Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Dear all, 

As this is the LibreOffice user mailing list would you be kind enough to take 
this discussion elsewhere, for instance the Thunderbird mailing list?

Thanks,

Charles.
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Paul D. Mirowsky]

On 3/3/2016 2:44 PM, Felmon Davis wrote:

On Thu, 3 Mar 2016, Paul D. Mirowsky wrote:

My experience with IMAP through a browser is helping friends install 
Thunderbird, friends who have had there account taken over in AOL, MS 
Mail and YaHoo.
When I install Thunderbird, I suggest to them that it does not 
require using a browser, greatly reducing the chance of being tripped 
up on  websites.


Some have gone to POP, others have stayed with IMAP on Thunderbird 
and are very happy.  The only reason they ever choose IMAP is 
synchronization.


In extending Thunderbird with this capability

1. Make secured e-mails without trusting the the server. Security ends
  where trust starts. I trust Mozilla to produce a safe POP client and
  trust LibreOffice would be in kind if they where to take it over.
2. Have Thunderbird POP installed on multiple devices that align
  themselves to e-mail address(es) securely without the interaction of
  a server except for PGP.


I'm not sure I wholly grasp what you are proposing but this is a bit 
clearer.


the best I can make out, the advantage you seek is to prevent 
confidential data from sitting on servers open to prying eyes.


I don't see how using POP achieves this as it involves a server and as 
Tansfaafl has pointed out security can be achieved with encryption 
(whether POP or IMAP, or diskette, or usb drive etc).

I think I was scrambling several separate ideas in my head.

1. Thunderbird POP client generates a synchronization file.
2. Securing the synchronization file for transfer with PGP
3. Synchronization files are a special case, that within the
   Thunderbird program, are handled differently than a regular e-mail,
   but look like standard e-mail to the server.
1. Because Thunderbird POP creates its own synchronized file, it is
   not dependent on the e-mail server to control deleted, new or
   marked e-mails.
2. If the mail server(s) are stripped to only message passing for
   POP, it would be simpler, quicker and easier for code review.
3. Thunderbird is the true source of control for these actions, as
   this is so, the security comes with Thunderbird, not the server(s).

This part is a concept of a middle ground between TOR mail services and 
IMAP.

I think I've beat it to death or pushed it to life.

Thanks
Paul



sorry the tone of the conversation got rude - computer people 
sometimes are like overly sensitive artists (oops! now I've insulted 
two crowds!).


well, interesing but this topic on this thread is probably at its end. 
to insure it, I'm saying Hitler likes your ideas!  that should do it.


f.



In regards to LibreOffice

1. Sharing document to online services in the cloud is OK, but why does
  it have to be Google or Microsoft some other document sharing
  service. People want to share their information within a limited
  scope of addressees.  If LibreOffice 
  it is already leaning in that direction, why not push it a little 
more.

2. The graphical interface of LibreOffice has made some huge strides.
  If LibreOffice took over Thunderbird, wouldn't it be great to have a
  'Properties' panel on the right to e-mail.
3. If we already have , why
  shouldn't it push those changes to a pre-defined list of people
  automatically via Thunderbird.

I just don't believe that because somebody else already did it, it 
couldn't done better and couldn't be done without a server. Probably 
more than 80% the of technology is already written in LibreOffice and 
Thunderbird.  It is not starting from zero as has been implied.


Thank you for listening
Paul


On 3/3/2016 4:09 AM, Felmon Davis wrote:

Paul,

for the benefit of us lurkers trying to follow this discussion, 
could you in a brief statement explain why you think POP should be 
preferred? (I believe this is your general point? if not, a clear 
statement is welcome.)


I used to use POP (and it's still set up on a couple of my machines 
albeit not currently in use) but mainly I'm on IMAP. what I liked 
about POP was the ease of making local backups of email. it's been a 
couple of yrs since I've explored options in IMAP but that's 
probably not a big issue now.


anyway, please, just a brief statement of your take would be helpful.

and please, no violence, gentlemen -- no violence, I beg of you! 
Consider the furniture!


f.










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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Felmon Davis]

On Thu, 3 Mar 2016, Tanstaafl wrote:


On 3/3/2016 10:18 AM, Davis, Felmon  wrote:

On Mar 3, 2016 7:19 AM, "James Knott"  wrote:

You should be able to configure your IMAP client to download messages
for "offline" mode.  There is also an archive function.



yeah, like I said, got to do my research again. at the time I was wrestling
with gmail


Google provides a way to download backups of all of your google stuff
(calendars, contacts and email) in one fell swoop:

https://takeout.google.com/settings/takeout


thanks. actually I now recall getting this far but for some reason 
(perhaps distraction) didn't go further. they had just introduced it.


will look at it.


though I'd love an easy/easier way to mount a google-drive, but
that's a different matter and off-topic.


https://www.google.com/drive/download/


this is some kind of app?

this is not for mounting the drive in Linux. to do that you have to 
use a complicated job called ocamlfuse 



it requires several minutes of compilation. it works fine on one 
laptop but I haven't gotten it to compile on one of other laptop.


well, there are other possibilities out there but research time for 
this stuff is scarce, for now one laptop is good enough.


thank you for the ideas! it's like a free lunch of insights!

f.

--
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Death to all fanatics!


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Felmon Davis]

On Thu, 3 Mar 2016, Paul D. Mirowsky wrote:

My experience with IMAP through a browser is helping friends install 
Thunderbird, friends who have had there account taken over in AOL, MS Mail 
and YaHoo.
When I install Thunderbird, I suggest to them that it does not require using 
a browser, greatly reducing the chance of being tripped up on  
websites.


Some have gone to POP, others have stayed with IMAP on Thunderbird and are 
very happy.  The only reason they ever choose IMAP is synchronization.


In extending Thunderbird with this capability

1. Make secured e-mails without trusting the the server. Security ends
  where trust starts. I trust Mozilla to produce a safe POP client and
  trust LibreOffice would be in kind if they where to take it over.
2. Have Thunderbird POP installed on multiple devices that align
  themselves to e-mail address(es) securely without the interaction of
  a server except for PGP.


I'm not sure I wholly grasp what you are proposing but this is a bit 
clearer.


the best I can make out, the advantage you seek is to prevent 
confidential data from sitting on servers open to prying eyes.


I don't see how using POP achieves this as it involves a server and as 
Tansfaafl has pointed out security can be achieved with encryption 
(whether POP or IMAP, or diskette, or usb drive etc).


sorry the tone of the conversation got rude - computer people 
sometimes are like overly sensitive artists (oops! now I've insulted 
two crowds!).


well, interesing but this topic on this thread is probably at its end. 
to insure it, I'm saying Hitler likes your ideas!  that should do 
it.


f.



In regards to LibreOffice

1. Sharing document to online services in the cloud is OK, but why does
  it have to be Google or Microsoft some other document sharing
  service. People want to share their information within a limited
  scope of addressees.  If LibreOffice 
  it is already leaning in that direction, why not push it a little more.
2. The graphical interface of LibreOffice has made some huge strides.
  If LibreOffice took over Thunderbird, wouldn't it be great to have a
  'Properties' panel on the right to e-mail.
3. If we already have , why
  shouldn't it push those changes to a pre-defined list of people
  automatically via Thunderbird.

I just don't believe that because somebody else already did it, it couldn't 
done better and couldn't be done without a server. Probably more than 80% the 
of technology is already written in LibreOffice and Thunderbird.  It is not 
starting from zero as has been implied.


Thank you for listening
Paul


On 3/3/2016 4:09 AM, Felmon Davis wrote:

Paul,

for the benefit of us lurkers trying to follow this discussion, could you 
in a brief statement explain why you think POP should be preferred? (I 
believe this is your general point? if not, a clear statement is welcome.)


I used to use POP (and it's still set up on a couple of my machines albeit 
not currently in use) but mainly I'm on IMAP. what I liked about POP was 
the ease of making local backups of email. it's been a couple of yrs since 
I've explored options in IMAP but that's probably not a big issue now.


anyway, please, just a brief statement of your take would be helpful.

and please, no violence, gentlemen -- no violence, I beg of you! Consider 
the furniture!


f.







--
Felmon Davis

If you mess with a thing long enough, it'll break.
-- Schmidt


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Tanstaafl]

PLONK

On 3/3/2016 1:12 PM, Paul D. Mirowsky  wrote:
> Thank you taking the time to repeatedly note the level of my intelligence.
> 
> Regretfully, It has not resulted in any clear and/or concise explanations.
> 
> No why, no when and no how.
> 
> My apologies to others on this list.
> Paul


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Paul D. Mirowsky]

Thank you taking the time to repeatedly note the level of my intelligence.

Regretfully, It has not resulted in any clear and/or concise explanations.

No why, no when and no how.

My apologies to others on this list.
Paul

On 3/3/2016 12:38 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:

Will never, ever happen, because it is a STUPID IDEA.

Sorry, been trying to not be so rude, but, well, sometimes there is no
other way.

OF course, I am wrong - there is one way something like that might
actually ever be attempted - if you write it yourself.

I'd say good luck, but it isn't a factor...

On 3/3/2016 12:30 PM, Paul D. Mirowsky  wrote:

Edit

2. Have Thunderbird POP installed on multiple devices that align
 themselves to e-mail address(es) securely without the interaction of
 a server except for PGP and message store and forward.





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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Tanstaafl]

Will never, ever happen, because it is a STUPID IDEA.

Sorry, been trying to not be so rude, but, well, sometimes there is no
other way.

OF course, I am wrong - there is one way something like that might
actually ever be attempted - if you write it yourself.

I'd say good luck, but it isn't a factor...

On 3/3/2016 12:30 PM, Paul D. Mirowsky  wrote:
> Edit
> 
> 2. Have Thunderbird POP installed on multiple devices that align
> themselves to e-mail address(es) securely without the interaction of
> a server except for PGP and message store and forward.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Paul D. Mirowsky]

Edit

2. Have Thunderbird POP installed on multiple devices that align
   themselves to e-mail address(es) securely without the interaction of
   a server except for PGP and message store and forward.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Tanstaafl]

On 3/3/2016 12:10 PM, Paul D. Mirowsky  wrote:
>  1. Make secured e-mails without trusting the the server. Security ends
> where trust starts.

So, learn how to use encryption (PGP) end to end. That is the only way
to ensure secure email.

The problem you'll have is getting the people you correspond with to
cooperate. Many probably simply won't (incapable technically, or don't
want to bother).

> I trust Mozilla to produce a safe POP client

I don't mind if Mozilla maintains the POP capability of TB, but I'll
never use it.

>  2. Have Thunderbird POP installed on multiple devices that align
> themselves to e-mail address(es) securely without the interaction of
> a server except for PGP.

Again, such a statement just displays your ignorance with respect to
mail clients and servers to the world.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Paul D. Mirowsky]

My experience with IMAP through a browser is helping friends install 
Thunderbird, friends who have had there account taken over in AOL, MS 
Mail and YaHoo.
When I install Thunderbird, I suggest to them that it does not require 
using a browser, greatly reducing the chance of being tripped up on 
 websites.


Some have gone to POP, others have stayed with IMAP on Thunderbird and 
are very happy.  The only reason they ever choose IMAP is synchronization.


In extending Thunderbird with this capability

1. Make secured e-mails without trusting the the server. Security ends
   where trust starts. I trust Mozilla to produce a safe POP client and
   trust LibreOffice would be in kind if they where to take it over.
2. Have Thunderbird POP installed on multiple devices that align
   themselves to e-mail address(es) securely without the interaction of
   a server except for PGP.

In regards to LibreOffice

1. Sharing document to online services in the cloud is OK, but why does
   it have to be Google or Microsoft some other document sharing
   service. People want to share their information within a limited
   scope of addressees.  If LibreOffice 
   it is already leaning in that direction, why not push it a little more.
2. The graphical interface of LibreOffice has made some huge strides.
   If LibreOffice took over Thunderbird, wouldn't it be great to have a
   'Properties' panel on the right to e-mail.
3. If we already have , why
   shouldn't it push those changes to a pre-defined list of people
   automatically via Thunderbird.

I just don't believe that because somebody else already did it, it 
couldn't done better and couldn't be done without a server. Probably 
more than 80% the of technology is already written in LibreOffice and 
Thunderbird.  It is not starting from zero as has been implied.


Thank you for listening
Paul


On 3/3/2016 4:09 AM, Felmon Davis wrote:

Paul,

for the benefit of us lurkers trying to follow this discussion, could 
you in a brief statement explain why you think POP should be 
preferred? (I believe this is your general point? if not, a clear 
statement is welcome.)


I used to use POP (and it's still set up on a couple of my machines 
albeit not currently in use) but mainly I'm on IMAP. what I liked 
about POP was the ease of making local backups of email. it's been a 
couple of yrs since I've explored options in IMAP but that's probably 
not a big issue now.


anyway, please, just a brief statement of your take would be helpful.

and please, no violence, gentlemen -- no violence, I beg of you! 
Consider the furniture!


f.




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Tanstaafl]

On 3/3/2016 10:18 AM, Davis, Felmon  wrote:
> On Mar 3, 2016 7:19 AM, "James Knott"  wrote:
>> You should be able to configure your IMAP client to download messages
>> for "offline" mode.  There is also an archive function.

> yeah, like I said, got to do my research again. at the time I was wrestling
> with gmail

Google provides a way to download backups of all of your google stuff
(calendars, contacts and email) in one fell swoop:

https://takeout.google.com/settings/takeout

> though I'd love an easy/easier way to mount a google-drive, but
> that's a different matter and off-topic.

https://www.google.com/drive/download/

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Davis, Felmon]

On Mar 3, 2016 7:19 AM, "James Knott"  wrote:
>
> On 03/03/2016 04:09 AM, Felmon Davis wrote:
> > I used to use POP (and it's still set up on a couple of my machines
> > albeit not currently in use) but mainly I'm on IMAP. what I liked
> > about POP was the ease of making local backups of email. it's been a
> > couple of yrs since I've explored options in IMAP but that's probably
> > not a big issue now.
>
> You should be able to configure your IMAP client to download messages
> for "offline" mode.  There is also an archive function.

yeah, like I said, got to do my research again. at the time I was wrestling
with gmail though I'd love an easy/easier way to mount a google-drive, but
that's a different matter and off-topic.

f.
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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[James Knott]

On 03/03/2016 04:09 AM, Felmon Davis wrote:
> I used to use POP (and it's still set up on a couple of my machines
> albeit not currently in use) but mainly I'm on IMAP. what I liked
> about POP was the ease of making local backups of email. it's been a
> couple of yrs since I've explored options in IMAP but that's probably
> not a big issue now.

You should be able to configure your IMAP client to download messages
for "offline" mode.  There is also an archive function.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Felmon Davis]

Paul,

for the benefit of us lurkers trying to follow this discussion, could 
you in a brief statement explain why you think POP should be 
preferred? (I believe this is your general point? if not, a clear 
statement is welcome.)


I used to use POP (and it's still set up on a couple of my machines 
albeit not currently in use) but mainly I'm on IMAP. what I liked 
about POP was the ease of making local backups of email. it's been a 
couple of yrs since I've explored options in IMAP but that's probably 
not a big issue now.


anyway, please, just a brief statement of your take would be helpful.

and please, no violence, gentlemen -- no violence, I beg of you! 
Consider the furniture!


f.

--
Felmon Davis

Out of the crooked timber of humanity no straight thing can ever be 
made.

-- Immanuel Kant


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[James Knott]

On 03/02/2016 05:57 PM, toki wrote:
>> Also, if you're leaving email on a POP server for a period of time,
> it's going to be there when someone comes looking for it.
>
> That is not the threat model I was addressing.

Then what was it?


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[toki]

On 02/03/2016 22:26, James Knott wrote:

>Also, if you're leaving email on a POP server for a period of time,
it's going to be there when someone comes looking for it.

That is not the threat model I was addressing.

jonathon

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[James Knott]

On 03/02/2016 05:08 PM, toki wrote:
> If, as is usually done with IMAP, the email is stored on a server that
> is neither owned, nor operated, nor controlled by the recipient of the
> email, then the security issue is the IMAP vendor turning that email
> over to third parties without your knowledge, authorization, or consent.
> US Law is clear that such email _can_ legally be turned over to third
> parties, if certain specific conditions are met. It is extremely
> difficult for IMAP users to be out of compliance with those specific
> conditions. The irony here is that when the law was passed, not only was
> the norm to be out of compliance, but the being in compliance with those
> conditions took a series of active steps, on the part of the end user.
> Back then, no matter how hard Joe Sixpack tried, he would not have in
> compliance with those conditions.(Ah, the days when 100 kb mailboxes
> were the norm, and mail sysadmins were ruthless about delting your
> email, regardless of your desires.)

If you're worried about that then any email server is a risk, other than
your own.  Until recently, all email was sent as plain text over the
public Internet.  It was very easy to intercept.  Also, if you're
leaving email on a POP server for a period of time, it's going to be
there when someone comes looking for it.  If you really want security,
the answer is, as it has been for centuries, use encryption.  Many
people already do that with PGP or X.509 certificates.  Always assume
the "enemy" can eavesdrop on your communications, so protect the content
with encryption.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[toki]

On 02/03/2016 21:40, James Knott wrote:

> Also, how is IMAP a security problem,

If, as is usually done with IMAP, the email is stored on a server that
is neither owned, nor operated, nor controlled by the recipient of the
email, then the security issue is the IMAP vendor turning that email
over to third parties without your knowledge, authorization, or consent.
US Law is clear that such email _can_ legally be turned over to third
parties, if certain specific conditions are met. It is extremely
difficult for IMAP users to be out of compliance with those specific
conditions. The irony here is that when the law was passed, not only was
the norm to be out of compliance, but the being in compliance with those
conditions took a series of active steps, on the part of the end user.
Back then, no matter how hard Joe Sixpack tried, he would not have in
compliance with those conditions.(Ah, the days when 100 kb mailboxes
were the norm, and mail sysadmins were ruthless about delting your
email, regardless of your desires.)

jonathon

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[James Knott]

On 03/02/2016 03:46 PM, Paul D. Mirowsky wrote:
> Thunderbird is a database of information.  The fact that there is no
> data replication built in is not the inhibiting factor to doing so.

It is an email client, nothing more.  If you want replication, you're
going to need some means for all clients to sync.  An IMAP server does
precisely that.

> The  use of Key Exchange for the data replication suggests a way of
> safely internally exchanging the replicated data.
> Most of the engine to use it is already in Thunderbird.
> Please see
> https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/digitally-signing-and-encrypting-messages
>
>
> Why are they not applicable "serverless mail synchronization of local
> mail stores"?

Key exchange is simply a method of exchanging encryption keys.  I
mentioned this earlier in the context of directory servers.  However
those are not the same as syncing email over multiple devices and,
again, key exchange requires a server.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[James Knott]

On 03/02/2016 12:06 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:
>> IMAP is a security risk that increases the attack surface area. YaHoo, 
>> > should I say more.
> No, you really shouldn't, because you obviously don't know what you're
> talking about.
>
> The only thing IMAP *might* have in common with Yahoo is that Yahoo
> *may* support the protocol (whether or not it does, and if so how well,
> is another question that I have zero interest in, because anyone who
> uses it for email is someone who doesn't have a clue).

Yahoo has supported IMAP for a few years now.  Of course they're not the
only IMAP provider. 

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[James Knott]

On 03/02/2016 11:32 AM, Paul D. Mirowsky wrote:
> IMAP is a pre-existing condition.
>
> The ability for POP clients to keep all of their shared clients
> current is a glaring omission that should be rectified.
> I regret not having the ability to do this myself.

I guess you don't know much about the history of email.  Originally,
people read their email on the computer it was delivered to.  Then POP
allowed them to download to another computer, such as those new fangled
"PCs".  POP was never intended to be used by more than one device. 
Simply leaving a message on the server for a period of time, so that it
could be read on another device, was nothing more than a hack to get
around the limitations of POP.  What you're asking for is a complete
redesign of POP and you still won't have what IMAP is designed to do. 
Also, how is IMAP a security problem, given that the entire Internet is
not secure and mail servers are finally moving to StartTSL to encrypt
between servers.  I run my own IMAP server and access it only via SSL/TLS

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Tanstaafl]

On 3/2/2016 4:00 PM, Paul D. Mirowsky  wrote:
> On 3/2/2016 2:17 PM, toki wrote:
>> Can you please rephrase that.
>> If you literally mean what you wrote, then please study both the POP and
>> IMAP protocol specifications, before making any suggestions as to what
>> should be considered for either an email host, or an email client.

> If LibreOffice where to involve itself with Thunderbird, It should meet 
> the standard.
> That is to say that if used on its own, it meets the standard of 
> POP...But with LibreOffice, it can do much more.

Paul, would you please just stop talking about a subject about which you
obviously know LESS than nothing?

You're giving me a headache from so much laughing.



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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Paul D. Mirowsky]

On 3/2/2016 2:17 PM, toki wrote:

On 02/03/2016 16:32, Paul D. Mirowsky wrote:


The ability for POP clients to keep all of their shared clients current is a 
glaring omission that should be rectified.

Can you please rephrase that.
If you literally mean what you wrote, then please study both the POP and
IMAP protocol specifications, before making any suggestions as to what
should be considered for either an email host, or an email client.
If LibreOffice where to involve itself with Thunderbird, It should meet 
the standard.
That is to say that if used on its own, it meets the standard of 
POP...But with LibreOffice, it can do much more.



IMAP is a security risk that increases the attack surface area.

As far as security, both IMAP and POP are security risks. They are
solutions to different threat models.

jonathon

As true a statement as can written or read.

Thanks
Paul


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Paul D. Mirowsky]

What relates
Thunderbird is a database of information.  The fact that there is no 
data replication built in is not the inhibiting factor to doing so.


I have underlined the pertinent words from a quoted definition from the 
previously mentioned URL.


http://searchsqlserver.techtarget.com/definition/database-replication

*Database replication* is the frequent electronic copying data _from a 
__*database*__in __one computer__or server__to a __*database*__in 
another__so that all users share the same level of information._ The 
result is a distributed *database* in which users can access data 
relevant to their tasks without interfering with the work of others.

I believe it says "computer or server" not just server.

*Pretty Good Privacy* (*PGP*) is a data encryption 
 and decryption 
computer program  that 
provides cryptographic  
privacy  and authentication 
 for data communication. 
PGP is often used for signing, encrypting, and decrypting 
 texts, e-mails, files, 
directories, and whole disk partitions and to increase the security of 
e-mail communications.

Quoted from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy

The  use of Key Exchange for the data replication suggests a way of 
safely internally exchanging the replicated data.

Most of the engine to use it is already in Thunderbird.
Please see 
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/digitally-signing-and-encrypting-messages


Why are they not applicable "serverless mail synchronization of local 
mail stores"?




On 3/2/2016 2:45 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:

Neither of which relate to serverless mail synchronization of local mail
stores.

On 3/2/2016 1:17 PM, Paul D. Mirowsky  wrote:

Ok, I don't know what Data Replication is.
Please see
http://searchsqlserver.techtarget.com/definition/database-replication




I don't know what Key Exchange is.
Please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U62S8SchxX4

But I think somebody does.





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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Tanstaafl]

Neither of which relate to serverless mail synchronization of local mail
stores.

On 3/2/2016 1:17 PM, Paul D. Mirowsky  wrote:
> Ok, I don't know what Data Replication is.
> Please see 
> http://searchsqlserver.techtarget.com/definition/database-replication
> 
> I don't know what Key Exchange is.
> Please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U62S8SchxX4
> 
> But I think somebody does.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[toki]

On 02/03/2016 16:32, Paul D. Mirowsky wrote:

> The ability for POP clients to keep all of their shared clients current is a 
> glaring omission that should be rectified.

Can you please rephrase that.
If you literally mean what you wrote, then please study both the POP and
IMAP protocol specifications, before making any suggestions as to what
should be considered for either an email host, or an email client.

> IMAP is a security risk that increases the attack surface area.

As far as security, both IMAP and POP are security risks. They are
solutions to different threat models.

jonathon

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Paul D. Mirowsky]

Ok, I don't know what Data Replication is.
Please see 
http://searchsqlserver.techtarget.com/definition/database-replication


I don't know what Key Exchange is.
Please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U62S8SchxX4

But I think somebody does.

On 3/2/2016 12:06 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:

On 3/2/2016 11:32 AM, Paul D. Mirowsky  wrote:

We're talking POP and Thunderbird.

And like I said, POP simply isn't designed for such usage.


IMAP is a pre-existing condition.

No idea what you mean by that.


The ability for POP clients to keep all of their shared clients current
is a glaring omission that should be rectified.

It was, a very long time ago. The rectification is called:

IMAP.


IMAP is a security risk that increases the attack surface area. YaHoo,
should I say more.

No, you really shouldn't, because you obviously don't know what you're
talking about.

The only thing IMAP *might* have in common with Yahoo is that Yahoo
*may* support the protocol (whether or not it does, and if so how well,
is another question that I have zero interest in, because anyone who
uses it for email is someone who doesn't have a clue).




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Tanstaafl]

On 3/2/2016 11:32 AM, Paul D. Mirowsky  wrote:
> We're talking POP and Thunderbird.

And like I said, POP simply isn't designed for such usage.

> IMAP is a pre-existing condition.

No idea what you mean by that.

> The ability for POP clients to keep all of their shared clients current 
> is a glaring omission that should be rectified.

It was, a very long time ago. The rectification is called:

IMAP.

> IMAP is a security risk that increases the attack surface area. YaHoo, 
> should I say more.

No, you really shouldn't, because you obviously don't know what you're
talking about.

The only thing IMAP *might* have in common with Yahoo is that Yahoo
*may* support the protocol (whether or not it does, and if so how well,
is another question that I have zero interest in, because anyone who
uses it for email is someone who doesn't have a clue).

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Paul D. Mirowsky]

We're talking POP and Thunderbird.

IMAP is a pre-existing condition.

The ability for POP clients to keep all of their shared clients current 
is a glaring omission that should be rectified.

I regret not having the ability to do this myself.

IMAP is a security risk that increases the attack surface area. YaHoo, 
should I say more.


The only rational solution is to get in the boat to make sure the earth 
isn't flat.


When we engage in conversation, we are working together to find an 
answer, even if they are different questions. We are stepping into the boat.


I hope we've inspired someone who is capable of doing this to begin 
their journey.


Thank you Tanstaafl


On 2/29/2016 10:25 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:

Oh - not to mention that it doesn't even accomplish the goal.

What about all of the email prior to adding 'Thunderbird 3' to the mix?
Or your new phone?

As I said, IMAP is the only sane, rational solution.

On 2/29/2016 10:23 PM, Tanstaafl  wrote:

Possible? Sure, anything is possible, but this is way too breakable to
even give serious consideration to.

On 2/29/2016 3:10 PM, Paul D. Mirowsky  wrote:

Each e-mail address has its own "STATUS" file.
"STATUS" file e-mails are not deletable from the POP mail server unless
specifically commanded to delete them within Thunderbird via a separate
command
   or when all "STATUS" files are duplicated based on time stamp.
"STATUS" files are based on changes and store individual e-mails and/or
their marking (New, Deleted, Un-read)
The frequency of generating time stamped "STATUS" files is based on file
size of STATUS file.
"STATUS" file e-mail may only be transmitted with PGP or some form of
encryption.
"STATUS" files are created chronologically, each access adds to the
stack to be sent between Thunderbird 1, 2, 3...N
The checking of "STATUS" file happens within Thunderbird


Thunderbird 1<---> POP mail server <--> Thunderbird 2

Thunderbird 1 receives e-mail < -- POP mail server

Thunderbird 1 creates "STATUS" file based on changes (New, Deleted, Un-read)

Thunderbird 1 sends "STATUS" file via e-mail in PGP encrypted file --->
POP mail server

POP mail server --> Thunderbird 2 receives e-mail including PGP
encrypted "STATUS" file

Thunderbird 2 says "You have received a "STATUS", Processing "STATUS"
file now.

Thunderbird 3 added and receives "STATUS" file e-mail < -- POP mail server

Thunderbird 3says "You have received a "STATUS", Processing "STATUS"
file now.

Thunderbird 3 sends "STATUS" file via e-mail in PGP encrypted file --->
POP mail server

I didn't say it was easy, but it is possible.
Think of it as a very unique and fancy Message filter.





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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Tanstaafl]

Oh - not to mention that it doesn't even accomplish the goal.

What about all of the email prior to adding 'Thunderbird 3' to the mix?
Or your new phone?

As I said, IMAP is the only sane, rational solution.

On 2/29/2016 10:23 PM, Tanstaafl  wrote:
> Possible? Sure, anything is possible, but this is way too breakable to
> even give serious consideration to.
> 
> On 2/29/2016 3:10 PM, Paul D. Mirowsky  wrote:
>> Each e-mail address has its own "STATUS" file.
>> "STATUS" file e-mails are not deletable from the POP mail server unless 
>> specifically commanded to delete them within Thunderbird via a separate 
>> command
>>   or when all "STATUS" files are duplicated based on time stamp.
>> "STATUS" files are based on changes and store individual e-mails and/or 
>> their marking (New, Deleted, Un-read)
>> The frequency of generating time stamped "STATUS" files is based on file 
>> size of STATUS file.
>> "STATUS" file e-mail may only be transmitted with PGP or some form of 
>> encryption.
>> "STATUS" files are created chronologically, each access adds to the 
>> stack to be sent between Thunderbird 1, 2, 3...N
>> The checking of "STATUS" file happens within Thunderbird
>>
>>
>> Thunderbird 1<---> POP mail server <--> Thunderbird 2
>>
>> Thunderbird 1 receives e-mail < -- POP mail server
>>
>> Thunderbird 1 creates "STATUS" file based on changes (New, Deleted, Un-read)
>>
>> Thunderbird 1 sends "STATUS" file via e-mail in PGP encrypted file ---> 
>> POP mail server
>>
>> POP mail server --> Thunderbird 2 receives e-mail including PGP 
>> encrypted "STATUS" file
>>
>> Thunderbird 2 says "You have received a "STATUS", Processing "STATUS" 
>> file now.
>>
>> Thunderbird 3 added and receives "STATUS" file e-mail < -- POP mail server
>>
>> Thunderbird 3says "You have received a "STATUS", Processing "STATUS" 
>> file now.
>>
>> Thunderbird 3 sends "STATUS" file via e-mail in PGP encrypted file ---> 
>> POP mail server
>>
>> I didn't say it was easy, but it is possible.
>> Think of it as a very unique and fancy Message filter.
> 


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Tanstaafl]

Possible? Sure, anything is possible, but this is way too breakable to
even give serious consideration to.

On 2/29/2016 3:10 PM, Paul D. Mirowsky  wrote:
> Each e-mail address has its own "STATUS" file.
> "STATUS" file e-mails are not deletable from the POP mail server unless 
> specifically commanded to delete them within Thunderbird via a separate 
> command
>   or when all "STATUS" files are duplicated based on time stamp.
> "STATUS" files are based on changes and store individual e-mails and/or 
> their marking (New, Deleted, Un-read)
> The frequency of generating time stamped "STATUS" files is based on file 
> size of STATUS file.
> "STATUS" file e-mail may only be transmitted with PGP or some form of 
> encryption.
> "STATUS" files are created chronologically, each access adds to the 
> stack to be sent between Thunderbird 1, 2, 3...N
> The checking of "STATUS" file happens within Thunderbird
> 
> 
> Thunderbird 1<---> POP mail server <--> Thunderbird 2
> 
> Thunderbird 1 receives e-mail < -- POP mail server
> 
> Thunderbird 1 creates "STATUS" file based on changes (New, Deleted, Un-read)
> 
> Thunderbird 1 sends "STATUS" file via e-mail in PGP encrypted file ---> 
> POP mail server
> 
> POP mail server --> Thunderbird 2 receives e-mail including PGP 
> encrypted "STATUS" file
> 
> Thunderbird 2 says "You have received a "STATUS", Processing "STATUS" 
> file now.
> 
> Thunderbird 3 added and receives "STATUS" file e-mail < -- POP mail server
> 
> Thunderbird 3says "You have received a "STATUS", Processing "STATUS" 
> file now.
> 
> Thunderbird 3 sends "STATUS" file via e-mail in PGP encrypted file ---> 
> POP mail server
> 
> I didn't say it was easy, but it is possible.
> Think of it as a very unique and fancy Message filter.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Paul D. Mirowsky]

Each e-mail address has its own "STATUS" file.
"STATUS" file e-mails are not deletable from the POP mail server unless 
specifically commanded to delete them within Thunderbird via a separate 
command

 or when all "STATUS" files are duplicated based on time stamp.
"STATUS" files are based on changes and store individual e-mails and/or 
their marking (New, Deleted, Un-read)
The frequency of generating time stamped "STATUS" files is based on file 
size of STATUS file.
"STATUS" file e-mail may only be transmitted with PGP or some form of 
encryption.
"STATUS" files are created chronologically, each access adds to the 
stack to be sent between Thunderbird 1, 2, 3...N

The checking of "STATUS" file happens within Thunderbird


Thunderbird 1<---> POP mail server <--> Thunderbird 2

Thunderbird 1 receives e-mail < -- POP mail server

Thunderbird 1 creates "STATUS" file based on changes (New, Deleted, Un-read)

Thunderbird 1 sends "STATUS" file via e-mail in PGP encrypted file ---> 
POP mail server


POP mail server --> Thunderbird 2 receives e-mail including PGP 
encrypted "STATUS" file


Thunderbird 2 says "You have received a "STATUS", Processing "STATUS" 
file now.


Thunderbird 3 added and receives "STATUS" file e-mail < -- POP mail server

Thunderbird 3says "You have received a "STATUS", Processing "STATUS" 
file now.


Thunderbird 3 sends "STATUS" file via e-mail in PGP encrypted file ---> 
POP mail server



I didn't say it was easy, but it is possible.
Think of it as a very unique and fancy Message filter.



On 2/29/2016 1:18 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:

On 2/29/2016 12:57 PM, Paul D. Mirowsky  wrote:

While I do plead ignorance about mail servers, software resident on the
users machine can do what it wants.

To a point, yes...


Since PGP already exists in Thunderbird, a server is not required for
updating.

What pray tell does PGP have to with this discussion?


Theoretically, If I'm using TB on two machines that uses a PGP tied to
an e-mail address, both would be allowed to interact about changes to each.

Changes to *what*??


A change in the status, say a "marked as Deleted" creates a time stamped
"STATUS" file.  This file is e-mailed and received when you go to
another machine to get your email in Thunderbird.  Thunderbird says "You
have received a STATUS update. Would you like to apply it? YES / NO.
This is a clue...

No, that is ... again, no offense ... some words uttered by someone
about a subject that they do not know enough about to try to discuss it.




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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Tanstaafl]

On 2/29/2016 12:57 PM, Paul D. Mirowsky  wrote:
> While I do plead ignorance about mail servers, software resident on the 
> users machine can do what it wants.

To a point, yes...

> Since PGP already exists in Thunderbird, a server is not required for 
> updating.

What pray tell does PGP have to with this discussion?

> Theoretically, If I'm using TB on two machines that uses a PGP tied to 
> an e-mail address, both would be allowed to interact about changes to each.

Changes to *what*??

> A change in the status, say a "marked as Deleted" creates a time stamped 
> "STATUS" file.  This file is e-mailed and received when you go to 
> another machine to get your email in Thunderbird.  Thunderbird says "You 
> have received a STATUS update. Would you like to apply it? YES / NO.
> This is a clue...

No, that is ... again, no offense ... some words uttered by someone
about a subject that they do not know enough about to try to discuss it.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Paul D. Mirowsky]

On 2/29/2016 11:33 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:

On 2/29/2016 11:04 AM, Paul D. Mirowsky  wrote:

On 2/27/2016 5:38 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:

Lotus SmartSuite was am integrated mail server/groupware solution.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

You are correct again.  But the question is, how can we put the apple
and the orange together.

Turn TB into a mail *server*? Ain't gonna happen, no reason to.

And - no offense, but - anyone suggesting this hasn't a clue what it
takes to make a real mail server *or* client.

While I do plead ignorance about mail servers, software resident on the 
users machine can do what it wants.
Since PGP already exists in Thunderbird, a server is not required for 
updating.
Theoretically, If I'm using TB on two machines that uses a PGP tied to 
an e-mail address, both would be allowed to interact about changes to each.
A change in the status, say a "marked as Deleted" creates a time stamped 
"STATUS" file.  This file is e-mailed and received when you go to 
another machine to get your email in Thunderbird.  Thunderbird says "You 
have received a STATUS update. Would you like to apply it? YES / NO.

This is a clue...

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Tanstaafl]

On 2/29/2016 11:04 AM, Paul D. Mirowsky  wrote:
> On 2/27/2016 5:38 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:
>> Lotus SmartSuite was am integrated mail server/groupware solution.
>>
>> You're comparing apples and oranges.

> You are correct again.  But the question is, how can we put the apple 
> and the orange together.

Turn TB into a mail *server*? Ain't gonna happen, no reason to.

And - no offense, but - anyone suggesting this hasn't a clue what it
takes to make a real mail server *or* client.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Paul D. Mirowsky]

On 2/27/2016 5:38 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:

On 2/27/2016 2:10 PM, Paul D. Mirowsky  wrote:

One of the things I miss about Lotus SmartSuite is its' TeamMail function.

A quick google suggests this is nothing more than Shared Mailbox
functionality. That is Server functionality, TB is a mail client.
Yes, TB is an e-mail client.  Where should it go from here.  How could 
it enhance the use of LibreOffice.

It also included Team Review, Team Consolidate and Team Security.

Sound like Groupware functionality... ?

You are correct.

It might be old school, but it worked.

If Thunderbird could function within LibreOffice in a similar way, it
would be a great addition.

Lotus SmartSuite was am integrated mail server/groupware solution.

You're comparing apples and oranges.
You are correct again.  But the question is, how can we put the apple 
and the orange together.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Tanstaafl]

On 2/27/2016 2:10 PM, Paul D. Mirowsky  wrote:
> One of the things I miss about Lotus SmartSuite is its' TeamMail function.

A quick google suggests this is nothing more than Shared Mailbox
functionality. That is Server functionality, TB is a mail client.

> It also included Team Review, Team Consolidate and Team Security.

Sound like Groupware functionality... ?

> It might be old school, but it worked.
> 
> If Thunderbird could function within LibreOffice in a similar way, it 
> would be a great addition.

Lotus SmartSuite was am integrated mail server/groupware solution.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Paul D. Mirowsky]

One of the things I miss about Lotus SmartSuite is its' TeamMail function.

It also included Team Review, Team Consolidate and Team Security.

It might be old school, but it worked.

If Thunderbird could function within LibreOffice in a similar way, it 
would be a great addition.


Support for SmartSuite ended 09/30/2014.


On 2/26/2016 8:15 AM, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
How do people here feel about approaching the Thunderbird people to bring
them into the LibreOffice project a bit more?  Perhaps they could become
the official default email client?

As most of you know - many organisations, particularly OpenSource ones,
have departments/sections/sub-groups that focus on supporting external
projects that are used within their own project.  For example Ubuntu,
Redhat, openSuSE, Mageia, Fedora (and so on) each have people able to help
their users deal with most issues to do with Thunderbird, LibreOffice and
many other apps.  Typically such people can handle quite a lot of issues
but sometimes seek help from 'upstream' (such as to here if it's a
LibreOffice issue) or/and invite the user to take their issue upstream
themselves. Many of such people stay within one OS and help with many apps
within that OS but some support the same app in many different OSes.  There
are even generic forums, such as "LinuxQuestions.org" that handle a lot of
different OSes.

This mailing list has helped quite a few people with "off topic" issues,
such as helping with other apps or choosing a good "gateway" distro (such
as Mint, Ubuntu etc) for people who want to break free of Windows or even
helping with quite detailed "off topic" issues in very geeky Gnu OSes
(such as Slackware).  Also there's a good chance that some people from
Thunderbird might start offering weeu's support through our support
systems, such as this mailing list - if we were welcoming and supportive.

How would people here feel about this mailing list offering support to
Thunderbird users, particularly ones who use LibreOffice as their Office
Suite?

Another option might be for "The Document Foundation" to fully take on the
whole of the Thunderbird project, and bring in all of their infrastructure
and maybe kinda merge parts together where it's easy enough to do so.

Personally i prefer this sort of approach  The Mozilla Foundation chose to
split TB away from their web-browser (a good linuxy thing to do) so they
could be more independent and therefore be used by people who use a wide
range of other web-browsers - also helping those few Firefox users who were
using something else to benefit more from a more streamlined Firefox.  A
few years ago Mozilla decided to drop almost all it's support for TBeaving
it all to just volunteers.  The TB volunteers have done a fantastic job but
it would be great to give them a new home so they can "spread their wings"
a lot more.

To me it seems that either way, or something similar would greatly benefit
both (or even all 3!) separate projects.

It at long last would solve the main perceived 'blocker' that many people
seem to struggle with when trying to move away from MS Office = that LO
doesn't have a drop-in replacement for Outlook.

Although Outlook includes calendar functionality (and a lot more) it seems
that the most frequent problem that people ask about is just about emails.
On this mailing list it's even been suggested the TDF create a new email
client, but i think most of us already use TB anyway and it's probably
better to just use something that has a good, well-proven track-record
rather than try to cobble something together from scratch.

Some of us inevitably try to point out that there are many other choices of
email client to suit particular niche-markets - such as Claws (for a much
smaller foot-print and thus faster on lower-spec machines) or Evolution
(for a totally complete "drop in replacement" for Outlook in terms of
look (but has limited support and is not cross-platform, and can't
even cope outside the Gnome DE so it limits which versions of Gnu it
can be used on)) and some really fancy ones with more project-management
functionality.

Such alternatives would still be available and supported but by having TB
as our default it would dissolve one more perceived 'blocker' . People
would no longer be forced into doing a tonne more research into which email
client to choose, and TB would be the perfect one for the vast majority of
them.

Microsoft and Apple seem to be successful largely because they remove
people's options and give them "Freedom FROM choice".  The tech industry
seems to value that above almost anything else.  As soon as there are
choices they start grumbling about "fragmentation", and that it's difficult
to choose "which is best" because different use-cases may have different
requirements and therefore may need  make slightly different choices.  In
every other industry monopolies are seen as bad - choice and diversity are
applauded as being "good competition" allowing "market forces" to help

OT - Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Tanstaafl]

On 2/27/2016 7:06 AM, Andrea Venturoli  wrote:
> Reliability aside (I really don't trust OL and I've got lot of backing 
> experience to support that), I've yet to find a feature in OL that TB is 
> missing (apart integration with Exchange).

Actually, Outlook was designed first and foremost as an Exchange Client.

In that environment, it has much less issues - but it still is prone to
weirdness.

But as a standalone client is where it falls down.

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OT - Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Tanstaafl]

On 2/26/2016 8:49 PM, toki  wrote:
> From my POV, for TDF to write a new email client would be a waste of
> effort.

+1

> A couple of issues with TDF adoption of Thunderbird are:
> 
> * What will TDF policy on breaking extensions be?
> I have no idea if it was TB, or the extensions that were upgraded on
> Monday, but the three extensions I rely on the most are now completely
> broken.

It happens... Addon devs have plenty of advance warning when something
changes that will break something, but it is on them to be proactive.

Apparently the devs for your critical Addons aren't. Is that TB's fault?

> Firefox has a habit of breaking extensions at every upgrade.

Well, that is a major exaggeration, if not FUD, at present. It hasn't
really been a problem for a long time, although it was a big problem for
a while after they switched to the fast release schedule. But now that
they started down this road of requiring all Addons to be signed by
them, with no way, after version 45, to disable this stupidity - well
this is another problem. I'll probably be forced to start running and
unbranded version (not 'Firefox') that will still have the pref to
disable it. The ESR will also keep the pref, but I don't want the ESR.

> (I'm ignoring the issue that most of the useful Firefox extensions
> will be abandoned by the developer, because the road map eliminates
> the API that utilized to provide the functionality that they offer).

Maybe, maybe not. There is some concern with the deprecation of
XPCOM/XUL in favor of WebExtensions, yes, but they have committed to
providing most capabilities through the new API:

https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2015/08/21/the-future-of-developing-firefox-add-ons/

Main point to take away - don't shoot the messenger until you know for
certain they deserve to be shot.

> For a corporate environment, breaking extensions when the software
> updates is an absolute no-no. Especially when the extensions are
> mission-critical.

1. Such environments should be using the ESR version, which virtually
eliminates such breakage, and

2. Such environments should be managing updates (ie, testing to make
sure mission critical Addons aren't broken by an update).

If you are *not* doing both, that is on *you*, not Mozilla.

> For the consumer environment, breaking extensions is highly undesirable,
> and extremely annoying behaviour;

So don't use Addons that are prone to breakage.

> * What is the most appropriate long term goal for Thunderbird:
> -» To be a quasi-Outlook clone (^2);

No, to be *better*. There are some UI features in Outlook I rather like,
and I have made some feature requests for Thunderbird to provide
similar, but better, features - 3 of these are:

Mail/message listing/thread pane needs more organization in 3 vertical
pane view (like Outlook, Lotus Notes et al.)
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=213945

Allow customization of choices in View > Folders (Folder Views)
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1159713

Allow 'Pinning' (and re-ordering) one or more 'Folder Views' to the top
of the Folder Pane
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1163555

> -» To be a quasi-Pidgeon clone *^3);

The chat client? I kind of like the idea of chat integration, but I'd
muvh prefer that TB fix the major issues first (UI rewrite to JS,
Address Book rewrite to eliminate Mork DB, issues with replies/forwards
with inline attachments, IMAP performance improvements, etc

> ^2: I don't use Outlook, so I have no idea what features Outlook
> currently offers --- other than reliable retrieving email under all
> conditions --- that Thunderbird does not currently support;

Like I said earlier, my experience, and that of many dozens of others
over many years, is the exact opposite, but that could be due to our use
of IMAP vs your use (misuse if you are using 'leave messages on server'
mis-feature) of ancient POP.

Charles

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Andrea Venturoli]

On 02/27/16 02:49, toki wrote:


^2: I don't use Outlook, so I have no idea what features Outlook
currently offers --- other than reliable retrieving email under all
conditions --- that Thunderbird does not currently support;


Reliability aside (I really don't trust OL and I've got lot of backing 
experience to support that), I've yet to find a feature in OL that TB is 
missing (apart integration with Exchange).


Talk to any OL fan: ask why they think OL it is better and they'll 
always say "it's better" without being able to provide even the most 
weak explanation. This is IMO a good indication that it's not.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[toki]

On 26/02/2016 23:30, Tim Lloyd wrote:

>  * 2 sets of developers - that should be fun :)

It would be no more complicated that the Apache Software Foundation, or,
for that matter, The Mozilla Foundation.

>  * Does TDF actually want to do this?

Pretty much since OOo dropped (^1) the built-in email client, there has
been a small group of people advocating for OOo, and then LibO & AOo to
either include an email client, or provide better integration with
existing email clients.

>  * Is there any value in TDF writing its own mail client?

From my POV, for TDF to write a new email client would be a waste of
effort. OTOH, adopting an orphaned email client might be appropriate.

A couple of issues with TDF adoption of Thunderbird are:

* What will TDF policy on breaking extensions be?
I have no idea if it was TB, or the extensions that were upgraded on
Monday, but the three extensions I rely on the most are now completely
broken.
Firefox has a habit of breaking extensions at every upgrade. (I'm
ignoring the issue that most of the useful Firefox extensions will be
abandoned by the developer, because the road map eliminates the API that
utilized to provide the functionality that they offer).

For a corporate environment, breaking extensions when the software
updates is an absolute no-no. Especially when the extensions are
mission-critical.
For the consumer environment, breaking extensions is highly undesirable,
and extremely annoying behaviour;

* How compatible is the existing Thunderbird/Mozilla Foundation culture,
with the existing LibO/TDF culture?

One of the initial, and to an extent, ongoing issues with Apache
OpenOffice, is that the Apache Foundation culture was not compatible
with the OOo culture. It isn't just that the focus of other Apache
software is for the enterprise/big data market, and not the consumer
market.

* What does "better integration between LibO & TB" mean?
I'm pretty sure that what I understand by that phrase is not what the
people who use it understand it to mean.

* What is the most appropriate long term goal for Thunderbird:
-» To be a quasi-Outlook clone (^2);
-» To be a quasi-Pidgeon clone *^3);
-» To be both a quasi-Outlook clone and a quasi-Pidgeon clone;
-» To remain a basic news-reader/email client;

Can TDF provide the required support for attaining that goal?

* What is the road map for Thunderbird?
Does it stay a newsreader/email only client, or does include Chat, IRC,
IM, VOIP, VP, etc, to become an all-purpose communication agent?

I've seen proposed roadmaps for both propositions:
-» Email/news reader only;
-» All purpose communication agent;

^1: In as much as it was more than 15 years ago, that the email client
was allegedly removed from OOo, I am assuming that no remnants of it
remain.

^2: I don't use Outlook, so I have no idea what features Outlook
currently offers --- other than reliable retrieving email under all
conditions --- that Thunderbird does not currently support;

^3: I'm looking at the IM, VP, VOIP, Fax, etc extensions for TB that are
currently available. I have no idea if any of them either currently, or
formerly functioned as advertised.

jonathon

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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Tim Lloyd]

Hi Tom,

from a user perspective, a great idea. Hpwever:

 * 2 sets of developers - that should be fun :)
 * Does TDF actually want to do this? Cue howls from sections of the
   open source community if the answer is yes
 * Is there any value in TDF writing its own mail client?

It is good to get this kind of discussion going. I know this isn't the 
way we do it in the open source world but I think there should be more 
talk of how FLOSS works in an enterprise environment and this is a 
valuable step forward


Cheers

On 27/02/16 00:15, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
How do people here feel about approaching the Thunderbird people to bring
them into the LibreOffice project a bit more?  Perhaps they could become
the official default email client?

As most of you know - many organisations, particularly OpenSource ones,
have departments/sections/sub-groups that focus on supporting external
projects that are used within their own project.  For example Ubuntu,
Redhat, openSuSE, Mageia, Fedora (and so on) each have people able to help
their users deal with most issues to do with Thunderbird, LibreOffice and
many other apps.  Typically such people can handle quite a lot of issues
but sometimes seek help from 'upstream' (such as to here if it's a
LibreOffice issue) or/and invite the user to take their issue upstream
themselves. Many of such people stay within one OS and help with many apps
within that OS but some support the same app in many different OSes.  There
are even generic forums, such as "LinuxQuestions.org" that handle a lot of
different OSes.

This mailing list has helped quite a few people with "off topic" issues,
such as helping with other apps or choosing a good "gateway" distro (such
as Mint, Ubuntu etc) for people who want to break free of Windows or even
helping with quite detailed "off topic" issues in very geeky Gnu OSes
(such as Slackware).  Also there's a good chance that some people from
Thunderbird might start offering weeu's support through our support
systems, such as this mailing list - if we were welcoming and supportive.

How would people here feel about this mailing list offering support to
Thunderbird users, particularly ones who use LibreOffice as their Office
Suite?

Another option might be for "The Document Foundation" to fully take on the
whole of the Thunderbird project, and bring in all of their infrastructure
and maybe kinda merge parts together where it's easy enough to do so.

Personally i prefer this sort of approach  The Mozilla Foundation chose to
split TB away from their web-browser (a good linuxy thing to do) so they
could be more independent and therefore be used by people who use a wide
range of other web-browsers - also helping those few Firefox users who were
using something else to benefit more from a more streamlined Firefox.  A
few years ago Mozilla decided to drop almost all it's support for TBeaving
it all to just volunteers.  The TB volunteers have done a fantastic job but
it would be great to give them a new home so they can "spread their wings"
a lot more.

To me it seems that either way, or something similar would greatly benefit
both (or even all 3!) separate projects.

It at long last would solve the main perceived 'blocker' that many people
seem to struggle with when trying to move away from MS Office = that LO
doesn't have a drop-in replacement for Outlook.

Although Outlook includes calendar functionality (and a lot more) it seems
that the most frequent problem that people ask about is just about emails.
On this mailing list it's even been suggested the TDF create a new email
client, but i think most of us already use TB anyway and it's probably
better to just use something that has a good, well-proven track-record
rather than try to cobble something together from scratch.

Some of us inevitably try to point out that there are many other choices of
email client to suit particular niche-markets - such as Claws (for a much
smaller foot-print and thus faster on lower-spec machines) or Evolution
(for a totally complete "drop in replacement" for Outlook in terms of
look (but has limited support and is not cross-platform, and can't
even cope outside the Gnome DE so it limits which versions of Gnu it
can be used on)) and some really fancy ones with more project-management
functionality.

Such alternatives would still be available and supported but by having TB
as our default it would dissolve one more perceived 'blocker' . People
would no longer be forced into doing a tonne more research into which email
client to choose, and TB would be the perfect one for the vast majority of
them.

Microsoft and Apple seem to be successful largely because they remove
people's options and give them "Freedom FROM choice".  The tech industry
seems to value that above almost anything else.  As soon as there are
choices they start grumbling about "fragmentation", and that it's difficult
to choose "which is best" because different use-cases may have different
requirements and 

Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Dave Liesse]

I'd be fully supportive of bringing Thunderbird into the LO family. I've 
been a user of both for years and am very concerned about Thunderbird's 
future.  The only Microsoft software I'm willing to actually spend money 
on is Windows, and I wouldn't even do that if there were a Linux version 
of my business software (equivalents aren't acceptable in this case; 
office suite files might be mostly interchangeable, but that's not true 
in other genres and I have to support my clients).


Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to contribute on the technical side 
unless you need a data modeler, logical process modeler, or QA leader.  
My programming skills are way out of date (COBOL and FORTRAN, anyone?), 
but I'm not so long out of the field that my other skills are even 
starting to rust (I do use them informally in other areas).  So far I've 
raised more Thunderbird questions than I'd be able to help with!


Dave Liesse


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[libreoffice-ml . mbourne]

Tom Davies wrote:

As most of you know - many organisations, particularly OpenSource ones,
have departments/sections/sub-groups that focus on supporting external
projects that are used within their own project.  For example Ubuntu,
Redhat, openSuSE, Mageia, Fedora (and so on) each have people able to help
their users deal with most issues to do with Thunderbird, LibreOffice and
many other apps.  Typically such people can handle quite a lot of issues
but sometimes seek help from 'upstream' (such as to here if it's a
LibreOffice issue) or/and invite the user to take their issue upstream
themselves. Many of such people stay within one OS and help with many apps
within that OS but some support the same app in many different OSes.  There
are even generic forums, such as "LinuxQuestions.org" that handle a lot of
different OSes.

This mailing list has helped quite a few people with "off topic" issues,
such as helping with other apps or choosing a good "gateway" distro (such
as Mint, Ubuntu etc) for people who want to break free of Windows or even
helping with quite detailed "off topic" issues in very geeky Gnu OSes
(such as Slackware).  Also there's a good chance that some people from
Thunderbird might start offering weeu's support through our support
systems, such as this mailing list - if we were welcoming and supportive.


While it's helpful to assist with problems which are (or turn out to be) 
off-topic for LibreOffice, I don't think it's something to encourage. 
The focus for this mailing list is supporting use of LibreOffice. The 
others you mention above are specifically aimed at supporting a range of 
applications.



How would people here feel about this mailing list offering support to
Thunderbird users, particularly ones who use LibreOffice as their Office
Suite?


Do Thunderbird not have their own support systems? Surely anyone looking 
for support with Thunderbird would be better off asking for help there.


I haven't closely followed how much they've been separated from Mozilla, 
but if Thunderbird have lost their own infrastructure partnering with 
LibreOffice / TDF could be a good way forward. I'd have thought would 
work better as a separate project within the organisation though, with 
separate mailing lists for LibreOffice and Thunderbird (like how there 
are separate mailing lists for the various Mozilla applications, and the 
various Apache projects each have their own mailing list). That way 
those who can only provide support for one wouldn't have to wade through 
all the posts relating to the other.



Although Outlook includes calendar functionality (and a lot more) it seems
that the most frequent problem that people ask about is just about emails.


For what it's worth, the Lightning extension for Thunderbird gives it 
calendar functionality as well. I use it with SeaMonkey (another Mozilla 
project combining Firefox and Thunderbird, derived from Mozilla Suite), 
though just for myself - not in a corporate environment or for inviting 
others to events, so no idea how well it works for those use cases.



Such alternatives would still be available and supported but by having TB
as our default it would dissolve one more perceived 'blocker' . People
would no longer be forced into doing a tonne more research into which email
client to choose, and TB would be the perfect one for the vast majority of
them.


I'm not sure what you mean by Thunderbird being LibreOffice's "default" 
mail client, but I don't think it should be bundled with the LibreOffice 
installer - it would increase the download size for everyone, including 
those who don't want it or have already installed it separately. Since I 
already use SeaMonkey for mail, I have no need to download Thunderbird 
alongside LibreOffice.


Suggesting Thunderbird on LibreOffice's web site might be useful though, 
for those who are looking for something "including" a mail client. Or 
hosting their downloads there if they're in need of that.



Giving people a default and then allowing them to easily replace it as been
hugely successful for "gateway distros" and i think it would probably be
great for us too.  How do other people here feel?


Linux distros by definition include a large range of applications. Are 
you going to propose bundling a web browser, image editor, media player, 
etc. with LibreOffice as well?


--
Mark.


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Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[nasrin khaksar]

hi.
i am realy advocate of opensource project and become happy to know
about them and help people.
its a good idea, but i am not expert in using thunderbird and dont
have information about it.
thank you tom.

On 2/26/16, Tanstaafl  wrote:
> No, no, no. There is no reason.
>
> Or, at the very least, it is wy too early to even consider
> *thinking about* a name change for Thunderbird.
>
> Personally, I wouldn't necessarily be against it, but there would have
> to be a decent successful history of Thunderbird development under TDF
> umbrella before this should be considered.
>
> On 2/26/2016 10:32 AM, Daniel Espinosa  wrote:
>> May should be renamed to LibreOffice Mail.
>>
>> El feb. 26, 2016 9:04 AM, "Tanstaafl" > > escribió:
>>
>> I think bringing Thunderbird fully under the umbrella of The Document
>> Foundation, and as a sister project of LibreOffice, is a fantastic
>> idea,
>> it just makes the most sense to me as a formal and permanent home for
>> Thunderbird going forward.
>>
>> The fact is, in spite of the fact that Thunderbird development has
>> actually improved dramatically ever since Mozilla 'killed it' thanks
>> *only* to the fantastic volunteers who stepped up, its long term
>> future
>> is in jeopardy right now.
>>
>> I would dearly love to see Thunderbird adopted, providing it the legal
>> infrastructure and resources it will need if it is to remain viable.
>>
>> As both a long time Thunderbird user, since well before it reached
>> version 1.0, and supporting our 60+ Thunderbird users at our office
>> this
>> entire time, I would be happy to provide assistance on this list. Not
>> to
>> brag, but there are very few Thunderbird issues that I couldn't either
>> solve, or at least point you to the bug # covering the bug. And since
>> Lightning is now a bundled Addon, people have to explicitly 'opt out'
>> of
>> Calendar functionality, so the fact that TB has a calendar is now much
>> more 'discoverable' for new users.
>>
>> Anyway, I hope something comes of this...
>>
>> Charles
>>
>> On 2/26/2016 8:15 AM, Tom Davies > > wrote:
>> > Hi :)
>> > How do people here feel about approaching the Thunderbird people
>> to bring
>> > them into the LibreOffice project a bit more?  Perhaps they could
>> become
>> > the official default email client?
>> >
>> > As most of you know - many organisations, particularly OpenSource
>> ones,
>> > have departments/sections/sub-groups that focus on supporting
>> external
>> > projects that are used within their own project.  For example
>> Ubuntu,
>> > Redhat, openSuSE, Mageia, Fedora (and so on) each have people able
>> to help
>> > their users deal with most issues to do with Thunderbird,
>> LibreOffice and
>> > many other apps.  Typically such people can handle quite a lot of
>> issues
>> > but sometimes seek help from 'upstream' (such as to here if it's a
>> > LibreOffice issue) or/and invite the user to take their issue
>> upstream
>> > themselves. Many of such people stay within one OS and help with
>> many apps
>> > within that OS but some support the same app in many different
>> OSes.  There
>> > are even generic forums, such as "LinuxQuestions.org" that handle
>> a lot of
>> > different OSes.
>> >
>> > This mailing list has helped quite a few people with "off topic"
>> issues,
>> > such as helping with other apps or choosing a good "gateway"
>> distro (such
>> > as Mint, Ubuntu etc) for people who want to break free of Windows
>> or even
>> > helping with quite detailed "off topic" issues in very geeky
>> Gnu OSes
>> > (such as Slackware).  Also there's a good chance that some people
>> from
>> > Thunderbird might start offering weeu's support through our support
>> > systems, such as this mailing list - if we were welcoming and
>> supportive.
>> >
>> > How would people here feel about this mailing list offering support
>> to
>> > Thunderbird users, particularly ones who use LibreOffice as their
>> Office
>> > Suite?
>> >
>> > Another option might be for "The Document Foundation" to fully
>> take on the
>> > whole of the Thunderbird project, and bring in all of their
>> infrastructure
>> > and maybe kinda merge parts together where it's easy enough to do
>> so.
>> >
>> > Personally i prefer this sort of approach  The Mozilla Foundation
>> chose to
>> > split TB away from their web-browser (a good linuxy thing to do)
>> so they
>> > could be more independent and therefore be used by people who use
>> a wide
>> > range of other web-browsers - also helping those few Firefox users
>>

Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Tanstaafl]

No, no, no. There is no reason.

Or, at the very least, it is wy too early to even consider
*thinking about* a name change for Thunderbird.

Personally, I wouldn't necessarily be against it, but there would have
to be a decent successful history of Thunderbird development under TDF
umbrella before this should be considered.

On 2/26/2016 10:32 AM, Daniel Espinosa  wrote:
> May should be renamed to LibreOffice Mail.
> 
> El feb. 26, 2016 9:04 AM, "Tanstaafl"  > escribió:
> 
> I think bringing Thunderbird fully under the umbrella of The Document
> Foundation, and as a sister project of LibreOffice, is a fantastic idea,
> it just makes the most sense to me as a formal and permanent home for
> Thunderbird going forward.
> 
> The fact is, in spite of the fact that Thunderbird development has
> actually improved dramatically ever since Mozilla 'killed it' thanks
> *only* to the fantastic volunteers who stepped up, its long term future
> is in jeopardy right now.
> 
> I would dearly love to see Thunderbird adopted, providing it the legal
> infrastructure and resources it will need if it is to remain viable.
> 
> As both a long time Thunderbird user, since well before it reached
> version 1.0, and supporting our 60+ Thunderbird users at our office this
> entire time, I would be happy to provide assistance on this list. Not to
> brag, but there are very few Thunderbird issues that I couldn't either
> solve, or at least point you to the bug # covering the bug. And since
> Lightning is now a bundled Addon, people have to explicitly 'opt out' of
> Calendar functionality, so the fact that TB has a calendar is now much
> more 'discoverable' for new users.
> 
> Anyway, I hope something comes of this...
> 
> Charles
> 
> On 2/26/2016 8:15 AM, Tom Davies  > wrote:
> > Hi :)
> > How do people here feel about approaching the Thunderbird people
> to bring
> > them into the LibreOffice project a bit more?  Perhaps they could
> become
> > the official default email client?
> >
> > As most of you know - many organisations, particularly OpenSource
> ones,
> > have departments/sections/sub-groups that focus on supporting external
> > projects that are used within their own project.  For example Ubuntu,
> > Redhat, openSuSE, Mageia, Fedora (and so on) each have people able
> to help
> > their users deal with most issues to do with Thunderbird,
> LibreOffice and
> > many other apps.  Typically such people can handle quite a lot of
> issues
> > but sometimes seek help from 'upstream' (such as to here if it's a
> > LibreOffice issue) or/and invite the user to take their issue upstream
> > themselves. Many of such people stay within one OS and help with
> many apps
> > within that OS but some support the same app in many different
> OSes.  There
> > are even generic forums, such as "LinuxQuestions.org" that handle
> a lot of
> > different OSes.
> >
> > This mailing list has helped quite a few people with "off topic"
> issues,
> > such as helping with other apps or choosing a good "gateway"
> distro (such
> > as Mint, Ubuntu etc) for people who want to break free of Windows
> or even
> > helping with quite detailed "off topic" issues in very geeky
> Gnu OSes
> > (such as Slackware).  Also there's a good chance that some people from
> > Thunderbird might start offering weeu's support through our support
> > systems, such as this mailing list - if we were welcoming and
> supportive.
> >
> > How would people here feel about this mailing list offering support to
> > Thunderbird users, particularly ones who use LibreOffice as their
> Office
> > Suite?
> >
> > Another option might be for "The Document Foundation" to fully
> take on the
> > whole of the Thunderbird project, and bring in all of their
> infrastructure
> > and maybe kinda merge parts together where it's easy enough to do so.
> >
> > Personally i prefer this sort of approach  The Mozilla Foundation
> chose to
> > split TB away from their web-browser (a good linuxy thing to do)
> so they
> > could be more independent and therefore be used by people who use
> a wide
> > range of other web-browsers - also helping those few Firefox users
> who were
> > using something else to benefit more from a more streamlined
> Firefox.  A
> > few years ago Mozilla decided to drop almost all it's support for
> TBeaving
> > it all to just volunteers.  The TB volunteers have done a
> fantastic job but
> > it would be great to give them a new home so they can "spread
> their wings"
> > a lot more.
> >
> 

Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Daniel Espinosa]

May should be renamed to LibreOffice Mail.
El feb. 26, 2016 9:04 AM, "Tanstaafl"  escribió:

> I think bringing Thunderbird fully under the umbrella of The Document
> Foundation, and as a sister project of LibreOffice, is a fantastic idea,
> it just makes the most sense to me as a formal and permanent home for
> Thunderbird going forward.
>
> The fact is, in spite of the fact that Thunderbird development has
> actually improved dramatically ever since Mozilla 'killed it' thanks
> *only* to the fantastic volunteers who stepped up, its long term future
> is in jeopardy right now.
>
> I would dearly love to see Thunderbird adopted, providing it the legal
> infrastructure and resources it will need if it is to remain viable.
>
> As both a long time Thunderbird user, since well before it reached
> version 1.0, and supporting our 60+ Thunderbird users at our office this
> entire time, I would be happy to provide assistance on this list. Not to
> brag, but there are very few Thunderbird issues that I couldn't either
> solve, or at least point you to the bug # covering the bug. And since
> Lightning is now a bundled Addon, people have to explicitly 'opt out' of
> Calendar functionality, so the fact that TB has a calendar is now much
> more 'discoverable' for new users.
>
> Anyway, I hope something comes of this...
>
> Charles
>
> On 2/26/2016 8:15 AM, Tom Davies  wrote:
> > Hi :)
> > How do people here feel about approaching the Thunderbird people to bring
> > them into the LibreOffice project a bit more?  Perhaps they could become
> > the official default email client?
> >
> > As most of you know - many organisations, particularly OpenSource ones,
> > have departments/sections/sub-groups that focus on supporting external
> > projects that are used within their own project.  For example Ubuntu,
> > Redhat, openSuSE, Mageia, Fedora (and so on) each have people able to
> help
> > their users deal with most issues to do with Thunderbird, LibreOffice and
> > many other apps.  Typically such people can handle quite a lot of issues
> > but sometimes seek help from 'upstream' (such as to here if it's a
> > LibreOffice issue) or/and invite the user to take their issue upstream
> > themselves. Many of such people stay within one OS and help with many
> apps
> > within that OS but some support the same app in many different OSes.
> There
> > are even generic forums, such as "LinuxQuestions.org" that handle a lot
> of
> > different OSes.
> >
> > This mailing list has helped quite a few people with "off topic" issues,
> > such as helping with other apps or choosing a good "gateway" distro (such
> > as Mint, Ubuntu etc) for people who want to break free of Windows or even
> > helping with quite detailed "off topic" issues in very geeky Gnu
> OSes
> > (such as Slackware).  Also there's a good chance that some people from
> > Thunderbird might start offering weeu's support through our support
> > systems, such as this mailing list - if we were welcoming and supportive.
> >
> > How would people here feel about this mailing list offering support to
> > Thunderbird users, particularly ones who use LibreOffice as their Office
> > Suite?
> >
> > Another option might be for "The Document Foundation" to fully take on
> the
> > whole of the Thunderbird project, and bring in all of their
> infrastructure
> > and maybe kinda merge parts together where it's easy enough to do so.
> >
> > Personally i prefer this sort of approach  The Mozilla Foundation chose
> to
> > split TB away from their web-browser (a good linuxy thing to do) so they
> > could be more independent and therefore be used by people who use a wide
> > range of other web-browsers - also helping those few Firefox users who
> were
> > using something else to benefit more from a more streamlined Firefox.  A
> > few years ago Mozilla decided to drop almost all it's support for
> TBeaving
> > it all to just volunteers.  The TB volunteers have done a fantastic job
> but
> > it would be great to give them a new home so they can "spread their
> wings"
> > a lot more.
> >
> > To me it seems that either way, or something similar would greatly
> benefit
> > both (or even all 3!) separate projects.
> >
> > It at long last would solve the main perceived 'blocker' that many people
> > seem to struggle with when trying to move away from MS Office = that LO
> > doesn't have a drop-in replacement for Outlook.
> >
> > Although Outlook includes calendar functionality (and a lot more) it
> seems
> > that the most frequent problem that people ask about is just about
> emails.
> > On this mailing list it's even been suggested the TDF create a new email
> > client, but i think most of us already use TB anyway and it's probably
> > better to just use something that has a good, well-proven track-record
> > rather than try to cobble something together from scratch.
> >
> > Some of us inevitably try to point out that there are many other choices
> of
> > 

Re: [libreoffice-users] Thunderbird potential as the official/default email-client for LO? Re: [board-discuss] BoD decision from 2015-10-05

[Tanstaafl]

I think bringing Thunderbird fully under the umbrella of The Document
Foundation, and as a sister project of LibreOffice, is a fantastic idea,
it just makes the most sense to me as a formal and permanent home for
Thunderbird going forward.

The fact is, in spite of the fact that Thunderbird development has
actually improved dramatically ever since Mozilla 'killed it' thanks
*only* to the fantastic volunteers who stepped up, its long term future
is in jeopardy right now.

I would dearly love to see Thunderbird adopted, providing it the legal
infrastructure and resources it will need if it is to remain viable.

As both a long time Thunderbird user, since well before it reached
version 1.0, and supporting our 60+ Thunderbird users at our office this
entire time, I would be happy to provide assistance on this list. Not to
brag, but there are very few Thunderbird issues that I couldn't either
solve, or at least point you to the bug # covering the bug. And since
Lightning is now a bundled Addon, people have to explicitly 'opt out' of
Calendar functionality, so the fact that TB has a calendar is now much
more 'discoverable' for new users.

Anyway, I hope something comes of this...

Charles

On 2/26/2016 8:15 AM, Tom Davies  wrote:
> Hi :)
> How do people here feel about approaching the Thunderbird people to bring
> them into the LibreOffice project a bit more?  Perhaps they could become
> the official default email client?
> 
> As most of you know - many organisations, particularly OpenSource ones,
> have departments/sections/sub-groups that focus on supporting external
> projects that are used within their own project.  For example Ubuntu,
> Redhat, openSuSE, Mageia, Fedora (and so on) each have people able to help
> their users deal with most issues to do with Thunderbird, LibreOffice and
> many other apps.  Typically such people can handle quite a lot of issues
> but sometimes seek help from 'upstream' (such as to here if it's a
> LibreOffice issue) or/and invite the user to take their issue upstream
> themselves. Many of such people stay within one OS and help with many apps
> within that OS but some support the same app in many different OSes.  There
> are even generic forums, such as "LinuxQuestions.org" that handle a lot of
> different OSes.
> 
> This mailing list has helped quite a few people with "off topic" issues,
> such as helping with other apps or choosing a good "gateway" distro (such
> as Mint, Ubuntu etc) for people who want to break free of Windows or even
> helping with quite detailed "off topic" issues in very geeky Gnu OSes
> (such as Slackware).  Also there's a good chance that some people from
> Thunderbird might start offering weeu's support through our support
> systems, such as this mailing list - if we were welcoming and supportive.
> 
> How would people here feel about this mailing list offering support to
> Thunderbird users, particularly ones who use LibreOffice as their Office
> Suite?
> 
> Another option might be for "The Document Foundation" to fully take on the
> whole of the Thunderbird project, and bring in all of their infrastructure
> and maybe kinda merge parts together where it's easy enough to do so.
> 
> Personally i prefer this sort of approach  The Mozilla Foundation chose to
> split TB away from their web-browser (a good linuxy thing to do) so they
> could be more independent and therefore be used by people who use a wide
> range of other web-browsers - also helping those few Firefox users who were
> using something else to benefit more from a more streamlined Firefox.  A
> few years ago Mozilla decided to drop almost all it's support for TBeaving
> it all to just volunteers.  The TB volunteers have done a fantastic job but
> it would be great to give them a new home so they can "spread their wings"
> a lot more.
> 
> To me it seems that either way, or something similar would greatly benefit
> both (or even all 3!) separate projects.
> 
> It at long last would solve the main perceived 'blocker' that many people
> seem to struggle with when trying to move away from MS Office = that LO
> doesn't have a drop-in replacement for Outlook.
> 
> Although Outlook includes calendar functionality (and a lot more) it seems
> that the most frequent problem that people ask about is just about emails.
> On this mailing list it's even been suggested the TDF create a new email
> client, but i think most of us already use TB anyway and it's probably
> better to just use something that has a good, well-proven track-record
> rather than try to cobble something together from scratch.
> 
> Some of us inevitably try to point out that there are many other choices of
> email client to suit particular niche-markets - such as Claws (for a much
> smaller foot-print and thus faster on lower-spec machines) or Evolution
> (for a totally complete "drop in replacement" for Outlook in terms of
> look (but has limited support and is not cross-platform, and can't
> even cope outside