Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor

On 31 July 2013 06:28, Erik Moeller wrote: Thanks. So, how did de:wp convince you when en:wp didn't? I notice you didn't address that point at all. - d. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedi

Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMF 2013 elections post-mortem

As Bishakha I believe time now is ripe to strengthen the election process and that we should aim for a standing committee. In the same time I think it would be good to look into this group a bit further (technical support, how to elect the committee, split dates for FDC/board elections etc).

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talkaboutVisualEditor

That should help, Any idea of when we can expect the change? Cheers, Peter - Original Message - From: "Erik Moeller" To: "Wikimedia Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 8:58 AM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talkaboutVisualEditor On Tue,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talkaboutVisualEditor

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 12:56 AM, Peter Southwood wrote: > That should help, Any idea of when we can expect the change? Last time I discussed with Trevor he mentioned that it was a trivial fix (we just need to remove the hover effect), so let me bug them tomorrow :). -- Erik Möller VP of Engine

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor

Am 30.07.2013 20:14 schrieb "David Gerard" : > > On 30 July 2013 17:03, Erik Moeller wrote: > > >If the overwhelming community sentiment > > is that the cost of continuous improvement with a large scale user > > base is larger than the benefit (as it was on dewiki), we'll switch > > back (or to a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Questions for the WMF Board of Trustees?

El 30/07/2013, a las 10:07, Alice Wiegand escribió: > Hi Lodewijk, > I like the idea of having more opportunities to talk and to try out > different approaches. > That was the reason for Patricio and me to offer a Chapters Lunch Meeting > on Sunday, where we want to talk about the role of Chapte

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor

Thanks Erik for the helpful attitude. Out of curiosity (not sure if this was discussed in more detail before - apologies for that), is it indeed true that Visual Editor is significantly slower than the regular editor (it feels like that to me, but might be my computer playing tricks on me), and is

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor

On 31 July 2013 10:59, rupert THURNER wrote: >> de:wp convinced you. What would it take to convince you on en:wp? (I'm >> asking for a clear objective criterion here. If you can only offer a >> subjective one, please explain how de:wp convinced you when en:wp >> hasn't.) > Hi David, i am editing

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor

On 31 July 2013 08:36, David Gerard wrote: > On 31 July 2013 10:59, rupert THURNER wrote: > > >> de:wp convinced you. What would it take to convince you on en:wp? (I'm > >> asking for a clear objective criterion here. If you can only offer a > >> subjective one, please explain how de:wp convince

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk aboutVisualEditor

It is a fair question. Peter - Original Message - From: "David Gerard" To: "Wikimedia Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk aboutVisualEditor On 31 July 2013 10:59, rupert THURNER wrote: de:wp

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor

Erik Moeller, 31/07/2013 07:28: We can't just work through a mountain of feedback in a waterfall development model and hope that all our assumptions about how to fix this or that complex issue will work out in practice. +1 Also, such an important feature cannot be based on biased feedback from

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor

On 07/31/2013 10:52 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote: > I think it would be helpful, if possible, to give some guesstimates of > this, i.e.: how longer a wait it would cost us to reach some rank of > quality if the deployment was downscaled; or, what would be the > "deadline" for feedback on aspects

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor

Hoi, Quality like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One thing that I learned today is that the Visual Editor will have functionality that only the more accomplished editors will enter directly or they will use templates. With VE these templates are redundant. From my perspective, the future wi

[Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Announcements] Fwd: Wikimedia UK monthly report, June 2013

Hello everyone, Please see below for the Wikimedia UK monthly report for June. For those of you who prefer to view the report on wiki, you can see it here . We always welcome contributions to the chapter's monthly reports from engaged Wikimedians. P

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor

Am 31.07.2013 15:07 schrieb "Risker" : > > On 31 July 2013 08:36, David Gerard wrote: > > > On 31 July 2013 10:59, rupert THURNER wrote: > > > > >> de:wp convinced you. What would it take to convince you on en:wp? (I'm > > >> asking for a clear objective criterion here. If you can only offer a >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk aboutVisualEditor

It is not so much the presence of the button, that I ,and preumably some others, object to, as that if you switch from one wiki to another a lot, which I do, you tend to click on the wrong link a lot of the time, and that wastes time for absolutely no useful purpose whatsoever. The links should

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor

On 31 July 2013 13:32, rupert THURNER wrote: > Am 31.07.2013 15:07 schrieb "Risker" : > > > > On 31 July 2013 08:36, David Gerard wrote: > > > > > On 31 July 2013 10:59, rupert THURNER > wrote: > > > > > > >> de:wp convinced you. What would it take to convince you on en:wp? > (I'm > > > >> aski

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Quality like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One thing that I learned > today is that the Visual Editor will have functionality that only the more > accomplished editors will enter directly or they will use templates. With > VE these

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor

2013/7/31 Brad Jorsch (Anomie) : > On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Gerard Meijssen > wrote: >> Quality like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One thing that I learned >> today is that the Visual Editor will have functionality that only the more >> accomplished editors will enter directly or

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 10:56 AM, Amir E. Aharoni wrote: > God no. The whole idea of VE is to make people NOT have to remember > CSS class names. > > If a template is a very common in a project, it should be a button > with complete GUI in the VE's toolbar in that project. If a template > is very

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 5:36 AM, David Gerard wrote: > Certainly. However, it's the obvious question to ask, and a curious > question to spend several paragraphs not answering. > > Erik, James - how did de:wp convinced you when en:wp hasn't? Hi David, I don't really agree with your framing - it'

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor

On 31 July 2013 19:27, Erik Moeller wrote: > On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 5:36 AM, David Gerard wrote: >> Erik, James - how did de:wp convinced you when en:wp hasn't? > I don't really agree with your framing - it's not about who's > convincing who, but being on a sustainable path to making VisualEdi

Re: [Wikimedia-l] On the gentrification of Wikipedia, by Superbass (was: Visual Editor)

On 7/29/13 10:50 PM, Erik Moeller wrote: On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Jan Ainali wrote: I have not read the vision statement as it is the production of knowledge that need be availible to every human being, but the consumption. Actually, having co-drafted the Vision Statement (it was draf

[Wikimedia-l] NSA

See attachment. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data Fred___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

> See attachment. > > http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data "the NSA has created a multi-tiered system that allows analysts to store "interesting" content in other databases, such as one named Pinwale which can store material for up to five years. " Fred

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

How is this related to the foundation? On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Fred Bauder wrote: > See attachment. > > > http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data > > Fred > ___ > Wikimedia-l mailing list > Wikimedia-l@

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

Apparently Wikipedia was or is one of the targeted websites. Risker On 31 July 2013 15:42, Huib Laurens wrote: > How is this related to the foundation? > > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:22 PM, Fred Bauder > wrote: > > > See attachment. > > > > > > > http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

Hmmm, the word "wiki" isn't named anywhere. On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Risker wrote: > Apparently Wikipedia was or is one of the targeted websites. > > Risker > > > On 31 July 2013 15:42, Huib Laurens wrote: > > > How is this related to the foundation? > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

It's from a slide they have a bit down the page with our logal about why they are interested in http. You can search for "nearly everything a typical user does on the internet" You can also see the slide on Jimmy's tweet about said issue: https://twitter.com/jimmy_wales/status/362626509648834560

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

I believe the concern derives from one of the subpages of the article: https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/7/31/1375269604628/KS8-001.jpg (Credit to David Gerard for digging that out; this same issue is under discussion on the Wikitech-L list.) Risker On 31 July 20

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

Look at the attached image. Fred > Hmmm, the word "wiki" isn't named anywhere. > > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Risker wrote: > >> Apparently Wikipedia was or is one of the targeted websites. >> >> Risker >> >> >> On 31 July 2013 15:42, Huib Laurens wrote: >> >> > How is this related to t

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 12:48 PM, Risker wrote: > I believe the concern derives from one of the subpages of the article: > > https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/7/31/1375269604628/KS8-001.jpg > > (Credit to David Gerard for digging that out; this same issue is under

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

On 31 July 2013 20:48, Risker wrote: > I believe the concern derives from one of the subpages of the article: > https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/7/31/1375269604628/KS8-001.jpg > (Credit to David Gerard for digging that out; this same issue is under > discussion on

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

On 31 July 2013 21:00, David Gerard wrote: > On 31 July 2013 20:48, Risker wrote: >> I believe the concern derives from one of the subpages of the article: >> https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/7/31/1375269604628/KS8-001.jpg >> (Credit to David Gerard for digging t

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 7:28 PM, David Gerard wrote: > On 31 July 2013 19:27, Erik Moeller wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 5:36 AM, David Gerard wrote: > > >> Erik, James - how did de:wp convinced you when en:wp hasn't? > > > I don't really agree with your framing - it's not about who's > >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 1:00 PM, David Gerard wrote: > On 31 July 2013 21:00, David Gerard wrote: > > On 31 July 2013 20:48, Risker wrote: > > >> I believe the concern derives from one of the subpages of the article: > >> > https://image.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/7/31/

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

On 31 July 2013 21:47, Ryan Lane wrote: > Why would we expect that we weren't being targeted? Knowing what people are > looking up is powerful knowledge. That doesn't make it one dot less reprehensible. - d. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 3:47 PM, Ryan Lane wrote: > > > > Why would we expect that we weren't being targeted? Knowing what people are > looking up is powerful knowledge. > > - Ryan Indeed. It's much more safe and sensible to just go down to your library and check out a book. Oh, wait. -- ~Ke

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

What surprises me is that anyone is surprised by any of this information. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

> > What surprises me is that anyone is surprised by any of this information. It's one thing to have suspicions and theories about it; but if the third party is constantly denying the allegations and with no recourse there's no point in getting angry. Now that we have reasonable doubt, I hesitate

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Matthew Walker wrote: >> >> What surprises me is that anyone is surprised by any of this information. > > > It's one thing to have suspicions and theories about it; but if the third > party is constantly denying the allegations and with no recourse there's no > poi

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

On 31 July 2013 23:01, Nathan wrote: > I think that's just naive. Of course it was always denied until it > became impossible to deny it. That's how these things work. But I have > honestly assumed for many years that virtually everything transmitted > over almost any electronic medium was collec

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

Thanks David. Always appreciate your wit. That said, I wasn't claiming that anticipating being monitored was exceptional. Quite the opposite; I said I was surprised there was anyone who didn't already assume everything was trapped and traced. Your reaction of "Fuck. Fuck these people." suggests yo

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

And another thought - you know what unites most of the other companies represented by the logos in that image? Leaks have confirmed that most of them are the subject of secret orders to turn over huge amounts of raw data to the government. They are all bound to secrecy by law, so without permission

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

On 7/31/2013 3:31 PM, Nathan wrote: And another thought - you know what unites most of the other companies represented by the logos in that image? Leaks have confirmed that most of them are the subject of secret orders to turn over huge amounts of raw data to the government. They are all bound to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 7:11 PM, Michael Snow wrote: > On 7/31/2013 3:31 PM, Nathan wrote: >> >> And another thought - you know what unites most of the other companies >> represented by the logos in that image? Leaks have confirmed that most >> of them are the subject of secret orders to turn over

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Michael Snow wrote: > >> Now if you imagine the puzzle globe on that slide implies that >> Wikipedia traffic is retained for intelligence analysis, it's a short >> hop to assume that the Wikimedia Foundation is also the subject of a >> blanket order transferring it

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

I think it's more reasonable to assume that > Wikipedia (which shares many features with Google, Yahoo, Twitter, > Facebook and other social networks) has been the subject of this kind > of demand than that it hasn't. No one with direct knowledge would be > able to do anything other than deny it, b

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Nathan wrote: > On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 7:11 PM, Michael Snow > wrote: > > On 7/31/2013 3:31 PM, Nathan wrote: > >> > >> And another thought - you know what unites most of the other companies > >> represented by the logos in that image? Leaks have confirmed that

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

I think it's more reasonable to assume that > Wikipedia (which shares many features with Google, Yahoo, Twitter, Facebook and other social networks) has been the subject of this kind of demand than that it hasn't. No one with direct knowledge would be able to do anything other than deny it, but we

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

On 07/31/2013 09:27 PM, Ryan Lane wrote: > I would be fired and jailed before I knowingly let that occur. If this was > the case I'd very surely not be working for Wikimedia Foundation. And very many of us live outside the jurisdiction of the entities that would be doing the monitoring and would b

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

On 07/31/2013 07:52 PM, Nathan wrote: > If anything, I think it's more reasonable to assume that > Wikipedia (which shares many features with Google, Yahoo, Twitter, > Facebook and other social networks) has been the subject of this kind > of demand than that it hasn't. You're also making an unwar

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

Also keep in mind that WMF has explicitly stated that they received no such demand. If they had, they still could say "If we had received such a demand, we couldn't legally discuss it", still comply with the order, and let us read between the lines. While I don't always agree with WMF, I have more

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

Nathan wrote: > >... It seems that most of the data they > collect is wiped within 3 days; that the data itself can only be > analyzed under a fairly specific set of minimization rules Are you referring to the 2009 Holder minimization rules which per http://m.newyorker.com/online/blogs/closere

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Ryan Lane wrote: > I would be fired and jailed before I knowingly let that occur. If this was > the case I'd very surely not be working for Wikimedia Foundation. > Key word there being "knowingly". ___ Wikimedia-l maili

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

On 01/08/13 14:15, Anthony wrote: > On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Ryan Lane wrote: > >> I would be fired and jailed before I knowingly let that occur. If this was >> the case I'd very surely not be working for Wikimedia Foundation. >> > > Key word there being "knowingly". I don't know why th

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Andreas Kolbe wrote: > I mean, look at how Jimbo sold the VisualEditor to the press at the start > of the roll-out: > > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/wikipedia/10196578/Wikipedia-introduces-new-features-to-entice-editors.html > > ---o0o--- > > “VisualEdito

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor

Op 2013/07/31 21:58, Erik Moeller schreef: There's a reason every start-up on the planet follows the idea of the Minimum Viable Product like a religion. If you had followed that, and understood that the Minimum Viable Product included cut-and-paste, table editing, and maybe the ability to succe

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

very helpful, james. thanks so much for clue-ing me in. definitely want to know more of the backstory on the chapters sometime. ttyt :) On Wednesday, July 31, 2013, Tim Starling wrote: > On 01/08/13 14:15, Anthony wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Ryan Lane > > > > wrote: > > > >> I wo

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

Whoops! :) That wasn't meant to be a reply-to-all. Sorry, everyone. Rookie mistake... :] On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 10:36 PM, Anna Koval wrote: > very helpful, james. thanks so much for clue-ing me in. definitely want > to know more of the backstory on the chapters sometime. ttyt :) > > > On Wedne

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

No, but presenting an appearance of surprise is a bit disingenuous. P - Original Message - From: "David Gerard" To: "Wikimedia Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 11:10 PM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA On 31 July 2013 21:47, Ryan Lane wrote: Why would we expect that we w

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

And "non-western" countries probably go further if their technological capacity allows it. If you are not being spied on by "somebody" it is because no-one could be bothered or they havent got around to it yet, not because any law protects your privacy. P - Original Message - From: "Na

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's have the courage to sit down and talk about VisualEditor

On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 10:24 PM, Kevin Wayne Williams < kwwilli...@kwwilliams.com> wrote: > If you had followed that, and understood that the Minimum Viable Product > included cut-and-paste, table editing, and maybe the ability to > successfully and completely edit the hundred or so most edited a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

Does the law actually require them to lie about data demands when questioned? P - Original Message - From: "Nathan" To: "Wikimedia Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 1:52 AM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 7:11 PM, Michael Snow wrote: On 7/31/201

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

Thanks, This answers my question. P - Original Message - From: "Luis Villa" To: "Wikimedia Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 2:13 AM Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Michael Snow wrote: Now if you imagine the puzzle globe on that slide

Re: [Wikimedia-l] NSA

On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 6:44 AM, Tim Starling wrote: > On 01/08/13 14:15, Anthony wrote: >> On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Ryan Lane wrote: >> >>> I would be fired and jailed before I knowingly let that occur. If this was >>> the case I'd very surely not be working for Wikimedia Foundation. >>>