On 29/04/11 16:02, Robert Porter wrote:
>
> Thanks Doug for making this point... I was about to, but it opens a whole
> other can of worms.
> People don't get the difference.
>
> "Free" doesn't mean what people seem to think. The short answer is most of
> the licenses usually mean
> "free
ginal Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 9:31 AM
To: U2 Users List
Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye.
Hi Mecki:
No Eclipse based tool currently works f
Thanks Doug for making this point... I was about to, but it opens a whole other
can of worms.
People don't get the difference.
"Free" doesn't mean what people seem to think. The short answer is most of the
licenses usually mean
"free as in speech, not as in beer". And with so many licenses
Mecki Foerthmann
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 5:24 AM
To: U2 Users List
Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye.
Doug,
Fine, Eclipse may be a full blown IDE, but I still can download it from the net
for free and use it without having to pay an annual license fee.
Why
Hi Mecki:
No Eclipse based tool currently works for SB+. Of the roughly 2.7 million U2
licenses only a small fraction are SB+ shops. Someday Rocket Software will
have tool for that was not developed in the 80's for those SB+ shops.
There is a big difference between free and open source. XLr8Edi
Mecki:
What editor is in use there?
Please advise...
--Bill
-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Mecki Foerthmann
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 5:24 AM
To: U2 Users List
Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye
Doug,
Fine, Eclipse may be a full blown IDE, but I still can download it from
the net for free and use it without having to pay an annual license fee.
Why?
Because it is open source perhaps?
So where do the 'hundreds of millions of development dollars' come from?
Donated by companies like your
On 28/04/2011 23:06, "Mecki Foerthmann" wrote:
> Come on George,
> if GUI is putting on lipstick on green screen then browser enabled is
> putting eye shadow and mascara on GUI.
Only if what you do with it is to make an existing application look
different. What you need to be doing is making th
You might also get rid of short sighted VAR's that have discovered they
can make a majority of their revenue converting U2 customers to other
platforms.
Jerry
On 4/26/2011 4:50 PM, David Jordan wrote:
Have people who criticised U2 interfaces actually worked with other database
applications.
x27;s
the cheapest of the U2 line. :-o
So, I guess you're talking about, what, one user...retail?
Bill
- Original Message -
*From:* da...@dacono.com.au
*To:* U2 Users List
*Date:* 4/28/2011 4:38 PM
*Subject:*
Hi Mecki:
Whenever we get into discussions about editors, everyone mentions this
editor they got for free or this editor they are using from one of those
other guys or about the one they just cobbled together editor from EMACS,
VIM or Notepad, for instance. Eclipse is a full blown IDE. Eclipse h
HI Jake
A work group license is A$570
David Jordan
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Come on George,
if GUI is putting on lipstick on green screen then browser enabled is
putting eye shadow and mascara on GUI.
90% of an application consists of code running behind the interface,
like validations, calculations and file/table updates aka business logic.
There are no tools out ther
of the box,
though.
-Original Message-
From: Mecki Foerthmann
To: U2 Users List
Sent: Thu, Apr 28, 2011 1:06 pm
Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye.
Hi Doug,
I think it is very well my job to help staff using my software to be
more productive.
Tha
Hi Doug,
I think it is very well my job to help staff using my software to be
more productive.
That's what I at least get paid for!
But then I work for an end user and not a software vendor.
BTW I hardly ever use ED to edit programs, Brian's mv-developer is so
much better.
It would be great i
In a message dated 4/28/2011 9:07:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
jscha...@gmail.com writes:
> Not germane to my argument Will. There are not 2 virtually identical
> languages called COBOLVERSE and COBOLDATA.
>
Yes my argument is extensible.
Why does Cobol still exist? Because there are still c
In a message dated 4/28/2011 5:07:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
johnisr...@daytonsuperior.com writes:
> The vendors of canned packages out there ought to develop a GUI/web
> interface to keep their package appealing to those that don't care/understand
> the db behind it. In a tight race, bells
Maybe it's just me, but I put the web interfaces in between the speed of a
character based app (truly the most speedy) and a GUI app (which may be much
less so). GUI may be pretty but WOW how it has slowed down the speed of
data entry. With web-based entry, I feel we're finally moving back toward
Not germane to my argument Will. There are not 2 virtually identical
languages called COBOLVERSE and COBOLDATA.
fft2...@aol.com wrote:
Cobol still exists also.
"Oh you're on Unidata... well we're discontinuing that product in 2002."
In a message dated 4/27/2011 12:40:01 P.M. Pacific Da
For me the issue comes down to all the free stuff out there just ripe for
the pickin'. Integrating any of the Google APIs (Google Charts is a pretty
cool API, actually) is easy to do in web programming but is not likely to be
something we'll see in SBClient. Maybe with SB/XA they'll do something
As I've said before, we cannot continue to code like dinosaurs or we will be
extinct as well. The rest of the world has editors that tell you about
syntax failures. Why are U2 programmers think they are different?
You will have to code like the 20 or 30 year old. Or that person will take
you jo
George, I whole hardly agree. We we switched to a browser interface for all
of our applications it opened up customers that we thought would never be
interested in any of our applications products. We have a claims company
that does all of its data entry using the browser front-end where we
replac
--Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Jeffrey
Butera
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 1:29 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
> On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Allen E.
Hmm, there really is a fundamental lack of understanding going on here.
Firstly we are not really talking about GUI in the old sense. A GUI
interface on a green screen application is just putting lipstick on a pig.
That really isn't what it is about.
We have an SB based application and in client
org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 6:57 AM
To: U2 Users List
Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye.
Hi Mecki:
It doesn't matter if the staff is more productive or not, that is not our
job. We have given them what
er.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-
> boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch
> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 9:57 AM
> To: U2 Users List
> Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye... Reasons not to say goodbye.
>
>
> Those of us using XLr8Editor, with continuous compile, know
Hi Mecki:
It doesn't matter if the staff is more productive or not, that is not our
job. We have given them what Google, Microsoft, Oracle and whomever have.
That browser front-end is rich with functionality, easy of use, and can be
color customized at a flip of a switch. If we don't give them
mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of fft2...@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 7:39 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
But you're ignoring the issue that if management goes to a "more familiar
interface", their busines
Doug
Do you really believe staff are more productive if they can play around
with skins and colours all day?
And I still have to see the office where people use smart phones and
tabloids instead of PCs.
Fine, maybe the top brass wants to see KPIs and fancy graphics on their
toys to show off on
Cobol still exists also.
"Oh you're on Unidata... well we're discontinuing that product in 2002."
In a message dated 4/27/2011 12:40:01 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
jscha...@gmail.com writes:
I do however think the fact that there are still 2 products is
unbelievable considering they
But you're ignoring the issue that if management goes to a "more familiar
interface", their business goes bankrupt because it the "familiar interface"
doesn't actually help them run their business and in fact prevents them
from running their business.
The vendor who wins is the one who impa
Hi Ed:
You are focusing to much on the technical side. Users really don't care how
we programmers do what we do.
Presentation is everything. The ability to change colors or skins on your
web site. For example, just look at the Firefox 4 or the new Dell Laptop
with interchangeable tops. Anothe
lled o/s?
>
> I know it's *not* asking much. ;-)
>
> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
> [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Kevin King
> Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 12:11 PM
> To: U2 Users List
> Subj
Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Would that be UniUniVerse?
> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-
> boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Allen E. Elwood
> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 3:28 PM
> To: 'U2 Users List
Would that be UniUniVerse?
> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-
> boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Allen E. Elwood
> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 3:28 PM
> To: 'U2 Users List'
> Subject: Re: [U2] Sayin
Or we could just get rid of the vastly inferior Unidata product and go
forward with the original incarnation of Prime Information on Unix,
Universe.
Its a joke. Calm down.
I do however think the fact that there are still 2 products is
unbelievable considering they have now been owned by one e
olved...
-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Steve Romanow
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 11:22 AM
To: U2 Users List
Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
> And, while I'm at it, why can't w
...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Kevin King
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 11:08 AM
To: U2 Users List
Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Allen, I believe it's possible but for one significant stumbling block:
threads. And given that we're
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 2:29 PM, Jeffrey Butera wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Allen E. Elwood
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'd love to see a U2 server, connected directly to the internet, with *no
>>> other software* serving up secured web pages. To have the entire www
>>> available with new
Interviewing late last year I got a series of applications from unemployed
long term mv programmers. Several of them had been contracting for years,
being paid a lot of money (in some case twice what we were offering) to work
on green screen applications in basic. They lacked what I would call si
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Allen E. Elwood wrote:
I'd love to see a U2 server, connected directly to the internet, with *no
other software* serving up secured web pages. To have the entire www
available with new U2 commands added by Rocket's Scientists.
Other db's do not do this. mys
On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Allen E. Elwood wrote:
> I'd love to see a U2 server, connected directly to the internet, with *no
> other software* serving up secured web pages. To have the entire www
> available with new U2 commands added by Rocket's Scientists.
>
Other db's do not do this. m
--
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
>
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Sent: Wed Apr 27 13:36:04 2011
> Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
>
> In a message dated 4/27/2011 9:59:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> johnisr...@daytonsuperior.com writes:
>
>
>>
Increasingly a mature interface does cost money. There are several issues:
1. Training, using our SB based GUI client interface people need to be
trained to do a lookup with F3, to use tab and enter in particular ways and
so on. With our web interface people can, in the main, just use it with
ver
Allen, I believe it's possible but for one significant stumbling block:
threads. And given that we're not likely to get native thread support in
U2, I think closely integrating U2 into something like Apache (which does
support threading) could be a Very Good Thing.
ta programs with
only one installed o/s?
I know it's *not* asking much. ;-)
-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Kevin King
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 12:11 PM
To: U2 Users List
Subject: R
2011
Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
In a message dated 4/27/2011 9:59:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
johnisr...@daytonsuperior.com writes:
> However, a mature interface can not reasonably be achieved if it is a
> canned package with vendor support that is still old style. Even t
In a message dated 4/27/2011 9:59:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
johnisr...@daytonsuperior.com writes:
> However, a mature interface can not reasonably be achieved if it is a
> canned package with vendor support that is still old style. Even the GUI
> interface with SB leaves things to be desir
I find it interesting that Karl's original post (just recently quoted) was from
May 2010:
On Behalf Of Karl Pearson
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 12:29 AM
To: U2 Users List
Subject: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Wally Terhune
U2 Support Architect
Rocket Software
4600 South Ulster Street, Suite
...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of John Hester
Sent: 27 April 2011 03:03
To: U2 Users List
Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Thanks, Kevin! Yes, we were repeatedly amazed by jQuery during the
development process. We found a way to handle pretty much every
t: Tue Apr 26 16:38:50 2011
Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Kevin
>The only thing that
>I see holding us back is the maturity of our connectivity options
It's not often I disagree with you, but here I must..
We don't lack mature interfaces. We have UO.Net; UOJ; web servic
1:00 AM
> To: U2 Users List
> Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
>
> If you start running into performance issues (which with CGI and any
> type of volume is quite possible), and a re-write is out of the
> question, look into mod_perl. It can help a lot!
>
> The O'
sers-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-
> boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of John Hester
> Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 4:14 PM
> To: U2 Users List
> Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
>
> We just unveiled a new web 2.0 site last month that we're all very
> proud
&
Make them awesome.
The problem is not the maturity of the interfaces, but the "maturity"
of the developer community. Too many Pick programmers see the latest
technology as "here today, gone tomorrow" so they are not inspired to
learn it, much less create feature-rich software that implements it
Have people who criticised U2 interfaces actually worked with other database
applications. Remember the joke "What hardware and operating system doe Oracle
best run on, a projector and powerpoint". Too much of the competitors'
products are gloss and when it comes to writing applications they b
-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Kevin King
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 6:33 PM
To: U2 Users List
Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
John, just spent a couple minutes on the site. Nice job! Isn't jQuery
John, just spent a couple minutes on the site. Nice job! Isn't jQuery just
amazing?
-Kevin
http://www.PrecisOnline.com
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Brian, I respect your disagreement, and - to a point - disagree with it.
You are correct we have a plethora of connectivity options, but I disagree
that UO is the best connector bar none. You are coming from Universe, I am
coming from Unidata, and from Unidata, UO has historically been a mess,
es
Kevin
>The only thing that
>I see holding us back is the maturity of our connectivity options
It's not often I disagree with you, but here I must..
We don't lack mature interfaces. We have UO.Net; UOJ; web services - now
both XML and JSON; WebDE - not to mention third party alternatives. With
2011 4:14 PM
> To: U2 Users List
> Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
>
> We just unveiled a new web 2.0 site last month that we're all very
> proud
> of around here. It makes extensive use of AJAX, jQuery, a lot of fancy
> CSS, and UniVerse on the back end. Maybe we co
05 AM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
As I've said before, U2 is growing, there was double digit sales growth
last
year. But it is also changing, end users are increasingly not employing
programmers of any sort. Software development is more and more a
fu
>> And as to dot-net... why complicate the hell out of a good thing like
the
>> web? :)
Amen, Brother.
Charles Shaffer
Senior Analyst
NTN-Bower Corporation
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I'm with Symeon, if this were Facebook I'd "like" George Land's comment.
But that brings me to my point: We need to be the ones creating the "next
Facebook" or whatever that is. Until our applications fully embrace web
technology as a primary infrastructure instead of a bolt-on to green screen
ap
t; To: U2 Users List
> Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
>
> "Pick" a cloud, any cloud!
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-
> > boun...@listserver
"Pick" a cloud, any cloud!
> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-
> boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brutzman
> What? No U2 Cloud?
>
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What? No U2 Cloud?
--B
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>> it is all about web integration, smartphones, tablets,
>>good looking and easily usable UIs. We have a platform on which we can
do
>>that easier than most other technologies, but it's about new skills
blended
>>with U2, pure U2 doesn't cut it any more.
Well said.
Rocket needs to create a de
If this was facebook I would click like.
-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Mike Randall
Sent: 26 April 2011 17:58
To: 'U2 Users List'
Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Doug,
I think yo
t eaten.Embrace .Net and web...
>
> Mike Randall
>
> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
> [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch
> Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 10:53 AM
> To: U2 Users List
> Subject: R
il 26, 2011 10:53 AM
To: U2 Users List
Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
The problem is two parts. First, we programmers have failed to show
management that we have the skill set to "Innovate or Die". Secondly, we
have managers that are happy they are employed and don't know or
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Doug Averch
Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 7:53 AM
To: U2 Users List
Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
The problem is two parts. First, we programmers have failed to show
management that we have the
The problem is two parts. First, we programmers have failed to show
management that we have the skill set to "Innovate or Die". Secondly, we
have managers that are happy they are employed and don't know or care what
U2 can do. Maybe this is because they don't know or perhaps we have not
done any
Hi Karl,
Your story/post sound very similar to one that I would post. I am relatively
new to this forum and have not posted much either.
I too am a 25+ year veteran of Pick/Multivalue/U2 sytems and find myself
unemployed. I live in Canada and in the past 6 months or so, there has been
2 Pick rela
Karl, I never knew thee, but I wish you the absolute best. Whatever your
career takes you, own your future!
-Kevin
http://www.PrecisOnline.com
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)
-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Martin Scholl
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 6:51 PM
To: 'U2 Users List'
Subject: Re: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
Know the feeling.
There is only so much rejection one
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 12:29 AM
To: U2 Users List
Subject: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
I'm not sure if most, or any, of you actually know me, but here's what
amounts to my swan song.
For the past 18+ years I've been a decent UV DBA. I took classes from Mark
Baldridge and later Joel
Karl,
Like you, I'm not a frequent poster, but I remember your occasional
contributions as very useful and enlightening the humor and clarity help.
There's an ebb and flow to I.T. and the tool set changes accordingly, so I
won't be surprised to see you back later...
But regardless ... Go
st
Subject: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
I'm not sure if most, or any, of you actually know me, but here's what
amounts to my swan song.
For the past 18+ years I've been a decent UV DBA. I took classes from Mark
Baldridge and later Joel Yates way back when to learn how to manually
repa
I love your signature quotes. I hope you enjoy your new job.
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Good luck Karl... We will miss you.
--Bill
-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Karl Pearson
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 12:29 AM
To: U2 Users List
Subject: [U2] Saying Goodbye...
I'm not sure if
I'm not sure if most, or any, of you actually know me, but here's what
amounts to my swan song.
For the past 18+ years I've been a decent UV DBA. I took classes from Mark
Baldridge and later Joel Yates way back when to learn how to manually
repair corrupt files, and was proficient before uniVerse
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