceed to an arrest!
>
> Ok, all of the people actively sending commits to Tomcat 3.x.

I see more support from Costin and those others than from you. That is
what I clearly see in the list.


> > AGAIN: What concrete evidence do you have that it will not?
>
> I have seen releases made in the past that have been buggy. For
> example 3.0.
> That actually hurt this project quite a bit by increasing the amount of
> support that was needed as well as the fact that in many people's mind, it
> set a precedent that people have been trying to combat for a long
> time...that Tomcat is slow and buggy and that the code is hard to
> understand
> and read.

Why does an already distant past say anything about the present?

I don't even think that the circumstance and people involved in 3.x HEAD are
the same as with 3.0. They are being quite systematic about bugs, did you
notice that?

Notice also that I got to an accepted name for 3.3 (3.x HEAD) without your
help. I am not getting anything constructive from you even when I ask.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


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RE: Forming an opinion

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: Remy Maucherat [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 04:29
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 20:17
> > >
> > > on 1/17/01 10:28 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Why was it one of your worst days? I don't see how it could have been
> bad,
> > > nor do I see how that could influence your actions here by
> > > starting to send yet more flame bait.
> >
> > And, of course, you are biting the bait, the hook, the line...
> >
> > Enough was already said about that. Sam, Hans, Amy and I managed to talk
> > about it with no flames and Costin already apologized.
> >
> > What are you missing?
>
> However, I cannot say the same thing about you. Frankly, could you just
> *stop* that ? I don't think you fully realize it, but you're not helping
> either Costin or this project in any way by getting into this pointless
> discussion (other than proving to me that you are way more childish than
> what you think Jon is).

It as nothing to do with Costin and all to do with Jon.

I only reply to what Jon says. I already explicitly said that and I clearly
stated that I will stop when he stops.

To be clear, I am fed up that Jon:
 - tells everybody what they should do;
 - judges and condemns people without knowing how their lives are (as with,
   but not only, the several remarks about people not dialing-in in the PMC
   meeting);
 - makes dirty insinuations about others professional lives;
 - flames people;
 - bullies people;
 - etc.

He always wants to have the last word. Usually (because he is part of the
clique?) no one asks him to stop. So, this time, I have just kept answering
to him to see what happens.

It surprises me that, instead of asking Jon (the PMC member that should set
the example) to stop, you are asking me.


> I'll not veto his proposal just because I'm a TC 4 developer. Actually,
> depending on how he presents it and what he plans to do, I'll +0 or +1 it.
> I had been looking at the HEAD of jakarta-tomcat and I have to say that :
> - last time I tested it, it was faster than TC 3.2 (good)
> - it was also very buggy (bad, but that may have changed since I
> last tried
> it), so I think the support issue is essential
> - the code organization looked cleaner (good)

I never expected other than a fair judgment from you.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


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RE: Forming an opinion

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 04:00
>
> on 1/17/01 6:44 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >> How do you know that what is in the cvs HEAD is better than 3.2?
> >> I have yet to see proof of that other than Costin's claims.
> >
> > And the other committers and Larry and...
>
> Give me concrete evidence, not claims.

Man, you only claim the opposite and you don't even seem to know 3.3's
code.


> > I am talking about names and you are throwing bureaucracy at me.
>
> Yes. I am.

Glad to have it clear.


> Yes. I am going to tell you what what decided and what you should follow.

LOL
Someone else must make it official.


> > Even if the majority of the PMC thinks one way, I still have the right
> > to think otherwise and talk accordingly.
>
> Unlike Costin, I am fully against censorship and therefore am not going to
> disagree with you. However, when something is *decided* and
> *agreed* upon at
> the PMC level, it needs to be taken seriously and respected. This is what
> you are *not* doing.

1. You are flaming Costin again (is that harassment?);
2. Whatever the PMC decided was not published yet. How can I disrespect
   that.


> >> Again, you simply don't understand how development models work.
> >
> > Sure! I went trough 12 years of software development without
> having a clue.
>
> Open Source Software Development != Closed Source Software Development.
>
> My assertion is that you are lacking a clue with regards to OSS
> development.

LOL
What do you know about what my experience is?


> > I am glad you are so happy for thinking you know what I
> understand or not.
>
> Then word your statements in such a way to make me believe that you do
> understand. So far, you haven't done that.

I do not need that _you_ to believe me.


> > What concrete evidence to you have to support yours?
>
> Costin and others have no been providing any sort of support for others on
> the mailing list. That is clear. Read the archives of this list.

LOL
"Costin and others"?
Give names, dates and complete the police work with some hard evidence that
allows you to proceed to an arrest!


> Now, what concrete evidence do you have that releasing CVS head
> as 3.3 "will help"?

This is pathetic!

AGAIN: What concrete evidence do you have that it will not?

Those that claim it will help know the code. You know zip!
You hate the thing! You dont even touch it!


> > Project dead line. Know the concept?
>
> You seem to have plenty of time to answer my emails.

This is break time. It is not an effort. I type fast. None of you business.


Have fun,
Paulo


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RE: Forming an opinion

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 02:58
>
> on 1/17/01 5:50 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Nope. No proposal for that has been made yet.

I am talking about names and you are throwing bureaucracy at me.

> How do you know that what is in the cvs HEAD is better than 3.2?
> I have yet to see proof of that other than Costin's claims.

And the other committers and Larry and...

> > 3.3 is the obvious name and the discussion has always been around having
> > it or not.
>
> It may be obvious to you, however there has never been a proposal
> to make it so.

I am talking about names and you are throwing bureaucracy at me.


> > Catalina was a revolution, a proposal on following a different path.
> >
> > At the moment, for me (and possibly others) 3.3 is an evolution.
>
> No it isn't. That is where you are 100% wrong. 3.3 is a complete
> refactor of
> the core code and is therefore much more than just an evolution.
> If you had
> listened in on the conversation yesterday, like you should have, you would
> have had this clarified for you.

If you are happier that way, I am glad you keep telling what I should do.

I may have different ideas and still consider that to be an evolution.

Even if the majority of the PMC thinks one way, I still have the right
to think otherwise and talk accordingly.


> Again, you simply don't understand how development models work.

Sure! I went trough 12 years of software development without having a clue.


> > Maybe you feel happy has the beholder of the Truth but I do not feel I
> > have understanding problems when I do not agree with you.
>
> It is clear you don't understand things and now you are being left behind
> because you *choose* to not participate in the meeting where these things
> where clarified and discussed.

I am glad you are so happy for thinking you know what I understand or not.

Copy/Paste from my previous posting:

Not your business why I did or did not.  (participate in the meeting)
 - Maybe Boss wouldn't like if I was connected to the USA for such a long
   time (I am in Europe, in case you didn't notice);
 - Maybe I was at a customer;
 - Maybe I had a dead line.


> > My main motivation in life is not supporting Costin. My main motivation
> > here is scratching my itches and I think that 3.3 will help.
>
> You *think*. What concrete evidence do you have to support that thought?

What concrete evidence to you have to support yours?


> [... a lot of bureaucracy crap that Jon uses when he has nothing more
>  constructive to argument (i.e.: quite often)
> ...]

> Therefore, it is in your best interest to quit emailing me ...

I can stop when you stop. Give the example!
Remember: I only answer.


> ...and to figure out
> how you are going to prove that Tomcat 3.x will continue to be properly
> supported.

I will help several other people proving that.


> > Supporting him is important, but I have other priorities too.
>
> Like?

Are you my mother?


> > In the meantime, you arguments are so poor that I do not have to spend
> > so much brain power has if I was coding or something. It is kind of
> > having a break - I need breaks too you know?
>
> What part of my argument is poor?

What do you mean with "What part"?


> > You know nothing about me, my life and my schedule. It would be polite
> > if you would refrain to judge how I should spend my time.
>
> I haven't made any suggestions about how you should spend your time.

You did several. (Loss of short term memory again!)


> [... Some crap about how I should have done things! ...]


> > - Maybe I had a dead line.
>
> Go borrow a phone line.

Project dead line. Know the concept?


> Your reasons are seriously undermining everything that you give as an
> argument.

The idea is not giving you reasons. The idea is to tell you that I may
have a life outside Tomcat and other troubles to take care.

And it is not of you business.

Maybe you should not judge the people that weren't there so lightly.


> > I have seen other people defending the usefulness of 3.3 and
> that didn't sink
> > anything in your brain.
>
> THAT ISN'T THE QUESTION! Fuck! how many times does that need to
> be repeated
> to you?

For me, it is the main point. Keep repeating.


> > Beholder of the truth syndrome again?
>
> Beholder of a complete lack of ability to understand basic concepts
> syndrome?

LOL

> thanks,
> -jon

You're welcome,
Paulo



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RE: Forming an opinion

[Paulo Gaspar]

First, you write too much about a name when the question has always been
having or not a 3.3 in the 3.x branch.

Most of us (for whom having a 3.3 is interesting) are still not concerned
about having or not a revolution and a Tomcat 5. It is too soon to be
concerned about when our main priority is to have something better than
3.2 for production _real soon_.

3.3 is the obvious name and the discussion has always been around having
it or not.

Catalina was a revolution, a proposal on following a different path.

At the moment, for me (and possibly others) 3.3 is an evolution.

Maybe (or maybe not) some people already see Costin's work as 5.0 but I
think that most of us don't go that far. I will not be thinking about
what 5.0 should be in the near future.

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 01:47
>
>
> did...he called his revolution "Catalina". Why is this such a difficult
> concept for you to understand?

Answered above.

Maybe you feel happy has the beholder of the Truth but I do not feel I
have understanding problems when I do not agree with you.


> > Or we have another kind of jobs and so.
> > (-"Hey boss, can I call the US just for some hours?")
>
> However you can spend time on this list sending email and arguing over the
> same points over and over again?

Man, I already pointed out that I am mostly answering to something you say.
If you can stop, I can stop too.
- My answers are short;
- I type fast;
- It is not your damn business.

> Lets see, I spent 8+ hours in a meeting
> yesterday over crap that you are trying to back Costin on. How about
> supporting Costin when he really needed it?

My main motivation in life is not supporting Costin. My main motivation
here is scratching my itches and I think that 3.3 will help.

Supporting him is important, but I have other priorities too.

Besides, while you are nagging me, you are not nagging him. Maybe he
can work a bit better that way.

In the meantime, you arguments are so poor that I do not have to spend
so much brain power has if I was coding or something. It is kind of
having a break - I need breaks too you know?

You know nothing about me, my life and my schedule. It would be polite
if you would refrain to judge how I should spend my time.


> >> So, Paulo (who also didn't bother to dial in)
> >
> > Should I show you my Agenda?
> > Do you want to organize my schedule for me too?
>
> No, I expect that if you are going to spend time on this list
> sending email
> all day long and responding to me that you would have enough of a care in
> this project to actually dial in and express your opinions in the forum
> where it mattered the most.

Not your business why I did or did not.
 - Maybe Boss wouldn't like if I was connected to the USA for such a long
   time (I am in Europe, in case you didn't notice);
 - Maybe I was at a customer;
 - Maybe I had a dead line.


> You might have also gotten a chance
> to listen to
> the same things that I have been saying all along repeated to
> Costin by many
> other people in a room. Maybe the real facts of this whole mess would have
> then sunk in to your brain as well.

I have seen other people defending the usefulness of 3.3 and that didn't
sink
anything in your brain.

Beholder of the truth syndrome again?


> thanks,
>
> -jon

You're welcome,

Paulo


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RE: Forming an opinion

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 01:01
>
> > Enough was already said about that. Sam, Hans, Amy and I managed to talk
> > about it with no flames and Costin already apologized.
>
> He apologized for taking things personally and not actually what
> he did and then attempted to get us to feel sorry for him because it was a
> hard day. I don't buy it at all.

Sure! Kick him harder!


> > It might be a bit too late for that, since we all have been referring to
it
> > as Tomcat 3.3 during the last weeks (you included and a lot). Whomever
has
> > to become confused, already is.
>
> Right and I'm asking that references to 3.3 stop and we agreed
> upon that in
> the meeting. Yet again, I'm having to repeat myself to Costin because he
> refuses to listen. In fact, right after the discussion about stopping
> calling it 3.3 (which he agreed to), Costin turned around and
> referred to it as 3.3.

Which, of course, would confuse the people in the room that just had eard
about it.

> Then he did it again on this list. I just don't get it.
> If you agree to something STICK TO IT. Period.

Other people already use the "3.3" forbiden expression and that didn't
disturb you that much.

So, what about being a bit constructive (for a change) and tell us what
are we supposed to call to Tomcat 3.3?
(Oops! I did again!)

> Now I get flamed (again) for trying to enforce what we agreed on in the
> meeting. WTF?

I didn't flame you. It was a quite polite remark!
If my posting was a flame, how shoud I call yours?


> p.s. The phone dialin attendance was dismal. No one from this list who has
> been directly concerned with what is going on and having
> commented on things
> bothered to dial in. Obviously all of you who *really* care about
> this whole
> matter don't care *that* much.

Or we have another kind of jobs and so.
(-"Hey boss, can I call the US just for some hours?")


> So, Paulo (who also didn't bother to dial in)

Should I show you my Agenda?
Do you want to organize my schedule for me too?

> I suggest that you stop
> discussing this any further and wait for the meeting notes to be
> published.

Man, I am just answering to you! If you are able to stop, I am sure
I can do it too!


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


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RE: Forming an opinion

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 20:17
>
> on 1/17/01 10:28 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Why was it one of your worst days? I don't see how it could have been bad,
> nor do I see how that could influence your actions here by
> starting to send yet more flame bait.

And, of course, you are biting the bait, the hook, the line...

Enough was already said about that. Sam, Hans, Amy and I managed to talk
about it with no flames and Costin already apologized.

What are you missing?


> Also, I'm going to ask YET AGAIN and which we ALL agreed on in the
> meeting...
>
> Do not refer to Tomcat 3.3 as a version number. Tomcat 3.3 does not exist
> before the proposal that you still need to make and should not be referred
> to at all. Pick another name, it will confuse people by referring to it as
> Tomcat 3.3 because you are setting expectations that may or may not ever
> materialize (depending on the majority committer consensus here
> according to the rules).

It might be a bit too late for that, since we all have been referring to it
as Tomcat 3.3 during the last weeks (you included and a lot). Whomever has
to
become confused, already is.

Anyway, this is not the User list.


Have fun,

Paulo Gaspar


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RE: Forming an opinion

[Paulo Gaspar]

I agree Costin. Avoid the flame bait.

I am willing to help on code review and - if/when I know the beast 
better - documentation. My schedule gets a bit lighter next week.

I will, of course, ask loads of things. But I hope I will mostly
need pointers to things.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 17:17
> 
> > P.S. the other conclusion of the PMC ( as I
> > understand it ) was that I'm a bad person that
> > can't be trusted, and all work for 3.2 was done by
> > Craig alone ( my apologies to  Larry, Henri and
> > Nacho ).
> 
> Flamebait such as the above does not help your cause.
> 
> Craig filled a void  in 3.2 that you, Larry, Henri, Nacho and most
> signifcantly myself left.  Any 3.3 proposal will need to include 
> provisions
> to address this void.
> 
> - Sam Ruby


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RE: Jakarta PMC Meeting Agenda / Info - Is more than just 3.x vs 4.x

[Paulo Gaspar]

BTW, you know the Giant Java Tree project, don't you?


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: GOMEZ Henri [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 13:42
> 
> I'm a +1000 to see someone like CJAN (CPAN for java) came to life.
> 


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RE: [Fwd: Jakarta PMC Meeting Agenda / Info]

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 06:05
>
> on 1/15/01 9:03 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > The reasons why there are advantages for (at least) the next year or so
> > on having both 3.3 and 4.x were already stated so often today...
>
> 3.3 will get released. That isn't the question.

GREAT! I was getting "confused" about that.


> > ...and also how 3.3 commiters are scratching an itch and will not focus
> > on 4.x while the itch is there...
>
> Not true at all. Costin has said that he will not work on 4.x. Again, my
> point being that perhaps it would be smarter to encourage people
> to work on
> improving 4.x more quickly instead of having this fork of developer
> resources working on 3.x.

Some of us have production sites _now_. It is smarter for us to do whatever
keeps/gets those sites running ASAP.

Scratching the itch, remember?


> If Costin and everyone else had put all of their energy on
> working on 4.x in
> the first place, we wouldn't be in the same situation we are in today and
> people would have been more willing to migrate from 3.0/3.1 to 4.x because
> the improvement would have been more clear. Instead, now we are
> stuck in the
> position of having to give people 3.2 and potentially 3.3 because people
> have invested a lot into building on top of it. Where does it stop?

"If" here means "maybe". Can anyone be sure that 4.0 would be production
ready now?

I am sure that all that people can still be motivated to migrate to 4.x
_when_ it is ready for production if it has real advantages - and I am not
doubting it may have.

Just because you want it now, it does not mean that you can drag people
with different needs. The reason 3.3 is there is just because there are
several committers with those different needs.

So, I guess "it stops" when 4.0 is able to satisfy those different needs
too.


Paulo


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RE: Jakarta PMC Meeting Agenda / Info

[Paulo Gaspar]

I am terribly sorry Sam. It was Larry.

Sorry again,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 08:46
>
>
> Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> >
> > Sam and others already stated that 3.3 is easier to maintain.
> > They did take a look at the code.
>
> Not me.
>
> - Sam Ruby
>


> -Original Message-
> From: Larry Isaacs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 15:35
>
> ...
>
> I think in the long run, the community will be better served by a released
> 3.3.  It may have some different bugs, but I think it will eventually have
> fewer bugs and quirks and be more maintainable as well.
>
> ...
>
> Cheers,
> Larry
>


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RE: [Fwd: Jakarta PMC Meeting Agenda / Info]

[Paulo Gaspar]

The reasons why there are advantages for (at least) the next year or so
on having both 3.3 and 4.x were already stated so often today...

...and also how 3.3 commiters are scratching an itch and will not focus
on 4.x while the itch is there...


How is your short term memory doing?
What is your interest on Tomcat besides history?

And this Sun fixation? Craig doesn't seem to have a problem with Sun,
does he?


Have fun,
Paulo


> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 05:40
>
> ...
>
> Your comments above again restate the need to fork Tomcat 3.x out
> of Jakarta
> in order to allow the developers to focus on creating the best *single*
> container out there instead of being constantly belittled by your comments
> about how our future product has faults and having you fix those things in
> the older version instead of the version that everyone agreed
> upon as being
> the future.
>
> Does that make any sort of sense to you?
>
> -jon


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RE: Jakarta PMC Meeting Agenda / Info

[Paulo Gaspar]

Yes, poor Jon!!!
I was the one that started and all hum?

Have fun,
Paulo

P.S.: It was just an interesting one day experiment: trying to be as
insisting as him and never quit (as he usualy doesn't). I can tell you
I will not repeat it very often - takes too much of my time.

> -Original Message-
> From: Rob S. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 03:39
>
>
> Paulo, cut the shit.  I'm 23 and I have the requisite maturity to
> not behave
> like this.  If you want to talk, talk, but enough attacking/provoking Jon.
>
> - r


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RE: Jakarta PMC Meeting Agenda / Info

[Paulo Gaspar]

Since you usually agree with Hans and everybody else does too, maybe
he is just a much better communicator than you and maybe he is doing
a much better job.

So, why don't you just follow the very good advise?


Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 03:13
> 
> 
> > Than maybe it would be a good idea to shut up and let Hans do 
> the talking?
> 
> How should I respond to this, with a comment about your mother or 
> something?
> 
> -jon
> 
> 


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RE: Breath again ???

[Paulo Gaspar]

Agreed!

Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Peter Donald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 02:55
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I noticed that the list is starting to devolve a little so perhaps the
> opinion of a complete outsider with no bias (that I am aware of) 
> could help ;)
[...clear perspective of 3.3 situation...]

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RE: Jakarta PMC Meeting Agenda / Info - What happens if a 3.3 proposal gets a -1

[Paulo Gaspar]

Thank you very much Hans.

Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Hans
> Bergsten
> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 03:05
> 
> 
> Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> > 
> > What happens if a 3.3 proposal gets a -1?
> 
[...very clear clarification...]

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RE: Jakarta PMC Meeting Agenda / Info

[Paulo Gaspar]

Jon, It is the 2nd time I see you making this kind of remark and it stinks.

This kind of argumentation is quite dirty, even for you.


Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 03:13
>
> on 1/15/01 5:58 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > The lead developer for Tomcat has disappeared 1 year ago ( from
> any active
> > development or support in tomcat, he's still around doing other projects
> > ). That's BTW the best prove of a project viability.
>
> Right and you picked it up as your paid job until you were moved
> to another
> project within Sun. Since you have been so forward today, would you also
> like to expand on why you were switched over to an XML project internally?


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