Re: First Day Disgust!
On 9/10/07, Martijn Dashorst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I haven't used an Eclipse plugin for maven since the command line version works really well and my previous experiences with mevenide were less than ok (talking about 2 years ago!) Martijn there seem to be a new maven-eclipse-integration plugin in town: http://code.google.com/p/q4e/ it's supposed to be part of the eclipse foundation. i haven't tried it out yet, but as i didn't really like m2eclipse, i will definitely give it a shot. gerolf -- Buy Wicket in Action: http://manning.com/dashorst Apache Wicket 1.3.0-beta3 is released Get it now: http://www.apache.org/dyn/closer.cgi/wicket/1.3.0-beta3/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
maven maven maven, that is if all developers all over the world knows what maven is. Ant was what i first knew until i started hearing maven and infact it was mainly because of wicket that i learnt maven early before a netbeans module came out. so really not all developers will have some patience to first google maven fundamentals which is why i believe in: 1. Step 1, Install Your IDE (Everybody knows that) 2. Step 2, Install This Plugin (IDEs make that simple) 3. Step 3, Create a new Wicket Project and then BOOM it works without even a line of code yet (as much as i hated SWT, i learnt it this way) And lets remember the success of the ASP.NET family, you install Visual Studio and then BOOM your sample project is ready. Then you see this 2 days old developer feeling like he can code every website. that feeling is the success of every developer tool and dont let us forget that The Java community has a plethora of tools but as newer developers come on board, they need a clean entrance and maven is not what you learn at the early stage of your developer career (even though its simple to use, infact simpler than i thought cuz i hated Ant) My take, While off course maven is still the used tool, but the community should bring the useful IDE plugins to the forefront for starters Thanks On 9/11/07, Gerolf Seitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/10/07, Martijn Dashorst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I haven't used an Eclipse plugin for maven since the command line version works really well and my previous experiences with mevenide were less than ok (talking about 2 years ago!) Martijn there seem to be a new maven-eclipse-integration plugin in town: http://code.google.com/p/q4e/ it's supposed to be part of the eclipse foundation. i haven't tried it out yet, but as i didn't really like m2eclipse, i will definitely give it a shot. gerolf -- Buy Wicket in Action: http://manning.com/dashorst Apache Wicket 1.3.0-beta3 is released Get it now: http://www.apache.org/dyn/closer.cgi/wicket/1.3.0-beta3/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
no one is asking anyone here to become a maven guru. All we are asking is that they use it to generate a quickstart project, which simply involves following the directions. -igor On 9/11/07, Ayodeji Aladejebi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: maven maven maven, that is if all developers all over the world knows what maven is. Ant was what i first knew until i started hearing maven and infact it was mainly because of wicket that i learnt maven early before a netbeans module came out. so really not all developers will have some patience to first google maven fundamentals which is why i believe in: 1. Step 1, Install Your IDE (Everybody knows that) 2. Step 2, Install This Plugin (IDEs make that simple) 3. Step 3, Create a new Wicket Project and then BOOM it works without even a line of code yet (as much as i hated SWT, i learnt it this way) And lets remember the success of the ASP.NET family, you install Visual Studio and then BOOM your sample project is ready. Then you see this 2 days old developer feeling like he can code every website. that feeling is the success of every developer tool and dont let us forget that The Java community has a plethora of tools but as newer developers come on board, they need a clean entrance and maven is not what you learn at the early stage of your developer career (even though its simple to use, infact simpler than i thought cuz i hated Ant) My take, While off course maven is still the used tool, but the community should bring the useful IDE plugins to the forefront for starters Thanks On 9/11/07, Gerolf Seitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/10/07, Martijn Dashorst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I haven't used an Eclipse plugin for maven since the command line version works really well and my previous experiences with mevenide were less than ok (talking about 2 years ago!) Martijn there seem to be a new maven-eclipse-integration plugin in town: http://code.google.com/p/q4e/ it's supposed to be part of the eclipse foundation. i haven't tried it out yet, but as i didn't really like m2eclipse, i will definitely give it a shot. gerolf -- Buy Wicket in Action: http://manning.com/dashorst Apache Wicket 1.3.0-beta3 is released Get it now: http://www.apache.org/dyn/closer.cgi/wicket/1.3.0-beta3/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
Hi I have been trying to use the quickstart for beta3 with the Maven command as stated on the wicket site and it is not working. Build Error Unable to download file... Org.apache.wicket:wicket-archetype-quickstart:jar:1.3.0-beta3 Etc.. Can anyone please advise. Jim -- Sent with Instant Email from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 07:11:20 To:users@wicket.apache.org Subject: Re: First Day Disgust! no one is asking anyone here to become a maven guru. All we are asking is that they use it to generate a quickstart project, which simply involves following the directions. -igor On 9/11/07, Ayodeji Aladejebi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: maven maven maven, that is if all developers all over the world knows what maven is. Ant was what i first knew until i started hearing maven and infact it was mainly because of wicket that i learnt maven early before a netbeans module came out. so really not all developers will have some patience to first google maven fundamentals which is why i believe in: 1. Step 1, Install Your IDE (Everybody knows that) 2. Step 2, Install This Plugin (IDEs make that simple) 3. Step 3, Create a new Wicket Project and then BOOM it works without even a line of code yet (as much as i hated SWT, i learnt it this way) And lets remember the success of the ASP.NET family, you install Visual Studio and then BOOM your sample project is ready. Then you see this 2 days old developer feeling like he can code every website. that feeling is the success of every developer tool and dont let us forget that The Java community has a plethora of tools but as newer developers come on board, they need a clean entrance and maven is not what you learn at the early stage of your developer career (even though its simple to use, infact simpler than i thought cuz i hated Ant) My take, While off course maven is still the used tool, but the community should bring the useful IDE plugins to the forefront for starters Thanks On 9/11/07, Gerolf Seitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/10/07, Martijn Dashorst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I haven't used an Eclipse plugin for maven since the command line version works really well and my previous experiences with mevenide were less than ok (talking about 2 years ago!) Martijn there seem to be a new maven-eclipse-integration plugin in town: http://code.google.com/p/q4e/ it's supposed to be part of the eclipse foundation. i haven't tried it out yet, but as i didn't really like m2eclipse, i will definitely give it a shot. gerolf -- Buy Wicket in Action: http://manning.com/dashorst Apache Wicket 1.3.0-beta3 is released Get it now: http://www.apache.org/dyn/closer.cgi/wicket/1.3.0-beta3/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
at least i see a lot of maven related issues on the forum, not that maven is not perfect but some starters who dont know it well may think there is some big stuff about any issue they may have when setting it up and setting up sample projects. today I have a plugin build (not fully stable) that generates a wicket sample project without any errors and runs fine, my take again, ppl who complain about maven start up should be directed to stuffs like dat and not being forced to use maven for their first sample project. i have already overcome all those cups and so am not at all bothered about what wicket decides to use, i already see that wicket advantages far outweight its so to say, disadvantages so wherever wicket goes, i follow :) but am just concerned for some ppl yu know On 9/11/07, Martijn Dashorst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/11/07, Ayodeji Aladejebi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: yu see what i mean? :) this guy now cared to ask, someone else will get bored there and leave :) No I don't see what you mean. Martijn -- Buy Wicket in Action: http://manning.com/dashorst Apache Wicket 1.3.0-beta3 is released Get it now: http://www.apache.org/dyn/closer.cgi/wicket/1.3.0-beta3/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
You are absolutely correct: lots of issues with Maven all the time and it would be really beneficial if various Lets Get Started tutorials do not rely on that and rely on Ant only to do everything they need to do. Ideally all the libraries will come with it too, and if download size is too big then ant's get command is here to resque. It is less sexy than transitive dependencies resolution etc. But it is near bulletproof and it is that doctor is ordered for tutorials. Maven is unstable because of widespread practice of using version ranges for dependencies and plugins and it makes build unrepeatable because build depends on server side. There are pro and contra arguments of course but I think that for Tutorials there are no pro-s in Maven. Konstantin Ignatyev PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil, add 2,700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population by 263,000 Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial: Why the Environmental Movement Needs a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools. New York: State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206) - Original Message From: Ayodeji Aladejebi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: users@wicket.apache.org Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 9:27:55 AM Subject: Re: First Day Disgust! at least i see a lot of maven related issues on the forum, not that maven is not perfect but some starters who dont know it well may think there is some big stuff about any issue they may have when setting it up and setting up sample projects. today I have a plugin build (not fully stable) that generates a wicket sample project without any errors and runs fine, my take again, ppl who complain about maven start up should be directed to stuffs like dat and not being forced to use maven for their first sample project. i have already overcome all those cups and so am not at all bothered about what wicket decides to use, i already see that wicket advantages far outweight its so to say, disadvantages so wherever wicket goes, i follow :) but am just concerned for some ppl yu know On 9/11/07, Martijn Dashorst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/11/07, Ayodeji Aladejebi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: yu see what i mean? :) this guy now cared to ask, someone else will get bored there and leave :) No I don't see what you mean. Martijn -- Buy Wicket in Action: http://manning.com/dashorst Apache Wicket 1.3.0-beta3 is released Get it now: http://www.apache.org/dyn/closer.cgi/wicket/1.3.0-beta3/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
On 9/11/07, Konstantin Ignatyev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You are absolutely correct: lots of issues with Maven all the time and it would be really beneficial if various Lets Get Started tutorials do not rely on that and rely on Ant only to do everything they need to do. Ideally all the libraries will come with it too, and if download size is too big then ant's get command is here to resque. It is less sexy than transitive dependencies resolution etc. But it is near bulletproof and it is that doctor is ordered for tutorials. Maven is unstable because of widespread practice of using version ranges for dependencies and plugins and it makes build unrepeatable because build depends on server side. There are pro and contra arguments of course but I think that for Tutorials there are no pro-s in Maven. I think we have enough users by now who support this view. The next big question is, who wants to contribute? Wicket-stuff is a great place to put it in first (we can move adopt it as a core project once we all agree). Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
I will try to cut some time to do that. Konstantin Ignatyev PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil, add 2,700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population by 263,000 Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial: Why the Environmental Movement Needs a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools. New York: State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206) - Original Message From: Eelco Hillenius [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: users@wicket.apache.org Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 10:52:16 AM Subject: Re: First Day Disgust! On 9/11/07, Konstantin Ignatyev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You are absolutely correct: lots of issues with Maven all the time and it would be really beneficial if various Lets Get Started tutorials do not rely on that and rely on Ant only to do everything they need to do. Ideally all the libraries will come with it too, and if download size is too big then ant's get command is here to resque. It is less sexy than transitive dependencies resolution etc. But it is near bulletproof and it is that doctor is ordered for tutorials. Maven is unstable because of widespread practice of using version ranges for dependencies and plugins and it makes build unrepeatable because build depends on server side. There are pro and contra arguments of course but I think that for Tutorials there are no pro-s in Maven. I think we have enough users by now who support this view. The next big question is, who wants to contribute? Wicket-stuff is a great place to put it in first (we can move adopt it as a core project once we all agree). Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
On 9/11/07, Konstantin Ignatyev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I will try to cut some time to do that. Cheers! Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
Maven guru can use Maven to create and maintain such package - it should be just another type of assembly, right? :) Konstantin Ignatyev - Original Message From: jweekend [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: users@wicket.apache.org Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 12:21:53 PM Subject: Re: First Day Disgust! I bumped into Jimmy. It just turns out that his proxy was not set up. Having seen this sort of problem in other corporate situations (firewalls, proxies, locally renewed passwords etc) I guessed what it might be straight away and when he changed the settings (in the right file) it just started to work (as usual with Wicket). He is now back on track, spending time on Wicket (rather than Maven2), and enjoying it again. This is not an atypical story - in fact the person who started this thread because he was so disgusted in the packaging of the examples etc is now helping other people with their Wicket questions, just 3 days later! I was intending not to get involved on this, now far too long and too all-purposeified thread, but the mood has changed somewhat. Yes, a zip file with everything in it is a decent option for newcomers (but who's going to maintain it and keep it up to date? - maybe when 1.3 final is released this could be feasible), but it also has a lot of drawbacks, many of which have already been touched on in this thread. I still say that assuming you have a working Maven2 set up already or are able to achieve this without too much pain including setting up proxies etc..., and this, AFAICS, is where more than a few people get frustrated and start, totally incorrectly but perhaps understandably, thinking that Wicket is broken or hard to get started with, following the instructions now linked to from the Wicket homepage make it _really_ so fast and ever so easy to get up and running with Wicket, with all the advantages of the repository etc . Regards - Cemal http://jWeekend.co.uk jWeekend.co.uk Martijn Dashorst wrote: Did you type that capitalized Org yourself or is that something your email client did? Org.apache.wicket:wicket-archetype-quickstart:jar:1.3.0-beta3 ^ I guess you have made a typing error, since I have been able to use it (as have many others). Martijn On 9/11/07, jlawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi I have been trying to use the quickstart for beta3 with the Maven command as stated on the wicket site and it is not working. Build Error Unable to download file... Org.apache.wicket:wicket-archetype-quickstart:jar:1.3.0-beta3 Etc.. Can anyone please advise. Jim -- Sent with Instant Email from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 07:11:20 To:users@wicket.apache.org Subject: Re: First Day Disgust! no one is asking anyone here to become a maven guru. All we are asking is that they use it to generate a quickstart project, which simply involves following the directions. -igor On 9/11/07, Ayodeji Aladejebi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: maven maven maven, that is if all developers all over the world knows what maven is. Ant was what i first knew until i started hearing maven and infact it was mainly because of wicket that i learnt maven early before a netbeans module came out. so really not all developers will have some patience to first google maven fundamentals which is why i believe in: 1. Step 1, Install Your IDE (Everybody knows that) 2. Step 2, Install This Plugin (IDEs make that simple) 3. Step 3, Create a new Wicket Project and then BOOM it works without even a line of code yet (as much as i hated SWT, i learnt it this way) And lets remember the success of the ASP.NET family, you install Visual Studio and then BOOM your sample project is ready. Then you see this 2 days old developer feeling like he can code every website. that feeling is the success of every developer tool and dont let us forget that The Java community has a plethora of tools but as newer developers come on board, they need a clean entrance and maven is not what you learn at the early stage of your developer career (even though its simple to use, infact simpler than i thought cuz i hated Ant) My take, While off course maven is still the used tool, but the community should bring the useful IDE plugins to the forefront for starters Thanks On 9/11/07, Gerolf Seitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/10/07, Martijn Dashorst [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I haven't used an Eclipse plugin for maven since the command line version works really well and my previous experiences with mevenide were less than ok (talking about 2 years ago!) Martijn there seem to be a new maven-eclipse-integration plugin in town: http://code.google.com/p/q4e/ it's supposed to be part of the eclipse foundation. i haven't tried it out yet, but as i didn't really like m2eclipse, i will definitely give
Re: First Day Disgust!
On 9/11/07, Konstantin Ignatyev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: + generate ant build file to compile project and start jetty. That will make me happy as a lark :) I like Maven's idea and promise but implementation is not that great to my taste Then maybe Ant + Ivy would be good. Though people might start complaining about having to have Ivy installed. Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
I think the examples should include dependencies as possible. If there are license restrictions, include the download links in the README. That said, why does it *really* matter? I don't have maven installed, and I've never had any issues with wicket whatsoever. I haven't tried to compile wicket, though. On Sep 11, 2007, at 5:30 PM, Eelco Hillenius wrote: On 9/11/07, Konstantin Ignatyev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: + generate ant build file to compile project and start jetty. That will make me happy as a lark :) I like Maven's idea and promise but implementation is not that great to my taste Then maybe Ant + Ivy would be good. Though people might start complaining about having to have Ivy installed. Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
You could also look at how qwicket uses ant+maven tasks to build a system. The maven tasks handle downloading dependencies and ant does everything else. I know there's still that dependency on maven libs but it's just for the dependencies. And that's still miles ahead of using get to manage dependencies. If you'd rather add a get for all the dependencies and depdendencies of dependencies and dependencies of ... well, you're probably beyond all hope of help to start with. There may or may not be issues with repository availability but if you put something like artifactory between you and the maven repositories, most of those issues go away. In addition, you can deploy your own dependencies locally that have no maven presence anywhere and continue to use the same dependency definition scheme throughout your project. I don't like maven much either but I'd personally not manage my dependencies by hand. On 9/11/07, Konstantin Ignatyev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I like Ivy but I think that you are precisely correct: people will complain. I think that Ant's get command would be ideal and better than list of dependencies in README because it will explicitly point to the sources and it is easy to modify repository host if necessary. Konstantin Ignatyev - Original Message From: Eelco Hillenius [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: users@wicket.apache.org Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 2:30:21 PM Subject: Re: First Day Disgust! On 9/11/07, Konstantin Ignatyev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: + generate ant build file to compile project and start jetty. That will make me happy as a lark :) I like Maven's idea and promise but implementation is not that great to my taste Then maybe Ant + Ivy would be good. Though people might start complaining about having to have Ivy installed. Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
If you'd rather add a get for all the dependencies and depdendencies of dependencies and dependencies of ... well, you're probably beyond all hope of help to start with. Well, that is why 'get' is better :) - via transitive dependencies usually we get s many unnecessary jars that is creates appearance of monstrous needs of an application. Transitive dependencies are nice and can work (see Gentoo) but Maven handles them IMO rather poorly. But the fact that you have described makes me believe that it is dead easy to replace maven with pure Ant. - Original Message From: Evan Chooly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: users@wicket.apache.org Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 6:15:11 PM Subject: Re: First Day Disgust! You could also look at how qwicket uses ant+maven tasks to build a system. The maven tasks handle downloading dependencies and ant does everything else. I know there's still that dependency on maven libs but it's just for the dependencies. And that's still miles ahead of using get to manage dependencies. If you'd rather add a get for all the dependencies and depdendencies of dependencies and dependencies of ... well, you're probably beyond all hope of help to start with. There may or may not be issues with repository availability but if you put something like artifactory between you and the maven repositories, most of those issues go away. In addition, you can deploy your own dependencies locally that have no maven presence anywhere and continue to use the same dependency definition scheme throughout your project. I don't like maven much either but I'd personally not manage my dependencies by hand. On 9/11/07, Konstantin Ignatyev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I like Ivy but I think that you are precisely correct: people will complain. I think that Ant's get command would be ideal and better than list of dependencies in README because it will explicitly point to the sources and it is easy to modify repository host if necessary. Konstantin Ignatyev - Original Message From: Eelco Hillenius [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: users@wicket.apache.org Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 2:30:21 PM Subject: Re: First Day Disgust! On 9/11/07, Konstantin Ignatyev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: + generate ant build file to compile project and start jetty. That will make me happy as a lark :) I like Maven's idea and promise but implementation is not that great to my taste Then maybe Ant + Ivy would be good. Though people might start complaining about having to have Ivy installed. Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
(though people might argue that we could even replace logging with JDK logging) don't even think about it :D regards, --- jan. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
It is absurd. You can deploy your web application wherever you want. Thanks for explaining the most esoteric aspect of web applications. Perhaps no one knew it so far :-) . Well, it's not your fault either since this thread has grown out of proportions, and it's not easy to read all message. Alex Objelean wrote: It is absurd. You can deploy your web application wherever you want. I use Merve Eclipse plugin. It has the same benefits as Jetty, as you do not need to deploy your war for each modification, you just push the start button and it works (by inspecting the classpath of the projects involved). Or use maven to build the war for you, then copy it manually to tomcat or jboss or whatever... Or use ant (if you like it so much) to do the same thing. Alex. chickabee wrote: 2. It favors Jetty. ( Why even say Jetty, pom.xml has jetty dependencies defined. ) -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/First-Day-Disgust%21-tf4405663.html#a12587740 Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
Behind chickabee's attempt to provoke the Wicket community (which Eelco has commendably resisted) lies a real message, namely that there are so many web frameworks out there, that people only have enough time to kick the tyres before deciding which one to use, and therefore first impressions are critical. This is one reason that ruby on rails has taken off--the combination of Instant Rails and Active Record makes it the easiest framework to get a fully database-enabled application up and running. Wicket has done a great job of making it easy to get up and running, but there is always more to be done. Julian -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/First-Day-Disgust%21-tf4405663.html#a12601343 Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
so far i have heard a bunch of bitching but very little in the way of concrete suggestions. what are we to provide? a prebuilt project for eclipse? a prebuilt project for netbeans? a prebuilt project for idea? a prebuilt project for jedit? a prebuilt project for ant? a prebuilt project for make? a prebuilt project for buildr? a prebuilt project for foo? this is why we opted for maven, at least it can generate projects for all the major ides so we dont have to worry about it ourselves. the barrier to entry is incredibly low imho as it is - defined on our quickstart page of the website. 1) install maven2 - 5 minutes 2) run maven command to generate the project: 1 minute 3) run maven command to generate ide setup: 1 minute seven minutes and you have a project you can run inside your ide, or package into a war, or run from a command line with mvn jetty:run. -igor On 9/10/07, JulianS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Behind chickabee's attempt to provoke the Wicket community (which Eelco has commendably resisted) lies a real message, namely that there are so many web frameworks out there, that people only have enough time to kick the tyres before deciding which one to use, and therefore first impressions are critical. This is one reason that ruby on rails has taken off--the combination of Instant Rails and Active Record makes it the easiest framework to get a fully database-enabled application up and running. Wicket has done a great job of making it easy to get up and running, but there is always more to be done. Julian -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/First-Day-Disgust%21-tf4405663.html#a12601343 Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
This is one reason that ruby on rails has taken off--the combination of Instant Rails and Active Record makes it the easiest framework to get a fully database-enabled application up and running. Wicket has done a great job of making it easy to get up and running, but there is always more to be done. Definitively. The next steps in making the framework better imho is to focus more on stacks. It should be optional, and focussed on getting database apps up and running real quick. Databinder goes in this direction, and also projects like salve (Igor's baby) can mean a lot in this context. And what Matej has been working on, a cluster solution that is optimized for Wicket is another stack improvement (and the fact that Terracotta has specific Wicket support yet another). It wouldn't hurt of more people (other than the core team) would pick this up though. We are busy enough as it is with writing the book, supporting this list and fixing bugs etc. I'm definitively interested to play around with ideas myself once we get the book over with. Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
Not to mention IDEA 7M2 (or even versions before that) can read a maven pom, and use that directly. Netbeans also has a maven plugin that does that (took me 1 minute to discover and less to install the plugin). I haven't used an Eclipse plugin for maven since the command line version works really well and my previous experiences with mevenide were less than ok (talking about 2 years ago!) Martijn -- Buy Wicket in Action: http://manning.com/dashorst Apache Wicket 1.3.0-beta3 is released Get it now: http://www.apache.org/dyn/closer.cgi/wicket/1.3.0-beta3/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
On 9/10/07, Igor Vaynberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: so far i have heard a bunch of bitching but very little in the way of concrete suggestions. what are we to provide? a prebuilt project for eclipse? a prebuilt project for netbeans? a prebuilt project for idea? a prebuilt project for jedit? a prebuilt project for ant? a prebuilt project for make? a prebuilt project for buildr? a prebuilt project for foo? this is why we opted for maven, at least it can generate projects for all the major ides so we dont have to worry about it ourselves. the barrier to entry is incredibly low imho as it is - defined on our quickstart page of the website. Yeah, I think we facilitate n00bs enough already. There are definitively a lot of things we can improve on Wicket, but dumbing things down even more isn't very interesting. Eelco Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
On 9/10/07, JulianS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip This is one reason that ruby on rails has taken off--the combination of Instant Rails and Active Record makes it the easiest framework to get a fully database-enabled application up and running. snip Julian But the thing is, if someone would have started bitching at DHH why do I have to install this gems thing to get a Rails app working he would have told them where to go. Chickabee was po'd because Wicket uses Maven for a few things and that's not how he operates. Because we are using a well established ecosystem such as Java (Ruby was all greenfield when Rails came out), everyone probably does things 100 different ways in our neck of the woods. Unfortunately this may loose some of those not willing to try a new (and frankly better) way. Even though you really only need Maven for the quick starts. After that, download the jars manually and Ant away... Craig. -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/First-Day-Disgust%21-tf4405663.html#a12601343 Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
what are we to provide? a prebuilt project for eclipse? a prebuilt project for netbeans? a prebuilt project for idea? a prebuilt project for jedit? a prebuilt project for ant? a prebuilt project for make? a prebuilt project for buildr? a prebuilt project for foo? i want Igors Special Build johan
Re: First Day Disgust!
chickabee wrote: Hi Wicketers, I tried wicket today and the example application was up and running on tomcat in no time, so that was the good part, after that if I like to create a sample application on my own then I found no easy way to start. Examples are good to browse through and tell about wicket capabilities, however, not so good from learning point of view, All of the examples are glued together in one big jar file and it is just not quick enough to create a bare-bone application quickly and easily, I tried Quicket as mentioned in the readme file, however, Quickets is nothing but waste of time, because it is glued with Hibernate and Spring and both should not be there to start with. Not a good experience trying wicket so far, I guess it's the time to try out some more simpler app frameworks, -Thumbs Down to Wicket! You think this is bad try to get a Tapestry 5 app to work... - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
and Java web applications (what is a war, what is a web.xml file). Wicket, being component based, has great appeal for people with non-web GUI experience only. You're right about that. I included a link to a primer on Java web applications in the Wiki (http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WICKET/Index#Index-FrameworkDocumentation). If you think we should include that link in other places, please share. Cheers, Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
Hi Wicketers, No doubt you guys are a vibrant community. It was nice listening to all the rant and raves and jitters and it is even more exciting to see some positive action on this small but important issue. I am for Wicket, so I criticized it to make it even more widely adaptable, because wicket is a well thought out web framework. I looked into Maven and did all the Quick-Start exercise, I have the application up and running using Maven. Quick Start has following obvious flaws: 1. It is based on Maven. (I am not apache community with 25 projects running in parallel, I just want to make a small app using wicket. Maven is overkill). 2. It favors Jetty. ( Why even say Jetty, pom.xml has jetty dependencies defined. ) 3. It depends on log4j. (Newer JDK have all the logging features needed. ) 4. Advises the user to follow test driven development. (I want to be a bad developer, is that okay?). All above default integrations and suggestions are unnecessary and undermine Wicket and make it less appealing to Non-Wicketers and possible adopters of this great phenomenon. This is not the responsibility of the Wicket community to tell people what they should use or should not use. It is the decision of wicket end user if they want to integrate wicket with a double-cheese-burger :-) then let them do it on their own, but certainly Quick Start rather be as rudimentary as possible, take it as a marketing trick to entice the people to use wicket and make them fall in love with wicket at first sight. Thank you all for listening. === Craig Tataryn wrote: FYI Chickabee, if you are using Netbeans and use the Wicket plugin it is bundled with some helpful sample apps. Craig. On 9/8/07, chickabee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the great idea. It believe it will be good to put a few of the examples application in their own folders and war files so that they can be studied independently without the clutter of 20 projects. Another thing I notice is that maven is the default build tool used for wicket, I guess it will be good to provide the ant build.xml, just in case someone does not want full maven features. --- David Bernard-2 wrote: Welcome, If you want to start a blank project, try: $ mvn archetype:create -DarchetypeGroupId=org.apache.wicket -DarchetypeArtifactId=wicket-archetype-quickstart -DarchetypeVersion=1.3.0-beta3 -DgroupId=com.mycompany -DartifactId=myproject $ cd myproject $ more pom.xml then in this project try (copy/paste) the samples from the website. /david chickabee wrote: Hi Wicketers, I tried wicket today and the example application was up and running on tomcat in no time, so that was the good part, after that if I like to create a sample application on my own then I found no easy way to start. Examples are good to browse through and tell about wicket capabilities, however, not so good from learning point of view, All of the examples are glued together in one big jar file and it is just not quick enough to create a bare-bone application quickly and easily, I tried Quicket as mentioned in the readme file, however, Quickets is nothing but waste of time, because it is glued with Hibernate and Spring and both should not be there to start with. Not a good experience trying wicket so far, I guess it's the time to try out some more simpler app frameworks, -Thumbs Down to Wicket! - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/First-Day-Disgust%21-tf4405663.html#a12569195 Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/First-Day-Disgust%21-tf4405663.html#a12576738 Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
About the QuickStart (was Re: First Day Disgust!)
On Sunday, September 9, 2007, 8:55:35 AM, chickabee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I looked into Maven and did all the Quick-Start exercise, I have the application up and running using Maven. Quick Start has following obvious flaws: 1. It is based on Maven. (I am not apache community with 25 projects running in parallel, I just want to make a small app using wicket. Maven is overkill). Really? I assume you're suggesting Ant as an alternative - Why don't you try documenting the steps you'd need to download the various jars and requirements and see which is simpler. No cheating by saying 'download a complete meta jar', as we don't want the extra work and legal issues involved in trying to redistribute third-party apps. You can/should avoid having the user re-download any jars that they might have used in other projects built with the same tool though. Remember your goal is to be simpler than 1) Install Maven, 2) Create project via mvn archetype ..., 3) Build run project via mvn jetty:run. 2. It favors Jetty. ( Why even say Jetty, pom.xml has jetty dependencies defined. ) It includes a support class under src/test/java to help with debugging the web-app via an embedded Jetty instance, true. There's nothing that favours Jetty apart from that dedicated support class in the QuickStart, though. 3. It depends on log4j. (Newer JDK have all the logging features needed. ) The specific dependency in use in Wicket generally is actually the SLF4J framework, which allows/requires the end-user to choose the actual logging implementation. For the QuickStart we used log4j, as most developers would be familiar with it but it's trivial to change - you do have to choose something, though. 4. Advises the user to follow test driven development. (I want to be a bad developer, is that okay?). No comment... All above default integrations and suggestions are unnecessary and undermine Wicket and make it less appealing to Non-Wicketers and possible adopters of this great phenomenon. Without them, you don't get a running application with a 3 steps, one of which being to install Maven, which is the critical bit to convince people that yes, it /is/ that simple to get started! /Gwyn - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
All the opinions above are my own; not the wicket community, not the developers of wicket. I really, really wish that users of open source software would show more respect to the developers who put so much time and effort into the products that those users use, however. I second this. Again, I'd like to express my thanks to all the Wicket devs for such a great framework, and all the great help and patience they consistently show on this list. Cheers to you all! - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
On 9/9/07, chickabee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. It is based on Maven. (I am not apache community with 25 projects running in parallel, I just want to make a small app using wicket. Maven is overkill). so write a quick ant script. the generated project itself has no dependencies on maven 2. It favors Jetty. ( Why even say Jetty, pom.xml has jetty dependencies defined. ) notice they are scoped test, so not required at deploy time. the great thing about jetty is this: you can quickly get your app running using mvn jetty:jetty command if you want. but even better, when developing you dont need to package your app into a war and deploy it - which are big time wasting steps when you have to do them every ten minutes. instead simply launch the included Start class and your app is up and running in seconds and includes hotswap. 3. It depends on log4j. (Newer JDK have all the logging features needed. ) we prefer log4j because it is more flexible then jdklogging, but this is a religious issue. all you have to do is remove the log4j jar and its slf4j equivalent and dropin the slf4j jdk log impl jar. 4. Advises the user to follow test driven development. (I want to be a bad developer, is that okay?). huh? All above default integrations and suggestions are unnecessary and undermine Wicket and make it less appealing to Non-Wicketers and possible adopters of this great phenomenon. you know, you are the first who seem to think that, ever. most new users find themselves at home with the project and dependencies quickstart generates. -igor This is not the responsibility of the Wicket community to tell people what they should use or should not use. It is the decision of wicket end user if they want to integrate wicket with a double-cheese-burger :-) then let them do it on their own, but certainly Quick Start rather be as rudimentary as possible, take it as a marketing trick to entice the people to use wicket and make them fall in love with wicket at first sight. Thank you all for listening. === Craig Tataryn wrote: FYI Chickabee, if you are using Netbeans and use the Wicket plugin it is bundled with some helpful sample apps. Craig. On 9/8/07, chickabee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the great idea. It believe it will be good to put a few of the examples application in their own folders and war files so that they can be studied independently without the clutter of 20 projects. Another thing I notice is that maven is the default build tool used for wicket, I guess it will be good to provide the ant build.xml, just in case someone does not want full maven features. --- David Bernard-2 wrote: Welcome, If you want to start a blank project, try: $ mvn archetype:create -DarchetypeGroupId=org.apache.wicket -DarchetypeArtifactId=wicket-archetype-quickstart -DarchetypeVersion=1.3.0-beta3 -DgroupId=com.mycompany -DartifactId=myproject $ cd myproject $ more pom.xml then in this project try (copy/paste) the samples from the website. /david chickabee wrote: Hi Wicketers, I tried wicket today and the example application was up and running on tomcat in no time, so that was the good part, after that if I like to create a sample application on my own then I found no easy way to start. Examples are good to browse through and tell about wicket capabilities, however, not so good from learning point of view, All of the examples are glued together in one big jar file and it is just not quick enough to create a bare-bone application quickly and easily, I tried Quicket as mentioned in the readme file, however, Quickets is nothing but waste of time, because it is glued with Hibernate and Spring and both should not be there to start with. Not a good experience trying wicket so far, I guess it's the time to try out some more simpler app frameworks, -Thumbs Down to Wicket! - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/First-Day-Disgust%21-tf4405663.html#a12569195 Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/First-Day-Disgust%21-tf4405663.html#a12576738 Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL
Re: First Day Disgust!
oh yeah, netbeans to the rescue! btw, tim and i have been good friends since the 4th grade. Ayodeji Aladejebi wrote: hey chickabee, am concerned for people like you and what you are missing so i have decided to help you so you wont find yourself in some my help only works if you use Netbeans6 though, its free for download already I have checked out and built wicket support for netbeans from http://blogs.sun.com/geertjan/entry/when_boudreau_met_wicket if you have NB6 installed already, install these two NB modules, create a WebApplication Project in NB and you will have a ready sample application that runs fine and contains all the artifacts you need to build without errors Download and install this module into NB6 http://www.dabarobjects.com/downloads/org-netbeans-modules-web-wicket.nbm Download and install this module in Netbeans6 http://www.dabarobjects.com/downloads/org-netbeans-modules-wicket-library.nbm start netbeans, create a new Web Application Project, Select Wicket 1.2 and then BOOM! everything is ready to go and you should be in the wicket business. it does not get simpler my 2 cent On 9/9/07, Florian Sperber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jonathan Locke schrieb: do my homework for me now or i will continue mock your miserable web framework! the funny thing is, that you already did the homework for all of us :-) I really like wicket, the concepts behind it, the wiki (which already covers much ground), the examples (my often life savers) and the community which is great. In my opinion it is not the job of the developers to provide EVERYTHING anyone could possibly need, it's the job of the user to invest time to solve the problems. And as this list has already proven, if politely asked most problems are solved in minutes. Kind regards, Florian Sperber P.S. The purpose of this mail is mainly to show that some people still DO LIKE your work ;-) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin) iD8DBQFG48OQTJfKjmvEjHwRArXKAJ93nrKA3d5vlPAIAicb1IcLVpZVsgCdGOo2 xA4EG/vSoqNpCI8F5jrB1Ro= =oB9U -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/First-Day-Disgust%21-tf4405663.html#a12580507 Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
A maven archetype is really helpful and the quickstart guide is good but for me personally I would rather see the documentation restructured a bit. The thing I miss is a small text explaining what the different JAR-files actually contain. Something like this (pardon my english, it is not my native language): Introduction - To build a wicket web application you need to understand the WAR-format and what the web.xml is. Introduction on Java web applications A must read for anyone developing web applications with Java. We presume you know this before you start working with Wicket. Quick start The following JAR-files are the minimum needed in WEB-INF/lib to developa a wicket application: * wicket-1.3.0-beta3.jar * slf4j-api-1.4.2.jar * slf4j-jdk14-1.4.2.jar Maven - If you use maven (http://maven.apache.org/) which the wicket project uses there is an arcehtype that can get you up to speed quickly. See http://wicket.apache.org/quickstart.html That's it, now go kick the tires! More features of wicket -- * wicket-auth-roles-1.3.0-beta3.jar - http://cwiki.apache.org/WICKET/acegi-and-wicket-auth-roles.html * wicket-datetime-1.3.0-beta3.jar - ??? * wicket-extensions-1.3.0-beta3.jar - More components... * wicket-ioc-1.3.0-beta3.jar - ??? * wicket-guice-1.3.0-beta3.jar - Integration with the Guice IoC container * wicket-jmx-1.3.0-beta3.jar - ??? * wicket-objectsizeof-agent-1.3.0-beta3.jar - ??? * wicket-spring-1.3.0-beta3.jar - http://cwiki.apache.org/WICKET/spring.html * wicket-spring-annot-1.3.0-beta3.jar - ??? * wicket-velocity-1.3.0-beta3.jar - ??? On 9/8/07, Gwyn Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday, September 8, 2007, 2:00:32 PM, Johan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sure, there is nothing special about Ant and wicket is very easy to set up and the dependencies needed are kind of explained somewhere. But I keep seing requests for information from newbies (such as myself) answered with maven command lines or look at the source. Well, that's part of the reason that we've created the Maven Archetype for QuickStart and documented it at http://wicket.apache.org/quickstart.html. While we've got nothing against anyone creating a Wicket and Ant page on the Wiki, if users aren't able to either install Maven to use the Archetype or take the downloads we supply and use them in Ant without it all done for them, then to my mind, there's a significant danger that the level of OO coding required to use Wicket might be problematic for them... /Gwyn - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
I hate to say it, but I'll do it anyway: It is a wiki so if you think something is missing/incomplete/incorrect/needs restructuring... log on and make it better! Not only will you benefit from the change, but the rest of the community will have a better life too! As for the component descriptions, we are trying to coerse maven into generating a website similar to the one we had for 1.2, but now for 1.3. in the future it will become available here (nothing there to see at this moment): http://wicket.apache.org/wicket13 and the url structure would be something like: http://wicket.apache.org/wicket13/index.html - overview http://wicket.apache.org/wicket13/wicket - wicket core http://wicket.apache.org/wicket13/wicket/dependencies.html http://wicket.apache.org/wicket13/wicket/index.html http://wicket.apache.org/wicket13/wicket/source-repository.html http://wicket.apache.org/wicket13/wicket/apidocs http://wicket.apache.org/wicket13/wicket-extensions http://wicket.apache.org/wicket13/wicket-extensions/index.html http://wicket.apache.org/wicket13/wicket-extensions/dependencies.html http://wicket.apache.org/wicket13/wicket-extensions/source-repository.html http://wicket.apache.org/wicket13/wicket-extensions/apidocs http://wicket.apache.org/wicket13/wicket-datetime http://wicket.apache.org/wicket13/wicket-datetime/index.html etc. Martijn On 9/9/07, Johan Maasing [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A maven archetype is really helpful and the quickstart guide is good but for me personally I would rather see the documentation restructured a bit. The thing I miss is a small text explaining what the different JAR-files actually contain. Something like this (pardon my english, it is not my native language): Introduction - To build a wicket web application you need to understand the WAR-format and what the web.xml is. Introduction on Java web applications A must read for anyone developing web applications with Java. We presume you know this before you start working with Wicket. Quick start The following JAR-files are the minimum needed in WEB-INF/lib to developa a wicket application: * wicket-1.3.0-beta3.jar * slf4j-api-1.4.2.jar * slf4j-jdk14-1.4.2.jar Maven - If you use maven (http://maven.apache.org/) which the wicket project uses there is an arcehtype that can get you up to speed quickly. See http://wicket.apache.org/quickstart.html That's it, now go kick the tires! More features of wicket -- * wicket-auth-roles-1.3.0-beta3.jar - http://cwiki.apache.org/WICKET/acegi-and-wicket-auth-roles.html * wicket-datetime-1.3.0-beta3.jar - ??? * wicket-extensions-1.3.0-beta3.jar - More components... * wicket-ioc-1.3.0-beta3.jar - ??? * wicket-guice-1.3.0-beta3.jar - Integration with the Guice IoC container * wicket-jmx-1.3.0-beta3.jar - ??? * wicket-objectsizeof-agent-1.3.0-beta3.jar - ??? * wicket-spring-1.3.0-beta3.jar - http://cwiki.apache.org/WICKET/spring.html * wicket-spring-annot-1.3.0-beta3.jar - ??? * wicket-velocity-1.3.0-beta3.jar - ??? On 9/8/07, Gwyn Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday, September 8, 2007, 2:00:32 PM, Johan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sure, there is nothing special about Ant and wicket is very easy to set up and the dependencies needed are kind of explained somewhere. But I keep seing requests for information from newbies (such as myself) answered with maven command lines or look at the source. Well, that's part of the reason that we've created the Maven Archetype for QuickStart and documented it at http://wicket.apache.org/quickstart.html. While we've got nothing against anyone creating a Wicket and Ant page on the Wiki, if users aren't able to either install Maven to use the Archetype or take the downloads we supply and use them in Ant without it all done for them, then to my mind, there's a significant danger that the level of OO coding required to use Wicket might be problematic for them... /Gwyn - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Buy Wicket in Action: http://manning.com/dashorst Apache Wicket 1.3.0-beta3 is released Get it now: http://www.apache.org/dyn/closer.cgi/wicket/1.3.0-beta3/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
I know i'm a little late on this thread, but as the author of qwicket, i take particular issue with saying because it's glued with hibernate and spring that it's no good. The express purpose of qwicket is to create a template for spring/hibernate/wicket based applications. So if it's no good because it uses those, the problem is with you. Blaming a tool built explicitly to leverage those libraries is, to be as blunt as you, stupid. Learn to pick better tools or hire out your work. On 9/8/07, chickabee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Wicketers, I tried wicket today and the example application was up and running on tomcat in no time, so that was the good part, after that if I like to create a sample application on my own then I found no easy way to start. Examples are good to browse through and tell about wicket capabilities, however, not so good from learning point of view, All of the examples are glued together in one big jar file and it is just not quick enough to create a bare-bone application quickly and easily, I tried Quicket as mentioned in the readme file, however, Quickets is nothing but waste of time, because it is glued with Hibernate and Spring and both should not be there to start with. Not a good experience trying wicket so far, I guess it's the time to try out some more simpler app frameworks, -Thumbs Down to Wicket! -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/First-Day-Disgust%21-tf4405663.html#a12568938 Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
Totally agree. I like to understand what is going on so I created a 'sandbox' type project in Netbeans, manually referenced the wicket libraries, created the application and webpage class with related HTML, and the Web.xml. I was up and running in under an hour. The application runs on Tomcat with iBatis and mySQL - nothing fancy no Jetty, Hibernate. My process of learning the framework is again simple. Add pages to the 'sandbox ' application and add components to the page that I want to learn/play with. Before I knew it I had working examples of most of the Wicket components with Java code I had written and understood. I like Wicket. I have the greatest respect for the developers who devote their time to giving us a worthwhile framework, and to the Wicket community who are always willing to help. My advice is to build an application manually, the information is on the Wiki and in many blogs (just Google it). Read the book 'Pro-Wicket' and sign up to the Manning MEAPs version of 'Wicket In Action' Ryan Holmes wrote: Funny, one of the things I remember being really impressed with when I set up my first Wicket (1.2) app was how incredibly easy it was: 1.) Add wicket jars 2.) Write hello world home page 3.) Write WebApplication subclass and specify home page 4.) Map servlet in web.xml 5.) Hit run button in Eclipse w/WTP (or whatever your tools of choice are) I figured all that out from this obscure page on the wiki: http:// cwiki.apache.org/WICKET/newuserguide.html#Newuserguide- MyFirstApplication Of course, most people would never guess that a page entitled My First Application in the New User Guide might hold the information a new user would need when writing their first Wicket application, so perhaps Wicket is only intended for really, really smart people. -Ryan On Sep 8, 2007, at 6:06 AM, chickabee wrote: Thanks for providing me the primer on web applications and Ant and for not trying to understand what point I am trying to make here. Yes, we are not dealing with nuclear science here and Yes again wicket is just another web application, Did someone disagree with that. I hope not. Once you are out in the market to try the new webapps then it always makes sense to have people be able to get up and running on the basics w/ o efforts and not to have to deal with tricks necessary to get basic app to work. A common expectation is a simple standalone app without Maven/Spring/Hibernate etc unnecessary stuff. Run 'ant' on the command line and here u have the war file, now, make a few changes to experiment and then run 'ant' again to have modified war. Simple. Obviously the current example is for the comfort of wicket creators and not for the comfort of prospective users and that is the problem here. Any one with basic common sense will get this up and running after a day's tinkering around, but that can be avoided by adding simple things here in the examples, that is the point I am trying to sell here only if there are buyers out there with open mind. Al Maw wrote: chickabee wrote: Thanks for the great idea. Note that this is displayed fairly prominently on the web site at http://wicket.apache.org under QuickStart. It believe it will be good to put a few of the examples application in their own folders and war files so that they can be studied independently without the clutter of 20 projects. We used to have this, however, grouping all the examples into one project has several big advantages: - Getting all the examples running in your IDE is much easier. - We don't have ten extra projects to manage the build files for. - We can easily link to all the examples from a single page. Another thing I notice is that maven is the default build tool used for wicket, I guess it will be good to provide the ant build.xml, just in case someone does not want full maven features. I think we need to write a page on this on the web site that we can send people to. ;-) An Ant build for Wicket isn't special. If you don't know how to use Ant, it's not our job to show you. There are no magic custom Ant tasks we provide, or JSP pre-compilation steps, or anything like that. All you need is to compile your app with the necessary dependencies, just like any other Java app. You'll also need your web.xml, etc. just like any other Java web app. Nothing special here. Regards, Al - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/First-Day- Disgust%21-tf4405663.html#a12569457 Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL
Re: First Day Disgust!
Welcome, If you want to start a blank project, try: $ mvn archetype:create -DarchetypeGroupId=org.apache.wicket -DarchetypeArtifactId=wicket-archetype-quickstart -DarchetypeVersion=1.3.0-beta3 -DgroupId=com.mycompany -DartifactId=myproject $ cd myproject $ more pom.xml then in this project try (copy/paste) the samples from the website. /david chickabee wrote: Hi Wicketers, I tried wicket today and the example application was up and running on tomcat in no time, so that was the good part, after that if I like to create a sample application on my own then I found no easy way to start. Examples are good to browse through and tell about wicket capabilities, however, not so good from learning point of view, All of the examples are glued together in one big jar file and it is just not quick enough to create a bare-bone application quickly and easily, I tried Quicket as mentioned in the readme file, however, Quickets is nothing but waste of time, because it is glued with Hibernate and Spring and both should not be there to start with. Not a good experience trying wicket so far, I guess it's the time to try out some more simpler app frameworks, -Thumbs Down to Wicket! - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
what a complement chickabee wrote: Hi Wicketers, I tried wicket today and the example application was up and running on tomcat in no time, so that was the good part, after that if I like to create a sample application on my own then I found no easy way to start. Examples are good to browse through and tell about wicket capabilities, however, not so good from learning point of view, All of the examples are glued together in one big jar file and it is just not quick enough to create a bare-bone application quickly and easily, I tried Quicket as mentioned in the readme file, however, Quickets is nothing but waste of time, because it is glued with Hibernate and Spring and both should not be there to start with. Not a good experience trying wicket so far, I guess it's the time to try out some more simpler app frameworks, -Thumbs Down to Wicket! - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
hi, the problem is, that many to be users aren't that deep into oo programming as expected. also, people trying out wicket don't come from a maven background but maybe from plain jsp or other frameworks - or even php. $ mvn archetype:create -DarchetypeGroupId=org.apache.wicket -DarchetypeArtifactId=wicket-archetype-quickstart -DarchetypeVersion=1.3.0-beta3 -DgroupId=com.mycompany -DartifactId=myproject $ cd myproject $ more pom.xml i've this suggestions now quite a few times and many users did actually say 'i don't have maven installed'. many users are just doing some web programming as hobby and trying out new things once in a while. it surely isn't the fault of the developers what knowledge people have when they stumble over wicket and find it worth a look. but to start with wicket for a newcomer it might be helpful to not be dependend on maven. on the other hand, i really don't understand why it's so hard to create a small wicket-project by hand: just set up a java project and add the wicket.jar to the build path and start coding. one has then to see for his own servlet container, but that one should know. regards, --- jan. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
Thanks for providing me the primer on web applications and Ant and for not trying to understand what point I am trying to make here. Yes, we are not dealing with nuclear science here and Yes again wicket is just another web application, Did someone disagree with that. I hope not. Once you are out in the market to try the new webapps then it always makes sense to have people be able to get up and running on the basics w/o efforts and not to have to deal with tricks necessary to get basic app to work. A common expectation is a simple standalone app without Maven/Spring/Hibernate etc unnecessary stuff. Run 'ant' on the command line and here u have the war file, now, make a few changes to experiment and then run 'ant' again to have modified war. Simple. Obviously the current example is for the comfort of wicket creators and not for the comfort of prospective users and that is the problem here. Any one with basic common sense will get this up and running after a day's tinkering around, but that can be avoided by adding simple things here in the examples, that is the point I am trying to sell here only if there are buyers out there with open mind. Al Maw wrote: chickabee wrote: Thanks for the great idea. Note that this is displayed fairly prominently on the web site at http://wicket.apache.org under QuickStart. It believe it will be good to put a few of the examples application in their own folders and war files so that they can be studied independently without the clutter of 20 projects. We used to have this, however, grouping all the examples into one project has several big advantages: - Getting all the examples running in your IDE is much easier. - We don't have ten extra projects to manage the build files for. - We can easily link to all the examples from a single page. Another thing I notice is that maven is the default build tool used for wicket, I guess it will be good to provide the ant build.xml, just in case someone does not want full maven features. I think we need to write a page on this on the web site that we can send people to. ;-) An Ant build for Wicket isn't special. If you don't know how to use Ant, it's not our job to show you. There are no magic custom Ant tasks we provide, or JSP pre-compilation steps, or anything like that. All you need is to compile your app with the necessary dependencies, just like any other Java app. You'll also need your web.xml, etc. just like any other Java web app. Nothing special here. Regards, Al - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/First-Day-Disgust%21-tf4405663.html#a12569457 Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
chickabee wrote: Once you are out in the market to try the new webapps then it always makes sense to have people be able to get up and running on the basics w/o efforts and not to have to deal with tricks necessary to get basic app to work. I absolutely agree. Install Maven 2 (takes five minutes, there's a readme on their site, etc.). Create your own new Wicket project using the Maven 2 archetype and import it into any of the three major Java IDEs and run it (takes five minutes, instructions prominently placed on the Wicket web site). Optionally compile the examples and have a play (takes another five minutes, and we even host these live on http://wicketstuff.org/wicket13, linked from the Wicket home page, so you don't need to bother if you just want to have a poke around). A common expectation is a simple standalone app without Maven/Spring/Hibernate etc unnecessary stuff. Run 'ant' on the command line and here u have the war file, now, make a few changes to experiment and then run 'ant' again to have modified war. Simple. We support extremely quick set-up and configuration using Maven 2, which has superior functionality via its eclipse, idea and netbeans plug-ins for initial set-up with minimal effort, and templating for extremely quick and easy quick-start of a Wicket project with the appropriate web.xml, etc. If we make you use Ant instead, there will be just as many people who complain that they want to use Maven. It will also be less powerful and not really any easier. People would still have to look up the ant task names we'd used and would ask questions about that instead, and want to know how to manage the dependencies using Ivy, and all the rest of it. Obviously the current example is for the comfort of wicket creators and not for the comfort of prospective users and that is the problem here. We're expecting you to do _FIVE_MINUTES_ extra work here installing Maven 2. The Wicket developers have put in thousands and thousands of hours of work for you to build on, for free. Yes, we want our lives to be easier. Do you see why I think you're being more than a little unreasonable here? If you're a sufficiently experienced developer to have tried Maven 2 and found it not to your taste, that's fine. But that shouldn't stop you from using it to set up an evaluation project and make having a play with Wicket nice and easy. As mentioned in other threads, there are other options if you don't want to use it in your production build environment. We provide easy-to-follow ten-minute set-up instructions to get you quickly started with Wicket. Much effort has been put in to make sure this is nice and easy. Like Robo, you are choosing to ignore the large path we have beaten for you and then complaining that you're lost in the forest with no map. I'm all for improvements driven by the us Any one with basic common sense will get this up and running after a day's tinkering around, but that can be avoided by adding simple things here in the examples, that is the point I am trying to sell here only if there are buyers out there with open mind. If it takes you a day to install Maven 2 and follow four lines of instructions on a prominently-linked web page... Regards, Al - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
I totally agree with Jan. There's no black magic occurring around Wicket, and the best way to go for a newbie may be to simply create a new web project in Eclipse WTP or Netbeans, drop wicket.jar, log4j.jar, and slf4j-log4j.jar (if you're using wicket1.3), and follow HelloWorld sample from here : http://wicket.apache.org/examplehelloworld.html. This way, you save the 5 extra minutes needed to install Maven ;-) Jan Kriesten a écrit : hi, the problem is, that many to be users aren't that deep into oo programming as expected. also, people trying out wicket don't come from a maven background but maybe from plain jsp or other frameworks - or even php. $ mvn archetype:create -DarchetypeGroupId=org.apache.wicket -DarchetypeArtifactId=wicket-archetype-quickstart -DarchetypeVersion=1.3.0-beta3 -DgroupId=com.mycompany -DartifactId=myproject $ cd myproject $ more pom.xml i've this suggestions now quite a few times and many users did actually say 'i don't have maven installed'. many users are just doing some web programming as hobby and trying out new things once in a while. it surely isn't the fault of the developers what knowledge people have when they stumble over wicket and find it worth a look. but to start with wicket for a newcomer it might be helpful to not be dependend on maven. on the other hand, i really don't understand why it's so hard to create a small wicket-project by hand: just set up a java project and add the wicket.jar to the build path and start coding. one has then to see for his own servlet container, but that one should know. regards, --- jan. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
Igor Vaynberg wrote: -igor On 9/8/07, C. Bergström [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: chickabee wrote: Hi Wicketers, snip / -Thumbs Down to Wicket! Patches welcome (: we dont want a build.xml contribution. we can write one ourselves if need be. we are simply not interested in maintaining yet another way to build wicket. We are all getting sucked into this bs needlessly.. and by 'patches welcome' I was using a line from this (imho very good) google techtalks (Brian Fitzpatrick) video. It's about poisonous people in open source software.. http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
http://www.sonatype.com/book/introduction.html#why_not_just_use_ant On 9/8/07, Igor Vaynberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: we dont want a build.xml contribution. we can write one ourselves if need be. we are simply not interested in maintaining yet another way to build wicket. -igor On 9/8/07, C. Bergström [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: chickabee wrote: Hi Wicketers, snip / -Thumbs Down to Wicket! Patches welcome (: - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
On Saturday, September 8, 2007, 2:00:32 PM, Johan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sure, there is nothing special about Ant and wicket is very easy to set up and the dependencies needed are kind of explained somewhere. But I keep seing requests for information from newbies (such as myself) answered with maven command lines or look at the source. Well, that's part of the reason that we've created the Maven Archetype for QuickStart and documented it at http://wicket.apache.org/quickstart.html. While we've got nothing against anyone creating a Wicket and Ant page on the Wiki, if users aren't able to either install Maven to use the Archetype or take the downloads we supply and use them in Ant without it all done for them, then to my mind, there's a significant danger that the level of OO coding required to use Wicket might be problematic for them... /Gwyn - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
On 9/8/07, chickabee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Wicketers, I tried wicket today and the example application was up and running on tomcat in no time, so that was the good part, after that if I like to create a sample application on my own then I found no easy way to start. Examples are good to browse through and tell about wicket capabilities, however, not so good from learning point of view, All of the examples are glued together in one big jar file and it is just not quick enough to create a bare-bone application quickly and easily, I tried Quicket as mentioned in the readme file, however, Quickets is nothing but waste of time, because it is glued with Hibernate and Spring and both should not be there to start with. Not a good experience trying wicket so far, I guess it's the time to try out some more simpler app frameworks, -Thumbs Down to Wicket! I love how you contribute to making our industry better. Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
eelco you have fallen off your horse already? -igor On 9/8/07, Eelco Hillenius [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/8/07, chickabee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Wicketers, I tried wicket today and the example application was up and running on tomcat in no time, so that was the good part, after that if I like to create a sample application on my own then I found no easy way to start. Examples are good to browse through and tell about wicket capabilities, however, not so good from learning point of view, All of the examples are glued together in one big jar file and it is just not quick enough to create a bare-bone application quickly and easily, I tried Quicket as mentioned in the readme file, however, Quickets is nothing but waste of time, because it is glued with Hibernate and Spring and both should not be there to start with. Not a good experience trying wicket so far, I guess it's the time to try out some more simpler app frameworks, -Thumbs Down to Wicket! I love how you contribute to making our industry better. Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
On 9/8/07, Igor Vaynberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: eelco you have fallen off your horse already? I guess, sorry. Let me get back on again :) Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
Sorry Igor. I pack wicket app, simple wicket demo app, very well in WAR layout. If I`m not right please point me to point where wicket app border is extending WAR layout border. Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \Igor Vaynberg\ Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 23:36 Predmet: Re: Re: First Day Disgust! what you all seem to not be able to comprehend is that applications DO NOT come in a WAR layout. the war file is packaged together by combining different things from different places, and this is what the build tools are for (whether it be ant or maven). -igor On 08 Sep 2007 22:33:06 +0200 (CEST), Robo wrote: Jesus. Time spended at this endless talk read and write could be spent in writing one simple Demo app. Simple demo app reqest is very legitimate. And my vote is for demo app without Ant, Maven also. Demo App just based supposed basic knowledge of Servlet technologies, or just be familiar with WAR directory layout. Wicket is realy very simple so it would be good if this simplicity would be underscored also by demo app. Maven has its good points and also weak ones. But generaly it is used mostly on company levels and not on the levles of individial newbies. Most of them just know hov to write servlet, JSP and so on. and this I think major part of framework newbies needs to understand strength of wicket. Maven ads some virtual complication to the proces that not many newbies know maven and when seen first time they can be scared of it. So they can back off. IMHO one needs to firstly understand basic concepts, based just on very simple premises like beeign familiar with WAR and t hen this concept could be widened by using maven and point out some benefits of it. Maven + Wicket for firstimers can be simple too much and can leed to presumption that Wicket must be used with Maven. IMHO More didactic way maybe should be. 1. Needed prereq of WAR file layout 2. setup Wicket demo app on this knowledge. 3. Descrivbe what is behind curtain of wicket app on one simple wicket tag decorator. 4. describe how to enhance using Maven. Wicket is framework which is fast learnable and I beleave when getting the point you can write application within just one hour. More didactic aproach to demo could lead to greater adoption As soon as I finish my work of testing some frameworks, this could be within two weeks I can write some demo app with simple explanation taking more didactic aproach :-) just let me know to whom I can send it, and the format of the wiki. Confrontation at this thread is just useless ... Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: chickabee Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 15:06 Predmet: Re: First Day Disgust! Thanks for providing me the primer on web applications and Ant and for not trying to understand what point I am trying to make here. Yes, we are not dealing with nuclear science here and Yes again wicket is just another web application, Did someone disagree with that. I hope not. Once you are out in the market to try the new webapps then it always makes sense to have people be able to get up and running on the basics w/o efforts and not to have to deal with tricks necessary to get basic app to work. A common expectation is a simple standalone app without Maven/Spring/Hibernate etc unnecessary stuff. Run \\\'ant\\\' on the command line and here u have the war file, now, make a few changes to experiment and then run \\\'ant\\\' again to have modified war. Simple. Obviously the current example is for the comfort of wicket creators and not for the comfort of prospective users and that is the problem here. Any one with basic common sense will get this up and running after a day\\\'s tinkering around, but that can be avoided by adding simple things here in the examples, that is the point I am trying to sell here only if there are buyers out there with open mind. Al Maw wrote: chickabee wrote: Thanks for the great idea. Note that this is displayed fairly prominently on the web site at http://wicket.apache.org under \\\QuickStart\\\. It believe it will be good to put a few of the examples application in their own folders and war files so that they can be studied independently without the clutter of 20 projects. We used to have this, however, grouping all the examples into one project has several big advantages: - Getting all the examples running in your IDE is much easier. - We don\\\'t have ten extra projects to manage the build files for. - We can easily link to all the examples from a single page. Another thing I notice is that maven is the default build tool used for wicket, I guess it will be good to provide the ant build.xml, just in case someone does
Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
As soon as I finish my work of testing some frameworks, this could be within two weeks I can write some demo app with simple explanation taking more didactic aproach :-) just let me know to whom I can send it, and the format of the wiki. Put it on the WIKI or e.g. blog about it please. I'm interested to see what you come up with. Do note however, that we presume basic knowledge of Java programming and Java web applications (what is a war, what is a web.xml file). There are thousands of articles and books on that, and there is no point for us to write yet another explanation on it. Anyway, thanks upfront for your contribution. Eelco - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
i would if that made any sense... -igor On 08 Sep 2007 22:52:05 +0200 (CEST), Robo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry Igor. I pack wicket app, simple wicket demo app, very well in WAR layout. If I`m not right please point me to point where wicket app border is extending WAR layout border. Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \Igor Vaynberg\ Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 23:36 Predmet: Re: Re: First Day Disgust! what you all seem to not be able to comprehend is that applications DO NOT come in a WAR layout. the war file is packaged together by combining different things from different places, and this is what the build tools are for (whether it be ant or maven). -igor On 08 Sep 2007 22:33:06 +0200 (CEST), Robo wrote: Jesus. Time spended at this endless talk read and write could be spent in writing one simple Demo app. Simple demo app reqest is very legitimate. And my vote is for demo app without Ant, Maven also. Demo App just based supposed basic knowledge of Servlet technologies, or just be familiar with WAR directory layout. Wicket is realy very simple so it would be good if this simplicity would be underscored also by demo app. Maven has its good points and also weak ones. But generaly it is used mostly on company levels and not on the levles of individial newbies. Most of them just know hov to write servlet, JSP and so on. and this I think major part of framework newbies needs to understand strength of wicket. Maven ads some virtual complication to the proces that not many newbies know maven and when seen first time they can be scared of it. So they can back off. IMHO one needs to firstly understand basic concepts, based just on very simple premises like beeign familiar with WAR and t hen this concept could be widened by using maven and point out some benefits of it. Maven + Wicket for firstimers can be simple too much and can leed to presumption that Wicket must be used with Maven. IMHO More didactic way maybe should be. 1. Needed prereq of WAR file layout 2. setup Wicket demo app on this knowledge. 3. Descrivbe what is behind curtain of wicket app on one simple wicket tag decorator. 4. describe how to enhance using Maven. Wicket is framework which is fast learnable and I beleave when getting the point you can write application within just one hour. More didactic aproach to demo could lead to greater adoption As soon as I finish my work of testing some frameworks, this could be within two weeks I can write some demo app with simple explanation taking more didactic aproach :-) just let me know to whom I can send it, and the format of the wiki. Confrontation at this thread is just useless ... Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: chickabee Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 15:06 Predmet: Re: First Day Disgust! Thanks for providing me the primer on web applications and Ant and for not trying to understand what point I am trying to make here. Yes, we are not dealing with nuclear science here and Yes again wicket is just another web application, Did someone disagree with that. I hope not. Once you are out in the market to try the new webapps then it always makes sense to have people be able to get up and running on the basics w/o efforts and not to have to deal with tricks necessary to get basic app to work. A common expectation is a simple standalone app without Maven/Spring/Hibernate etc unnecessary stuff. Run \\\'ant\\\' on the command line and here u have the war file, now, make a few changes to experiment and then run \\\'ant\\\' again to have modified war. Simple. Obviously the current example is for the comfort of wicket creators and not for the comfort of prospective users and that is the problem here. Any one with basic common sense will get this up and running after a day\\\'s tinkering around, but that can be avoided by adding simple things here in the examples, that is the point I am trying to sell here only if there are buyers out there with open mind. Al Maw wrote: chickabee wrote: Thanks for the great idea. Note that this is displayed fairly prominently on the web site at http://wicket.apache.org under \\\QuickStart\\\. It believe it will be good to put a few of the examples application in their own folders and war files so that they can be studied independently without the clutter of 20 projects. We used to have this, however, grouping all the examples into one project has several big advantages: - Getting all the examples running in your IDE is much easier. - We don\\\'t have ten extra projects to manage the build files for. - We
Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
http://www.boingboing.net/2007/08/20/flowchart-is-it-fcke.html ^ somehow seems appropriate to this thread -igor On 9/8/07, Igor Vaynberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i would if that made any sense... -igor On 08 Sep 2007 22:52:05 +0200 (CEST), Robo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry Igor. I pack wicket app, simple wicket demo app, very well in WAR layout. If I`m not right please point me to point where wicket app border is extending WAR layout border. Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \Igor Vaynberg\ Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 23:36 Predmet: Re: Re: First Day Disgust! what you all seem to not be able to comprehend is that applications DO NOT come in a WAR layout. the war file is packaged together by combining different things from different places, and this is what the build tools are for (whether it be ant or maven). -igor On 08 Sep 2007 22:33:06 +0200 (CEST), Robo wrote: Jesus. Time spended at this endless talk read and write could be spent in writing one simple Demo app. Simple demo app reqest is very legitimate. And my vote is for demo app without Ant, Maven also. Demo App just based supposed basic knowledge of Servlet technologies, or just be familiar with WAR directory layout. Wicket is realy very simple so it would be good if this simplicity would be underscored also by demo app. Maven has its good points and also weak ones. But generaly it is used mostly on company levels and not on the levles of individial newbies. Most of them just know hov to write servlet, JSP and so on. and this I think major part of framework newbies needs to understand strength of wicket. Maven ads some virtual complication to the proces that not many newbies know maven and when seen first time they can be scared of it. So they can back off. IMHO one needs to firstly understand basic concepts, based just on very simple premises like beeign familiar with WAR and t hen this concept could be widened by using maven and point out some benefits of it. Maven + Wicket for firstimers can be simple too much and can leed to presumption that Wicket must be used with Maven. IMHO More didactic way maybe should be. 1. Needed prereq of WAR file layout 2. setup Wicket demo app on this knowledge. 3. Descrivbe what is behind curtain of wicket app on one simple wicket tag decorator. 4. describe how to enhance using Maven. Wicket is framework which is fast learnable and I beleave when getting the point you can write application within just one hour. More didactic aproach to demo could lead to greater adoption As soon as I finish my work of testing some frameworks, this could be within two weeks I can write some demo app with simple explanation taking more didactic aproach :-) just let me know to whom I can send it, and the format of the wiki. Confrontation at this thread is just useless ... Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: chickabee Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 15:06 Predmet: Re: First Day Disgust! Thanks for providing me the primer on web applications and Ant and for not trying to understand what point I am trying to make here. Yes, we are not dealing with nuclear science here and Yes again wicket is just another web application, Did someone disagree with that. I hope not. Once you are out in the market to try the new webapps then it always makes sense to have people be able to get up and running on the basics w/o efforts and not to have to deal with tricks necessary to get basic app to work. A common expectation is a simple standalone app without Maven/Spring/Hibernate etc unnecessary stuff. Run \\\'ant\\\' on the command line and here u have the war file, now, make a few changes to experiment and then run \\\'ant\\\' again to have modified war. Simple. Obviously the current example is for the comfort of wicket creators and not for the comfort of prospective users and that is the problem here. Any one with basic common sense will get this up and running after a day\\\'s tinkering around, but that can be avoided by adding simple things here in the examples, that is the point I am trying to sell here only if there are buyers out there with open mind. Al Maw wrote: chickabee wrote: Thanks for the great idea. Note that this is displayed fairly prominently on the web site at http://wicket.apache.org under \\\QuickStart\\\. It believe it will be good to put a few of the examples application in their own folders and war files so that they can be studied
Re: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
It will Igor, just go on ... Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \Igor Vaynberg\ Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 23:46 Predmet: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust! i would if that made any sense... -igor On 08 Sep 2007 22:52:05 +0200 (CEST), Robo wrote: Sorry Igor. I pack wicket app, simple wicket demo app, very well in WAR layout. If I`m not right please point me to point where wicket app border is extending WAR layout border. Robo __ http://www.tahaj.sk - Stiahnite si najnovsie verzie vasich oblubenych programov - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
May be a little bit of respect and honesty to wicket newcomers, and also understand why there are their needs and be abowe the matter , would help you ... Yet another useless atack ... teacher ... - Originálna Správa - Od: \Igor Vaynberg\ Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 23:49 Predmet: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust! http://www.boingboing.net/2007/08/20/flowchart-is-it-fcke.html ^ somehow seems appropriate to this thread -igor __ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
also, demos come in many fashions, the starter demo for an eclipse user differs from a netbeans user and differs from a maven user or notepad/vi/command line user various demos to serve various build or IDE enviroment. it may not be helpful when a maven only developer is trying to show a NB only developer how to write a demo in wicket or otherwise. IMO links to various build envrioments should be made open and am sure sample demo projects are all over the place On 08 Sep 2007 23:00:32 +0200 (CEST), Robo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It will Igor, just go on ... Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \Igor Vaynberg\ Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 23:46 Predmet: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust! i would if that made any sense... -igor On 08 Sep 2007 22:52:05 +0200 (CEST), Robo wrote: Sorry Igor. I pack wicket app, simple wicket demo app, very well in WAR layout. If I`m not right please point me to point where wicket app border is extending WAR layout border. Robo __ http://www.tahaj.sk - Stiahnite si najnovsie verzie vasich oblubenych programov - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
well thats the thing about maven. it generates setups for different ides. so cd wicket mvn eclipse:eclipse - builds eclipse config mvn idea:idea - builds idea config mvn netbeans:netbeans - builds netbeans config after you do that all thats left is to import the created project into the ide. -igor On 9/8/07, Ayodeji Aladejebi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: also, demos come in many fashions, the starter demo for an eclipse user differs from a netbeans user and differs from a maven user or notepad/vi/command line user various demos to serve various build or IDE enviroment. it may not be helpful when a maven only developer is trying to show a NB only developer how to write a demo in wicket or otherwise. IMO links to various build envrioments should be made open and am sure sample demo projects are all over the place On 08 Sep 2007 23:00:32 +0200 (CEST), Robo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It will Igor, just go on ... Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \Igor Vaynberg\ Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 23:46 Predmet: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust! i would if that made any sense... -igor On 08 Sep 2007 22:52:05 +0200 (CEST), Robo wrote: Sorry Igor. I pack wicket app, simple wicket demo app, very well in WAR layout. If I`m not right please point me to point where wicket app border is extending WAR layout border. Robo __ http://www.tahaj.sk - Stiahnite si najnovsie verzie vasich oblubenych programov - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
if you use netbeans 6 you can just open the maven project without even running that netbeans:netbeans command On 9/9/07, Igor Vaynberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: well thats the thing about maven. it generates setups for different ides. so cd wicket mvn eclipse:eclipse - builds eclipse config mvn idea:idea - builds idea config mvn netbeans:netbeans - builds netbeans config after you do that all thats left is to import the created project into the ide. -igor On 9/8/07, Ayodeji Aladejebi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: also, demos come in many fashions, the starter demo for an eclipse user differs from a netbeans user and differs from a maven user or notepad/vi/command line user various demos to serve various build or IDE enviroment. it may not be helpful when a maven only developer is trying to show a NB only developer how to write a demo in wicket or otherwise. IMO links to various build envrioments should be made open and am sure sample demo projects are all over the place On 08 Sep 2007 23:00:32 +0200 (CEST), Robo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It will Igor, just go on ... Robo - Originálna Správa - Od: \Igor Vaynberg\ Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 23:46 Predmet: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust! i would if that made any sense... -igor On 08 Sep 2007 22:52:05 +0200 (CEST), Robo wrote: Sorry Igor. I pack wicket app, simple wicket demo app, very well in WAR layout. If I`m not right please point me to point where wicket app border is extending WAR layout border. Robo __ http://www.tahaj.sk - Stiahnite si najnovsie verzie vasich oblubenych programov - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.somatik.be Microsoft gives you windows, Linux gives you the whole house. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
i was raised on the principle that respect has to be earned, so far you have only done the opposite. a big part of earning respect is shut up or put up, look into it. as far as honesty, i dont think i have been dishonest with you yet. as far as me attacking you, i think you should grow some thicker skin if you think you are under attack. anyways, i think for a while everything from your address will go into my bitbucket, because at this point i see you as nothing but a drain. good day, -igor On 08 Sep 2007 23:07:35 +0200 (CEST), Robo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: May be a little bit of respect and honesty to wicket newcomers, and also understand why there are their needs and be abowe the matter , would help you ... Yet another useless atack ... teacher ... - Originálna Správa - Od: \Igor Vaynberg\ Komu: Poslaná: 08.09.2007 23:49 Predmet: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust! http://www.boingboing.net/2007/08/20/flowchart-is-it-fcke.html ^ somehow seems appropriate to this thread -igor __ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
On Sat, 2007-09-08 at 23:07 +0200, Robo wrote: May be a little bit of respect and honesty to wicket newcomers, and also understand why there are their needs and be abowe the matter , would help you ... Yet another useless atack ... teacher ... I am not one of the core developers, but have been a member of the wicket community for a long time. I've seen newcomers come and go. First, I'd like to say that this particular newcomer showed very little respect for the developers. The newcomer did not consider the fact that just perhaps the developers knew a tiny bit about what they where doing and that they standardized on maven and the examples layout for a reason. He either did not take the time to read the documentation on the website, or completely misunderstood it. If he did not take the time, then he seems to think that his time is so much more important than theirs that they should code everything up so that it is possible for him to understand how to set up an application in the way that he expects. It doesn't matter much that others understand what we have just fine. It doesn't fit for him, thus it must be broken. If he tried, but did not understand, then why didn't he ask questions about the parts that he didn't understand? Instead, he blasts a lot of criticism over the fence towards the developers that have done a *great* deal of work on a very fine framework. Apparently, people such as he think that the developers' time and effort is limitless and is there to satisfy his own needs. I submit that rather than attacking wicket and the methods of it's developers out of hand, a few well-placed questions surrounding the things that are really giving him trouble would serve him well. Sadly, we can't dump all the knowledge of wicket into someone's head. Any developer wanting to use any framework must invest time into learning how to use it. Wicket is really, really, easy compared to many other frameworks, and IMHO, worth the time and effort. But some effort is required. All the opinions above are my own; not the wicket community, not the developers of wicket. I really, really wish that users of open source software would show more respect to the developers who put so much time and effort into the products that those users use, however. -- Philip A. Chapman Desktop and Web Application Development: Java, .NET, PostgreSQL, MySQL, MSSQL Linux, Windows 2000, Windows XP signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Re: First Day Disgust!
With all due respect: On 9/8/07, Eelco Hillenius [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do note however, that we presume basic knowledge of Java programming ...fair enough... and Java web applications (what is a war, what is a web.xml file). Wicket, being component based, has great appeal for people with non-web GUI experience only. It does not make it your job to introduce them to this technology of course. Gabor - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: First Day Disgust!
do my homework for me now or i will continue mock your miserable web framework! it seems probable that this won't make you many friends. chickabee wrote: Hi Wicketers, I tried wicket today and the example application was up and running on tomcat in no time, so that was the good part, after that if I like to create a sample application on my own then I found no easy way to start. Examples are good to browse through and tell about wicket capabilities, however, not so good from learning point of view, All of the examples are glued together in one big jar file and it is just not quick enough to create a bare-bone application quickly and easily, I tried Quicket as mentioned in the readme file, however, Quickets is nothing but waste of time, because it is glued with Hibernate and Spring and both should not be there to start with. Not a good experience trying wicket so far, I guess it's the time to try out some more simpler app frameworks, -Thumbs Down to Wicket! -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/First-Day-Disgust%21-tf4405663.html#a12576137 Sent from the Wicket - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
