RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
Shoot! I have to respond to this. NOONE, PLEASE CHECK YOUR PERSONAL RETURN EMAIL SETTINGS WHEN YOU RESPOND TO POSTS IN VORTEX-L. EVERYONE WHO ATTEMPTS TO RESPOND TO YOUR VORTEX POSTS ARE CONSTANTLY IN DANGER OF SENDING EMAIL TO YOUR PERSONAL EMAIL ACCOUNT, NOT TO VORTEX-L. WE HAVE TO MANUALLY OVERIDE YOUR CURRENT REPLY SETTINGS. PLEASE FIX THIS! I realize we are speaking hypothetically here. I also realize I'm speaking to the equivalent of a brick wall. But alas, that is the cross I must bear. The fact is if I was in a situation where I was an inventor and my technology was stolen, money would be the last thing on my mind. If I was forced to accept money, I would work with lawyers to try and find the best way to use it against the company that stole my technology. I would not care how much I had to benefit, or the world had to benefit. So, what this all really boils down to is the fact that it's about your rights and your principals. This concept you've come up with concerning your rights and principals are so important to you that you really don't give a crap what happens to the world - just as long as you don't end up prostituting your rights and principles. Well, I can appreciate your principals, but only to a certain extent... The rest of it just turns into a horrible Greek tragedy. I am in the real world. I realize I am not a law expert, but at the same time I know what is right and what is wrong. If I had a technology that was stolen, I would simply strive to do anything and everything to prevent the other company from being able to use my technology. I might fail, and they might be allowed to sell the technology. But I would do everything (that is peaceful and non-violent) to hinder that company for the rest of my life. Hopefully, I would at least slow down the proliferation of the stolen technology. In other words, your rights' and principals are so important to you that you really don't give a crap what happens to the world for which you and the rest of us live in, as you go about defending your rights and principals. If your peaceful attempts to hinder the manufacture of something that would benefit the world are realized, you don't consider how potentially violent that could turn out to be for everyone being prevented from benefiting from the invention? I wonder what Jesus would have to say about that? Sadly, you and others seem to think the needs of the many are more important than the rights of the individual. That is how our sickening world works these days (for the most part). However, I hope that will change in the future. The rights of the individual must be protected at all cost, because otherwise life becomes meaningless. If I do not have my rights and freedoms protected, I might as well not be alive. If I had an amazing invention that I knew would benefit the world, I most certainly would want to profit from it. As much as I could! However, I hope I would also weigh my own personal individual rights principals with the rights principals of the rest of the world. I'm not the only person on this planet who has rights and principals that need to be respected, you know. If someone stole my money making invention, I'd go to court, just as you would. However, in my case if it was becoming clear to me that it would be unlikely that I'd get my invention back I would seek to get the matter settled through some kind of a financial compensation / arrangement. Since it is likely that I would have sufficient evidence to prove that I deserve SOME kind of compensation for my contribution to society, I suspect a financial arrangement would eventually be worked out. Why would I want to, as you seem to want to do, spend the rest of my life trying to turn the life of my competitor enemy into what I hope will be a bloody living hell for the rest of his life...all on principal of protecting my personal rights? Quite frankly, I think you are so worried about not having any principals or rights at all in which to hang your hat on that you are willing to sacrifice the rights and principals of rest of the world, just so you can prove to yourself that you actually DO have rights and principals that you stand by. Have you so little sense of self-confidence in yourself that this is the only kind of self-destructive action you can conjure up - all in the name of proving to yourself that you do have rights and principals? Again, what would Jesus have to say about that? What would Jesus have to say about focusing all of your actions on the need to protect your own rights to such a maniacal degree that it ends up trashing the rights of your neighbor. Alas, I realize this response of mine is futile. Talking to noone noone about rights is like talking to a brick wall. All I can say is that I sure don't want to live by noone's principals. By my religion that would result in WAY TOO much bad karma that would likely take me several
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
Please take this to vortexb.
RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
Noone^2 wrote: I not a very jovial person. Yaaa think? J Whatever the baggage you're carrying around with you, don't you think it's time to let it go? It does nothing by make one's life miserable and full of drama. -m
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
But whose technology are they going to be testing? Possibility #1 -- Their own tech they developed from scratch. (THIS WOULD BE WORTH CELEBRATING!) Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.) Possibility #3 -- Their own technology derived from information gathered about the E-Cat they were not supposed to have, that may have been acquired without Rossi's permission. (This would still be a horrible tragedy.) If number one is the case, I will be eager to find out the results of the testing. I will also celebrate if the results are positive. If number two or three is the case, I hope that Rossi is prepared to defend his intellectual property. From: Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 11:34 PM Subject: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time I thought I'd bring the discussion back on topic a little bit. Not too long before the testing starts. It is now the day of the test and if the Hyperion performs as claimed, it is the moment society has needed for a long time. We probably won't get very good results at least for a few days, but hopefully we get positive news very soon.
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
Recognition is not the issue here. The issue is property rights. Even if Apple, Google, and Microsoft get away with stealing other companies technologies (or having to pay a fine) it is not OK. If a company is found to be using another company's tech without permission, the offending company should not be allowed to sell products using the tech. We do not know if Defkalion is using Rossi's tech (or tech directly inspired by the E-Cat) or not. But if they are, I hope Rossi will do everything legal and lawful in his power to stop them. If they are using an original technology, then I hope they sell a billion Hyperions. From: Chemical Engineer cheme...@gmail.com To: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 5:50 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time If the devices work, I think all options are OK. Apple, Google, Microsoft and others are in patent wars all the time. It's just business. Who knows, the IP rights may have already expired on some of this stuff anyway. Rossi will get his recognition as one of the early inventors/developers and the lawyers will get their fees! On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 4:31 AM, noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: But whose technology are they going to be testing? Possibility #1 -- Their own tech they developed from scratch. (THIS WOULD BE WORTH CELEBRATING!) Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.) Possibility #3 -- Their own technology derived from information gathered about the E-Cat they were not supposed to have, that may have been acquired without Rossi's permission. (This would still be a horrible tragedy.) If number one is the case, I will be eager to find out the results of the testing. I will also celebrate if the results are positive. If number two or three is the case, I hope that Rossi is prepared to defend his intellectual property. From: Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 11:34 PM Subject: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time I thought I'd bring the discussion back on topic a little bit. Not too long before the testing starts. It is now the day of the test and if the Hyperion performs as claimed, it is the moment society has needed for a long time. We probably won't get very good results at least for a few days, but hopefully we get positive news very soon.
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
The big issue here is the catalysts and special preparation of the nickel powders (enrichment with certain isotopes). If they are using his catalyst or developed a catalyst of their own by examining the catalysts of the E-Cat when they were not supposed to do so, I think that is unethical. Also, he claims that his enrichment methods are proprietary. Even if they avoided making a copy by having access to his catalyst when they were not allowed to do so, they are still in the wrong. The way I see it, if they ever gained access to Rossi's IP without permission and used it in the development of their technology, their technology is not original. The only way for their technology to be one hundred percent original is if they never gained any information about the E-Cat without permission, or if they did, used engineers to develop the Hyperion that were never given access to that information. In addition, Andrea Rossi has stated that he regularly produces 1600C inside the reactor cores. The units that he is building for home use and in one megawatt plants will probably have lower internal temperatures, for stability. The ECat can produce high temperatures, but the problem is at high temperatures the system can go unstable, and melt the nickel powder. They may or may not be ahead of Rossi. They have not allowed a single test so far. It is possible they are ahead of the ECat, but we need test data to find out. From: Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com To: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:35 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time from the data they give : the H2 pressure is higher (50bars) no radiofrequency capacity to work much above 400C (600C,900C) many catalyst tested much better control (by pulse modulation), perfect stability. it seems that they simply reinvent it from the asic Ni+H idea, probably using public data, and maybe sobt hint from what they see, to avoid copying or where to look at... if they are serious they use what they know about e-cat not to copy it. clearly they are much ahead, even compare to new rossi data... 2012/2/24 noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com But whose technology are they going to be testing? Possibility #1 -- Their own tech they developed from scratch. (THIS WOULD BE WORTH CELEBRATING!) Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.) Possibility #3 -- Their own technology derived from information gathered about the E-Cat they were not supposed to have, that may have been acquired without Rossi's permission. (This would still be a horrible tragedy.) If number one is the case, I will be eager to find out the results of the testing. I will also celebrate if the results are positive. If number two or three is the case, I hope that Rossi is prepared to defend his intellectual property. From: Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 11:34 PM Subject: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time I thought I'd bring the discussion back on topic a little bit. Not too long before the testing starts. It is now the day of the test and if the Hyperion performs as claimed, it is the moment society has needed for a long time. We probably won't get very good results at least for a few days, but hopefully we get positive news very soon.
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
2 and 3 would be a tragedy, because it would mean the Hyperion is not original. It could also mean that they are using Rossi's IP without permission. I hope Defkalion's technology is original. It very well may be. But if it is not, it is a shame that they did not simply pay Rossi earlier in 2011 so they could continue working together. Instead, if 2 or 3 is true, Rossi may be able to use legal means to stop them from using the tech without permission. I am really hoping the Defkalion technology is original and works exactly as they claim. If that is the case, it is a huge breakthrough that will change the world. From: Charly Sistovaris charlysi...@gmail.com To: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:45 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time #1 I doubt it #2 #3 the only tragedy is if ecat's a hoax... On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 10:31 AM, noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: But whose technology are they going to be testing? Possibility #1 -- Their own tech they developed from scratch. (THIS WOULD BE WORTH CELEBRATING!) Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.) Possibility #3 -- Their own technology derived from information gathered about the E-Cat they were not supposed to have, that may have been acquired without Rossi's permission. (This would still be a horrible tragedy.) If number one is the case, I will be eager to find out the results of the testing. I will also celebrate if the results are positive. If number two or three is the case, I hope that Rossi is prepared to defend his intellectual property. From: Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 11:34 PM Subject: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time I thought I'd bring the discussion back on topic a little bit. Not too long before the testing starts. It is now the day of the test and if the Hyperion performs as claimed, it is the moment society has needed for a long time. We probably won't get very good results at least for a few days, but hopefully we get positive news very soon.
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
The way i see it (thanks to Jed) the first paper about Ni-H goes back to 1979, and the first Focardi paper about Ni-H was published in 1994. Now, as far as i know, Defkalion has not sold any Hyperion yet. But if the tests are conclusive the most important result will be that all doubts about the technology will be lifted. It does not matter who runs the test at all. Later on, IP issues can be solved in court or by contract, if needed.
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
I wonder where the test protocols are... It's by now nearly 16:00 in Athens, so when do the tests start? The protocols should be published before the tests begin AFAIK. The way i see it (thanks to Jed) the first paper about Ni-H goes back to 1979, and the first Focardi paper about Ni-H was published in 1994. Now, as far as i know, Defkalion has not sold any Hyperion yet. But if the tests are conclusive the most important result will be that all doubts about the technology will be lifted. It does not matter who runs the test at all. Later on, IP issues can be solved in court or by contract, if needed.
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.) Nonsense. Companies use technology all the time without permission. This would not be a horrible tragedy; it would be an economic windfall for a bunch of lawyers. There would be negotiations and possibly trials. Eventually Defkalion would pay Rossi a large sum of money, the way they originally intended to do. In situations like this, sales continue normally while the lawyers battled it out. People buying the equipment would never know there is a legal battle going on unless they read the business section of the newspapers. All important technology always escapes from the inventor. That is why we have patents. If there is a problem here, it is because either the Patent Office has failed to do their job, or Rossi has not submitted a properly written patent. His previous patents looked invalid to me. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
maybe they change their idea, under the demand of the tester, to avoid the crazy behavior of fans and pathoskeptics. also maybe the testers don't wan't to be identified before the test succeed to avoid looking ridiculous... cold fusion is really frightening for corp and officials... I feel like a kid waiting for santa klaus in front of the chimney. 2012/2/24 Wolf Fischer wolffisc...@gmx.de I wonder where the test protocols are... It's by now nearly 16:00 in Athens, so when do the tests start? The protocols should be published before the tests begin AFAIK. The way i see it (thanks to Jed) the first paper about Ni-H goes back to 1979, and the first Focardi paper about Ni-H was published in 1994. Now, as far as i know, Defkalion has not sold any Hyperion yet. But if the tests are conclusive the most important result will be that all doubts about the technology will be lifted. It does not matter who runs the test at all. Later on, IP issues can be solved in court or by contract, if needed.
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
Hm wouldn't it be better if they would announce such a change? Now i am sitting here and constantly hitting F5 on my keyboard with the opened Defkalion site in front of me ;) maybe they change their idea, under the demand of the tester, to avoid the crazy behavior of fans and pathoskeptics. also maybe the testers don't wan't to be identified before the test succeed to avoid looking ridiculous... cold fusion is really frightening for corp and officials... I feel like a kid waiting for santa klaus in front of the chimney. 2012/2/24 Wolf Fischer wolffisc...@gmx.de mailto:wolffisc...@gmx.de I wonder where the test protocols are... It's by now nearly 16:00 in Athens, so when do the tests start? The protocols should be published before the tests begin AFAIK. The way i see it (thanks to Jed) the first paper about Ni-H goes back to 1979, and the first Focardi paper about Ni-H was published in 1994. Now, as far as i know, Defkalion has not sold any Hyperion yet. But if the tests are conclusive the most important result will be that all doubts about the technology will be lifted. It does not matter who runs the test at all. Later on, IP issues can be solved in court or by contract, if needed.
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
From Jed, noone noone wrote: Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.) Nonsense. I agree, What well-known company has not filed suit against a potential competitor for daring to kick the tires of their product. Think of Apple. Meanwhile, it's business as usual. Or as Trump would say, it's just business. Meanwhile, nobody wants sales to stop. Cessation of sales would translate to no more money that could be awarded to the injured party! If DGT ends up whipping Rossi's ass, hopefully the inventor will end up with a reasonably satisfactory out-of-court consolation prize. ...A reasonable sum, perhaps amounting to several hundred million Euros - for pain and suffering. We'll see. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
It's just b'ness. Leave tragedy to the novels. On Friday, February 24, 2012, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: From Jed, noone noone wrote: Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.) Nonsense. I agree, What well-known company has not filed suit against a potential competitor for daring to kick the tires of their product. Think of Apple. Meanwhile, it's business as usual. Or as Trump would say, it's just business. Meanwhile, nobody wants sales to stop. Cessation of sales would translate to no more money that could be awarded to the injured party! If DGT ends up whipping Rossi's ass, hopefully the inventor will end up with a reasonably satisfactory out-of-court consolation prize. ...A reasonable sum, perhaps amounting to several hundred million Euros - for pain and suffering. We'll see. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
Indeed Jed, I found this somewhat hilarious, that people (e.g. Noone noone) are accusing Defkalion about IP-theft. I have previously stated, that current patent legislation is outdated, because the benefit of IP-rights cannot even remotely offset, the cost of lawyers and bureaucracy involved in both public sector and private sector. This is especially true in medical sector where patentability is grossly abused in order to accumulate capital and suppressing competition. If Alex's story is true how they acquired the composition of catalyst, then Rossi willingly gave and showed the formula to Defkalion. It is not Defkalion's duty to close their eyes if Rossi is showing his technology. However, I somewhat doubt that and if Defkalion has something, they figured it out independently ― perhaps on a basis of minor hints. Also as Jed stated, it is purely Rossi's own fault if he did not do proper patenting of his technology. I have some doubts that patenting cold fusion phenomena as such is not going to give sufficient IP protection. Also my guess is that Rossi has serious problems of making his cold fusion technology commercially viable. Thus he is probably delaying that his 'letting customers decide' -approach several years. Therefore, I would say that it is great service to humanity, if Defkalion has 'stolen' and then improved his technology to be commercially viable. Someone should have 'stolen' Rossi's cold fusion technology back in 2008! Also I find it hilarious, that Defkalion is accused about theft only because he stole something from Rossi that did not work (low COP and great instability), but made it working technology (high COP and great temperature and stability). I cannot comprehend that it could be the same technology, if Defkalion's technology is claimed to work where as Rossi's ecat technology is claimed to not work commercially viable manner. Of course main problem we have here that, there are too many of those, who are claiming things... But as I have been negative towards Defkalion, they can earn my trust, if they are really going to do what they have been claiming. These tests would be first concrete step forwards taken by Defkalion. ―Jouni Sent from my iPad On 24 Feb 2012, at 16:53, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.) Nonsense. Companies use technology all the time without permission. This would not be a horrible tragedy; it would be an economic windfall for a bunch of lawyers. There would be negotiations and possibly trials. Eventually Defkalion would pay Rossi a large sum of money, the way they originally intended to do. In situations like this, sales continue normally while the lawyers battled it out. People buying the equipment would never know there is a legal battle going on unless they read the business section of the newspapers. All important technology always escapes from the inventor. That is why we have patents. If there is a problem here, it is because either the Patent Office has failed to do their job, or Rossi has not submitted a properly written patent. His previous patents looked invalid to me. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
If I invented a billion dollar technology and someone copied it without my permission, I would not accept a trillion dollars from a lawsuit. The only thing I would accept is for the other company to be forced to re-call all their products. Then I would make money by selling the products from my own company. If Rossi's technology has been stolen, I hope he refuses any credit, money, or other compensation. I would also hope he would turn down the nobel prize. I hope his mission in life becomes to stop anyone who has used his technology without permission. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.) Nonsense. Companies use technology all the time without permission. This would not be a horrible tragedy; it would be an economic windfall for a bunch of lawyers. There would be negotiations and possibly trials. Eventually Defkalion would pay Rossi a large sum of money, the way they originally intended to do. In situations like this, sales continue normally while the lawyers battled it out. People buying the equipment would never know there is a legal battle going on unless they read the business section of the newspapers. All important technology always escapes from the inventor. That is why we have patents. If there is a problem here, it is because either the Patent Office has failed to do their job, or Rossi has not submitted a properly written patent. His previous patents looked invalid to me. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
A principled inventor would not accept a penny in damages in exchange for the other company to continue selling the products. A principled inventor would demand that the other company re-call their products, and be forced to STOP SELLING THEM. If I was an injured inventor, I would want sales to stop immediately. I would want them to stop so I could sell the products from my company, or from officially licensed parties. The lure of a hundred billion dollars would not be enough to make me sacrifice my principles. If Rossi has had his technology stolen or has his technology stolen in the future (I do not know if it has happened or will happen) then I hope he does not receive the Noble Prize, or any payments from those who have copied his technology. I would hope for one thing, that the companies who have copied his technology are forced to recall any products they have sold, and stop selling any more. If I was an inventor who had my tech stolen by Microsoft or Apple, I would demand the same thing. Even if it meant every single iPAD or iPhone that used my technology being taken off the market. If it bankrupts the other company having to pay back all their customers, so be it. From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 10:08 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time From Jed, noone noone wrote: Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.) Nonsense. I agree, What well-known company has not filed suit against a potential competitor for daring to kick the tires of their product. Think of Apple. Meanwhile, it's business as usual. Or as Trump would say, it's just business. Meanwhile, nobody wants sales to stop. Cessation of sales would translate to no more money that could be awarded to the injured party! If DGT ends up whipping Rossi's ass, hopefully the inventor will end up with a reasonably satisfactory out-of-court consolation prize. ...A reasonable sum, perhaps amounting to several hundred million Euros - for pain and suffering. We'll see. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
That's not going to happen. Almost everyone who has made a lot of money off of new technology has stolen it from someone else. If Rossi really does have something, I hope he does get the money and fame he deserves, but I'm much more concerned about getting this product out to the public as soon as possible, and I'm not willing to wait for Rossi so he can make money. On Feb 24, 2012, at 11:55 AM, noone noone wrote: If I invented a billion dollar technology and someone copied it without my permission, I would not accept a trillion dollars from a lawsuit. The only thing I would accept is for the other company to be forced to re-call all their products. Then I would make money by selling the products from my own company. If Rossi's technology has been stolen, I hope he refuses any credit, money, or other compensation. I would also hope he would turn down the nobel prize. I hope his mission in life becomes to stop anyone who has used his technology without permission. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.) Nonsense. Companies use technology all the time without permission. This would not be a horrible tragedy; it would be an economic windfall for a bunch of lawyers. There would be negotiations and possibly trials. Eventually Defkalion would pay Rossi a large sum of money, the way they originally intended to do. In situations like this, sales continue normally while the lawyers battled it out. People buying the equipment would never know there is a legal battle going on unless they read the business section of the newspapers. All important technology always escapes from the inventor. That is why we have patents. If there is a problem here, it is because either the Patent Office has failed to do their job, or Rossi has not submitted a properly written patent. His previous patents looked invalid to me. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
For the record, I do not know if Defkalion is using a copy of Rossi's technology (or a technology developed after obtaining Rossi's IP without permission) or not. I do not know what the truth is about the situation. However, I find the comments from yourself and others who seem not to care about property rights very troublesome. All it seems some people care about is this technology getting out there regardless if theft has taken place. A world that allows theft to take place for the good of masses is not a world that I would want to live in. It would be a socialist, big government nightmare in which the individuals rights are sacrificed for the good of the many. I want cold fusion and other exotic technologies to change the world. I want it to save lives. But not at the cost of the inventors property rights! Again, money is not the issue here. If I were Rossi, money is not what would matter to me. I would turn down any dime of compensation. I would throw the Noble Prize on the ground and spit on it. I would only be satisfied if other companies that were copying my tech were forced to stop doing so. From: Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com To: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 1:07 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time That's not going to happen. Almost everyone who has made a lot of money off of new technology has stolen it from someone else. If Rossi really does have something, I hope he does get the money and fame he deserves, but I'm much more concerned about getting this product out to the public as soon as possible, and I'm not willing to wait for Rossi so he can make money. On Feb 24, 2012, at 11:55 AM, noone noone wrote: If I invented a billion dollar technology and someone copied it without my permission, I would not accept a trillion dollars from a lawsuit. The only thing I would accept is for the other company to be forced to re-call all their products. Then I would make money by selling the products from my own company. If Rossi's technology has been stolen, I hope he refuses any credit, money, or other compensation. I would also hope he would turn down the nobel prize. I hope his mission in life becomes to stop anyone who has used his technology without permission. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.) Nonsense. Companies use technology all the time without permission. This would not be a horrible tragedy; it would be an economic windfall for a bunch of lawyers. There would be negotiations and possibly trials. Eventually Defkalion would pay Rossi a large sum of money, the way they originally intended to do. In situations like this, sales continue normally while the lawyers battled it out. People buying the equipment would never know there is a legal battle going on unless they read the business section of the newspapers. All important technology always escapes from the inventor. That is why we have patents. If there is a problem here, it is because either the Patent Office has failed to do their job, or Rossi has not submitted a properly written patent. His previous patents looked invalid to me. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
noone noone sez: If I invented a billion dollar technology and someone copied it without my permission, I would not accept a trillion dollars from a lawsuit. The only thing I would accept is for the other company to be forced to re-call all their products. Then I would make money by selling the products from my own company. Good luck. You give me the impression that you think you can go to court and win your case in a just few weeks, and then everything will be honky dorey. Think again. Think years. Many, many years. And during all those contentious years of unending litigation that will make many a lawyer rich, and while you are demanding all those recalls, and to a complete halt to sales, just think of all the good PR you will be generating for yourself. People across the planet are desperate for any kind of cheaper energy. But your sense of demanding justice could end up potentially denying a huge portion of the population that opportunity - all on personal principle. I'm sure they will all understand your personal sense of outrage for not getting even richer off of your invention. But of course you'll be right. You have that going for you. Don't get me wrong. I would be pissed off, too, if someone stole my invention. But consider the ramifications of how best to get even with the competition. Try to get even without turning yourself in to the energy pariah of the century - someone who will be written up in the history books as having denied millions of desperate individuals access to cheap energy because he was unhappy over the fact that someone was making profits off of something that he thought he should be profiting over himself. If Rossi's technology has been stolen, I hope he refuses any credit, money, or other compensation. I would also hope he would turn down the nobel prize. I hope his mission in life becomes to stop anyone who has used his technology without permission. Shish! I'm glad I don't think the way you do. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
When it comes to sticking to my principles, it does not matter what people think of me. I'm the kind of person who goes into church and asks Christians, who would Jesus bomb. At that point I'm automatically considered an evil liberal. In this life you can usually take two roads when it comes to most decisions. The first road is the one that is a compromise of your principles, and branches out to many different roads. This road is often easier to ride on, has fewer bumps, and makes a commute easy. The second road is the one where you refuse to budge one inch on your principles. It is full of bumps, and can easily get you a flat tire. For example, a woman divorcing her husband after being cheated on (THE FIRST TIME) despite having ten kids and no way to financially support them, and her husband apologizing. Divorce is the only appropriate answer, even if it could mean the kids end up being sent to orphanages and never seeing each other again. Some may say she should have not divorced her husband, but I believe her principles are more important than anything else. If I were Andrea Rossi and if my technology had been copied without permission (I'm not saying it has) I would let the world consider me the most evil man in history. I would sleep just fine at night knowing that I did the right thing, by standing up for not only my rights, and the property rights of all other inventors. A world without absolute rights is not worth living in. Sadly, the way the world is going, individuals are having their rights violated more and more each day. From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time noone noone sez: If I invented a billion dollar technology and someone copied it without my permission, I would not accept a trillion dollars from a lawsuit. The only thing I would accept is for the other company to be forced to re-call all their products. Then I would make money by selling the products from my own company. Good luck. You give me the impression that you think you can go to court and win your case in a just few weeks, and then everything will be honky dorey. Think again. Think years. Many, many years. And during all those contentious years of unending litigation that will make many a lawyer rich, and while you are demanding all those recalls, and to a complete halt to sales, just think of all the good PR you will be generating for yourself. People across the planet are desperate for any kind of cheaper energy. But your sense of demanding justice could end up potentially denying a huge portion of the population that opportunity - all on personal principle. I'm sure they will all understand your personal sense of outrage for not getting even richer off of your invention. But of course you'll be right. You have that going for you. Don't get me wrong. I would be pissed off, too, if someone stole my invention. But consider the ramifications of how best to get even with the competition. Try to get even without turning yourself in to the energy pariah of the century - someone who will be written up in the history books as having denied millions of desperate individuals access to cheap energy because he was unhappy over the fact that someone was making profits off of something that he thought he should be profiting over himself. If Rossi's technology has been stolen, I hope he refuses any credit, money, or other compensation. I would also hope he would turn down the nobel prize. I hope his mission in life becomes to stop anyone who has used his technology without permission. Shish! I'm glad I don't think the way you do. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
If everyone was better off, including yourself, you'd still follow your values? I completely disagree with this. All I care about is making people's lives better. On Feb 24, 2012, at 12:32 PM, noone noone wrote: When it comes to sticking to my principles, it does not matter what people think of me. I'm the kind of person who goes into church and asks Christians, who would Jesus bomb. At that point I'm automatically considered an evil liberal. In this life you can usually take two roads when it comes to most decisions. The first road is the one that is a compromise of your principles, and branches out to many different roads. This road is often easier to ride on, has fewer bumps, and makes a commute easy. The second road is the one where you refuse to budge one inch on your principles. It is full of bumps, and can easily get you a flat tire. For example, a woman divorcing her husband after being cheated on (THE FIRST TIME) despite having ten kids and no way to financially support them, and her husband apologizing. Divorce is the only appropriate answer, even if it could mean the kids end up being sent to orphanages and never seeing each other again. Some may say she should have not divorced her husband, but I believe her principles are more important than anything else. If I were Andrea Rossi and if my technology had been copied without permission (I'm not saying it has) I would let the world consider me the most evil man in history. I would sleep just fine at night knowing that I did the right thing, by standing up for not only my rights, and the property rights of all other inventors. A world without absolute rights is not worth living in. Sadly, the way the world is going, individuals are having their rights violated more and more each day. From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time noone noone sez: If I invented a billion dollar technology and someone copied it without my permission, I would not accept a trillion dollars from a lawsuit. The only thing I would accept is for the other company to be forced to re-call all their products. Then I would make money by selling the products from my own company. Good luck. You give me the impression that you think you can go to court and win your case in a just few weeks, and then everything will be honky dorey. Think again. Think years. Many, many years. And during all those contentious years of unending litigation that will make many a lawyer rich, and while you are demanding all those recalls, and to a complete halt to sales, just think of all the good PR you will be generating for yourself. People across the planet are desperate for any kind of cheaper energy. But your sense of demanding justice could end up potentially denying a huge portion of the population that opportunity - all on personal principle. I'm sure they will all understand your personal sense of outrage for not getting even richer off of your invention. But of course you'll be right. You have that going for you. Don't get me wrong. I would be pissed off, too, if someone stole my invention. But consider the ramifications of how best to get even with the competition. Try to get even without turning yourself in to the energy pariah of the century - someone who will be written up in the history books as having denied millions of desperate individuals access to cheap energy because he was unhappy over the fact that someone was making profits off of something that he thought he should be profiting over himself. If Rossi's technology has been stolen, I hope he refuses any credit, money, or other compensation. I would also hope he would turn down the nobel prize. I hope his mission in life becomes to stop anyone who has used his technology without permission. Shish! I'm glad I don't think the way you do. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
If this affair doesn't go anywhere, we could start a fund for an opensource development of LENR. 2012/2/24 Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com If everyone was better off, including yourself, you'd still follow your values? I completely disagree with this. All I care about is making people's lives better. On Feb 24, 2012, at 12:32 PM, noone noone wrote: When it comes to sticking to my principles, it does not matter what people think of me. I'm the kind of person who goes into church and asks Christians, who would Jesus bomb. At that point I'm automatically considered an evil liberal. In this life you can usually take two roads when it comes to most decisions. The first road is the one that is a compromise of your principles, and branches out to many different roads. This road is often easier to ride on, has fewer bumps, and makes a commute easy. The second road is the one where you refuse to budge one inch on your principles. It is full of bumps, and can easily get you a flat tire. For example, a woman divorcing her husband after being cheated on (THE FIRST TIME) despite having ten kids and no way to financially support them, and her husband apologizing. Divorce is the only appropriate answer, even if it could mean the kids end up being sent to orphanages and never seeing each other again. Some may say she should have not divorced her husband, but I believe her principles are more important than anything else. If I were Andrea Rossi and if my technology had been copied without permission (I'm not saying it has) I would let the world consider me the most evil man in history. I would sleep just fine at night knowing that I did the right thing, by standing up for not only my rights, and the property rights of all other inventors. A world without absolute rights is not worth living in. Sadly, the way the world is going, individuals are having their rights violated more and more each day. -- *From:* OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Friday, February 24, 2012 1:21 PM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time noone noone sez: If I invented a billion dollar technology and someone copied it without my permission, I would not accept a trillion dollars from a lawsuit. The only thing I would accept is for the other company to be forced to re-call all their products. Then I would make money by selling the products from my own company. Good luck. You give me the impression that you think you can go to court and win your case in a just few weeks, and then everything will be honky dorey. Think again. Think years. Many, many years. And during all those contentious years of unending litigation that will make many a lawyer rich, and while you are demanding all those recalls, and to a complete halt to sales, just think of all the good PR you will be generating for yourself. People across the planet are desperate for any kind of cheaper energy. But your sense of demanding justice could end up potentially denying a huge portion of the population that opportunity - all on personal principle. I'm sure they will all understand your personal sense of outrage for not getting even richer off of your invention. But of course you'll be right. You have that going for you. Don't get me wrong. I would be pissed off, too, if someone stole my invention. But consider the ramifications of how best to get even with the competition. Try to get even without turning yourself in to the energy pariah of the century - someone who will be written up in the history books as having denied millions of desperate individuals access to cheap energy because he was unhappy over the fact that someone was making profits off of something that he thought he should be profiting over himself. If Rossi's technology has been stolen, I hope he refuses any credit, money, or other compensation. I would also hope he would turn down the nobel prize. I hope his mission in life becomes to stop anyone who has used his technology without permission. Shish! I'm glad I don't think the way you do. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
Exactly! We should crowd-source the funding to get this going. Or better, since nobody has money and everbody here has an opinion of how to make it work, we should Crowd Science! That's what we aim for with our crowd science project with the Peer Pressure. Cheers, Bastiaan. On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 10:59 AM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.comwrote: If this affair doesn't go anywhere, we could start a fund for an opensource development of LENR. 2012/2/24 Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com If everyone was better off, including yourself, you'd still follow your values? I completely disagree with this. All I care about is making people's lives better. On Feb 24, 2012, at 12:32 PM, noone noone wrote: When it comes to sticking to my principles, it does not matter what people think of me. I'm the kind of person who goes into church and asks Christians, who would Jesus bomb. At that point I'm automatically considered an evil liberal. In this life you can usually take two roads when it comes to most decisions. The first road is the one that is a compromise of your principles, and branches out to many different roads. This road is often easier to ride on, has fewer bumps, and makes a commute easy. The second road is the one where you refuse to budge one inch on your principles. It is full of bumps, and can easily get you a flat tire. For example, a woman divorcing her husband after being cheated on (THE FIRST TIME) despite having ten kids and no way to financially support them, and her husband apologizing. Divorce is the only appropriate answer, even if it could mean the kids end up being sent to orphanages and never seeing each other again. Some may say she should have not divorced her husband, but I believe her principles are more important than anything else. If I were Andrea Rossi and if my technology had been copied without permission (I'm not saying it has) I would let the world consider me the most evil man in history. I would sleep just fine at night knowing that I did the right thing, by standing up for not only my rights, and the property rights of all other inventors. A world without absolute rights is not worth living in. Sadly, the way the world is going, individuals are having their rights violated more and more each day. -- *From:* OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Friday, February 24, 2012 1:21 PM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time noone noone sez: If I invented a billion dollar technology and someone copied it without my permission, I would not accept a trillion dollars from a lawsuit. The only thing I would accept is for the other company to be forced to re-call all their products. Then I would make money by selling the products from my own company. Good luck. You give me the impression that you think you can go to court and win your case in a just few weeks, and then everything will be honky dorey. Think again. Think years. Many, many years. And during all those contentious years of unending litigation that will make many a lawyer rich, and while you are demanding all those recalls, and to a complete halt to sales, just think of all the good PR you will be generating for yourself. People across the planet are desperate for any kind of cheaper energy. But your sense of demanding justice could end up potentially denying a huge portion of the population that opportunity - all on personal principle. I'm sure they will all understand your personal sense of outrage for not getting even richer off of your invention. But of course you'll be right. You have that going for you. Don't get me wrong. I would be pissed off, too, if someone stole my invention. But consider the ramifications of how best to get even with the competition. Try to get even without turning yourself in to the energy pariah of the century - someone who will be written up in the history books as having denied millions of desperate individuals access to cheap energy because he was unhappy over the fact that someone was making profits off of something that he thought he should be profiting over himself. If Rossi's technology has been stolen, I hope he refuses any credit, money, or other compensation. I would also hope he would turn down the nobel prize. I hope his mission in life becomes to stop anyone who has used his technology without permission. Shish! I'm glad I don't think the way you do. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com http://www.orionworks.com/ www.zazzle.com/orionworks -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 1:03 PM, noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: A principled inventor would not accept a penny in damages in exchange for the other company to continue selling the products. A principled inventor would demand that the other company re-call their products, and be forced to STOP SELLING THEM. If I was an injured inventor, I would want sales to stop immediately. I would want them to stop so I could sell the products from my company, or from officially licensed parties. The lure of a hundred billion dollars would not be enough to make me sacrifice my principles. If Rossi has had his technology stolen or has his technology stolen in the future (I do not know if it has happened or will happen) then I hope he does not receive the Noble Prize, or any payments from those who have copied his technology. I would hope for one thing, that the companies who have copied his technology are forced to recall any products they have sold, and stop selling any more. If I was an inventor who had my tech stolen by Microsoft or Apple, I would demand the same thing. Even if it meant every single iPAD or iPhone that used my technology being taken off the market. If it bankrupts the other company having to pay back all their customers, so be it. If they didn't stop would you like to see them thrown in prison? Harry
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
It's been a slow-news Friday afternoon, so please accept my apologies for continuing this protracted discussion with noone noone: The world according to noone noone: If I invented a billion dollar technology and someone copied it without my permission, I would not accept a trillion dollars from a lawsuit. The only thing I would accept is for the other company to be forced to re-call all their products. Then I would make money by selling the products from my own company. When it comes to sticking to my principles, it does not matter what people think of me. It's been my experience that when I hear people boast that they don't care ...what other people think about [them]. they are essentially trying to convince themselves that they have found a magic bullet that allows themselves to become immune to what other people think about them. It matters, noone. It always matters. It's learning how to DEAL with how others think about you... that is a lesson in life we all must face. Its learning to find one's personal center. It's learning how to discover one's sense of personal integrity so that one can subsequently withstand the onslaught of external pressures demanding that we conform to specific social taboos. Quite frankly, it looks to me as if you are trying to remove yourself from having to deal with the anticipation of personal pain you fear you will feel based on what you fear others might say about you or think about you. You think you can avoid this lesson? Think again. Avoiding that lesson only means it will come back in another scenario again, and again, until you have the courage to pass through that fire. I'm the kind of person who goes into church and asks Christians, who would Jesus bomb. At that point I'm automatically considered an evil liberal. I have no idea how making such a statement about whom ...Jesus would bomb could possibly cause ANYONE to assume that you must therefore be an evil liberal. Are you sure you are reading their responses accurately, or is it possible that you hope you will be labeled as an evil liberal so that it gives you additional justification to dismiss how others will perceive you. From what you have told me so far, what all this seems to boil down to is the fact that you seem to be fishing around for convenient ways in which to avoid having to deal with how you fear others will perceive you. In this life you can usually take two roads when it comes to most decisions. The first road is the one that is a compromise of your principles, and branches out to many different roads. This road is often easier to ride on, has fewer bumps, and makes a commute easy. The second road is the one where you refuse to budge one inch on your principles. It is full of bumps, and can easily get you a flat tire. For example, a woman divorcing her husband after being cheated on (THE FIRST TIME) despite having ten kids and no way to financially support them, and her husband apologizing. Divorce is the only appropriate answer, even if it could mean the kids end up being sent to orphanages and never seeing each other again. Some may say she should have not divorced her husband, but I believe her principles are more important than anything else. I get the sense that certain elements pertaining to this hypothetical divorce scenario you have brought up may have touched on something that actually happened to you. In what capacity, I don't know. Nevertheless, you have my sympathies. Seeking counsel from individuals one has learned to trust is recommended. It can help. Now, in regards to the infidelity issue you cite here... quite frankly, noone, you are NOT dealing with principle here, even though you claim you are. The actions you cite have NOTHING to do with sticking to one's principles. To be perfectly blunt, you just don't want to deal with the complexities of what a dynamic relationship sometimes brings forth between two individuals. Sticking to the principals you cite here means you don't want to deal with WHY a spouse might have in the first place temporarily wandered from the sacred bonds and emotional security of marriage. You are using the excuse of sticking to your principles so that you can avoid some potential unpleasant soul-searching on your own part. What are you really afraid of? That maybe you'll discover the fact that you're just as imperfect as your spouse? After entering into discussion maybe a couple WILL discover the sad fact that they actually SHOULD separate, but then maybe such a drastic decision is unwarranted. Your principals would allow for no opportunity to explore all the choices - except for your principal of avoiding the whole matter altogether. If I were Andrea Rossi and if my technology had been copied without permission (I'm not saying it has) I would let the world consider me the most evil man in history. I would sleep just fine at night knowing that I did the right thing, by standing up for not only my rights, and the
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
Absolutely. I would not care if everyone would be better off, including myself. I would not care even if by accepting damages and letting the other company continue producing the units a million lives would be saved. Our rights and freedoms are more important than our physical bodies. I want other people's lives to be better too. I've not suffered as much as many people in the world, but I know what poverty is like. Sometimes doing the right thing means that you have to endure hardship. From: Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com To: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time If everyone was better off, including yourself, you'd still follow your values? I completely disagree with this. All I care about is making people's lives better. On Feb 24, 2012, at 12:32 PM, noone noone wrote: When it comes to sticking to my principles, it does not matter what people think of me. I'm the kind of person who goes into church and asks Christians, who would Jesus bomb. At that point I'm automatically considered an evil liberal. In this life you can usually take two roads when it comes to most decisions. The first road is the one that is a compromise of your principles, and branches out to many different roads. This road is often easier to ride on, has fewer bumps, and makes a commute easy. The second road is the one where you refuse to budge one inch on your principles. It is full of bumps, and can easily get you a flat tire. For example, a woman divorcing her husband after being cheated on (THE FIRST TIME) despite having ten kids and no way to financially support them, and her husband apologizing. Divorce is the only appropriate answer, even if it could mean the kids end up being sent to orphanages and never seeing each other again. Some may say she should have not divorced her husband, but I believe her principles are more important than anything else. If I were Andrea Rossi and if my technology had been copied without permission (I'm not saying it has) I would let the world consider me the most evil man in history. I would sleep just fine at night knowing that I did the right thing, by standing up for not only my rights, and the property rights of all other inventors. A world without absolute rights is not worth living in. Sadly, the way the world is going, individuals are having their rights violated more and more each day. From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time noone noone sez: If I invented a billion dollar technology and someone copied it without my permission, I would not accept a trillion dollars from a lawsuit. The only thing I would accept is for the other company to be forced to re-call all their products. Then I would make money by selling the products from my own company. Good luck. You give me the impression that you think you can go to court and win your case in a just few weeks, and then everything will be honky dorey. Think again. Think years. Many, many years. And during all those contentious years of unending litigation that will make many a lawyer rich, and while you are demanding all those recalls, and to a complete halt to sales, just think of all the good PR you will be generating for yourself. People across the planet are desperate for any kind of cheaper energy. But your sense of demanding justice could end up potentially denying a huge portion of the population that opportunity - all on personal principle. I'm sure they will all understand your personal sense of outrage for not getting even richer off of your invention. But of course you'll be right. You have that going for you. Don't get me wrong. I would be pissed off, too, if someone stole my invention. But consider the ramifications of how best to get even with the competition. Try to get even without turning yourself in to the energy pariah of the century - someone who will be written up in the history books as having denied millions of desperate individuals access to cheap energy because he was unhappy over the fact that someone was making profits off of something that he thought he should be profiting over himself. If Rossi's technology has been stolen, I hope he refuses any credit, money, or other compensation. I would also hope he would turn down the nobel prize. I hope his mission in life becomes to stop anyone who has used his technology without permission. Shish! I'm glad I don't think the way you do. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
The issue is not the design, but the catalysts and special treatment of the nickel powders. We do not need both companies if one company has stolen intellectual property. We do NOT know if this is the case. I am not saying they have stolen intellectual property. But if they have, they need to be stopped from selling any products that use Rossi's IP (or use IP they developed by studying Rossi's IP without permission.) Again, this is not about needs. The world needs this technology very badly, or I think modern civilization may not exist in 20 years. Despite how badly the world needs this technology, their needs are not more important than Andrea Rossi's right to property. If you approve of someone's right to property being violated to benefit others, then you must not have a problem with muggers holding people up in the street as long as they use the money for good purposes. From: David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com To: thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time It is fairly clear to me that DGT has a different design than Rossi. You seem to be over reacting to the situation as we need both companies. I personally think the world needs LENR a lot more than Rossi needs money and I think it is prudent for the lawyers to argue about IP later as is usually the case. Dave -Original Message- From: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, Feb 24, 2012 1:03 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time A principled inventor would not accept a penny in damages in exchange for the other company to continue selling the products. A principled inventor would demand that the other company re-call their products, and be forced to STOP SELLING THEM. If I was an injured inventor, I would want sales to stop immediately. I would want them to stop so I could sell the products from my company, or from officially licensed parties. The lure of a hundred billion dollars would not be enough to make me sacrifice my principles. If Rossi has had his technology stolen or has his technology stolen in the future (I do not know if it has happened or will happen) then I hope he does not receive the Noble Prize, or any payments from those who have copied his technology. I would hope for one thing, that the companies who have copied his technology are forced to recall any products they have sold, and stop selling any more. If I was an inventor who had my tech stolen by Microsoft or Apple, I would demand the same thing. Even if it meant every single iPAD or iPhone that used my technology being taken off the market. If it bankrupts the other company having to pay back all their customers, so be it. From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 10:08 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time From Jed, noone noone wrote: Possibility #2 -- A copy cat of Rossi's technology, using his intellectual property without permission. (This would be a horrible tragedy.) Nonsense. I agree, What well-known company has not filed suit against a potential competitor for daring to kick the tires of their product. Think of Apple. Meanwhile, it's business as usual. Or as Trump would say, it's just business. Meanwhile, nobody wants sales to stop. Cessation of sales would translate to no more money that could be awarded to the injured party! If DGT ends up whipping Rossi's ass, hopefully the inventor will end up with a reasonably satisfactory out-of-court consolation prize. ...A reasonable sum, perhaps amounting to several hundred million Euros - for pain and suffering. We'll see. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
One, the fact is that when it comes to me standing up for my principles, I don't care what people think about me. I would rather they think favorably of me, but if they do not I am not going to let it change my behavior. I have been called all sorts of names for supporting my various beliefs, but I kept on going. I kept on going when it made me an outcast. I eventually embraced it and realized that when people react strongly against you, that is a sign you were bold enough in your declaration of values. If no one opposes you or reacts negatively, you were either preaching to the choir, or cowardly in your presentation. Secondly, when it comes to divorce and marriage, I think the moment someone has sexual relations with someone who is not the spouse the marriage is broken. First of all, it is broken spiritually. This is my personal religious belief. I think the spiritual connection that makes a couple married is cut. Secondly, I think the relationship is severely damaged even on a non-spiritual level. It will be very difficult for one partner to trust the other. I don't think the person who was cheated on will ever view the cheater in the same way again. Third, there are all kinds of other issues to do with. For example, the FACT that if someone cheats once they are likely to cheat again. If a couple wants to stay married that is one thing, but I think it is unprincipled. I am not married and have never been, but if I were married and my spouse cheated on me, I would strive to get the divorce done and over with ASAP. Thankfully, I've not been in a situation this horrible personally, but I've been in other situations were principled decisions yielded significant consequences. Of course if a couple are not Christian and have an open marriage and have no problem with sex outside the confounds of marriage, then cheating is not an issue at all. Third, I am a Christian, but many Christians are not real Christians. For example, consider the countless neo-cons in the United States that promote the idea of going to war with Iran and other Middle Eastern nations. They are rabid about this, and despise liberals. I have brought up the fact that many so called Christians have turned into blood thirsty warmongers by supporting wars with Iran and other nations, and have been attacked for it. I know how Christians think about this issue. Fourth, the simple fact is that when it comes to certain issues, there can be no ethical compromise. My religious views on marriage is one example. Standing up for rights and freedoms (property rights) is another example. For many things there is a need for compromise. But when it comes to rights and freedoms there is no room for compromise. From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 4:17 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time It's been a slow-news Friday afternoon, so please accept my apologies for continuing this protracted discussion with noone noone: The world according to noone noone: If I invented a billion dollar technology and someone copied it without my permission, I would not accept a trillion dollars from a lawsuit. The only thing I would accept is for the other company to be forced to re-call all their products. Then I would make money by selling the products from my own company. When it comes to sticking to my principles, it does not matter what people think of me. It's been my experience that when I hear people boast that they don't care ...what other people think about [them]. they are essentially trying to convince themselves that they have found a magic bullet that allows themselves to become immune to what other people think about them. It matters, noone. It always matters. It's learning how to DEAL with how others think about you... that is a lesson in life we all must face. Its learning to find one's personal center. It's learning how to discover one's sense of personal integrity so that one can subsequently withstand the onslaught of external pressures demanding that we conform to specific social taboos. Quite frankly, it looks to me as if you are trying to remove yourself from having to deal with the anticipation of personal pain you fear you will feel based on what you fear others might say about you or think about you. You think you can avoid this lesson? Think again. Avoiding that lesson only means it will come back in another scenario again, and again, until you have the courage to pass through that fire. I'm the kind of person who goes into church and asks Christians, who would Jesus bomb. At that point I'm automatically considered an evil liberal. I have no idea how making such a statement about whom ...Jesus would bomb could possibly cause ANYONE to assume that you must therefore be an evil liberal. Are you sure you are reading their responses accurately
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
Jed is right on. There will be plenty of money to go around if this
technology is a go
On Friday, February 24, 2012, Jed Rothwell wrote:
noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'thesteornpa...@yahoo.com'); wrote:
We do not need both companies if one company has stolen intellectual
property. We do NOT know if this is the case. I am not saying they have
stolen intellectual property. But if they have, they need to be stopped
from selling any products that use Rossi's IP (or use IP they developed by
studying Rossi's IP without permission.)
That never happens, at least not in the U.S. That is not how civil
lawsuits and patent laws are enforced. Everyone continues selling until the
court decides. If there is an infringement the judge awards the winner with
a large share of the profits from the loser. No one stops X from selling
except when X is a minor player and putting X out of business would have no
impact on consumers.
They *never* shut down an industry or a major producer in such
cases. When IBM and Hitachi fight about a semiconductor patent, both sides
continue to manufacture and sell the chips until they settle out of court
or the judge rules. The judge never tells IBM to stop making the chips in
the meanwhile, because that would hurt other companies and consumers.
There have been fights like this since patent laws were invented in the
17th century.
This is not widely known, but the U.S. Patent Office and the judiciary do
not allow companies or individuals to stifle an important technology. If
Rossi does not sell his product, even if he has a patent others will soon
be allowed to make the product. If Rossi refuses to license them, the judge
will force him to do so. The judge will -- in effect -- draft a license
agreement, or tell the lawyers to do it. It is widely believed that big
companies can buy up a patent and prevent important technology from
being developed. This is a myth. As I said, the courts will not allow it.
They have ruled that the patent system cannot be used to prevent the spread
of useful technology. They take a dim view of companies that seem to be
stalling. In any case, patents do not last long and another company can
often invent around the patent if the owner refuses to license it, so
this strategy would not work.
- Jed
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
I am not an expert at law, but I would strive to stop someone from selling my technology without permission even if it was a futile battle. If I did decide to take money (if I thought it was the best way to fight against the company using my technology), I would let it be known to the courts that any money awarded to me would be instantly used to try and stop the activities of the party that stole my technology. For example, I would make products and give them away to stop people from purchasing products from the other company. Or I would wage a PR campaign against the other company. Also, a possibility would be to use the money to hire more lawyers to make the life of the company as miserable as possible. I would also not allow the offending company to obtain a license agreement. I would tell the Judge flat out that I would rather be publicly drawn, hung, and quartered rather than sign the piece of paper. He may end up awarding the technology ownership fully to the other company, but at least I would have stuck up for what was right. The world you are describing is a nightmare world, in my opinion. It is a world that does not deserve cold fusion technology. I hope the reality of things are not as horrible as you portray. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:35 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: We do not need both companies if one company has stolen intellectual property. We do NOT know if this is the case. I am not saying they have stolen intellectual property. But if they have, they need to be stopped from selling any products that use Rossi's IP (or use IP they developed by studying Rossi's IP without permission.) That never happens, at least not in the U.S. That is not how civil lawsuits and patent laws are enforced. Everyone continues selling until the court decides. If there is an infringement the judge awards the winner with a large share of the profits from the loser. No one stops X from selling except when X is a minor player and putting X out of business would have no impact on consumers. They never shut down an industry or a major producer in such cases. When IBM and Hitachi fight about a semiconductor patent, both sides continue to manufacture and sell the chips until they settle out of court or the judge rules. The judge never tells IBM to stop making the chips in the meanwhile, because that would hurt other companies and consumers. There have been fights like this since patent laws were invented in the 17th century. This is not widely known, but the U.S. Patent Office and the judiciary do not allow companies or individuals to stifle an important technology. If Rossi does not sell his product, even if he has a patent others will soon be allowed to make the product. If Rossi refuses to license them, the judge will force him to do so. The judge will -- in effect -- draft a license agreement, or tell the lawyers to do it. It is widely believed that big companies can buy up a patent and prevent important technology from being developed. This is a myth. As I said, the courts will not allow it. They have ruled that the patent system cannot be used to prevent the spread of useful technology. They take a dim view of companies that seem to be stalling. In any case, patents do not last long and another company can often invent around the patent if the owner refuses to license it, so this strategy would not work. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
Money is not the point. The point is that if a company steals a technology from an inventor (again I am not saying Defkalion has stolen anything, I am speaking hypothetically) the company who stole the technology should not be allowed to sell products using the technology. Of course if the inventor WANTS to make a deal with them that is fine. However, if he does NOT want to make a deal with them, it should be his option to have the company that stole his technology re-call their products. It does not matter if the inventor could make a trillion dollars, and the offending company would only make one million dollars. If a company steals a technology they do not deserve to make one red cent off it, if that is the inventor's decision. Rewarding theft is not acceptable. If anyone supports companies being allowed to use technologies they have stolen against the will of the inventor, they must also not have a problem with burglars making profit off items they steal when breaking and entering into someone's home. For example, what Jed Rothwell describes is exactly the same as the following scenrio. A burgler enters someones home and steals thousands of items. He then starts a business selling those items. For example, maybe the business was baseball cards. The issue goes to court and the Judge fines the burglar for stealing the cards, but then allows the burglar to continue running the business. The fact is if someone steals from you they should not be able to continue using the stolen items in their business, period! It does not matter how much they are fined, or how much money they are willing to give you for allowing their business to stay open. The victim should be able to choose if he wants the burglar's business shut down or not, at least when it comes to the use of the stolen items. It is the same exact thing. From: Chemical Engineer cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time Jed is right on. There will be plenty of money to go around if this technology is a go On Friday, February 24, 2012, Jed Rothwell wrote: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: We do not need both companies if one company has stolen intellectual property. We do NOT know if this is the case. I am not saying they have stolen intellectual property. But if they have, they need to be stopped from selling any products that use Rossi's IP (or use IP they developed by studying Rossi's IP without permission.) That never happens, at least not in the U.S. That is not how civil lawsuits and patent laws are enforced. Everyone continues selling until the court decides. If there is an infringement the judge awards the winner with a large share of the profits from the loser. No one stops X from selling except when X is a minor player and putting X out of business would have no impact on consumers. They never shut down an industry or a major producer in such cases. When IBM and Hitachi fight about a semiconductor patent, both sides continue to manufacture and sell the chips until they settle out of court or the judge rules. The judge never tells IBM to stop making the chips in the meanwhile, because that would hurt other companies and consumers. There have been fights like this since patent laws were invented in the 17th century. This is not widely known, but the U.S. Patent Office and the judiciary do not allow companies or individuals to stifle an important technology. If Rossi does not sell his product, even if he has a patent others will soon be allowed to make the product. If Rossi refuses to license them, the judge will force him to do so. The judge will -- in effect -- draft a license agreement, or tell the lawyers to do it. It is widely believed that big companies can buy up a patent and prevent important technology from being developed. This is a myth. As I said, the courts will not allow it. They have ruled that the patent system cannot be used to prevent the spread of useful technology. They take a dim view of companies that seem to be stalling. In any case, patents do not last long and another company can often invent around the patent if the owner refuses to license it, so this strategy would not work. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
Of course other people can have different values, but it does not mean their values are the correct ones. There can only be one correct set of values for humanity when it comes to right and wrong. If you are for an open marriage, you are obviously not a Christian. I think you have the right to have an open marriage and the right to call yourself a Christian if you want. But I will state for the record that according to the Bible an open marriage is absolutely wrong, and immoral. However, as a small govt. advocate I would openly stand up for your right to be in an open marriage, or be married to a dozen women if you want. But at the same time I would say that you were living an immoral life that I thought was wrong. In my opinion, rights and freedoms are not to make your life better. They are about keeping you free. Being free may not always be easy or a good experience. Expressing your freedom can get you killed in many areas of the world. However, we are all born with certain rights and freedoms that come from our creator. We have to stand up for those rights and freedoms. Of course people have the choice not to. If they do not stand up for ALL their rights I think they have less moral grounds to complain when someone violates a certain right. For example, those who have no problem with inventors having their technology stolen if it benefits the planet have no moral authority to compalin if an evil person steals from them. Theft is theft. From: Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com To: thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:41 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time Can't someone have different values than you? I am all for open marriage. How am I not a Christian if I favor open marriage? The only purpose of having rights and freedoms is to make your life better. If life is better without freedoms, I don't want freedom. According to you, don't people have the right to support war if they want to? Do people have the right to sell themselves into slavery? Believe it or not, I'm actually more of an outcast than you are, especially on the internet. I don't care what people think about me, either. I don't like to call people names on the internet, but you are making it very hard:). Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:57:43 -0800 From: thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time To: vortex-l@eskimo.com One, the fact is that when it comes to me standing up for my principles, I don't care what people think about me. I would rather they think favorably of me, but if they do not I am not going to let it change my behavior. I have been called all sorts of names for supporting my various beliefs, but I kept on going. I kept on going when it made me an outcast. I eventually embraced it and realized that when people react strongly against you, that is a sign you were bold enough in your declaration of values. If no one opposes you or reacts negatively, you were either preaching to the choir, or cowardly in your presentation. Secondly, when it comes to divorce and marriage, I think the moment someone has sexual relations with someone who is not the spouse the marriage is broken. First of all, it is broken spiritually. This is my personal religious belief. I think the spiritual connection that makes a couple married is cut. Secondly, I think the relationship is severely damaged even on a non-spiritual level. It will be very difficult for one partner to trust the other. I don't think the person who was cheated on will ever view the cheater in the same way again. Third, there are all kinds of other issues to do with. For example, the FACT that if someone cheats once they are likely to cheat again. If a couple wants to stay married that is one thing, but I think it is unprincipled. I am not married and have never been, but if I were married and my spouse cheated on me, I would strive to get the divorce done and over with ASAP. Thankfully, I've not been in a situation this horrible personally, but I've been in other situations were principled decisions yielded significant consequences. Of course if a couple are not Christian and have an open marriage and have no problem with sex outside the confounds of marriage, then cheating is not an issue at all. Third, I am a Christian, but many Christians are not real Christians. For example, consider the countless neo-cons in the United States that promote the idea of going to war with Iran and other Middle Eastern nations. They are rabid about this, and despise liberals. I have brought up the fact that many so called Christians have turned into blood thirsty warmongers by supporting wars with Iran and other nations, and have been attacked for it. I know how Christians think about this issue. Fourth, the simple fact is that when it comes to certain issues, there can be no ethical
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
The greek corner has a post at 3:38 pm http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=eltl=enjs=nprev=_thl=enie=UTF-8layout=2eotf=1u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.defkalion-energy.com%2Fforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ff%3D4%26t%3D359%26p%3D6607%26sid%3D7ec7ecfb643df0284b6e2919cb1c5c34%23p6607 alfalfa wrote: Good luck on tests Defkalion. (Good luck to us all ...) Thank you DGT
RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
If your definition of Christianity is following every line of the bible, than I am not a Christian. But the bible itself says that the only requirement for Christianity is believing God sent someone down to die for our sins. By this definition, I am a Christian. I actually don't give a crap what the bible says. It's just a collection of made up stories. Why didn't Jesus come from China, India, or even America? There are more people in other areas of the world. And why should I believe in Christianity just because other people or my parents do? Most people believe in things that I disagree with like a democracy being the best form of government. If the majority of people are wrong about that, can't they be wrong about Christianity as well? You're saying you can't have values if you are not a Christian? Isn't cold fusion a gift from God, something God created, so Rossi would actually be stealing by hoarding this technology. Doesn't the bible say to help thy neighbor. Rossi has the chance to help millions of people, but he would rather hoard all of the wealth to himself. So, he would be going against his values at the same time he is sticking with his values. Most people want freedom because they think it will lead to a better life. If there was a situation where everyone knew freedom would lead to a worse life but their values would be upheld, no one, except maybe you, would want freedom. Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 16:19:26 -0800 From: thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Of course other people can have different values, but it does not mean their values are the correct ones. There can only be one correct set of values for humanity when it comes to right and wrong. If you are for an open marriage, you are obviously not a Christian. I think you have the right to have an open marriage and the right to call yourself a Christian if you want. But I will state for the record that according to the Bible an open marriage is absolutely wrong, and immoral. However, as a small govt. advocate I would openly stand up for your right to be in an open marriage, or be married to a dozen women if you want. But at the same time I would say that you were living an immoral life that I thought was wrong. In my opinion, rights and freedoms are not to make your life better. They are about keeping you free. Being free may not always be easy or a good experience. Expressing your freedom can get you killed in many areas of the world. However, we are all born with certain rights and freedoms that come from our creator. We have to stand up for those rights and freedoms. Of course people have the choice not to. If they do not stand up for ALL their rights I think they have less moral grounds to complain when someone violates a certain right. For example, those who have no problem with inventors having their technology stolen if it benefits the planet have no moral authority to compalin if an evil person steals from them. Theft is theft. From: Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com To: thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:41 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time Can't someone have different values than you? I am all for open marriage. How am I not a Christian if I favor open marriage? The only purpose of having rights and freedoms is to make your life better. If life is better without freedoms, I don't want freedom. According to you, don't people have the right to support war if they want to? Do people have the right to sell themselves into slavery? Believe it or not, I'm actually more of an outcast than you are, especially on the internet. I don't care what people think about me, either. I don't like to call people names on the internet, but you are making it very hard:). Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:57:43 -0800 From: thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time To: vortex-l@eskimo.com One, the fact is that when it comes to me standing up for my principles, I don't care what people think about me. I would rather they think favorably of me, but if they do not I am not going to let it change my behavior. I have been called all sorts of names for supporting my various beliefs, but I kept on going. I kept on going when it made me an outcast. I eventually embraced it and realized that when people react strongly against you, that is a sign you were bold enough in your declaration of values. If no one opposes you or reacts negatively, you were either preaching to the choir, or cowardly in your presentation. Secondly, when it comes to divorce and marriage, I think the moment someone has sexual relations with someone who is not the spouse the marriage is broken. First of all, it is broken spiritually. This is my personal religious belief. I think the spiritual connection that makes a couple married is cut. Secondly, I think
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: If I did decide to take money (if I thought it was the best way to fight against the company using my technology), I would let it be known to the courts that any money awarded to me would be instantly used to try and stop the activities of the party that stole my technology. 1. You can't talk in court. Only your lawyer can, and it has to be about the case. 2. They don't care what you use the money for. I would also not allow the offending company to obtain a license agreement. It would not be up to you. You can't make up laws as you go along. I would tell the Judge flat out that I would rather be publicly drawn, hung, and quartered rather than sign the piece of paper. Judges don't care what you think. You don't have to actually sign the paper for this to go into effect. Bear in mind also that these are civil suits. Jail sentences and the police play no role in them. In that sense it is quite different from stealing actual property. The world you are describing is a nightmare world, in my opinion. It is a world that does not deserve cold fusion technology. I hope the reality of things are not as horrible as you portray. This is the real world. You do not appear to know much about business, contracts and civil lawsuits. There are good reasons why we do things the way we do. You should not assume that laws and customs that have been in place for centuries are horrible. Sometimes they are dysfunctional or obsolete, but we have to be careful about changing long-standing institutions. The conservative attitude is justified. In this case, the system has protect the interests of customers, and it has to promote technological progress. The system cannot take into account only the intellectual property rights of the inventor, ignoring all other factors. If Defkalion succeeds I expect it will eventually benefit Rossi tremendously. He will make hundreds of millions of dollars. Left to his own devices, he would probably not make any money. I doubt that Defkalion has taken anything from him, but even if they have, he will probably get more from them than he could ever earn by himself. Don't fret about any of this. It will probably work out well for everyone. There will be barrels of money. Enough for everyone. In 10 years the dispute will be forgotten. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
I think that you should consider that Rossi and many before him are using technology that was derived by others. It is seldom as simple as you seem to think when IP is being judicated. I recall when the company I worked with at the time as well as its main competitor would periodically have a patent battle. We all knew the game: each company would list a number of patents that they held which they considered violated. After a few lawyers were paid off, both sides would agree to allow the others to proceed with their production. It is a joke to think that Rossi does not owe his design to the shoulders upon which he stands. Look at all of the patents before him if you really think that his hands are totally clean. You seem to think too much in black and white when business is always handled in shades of gray. And I have a hard time believing that you really would rather see damage to everyone, including your family, in order to stand up for a principle that is not valid. Please explain how Rossi can be sure that his IP has been stolen by anyone? The only way that a determination of this sort can be handled is after an extensive court battle where all of the important conversations, any technology transfers, or other happening are examined. Are you knowledgeable of details that we have not been a party to? You do recall Rossi making claims that DGT does not have any knowledge from him don't you? What more do you require? This entire discussion is a bit silly and is most likely someone's idea of a joke. Dave -Original Message- From: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:02 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time I am not an expert at law, but I would strive to stop someone from selling my technology without permission even if it was a futile battle. If I did decide to take money (if I thought it was the best way to fight against the company using my technology), I would let it be known to the courts that any money awarded to me would be instantly used to try and stop the activities of the party that stole my technology. For example, I would make products and give them away to stop people from purchasing products from the other company. Or I would wage a PR campaign against the other company. Also, a possibility would be to use the money to hire more lawyers to make the life of the company as miserable as possible. I would also not allow the offending company to obtain a license agreement. I would tell the Judge flat out that I would rather be publicly drawn, hung, and quartered rather than sign the piece of paper. He may end up awarding the technology ownership fully to the other company, but at least I would have stuck up for what was right. The world you are describing is a nightmare world, in my opinion. It is a world that does not deserve cold fusion technology. I hope the reality of things are not as horrible as you portray. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 6:35 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: We do not need both companies if one company has stolen intellectual property. We do NOT know if this is the case. I am not saying they have stolen intellectual property. But if they have, they need to be stopped from selling any products that use Rossi's IP (or use IP they developed by studying Rossi's IP without permission.) That never happens, at least not in the U.S. That is not how civil lawsuits and patent laws are enforced. Everyone continues selling until the court decides. If there is an infringement the judge awards the winner with a large share of the profits from the loser. No one stops X from selling except when X is a minor player and putting X out of business would have no impact on consumers. They never shut down an industry or a major producer in such cases. When IBM and Hitachi fight about a semiconductor patent, both sides continue to manufacture and sell the chips until they settle out of court or the judge rules. The judge never tells IBM to stop making the chips in the meanwhile, because that would hurt other companies and consumers. There have been fights like this since patent laws were invented in the 17th century. This is not widely known, but the U.S. Patent Office and the judiciary do not allow companies or individuals to stifle an important technology. If Rossi does not sell his product, even if he has a patent others will soon be allowed to make the product. If Rossi refuses to license them, the judge will force him to do so. The judge will -- in effect -- draft a license agreement, or tell the lawyers to do it. It is widely believed that big companies can buy up a patent and prevent important technology from being developed. This is a myth. As I said, the courts will not allow it. They have
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
From: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com To: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 3:58 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 1:03 PM, noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: If I was an inventor who had my tech stolen by Microsoft or Apple, I would demand the same thing. Even if it meant every single iPAD or iPhone that used my technology being taken off the market. If it bankrupts the other company having to pay back all their customers, so be it. If they didn't stop would you like to see them thrown in prison? Harry On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 5:37 PM, noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: I think so. If you are a Christian then you should know that forgiving debts and transgression is actually good for your soul. harry
RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
As I recall, a patent may be denied ( and possibly implementation forbidden ) if it would be substantially disruptive to the US economy ( that seems to imply that the really great inventions are suppressed :-( ). A good strategy then may be to get your stuff on the market before the gov't realizes what just happened. http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:35_U.S.C._181:Secrecy_of_certain_inve ntions_and_withholding_of_patent Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona US -Original Messag [Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.] e- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 4:36 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: We do not need both companies if one company has stolen intellectual property. We do NOT know if this is the case. I am not saying they have stolen intellectual property. But if they have, they need to be stopped from selling any products that use Rossi's IP (or use IP they developed by studying Rossi's IP without permission.) That never happens, at least not in the U.S. That is not how civil lawsuits and patent laws are enforced. Everyone continues selling until the court decides. If there is an infringement the judge awards the winner with a large share of the profits from the loser. No one stops X from selling except when X is a minor player and putting X out of business would have no impact on consumers.[Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.] ... - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
Do you really think that if the U.S. government had the power to forbid implementation of cold fusion, that they wouldn't realize a cold fusion device is headed for the market? From: hoyt.stea...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 19:25:15 -0700 As I recall, a patent may be denied ( and possibly implementation forbidden ) if it would be substantially disruptive to the US economy ( that seems to imply that the really great inventions are suppressed :-( ). A good strategy then may be to get your stuff on the market before the gov't realizes what just happened. http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:35_U.S.C._181:Secrecy_of_certain_inventions_and_withholding_of_patent Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona US -Original Messag [Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.] e- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 4:36 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: We do not need both companies if one company has stolen intellectual property. We do NOT know if this is the case. I am not saying they have stolen intellectual property. But if they have, they need to be stopped from selling any products that use Rossi's IP (or use IP they developed by studying Rossi's IP without permission.) That never happens, at least not in the U.S. That is not how civil lawsuits and patent laws are enforced. Everyone continues selling until the court decides. If there is an infringement the judge awards the winner with a large share of the profits from the loser. No one stops X from selling except when X is a minor player and putting X out of business would have no impact on consumers.[Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.] ... - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
Do you really think that if the U.S. government had the power to forbid implementation of cold fusion, that they wouldn't realize a cold fusion device is headed for the market? From: oldja...@hotmail.com To: hoyt.stea...@gmail.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 21:47:00 -0500 Do you really think that if the U.S. government had the power to forbid implementation of cold fusion, that they wouldn't realize a cold fusion device is headed for the market? From: hoyt.stea...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 19:25:15 -0700 As I recall, a patent may be denied ( and possibly implementation forbidden ) if it would be substantially disruptive to the US economy ( that seems to imply that the really great inventions are suppressed :-( ). A good strategy then may be to get your stuff on the market before the gov't realizes what just happened. http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:35_U.S.C._181:Secrecy_of_certain_inventions_and_withholding_of_patent Hoyt Stearns Scottsdale, Arizona US -Original Messag [Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.] e- From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 4:36 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: We do not need both companies if one company has stolen intellectual property. We do NOT know if this is the case. I am not saying they have stolen intellectual property. But if they have, they need to be stopped from selling any products that use Rossi's IP (or use IP they developed by studying Rossi's IP without permission.) That never happens, at least not in the U.S. That is not how civil lawsuits and patent laws are enforced. Everyone continues selling until the court decides. If there is an infringement the judge awards the winner with a large share of the profits from the loser. No one stops X from selling except when X is a minor player and putting X out of business would have no impact on consumers.[Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.] ... - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
I think there are critical aspects of Rossi's technology that are totally novel to cold fusion. Those are the ones that allow him to produce a practical amount of heat when no one else (that I am aware) has been able to do so. If these critical pieces of intellectual property have been stolen (I do not know if they have been or not) then I think he should do whatever it takes for him to stop any other company from using it without his permission. I realize IP issues are complicated. But in Rossi's case there is SOMETHING that is allowing him to produce huge amounts of heat. I think this is his catalyst and perhaps the specific preperation and enrichment of the nickel powder. I doubt that anyone could say that they own these aspects of his technology, because otherwise I think they would have tried to bring about a robust cold fusion technology years ago. This is not a joke. I am being serious. I not a very jovial person. I do NOT know if Rossi's intellectual property has been stolen or not. But from what I have read I cannot totally dismiss the possibility. The fact is I've already hurt myself and my family with decisions I have made that were based on principles. I'm sitting here unable to get the medical care (at least not without going through countless hoops) I need (nothing life threatening) because of my decisions. It is also the reason why I'm single and never married. I refused to compromise on my morals, even when the so called Christian women were willing to. I'm not a saint. I'm not perfect. I also do not claim that I've always stuck to every principle 100% of the time. I sin and I have to ask forgiveness. But I do my best to live an ethical life. If that hurts me financially or otherwise, I try to realize that you can't take with you anything when you are dead. You can only hope that you lived as ethically and morally as possible. From: David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:39 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time I think that you should consider that Rossi and many before him are using technology that was derived by others. It is seldom as simple as you seem to think when IP is being judicated. I recall when the company I worked with at the time as well as its main competitor would periodically have a patent battle. We all knew the game: each company would list a number of patents that they held which they considered violated. After a few lawyers were paid off, both sides would agree to allow the others to proceed with their production. It is a joke to think that Rossi does not owe his design to the shoulders upon which he stands. Look at all of the patents before him if you really think that his hands are totally clean. You seem to think too much in black and white when business is always handled in shades of gray. And I have a hard time believing that you really would rather see damage to everyone, including your family, in order to stand up for a principle that is not valid. Please explain how Rossi can be sure that his IP has been stolen by anyone? The only way that a determination of this sort can be handled is after an extensive court battle where all of the important conversations, any technology transfers, or other happening are examined. Are you knowledgeable of details that we have not been a party to? You do recall Rossi making claims that DGT does not have any knowledge from him don't you? What more do you require? This entire discussion is a bit silly and is most likely someone's idea of a joke. Dave -Original Message- From: noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Fri, Feb 24, 2012 7:02 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time I am not an expert at law, but I would strive to stop someone from selling my technology without permission even if it was a futile battle. If I did decide to take money (if I thought it was the best way to fight against the company using my technology), I would let it be known to the courts that any money awarded to me would be instantly used to try and stop the activities of the party that stole my technology. For example, I would make products and give them away to stop people from purchasing products from the other company. Or I would wage a PR campaign against the other company. Also, a possibility would be to use the money to hire more lawyers to make the life of the company as miserable as possible. I would also not allow the offending company to obtain a license agreement. I would tell the Judge flat out that I would rather be publicly drawn, hung, and quartered rather than sign the piece of paper. He may end up awarding the technology ownership fully to the other company, but at least I would have stuck up for what was right. The world you are describing is a nightmare world, in my opinion. It is a world that does
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
Hello Jed, Once again, everyone points out there will be plenty of money for everyone. Everyone is obsessed with money. I am not. The fact is if I was in a situation where I was an inventor and my technology was stolen, money would be the last thing on my mind. If I was forced to accept money, I would work with lawyers to try and find the best way to use it against the company that stole my technology. I would not care how much I had to benefit, or the world had to benefit. I am in the real world. I realize I am not a law expert, but at the same time I know what is right and what is wrong. If I had a technology that was stolen, I would simply strive to do anything and everything to prevent the other company from being able to use my technology. I might fail, and they might be allowed to sell the technology. But I would do everything (that is peaceful and non-violent) to hinder that company for the rest of my life. Hopefully, I would at least slow down the proliferation of the stolen technology. Once again, I am speaking about a hypothetical stolen technology. Sadly, you and others seem to think the needs of the many are more important than the rights of the individual. That is how our sickening world works these days (for the most part). However, I hope that will change in the future. The rights of the individual must be protected at all cost, because otherwise life becomes meaningless. If I do not have my rights and freedoms protected, I might as well not be alive. I do not agree about Rossi. One thing about Rossi is that he never gives up. He is also a very hard worker. I think he will be successful. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:38 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: If I did decide to take money (if I thought it was the best way to fight against the company using my technology), I would let it be known to the courts that any money awarded to me would be instantly used to try and stop the activities of the party that stole my technology. 1. You can't talk in court. Only your lawyer can, and it has to be about the case. 2. They don't care what you use the money for. I would also not allow the offending company to obtain a license agreement. It would not be up to you. You can't make up laws as you go along. I would tell the Judge flat out that I would rather be publicly drawn, hung, and quartered rather than sign the piece of paper. Judges don't care what you think. You don't have to actually sign the paper for this to go into effect. Bear in mind also that these are civil suits. Jail sentences and the police play no role in them. In that sense it is quite different from stealing actual property. The world you are describing is a nightmare world, in my opinion. It is a world that does not deserve cold fusion technology. I hope the reality of things are not as horrible as you portray. This is the real world. You do not appear to know much about business, contracts and civil lawsuits. There are good reasons why we do things the way we do. You should not assume that laws and customs that have been in place for centuries are horrible. Sometimes they are dysfunctional or obsolete, but we have to be careful about changing long-standing institutions. The conservative attitude is justified. In this case, the system has protect the interests of customers, and it has to promote technological progress. The system cannot take into account only the intellectual property rights of the inventor, ignoring all other factors. If Defkalion succeeds I expect it will eventually benefit Rossi tremendously. He will make hundreds of millions of dollars. Left to his own devices, he would probably not make any money. I doubt that Defkalion has taken anything from him, but even if they have, he will probably get more from them than he could ever earn by himself. Don't fret about any of this. It will probably work out well for everyone. There will be barrels of money. Enough for everyone. In 10 years the dispute will be forgotten. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
Here is a good example of someone who had their rights violated. http://www.therecord.com/news/local/article/676150--man-shocked-by-arrest-after-daughter-draws-picture-of-gun-at-school This guy had his rights violated in a number of different ways. He was not a criminal. Those that were involved in his abduction and sexual assault are the criminals. If a random person abducts a person and strips them naked it is a sexual assault. If a policeman does it for NO VALID REASON when no crime has been committed, it is a sexual assault too. There is no difference whatsoever. I would have not left the police station, and would have demanded to stay in the cell until everyone involved in my ABDUCTION was put in the cell instead. If they can arrest an individual for no valid reason, then logically that individual should be able to request to stay in their cell until the issue is settled. Of course due to the fact that the courts in this nation are biased against the rights of individuals, the man would probably have gotten in more trouble. But it would have been worth it. Even if his family suffered, he lost his job, or if his family got broken apart, it would have been worth it. If people do not stand up for their rights now, their children my end up in even worse situations in the future. What if his daughter one day got arrested for her daughter drawing an image of a vitamin supplement bottle (some are pushing for supplements to be regulated like drugs) such as Co Enzyme Q10? It could happen. If people don't start PEACEFULLY and NON-VIOLENTLY start demanding their rights be protected then before long we will have no rights at all. This is why I want space exploration to happen ASAP. I am hoping some colony worlds might be a bit saner than our planet is today. However, you and others will probably say the school and police were justified, because it was in the name of public safety or something. Well, as far as I know, the 2nd amendment is still in the constitution. If Rossi's rights have been violated by any company then he needs to stand up for himself. By doing so, he will also be standing up for all future inventors. From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:38 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time noone noone thesteornpa...@yahoo.com wrote: If I did decide to take money (if I thought it was the best way to fight against the company using my technology), I would let it be known to the courts that any money awarded to me would be instantly used to try and stop the activities of the party that stole my technology. 1. You can't talk in court. Only your lawyer can, and it has to be about the case. 2. They don't care what you use the money for. I would also not allow the offending company to obtain a license agreement. It would not be up to you. You can't make up laws as you go along. I would tell the Judge flat out that I would rather be publicly drawn, hung, and quartered rather than sign the piece of paper. Judges don't care what you think. You don't have to actually sign the paper for this to go into effect. Bear in mind also that these are civil suits. Jail sentences and the police play no role in them. In that sense it is quite different from stealing actual property. The world you are describing is a nightmare world, in my opinion. It is a world that does not deserve cold fusion technology. I hope the reality of things are not as horrible as you portray. This is the real world. You do not appear to know much about business, contracts and civil lawsuits. There are good reasons why we do things the way we do. You should not assume that laws and customs that have been in place for centuries are horrible. Sometimes they are dysfunctional or obsolete, but we have to be careful about changing long-standing institutions. The conservative attitude is justified. In this case, the system has protect the interests of customers, and it has to promote technological progress. The system cannot take into account only the intellectual property rights of the inventor, ignoring all other factors. If Defkalion succeeds I expect it will eventually benefit Rossi tremendously. He will make hundreds of millions of dollars. Left to his own devices, he would probably not make any money. I doubt that Defkalion has taken anything from him, but even if they have, he will probably get more from them than he could ever earn by himself. Don't fret about any of this. It will probably work out well for everyone. There will be barrels of money. Enough for everyone. In 10 years the dispute will be forgotten. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
I think your reply address isn't configured to point to vortex-l. I hope Defkalion's technology is original. It very well may be. But if it is not, it is a shame that they did not simply pay Rossi earlier in 2011 so they could continue working together. Instead, if 2 or 3 is true, Rossi may be able to use legal means to stop them from using the tech without permission. Regardless of whether Defkalion's technology is original or not, a series of positive results would be a beautiful day for mankind. Andrea Rossi has submitted patent applications and has obtained at least one patent. If he has been forthright with his applications, he will have recourse to legal protection for any potential infringement. I personally think the patent system is fatally flawed, and I haven't the slightest sympathy for the idea of intellectual property. All kinds of things are patented that you could have thought up yourself, and in the process legal impediments are introduced into the creation of new technology without which the process would be purely creative. The system is set up to permit large corporations to raise high barriers to entry, and no legitimacy beyond that of money underlies the patent battles and the patent trolls that one sees these days, because if you have enough money you can purchase the patent bundles and hire the lawyers to enter into that whole game. The only part that ethics plays in any of this in my opinion relates to one's desire to be law abiding, even when some areas of it are inherently illegitimate. Eric
Re: [Vo]:Test day in Greece time
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 9:10 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: I personally think the patent system is fatally flawed, and I haven't the slightest sympathy for the idea of intellectual property. The conversation has moved on, but I should moderate the statement above, a little. I can think of some situations in which an injustice would be done to an inventor. An example is an inventor who puts a lot of his or her own personal time and money into an invention and in the process discovers a breakthrough, and then a better prepared competitor comes along and implements the idea without having to have put up the initial costs. So I disagree with my earlier statement that IP law is inherently illegitimate. But I'm often struck by defenses of it that go beyond let's not do anything rash. Creativity primarily involves putting a new spin on ideas that other people came up with. Eric
