Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2018-01-25 Thread Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l
i think many people might not understand what is the real problem here with this aspect in the general framework. I might make a brutal simplification, of course. In any case, if you manage to make the moment when a logged-in user is connected to a platform for the first time a secret, that

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2018-01-25 Thread John Erling Blad
Fine! If people refuse the easy way out, then create an Rfc, and start the process to make creation of new user accounts non-public information. Den fre. 26. jan. 2018, 03.04 skrev Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l < wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>: > you are not "exposing the user

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2018-01-25 Thread Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l
you are not "exposing the user unknowingly visiting the site" with the bot itself...when you visit the site you are integrated in the SUL, it's public information since ages. The fact that a bot takes care of it or a human being leaves a message does not tell you a lot more. Sometimes on

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2018-01-25 Thread John Erling Blad
I can't see that T42006 is relevant in this case. It is about abusive use of a bot, not about creation of the central account in itself. The existence of a central account leads to creation of the local account. This is probably acceptable. Then this may lead to the abusiv behavior, ie exposing

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2018-01-25 Thread Vi to
The information is so noisy (transclusions may trigger autocreation) and irrelevant (no information about pages, just wikis) I don't see an issue worth resolving. Vito 2018-01-25 22:54 GMT+01:00 Pine W : > Joe, > > I believe that the issue of a potential privacy violation

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2018-01-25 Thread Pine W
Joe, I believe that the issue of a potential privacy violation was first raised on this list on December 30th, and I first emailed WMF Legal about this issue on January 1st. Keeping in mind that the issue involves potential privacy violations, I think that it's reasonable to think that this issue

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2018-01-24 Thread John Erling Blad
If it has been discussed before, then it would be nice if someone can provide a pointer to that discussion. Den ons. 24. jan. 2018, 11.29 skrev Joseph Seddon : > This conversation started in the middle of the Christmas break following > which I suspect many staff took

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2018-01-24 Thread Joseph Seddon
This conversation started in the middle of the Christmas break following which I suspect many staff took extended holidays, most departments are in the middle annual planning and this week WMF are gathering for their annual all hands meetings. So lets firtst consider the fact that senior legal

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2018-01-23 Thread Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l
There are a lot of SUL issues that are waiting to be addressed. One for example is the definition of what is not "appropriate" as a name. Another one is a centralized interface for preferences, a third one is a centralized management of key user information, a forth one is the possibility to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2018-01-23 Thread Pine W
FYI for those on WIkimedia-l who may be interested, conversation about this matter is ongoing. I am waiting a response from WMF Legal, and there may be others who have opened their own lines of inquiry. If I don't receive a reply from WMF Legal that I feel is satisfactory, or if I don't receive

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2018-01-02 Thread Peter Southwood
Possibly because they have been busy with other things? Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Renée Bagslint Sent: 01 January 2018 00:10 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2018-01-01 Thread Vi to
I'm scared of the solutions that will "fix" this. I expect something as dramatically useful as the removal of "unblock this IP" button for IPs caught by autoblocks of registered users. Vito 2018-01-01 22:46 GMT+01:00 Pine W : > I have created

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2018-01-01 Thread Pine W
I have created https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T183876 and am pinging Legal to request a review of this matter. Happy new year, Pine ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2017-12-31 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
It may or may not be a coincidence, but today I heard a similar complaint from somebody who occasionally edits in Hebrew, and was freaked out by a welcome message that was sent after he simply read a page in the French Wikipedia. As Jonathan says, even if it is a privacy issue, it's not really a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2017-12-31 Thread Jonathan Morgan
What Quiddity said. If we're talking about impact on (good faith) new editors, yes, it's complicated but the bulk of the evidence points to certain kinds of welcomes[1][2] being effective at driving retention (every little bit helps), and others having no effect at all, and maybe a few approaches

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2017-12-30 Thread quiddity
On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 8:08 AM, John Erling Blad wrote: > As I recall, communication with newcomers by templates was found to be a > negative factor. > The results from past research are Not easy to summarize, and definitely not that simple, because of all the varying factors

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2017-12-30 Thread Richard Farmbrough
There are many million users registered in central auth. Most have not edited anywhere, and never even visited ar.wikipedia.org. welcoming these is actually harmful in a demonstrable way: readers will be notified of this useless welcome by email, or the notification tool. If this were multiplied

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2017-12-30 Thread John Erling Blad
Norwegians in general does not use welcoming phrases unless you are family, close friend, or want something from a person. Or as friend said it; you welcome your sister and mother to the family party, the guy that shall buy your old rusty car, and your girlfriend when she comes over and you want

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2017-12-30 Thread John Erling Blad
t; Regards > > Jonathan > > > > On 30 Dec 2017, at 13:38, wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org wrote: > > Message: 4 > > Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 10:29:34 +0200 > > From: "Amir E. Aharoni" <amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il> > > To: Wikimedia Mailing L

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2017-12-30 Thread Jonathan Cardy
Jonathan > On 30 Dec 2017, at 13:38, wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org wrote: > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 10:29:34 +0200 > From: "Amir E. Aharoni" <amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > Sub

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2017-12-30 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
Oh, I absolutely agree that there is an important cultural aspect here. That's why towards the end of the email I acknowledged that this has been done for many years. Nevertheless, it's worth occasionally stopping and thinking about the usefulness. These messages are supposed to be sent to new

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2017-12-30 Thread Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l
I am used to it, but some people are more paranoid than me, sometimes for good reasons. Cheers, Peter -Original Message- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Ting Chen Sent: 30 December 2017 11:38 To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject:

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2017-12-30 Thread Peter Southwood
, Peter -Original Message- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Ting Chen Sent: 30 December 2017 11:38 To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki Hello Amir, I think what you are questioning is right

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2017-12-30 Thread Ting Chen
Hello Amir, I think what you are questioning is right. And it is necessary to ask such questions. In my day job it is my duty to ask and discuss such questions with my customers. But, with the time I sort of see that these pure utilitarian questions are not the only questions that we need

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2017-12-30 Thread Amir E. Aharoni
It's a good opportunity to step back and discuss a little something. The existence of pretty much every bot is a reason to think of a missing feature in the site's software. The same goes for templates and gadgets. Why do many wikis have custom welcome templates and bots that send them? The

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2017-12-30 Thread Ting Chen
I cannot see malicious intention behind the use of the bot. If you don't feel spoken to, just ignore it. Why is this a so huge problem? Greetings Ting Am 29.12.2017 um 10:20 schrieb John Erling Blad: Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at arwiki. A bot at

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2017-12-29 Thread Samir Elsharbaty
Looping in the Arabic Wikipedia mailing list. FYI Samir Elsharbaty Communications|Wikimedia Foundation On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 5:02 AM, John Erling Blad wrote: > I've usually just don't bother with them, but lately I got complaints about > this specific bot, and the bot

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2017-12-29 Thread John Erling Blad
I've usually just don't bother with them, but lately I got complaints about this specific bot, and the bot operator neglect doing anything with the problem. That is why I raise the issue, as there are no other forum where users from one project can make a complaint about misbehaving users on

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2017-12-29 Thread John Erling Blad
Link on my email. On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 10:25 AM, K. Peachey wrote: > Have you asked the user how the finding the users? > Have you considered other steps than just jumping to mailing list? > Where are the complaints from the other users to show this is a long > running

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2017-12-29 Thread Isaac Olatunde
I am not sure this is something we should be discussing on this mailing list. Please, contact the bot operator or raise it with the arwiki community. Regards, Isaac. On Dec 29, 2017 10:26 AM, "K. Peachey" wrote: > Have you asked the user how the finding the users? > Have

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2017-12-29 Thread Vi to
I can estimate the number of welcomes I received to roughly 300, most of these languages I cannot even copypaste from. While these messages are useless for sure I don't see any reason to be bothered of them. Vito 2017-12-29 10:25 GMT+01:00 K. Peachey : > Have you asked the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2017-12-29 Thread Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l
Some reactions to welcome bot or welcomes are a little bit "exaggerated" sometimes. it's just a small red color spot in a corner. Two seconds to process it, more time to complain about it. I study user activities and sometimes I leave welcome messages here and there. 99.5% of the time is

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2017-12-29 Thread K. Peachey
Have you asked the user how the finding the users? Have you considered other steps than just jumping to mailing list? Where are the complaints from the other users to show this is a long running issue? On 29 December 2017 at 19:20, John Erling Blad wrote: > Users on other

[Wikimedia-l] Welcome messages at arwiki

2017-12-29 Thread John Erling Blad
Users on other projects are complaining about the welcome messages at arwiki. A bot at that project are welcoming people that has no activity at that project at all. The bot operator claims the activity is valid, but I can't see that this is a well-behaving bot at all.[1] I suspect the bot is