[Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program
Hi Folks (Some) students in the Pune pilot have copy-pasted copyright material onto their articles. We are taking these copyvios extremely seriously and here's a summary of the action that we have taken. a) Conducted classroom sessions in all 3 colleges where the program is running and conveying the importance of not making this mistake - and the fact that they will be caught - and that too quickly. Between Nitika and I, we've conducted sessions in at least 10 separate classes last week (along with Campus Ambassadors.) b) Conducted meetings with the directors and faculty members to convey the gravity of the issue and asking them to pass on the message to their students in the strongest possible terms. c) Almost doubling the number of Campus Ambassadors to provide more on-ground support for students. We will be sending out an update on this soon. The issue of copyvios was taken up specifically during the training for these Campus Ambassadors. d) Started work on establishing an Online Ambassador program (http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-September/004299.html) to provide additional support e) Disabled the leaderboard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:India_Education_Program/Leaderboard) so that we make sure that recognition is given only to deserving students. Controlling the copyvio issue is the single biggest issue for the program and we will continue to do everything it takes to minimize it. Of course, some students who will still try and cut corners and the actions listed above should hopefully reduce the problem. Having said all this, we must not cloud the fantastic work of many students by the errors committed by (some) newbies who are unfamiliar with Wikipedia. Do continue to support and celebrate the work of the good guys! Thank you for you continued support on this. Best hisham ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program
There are another way (who works fine in Brazilian program): Treat then as adults they are and the articles as projects. If I cheat in a project in any college in Brazil my professor would give me a zero. In some brazilians college I may be expelled for do that (without count the fact that is also a crime in Brazil). We (and they) need to realize how serious copyright violations are. But to make sure, i'm not saying you people to threat your students, but to make them realize how serious that is. _ *Béria Lima* *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. É isso o que estamos a fazer http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Nossos_projetos.* On 12 September 2011 08:46, Hisham Mundol hmun...@wikimedia.org wrote: Hi Folks (Some) students in the Pune pilot have copy-pasted copyright material onto their articles. We are taking these copyvios extremely seriously and here's a summary of the action that we have taken. a) Conducted classroom sessions in all 3 colleges where the program is running and conveying the importance of not making this mistake - and the fact that they will be caught - and that too quickly. Between Nitika and I, we've conducted sessions in at least 10 separate classes last week (along with Campus Ambassadors.) b) Conducted meetings with the directors and faculty members to convey the gravity of the issue and asking them to pass on the message to their students in the strongest possible terms. c) Almost doubling the number of Campus Ambassadors to provide more on-ground support for students. We will be sending out an update on this soon. The issue of copyvios was taken up specifically during the training for these Campus Ambassadors. d) Started work on establishing an Online Ambassador program ( http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-September/004299.html) to provide additional support e) Disabled the leaderboard ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:India_Education_Program/Leaderboard) so that we make sure that recognition is given only to deserving students. Controlling the copyvio issue is the single biggest issue for the program and we will continue to do everything it takes to minimize it. Of course, some students who will still try and cut corners and the actions listed above should hopefully reduce the problem. Having said all this, we must not cloud the fantastic work of many students by the errors committed by (some) newbies who are unfamiliar with Wikipedia. Do continue to support and celebrate the work of the good guys! Thank you for you continued support on this. Best hisham ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program
hisham On Sep 12, 2011, at 3:07 PM, Béria Lima wrote: There are another way (who works fine in Brazilian program): Treat then as adults they are and the articles as projects. If I cheat in a project in any college in Brazil my professor would give me a zero. In some brazilians college I may be expelled for do that (without count the fact that is also a crime in Brazil). We (and they) need to realize how serious copyright violations are. But to make sure, i'm not saying you people to threat your students, but to make them realize how serious that is. Hi Beria Agree with you - and my intention and actions are precisely to do what you said: to convey to students that this is a serious matter and they need to treat it with the seriousness that it deserves. (In terms of the specific academic approaches to be taken, that is a call that faculty and directors of the colleges will take; not us.) ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program
On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 15:48, Gautam John gau...@prathambooks.org wrote: I said that the current actions were overblown. No second thoughts on the issue and actions being taken. But I guess Gautam has a point here. This set of copyvios were detected very early(majorly ~50 students' edits were monitored and reported), others are not yet on editing mode still. 50 / 1000 is not some, but I would say few. But its key we take this seriously before it explodes to a scale we cant handle since Indian editors / newbies are already infamous for copyvios and we dont want to add more such folks. Apart from copyvios which can be detected since they are from online sources, quite a few students write bookishly (which makes me wonder if they are copying from local texts). I kind of feel(personal opinion) that *deadlines* , *marks* are making quite a few of them to treat this as yet another homework and in turn have the done and dusted attitude. Of course there have been some good contributions, but it has been rare for the population. -- Regards Srikanth.L ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program
hisham On Sep 12, 2011, at 3:11 PM, Gautam John wrote: On 12 September 2011 13:16, Hisham Mundol hmun...@wikimedia.org wrote: (Some) students in the Pune pilot have copy-pasted copyright material onto their articles. We are taking these copyvios extremely seriously and here's a summary of the action that we have taken. You know, Hisham, it's nice that the WMF takes this seriously but we might be over blowing it a tad too far. The WMFs policies work really well in a 1st world environment where there is great sensitivity to copyright and violations. In India, it's a different kettle of fish and we need to treat it as such. Yes, it is important to explain why copyvivos are important (and from an academic, plagiarism point of view too) but the bigger issue if intellectual honesty. I think they'll do just fine! I'm sure they'll do fine! I continue to remain optimistic and refuse to get cynical about it. …and I'll continue to celebrate some awesome awesome work. Maybe the tone of my message conveyed the wrong impression. The primary goal is to explain what a copyvio is, convey why copyvios are not to be done and how to write good quality articles - all in the context and spirit of better learning, more fun, intellectual honesty and the need to avoid academic plagiarism - so I'm with you on that. ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program
hisham On Sep 12, 2011, at 2:48 PM, Ashwin Baindur wrote: Hisham, Nice to hear the comprehensive way in which the copy violation issue is being addressed. Its better to nip this in the bud otherwise it could grow beyond control and also sully the good work being done by hundreds of students. :-) ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program
On 12 September 2011 16:00, Hisham Mundol hmun...@wikimedia.org wrote: and how to write good quality articles - all in the context and spirit of better learning, more fun, intellectual honesty and the need to avoid academic plagiarism - so I'm with you on that. You know, at the session we had on Copyrights in Bangalore, we had an excellent talk on the distinction between Copyright Violation and Plagiarism. I have video but sadly too big to fit on commons. Will try Youtube. Thank you. Best, Gautam http://blog.prathambooks.org/p/social-media.html ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program
Hisham Thank you for taking this seriously and for the prompt action . This had the potential to become a serious PR disaster for India in general and thankfully the actions taken seem to have stemmed the copyvio issues for now. On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 4:47 PM, Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Gautum On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 3:48 PM, Gautam John gau...@prathambooks.orgwrote: Hi Theo: I beg to differ Gautum. Since, it was made part of the curriculum this almost constitutes as cheating. I am not sure about lofty first world standards but You seem to have missed this: Yes, it is important to explain why copyvivos are important (and from an academic, plagiarism point of view too) but the bigger issue if intellectual honesty. Copyright violations aren't only important from an academic plagiarism point of view but also legal and ethical, you seem to be only focusing on text based violation in Academia maybe. Commons users and admins spend the better part of their time educating themselves and dealing with these violations from different countries not because of some honesty issues but real legal ones.Violations more often than not, can lead to court cases, damages and expose the project to liability. I never really distinguished what Media I was referring to in regards of Copyright violation, in case of Video and Music, you might want to read different variation of DMCA, along with the take-down notices that WMF has already complied with located here[1]. For images, I can attest to spending several hundred hours talking on IRC and looking for copyright terms of different countries to comply with. It is something people I know take very seriously. I am not sure if Intellectual honesty means ethics in this context but I would disagree if that is what WMF and other Wikipedians would be concerned about, it's really the legal liability that they expose WMF and projects to. Maybe Hisham can clarify. Second, if we don't uphold the WMF policies (they are actually project policies, not the foundation's) in an officially sanctioned and financed program, then who will? Again, you are raising a straw-man here. I did not say do not respect copyrights. I said that the current actions were overblown. We might disagree on this but I do carry an activists perspective here and respect your position and what the WMF has to do to limit liability too. As I saw it, you stated that copyright violations are no big deal, especially in India and the more important thing is being honest (Intellectually) when someone plagiarizes or something to that effect. Correct me if I based my assumptions wrong or if this straw-man is alive. If you read my comment again, I never allege that you said not to respect copyrights. I was referring to your perception of this issue being overblown and not as important. I also did say, these issues are more important when it is the WMF at the helm conducting these programs. I am well aware of your position as a open-source book publisher and a Creative commons hero along with someone I respect, that was why I found your position very surprising on this issue. Also, Hi Hisham, Nice to see you avoided replying to my comment alone. ;) Theo [1]http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Category:DMCA ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program
On 12 September 2011 16:47, Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com wrote: Copyright violations aren't only important from an academic plagiarism point of view but also legal and ethical, you seem to be only focusing on text based violation in Academia maybe. Commons users and admins spend the better part of their time educating themselves and dealing with these violations from different countries not because of some honesty issues but real legal ones.Violations more often than not, can lead to court cases, damages and expose the project to liability. No doubt but the Commons/Source model is broken for cases like India where documents are in the public domain here but not in the USA. That said, I digress. I agree with you on the legal issues around copyvio and it is important from the WMF's point of view since they carry the can on this. What I was uncomfortable with was what I saw as perhaps an over-reaction to the issue. Sure, rather safe than sorry is a possible answer but it's not one I favour because we tend to err too much on the side of caution. already complied with located here[1]. For images, I can attest to spending several hundred hours talking on IRC and looking for copyright terms of different countries to comply with. No doubt, Theo and it's very important work too. seriously. I am not sure if Intellectual honesty means ethics in this context but I would disagree if that is what WMF and other Wikipedians would be concerned about, it's really the legal liability that they expose WMF and projects to. Maybe Hisham can clarify. Here's is what I was highlighting - yes, the issue of copyvio is important but given that this was in the context of an educational program, the larger issue ought to have been in the context of education - plagiarism and intellectual honesty and then about copyvio. If you're going to talk about copyvio as the most important element within an education program, it has a bearing on issues outside of just the Wikimedia movement and is a much larger discussion. Second, if we don't uphold the WMF policies (they are actually project policies, not the foundation's) in an officially sanctioned and financed program, then who will? Again - I'm not saying they don't matter. I'm saying the priorities are not in order. As I saw it, you stated that copyright violations are no big deal, especially in India and the more important thing is being honest (Intellectually) when someone plagiarizes or something to that effect. I think I have explained myself, above. Copyvio is important but in the current context, there are other elements that should have first been considered. I am well aware of your position as a open-source book publisher and a Creative commons hero along with someone I respect, that was why I found your position very surprising on this issue. Appreciate your kind words, Theo. ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program
Hi Hisham, Can you please inform the people who are regularly editing Indian Articles about the Online Ambassador program before closing the dates for the same ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_India/New_articles (only new article alert system I know) Thanks, Naveen Francis On 12 September 2011 16:52, Bala Jeyaraman sodabot...@gmail.com wrote: Hisham Thank you for taking this seriously and for the prompt action . This had the potential to become a serious PR disaster for India in general and thankfully the actions taken seem to have stemmed the copyvio issues for now. On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 4:47 PM, Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Gautum On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 3:48 PM, Gautam John gau...@prathambooks.orgwrote: Hi Theo: I beg to differ Gautum. Since, it was made part of the curriculum this almost constitutes as cheating. I am not sure about lofty first world standards but You seem to have missed this: Yes, it is important to explain why copyvivos are important (and from an academic, plagiarism point of view too) but the bigger issue if intellectual honesty. Copyright violations aren't only important from an academic plagiarism point of view but also legal and ethical, you seem to be only focusing on text based violation in Academia maybe. Commons users and admins spend the better part of their time educating themselves and dealing with these violations from different countries not because of some honesty issues but real legal ones.Violations more often than not, can lead to court cases, damages and expose the project to liability. I never really distinguished what Media I was referring to in regards of Copyright violation, in case of Video and Music, you might want to read different variation of DMCA, along with the take-down notices that WMF has already complied with located here[1]. For images, I can attest to spending several hundred hours talking on IRC and looking for copyright terms of different countries to comply with. It is something people I know take very seriously. I am not sure if Intellectual honesty means ethics in this context but I would disagree if that is what WMF and other Wikipedians would be concerned about, it's really the legal liability that they expose WMF and projects to. Maybe Hisham can clarify. Second, if we don't uphold the WMF policies (they are actually project policies, not the foundation's) in an officially sanctioned and financed program, then who will? Again, you are raising a straw-man here. I did not say do not respect copyrights. I said that the current actions were overblown. We might disagree on this but I do carry an activists perspective here and respect your position and what the WMF has to do to limit liability too. As I saw it, you stated that copyright violations are no big deal, especially in India and the more important thing is being honest (Intellectually) when someone plagiarizes or something to that effect. Correct me if I based my assumptions wrong or if this straw-man is alive. If you read my comment again, I never allege that you said not to respect copyrights. I was referring to your perception of this issue being overblown and not as important. I also did say, these issues are more important when it is the WMF at the helm conducting these programs. I am well aware of your position as a open-source book publisher and a Creative commons hero along with someone I respect, that was why I found your position very surprising on this issue. Also, Hi Hisham, Nice to see you avoided replying to my comment alone. ;) Theo [1]http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Category:DMCA ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program
I agree with Gautam in that just copyvio is not the issue. It is the issue of copyright violation, plagiarism and intellectual dishonesty. It needs to be tackled by teaching the skills of citation, paraphrasing and the many acceptable and unacceptable ways to reflect copied text and ideas in Wikipedia articles. Warm regards, Ashwin Baindur -- On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 4:57 PM, Gautam John gau...@prathambooks.orgwrote: On 12 September 2011 16:47, Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com wrote: Copyright violations aren't only important from an academic plagiarism point of view but also legal and ethical, you seem to be only focusing on text based violation in Academia maybe. Commons users and admins spend the better part of their time educating themselves and dealing with these violations from different countries not because of some honesty issues but real legal ones.Violations more often than not, can lead to court cases, damages and expose the project to liability. No doubt but the Commons/Source model is broken for cases like India where documents are in the public domain here but not in the USA. That said, I digress. I agree with you on the legal issues around copyvio and it is important from the WMF's point of view since they carry the can on this. What I was uncomfortable with was what I saw as perhaps an over-reaction to the issue. Sure, rather safe than sorry is a possible answer but it's not one I favour because we tend to err too much on the side of caution. already complied with located here[1]. For images, I can attest to spending several hundred hours talking on IRC and looking for copyright terms of different countries to comply with. No doubt, Theo and it's very important work too. seriously. I am not sure if Intellectual honesty means ethics in this context but I would disagree if that is what WMF and other Wikipedians would be concerned about, it's really the legal liability that they expose WMF and projects to. Maybe Hisham can clarify. Here's is what I was highlighting - yes, the issue of copyvio is important but given that this was in the context of an educational program, the larger issue ought to have been in the context of education - plagiarism and intellectual honesty and then about copyvio. If you're going to talk about copyvio as the most important element within an education program, it has a bearing on issues outside of just the Wikimedia movement and is a much larger discussion. Second, if we don't uphold the WMF policies (they are actually project policies, not the foundation's) in an officially sanctioned and financed program, then who will? Again - I'm not saying they don't matter. I'm saying the priorities are not in order. As I saw it, you stated that copyright violations are no big deal, especially in India and the more important thing is being honest (Intellectually) when someone plagiarizes or something to that effect. I think I have explained myself, above. Copyvio is important but in the current context, there are other elements that should have first been considered. I am well aware of your position as a open-source book publisher and a Creative commons hero along with someone I respect, that was why I found your position very surprising on this issue. Appreciate your kind words, Theo. ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program
On Sep 12, 2011, at 4:47 PM, Theo10011 wrote: I am not sure if Intellectual honesty means ethics in this context but I would disagree if that is what WMF and other Wikipedians would be concerned about, it's really the legal liability that they expose WMF and projects to. Maybe Hisham can clarify. To be fair, the actions taken were in in the context that this is an education program - and it's important that the benefits that students can accrue - of stronger research, better writing and improved critical thinking skills - are actually realized by students. This is what we are trying to encourage. Copy-pasting will not add any value to students. I am well aware of your position as a open-source book publisher and a Creative commons hero along with someone I respect, that was why I found your position very surprising on this issue. Also, Hi Hisham, Nice to see you avoided replying to my comment alone. ;) Hello Theo! I shall shortly make amends for this remiss... Theo [1]http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Category:DMCA ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program
On Sep 12, 2011, at 3:33 PM, Theo10011 wrote: I beg to differ Gautum. Since, it was made part of the curriculum this almost constitutes as cheating. I am not sure about lofty first world standards but I would be failed for cheating just about anywhere in the world. It's taking a while for some newbie student editors to figure out how to edit Wikipedia - and aspects like citation and paraphrasing. They're working at - and I have personally met a bunch of them who're working really hard at it. Some are struggling with English. Some are struggling with getting computer / Internet access. Some are struggling with markups. …but they're working at it! Second, if we don't uphold the WMF policies (they are actually project policies, not the foundation's) in an officially sanctioned and financed program, then who will? If we were to take this idea further, why respect any local copyright at all? or at least the one in Global South. We can just add copyrighted images and books right off from anywhere, forget about CC or any attempt at working on Open-source licenses. As always, I agree with Beria. If those student were to be graded for this project, they should be failed. This aspect is solely at the discretion of the faculty - as it should be. I do know that faculty members are taking it seriously. ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Copyright Violations by (some) Students: Wikipedia India Education Program
On Sep 12, 2011, at 5:01 PM, Naveen Francis wrote: Hi Hisham, Can you please inform the people who are regularly editing Indian Articles about the Online Ambassador program before closing the dates for the same ? Sure, Navin. The application form is at https://docs.google.com/a/wikimedia.org/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dEdtdG5ObU9mMm5oZno3MExDc3lEZHc6MA For context on this, pls see http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-September/004299.html ___ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
