Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
I thought that one wouldn't have enough horse power to push the 200 to 300 megs aggregate that we expect to see. marlon - Original Message - From: Jeff Broadwick jeffl...@comcast.net To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul BTW, we can do 12/24 volt DC with the R1 that we were discussing. Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul I'll tell you what my perfect tower site router would be for this. PC based, runs on 12vdc (so we can run everything from car batteries) and has gigE ethernet ports by the gross. Then we can route or bridge as needed based on the requirements of the distribution radio that's plugged into it. Lots of processor and memory power this way too! Maybe based on a Dell server Am I dreaming? marlon - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul RB493 limits ports to 100 fdx, If he is going licensed, theradios might be upgraded in the future to higher speeds... I would go RB1000 Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Mikrotik makes pretty good gear. Depending on traffic, I'd put an RB493AH in there. Should be able to do anything you needed to do without great concern for the weather. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:19 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Right. I get that part. But I've never used it out here so I don't know if it's a routing function or a bridging function like spanning tree. I'm trying to figure out what hardware would be best deployed at the tower sites. Part of what I'm trying to do is get a grip on long term costs. If I have to run sensitive routers vs. hardened switches it'll make a difference. Adding heat and AC to the towers changes the annual costs quite a bit. thanks, marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul OSPF is how you manage load sharing and load balancing. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:36 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Certainly Jack. I don't know anyone that's built something like this already though. And, it's really not that far off from what we already do. It's just bigger and faster. I've not used the hardware needed for this system so I'm mostly interested in what people would install. I know there are a few people here that have very high speed backbone systems in place. The one part that's got me stumped so far is what to do to create a load sharing load balancing mechanism at the main towers. Should that be done via high end switch or router? If you know someone that would be good help in putting this idea together please feel free to have them contact me. Please note, that nothing will be able to happen at a nut and bolt specific level until construction starts. The program is customer and land acquisition specific, not build it THIS way specific. Did I say that at all clearly? Does it make sense? That is part of why I've not even looked for help yet, there are far more questions than plans in place. Things are still at a conceptual stage, but I'm trying to drill down a bit better. Thanks! marlon - Original Message - From: Jack Unger To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Marlon, Trying to design a complex system like this via a listserve committee is more than a little bit risky. Have you considered going to someone who actually has this type of network design experience and paying them to do the whole job right the first time? Just asking. jack Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I don't know if I'll be able
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
Yes, that's the plan. More of a mesh backhaul vs. hub and spoke or ring. We want a web with multiple paths from one side of the project to the other. marlon - Original Message - From: John Thomas jtho...@quarnet.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Are any of the towers setup such that you could cross the circle? In other words, if you had towers 1 to 20 in a ring, have a secondary link between towers 4 and 16 for instance. This would require routing, and preferably dynamic routing, but then you would have some redundancy. John Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I don't know if I'll be able to put some many antennas on the towers. How close together would I need the towers to prevent the rain fade outage at 18 gig? Aren't there any 5.8 systems that will do this reliably in the first place? I shouldn't need 5.x for distribution so I could use it all for backhaul. I'll have 2.4, 3.65, 4.9 and hopefully, someday, TVBD for the consumers. marlon - Original Message - From: Brian Webster bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul The 5.8 GHz backup links will help you deal with outages due to environmental conditions such as rain fade. That has to be factored in for links when you operate above 10 GHz. Even if you run a loop configuration you could have a fade condition that could block out a whole tower site severing your links to that location in both directions of your loop. Another path at a lower frequency with spatial diversity from your primary link (different mounting heights) would at least keep that site up though maybe not at full speed. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Thanks. Do you think we need the unlicensed for each hop if the entire network is build in a circle? marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Licensed 18ghz links with 5.8ghz backup links for each hop. Figure $15,000 per link for everything. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Hi All, I'm looking for some gear that'll be rock solid at 15 to 20 miles. Some links may be less, but I'm not counting on that. I'll be hauling public safety, private vpns, and normal internet traffic. I'll probably have around 20 towers, all linked in a ring. I can load share across the ring as long as speeds never drop below 100megs. I'll want things to be automatically self healing if there is a loss of connectivity in any direction. What would you guys use/suggest? I'd love to go licensed (but no 6 gig due to antenna sizes) but unlicensed may be OK due to the failover capabilities. We have to worry about snow, fog and, worst of all, dust storms. What gear would you use? How would you set this up? I'm in the pricing stage so off list quotes etc. are welcome. Pall park numbers are fine at this time, as long as they tend to run high vs. low, I'd rather over estimate the costs. thanks, marlon - --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ - --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
It doesn't. You would use the Rebel in those locations. The R1 is for the lower traffic sites. Jeff ImageStream -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 10:11 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul I thought that one wouldn't have enough horse power to push the 200 to 300 megs aggregate that we expect to see. marlon - Original Message - From: Jeff Broadwick jeffl...@comcast.net To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul BTW, we can do 12/24 volt DC with the R1 that we were discussing. Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul I'll tell you what my perfect tower site router would be for this. PC based, runs on 12vdc (so we can run everything from car batteries) and has gigE ethernet ports by the gross. Then we can route or bridge as needed based on the requirements of the distribution radio that's plugged into it. Lots of processor and memory power this way too! Maybe based on a Dell server Am I dreaming? marlon - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul RB493 limits ports to 100 fdx, If he is going licensed, theradios might be upgraded in the future to higher speeds... I would go RB1000 Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Mikrotik makes pretty good gear. Depending on traffic, I'd put an RB493AH in there. Should be able to do anything you needed to do without great concern for the weather. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:19 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Right. I get that part. But I've never used it out here so I don't know if it's a routing function or a bridging function like spanning tree. I'm trying to figure out what hardware would be best deployed at the tower sites. Part of what I'm trying to do is get a grip on long term costs. If I have to run sensitive routers vs. hardened switches it'll make a difference. Adding heat and AC to the towers changes the annual costs quite a bit. thanks, marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul OSPF is how you manage load sharing and load balancing. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:36 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Certainly Jack. I don't know anyone that's built something like this already though. And, it's really not that far off from what we already do. It's just bigger and faster. I've not used the hardware needed for this system so I'm mostly interested in what people would install. I know there are a few people here that have very high speed backbone systems in place. The one part that's got me stumped so far is what to do to create a load sharing load balancing mechanism at the main towers. Should that be done via high end switch or router? If you know someone that would be good help in putting this idea together please feel free to have them contact me. Please note, that nothing will be able to happen at a nut and bolt specific level until construction starts. The program is customer and land acquisition specific, not build it THIS way specific. Did I say that at all clearly? Does it make sense? That is part of why I've not even looked for help yet, there are far more questions than plans in place. Things are still at a conceptual stage, but I'm trying to drill down a bit better. Thanks! marlon - Original Message - From: Jack Unger To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
We have the ring configuration with licensed links running OSPF without backups on the individual links. We spec our links to be as close to 99.999% at full modulation as possible. We continue to try to create loops in the network. For example, if you have a high-end commercial customer, sell them a backup link to another tower as part of the package. You've now created another link between towers and added another loop to your network. On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 1:06 AM, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com wrote: Marlon, Trying to design a complex system like this via a listserve committee is more than a little bit risky. Have you considered going to someone who actually has this type of network design experience and paying them to do the whole job right the first time? Just asking. jack - Show quoted text - Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I don't know if I'll be able to put some many antennas on the towers. How close together would I need the towers to prevent the rain fade outage at 18 gig? Aren't there any 5.8 systems that will do this reliably in the first place? I shouldn't need 5.x for distribution so I could use it all for backhaul. I'll have 2.4, 3.65, 4.9 and hopefully, someday, TVBD for the consumers. marlon - Original Message - From: Brian Webster bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul The 5.8 GHz backup links will help you deal with outages due to environmental conditions such as rain fade. That has to be factored in for links when you operate above 10 GHz. Even if you run a loop configuration you could have a fade condition that could block out a whole tower site severing your links to that location in both directions of your loop. Another path at a lower frequency with spatial diversity from your primary link (different mounting heights) would at least keep that site up though maybe not at full speed. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Thanks. Do you think we need the unlicensed for each hop if the entire network is build in a circle? marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Licensed 18ghz links with 5.8ghz backup links for each hop. Figure $15,000 per link for everything. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Hi All, I'm looking for some gear that'll be rock solid at 15 to 20 miles. Some links may be less, but I'm not counting on that. I'll be hauling public safety, private vpns, and normal internet traffic. I'll probably have around 20 towers, all linked in a ring. I can load share across the ring as long as speeds never drop below 100megs. I'll want things to be automatically self healing if there is a loss of connectivity in any direction. What would you guys use/suggest? I'd love to go licensed (but no 6 gig due to antenna sizes) but unlicensed may be OK due to the failover capabilities. We have to worry about snow, fog and, worst of all, dust storms. What gear would you use? How would you set this up? I'm in the pricing stage so off list quotes etc. are welcome. Pall park numbers are fine at this time, as long as they tend to run high vs. low, I'd rather over estimate the costs. thanks, marlon - --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ - --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
Marlon, Honestly, based on the questions you are asking, I think you may be in over your head on this project. You may want to seek some help from someone that has actually done this type of work and knows what they are doing. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Thanks. Do you think we need the unlicensed for each hop if the entire network is build in a circle? marlon - Original Message - From: "Travis Johnson" t...@ida.net To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Licensed 18ghz links with 5.8ghz backup links for each hop. Figure $15,000 per link for everything. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Hi All, I'm looking for some gear that'll be rock solid at 15 to 20 miles. Some links may be less, but I'm not counting on that. I'll be hauling public safety, private vpns, and normal internet traffic. I'll probably have around 20 towers, all linked in a ring. I can load share across the ring as long as speeds never drop below 100megs. I'll want things to be automatically self healing if there is a loss of connectivity in any direction. What would you guys use/suggest? I'd love to go licensed (but no 6 gig due to antenna sizes) but unlicensed may be OK due to the failover capabilities. We have to worry about snow, fog and, worst of all, dust storms. What gear would you use? How would you set this up? I'm in the pricing stage so off list quotes etc. are welcome. Pall park numbers are fine at this time, as long as they tend to run high vs. low, I'd rather over estimate the costs. thanks, marlon WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
OSPF is how you manage load sharing and load balancing. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:36 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Certainly Jack. I don't know anyone that's built something like this already though. And, it's really not that far off from what we already do. It's just bigger and faster. I've not used the hardware needed for this system so I'm mostly interested in what people would install. I know there are a few people here that have very high speed backbone systems in place. The one part that's got me stumped so far is what to do to create a load sharing load balancing mechanism at the main towers. Should that be done via high end switch or router? If you know someone that would be good help in putting this idea together please feel free to have them contact me. Please note, that nothing will be able to happen at a nut and bolt specific level until construction starts. The program is customer and land acquisition specific, not build it THIS way specific. Did I say that at all clearly? Does it make sense? That is part of why I've not even looked for help yet, there are far more questions than plans in place. Things are still at a conceptual stage, but I'm trying to drill down a bit better. Thanks! marlon - Original Message - From: Jack Unger To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Marlon, Trying to design a complex system like this via a listserve committee is more than a little bit risky. Have you considered going to someone who actually has this type of network design experience and paying them to do the whole job right the first time? Just asking. jack Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I don't know if I'll be able to put some many antennas on the towers. How close together would I need the towers to prevent the rain fade outage at 18 gig? Aren't there any 5.8 systems that will do this reliably in the first place? I shouldn't need 5.x for distribution so I could use it all for backhaul. I'll have 2.4, 3.65, 4.9 and hopefully, someday, TVBD for the consumers. marlon - Original Message - From: Brian Webster bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul The 5.8 GHz backup links will help you deal with outages due to environmental conditions such as rain fade. That has to be factored in for links when you operate above 10 GHz. Even if you run a loop configuration you could have a fade condition that could block out a whole tower site severing your links to that location in both directions of your loop. Another path at a lower frequency with spatial diversity from your primary link (different mounting heights) would at least keep that site up though maybe not at full speed. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Thanks. Do you think we need the unlicensed for each hop if the entire network is build in a circle? marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Licensed 18ghz links with 5.8ghz backup links for each hop. Figure $15,000 per link for everything. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Hi All, I'm looking for some gear that'll be rock solid at 15 to 20 miles. Some links may be less, but I'm not counting on that. I'll be hauling public safety, private vpns, and normal internet traffic. I'll probably have around 20 towers, all linked in a ring. I can load share across the ring as long as speeds never drop below 100megs. I'll want things to be automatically self healing if there is a loss of connectivity in any direction. What would you guys use/suggest? I'd love to go licensed (but no 6 gig due to antenna sizes) but unlicensed may be OK due to the failover capabilities. We have to worry about snow, fog and, worst of all, dust storms. What gear would you use? How would you set this up? I'm in the pricing stage so off list quotes etc. are welcome. Pall park numbers are fine at this time, as long as they tend to run high vs. low, I'd rather over estimate the costs. thanks, marlon - --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
I liked the idea of running a bridged backhaul. Is that not practical for this? I'm hoping to have much lower latency and administrative overhead (less routes to try and keep track of). thanks, marlon - Original Message - From: can...@believewireless.net p...@believewireless.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 4:52 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul We have the ring configuration with licensed links running OSPF without backups on the individual links. We spec our links to be as close to 99.999% at full modulation as possible. We continue to try to create loops in the network. For example, if you have a high-end commercial customer, sell them a backup link to another tower as part of the package. You've now created another link between towers and added another loop to your network. On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 1:06 AM, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com wrote: Marlon, Trying to design a complex system like this via a listserve committee is more than a little bit risky. Have you considered going to someone who actually has this type of network design experience and paying them to do the whole job right the first time? Just asking. jack - Show quoted text - Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I don't know if I'll be able to put some many antennas on the towers. How close together would I need the towers to prevent the rain fade outage at 18 gig? Aren't there any 5.8 systems that will do this reliably in the first place? I shouldn't need 5.x for distribution so I could use it all for backhaul. I'll have 2.4, 3.65, 4.9 and hopefully, someday, TVBD for the consumers. marlon - Original Message - From: Brian Webster bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul The 5.8 GHz backup links will help you deal with outages due to environmental conditions such as rain fade. That has to be factored in for links when you operate above 10 GHz. Even if you run a loop configuration you could have a fade condition that could block out a whole tower site severing your links to that location in both directions of your loop. Another path at a lower frequency with spatial diversity from your primary link (different mounting heights) would at least keep that site up though maybe not at full speed. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Thanks. Do you think we need the unlicensed for each hop if the entire network is build in a circle? marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Licensed 18ghz links with 5.8ghz backup links for each hop. Figure $15,000 per link for everything. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Hi All, I'm looking for some gear that'll be rock solid at 15 to 20 miles. Some links may be less, but I'm not counting on that. I'll be hauling public safety, private vpns, and normal internet traffic. I'll probably have around 20 towers, all linked in a ring. I can load share across the ring as long as speeds never drop below 100megs. I'll want things to be automatically self healing if there is a loss of connectivity in any direction. What would you guys use/suggest? I'd love to go licensed (but no 6 gig due to antenna sizes) but unlicensed may be OK due to the failover capabilities. We have to worry about snow, fog and, worst of all, dust storms. What gear would you use? How would you set this up? I'm in the pricing stage so off list quotes etc. are welcome. Pall park numbers are fine at this time, as long as they tend to run high vs. low, I'd rather over estimate the costs. thanks, marlon - --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ - --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
Grin. You could well be right. I'm certainly into some new ground here. I'm interested in people's opinions and what they've done (if anyone has of yet) in the past. I can learn and figure this out. It's interesting to me too. But if you know of someone that is available for hire I may be able to put them to use here. I'd rather not forget to ask questions or massively underestimate the costs involved! thanks, marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 6:36 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Marlon, Honestly, based on the questions you are asking, I think you may be in over your head on this project. You may want to seek some help from someone that has actually done this type of work and knows what they are doing. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Thanks. Do you think we need the unlicensed for each hop if the entire network is build in a circle? marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Licensed 18ghz links with 5.8ghz backup links for each hop. Figure $15,000 per link for everything. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Hi All, I'm looking for some gear that'll be rock solid at 15 to 20 miles. Some links may be less, but I'm not counting on that. I'll be hauling public safety, private vpns, and normal internet traffic. I'll probably have around 20 towers, all linked in a ring. I can load share across the ring as long as speeds never drop below 100megs. I'll want things to be automatically self healing if there is a loss of connectivity in any direction. What would you guys use/suggest? I'd love to go licensed (but no 6 gig due to antenna sizes) but unlicensed may be OK due to the failover capabilities. We have to worry about snow, fog and, worst of all, dust storms. What gear would you use? How would you set this up? I'm in the pricing stage so off list quotes etc. are welcome. Pall park numbers are fine at this time, as long as they tend to run high vs. low, I'd rather over estimate the costs. thanks, marlon WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
A little difficult to do load balancing on a bridge. No way to determine where the traffic goes. You still have to manage STP (Spanning Tree Protocol) to some degree to make sure you don't get loops. You don't have to administer routes after initial setup with OSPF. That is the point, OSPF determines the route to use and the data moves. Depends on equipment used whether routed or bridged has lower latency. A fast router can move data faster than a slow bridge/hub/switch. Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I liked the idea of running a bridged backhaul. Is that not practical for this? I'm hoping to have much lower latency and administrative overhead (less routes to try and keep track of). thanks, marlon - Original Message - From: can...@believewireless.net p...@believewireless.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 4:52 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul We have the ring configuration with licensed links running OSPF without backups on the individual links. We spec our links to be as close to 99.999% at full modulation as possible. We continue to try to create loops in the network. For example, if you have a high-end commercial customer, sell them a backup link to another tower as part of the package. You've now created another link between towers and added another loop to your network. On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 1:06 AM, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com wrote: Marlon, Trying to design a complex system like this via a listserve committee is more than a little bit risky. Have you considered going to someone who actually has this type of network design experience and paying them to do the whole job right the first time? Just asking. jack - Show quoted text - Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I don't know if I'll be able to put some many antennas on the towers. How close together would I need the towers to prevent the rain fade outage at 18 gig? Aren't there any 5.8 systems that will do this reliably in the first place? I shouldn't need 5.x for distribution so I could use it all for backhaul. I'll have 2.4, 3.65, 4.9 and hopefully, someday, TVBD for the consumers. marlon - Original Message - From: Brian Webster bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul The 5.8 GHz backup links will help you deal with outages due to environmental conditions such as rain fade. That has to be factored in for links when you operate above 10 GHz. Even if you run a loop configuration you could have a fade condition that could block out a whole tower site severing your links to that location in both directions of your loop. Another path at a lower frequency with spatial diversity from your primary link (different mounting heights) would at least keep that site up though maybe not at full speed. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Thanks. Do you think we need the unlicensed for each hop if the entire network is build in a circle? marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Licensed 18ghz links with 5.8ghz backup links for each hop. Figure $15,000 per link for everything. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Hi All, I'm looking for some gear that'll be rock solid at 15 to 20 miles. Some links may be less, but I'm not counting on that. I'll be hauling public safety, private vpns, and normal internet traffic. I'll probably have around 20 towers, all linked in a ring. I can load share across the ring as long as speeds never drop below 100megs. I'll want things to be automatically self healing if there is a loss of connectivity in any direction. What would you guys use/suggest? I'd love to go licensed (but no 6 gig due to antenna sizes) but unlicensed may be OK due to the failover capabilities. We have to worry about snow, fog and, worst of all, dust storms. What gear would you use? How would you set this up? I'm in the pricing stage so off list quotes etc. are welcome. Pall park numbers are fine at this time, as long as they tend to run high vs. low, I'd rather over estimate the costs. thanks, marlon - --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ - --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Certainly Jack. I don't know anyone that's built something like this already though. And, it's really not that far off from what we already do. It's just bigger and faster. I've not used the hardware needed for this system so I'm mostly interested in what people would install. I know there are a few people here that have very high speed backbone systems in place. The one part that's got me stumped so far is what to do to create a load sharing load balancing mechanism at the main towers. Should that be done via high end switch or router? I'd suggest using a router at each main tower. That can provide the load sharing/balancing plus the other network management functions that you will need. I'd suggest contacting Dennis Burgess or Butch Evans and paying either of them for a few hours of consulting services now so you can get a first-pass network design that can be fine-tuned later. It will save you a lot of time and frustration and give you the knowledge and confidence that you need now to move forward efficiently. If you know someone that would be good help in putting this idea together please feel free to have them contact me. Please note, that nothing will be able to happen at a nut and bolt specific level until construction starts. The program is customer and land acquisition specific, not build it THIS way specific. Did I say that at all clearly? Does it make sense? That is part of why I've not even looked for help yet, there are far more questions than plans in place. Things are still at a conceptual stage, but I'm trying to drill down a bit better. Thanks! marlon - Original Message - From: Jack Unger To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Marlon, Trying to design a complex system like this via a listserve committee is more than a little bit risky. Have you considered going to someone who actually has this type of network design experience and paying them to do the whole job right the first time? Just asking. jack Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I don't know if I'll be able to put some many antennas on the towers. How close together would I need the towers to prevent the rain fade outage at 18 gig? Aren't there any 5.8 systems that will do this reliably in the first place? I shouldn't need 5.x for distribution so I could use it all for backhaul. I'll have 2.4, 3.65, 4.9 and hopefully, someday, TVBD for the consumers. marlon - Original Message - From: Brian Webster bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul The 5.8 GHz backup links will help you deal with outages due to environmental conditions such as rain fade. That has to be factored in for links when you operate above 10 GHz. Even if you run a loop configuration you could have a fade condition that could block out a whole tower site severing your links to that location in both directions of your loop. Another path at a lower frequency with spatial diversity from your primary link (different mounting heights) would at least keep that site up though maybe not at full speed. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Thanks. Do you think we need the unlicensed for each hop if the entire network is build in a circle? marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Licensed 18ghz links with 5.8ghz backup links for each hop. Figure $15,000 per link for everything. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Hi All, I'm looking for some gear that'll be rock solid at 15 to 20 miles. Some links may be less, but I'm not counting on that. I'll be hauling public safety, private vpns, and normal internet traffic. I'll probably have around 20 towers, all linked in a ring. I can load share across the ring as long as speeds never drop below 100megs. I'll want things to be automatically self healing if there is a loss of connectivity in any direction. What would you guys use/suggest? I'd love to go licensed (but no 6 gig due to antenna sizes) but unlicensed may be OK due to the failover capabilities. We have to worry about snow, fog and, worst of all, dust storms. What gear would you use? How would you set this up? I'm in the pricing stage so off list quotes etc. are welcome. Pall park numbers are fine at this time, as long as they tend to run high vs. low, I'd rather over
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
Right. I get that part. But I've never used it out here so I don't know if it's a routing function or a bridging function like spanning tree. I'm trying to figure out what hardware would be best deployed at the tower sites. Part of what I'm trying to do is get a grip on long term costs. If I have to run sensitive routers vs. hardened switches it'll make a difference. Adding heat and AC to the towers changes the annual costs quite a bit. thanks, marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul OSPF is how you manage load sharing and load balancing. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:36 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Certainly Jack. I don't know anyone that's built something like this already though. And, it's really not that far off from what we already do. It's just bigger and faster. I've not used the hardware needed for this system so I'm mostly interested in what people would install. I know there are a few people here that have very high speed backbone systems in place. The one part that's got me stumped so far is what to do to create a load sharing load balancing mechanism at the main towers. Should that be done via high end switch or router? If you know someone that would be good help in putting this idea together please feel free to have them contact me. Please note, that nothing will be able to happen at a nut and bolt specific level until construction starts. The program is customer and land acquisition specific, not build it THIS way specific. Did I say that at all clearly? Does it make sense? That is part of why I've not even looked for help yet, there are far more questions than plans in place. Things are still at a conceptual stage, but I'm trying to drill down a bit better. Thanks! marlon - Original Message - From: Jack Unger To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Marlon, Trying to design a complex system like this via a listserve committee is more than a little bit risky. Have you considered going to someone who actually has this type of network design experience and paying them to do the whole job right the first time? Just asking. jack Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I don't know if I'll be able to put some many antennas on the towers. How close together would I need the towers to prevent the rain fade outage at 18 gig? Aren't there any 5.8 systems that will do this reliably in the first place? I shouldn't need 5.x for distribution so I could use it all for backhaul. I'll have 2.4, 3.65, 4.9 and hopefully, someday, TVBD for the consumers. marlon - Original Message - From: Brian Webster bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul The 5.8 GHz backup links will help you deal with outages due to environmental conditions such as rain fade. That has to be factored in for links when you operate above 10 GHz. Even if you run a loop configuration you could have a fade condition that could block out a whole tower site severing your links to that location in both directions of your loop. Another path at a lower frequency with spatial diversity from your primary link (different mounting heights) would at least keep that site up though maybe not at full speed. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Thanks. Do you think we need the unlicensed for each hop if the entire network is build in a circle? marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Licensed 18ghz links with 5.8ghz backup links for each hop. Figure $15,000 per link for everything. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Hi All, I'm looking for some gear that'll be rock solid at 15 to 20 miles. Some links may be less, but I'm not counting on that. I'll be hauling public safety, private vpns, and normal internet traffic. I'll probably have around 20 towers, all linked in a ring. I can load share across the ring as long as speeds never drop below 100megs. I'll want things to be automatically self
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
You will need routing. Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Right. I get that part. But I've never used it out here so I don't know if it's a routing function or a bridging function like spanning tree. I'm trying to figure out what hardware would be best deployed at the tower sites. Part of what I'm trying to do is get a grip on long term costs. If I have to run sensitive routers vs. hardened switches it'll make a difference. Adding heat and AC to the towers changes the annual costs quite a bit. thanks, marlon - Original Message - From: "Mike Hammett" wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul OSPF is how you manage load sharing and load balancing. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: "Marlon K. Schafer" o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:36 AM To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Certainly Jack. I don't know anyone that's built something like this already though. And, it's really not that far off from what we already do. It's just bigger and faster. I've not used the hardware needed for this system so I'm mostly interested in what people would install. I know there are a few people here that have very high speed backbone systems in place. The one part that's got me stumped so far is what to do to create a load sharing load balancing mechanism at the main towers. Should that be done via high end switch or router? If you know someone that would be good help in putting this idea together please feel free to have them contact me. Please note, that nothing will be able to happen at a nut and bolt specific level until construction starts. The program is customer and land acquisition specific, not build it THIS way specific. Did I say that at all clearly? Does it make sense? That is part of why I've not even looked for help yet, there are far more questions than plans in place. Things are still at a conceptual stage, but I'm trying to drill down a bit better. Thanks! marlon - Original Message - From: Jack Unger To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Marlon, Trying to design a complex system like this via a listserve "committee" is more than a little bit risky. Have you considered going to someone who actually has this type of network design experience and paying them to do the whole job right the first time? Just asking. jack Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I don't know if I'll be able to put some many antennas on the towers. How close together would I need the towers to prevent the rain fade outage at 18 gig? Aren't there any 5.8 systems that will do this reliably in the first place? I shouldn't need 5.x for distribution so I could use it all for backhaul. I'll have 2.4, 3.65, 4.9 and hopefully, someday, TVBD for the consumers. marlon - Original Message - From: "Brian Webster" bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul The 5.8 GHz backup links will help you deal with outages due to environmental conditions such as rain fade. That has to be factored in for links when you operate above 10 GHz. Even if you run a loop configuration you could have a fade condition that could block out a whole tower site severing your links to that location in both directions of your loop. Another path at a lower frequency with spatial diversity from your primary link (different mounting heights) would at least keep that site up though maybe not at full speed. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Thanks. Do you think we need the unlicensed for each hop if the entire network is build in a circle? marlon - Original Message - From: "Travis Johnson" t...@ida.net To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Licensed 18ghz links with 5.8ghz backup links for each hop. Figure $15,000 per link for everything. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Hi All, I'm looking for some gear that'll be rock solid at 15 to 20 miles. Some links may be less, but I'm not counting on that. I'll be hauling public safety, private vpns, and normal internet traffic. I'll probably have around 20 towers, all linked in a ring. I can load share across the r
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
You can buy a hardenend L3 Switch that would perform OSPF Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:19 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Right. I get that part. But I've never used it out here so I don't know if it's a routing function or a bridging function like spanning tree. I'm trying to figure out what hardware would be best deployed at the tower sites. Part of what I'm trying to do is get a grip on long term costs. If I have to run sensitive routers vs. hardened switches it'll make a difference. Adding heat and AC to the towers changes the annual costs quite a bit. thanks, marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul OSPF is how you manage load sharing and load balancing. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:36 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Certainly Jack. I don't know anyone that's built something like this already though. And, it's really not that far off from what we already do. It's just bigger and faster. I've not used the hardware needed for this system so I'm mostly interested in what people would install. I know there are a few people here that have very high speed backbone systems in place. The one part that's got me stumped so far is what to do to create a load sharing load balancing mechanism at the main towers. Should that be done via high end switch or router? If you know someone that would be good help in putting this idea together please feel free to have them contact me. Please note, that nothing will be able to happen at a nut and bolt specific level until construction starts. The program is customer and land acquisition specific, not build it THIS way specific. Did I say that at all clearly? Does it make sense? That is part of why I've not even looked for help yet, there are far more questions than plans in place. Things are still at a conceptual stage, but I'm trying to drill down a bit better. Thanks! marlon - Original Message - From: Jack Unger To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Marlon, Trying to design a complex system like this via a listserve committee is more than a little bit risky. Have you considered going to someone who actually has this type of network design experience and paying them to do the whole job right the first time? Just asking. jack Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I don't know if I'll be able to put some many antennas on the towers. How close together would I need the towers to prevent the rain fade outage at 18 gig? Aren't there any 5.8 systems that will do this reliably in the first place? I shouldn't need 5.x for distribution so I could use it all for backhaul. I'll have 2.4, 3.65, 4.9 and hopefully, someday, TVBD for the consumers. marlon - Original Message - From: Brian Webster bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul The 5.8 GHz backup links will help you deal with outages due to environmental conditions such as rain fade. That has to be factored in for links when you operate above 10 GHz. Even if you run a loop configuration you could have a fade condition that could block out a whole tower site severing your links to that location in both directions of your loop. Another path at a lower frequency with spatial diversity from your primary link (different mounting heights) would at least keep that site up though maybe not at full speed. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Thanks. Do you think we need the unlicensed for each hop if the entire network is build in a circle? marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Licensed 18ghz links with 5.8ghz backup links for each hop. Figure $15,000 per link for everything. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
Butch does a lot of work for me already. I'll touch base with him. Do you see anything here that you'd be a good resource for? laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 8:11 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Certainly Jack. I don't know anyone that's built something like this already though. And, it's really not that far off from what we already do. It's just bigger and faster. I've not used the hardware needed for this system so I'm mostly interested in what people would install. I know there are a few people here that have very high speed backbone systems in place. The one part that's got me stumped so far is what to do to create a load sharing load balancing mechanism at the main towers. Should that be done via high end switch or router? I'd suggest using a router at each main tower. That can provide the load sharing/balancing plus the other network management functions that you will need. I'd suggest contacting Dennis Burgess or Butch Evans and paying either of them for a few hours of consulting services now so you can get a first-pass network design that can be fine-tuned later. It will save you a lot of time and frustration and give you the knowledge and confidence that you need now to move forward efficiently. If you know someone that would be good help in putting this idea together please feel free to have them contact me. Please note, that nothing will be able to happen at a nut and bolt specific level until construction starts. The program is customer and land acquisition specific, not build it THIS way specific. Did I say that at all clearly? Does it make sense? That is part of why I've not even looked for help yet, there are far more questions than plans in place. Things are still at a conceptual stage, but I'm trying to drill down a bit better. Thanks! marlon - Original Message - From: Jack Unger To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Marlon, Trying to design a complex system like this via a listserve committee is more than a little bit risky. Have you considered going to someone who actually has this type of network design experience and paying them to do the whole job right the first time? Just asking. jack Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I don't know if I'll be able to put some many antennas on the towers. How close together would I need the towers to prevent the rain fade outage at 18 gig? Aren't there any 5.8 systems that will do this reliably in the first place? I shouldn't need 5.x for distribution so I could use it all for backhaul. I'll have 2.4, 3.65, 4.9 and hopefully, someday, TVBD for the consumers. marlon - Original Message - From: Brian Webster bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul The 5.8 GHz backup links will help you deal with outages due to environmental conditions such as rain fade. That has to be factored in for links when you operate above 10 GHz. Even if you run a loop configuration you could have a fade condition that could block out a whole tower site severing your links to that location in both directions of your loop. Another path at a lower frequency with spatial diversity from your primary link (different mounting heights) would at least keep that site up though maybe not at full speed. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Thanks. Do you think we need the unlicensed for each hop if the entire network is build in a circle? marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Licensed 18ghz links with 5.8ghz backup links for each hop. Figure $15,000 per link for everything. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Hi All, I'm looking for some gear that'll be rock solid at 15 to 20 miles. Some links may be less, but I'm not counting on that. I'll be hauling public safety, private vpns, and normal internet traffic. I'll probably have around 20 towers, all linked in a ring. I can load share across the ring as long as speeds never drop below 100megs. I'll want things to be automatically self healing if there is a loss of connectivity in any direction. What would you guys use/suggest? I'd love to go licensed (but no 6 gig due to antenna sizes
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
Mikrotik makes pretty good gear. Depending on traffic, I'd put an RB493AH in there. Should be able to do anything you needed to do without great concern for the weather. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:19 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Right. I get that part. But I've never used it out here so I don't know if it's a routing function or a bridging function like spanning tree. I'm trying to figure out what hardware would be best deployed at the tower sites. Part of what I'm trying to do is get a grip on long term costs. If I have to run sensitive routers vs. hardened switches it'll make a difference. Adding heat and AC to the towers changes the annual costs quite a bit. thanks, marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul OSPF is how you manage load sharing and load balancing. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:36 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Certainly Jack. I don't know anyone that's built something like this already though. And, it's really not that far off from what we already do. It's just bigger and faster. I've not used the hardware needed for this system so I'm mostly interested in what people would install. I know there are a few people here that have very high speed backbone systems in place. The one part that's got me stumped so far is what to do to create a load sharing load balancing mechanism at the main towers. Should that be done via high end switch or router? If you know someone that would be good help in putting this idea together please feel free to have them contact me. Please note, that nothing will be able to happen at a nut and bolt specific level until construction starts. The program is customer and land acquisition specific, not build it THIS way specific. Did I say that at all clearly? Does it make sense? That is part of why I've not even looked for help yet, there are far more questions than plans in place. Things are still at a conceptual stage, but I'm trying to drill down a bit better. Thanks! marlon - Original Message - From: Jack Unger To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Marlon, Trying to design a complex system like this via a listserve committee is more than a little bit risky. Have you considered going to someone who actually has this type of network design experience and paying them to do the whole job right the first time? Just asking. jack Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I don't know if I'll be able to put some many antennas on the towers. How close together would I need the towers to prevent the rain fade outage at 18 gig? Aren't there any 5.8 systems that will do this reliably in the first place? I shouldn't need 5.x for distribution so I could use it all for backhaul. I'll have 2.4, 3.65, 4.9 and hopefully, someday, TVBD for the consumers. marlon - Original Message - From: Brian Webster bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul The 5.8 GHz backup links will help you deal with outages due to environmental conditions such as rain fade. That has to be factored in for links when you operate above 10 GHz. Even if you run a loop configuration you could have a fade condition that could block out a whole tower site severing your links to that location in both directions of your loop. Another path at a lower frequency with spatial diversity from your primary link (different mounting heights) would at least keep that site up though maybe not at full speed. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Thanks. Do you think we need the unlicensed for each hop if the entire network is build in a circle? marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Licensed 18ghz links with 5.8ghz backup
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
RB493 limits ports to 100 fdx, If he is going licensed, theradios might be upgraded in the future to higher speeds... I would go RB1000 Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Mikrotik makes pretty good gear. Depending on traffic, I'd put an RB493AH in there. Should be able to do anything you needed to do without great concern for the weather. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:19 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Right. I get that part. But I've never used it out here so I don't know if it's a routing function or a bridging function like spanning tree. I'm trying to figure out what hardware would be best deployed at the tower sites. Part of what I'm trying to do is get a grip on long term costs. If I have to run sensitive routers vs. hardened switches it'll make a difference. Adding heat and AC to the towers changes the annual costs quite a bit. thanks, marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul OSPF is how you manage load sharing and load balancing. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:36 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Certainly Jack. I don't know anyone that's built something like this already though. And, it's really not that far off from what we already do. It's just bigger and faster. I've not used the hardware needed for this system so I'm mostly interested in what people would install. I know there are a few people here that have very high speed backbone systems in place. The one part that's got me stumped so far is what to do to create a load sharing load balancing mechanism at the main towers. Should that be done via high end switch or router? If you know someone that would be good help in putting this idea together please feel free to have them contact me. Please note, that nothing will be able to happen at a nut and bolt specific level until construction starts. The program is customer and land acquisition specific, not build it THIS way specific. Did I say that at all clearly? Does it make sense? That is part of why I've not even looked for help yet, there are far more questions than plans in place. Things are still at a conceptual stage, but I'm trying to drill down a bit better. Thanks! marlon - Original Message - From: Jack Unger To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Marlon, Trying to design a complex system like this via a listserve committee is more than a little bit risky. Have you considered going to someone who actually has this type of network design experience and paying them to do the whole job right the first time? Just asking. jack Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I don't know if I'll be able to put some many antennas on the towers. How close together would I need the towers to prevent the rain fade outage at 18 gig? Aren't there any 5.8 systems that will do this reliably in the first place? I shouldn't need 5.x for distribution so I could use it all for backhaul. I'll have 2.4, 3.65, 4.9 and hopefully, someday, TVBD for the consumers. marlon - Original Message - From: Brian Webster bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul The 5.8 GHz backup links will help you deal with outages due to environmental conditions such as rain fade. That has to be factored in for links when you operate above 10 GHz. Even if you run a loop configuration you could have a fade condition that could block out a whole tower site severing your links to that location in both directions of your loop. Another path at a lower frequency with spatial diversity from your primary link (different mounting heights) would at least keep that site up though maybe not at full speed. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Marlon K
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
Marlon, I can assist with any of the unlicensed (2.4, 5.8) or light-licensed (3.65) or 4.9 RF design work. Since you will be carrying public safety traffic, I'd go licensed on the backbone with 5.8 GHz backup as Travis and Brian suggest. For those full-licensed links I'd suggest contacting and comparing quotes from at least two companies that are experienced distributors of licensed equipment. jack Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Butch does a lot of work for me already. I'll touch base with him. Do you see anything here that you'd be a good resource for? laters, marlon - Original Message - From: "Jack Unger" jun...@ask-wi.com To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 8:11 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Certainly Jack. I don't know anyone that's built something like this already though. And, it's really not that far off from what we already do. It's just bigger and faster. I've not used the hardware needed for this system so I'm mostly interested in what people would install. I know there are a few people here that have very high speed backbone systems in place. The one part that's got me stumped so far is what to do to create a load sharing load balancing mechanism at the main towers. Should that be done via high end switch or router? I'd suggest using a router at each main tower. That can provide the load sharing/balancing plus the other network management functions that you will need. I'd suggest contacting Dennis Burgess or Butch Evans and paying either of them for a few hours of consulting services now so you can get a first-pass network design that can be fine-tuned later. It will save you a lot of time and frustration and give you the knowledge and confidence that you need now to move forward efficiently. If you know someone that would be good help in putting this idea together please feel free to have them contact me. Please note, that nothing will be able to happen at a nut and bolt specific level until construction starts. The program is customer and land acquisition specific, not build it THIS way specific. Did I say that at all clearly? Does it make sense? That is part of why I've not even looked for help yet, there are far more questions than plans in place. Things are still at a conceptual stage, but I'm trying to drill down a bit better. Thanks! marlon - Original Message - From: Jack Unger To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Marlon, Trying to design a complex system like this via a listserve "committee" is more than a little bit risky. Have you considered going to someone who actually has this type of network design experience and paying them to do the whole job right the first time? Just asking. jack Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I don't know if I'll be able to put some many antennas on the towers. How close together would I need the towers to prevent the rain fade outage at 18 gig? Aren't there any 5.8 systems that will do this reliably in the first place? I shouldn't need 5.x for distribution so I could use it all for backhaul. I'll have 2.4, 3.65, 4.9 and hopefully, someday, TVBD for the consumers. marlon - Original Message - From: "Brian Webster" bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul The 5.8 GHz backup links will help you deal with outages due to environmental conditions such as rain fade. That has to be factored in for links when you operate above 10 GHz. Even if you run a loop configuration you could have a fade condition that could block out a whole tower site severing your links to that location in both directions of your loop. Another path at a lower frequency with spatial diversity from your primary link (different mounting heights) would at least keep that site up though maybe not at full speed. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Thanks. Do you think we need the unlicensed for each hop if the entire network is build in a circle? marlon - Original Message - From: "Travis Johnson" t...@ida.net To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Licensed 18ghz links with 5.8ghz backup links for each hop. Figure $15,000 per link for everything. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Hi All, I'm looking for some gear that'll be rock solid at 15 to
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
Then perhaps depending on port count required, the RB450 supports Gigabit, though I don't know what it's throughput is capable of. I'm not sure on the RB1000's outdoor ability. I'm not saying it's no good, I just don't know. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:47 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul RB493 limits ports to 100 fdx, If he is going licensed, theradios might be upgraded in the future to higher speeds... I would go RB1000 Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Mikrotik makes pretty good gear. Depending on traffic, I'd put an RB493AH in there. Should be able to do anything you needed to do without great concern for the weather. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:19 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Right. I get that part. But I've never used it out here so I don't know if it's a routing function or a bridging function like spanning tree. I'm trying to figure out what hardware would be best deployed at the tower sites. Part of what I'm trying to do is get a grip on long term costs. If I have to run sensitive routers vs. hardened switches it'll make a difference. Adding heat and AC to the towers changes the annual costs quite a bit. thanks, marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul OSPF is how you manage load sharing and load balancing. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:36 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Certainly Jack. I don't know anyone that's built something like this already though. And, it's really not that far off from what we already do. It's just bigger and faster. I've not used the hardware needed for this system so I'm mostly interested in what people would install. I know there are a few people here that have very high speed backbone systems in place. The one part that's got me stumped so far is what to do to create a load sharing load balancing mechanism at the main towers. Should that be done via high end switch or router? If you know someone that would be good help in putting this idea together please feel free to have them contact me. Please note, that nothing will be able to happen at a nut and bolt specific level until construction starts. The program is customer and land acquisition specific, not build it THIS way specific. Did I say that at all clearly? Does it make sense? That is part of why I've not even looked for help yet, there are far more questions than plans in place. Things are still at a conceptual stage, but I'm trying to drill down a bit better. Thanks! marlon - Original Message - From: Jack Unger To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Marlon, Trying to design a complex system like this via a listserve committee is more than a little bit risky. Have you considered going to someone who actually has this type of network design experience and paying them to do the whole job right the first time? Just asking. jack Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I don't know if I'll be able to put some many antennas on the towers. How close together would I need the towers to prevent the rain fade outage at 18 gig? Aren't there any 5.8 systems that will do this reliably in the first place? I shouldn't need 5.x for distribution so I could use it all for backhaul. I'll have 2.4, 3.65, 4.9 and hopefully, someday, TVBD for the consumers. marlon - Original Message - From: Brian Webster bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul The 5.8 GHz backup links will help you deal with outages due to environmental conditions such as rain fade. That has to be factored in for links when you
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
I'll tell you what my perfect tower site router would be for this. PC based, runs on 12vdc (so we can run everything from car batteries) and has gigE ethernet ports by the gross. Then we can route or bridge as needed based on the requirements of the distribution radio that's plugged into it. Lots of processor and memory power this way too! Maybe based on a Dell server Am I dreaming? marlon - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul RB493 limits ports to 100 fdx, If he is going licensed, theradios might be upgraded in the future to higher speeds... I would go RB1000 Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Mikrotik makes pretty good gear. Depending on traffic, I'd put an RB493AH in there. Should be able to do anything you needed to do without great concern for the weather. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:19 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Right. I get that part. But I've never used it out here so I don't know if it's a routing function or a bridging function like spanning tree. I'm trying to figure out what hardware would be best deployed at the tower sites. Part of what I'm trying to do is get a grip on long term costs. If I have to run sensitive routers vs. hardened switches it'll make a difference. Adding heat and AC to the towers changes the annual costs quite a bit. thanks, marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul OSPF is how you manage load sharing and load balancing. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:36 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Certainly Jack. I don't know anyone that's built something like this already though. And, it's really not that far off from what we already do. It's just bigger and faster. I've not used the hardware needed for this system so I'm mostly interested in what people would install. I know there are a few people here that have very high speed backbone systems in place. The one part that's got me stumped so far is what to do to create a load sharing load balancing mechanism at the main towers. Should that be done via high end switch or router? If you know someone that would be good help in putting this idea together please feel free to have them contact me. Please note, that nothing will be able to happen at a nut and bolt specific level until construction starts. The program is customer and land acquisition specific, not build it THIS way specific. Did I say that at all clearly? Does it make sense? That is part of why I've not even looked for help yet, there are far more questions than plans in place. Things are still at a conceptual stage, but I'm trying to drill down a bit better. Thanks! marlon - Original Message - From: Jack Unger To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Marlon, Trying to design a complex system like this via a listserve committee is more than a little bit risky. Have you considered going to someone who actually has this type of network design experience and paying them to do the whole job right the first time? Just asking. jack Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I don't know if I'll be able to put some many antennas on the towers. How close together would I need the towers to prevent the rain fade outage at 18 gig? Aren't there any 5.8 systems that will do this reliably in the first place? I shouldn't need 5.x for distribution so I could use it all for backhaul. I'll have 2.4, 3.65, 4.9 and hopefully, someday, TVBD for the consumers. marlon - Original Message - From: Brian Webster bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul The 5.8 GHz backup links will help you deal with outages due to environmental
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
That would be the upcomming RB450G, Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Then perhaps depending on port count required, the RB450 supports Gigabit, though I don't know what it's throughput is capable of. I'm not sure on the RB1000's outdoor ability. I'm not saying it's no good, I just don't know. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:47 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul RB493 limits ports to 100 fdx, If he is going licensed, theradios might be upgraded in the future to higher speeds... I would go RB1000 Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Mikrotik makes pretty good gear. Depending on traffic, I'd put an RB493AH in there. Should be able to do anything you needed to do without great concern for the weather. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:19 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Right. I get that part. But I've never used it out here so I don't know if it's a routing function or a bridging function like spanning tree. I'm trying to figure out what hardware would be best deployed at the tower sites. Part of what I'm trying to do is get a grip on long term costs. If I have to run sensitive routers vs. hardened switches it'll make a difference. Adding heat and AC to the towers changes the annual costs quite a bit. thanks, marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul OSPF is how you manage load sharing and load balancing. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:36 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Certainly Jack. I don't know anyone that's built something like this already though. And, it's really not that far off from what we already do. It's just bigger and faster. I've not used the hardware needed for this system so I'm mostly interested in what people would install. I know there are a few people here that have very high speed backbone systems in place. The one part that's got me stumped so far is what to do to create a load sharing load balancing mechanism at the main towers. Should that be done via high end switch or router? If you know someone that would be good help in putting this idea together please feel free to have them contact me. Please note, that nothing will be able to happen at a nut and bolt specific level until construction starts. The program is customer and land acquisition specific, not build it THIS way specific. Did I say that at all clearly? Does it make sense? That is part of why I've not even looked for help yet, there are far more questions than plans in place. Things are still at a conceptual stage, but I'm trying to drill down a bit better. Thanks! marlon - Original Message - From: Jack Unger To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Marlon, Trying to design a complex system like this via a listserve committee is more than a little bit risky. Have you considered going to someone who actually has this type of network design experience and paying them to do the whole job right the first time? Just asking. jack Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I don't know if I'll be able to put some many antennas on the towers. How close together would I need the towers to prevent the rain fade outage at 18 gig? Aren't there any 5.8 systems that will do this reliably in the first place? I shouldn't need 5.x for distribution so I could use it all for backhaul. I'll have 2.4, 3.65, 4.9 and hopefully, someday, TVBD for the consumers
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
Yes you are A dell server running DC will requiere tons of Amps ... Take a look at the offerings of Mikrotik Routerboard series: www.routerboard.com Specifically the RB450G and RB1000 both have gige ports, very low dc power consuption and at least enough CPU/Ram to run OSPF, BGP, even MPLS in the 100 mbps range ... Butch should be able configure them with OSPF and off you go .. For licensed Link I would look into Dragonwave Horizon Compact's or Trango Apex units Unlicensed Backups.. Motorola PTP 600 units Man this project starst to sound like my backbone! Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul I'll tell you what my perfect tower site router would be for this. PC based, runs on 12vdc (so we can run everything from car batteries) and has gigE ethernet ports by the gross. Then we can route or bridge as needed based on the requirements of the distribution radio that's plugged into it. Lots of processor and memory power this way too! Maybe based on a Dell server Am I dreaming? marlon - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul RB493 limits ports to 100 fdx, If he is going licensed, theradios might be upgraded in the future to higher speeds... I would go RB1000 Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Mikrotik makes pretty good gear. Depending on traffic, I'd put an RB493AH in there. Should be able to do anything you needed to do without great concern for the weather. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:19 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Right. I get that part. But I've never used it out here so I don't know if it's a routing function or a bridging function like spanning tree. I'm trying to figure out what hardware would be best deployed at the tower sites. Part of what I'm trying to do is get a grip on long term costs. If I have to run sensitive routers vs. hardened switches it'll make a difference. Adding heat and AC to the towers changes the annual costs quite a bit. thanks, marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul OSPF is how you manage load sharing and load balancing. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:36 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Certainly Jack. I don't know anyone that's built something like this already though. And, it's really not that far off from what we already do. It's just bigger and faster. I've not used the hardware needed for this system so I'm mostly interested in what people would install. I know there are a few people here that have very high speed backbone systems in place. The one part that's got me stumped so far is what to do to create a load sharing load balancing mechanism at the main towers. Should that be done via high end switch or router? If you know someone that would be good help in putting this idea together please feel free to have them contact me. Please note, that nothing will be able to happen at a nut and bolt specific level until construction starts. The program is customer and land acquisition specific, not build it THIS way specific. Did I say that at all clearly? Does it make sense? That is part of why I've not even looked for help yet, there are far more questions than plans in place. Things are still at a conceptual stage, but I'm trying to drill down a bit better. Thanks! marlon - Original Message - From: Jack Unger To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Marlon, Trying to design a complex system like this via a listserve committee is more than
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
The RB1000s we've used have worked well in outdoor environments. We've had them in cases so hot we have burned ourselves touching them. However, to start, I'd start with the new RB450Gs from Mikrotik. They are cheap and should handle about 200+Mbps w/OSPF running.If you need BGP, definitely go with the PoweRouter from Dennis Burgess at Linktech since it's dual core. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
Right - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 11:56 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul That would be the upcomming RB450G, Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Then perhaps depending on port count required, the RB450 supports Gigabit, though I don't know what it's throughput is capable of. I'm not sure on the RB1000's outdoor ability. I'm not saying it's no good, I just don't know. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:47 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul RB493 limits ports to 100 fdx, If he is going licensed, theradios might be upgraded in the future to higher speeds... I would go RB1000 Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Mikrotik makes pretty good gear. Depending on traffic, I'd put an RB493AH in there. Should be able to do anything you needed to do without great concern for the weather. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:19 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Right. I get that part. But I've never used it out here so I don't know if it's a routing function or a bridging function like spanning tree. I'm trying to figure out what hardware would be best deployed at the tower sites. Part of what I'm trying to do is get a grip on long term costs. If I have to run sensitive routers vs. hardened switches it'll make a difference. Adding heat and AC to the towers changes the annual costs quite a bit. thanks, marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul OSPF is how you manage load sharing and load balancing. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:36 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Certainly Jack. I don't know anyone that's built something like this already though. And, it's really not that far off from what we already do. It's just bigger and faster. I've not used the hardware needed for this system so I'm mostly interested in what people would install. I know there are a few people here that have very high speed backbone systems in place. The one part that's got me stumped so far is what to do to create a load sharing load balancing mechanism at the main towers. Should that be done via high end switch or router? If you know someone that would be good help in putting this idea together please feel free to have them contact me. Please note, that nothing will be able to happen at a nut and bolt specific level until construction starts. The program is customer and land acquisition specific, not build it THIS way specific. Did I say that at all clearly? Does it make sense? That is part of why I've not even looked for help yet, there are far more questions than plans in place. Things are still at a conceptual stage, but I'm trying to drill down a bit better. Thanks! marlon - Original Message - From: Jack Unger To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Marlon, Trying to design a complex system like this via a listserve committee is more than a little bit risky. Have you considered going to someone who actually has this type of network design experience and paying them to do the whole job right the first time? Just asking. jack Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I don't know if I'll be able to put some many antennas
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
Not only is the power consumption an issue for servers, they are designed for a office environment. They run best at 68-75F, lots of air flow. Servers generate a lot of heat. Less if they are green, but still a lot compared to other devices. They also have way too many moving parts. Disk drives and fans are usually the first things to die because they move. And both are critical to the operation of the server. I would recommend something without moving parts and designed for DC operation, though not 12VDC. Probably due to lower current requirements, I find most gear works better at 24VDC than 12VDC. Car batteries are still an option, you just put 2 in series for 24VDC. Though here again, I would use batteries designed for what you are doing. Car batteries are designed for a high current, short duration usage, then charge for a while. You need batteries that are designed to provide low current for a long time and that can be fully discharged repeatedly without degradation. Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I'll tell you what my perfect tower site router would be for this. PC based, runs on 12vdc (so we can run everything from car batteries) and has gigE ethernet ports by the gross. Then we can route or bridge as needed based on the requirements of the distribution radio that's plugged into it. Lots of processor and memory power this way too! Maybe based on a Dell server Am I dreaming? marlon - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul RB493 limits ports to 100 fdx, If he is going licensed, theradios might be upgraded in the future to higher speeds... I would go RB1000 Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Mikrotik makes pretty good gear. Depending on traffic, I'd put an RB493AH in there. Should be able to do anything you needed to do without great concern for the weather. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:19 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Right. I get that part. But I've never used it out here so I don't know if it's a routing function or a bridging function like spanning tree. I'm trying to figure out what hardware would be best deployed at the tower sites. Part of what I'm trying to do is get a grip on long term costs. If I have to run sensitive routers vs. hardened switches it'll make a difference. Adding heat and AC to the towers changes the annual costs quite a bit. thanks, marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul OSPF is how you manage load sharing and load balancing. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:36 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Certainly Jack. I don't know anyone that's built something like this already though. And, it's really not that far off from what we already do. It's just bigger and faster. I've not used the hardware needed for this system so I'm mostly interested in what people would install. I know there are a few people here that have very high speed backbone systems in place. The one part that's got me stumped so far is what to do to create a load sharing load balancing mechanism at the main towers. Should that be done via high end switch or router? If you know someone that would be good help in putting this idea together please feel free to have them contact me. Please note, that nothing will be able to happen at a nut and bolt specific level until construction starts. The program is customer and land acquisition specific, not build it THIS way specific. Did I say that at all clearly? Does it make sense? That is part of why I've not even looked for help yet, there are far more questions than plans in place. Things are still at a conceptual stage, but I'm trying to drill down a bit better. Thanks! marlon - Original Message - From: Jack Unger To: WISPA General List
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
You are right with the main line of severs. Something to keep in mind is that the PowerRouter's only moving parts are the fans to keep the CPU and Power supply cool . We have DC units now as well. The units run about 85 watts of power normally. * --- Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer WISPA Board Member - wispa.org http://www.wispa.org/ Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services WISPA Vendor Member* *Office*: 314-735-0270 *Website*: http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/ */LIVE On-Line Mikrotik Training/* http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp The information transmitted (including attachments) is covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. 2510-2521, is intended only for the person(s) or entity/entities to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient(s) is prohibited, If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Scott Reed wrote: Not only is the power consumption an issue for servers, they are designed for a office environment. They run best at 68-75F, lots of air flow. Servers generate a lot of heat. Less if they are green, but still a lot compared to other devices. They also have way too many moving parts. Disk drives and fans are usually the first things to die because they move. And both are critical to the operation of the server. I would recommend something without moving parts and designed for DC operation, though not 12VDC. Probably due to lower current requirements, I find most gear works better at 24VDC than 12VDC. Car batteries are still an option, you just put 2 in series for 24VDC. Though here again, I would use batteries designed for what you are doing. Car batteries are designed for a high current, short duration usage, then charge for a while. You need batteries that are designed to provide low current for a long time and that can be fully discharged repeatedly without degradation. Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I'll tell you what my perfect tower site router would be for this. PC based, runs on 12vdc (so we can run everything from car batteries) and has gigE ethernet ports by the gross. Then we can route or bridge as needed based on the requirements of the distribution radio that's plugged into it. Lots of processor and memory power this way too! Maybe based on a Dell server Am I dreaming? marlon - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul RB493 limits ports to 100 fdx, If he is going licensed, theradios might be upgraded in the future to higher speeds... I would go RB1000 Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Mikrotik makes pretty good gear. Depending on traffic, I'd put an RB493AH in there. Should be able to do anything you needed to do without great concern for the weather. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:19 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Right. I get that part. But I've never used it out here so I don't know if it's a routing function or a bridging function like spanning tree. I'm trying to figure out what hardware would be best deployed at the tower sites. Part of what I'm trying to do is get a grip on long term costs. If I have to run sensitive routers vs. hardened switches it'll make a difference. Adding heat and AC to the towers changes the annual costs quite a bit. thanks, marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul OSPF is how you manage load sharing and load balancing. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:36 AM To: WISPA General List
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
BTW, we can do 12/24 volt DC with the R1 that we were discussing. Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul I'll tell you what my perfect tower site router would be for this. PC based, runs on 12vdc (so we can run everything from car batteries) and has gigE ethernet ports by the gross. Then we can route or bridge as needed based on the requirements of the distribution radio that's plugged into it. Lots of processor and memory power this way too! Maybe based on a Dell server Am I dreaming? marlon - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 8:47 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul RB493 limits ports to 100 fdx, If he is going licensed, theradios might be upgraded in the future to higher speeds... I would go RB1000 Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Mikrotik makes pretty good gear. Depending on traffic, I'd put an RB493AH in there. Should be able to do anything you needed to do without great concern for the weather. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:19 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Right. I get that part. But I've never used it out here so I don't know if it's a routing function or a bridging function like spanning tree. I'm trying to figure out what hardware would be best deployed at the tower sites. Part of what I'm trying to do is get a grip on long term costs. If I have to run sensitive routers vs. hardened switches it'll make a difference. Adding heat and AC to the towers changes the annual costs quite a bit. thanks, marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul OSPF is how you manage load sharing and load balancing. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 9:36 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Certainly Jack. I don't know anyone that's built something like this already though. And, it's really not that far off from what we already do. It's just bigger and faster. I've not used the hardware needed for this system so I'm mostly interested in what people would install. I know there are a few people here that have very high speed backbone systems in place. The one part that's got me stumped so far is what to do to create a load sharing load balancing mechanism at the main towers. Should that be done via high end switch or router? If you know someone that would be good help in putting this idea together please feel free to have them contact me. Please note, that nothing will be able to happen at a nut and bolt specific level until construction starts. The program is customer and land acquisition specific, not build it THIS way specific. Did I say that at all clearly? Does it make sense? That is part of why I've not even looked for help yet, there are far more questions than plans in place. Things are still at a conceptual stage, but I'm trying to drill down a bit better. Thanks! marlon - Original Message - From: Jack Unger To: WISPA General List Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Marlon, Trying to design a complex system like this via a listserve committee is more than a little bit risky. Have you considered going to someone who actually has this type of network design experience and paying them to do the whole job right the first time? Just asking. jack Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I don't know if I'll be able to put some many antennas on the towers. How close together would I need the towers to prevent the rain fade outage at 18 gig? Aren't there any 5.8 systems that will do this reliably in the first place? I shouldn't need 5.x for distribution so I could use it all for backhaul. I'll have 2.4, 3.65, 4.9 and hopefully, someday, TVBD
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
Are any of the towers setup such that you could cross the circle? In other words, if you had towers 1 to 20 in a ring, have a secondary link between towers 4 and 16 for instance. This would require routing, and preferably dynamic routing, but then you would have some redundancy. John Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I don't know if I'll be able to put some many antennas on the towers. How close together would I need the towers to prevent the rain fade outage at 18 gig? Aren't there any 5.8 systems that will do this reliably in the first place? I shouldn't need 5.x for distribution so I could use it all for backhaul. I'll have 2.4, 3.65, 4.9 and hopefully, someday, TVBD for the consumers. marlon - Original Message - From: Brian Webster bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul The 5.8 GHz backup links will help you deal with outages due to environmental conditions such as rain fade. That has to be factored in for links when you operate above 10 GHz. Even if you run a loop configuration you could have a fade condition that could block out a whole tower site severing your links to that location in both directions of your loop. Another path at a lower frequency with spatial diversity from your primary link (different mounting heights) would at least keep that site up though maybe not at full speed. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Thanks. Do you think we need the unlicensed for each hop if the entire network is build in a circle? marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Licensed 18ghz links with 5.8ghz backup links for each hop. Figure $15,000 per link for everything. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Hi All, I'm looking for some gear that'll be rock solid at 15 to 20 miles. Some links may be less, but I'm not counting on that. I'll be hauling public safety, private vpns, and normal internet traffic. I'll probably have around 20 towers, all linked in a ring. I can load share across the ring as long as speeds never drop below 100megs. I'll want things to be automatically self healing if there is a loss of connectivity in any direction. What would you guys use/suggest? I'd love to go licensed (but no 6 gig due to antenna sizes) but unlicensed may be OK due to the failover capabilities. We have to worry about snow, fog and, worst of all, dust storms. What gear would you use? How would you set this up? I'm in the pricing stage so off list quotes etc. are welcome. Pall park numbers are fine at this time, as long as they tend to run high vs. low, I'd rather over estimate the costs. thanks, marlon - --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ - --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
[WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
Hi All, I'm looking for some gear that'll be rock solid at 15 to 20 miles. Some links may be less, but I'm not counting on that. I'll be hauling public safety, private vpns, and normal internet traffic. I'll probably have around 20 towers, all linked in a ring. I can load share across the ring as long as speeds never drop below 100megs. I'll want things to be automatically self healing if there is a loss of connectivity in any direction. What would you guys use/suggest? I'd love to go licensed (but no 6 gig due to antenna sizes) but unlicensed may be OK due to the failover capabilities. We have to worry about snow, fog and, worst of all, dust storms. What gear would you use? How would you set this up? I'm in the pricing stage so off list quotes etc. are welcome. Pall park numbers are fine at this time, as long as they tend to run high vs. low, I'd rather over estimate the costs. thanks, marlon WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
Licensed 18ghz links with 5.8ghz backup links for each hop. Figure $15,000 per link for everything. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Hi All, I'm looking for some gear that'll be rock solid at 15 to 20 miles. Some links may be less, but I'm not counting on that. I'll be hauling public safety, private vpns, and normal internet traffic. I'll probably have around 20 towers, all linked in a ring. I can load share across the ring as long as speeds never drop below 100megs. I'll want things to be automatically self healing if there is a loss of connectivity in any direction. What would you guys use/suggest? I'd love to go licensed (but no 6 gig due to antenna sizes) but unlicensed may be OK due to the failover capabilities. We have to worry about snow, fog and, worst of all, dust storms. What gear would you use? How would you set this up? I'm in the pricing stage so off list quotes etc. are welcome. Pall park numbers are fine at this time, as long as they tend to run high vs. low, I'd rather over estimate the costs. thanks, marlon WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
The 5.8 GHz backup links will help you deal with outages due to environmental conditions such as rain fade. That has to be factored in for links when you operate above 10 GHz. Even if you run a loop configuration you could have a fade condition that could block out a whole tower site severing your links to that location in both directions of your loop. Another path at a lower frequency with spatial diversity from your primary link (different mounting heights) would at least keep that site up though maybe not at full speed. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Thanks. Do you think we need the unlicensed for each hop if the entire network is build in a circle? marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Licensed 18ghz links with 5.8ghz backup links for each hop. Figure $15,000 per link for everything. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Hi All, I'm looking for some gear that'll be rock solid at 15 to 20 miles. Some links may be less, but I'm not counting on that. I'll be hauling public safety, private vpns, and normal internet traffic. I'll probably have around 20 towers, all linked in a ring. I can load share across the ring as long as speeds never drop below 100megs. I'll want things to be automatically self healing if there is a loss of connectivity in any direction. What would you guys use/suggest? I'd love to go licensed (but no 6 gig due to antenna sizes) but unlicensed may be OK due to the failover capabilities. We have to worry about snow, fog and, worst of all, dust storms. What gear would you use? How would you set this up? I'm in the pricing stage so off list quotes etc. are welcome. Pall park numbers are fine at this time, as long as they tend to run high vs. low, I'd rather over estimate the costs. thanks, marlon - --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ - --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
I don't know if I'll be able to put some many antennas on the towers. How close together would I need the towers to prevent the rain fade outage at 18 gig? Aren't there any 5.8 systems that will do this reliably in the first place? I shouldn't need 5.x for distribution so I could use it all for backhaul. I'll have 2.4, 3.65, 4.9 and hopefully, someday, TVBD for the consumers. marlon - Original Message - From: Brian Webster bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul The 5.8 GHz backup links will help you deal with outages due to environmental conditions such as rain fade. That has to be factored in for links when you operate above 10 GHz. Even if you run a loop configuration you could have a fade condition that could block out a whole tower site severing your links to that location in both directions of your loop. Another path at a lower frequency with spatial diversity from your primary link (different mounting heights) would at least keep that site up though maybe not at full speed. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Thanks. Do you think we need the unlicensed for each hop if the entire network is build in a circle? marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Licensed 18ghz links with 5.8ghz backup links for each hop. Figure $15,000 per link for everything. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Hi All, I'm looking for some gear that'll be rock solid at 15 to 20 miles. Some links may be less, but I'm not counting on that. I'll be hauling public safety, private vpns, and normal internet traffic. I'll probably have around 20 towers, all linked in a ring. I can load share across the ring as long as speeds never drop below 100megs. I'll want things to be automatically self healing if there is a loss of connectivity in any direction. What would you guys use/suggest? I'd love to go licensed (but no 6 gig due to antenna sizes) but unlicensed may be OK due to the failover capabilities. We have to worry about snow, fog and, worst of all, dust storms. What gear would you use? How would you set this up? I'm in the pricing stage so off list quotes etc. are welcome. Pall park numbers are fine at this time, as long as they tend to run high vs. low, I'd rather over estimate the costs. thanks, marlon - --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ - --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul
Marlon, Trying to design a complex system like this via a listserve "committee" is more than a little bit risky. Have you considered going to someone who actually has this type of network design experience and paying them to do the whole job right the first time? Just asking. jack Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I don't know if I'll be able to put some many antennas on the towers. How close together would I need the towers to prevent the rain fade outage at 18 gig? Aren't there any 5.8 systems that will do this reliably in the first place? I shouldn't need 5.x for distribution so I could use it all for backhaul. I'll have 2.4, 3.65, 4.9 and hopefully, someday, TVBD for the consumers. marlon - Original Message - From: "Brian Webster" bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul The 5.8 GHz backup links will help you deal with outages due to environmental conditions such as rain fade. That has to be factored in for links when you operate above 10 GHz. Even if you run a loop configuration you could have a fade condition that could block out a whole tower site severing your links to that location in both directions of your loop. Another path at a lower frequency with spatial diversity from your primary link (different mounting heights) would at least keep that site up though maybe not at full speed. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:26 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Thanks. Do you think we need the unlicensed for each hop if the entire network is build in a circle? marlon - Original Message - From: "Travis Johnson" t...@ida.net To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 100 meg full duplex backhaul Licensed 18ghz links with 5.8ghz backup links for each hop. Figure $15,000 per link for everything. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Hi All, I'm looking for some gear that'll be rock solid at 15 to 20 miles. Some links may be less, but I'm not counting on that. I'll be hauling public safety, private vpns, and normal internet traffic. I'll probably have around 20 towers, all linked in a ring. I can load share across the ring as long as speeds never drop below 100megs. I'll want things to be automatically self healing if there is a loss of connectivity in any direction. What would you guys use/suggest? I'd love to go licensed (but no 6 gig due to antenna sizes) but unlicensed may be OK due to the failover capabilities. We have to worry about snow, fog and, worst of all, dust storms. What gear would you use? How would you set this up? I'm in the pricing stage so off list quotes etc. are welcome. Pall park numbers are fine at this time, as long as they tend to run high vs. low, I'd rather over estimate the costs. thanks, marlon - --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ - --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless A
