Re: [Vo]:Details of the Thermacore runaway in 1996
This situation seems to be following the theory that the heat is generated throughout the volume of the material while it escapes through the surface area of that mass. Volume varies as the cube of the linear dimension while surface area is proportional to the square. With this thought in mind, adding more of the same material is going to lead to a higher internal temperature as long as a reaction is taking place inside a mass that generates heat. This type of experiment might actually be the best means available to prove that LENR is taking place, assuming the dangers can be overcome. Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l Sent: Fri, May 20, 2016 9:59 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Details of the Thermacore runaway in 1996 H LV wrote: 2.5 lbs of powered nickel offers a great deal of surface area for heat of adsorption. Also the nickel powder had been sitting in a vacuum before the hydrogen gas was added so this would further enhance the adsorption of hydrogen. Yes. This is what I meant by "critical mass issue." Maybe I should call it "critical thermal mass." The large mass may also enhance hydrogen adsorption, as noted. In other words, 100 g of powder might absorb X amount, where 1000 g absorbs more than 10 times X. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Details of the Thermacore runaway in 1996
H LV wrote: 2.5 lbs of powered nickel offers a great deal of surface area for heat of > adsorption. Also the nickel powder had been sitting in a vacuum before the > hydrogen gas was added so this would further enhance the adsorption of > hydrogen. > Yes. This is what I meant by "critical mass issue." Maybe I should call it "critical thermal mass." The large mass may also enhance hydrogen adsorption, as noted. In other words, 100 g of powder might absorb X amount, where 1000 g absorbs more than 10 times X. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Details of the Thermacore runaway in 1996
Jones Beene wrote: > Now that you mention it, and realizing how enticing/dangerous it would be > to a certain segment of the population . . . > We have seen crazy stunts with thermite and other energetic materials on > YouTube. In a worst case, we are talking about something which could be > far more energetic than thermite. Yikes. > Not just a certain segment of the population -- we need to worry about ordinary, timid professors as well. Martin Fleischmann strongly recommended scaling down cold fusion experiments because of incidents like this. However, there may be a problem with scaling down. Perhaps there is some sort of critical mass issue. I do not mean with neutrons the way a critical mass works in a fission reaction. I mean something like the buildup of heat in a large mass of nickel powder. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Details of the Thermacore runaway in 1996
2.5 lbs of powered nickel offers a great deal of surface area for heat of adsorption. Also the nickel powder had been sitting in a vacuum before the hydrogen gas was added so this would further enhance the adsorption of hydrogen. harry On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 3:39 PM, David Roberson wrote: > Jones, > > Is it possible to find another source to back up what you are describing > in this event? A second written record would be fine if available. > > I have not heard of that particular thermal run away reaction that you > have listed below but would find it interesting to follow up on. The > recent negative information that is coming out pertaining to Rossi is > beginning to concern me and your example seems like just the medicine > needed to cure that problem. > > It has been my intent to continuing standing by with an open mind until > the year long test data is released by Rossi or IH and analyzed. This is > not an easy position to maintain at this point with all the negativity > being expressed by Jed and others. > > Thanks, > > Dave > > > -Original Message- > From: Jones Beene > To: vortex-l > Sent: Thu, May 19, 2016 2:09 pm > Subject: [Vo]:Details of the Thermacore runaway in 1996 > > Most observers of the LENR/nickel hydride scene are unaware of the details > of the Thermacore, Inc. runaway reaction back in 1996. > Unfortunately, this was the last effort that this company made in the > field, and the main reason that they dropped LENR. The incident echoes > other thermal runaways, including P&F, Mizuno, Mark Snoswell in Australia > and Ahern. However, it was far more energetic than any of the prior > incidents. > This was to have been an powered experiment but they never had time to > apply input power. This was was a follow-on to a Phase one grant from USAF > (document in LENR-CANR library) and was simply intended to be an analysis > the absorption reaction of a large amount of nickel powder and hydrogen > at modest pressure. Instead, it was likely the most energetic single > event in the history of LENR. > Recently, Brian Ahern has been in contact with Nelson Gernert, the chief > researcher in the new Thermacore (having gone through two changes of > ownership) who was also in charge of the runaway. None of this has > appeared in print before. > Gernert added 2.5 pounds of nickel powder (200 mesh of Ni-200) into a 3 > liter stainless steel Dewar. The Dewar weighed 300 pounds. It was a > strong pressure vessel with a hemispherical volume. Thermacore evacuated > the nickel under vacuum for several days before adding H2 gas at 2 > atmospheres (apparently there was no potassium but this detail needs to > be verified). > The most amazing thing happened next. The powder immediately and spontaneously > heated before external power could be added. The Dewar glowed orange > (800C) and the engineers ran for cover. No external heat had been used > and no radiation monitors were running. The nickel had sintered into a > glob alloyed into the vessel and could not be removed. > The (then) owner of Thermacore, Yale Eastman was frightened that an > explosion was imminent and that someone could be killed. He forbade any > further work on LENR. The incident was not published. > The Dewar was no longer safe as a pressure vessel and they junked it. > They did not measure it for radiation. Superficial thermal analysis - 3 > liters of H2 gas at 2 atmosphere will have a heat of combustion of 74 > kilojoules when combined with oxygen (but there was no oxygen in the > Dewar). > Heating a 300 lb Stainless vessel to 800C requires 21 megajoules. That is > ostensibly 289 times the possible chemical energy! > > Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 10:44:35 -0400 > Subject: Re: MILLS AND THERMACORE > From: *na...@gwu.edu * > To: *ahern_br...@msn.com * > Thanks, Brian. > I will try to get a complete copy. > Dave > On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 10:41 AM, Brian Ahern < > *ahern_br...@msn.com > *> wrote: > aLL MY COPIES LACK PAGE 4. >
Re: [Vo]:Details of the Thermacore runaway in 1996
AFAIK this kind of reaction is regularly observed by accident in various similar situations. ;-) most don't know they see LENR. they just see they have to redo all again. 2016-05-19 22:53 GMT+02:00 Jones Beene : > Dave, > > You are not alone – few know of this incident. But it’s not a sensible > choice to base anything regarding the validity of LENR on Rossi’s > problems with IH. The technology will survive, but Rossi’s lack of > credibility could taint the field and impede progress for years. > > The Thermacore runaway, as impressive as it was, has not previously been > reported. To put it (the runaway) into context, there had already been a > fatality at SRI a few years before (unrelated). It was not known back > then, in the mid-nineties, whether the reaction was safe or not especially > when drastically scaled up (2-3 orders of magnitude). The Thermacore > incident was not reported for any number of legal and liability reasons, not > to mention OSHA - and the project was canceled immediately. > > The Company was only interested in the scale-up potential of it, so it > was nixed. Ahern’s sources of information on this are impeccable. > > BTW – to my knowledge, no one since then has tried an experiment with a > similarly large mass of potentially active material but it could easily > be the case that there is a “critical mass” equivalent, even if that term > is shoehorned into QM (or CQM). > > There are in fact, a number of scientific papers on “entanglement mass” > which would be the corollary. I’m glad they weren’t using deuterium. > > *From:* David Roberson > > Jones, > > > > Is it possible to find another source to back up what you are describing > in this event? A second written record would be fine if available. > > > > I have not heard of that particular thermal run away reaction that you > have listed below but would find it interesting to follow up on. The > recent negative information that is coming out pertaining to Rossi is > beginning to concern me and your example seems like just the medicine > needed to cure that problem. > >
Re: [Vo]:Details of the Thermacore runaway in 1996
Yes, all good reasons to carefully consider the safety of such an experiment. On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 8:52 PM Jones Beene wrote: > Now that you mention it, and realizing how enticing/dangerous it would be > to a certain segment of the population, the hope is that no one gets hurt > trying it. > > We have seen crazy stunts with thermite and other energetic materials on > YouTube. In a worst case, we are talking about something which could be > far more energetic than thermite. Yikes. > > *From:* Jack Cole > > Very interesting account. I have occasionally had the fantasy of > modifying a pressure cooker, adding 10 pounds of nickel powder, and adding > hydrogen (after degassing). > > Most observers of the LENR/nickel hydride scene are unaware of the details > of the Thermacore, Inc. runaway reaction back in 1996. > > Unfortunately, this was the last effort that this company made in the > field, and the main reason that they dropped LENR >
RE: [Vo]:Details of the Thermacore runaway in 1996
Now that you mention it, and realizing how enticing/dangerous it would be to a certain segment of the population, the hope is that no one gets hurt trying it. We have seen crazy stunts with thermite and other energetic materials on YouTube. In a worst case, we are talking about something which could be far more energetic than thermite. Yikes. From: Jack Cole Very interesting account. I have occasionally had the fantasy of modifying a pressure cooker, adding 10 pounds of nickel powder, and adding hydrogen (after degassing). Most observers of the LENR/nickel hydride scene are unaware of the details of the Thermacore, Inc. runaway reaction back in 1996. Unfortunately, this was the last effort that this company made in the field, and the main reason that they dropped LENR
Re: [Vo]:Details of the Thermacore runaway in 1996
Jones, Very interesting account. I have occasionally had the fantasy of modifying a pressure cooker, adding 10 pounds of nickel powder, and adding hydrogen (after degassing). On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 1:09 PM Jones Beene wrote: > Most observers of the LENR/nickel hydride scene are unaware of the details > of the Thermacore, Inc. runaway reaction back in 1996. > > Unfortunately, this was the last effort that this company made in the > field, and the main reason that they dropped LENR. The incident echoes > other thermal runaways, including P&F, Mizuno, Mark Snoswell in Australia > and Ahern. However, it was far more energetic than any of the prior > incidents. > > > >
Re: [Vo]:Details of the Thermacore runaway in 1996
Wow so this triggered at room temperature? I wish we new more about this test and its products, especially with the hindsight of all that's been learnt in the 20 years since. It's an interesting topic much needed now. I miss reading these scientific discussions on vortex-l. Has any one tried to repeat the test? Maybe in a more controlled and safe environment? > On 19 mei 2016, at 20:09, Jones Beene wrote: > > Most observers of the LENR/nickel hydride scene are unaware of the details of > the Thermacore, Inc. runaway reaction back in 1996. > > Unfortunately, this was the last effort that this company made in the field, > and the main reason that they dropped LENR. The incident echoes other thermal > runaways, including P&F, Mizuno, Mark Snoswell in Australia and Ahern. > However, it was far more energetic than any of the prior incidents. > > This was to have been an powered experiment but they never had time to apply > input power. This was was a follow-on to a Phase one grant from USAF > (document in LENR-CANR library) and was simply intended to be an analysis the > absorption reaction of a large amount of nickel powder and hydrogen at modest > pressure. Instead, it was likely the most energetic single event in the > history of LENR. > > Recently, Brian Ahern has been in contact with Nelson Gernert, the chief > researcher in the new Thermacore (having gone through two changes of > ownership) who was also in charge of the runaway. None of this has appeared > in print before. > > Gernert added 2.5 pounds of nickel powder (200 mesh of Ni-200) into a 3 liter > stainless steel Dewar. The Dewar weighed 300 pounds. It was a strong > pressure vessel with a hemispherical volume. Thermacore evacuated the nickel > under vacuum for several days before adding H2 gas at 2 atmospheres > (apparently there was no potassium but this detail needs to be verified). > > > The most amazing thing happened next. The powder immediately and > spontaneously heated before external power could be added. The Dewar glowed > orange (800C) and the engineers ran for cover. No external heat had been used > and no radiation monitors were running. The nickel had sintered into a glob > alloyed into the vessel and could not be removed. > > > The (then) owner of Thermacore, Yale Eastman was frightened that an explosion > was imminent and that someone could be killed. He forbade any further work on > LENR. The incident was not published. > > The Dewar was no longer safe as a pressure vessel and they junked it. They > did not measure it for radiation. Superficial thermal analysis - 3 liters of > H2 gas at 2 atmosphere will have a heat of combustion of 74 kilojoules when > combined with oxygen (but there was no oxygen in the Dewar). > > > Heating a 300 lb Stainless vessel to 800C requires 21 megajoules. That is > ostensibly 289 times the possible chemical energy! > > > > > > > Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 10:44:35 -0400 > Subject: Re: MILLS AND THERMACORE > From: na...@gwu.edu > To: ahern_br...@msn.com > > Thanks, Brian. > > I will try to get a complete copy. > > Dave > > > On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 10:41 AM, Brian Ahern wrote: > > aLL MY COPIES LACK PAGE 4. >
Re: [Vo]:Details of the Thermacore runaway in 1996
Jones Beene wrote: > You are not alone – few know of this incident. But it’s not a sensible > choice to base anything regarding the validity of LENR on Rossi’s > problems with IH. > Yes, there is hardly any connection. To put it (the runaway) into context, there had already been a fatality at > SRI a few years before (unrelated). > This was entirely explained by chemistry. The cause was never a mystery. It was caused by a terrible failure of several safety mechanisms at the same time. See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/IkegamiHthirdinter.pdf#page=147 - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Details of the Thermacore runaway in 1996
Details of the Thermacore runaway in 1996Jones etal-- Also most observers of the LENR scene are unaware of the details of a British 1956 patent describing what may be a LENR. Hank Mills has written a good summary of the invention on E Cat World I believe. It got by me as a reactor designer in the early 1960’s http://www.lookingforheat.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/A-new-apparatus-for-producing-an-electric-current.pdf Bob Cook From: Jones Beene Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2016 11:08 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:Details of the Thermacore runaway in 1996 Most observers of the LENR/nickel hydride scene are unaware of the details of the Thermacore, Inc. runaway reaction back in 1996. Unfortunately, this was the last effort that this company made in the field, and the main reason that they dropped LENR. The incident echoes other thermal runaways, including P&F, Mizuno, Mark Snoswell in Australia and Ahern. However, it was far more energetic than any of the prior incidents. This was to have been an powered experiment but they never had time to apply input power. This was was a follow-on to a Phase one grant from USAF (document in LENR-CANR library) and was simply intended to be an analysis the absorption reaction of a large amount of nickel powder and hydrogen at modest pressure. Instead, it was likely the most energetic single event in the history of LENR. Recently, Brian Ahern has been in contact with Nelson Gernert, the chief researcher in the new Thermacore (having gone through two changes of ownership) who was also in charge of the runaway. None of this has appeared in print before. Gernert added 2.5 pounds of nickel powder (200 mesh of Ni-200) into a 3 liter stainless steel Dewar. The Dewar weighed 300 pounds. It was a strong pressure vessel with a hemispherical volume. Thermacore evacuated the nickel under vacuum for several days before adding H2 gas at 2 atmospheres (apparently there was no potassium but this detail needs to be verified). The most amazing thing happened next. The powder immediately and spontaneously heated before external power could be added. The Dewar glowed orange (800C) and the engineers ran for cover. No external heat had been used and no radiation monitors were running. The nickel had sintered into a glob alloyed into the vessel and could not be removed. The (then) owner of Thermacore, Yale Eastman was frightened that an explosion was imminent and that someone could be killed. He forbade any further work on LENR. The incident was not published. The Dewar was no longer safe as a pressure vessel and they junked it. They did not measure it for radiation. Superficial thermal analysis - 3 liters of H2 gas at 2 atmosphere will have a heat of combustion of 74 kilojoules when combined with oxygen (but there was no oxygen in the Dewar). Heating a 300 lb Stainless vessel to 800C requires 21 megajoules. That is ostensibly 289 times the possible chemical energy!
RE: [Vo]:Details of the Thermacore runaway in 1996
Dave, You are not alone – few know of this incident. But it’s not a sensible choice to base anything regarding the validity of LENR on Rossi’s problems with IH. The technology will survive, but Rossi’s lack of credibility could taint the field and impede progress for years. The Thermacore runaway, as impressive as it was, has not previously been reported. To put it (the runaway) into context, there had already been a fatality at SRI a few years before (unrelated). It was not known back then, in the mid-nineties, whether the reaction was safe or not especially when drastically scaled up (2-3 orders of magnitude). The Thermacore incident was not reported for any number of legal and liability reasons, not to mention OSHA - and the project was canceled immediately. The Company was only interested in the scale-up potential of it, so it was nixed. Ahern’s sources of information on this are impeccable. BTW – to my knowledge, no one since then has tried an experiment with a similarly large mass of potentially active material but it could easily be the case that there is a “critical mass” equivalent, even if that term is shoehorned into QM (or CQM). There are in fact, a number of scientific papers on “entanglement mass” which would be the corollary. I’m glad they weren’t using deuterium. From: David Roberson Jones, Is it possible to find another source to back up what you are describing in this event? A second written record would be fine if available. I have not heard of that particular thermal run away reaction that you have listed below but would find it interesting to follow up on. The recent negative information that is coming out pertaining to Rossi is beginning to concern me and your example seems like just the medicine needed to cure that problem.
Re: [Vo]:Details of the Thermacore runaway in 1996
David Roberson wrote: I have not heard of that particular thermal run away reaction that you have > listed below but would find it interesting to follow up on. > I heard about it from Gene Mallove, but no details were forthcoming. It is tragic that they did not follow up on it. They lost their nerve. That's understandable, but this is the most important discovery in the history of technology, so they should have done something to pursue it. Perhaps bring in a National Lab or try again on a smaller scale. Abandoning it like that was tragic. This is one of the many failures to follow up in the history of cold fusion. > The recent negative information that is coming out pertaining to Rossi is > beginning to concern me and your example seems like just the medicine > needed to cure that problem. > This event has no bearing on Rossi. Thermacore is an excellent company. Their presentation at MIT and their papers are far more informative than anything Rossi ever published. I do not see how a credible experiment from Thermacore enhances Rossi. This also does not detract from Srinivasan and others who were not able to produce heat with Ni-H systems. I will grant that a positive result in one lab does add credibility to the report of a positive lab from another lab done with similar techniques and materials. That is why I gave Rossi the benefit of the doubt despite his dubious methods. I knew there were other positive reports of Ni-H heat, although they are sporadic and poorly documented compared to Pd-D. But the benefit of the doubt can only go so far. In the end, a researcher has to present a coherent report to be believed. Rossi said he did not want to be believed. He said the proof would come with a commercial device. I think that is a fair standard. He has every right to keep secrets from the public. So I stopped paying attention to him. I did not think much about him until I.H. announced on March 10 that they disagreed with his analysis. He did not have to convince the public but he *did* have a contractual obligation to convince I.H. He failed. That's bad news! - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Details of the Thermacore runaway in 1996
Jones, Is it possible to find another source to back up what you are describing in this event? A second written record would be fine if available. I have not heard of that particular thermal run away reaction that you have listed below but would find it interesting to follow up on. The recent negative information that is coming out pertaining to Rossi is beginning to concern me and your example seems like just the medicine needed to cure that problem. It has been my intent to continuing standing by with an open mind until the year long test data is released by Rossi or IH and analyzed. This is not an easy position to maintain at this point with all the negativity being expressed by Jed and others. Thanks, Dave -Original Message- From: Jones Beene To: vortex-l Sent: Thu, May 19, 2016 2:09 pm Subject: [Vo]:Details of the Thermacore runaway in 1996 Most observers of the LENR/nickel hydride scene are unaware of the details of the Thermacore, Inc. runaway reaction back in 1996. Unfortunately, this was the last effort that this company made in the field, and the main reason that they dropped LENR. The incident echoes other thermal runaways, including P&F, Mizuno, Mark Snoswell in Australia and Ahern. However, it was far more energetic than any of the prior incidents. This was to have been an powered experiment but they never had time to apply input power. This was was a follow-on to a Phase one grant from USAF (document in LENR-CANR library) and was simply intended to be an analysis the absorption reaction of a large amount of nickel powder and hydrogen at modest pressure. Instead, it was likely the most energetic single event in the history of LENR. Recently, Brian Ahern has been in contact with Nelson Gernert, the chief researcher in the new Thermacore (having gone through two changes of ownership) who was also in charge of the runaway. None of this has appeared in print before. Gernert added 2.5 pounds of nickel powder (200 mesh of Ni-200) into a 3 liter stainless steel Dewar. The Dewar weighed 300 pounds. It was a strong pressure vessel with a hemispherical volume. Thermacore evacuated the nickel under vacuum for several days before adding H2 gas at 2 atmospheres (apparently there was no potassium but this detail needs to be verified). The most amazing thing happened next. The powder immediately and spontaneously heated before external power could be added. The Dewar glowed orange (800C) and the engineers ran for cover. No external heat had been used and no radiation monitors were running. The nickel had sintered into a glob alloyed into the vessel and could not be removed. The (then) owner of Thermacore, Yale Eastman was frightened that an explosion was imminent and that someone could be killed. He forbade any further work on LENR. The incident was not published. The Dewar was no longer safe as a pressure vessel and they junked it. They did not measure it for radiation. Superficial thermal analysis - 3 liters of H2 gas at 2 atmosphere will have a heat of combustion of 74 kilojoules when combined with oxygen (but there was no oxygen in the Dewar). Heating a 300 lb Stainless vessel to 800C requires 21 megajoules. That is ostensibly 289 times the possible chemical energy! Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 10:44:35 -0400 Subject: Re: MILLS AND THERMACORE From: na...@gwu.edu To: ahern_br...@msn.com Thanks, Brian. I will try to get a complete copy. Dave On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 10:41 AM, Brian Ahern wrote: aLL MY COPIES LACK PAGE 4.