Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Glenn wrote: Job was blameless and upright, but did not have sinless perfection. Glenn, I like you, and surely do not want to offend you, but this statement is blasphemy. To blatantly contradict the Bible for no other reason than because it does not go along with your theology is blasphemy. As we read the book of Job, we see from the outset that Job was perfect, upright, someone who feared God and turned away from evil (Job 1:1). Then as we read further, we observe that God brags about Job's righteousness and blamelessness. Even Satan had not a single sin to accuse Job of before God. The only recourse that Satan had was to accuse Job of being righteous only because God had protected him. Satan bet God that he could get Job to sin, if God would only allow Satan to hurt Job. Clearly, if Job had sinned prior to this, Satan, the accuser that he is, would have just brought up that sin in accusation against Job. The truth was that there was NO SIN that could be laid to Job's charge. So, God gave Satan permission to attack, to test just how righteous Job really was. In Job 1:21, it plainly says that Job did not sin, even in the midst of this attack of Satan. Job was taken back by the attack. He was confused as to why he would suffer these things. Some friends came and tried to console Job. At first, they were quiet, but soon they began to talk. What was the sum of their speech? They believed that all men sinned, even Job. They were convinced that Job surely sinned somewhere, perhaps some sin of ommission somewhere, so if Job would just confess himself as a sinner, then all would be better. They considered Job self-righteous, because he maintained his innocence and continued to profess that he had not sinned. The testimony of the Bible here is that Job's friends were WRONG! Job had not sinned. If Job had complied with their constant urging to confess that he had sinned somewhere, even if he was unaware of it, THEN JOB WOULD HAVE SINNED by making such a confession. Why? Because that would be a false confession, and a foolish one. It would be a mockery of truth to confess that you have sinned when you have not sinned. The Bible testifies again and again, that Job kept his integrity, and continued his confession, that he had no sin. The Bible also testifies for Job, by the VOICE OF THE SPIRIT, that in all of this, Job did not sin (e.g., Job 2:10). So for you to lay sin to Job's charge puts you in the position of agreeing with Job's friends who God became angry at, and it places you in a position to contradict and blaspheme against the testimony of Scripture concerning Job. Was Job ultimately perfect in the sense that he had arrived and could be no better than he was? No. But was Job perfect in the sense that he did not sin? Yes, he was. That is what the Bible says. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Glenn - I think you realize what you have said here. :-) You have said a perfect person cannot say he is perfect or he would not be perfect. However, Job claimed he had not sinned/perfect. Therefore, Job sinned. :-) Glenn wrote: A person who claims to be perfect flatters himself and is calling it virtue when in fact God calls it vice. I already explained, in case you missed it, that a perfect person does not call himself perfect, lest he sin by doing so. However, that does not mean that there are no perfect people (meaning, doing the works of Christ all that God expects from them, including being free of sin).
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Geneva Study Bible 16:2 All the ways of a man [are] b clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits. (b) He shows by it that man flatters himself in his doings, calling that virtue, which God terms vice. A person who claims to be perfect flatters himself and is calling it virtue when in fact God calls it vice. Glenn wrote: Second, it is sin to judge my motives. You are doing this which means you are not perfect. DavidM - I'm not judging your motives; I'm revealing them. :-)
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
David Miller wrote: The Bible teaches that TRUSTING IN WORKS nullifies grace. It does not teach that works nullify grace. If it did, then all the righteous men from Abraham to the apostle John who had good works would have had the grace of God nullified in their life. What a ridiculous notion! Please present Scripture to explain your position, or retract your statement that works nullify grace. Glenn wrote: If you agree with Michael's statement then the above doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps you are gleaning something from Michael's statement that I am not. I see no contradiction, nor why what I wrote above would not make sense to you. Michael wrote: To Paul, a man is not saved by works, - For by grace are you saved through faith... not of works, lest any man shall boast. Yet he said let the believer's life be full of good works. He never uses it as a condition of getting saved. All that Michael said here is that salvation is of faith, not of works. He made no indication that works nullify grace, such as you did. Perhaps Michael can tell us whether he believes that works nullify grace. David Miller wrote: Back to the Bible. The Bible teaches that faith, which is a work of grace in our lives, is PERFECTED by works, NOT NULLIFIED BY WORKS. "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and BY WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT?" (Jam 2:22) Glenn wrote: If you agree with Michael then I don't see any benefit in jockeying over words. This is not a semantic argument. It is important to understand that saving faith produces good works, and that good works do not nullify grace. If good works nullify grace, then we had better all start sinning before we nullify grace by our good works and become damned by our good works! Glenn wrote: Glenn wrote: Who am I? I am a sinner saved by grace. I am justified - just as if I never sinned. I am claiming no person, including you, is perfect, because of the Biblical definition of perfection, "Be ye perfect as I am perfect". Your definition of perfection is not he same as this verse. You also confuse perfection with maturity, in my opinion. Was Jesus perfect? All his life? Was he perfect when he was 5 years old? Was he mature or immature at 5 years old? Glenn - With the above statement you have made my case. So it was no "ad hominem" argument. This kind of perfection is not Biblical perfection. "Be ye perfect as I am perfect" means be perfect as God is perfect. God has perfect love. God does not grow. Perfection cannot be improved upon. Perfection mature. Why? "Be ye perfect as God is perfect". Glenn, there are two different ways that the Bible uses the word "perfect." There is the idea of indicating "completed" and no room to grow, but that is not the only way that the word perfect is used in the Bible. Michael D: I am glad you introduced this. That was what I was pointing to with the question about Jesus at different ages...I think your statements below are central to this whole issue. Was Jesus as perfect as the Father? In other words, did Jesus obey his own teaching, or was he the kind of teacher that says do as I say but not as I do? Was Jesus as perfect as the heavenly Father? Or would you say that Jesus was not perfect because he "learned obedience by the things which he suffered" (Heb. 5:8)? You said, "God does not grow." Was Jesus God? Did Jesus grow? If Jesus was God, and Jesus grew, then God can grow. Michael D: I would think this is stretching it a little here, David. As God, Jesus cannot grow, but as man He can. Remember, when he became a man, he did not try to hold on to His equality with God, but made Himself of no reputation... How He is able to be God, and lay aside His divine attributes to experience life as a man and be only able to do what He sees His father do (...I can of mine own self do nothing...) beats me, but Paul says in I Tim 3:16 that the mystery of godliness is great i.e. God was manifest in the flesh... etc. Peace be with you. David Miller. Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Works relate to the kingdom, salvation is free James Templeton -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 15 October 2002 22:10 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test Christian living is perfected by works. Salvation is not of works. Salvation is not perfected by works. I gave the Bible for this when I answered the true or false test. Back to the Bible. The Bible teaches that faith, which is a work of grace in our lives, is PERFECTED by works, NOT NULLIFIED BY WORKS. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and BY WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT? (Jam 2:22)
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
PREGood to hear from you Bro James! Laura -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
That's how I see it, and DavidM sees it that way too, if I understand him. It's that perfect thing that gets him all riled up. :-) If I understand him, if you don't believe in the perfect doctrine then you are soft on sin. That just is not correct with me. My understanding is simple. Works and receiving Christ do NOT mix. After you claim to have received Christ, and you have not t worked for Christ, you did not receive Christ. Faith without works is dead. \ I, personally, while having met a great many men of God, have never met a perfect person. Works relate to the kingdom, salvation is free James Templeton
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Please send a Bible verse for Peter. Thanks. Remember, Peter says that after we have suffered a while, God will perfect us. He also said, that he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Glenn wrote: Works nullify grace in salvation.Rom. 4:4-5; Rom. 11:6. You are misusing these verses. Neither of these verses say that works nullify grace. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Rom 4:4-5) This passage clearly says that a man is justified without works, by faith. That is not the same thing as saying that works nullify grace. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. (Rom 11:5-6) This passage says that election is not of works, but of grace. It does not say that works nullify grace. The truth is that there is no passage in the Bible that says that works nullify grace. Such a teaching is false and unBiblical. Glenn wrote: Works and salvation are not the same. I agree. Glenn wrote: If one is depending upon his perfection of works for salvation then that nullifies grace. I agree. As I said before, trusting in works nullifies grace, but works themselves are a fruit of faith and do not nullify grace. Glenn wrote: The verses you are using you are misusing. David Miller wrote: No, I am not misusing them. Read the whole epistle of 1 John and believe it. Glenn wrote: 1 John is about gnosticism, if I understand it. I don't believe that, but even if the gnostics did appear prior to the second century, what is your statement supposed to mean? Does that mean we don't need to read it? Does that mean it does not apply to us today? Does that mean the teachings are tainted or not part of God's Word? Why would you react to my urging you to read 1 John and believe it with the statement of, 1 John is about gnosticism? Glenn wrote: Agreed, we OUGHT to but I have never met a person on TT or in person who does so perfectly. NEVER. But you would never know if you had if you yourself have sin in your life. What criteria do you use to judge such matters, whether or not they do what you would do in certain situations? I do not judge whether others are perfect, so I could never make the statement, I have never met such a person. Neither do I judge myself, so I could never say, I am perfect. What I do know is what God says about the matter, and he says that some men are perfect. I believe God and the Bible on this matter over what you say. No offense intended, but that is what you say to the Mormons, so I think you can understand it when I say it to you about this subject. Glenn wrote: And we DO live perfectly from time to time, I'm glad to see you recognize that! This is a great foundation, because many Christians say they sin in thought and deed many times every day. Glenn wrote: but not perfectly ALL the time. I have yet to meet a person who never sinned after he was saved. Go by what God says in the Bible rather than your lack of experience in meeting a perfect person. David Miller wrote: What verses in the Bible do you use to support your teaching that nobody is perfect like Jesus is perfect? Glenn wrote: I gave many verses in the true/false test. You gave verses, but not one of them said that God does not consider anyone perfect. Job 1:1 reveals that God considered Job perfect. Glenn wrote: Now the reason I say, no one is without sin because sin is much more than not stealing, cheating, etc., to sin. I agree that sin is much more than that. Sin is whenever you do not walk in love. Sin is: Transgression 1 John 3:4 Unrighteousness 1 John 5:17 Omission of known duty James 4:17 What is not of faith Rom. 6:23 Thought of foolishness Prov. 24:9 Right. I agree. Glenn wrote: Again, David no lives in perfect peace, perfect love, perfect faith. That is perfection. That does not exist except in Jesus Christ. Now you are using the term differently than how I use the term perfect. As I said before, the Bible has two uses of the word perfect. One sense is in the way of being complete with no room to grow. I would agree wholeheartedly that nobody on earth is perfect in this sense. Neither was Jesus when he was in the flesh, perfect in this sense. However, another use of the term is to indicate that someone is walking holy and without sin, and doing all that God expects of him for his level of maturity. That is the sense in which I say that Christians can be perfect. Glenn wrote: Question: What denomination teaches this I am perfect doctrine? Or what group of Christians teach this or used to teach this? John Wesley, who founded Methodism, taught Christian Perfection. My belief about Christian perfetion is very similar to his. Charles Finney of the Presbyterians also taught it. Glenn wrote: Are you perfect? This question is a temptation and snare to those who walk in
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Grace nullifies works. See below. "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." (Rom 11:5-6)
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Glenn wrote: Works nullify grace in salvation.Rom. 4:4-5; Rom. 11:6. Glenn - You agree below but deny here. You are misusing these verses. Neither of these verses say that works nullify grace. "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Rom 4:4-5) This passage clearly says that a man is justified without works, by faith. That is not the same thing as saying that works nullify grace. "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." (Rom 11:5-6) This passage says that election is not of works, but of grace. It does not say that works nullify grace. The truth is that there is no passage in the Bible that says that works nullify grace. Such a teaching is false and unBiblical. Glenn - You just are not making sense to me. Everytime Michael says we are not justified by works you agree but then go off on this perfection thing. I have rejected it because of the discussion on TT. I just sent you a verse that teaches works nullify grace when it comes to salvation. Furthermore, I don't believe for a second you can work to even continue in salvation. Glenn wrote: Works and salvation are not the same. I agree. Glenn wrote: If one is depending upon his perfection of works for salvation then that nullifies grace. I agree. As I said before, trusting in works nullifies grace, but works themselves are a fruit of faith and do not nullify grace. Glenn - Agreed. Glenn wrote: The verses you are using you are misusing. David Miller wrote: No, I am not misusing them. Read the whole epistle of 1 John and believe it. Glenn wrote: 1 John is about gnosticism, if I understand it. I don't believe that, but even if the gnostics did appear prior to the second century, what is your statement supposed to mean? Does that mean we don't need to read it? Does that mean it does not apply to us today? Does that mean the teachings are tainted or not part of God's Word? Why would you react to my urging you to read 1 John and believe it with the statement of, "1 John is about gnosticism"? Glenn wrote: Agreed, we OUGHT to but I have never met a person on TT or in person who does so perfectly. NEVER. But you would never know if you had if you yourself have sin in your life. What criteria do you use to judge such matters, whether or not they do what you would do in certain situations? Glenn - Criteria? I have said over and over, The criteria of Jesus the Christ. None meet it. I do not judge whether others are perfect, so I could never make the statement, "I have never met such a person." Neither do I judge myself, so I could never say, "I am perfect." What I do know is what God says about the matter, and he says that some men are perfect. I believe God and the Bible on this matter over what you say. No offense intended, but that is what you say to the Mormons, so I think you can understand it when I say it to you about this subject. Glenn wrote: And we DO live perfectly from time to time, I'm glad to see you recognize that! This is a great foundation, because many Christians say they sin in thought and deed many times every day. Glenn wrote: but not perfectly ALL the time. I have yet to meet a person who never sinned after he was saved. Go by what God says in the Bible rather than your lack of experience in meeting a perfect person. Glenn - God says we do not continue in sin. I do NOT see the Bible teaching we do not sin ever. David Miller wrote: What verses in the Bible do you use to support your teaching that nobody is perfect like Jesus is perfect? Glenn wrote: I gave many verses in the true/false test. You gave verses, but not one of them said that God does not consider anyone perfect. Job 1:1 reveals that God considered Job perfect. Glenn - My point exactly. Job was not perfect like Jesus Christ was perfect. Glenn wrote: Now the reason I say, no one is without sin because sin is much more than not stealing, cheating, etc., to sin. I agree that sin is much more than that. Sin is whenever you do not walk in love. Sin is: Transgression 1 John 3:4 Unrighteousness 1 John 5:17 Omission of known duty James 4:17 What is not of faith Rom. 6:23 Thought of foolishness Prov. 24:9 Right. I agree. Glenn wrote: Again, David no lives in perfect peace, perfect love, perfect faith. That is perfection. That does not exist except in Jesus Christ. Now you are using the term differently than how I use the term perfect. As I said before, the Bible has two uses of the word perfect. One sense is in the way of being complete with no room to grow. I would agree wholeheartedly that nobody on earth is perfect in this sense. Neither was Jesus when he was
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Glenn wrote: You agree below but deny here. Glenn, the word nullify means to have the effect of cancelling something out. When you say that works nullify grace, then you are saying that when a person does good works, he nullifies grace in his life. That is a preposterous notion. Maybe you have something else in mind when you say that works nullify grace? David Miller wrote: You gave verses, but not one of them said that God does not consider anyone perfect. Job 1:1 reveals that God considered Job perfect. Glenn wrote: My point exactly. Job was not perfect like Jesus Christ was perfect. Glenn, Job 1:1 says Job was perfect, and I made that point above. Now you say that this is your point exactly, but you say that Job was not perfect. Did you mistype something? Glenn wrote: I don't think you are changing the meaning of the word to fit your doctrine. I don't know if you are making typo's, or changing your perspective. Before you said that I changed the meaning of the word perfection from how the Bible used the term. Now you say that I'm not doing that. David Miller wrote: John Wesley, who founded Methodism, taught Christian Perfection. My belief about Christian perfection is very similar to his. Charles Finney of the Presbyterians also taught it. Glenn wrote: OK, how about sending me a BRIEF one page outline of this doctrine in summary? No time right now, sorry, but look online at the following url: http://gbgm-umc.org/UMhistory/Wesley/perfect.html This is John Wesley's book on Christian perfection. Maybe it can get you started in tracking with me on this subject. Glenn wrote: David - When I see you, I see a man of God. I see a man of integrity. I see a man of sincerity. I see a man of righteousness. When I see you, I do not see a perfect person. Thanks for the kind words, Glenn, but you really should not even be considering whether or not I am a perfect person. You should be considering whether or not the Word of God gives us the promise that we can live like Jesus Christ right now on this earth. When you say that nobody on earth can live perfect like Jesus Christ, that is a slap in the face of God to all his promises in the Holy Scriptures that teach us that we must be holy. Jesus died for us on the cross so that we can receive his Spirit and life within us. He is a living, dynamic force promised to all who believe upon him, that we might do his good works and glorify God by the works that he produces within us. When a person thinks Jesus is only a ticket to heaven and nothing more, he is slapping Jesus in the face as he is suffering there on the cross. That's how I take it. Jesus came not only to save lives, but to transform lives into his image. Let no man say that it is impossible or cannot be done. It might look impossible, it is indeed an incredible and amazing suggestion that men can be like Jesus Christ, but this is what Jesus taught. If we believe in Jesus Christ, we will receive eternal life within us and we can walk in the power of the Holy Ghost. Let us believe Jesus and not doubt. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Works nullify grace in salvation.Rom. 4:4-5; Rom. 11:6. Glenn - You agree below but deny here. You are misusing these verses. Neither of these verses say that works nullify grace. Glenn wrote: The verses you are using you are misusing. Agreed, we OUGHT to but I have never met a person on TT or in person who does so perfectly. NEVER. Michael D: Glenn, does not the fact that the scripture say that we ought to tell us that we cannot excuse ourselves from the obligation, in spite of who has or has not succeeded? this again asks the question: will God give us an obligation that He has not equipped us to fulfil? Does God frustrate His children? If this were the case, we would still be under the law. The law was sent to frustrate us, but not grace. Grace was sent to fulfil us. Glenn - God says we do not continue in sin. I do NOT see the Bible teaching we do not sin ever. Michael D: Glenn, here is that other verse from Peter: I PETER 4:1-2. Peter says that those who suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin... I think it should address the statement above. David Miller wrote: What verses in the Bible do you use to support your teaching that nobody is perfect like Jesus is perfect? Unlimited Internet access for only $21.95/month. Try MSN! Click Here -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The reason you don't believe in holiness is not because of me but because the sinning doctrine of men makes you feel comfortable and a teaching about good works and holiness makes you uncomfortable because it means you have some room to grow some more. Michael D: David, this is quite a direct attack on a brother's motives you make here. Are you sure that this is how you want to represent your assessment? Are you over the ad hominem line here? Glenn - Yes, I have room to grow a lot. I am not perfect. Again, you make my case. Yes, David, you are the reason I don't see the perfection doctrine. I do see holiness in you but not perfectly. You are making me say this. I have tried to not say this as I know it will hurt you because of your sincerity. But I have seen many times on TT imperfection in you. Yes, indeed. Michael D: BR. Glenn, I would like to suggest that yoususpend your sentiments re David's perfection doctrine for the discussion, and really look at what the scriptures are saying and make a determination from them. I think it's important to evaluate what the Word is saying about sin and the believer. Again, the key is will God ask us to do something that He does not equip us for? Do you think He will? Peace be with you. David Miller. Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access! Click Here -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
On Wed, 16 Oct 2002 20:31:29 + "Michael Douglas" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..the key is will God ask us to do something that He does not equip us for? Do you think He will? MD, (but) God is not the only agent at work in this life (as we know it now)--so is Satan i.e.,did God equip us for this (which DavidM is reluctant to deal with): (e.g.) Is 64:6 NIV All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away (?) ftr,whileour Satanic ways and'sinful equipment' remain in tact (now)--and there's no historical evidence it is not (e.g., Christians fought and killed people, inc other Christiansin, e.g., WW2)--followers of JC, unlike JC himself, are not comprised of only one (Spiritual) nature, but of both carnal and Spiritual natures; (we) are not merely ruled/influenced by the Holy Spirit alone, but (by habit) by the devil as well as (by learning) bythe Spirit therefore, perfection per selies, not within this life as we know it, but beyond it; in Christ, the kingdom of God is present already, however, it is not yet fulfilled or perfect/ed (as it/JCs followerswill be someday) g
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Glenn wrote: YOU are the reason I don't believe in perfection. You seem to hit the ceiling over this pet doctrine. David Miller wrote: I haven't hit any ceiling. I'm just pushing you a little further than I have in the past. The reason you don't believe in holiness is not because of me but because the sinning doctrine of men makes you feel comfortable and a teaching about good works and holiness makes you uncomfortable because it means you have some room to grow some more. Michael D. wrote: David, this is quite a direct attack on a brother's motives you make here. Are you sure that this is how you want to represent your assessment? Are you over the ad hominem line here? I admit it appears dangerously close to an ad hominem argument, but considering all the other Scriptures and logical points I have made associated with it, I do not consider it over the line. Glenn made the statment, YOU emphasis by Glenn are the reason I don't believe... That is a pretty personal statement. I responded, not with attack on his character, but on what I believe are the real underlying motivations for his embracing the 'Christians-will-continue-to-sin' doctrine. For Glenn to suggest that I am the reason he does not believe is ludicrous, because that means if he had never met me, then he would believe in Christian perfection. Surely it is quite clear that Glenn is not being honest with himself or with us. So what is the reason that Glenn does not believe? I think it is because it makes him feel comfortable. People like comfort and teachings that tickle their ears and give them comfort. Unfortunately, it is a sad fact that most men love sin, so they resist the good news of the gospel that they can become a son of God and never sin again. Most prefer a message that they can become a son of God and still sin a little bit, from time to time, as long as they don't make it a habit. That's what I call comfortable religion, because such men will never experience the kind of passion Jesus experienced at the mount of Olives when he sweat drops of blood in resisting the temptation that had come upon him. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Gary wrote: ... did God equip us for this (which DavidM is reluctant to deal with): (e.g.) Is 64:6 NIV All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away (?) Why would you think that I am reluctant to deal with this? I welcome the opportunity. All men have sinned, and their own righteousness is like filthy rags. My comments concern that righteous acts of Jesus that work through us when we place our faith in Christ. Are these righteous acts of Christ filthy rags? Of course not. So you bring up a passage of Scripture talking about unregenerated man to counter the good news of the gospel that we can be set free of sin? That is not rightly dividing the Word of God. Gary wrote: ftr, while our Satanic ways and 'sinful equipment' remain in tact (now)-- While our 'sinful equipment' might remain in tact, it is rendered powerless by the Spirit of Jesus Christ. Therefore, our Satanic ways do not remain in tact. If a person continues to walk in Satanic ways, then he is a child of Satan. Anyone who sins is a child of Satan. Gary wrote: and there's no historical evidence it is not There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Rom 8:1-4) And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God unto this day. (Acts 23:1) Receive us; we have wronged no man, we have corrupted no man, we have defrauded no man. (2 Cor. 7:2) I would say that Paul is evidence that his Satanic ways were discarded. Gary wrote: (e.g., Christians fought and killed people, inc other Christians in, e.g., WW2)--followers of JC, unlike JC himself, are not comprised of only one (Spiritual) nature, but of both carnal and Spiritual natures; Jesus Christ also had a carnal nature, or you deny the Scriptures which clearly proclaim that Christ was made flesh. Any spirit which says that Christ did not become flesh is of the AntiChrist. Jesus was fully human flesh. Gary wrote: (we) are not merely ruled/influenced by the Holy Spirit alone, but (by habit) by the devil as well as (by learning) by the Spirit You speak of unregenerated men here, whose eye is not single. When men become religious by law and intellect, they are as you describe, but when men become born again and filled with the Spirit, then the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus makes them free from the power of sin. Gary wrote: therefore, perfection per se lies, not within this life as we know it, but beyond it; in Christ, the kingdom of God is present already, however, it is not yet fulfilled or perfect/ed (as it/JCs followers will be someday) In other words, you teach that the Kingdom of God is yet to come, and that we must look for Christ to come in order to enter into the promises of the Kingdom of God. This is no different than what the Jews who do not know Christ teach today. Those who do not know Christ must look for his coming before they can experience the promises of the Kingdom. The teaching of Jesus Christ is that the Kingdom of God has come. The time has been fulfilled. The kingdom is now, not something to be fulfilled some day. You say that the Kingdom of God is present already, but you deny it if you say that it is not yet fulfilled. Why would you say this? I think perhaps you say this because you know the Bible teaches it, but because you can't believe it, you say that it is not yet fulfilled. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Glenn wrote: YOU are the reason I don't believe in perfection. You seem to hit the ceiling over this pet doctrine. David Miller wrote: I haven't hit any ceiling. I'm just pushing you a little further than I have in the past. The reason you don't believe in holiness is not because of me but because the sinning doctrine of men makes you feel comfortable and a teaching about good works and holiness makes you uncomfortable because it means you have some room to grow some more. Michael D. wrote: David, this is quite a direct attack on a brother's motives you make here. Are you sure that this is how you want to represent your assessment? Are you over the ad hominem line here? I admit it appears dangerously close to an ad hominem argument, but considering all the other Scriptures and logical points I have made associated with it, I do not consider it over the line. Glenn made the statment, "YOU emphasis by Glenn are the reason I don't believe..." That is a pretty personal statement. I responded, not with attack on his character, but on what I believe are the real underlying motivations for his embracing the 'Christians-will-continue-to-sin' doctrine. For Glenn to suggest that I am the reason he does not believe is ludicrous, because that means if he had never met me, then he would believe in Christian perfection. Surely it is quite clear that Glenn is not being honest with himself or with us. So what is the reason that Glenn does not believe? I think it is because it makes him feel comfortable. People like comfort and teachings that tickle their ears and give them comfort. Glenn - I said, that you are the reason I have rejected the perfection doctrine. It is up to you to reject or accept what I said. I call it like I see it. Again, the above is proof to me you are not perfect. First of all, I am not offended. Second, it is sin to judge my motives. You are doing this which means you are not perfect. You can judge sin, but you cannot look into my heart and judge my motives. Unfortunately, it is a sad fact that most men love sin, so they resist the good news of the gospel that they can become a son of God and never sin again. Most prefer a message that they can become a son of God and still sin a little bit, from time to time, as long as they don't make it a habit. That's what I call comfortable religion, because such men will never experience the kind of passion Jesus experienced at the mount of Olives when he sweat drops of blood in resisting the temptation that had come upon him. Glenn - Again, I call it as I see it. You can receive or reject my calls. It up to you. I see you are blinded here because you imply that anyone who doesn't believe in the perfection doctrine is soft on sin. THE DOTS DO NOT CONNECT HERE. YOU HAVE CUT THE CAKE TOO THIN. This is not true. PS. For Michael, don't worry about me, I have a tough skin. :-) I might be "arguing" with David, but it is between 2 Christians brothers, at least from my view. In fact, when he comes out like he does, it just shows his imperfection. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Glenn wrote: Second, it is sin to judge my motives. You are doing this which means you are not perfect. I'm not judging your motives; I'm revealing them. :-) Was Jesus sinning when he revealed the motives of men? What passage of Scripture do you base your belief upon that tells you that men cannot know the motives of other men? What passage of Scripture do you base your belief upon that tells you that a person is sinning when they reveal the motives of other men? Consider: For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and IS A DISCERNER OF THE THOUGHTS AND INTENTS OF THE HEART. (Heb 4:12) But HE THAT IS SPIRITUAL JUDGETH ALL THINGS, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. (1Co 2:15-16) Glenn wrote: You can judge sin, but you cannot look into my heart and judge my motives. But God can, and God can reveal it to whomever he chooses. Do you deny that the Christian Perfection doctrine makes you uncomfortable? You've claimed that I sinned by revealing this about you, but you have not denied what I have said. Why is that? Is it because what I said is true? If it is true, have I sinned? Clearly it is dangerous ground to declare the motives of another person, but it can only be sin when that declaration is false. David Miller wrote: Most prefer a message that they can become a son of God and still sin a little bit, from time to time, as long as they don't make it a habit. That's what I call comfortable religion, because such men will never experience the kind of passion Jesus experienced at the mount of Olives when he sweat drops of blood in resisting the temptation that had come upon him. Glenn wrote: I see you are blinded here because you imply that anyone who doesn't believe in the perfection doctrine is soft on sin. THE DOTS DO NOT CONNECT HERE. ... This is not true. I don't like the term, soft on sin. It implies that the way to deal with sin is to be hard on sin. That is not my point at all. I simply believe what the Scriptures teach, that those born of God do not sin. Have you resisted against sin yet, to the sweating of blood? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Glenn - Your question makes no sense to me? You can trust in the Mormon walk, I will trust in Jesus. I have no backup plan. DAVEH: Glenn.have you ever considered that Jesus may show you the way to heaven, but you have to walk the path he provided? Do you think the Lord will drag you to heaven??? :-) So Glenn, You are saying that faith alone is enough but that works are an evicence of this faith - Right?? Laura --
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Glenn wrote: No way. This perfection doctrine has you blinded. As I have said before, works nullify grace. This is not a Biblical statement. The Bible teaches that TRUSTING IN WORKS nullifies grace. It does not teach that works nullify grace. If it did, then all the righteous men from Abraham to the apostle John who had good works would have had the grace of God nullified in their life. What a ridiculous notion! Please present Scripture to explain your position, or retract your statement that works nullify grace. Back to the Bible. The Bible teaches that faith, which is a work of grace in our lives, is PERFECTED by works, NOT NULLIFIED BY WORKS. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and BY WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT? (Jam 2:22) Glenn wrote: The only way one can claim to be perfect is to redefine Biblical perfection. Be ye perfect, as I am perfect is Biblical perfection. And no one is perfect in the Biblical sense. How do you know? Are you God? Who are you to say whether or not someone is perfect? If nobody is perfect as you claim, then there would be no basis for any of us to judge whether or not anybody else was perfect. Only God would be able to judge who is perfect or not. So then why are you ursurping that position, by your own theology, and claiming that nobody is perfect? God has already made it clear in some passages of Scripture that men were perfect in his eyes. For example, consider Job 1:1, There was a man ... whose name was Job; and that man was perfect ... and Paul says in Phil. 3:15, let us therefore, AS MANY AS BE PERFECT ... Now I understand that you do not consider yourself in that camp of people that Paul was addressing in Phil. 3:15, but what gives you the authority to declare that nobody on earth is in that camp either? Are you sure that you just aren't trying to keep everyone down on your low level? :-) If the Bible teaches perfection, and if the Bible commands us to be perfect, and if the Bible names men who were perfect, then let us believe the Bible and lay our silly philosophy and comfortable theology aside and believe the Bible. Glenn wrote: As I listened to this perfection doctrine on TT a long time ago, the more I could not believe it. The thing that convinced me it was wrong, was the redefining of perfection different from Biblical perfection. I have never defined perfection except by using the Bible. I consider this an ad hominem slur if you do not back it up with some substantive statements showing that I have redefined perfection. Glenn wrote: I am perfect in that I don't lie, steal, or cheat, but that is not Biblical perfection. No one, David, including you, has perfect love, perfect hope, perfect faith. No one is perfect in doing everything they are supposed to do (sins of omission). You are extremely arrogant if you think you, not being perfect, are able to judge who is perfect. Leave the judging of who is doing everything they are supposed to do in God's hands. By the way, that is how I understand perfection, as doing everything that you are suppose to do. But I would not say that a person who is perfect has complete love, complete hope, and complete faith. The man who is walking in Biblical perfection continues to grow, as a light that shines brighter and brighter unto the perfect day. The man who is perfect (mature, doing all that he is supposed to do) has not arrived, but continues to grow. We say that he is perfect when he walks in all the love, all the hope, and all the faith that he can at that point in time. If in God's eyes, a man is doing all that God expects of him, then that man is considered perfect by God. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Laura wrote: So Glenn, You are saying that faith alone is enough but that works are an evidence of this faith - Right?? But faith alone is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that justification is of faith, NOT OF WORKS. It simply places the effectiveness as being due to believing on not due to working. Such a statement does not mean that works do not follow. In other words, Paul still has in mind, faith + works, but he is focusing upon faith as being the part with efficacy for justification. James and Paul are speaking about the same kind of faith and the same kind of works, but James does emphasize good works (morality), whereas Paul seems to emphasize works of the law with attention toward circumcision, etc. Nevertheless, the balanced understanding of this subject comes by realizing that they both have the same thing in mind, but they are addressing people who are erring on different sides of the issue. Michael D: This is exactly why I prefaced my statementssaying that it is a matter of perspective. To Paul, a man is not saved by works, - For by grace are you saved through faith... not of works, lest any man shall boast.Yet he said let the believer's life be full of good works. He never uses it as a condition of getting saved. MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click Here -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
On the contrary, Glenn, I agree completely with Michael's statement and believe it. I teach it that way all the time. Peace be with you.David Miller. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test I am understanding, because of his perfection doctrine, that David does not believe your comment below. Either he does or he does not. This is a "sacred cow' with him that distinguishes him from others. It seems to me most everyone has their sacred cow. Michael D: This is exactly why I prefaced my statements saying that it is a matter of perspective. To Paul, a man is not saved by works, - For by grace are you saved through faith... not of works, lest any man shall boast.Yet he said let the believer's life be full of good works. He never uses it as a condition of getting saved.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
OK, then agreed. On the contrary, Glenn, I agree completely with Michael's statement and believe it. I teach it that way all the time. Peace be with you. David Miller.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Glenn wrote: No way. This perfection doctrine has you blinded. As I have said before, works nullify grace This is not a Biblical statement. The Bible teaches that TRUSTING IN WORKS nullifies grace. It does not teach that works nullify grace. If it did, then all the righteous men from Abraham to the apostle John who had good works would have had the grace of God nullified in their life. What a ridiculous notion! Please present Scripture to explain your position, or retract your statement that works nullify grace. Glenn = If you agree with Michael's statement then the above doesn't make sense to me. Back to the Bible. The Bible teaches that faith, which is a work of grace in our lives, is PERFECTED by works, NOT NULLIFIED BY WORKS. "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and BY WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT?" (Jam 2:22) Glenn - If you agree with Michael then I don't see any benefit in jockeying over words. Glenn wrote: The only way one can claim to be perfect is to redefine Biblical perfection. "Be ye perfect, as I am perfect" is Biblical perfection. And no one is perfect in the Biblical sense. How do you know? Are you God? Who are you to say whether or not someone is perfect? If nobody is perfect as you claim, then there would be no basis for any of us to judge whether or not anybody else was perfect. Only God would be able to judge who is perfect or not. So then why are you ursurping that position, by your own theology, and claiming that nobody is perfect? Glenn - I don't want to hurt your feelings, but you have convinced me the perfection doctrine is wrong. The statement above shows I have hit your "sacred cow". It doesn't take a perfect person to see imperfection. Who am I? I am a sinner saved by grace. I am justified - just as if I never sinned. I am claiming no person, including you, is perfect, because of the Biblical definition of perfection, "Be ye perfect as I am perfect". Your definition of perfection is not he same as this verse. You also confuse perfection with maturity, in my opinion. God has already made it clear in some passages of Scripture that men were perfect in his eyes. For example, consider Job 1:1, "There was a man ... whose name was Job; and that man was perfect ..." and Paul says in Phil. 3:15, "let us therefore, AS MANY AS BE PERFECT ..." Now I understand that you do not consider yourself in that camp of people that Paul was addressing in Phil. 3:15, but what gives you the authority to declare that nobody on earth is in that camp either? Are you sure that you just aren't trying to keep everyone down on your low level? :-) If the Bible teaches perfection, and if the Bible commands us to be perfect, and if the Bible names men who were perfect, then let us believe the Bible and lay our silly philosophy and comfortable theology aside and believe the Bible. Glenn wrote: As I listened to this perfection doctrine on TT a long time ago, the more I could not believe it. The thing that convinced me it was wrong, was the redefining of "perfection" different from Biblical perfection. I have never defined "perfection" except by using the Bible. I consider this an ad hominem slur if you do not back it up with some substantive statements showing that I have "redefined" perfection. Glenn - So be it. I backed it up above. Have you noticed how this doctrine is your "sacred cow"? Glenn wrote: I am perfect in that I don't lie, steal, or cheat, but that is not Biblical perfection. No one, David, including you, has perfect love, perfect hope, perfect faith. No one is perfect in doing everything they are supposed to do (sins of omission). You are extremely arrogant if you think you, not being perfect, are able to judge who is perfect. Leave the judging of who is doing everything they are supposed to do in God's hands. Glenn - Your judging me shows you are not perfect. The Bible teaches you cannot judge my motives. So you are wrong right here. You don't know if I am arrogant or honestly disagreeing with you. By the way, that is how I understand perfection, as doing everything that you are suppose to do. But I would not say that a person who is perfect has complete love, complete hope, and complete faith. The man who is walking in Biblical perfection continues to grow, as a light that shines brighter and brighter unto the perfect day. The man who is perfect (mature, doing all that he is supposed to do) has not arrived, but continues to grow. We say that he is perfect when he walks in all the love, all the hope, and all the faith that he can at that point in time. If in God's eyes, a man is doing all that God expects of him, then that man is considered perfect by God. Glenn - With the above statement you have made my case. So it was no "ad hominem" argument. This kind of perfection is not Biblical perfection. "Be ye perfect as I am perfect" means be perfect as God is perfect. God has perfect love. God does not grow. Perfection cannot be improved upon.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Glenn wrote: No way. This perfection doctrine has you blinded. As I have said before, works nullify grace This is not a Biblical statement. The Bible teaches that TRUSTING IN WORKS nullifies grace. It does not teach that works nullify grace. If it did, then all the righteous men from Abraham to the apostle John who had good works would have had the grace of God nullified in their life. What a ridiculous notion! Please present Scripture to explain your position, or retract your statement that works nullify grace. Glenn = If you agree with Michael's statement then the above doesn't make sense to me. Back to the Bible. The Bible teaches that faith, which is a work of grace in our lives, is PERFECTED by works, NOT NULLIFIED BY WORKS. "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and BY WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT?" (Jam 2:22) Glenn - If you agree with Michael then I don't see any benefit in jockeying over words. Glenn wrote: The only way one can claim to be perfect is to redefine Biblical perfection. "Be ye perfect, as I am perfect" is Biblical perfection. And no one is perfect in the Biblical sense. How do you know? Are you God? Who are you to say whether or not someone is perfect? If nobody is perfect as you claim, then there would be no basis for any of us to judge whether or not anybody else was perfect. Only God would be able to judge who is perfect or not. So then why are you ursurping that position, by your own theology, and claiming that nobody is perfect? Glenn - I don't want to hurt your feelings, but you have convinced me the perfection doctrine is wrong. The statement above shows I have hit your "sacred cow". It doesn't take a perfect person to see imperfection. Who am I? I am a sinner saved by grace. I am justified - just as if I never sinned. I am claiming no person, including you, is perfect, because of the Biblical definition of perfection, "Be ye perfect as I am perfect". Your definition of perfection is not he same as this verse. You also confuse perfection with maturity, in my opinion. Michael D: Just a couple observations/questions to ponderhere, guys: 1. I would think that ...Be ye prefect as your Father which in heaven is perfect... is an injunction not a definition. The question to me is what is perfection? A clear definition (based on scripture) might help there. 2. Was Jesus perfect? If so, when did He become perfect? Was he perfect at 5, 10 , 15 yrs old? (Again, this goes back to the definition of perfect). 3. Will God require us to do something that we are unable to do through Him? 4. Is perfection assessed on the entire span of one's walk with God, over a specified time frame,or at a given point in time? And can one fall below this perfection and then regain it? I think this looks at some practical issues re this topic. God has already made it clear in some passages of Scripture that men were perfect in his eyes. For example, consider Job 1:1, "There was a man ... whose name was Job; and that man was perfect ..." and Paul says in Phil. 3:15, "let us therefore, AS MANY AS BE PERFECT ..." Now I understand that you do not consider yourself in that camp of people that Paul was addressing in Phil. 3:15, but what gives you the authority to declare that nobody on earth is in that camp either? Are you sure that you just aren't trying to keep everyone down on your low level? :-) If the Bible teaches perfection, and if the Bible commands us to be perfect, and if the Bible names men who were perfect, then let us believe the Bible and lay our silly philosophy and comfortable theology aside and believe the Bible. Michael D: David, allow me to suggest that some of your language in dealing with this seems to be a bit loaded. Maybe you would want to consider this in treating with the topic...I guessGlennmight be seen as doing the samewith his 'sacred cow' description. Glenn - So be it. I backed it up above. Have you noticed how this doctrine is your "sacred cow"? You are extremely arrogant if you think you, not being perfect, are able to judge who is perfect. Leave the judging of who is doing everything they are supposed to do in God's hands. Glenn - Your judging me shows you are not perfect. The Bible teaches you cannot judge my motives. So you are wrong right here. You don't know if I am arrogant or honestly disagreeing with you. By the way, that is how I understand perfection, as doing everything that you are suppose to do. But I would not say that a person who is perfect has complete love, complete hope, and complete faith. The man who is walking in Biblical perfection continues to grow, as a light that shines brighter and brighter unto the perfect day. The man who is perfect (mature, doing all that he is supposed to do) has notarrived, but
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Christian living is perfected by works. Salvation is not of works. Salvation is not perfected by works. I gave the Bible for this when I answered the true or false test. Back to the Bible. The Bible teaches that faith, which is a work of grace in our lives, is PERFECTED by works, NOT NULLIFIED BY WORKS. "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and BY WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT?" (Jam 2:22)
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Michael D: Just a couple observations/questions to ponder here, guys: 1. I would think that ...Be ye prefect as your Father which in heaven is perfect... is an injunction not a definition. The question to me is what is perfection? A clear definition (based on scripture) might help there. Glenn - Whether it is an injunction or a definition doesn't change anything to my understanding. In order for it to be an injuncton one must understand the word perfect. Here perfect is used as God is perfect. No one is perfect as God is perfect. No one. The perfect movement has redefined perfection or lowered the meaning of perfection to mean less than perfection.. 2. Was Jesus perfect? If so, when did He become perfect? Was he perfect at 5, 10 , 15 yrs old? (Again, this goes back to the definition of perfect). Glenn - Jesus was perfect. Jesus was always perfect. He never ever sinned. 3. Will God require us to do something that we are unable to do through Him? Glenn - This involves a thorough study of the book of Galatians. It is the doctrine of imputed righteousness. I just don't have time to go into it. Because I am covered with the blood of Jesus, God looks at me, sees Jesus' blood and counts me as perfect. God doesn't look beyond the blood. I would recommend the "Teacher's Outline and Study Bible - Galatians ". Leadership Ministries Worldwide, PO Box 21310, Chattanooga, TN 37424 The Preacher's Outline Sermon Bible 4. Is perfection assessed on the entire span of one's walk with God, over a specified time frame,or at a given point in time? And can one fall below this perfection and then regain it? Glenn - "Be ye perfect as God is perfect". I think this looks at some practical issues re this topic.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Again, you have made my point. No one is perfect as Jesus was perfect. Read what I wrote again. Notice the *IF*. You are taking this way too personal. I said, "*IF* you think you, NOT BEING PERFECT, are able to judge who is perfect." I'm not judging you either way. I'm saying that if you or anybody else thinks they are imperfect, and yet at the same time think they can judge that nobody in the world is perfect, then they are extremely arrogant. The Pharisees thought they knew how to judge what was perfect, and there he was, standing in their midst, and they could not recognize perfection. Why? Because they were lifted up with pride thinking that they could make such judgments. The ones who received Jesus were the ones who recognized that they were blind and unable to judge who was perfect.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
PREI was taught that imputed righteousness means that we receive the righteousness of Christ because we can't possible be completely righteous on our own. Laura -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Laura wrote: I was taught that imputed righteousness means that we receive the righteousness of Christ because we can't possible be completely righteous on our own. Right, but that imputed righteousness is not like some placard that you hold up and trick God into thinking you are perfect when you really are not. When Jesus makes you righteous, you are righteous in deed. It is not a fake righteousness. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
I agree Laura Laura wrote: I was taught that imputed righteousness means that we receive the righteousness of Christ because we can't possible be completely righteous on our own. Right, but that imputed righteousness is not like some placard that you hold up and trick God into thinking you are perfect when you really are not. When Jesus makes you righteous, you are righteous in deed. It is not a fake righteousness. Peace be with you. David Miller.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Glenn wrote: No one is perfect as Jesus was perfect. That is your opinion, but the Bible disagrees with you. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. (1 John 3:7) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; YET NOT I, BUT CHRIST LIVETH IN ME: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Gal. 2:20) He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. (1 John 2:6) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
The verses you are using you are misusing. Glenn wrote: No one is perfect as Jesus was perfect. That is your opinion, but the Bible disagrees with you. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." (1 John 3:7) "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; YET NOT I, BUT CHRIST LIVETH IN ME: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Gal. 2:20) "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:6) Peace be with you. David Miller.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
INothing we can do makes us righteous. We are righteous because we are justified by faith in Christ Jesus. Works don't justify BUT the justified man works. I read that the other day and it made sense to me. Laura Glenn wrote: No one is perfect as Jesus was perfect. That is your opinion, but the Bible disagrees with you. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous." (1 John 3:7)
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Laura wrote: Nothing we can do makes us righteous. We are righteous because we are justified by faith in Christ Jesus. Works don't justify BUT the justified man works. I read that the other day and it made sense to me. Amen. This is a good way to say it too. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Glenn wrote: The verses you are using you are misusing. No, I am not misusing them. Read the whole epistle of 1 John and believe it. Glenn wrote: No one is perfect as Jesus was perfect. Let's look at the first verse that I quoted: Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. (1 John 3:7) This passage means that when we do righteousness, we are as righteous as Jesus. You teach that men are not as righteous as Jesus. That teaching contradicts the Bible. If our righteousness comes from Jesus Christ, then it is obvious that we are just as righteous as Jesus when we are justified by faith in him. That is what the next verse says. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; YET NOT I, BUT CHRIST LIVETH IN ME: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Gal. 2:20) If I no longer live, but Christ lives in me, then the righteous deeds that I do are not my works, but rather the works of Christ. If the life I live is now the life of Christ, then I am as perfect and as righteous as Jesus Christ. This is what imputed righteousness means. The next verse that I quoted was: He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. (1 John 2:6) You try and teach that our walk can never compare to Jesus Christ, but this passage is clear yet again that we ought to walk just like Jesus. What verses in the Bible do you use to support your teaching that nobody is perfect like Jesus is perfect? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Glenn wrote: You're playing the word game here. You knew full well I was talking about adults. I'm not playing any word game at all. This was revealed to me by the Holy Spirit. Jesus grew and learned obedience through the things that he suffered. Yet we call him perfect. Why is that? There is much more that can be said about this. The questions I asked you are sincere. I wish you would answer them and not ignore them. Glenn wrote: Yes, this is your sacred cow. You are accusing me of the sin of idolatry. I believe in holiness, and that it is not our holiness, but the holiness of Jesus. We can be as righteous as Jesus, through faith in Jesus Christ. Glenn wrote: You are not are reasonable on this as you are on other matters. I only don't appear reasonsable to you because this is your sacred cow, to keep teaching a sinning doctrine. Again, like I have done with the Mormons, I do with you. I quote the Bible and show you how it applies. You simply deny and ignore my questions, just like the Mormons have done. Glenn wrote: The Bible does not disagree with me. David, please, I don't want to offend you, but YOU are the reason I don't believe in perfection. You seem to hit the ceiling over this pet doctrine. I haven't hit any ceiling. I'm just pushing you a little further than I have in the past. The reason you don't believe in holiness is not because of me but because the sinning doctrine of men makes you feel comfortable and a teaching about good works and holiness makes you uncomfortable because it means you have some room to grow some more. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Blainer) To David. I deleted a whole bunch of stuff yesterday, and I think your post on BH Roberts and the History of the LDS Church was one of them. If you still have it, would you mind reposting it, please?? On Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:41:14 -0400 David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I would like to see several people take the following test, especially Glenn and Laura. :-) True or False 1. Justification comes by Faith Alone (meaning only faith -- faith without good works) 2. A person who says he has faith but not good works is justified before God. 3. A person is condemned by works if his works are sinful. 4. Good works carry no merit whatsoever before God. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Following are my answers to the test: True or False 1. Justification comes by Faith Alone (meaning only faith -- faith without good works) False 2. A person who says he has faith but not good works is justified before God. False 3. A person is condemned by works if his works are sinful. True 4. Good works carry no merit whatsoever before God. False When I have time, I will show by the Scriptures my reasons for answering this way. I think we can have some interesting and thought provoking discussions on this. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Michael D: From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:32:59 -0400 Following are my answers to the test: True or False 1. Justification comes by Faith Alone (meaning only faith -- faith without good works) False David, This is a matter of perspective, since the bible says both. A person who claims faith in Jesus, but does not evidence that in works of love, does not have faith. He has wishful thinking. A saving faith is one that expresses itself in (KJV: worketh by) love Gal. 5. Theworks are not what save in and of themselves, but the living faith that results in them.The works, are a testimonyof that faith.Look at it another way, a person who knows Biblical salvation won't tell someone that they are doing good works so they can be saved (although there are multitudes who unfortunately depend on that today). That grace that is a free gift cannot be meritted by their works as Paul says in Eph. 2. Paul does often exhort that those who believe in Christ should be zealous of good works. 2. A person who says he has faith but not good works is justified before God. False 3. A person is condemned by works if his works are sinful. True 4. Good works carry no merit whatsoever before God. False When I have time, I will show by the Scriptures my reasons for answering this way. I think we can have some interesting and thought provoking discussions on this. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click Here -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
We need to consider the type of justification James is referring to here. The context is talking about the relationship between the Christian and his neighbor. In context James is saying that we are justified before man by our good works. Paul uses the same example in Romans 4 with Abraham. This chapter shows that man is justified before God on the basis of faith, not works. Our good works show other people we are already saved. "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and NOT BY FAITH ONLY." (Jam 2:24) Peace be with you. David Miller.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
PRESo Glenn, You are saying that faith alone is enough but that works are an evicence of this faith - Right?? Laura -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Glenn wrote: We need to consider the type of justification James is referring to here. The context is talking about the relationship between the Christian and his neighbor. Wrong. I've heard this exegesis before my theologians who err on the side of grace. Get your head out of their books and into the Bible. Following is the whole context of the passage I quoted: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (Jam 2:20-26) Now he mentions Abraham and his justification. Was he talking about Abraham's justification before his neighbor or before God? Before God, obviously. He was called, the Friend of God. Then after the statement that I quoted concening faith only, he offers another example of Rahab. Was she justified before men or before God? Before God seems the obvious meaning. Glenn wrote: In context James is saying that we are justified before man by our good works. No. Wrong. You must show that context if you truly believe that. I think it is made up. I have read other theologians say this before, but read the context yourself. The subject is justification before God, and that is the way it must be taken. Glenn wrote: Paul uses the same example in Romans 4 with Abraham. Yes he does, so if both are using the same example, then they are both talking about the same kind of justification. Glenn wrote: This chapter shows that man is justified before God on the basis of faith, not works. Our good works show other people we are already saved. Our good works might indeed show others that we are saved, but Paul's point is that justification takes place prior to the works being manifested. Nevertheless, he is not denying the point of James, that faith without works following is not true faith. He is simply showing forth that men have no right to brag because it is faith which justifies them before the Lord, even before the works have been manifested. Another point: sometimes Paul is focusing upon works of the law, which include more than good works. For example, the ceremonial laws cannot justify men before God. When I have more time, I hope to share how works are pleasing to God and are a fruit of faith which is pleasing to God. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Yes, However, one might need to define Biblical faith. Mormons seem to think intellectual belief is Biblical faith. It is not so. I have faith (intellectual) that George Washington was Prez of the United States. This is the kind of faith the devil has. He believes in Jesus Christ, but he has not trusted in Jesus Christ to save him. I am not trusting in George Washington. I believe in salvation by grace through faith, plus nothing, minus nothing. If I die tonight, I have trusted ONLY Jesus Christ to take me to heaven. I have no back up plan. I have no other plan. I have no other ideas. I have no other hope. It is up to Jesus to take me to heaven. I am completely trusting my salvation to Jesus. If Jesus doesn't take me to heaven, I will not go. So Glenn, You are saying that faith alone is enough but that works are an evicence of this faith - Right?? Laura
[TruthTalk] True or False Test
I would like to see several people take the following test, especially Glenn and Laura. :-) True or False 1. Justification comes by Faith Alone (meaning only faith -- faith without good works) 2. A person who says he has faith but not good works is justified before God. 3. A person is condemned by works if his works are sinful. 4. Good works carry no merit whatsoever before God. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
In a message dated 10/10/2002 4:52:15 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: True or False 1. Justification comes by Faith Alone (meaning only faith -- faith without good works) True but if the faith is sincere works SHOULD follow 2. A person who says he has faith but not good works is justified before God. True 3. A person is condemned by works if his works are sinful. Not necessarily I have to say false 4. Good works carry no merit whatsoever before God. I think good works done with the right "heart" attitude do carry merit. God blesses us when we do good works Answer is false
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Tell me these are not trick questions and I will try to answer them. I am wondering if you are confused over this perfection doctrine. I just can't buy perfection. One has to redefine perfection to believe in it. NO one is perfect in his thoughts. No one loves perfectly, etc., I would like to see several people take the following test, especially Glenn and Laura. :-) True or False 1. Justification comes by Faith Alone (meaning only faith -- faith without good works) 2. A person who says he has faith but not good works is justified before God. 3. A person is condemned by works if his works are sinful. 4. Good works carry no merit whatsoever before God. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
Glenn wrote: Tell me these are not trick questions and I will try to answer them. These are not trick questions. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
True or False 1. Justification comes by Faith Alone (meaning only faith -- faith without good works) True, meaning Salvation comes by faith alone. Justification defined: just as if I never sinned. Abraham justified through faith Gen. 15:6 No one can earn justification Rom. 3:22-24 Works nullify grace Rom. 4:4-5; Rom. 11:6 Based on God's mercy, not human will or effort Titus 3:5-7; Rom. 9:16 Salvation is strictly a gift Eph. 2:8-9 2. A person who says he has faith but not good works is justified before God. False - Meaning if he claims to be saved and has not works, his faith is dead James 2:17-20 3. A person is condemned by works if his works are sinful. True Romans 6:6 4. Good works carry no merit whatsoever before God. Merit meaning: 1) Spiritual credit held to be earned by performance of righteous acts and to ensure future benefits 2) Character or conduct deserving reward, honor, or esteem False meaning there is nothing we can do to deserve reward in heaven or even to deserve God's love for us. True meaning our works, after we are saved, express our love to Christ and Christ covets our love. Peace be with you. David Miller.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
I think the answers given to the test so far will lead to some very interesting discussions. I'm going out of town for several days so I may not be able to respond much until next week. I hope to see some more answers from others when I get back. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] True or False Test
PRESee you expected Glenn and I to answer the same way. Actually I don't find that much fault with his answers but I look at some of it differently. Laura -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
