Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
What are the advantages of using both polarities for the same signal in a good LOS environment? There isn't. But having one on standby means, that when someone deploys on that channel/pol, in seconds you can switch polarities, to get past it. Broadcasting on DualPols, does have benefits in NLOS environments. However, the antenna design is more critical for transmitting on both at the same time. Often the Dual Pol antenna is used to create Circular polarity, such as the higher end Proxim Dual Pol gear. Or Orthogon that may compare signals to self correct them. Tom DeReggi -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: 17 January 2006 18:08 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna I'm not saying there isn;t a benefit now and then sharing a Dual pol antenna between two freqs, otherwise nobody would make them. BUt We have found most tower agreements also, have restrictions in the agreement that disallow using multiple radios our spectrum ranges on the antennas without paying for that as a second antenna, even though taking up only one antenna position. We found that its just as easy to sneak/put up a second antenna, without managers knowledge as it is to put up a dual freq antenna without them knowing. So normally you gotta pay regardless, if you do it honestly. It becomes an issue of wether you are honest about what you put up, versus sneaking up extra options without paying. Wether its spectrum or antennas is irrelevant. Most tower owners don't audit their sides regularly because its jsut to expensive and even if they do, the auditors often are over worked, and don't always check thouroughly what they are required to supposed to check. Most colocators also aren't short on antenna space, so they are really charging you based on the value you are receiving being there, not really the actually antenna space. Although special cases do apply such as with windload requirement of over weighted towers or towers like clock tower that have a limited number of window openings for the antennas. I also find saving money isn't that much of a savings because the antenna makers then also charge more for the dual pol antennas to counter most of your planned savings. However, saving on time, clearly is an option, with only one antenna to carry and bolt up. However you may run into issues, where the alignment of the antennas may need to be varied to get optimal signal based on wether you are aligning for 5.8 or 2.4. So because we like to engineer for OPTIMAL signal, apposed to compromised mostly best signal, we prefer to use seperate antennas. As a disclaimer: We pay for all our colocated antennas at our cell sites, and we do that because we honor our tower relationships, and have negotiated good terms, and do not want to abuse the trust they have in us, so we maintain good relations. I mention sneaking up antennas only because, every once in a while, we may have sneaked up an antenna to do the inital testing (which often requires it left there for a few days), so that we can avoid the lengthly antenna request process and timely paper work until after we are certain that the link is doable and tested. We justify sneaking the antenna up, because not only are we saving us time, we also are saving the management a lot of time, preventing the need to do paperwork unnecessarilly, if we are unsuccessful in pulling off the link we engineered. I do not advise attempting to pull one over on Management companies. If the Management company does not care what spectrum gets used, and charging just for the antenna space, the more power to you for being smarter. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chadd Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 10:30 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Who sells dual band antennas? That could save some money on tower space and simplify some installations. Thanks, Chadd -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna . However, I am aware of many successfuly using 2.4 and 5.8 from the same antenna. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 1/16/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Moto300/Orthogons can do dual payload so you need both polarities to achieve 300 megs. DSJ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 3:52 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna What are the advantages of using both polarities for the same signal in a good LOS environment? There isn't. But having one on standby means, that when someone deploys on that channel/pol, in seconds you can switch polarities, to get past it. Broadcasting on DualPols, does have benefits in NLOS environments. However, the antenna design is more critical for transmitting on both at the same time. Often the Dual Pol antenna is used to create Circular polarity, such as the higher end Proxim Dual Pol gear. Or Orthogon that may compare signals to self correct them. Tom DeReggi -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: 17 January 2006 18:08 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna I'm not saying there isn;t a benefit now and then sharing a Dual pol antenna between two freqs, otherwise nobody would make them. BUt We have found most tower agreements also, have restrictions in the agreement that disallow using multiple radios our spectrum ranges on the antennas without paying for that as a second antenna, even though taking up only one antenna position. We found that its just as easy to sneak/put up a second antenna, without managers knowledge as it is to put up a dual freq antenna without them knowing. So normally you gotta pay regardless, if you do it honestly. It becomes an issue of wether you are honest about what you put up, versus sneaking up extra options without paying. Wether its spectrum or antennas is irrelevant. Most tower owners don't audit their sides regularly because its jsut to expensive and even if they do, the auditors often are over worked, and don't always check thouroughly what they are required to supposed to check. Most colocators also aren't short on antenna space, so they are really charging you based on the value you are receiving being there, not really the actually antenna space. Although special cases do apply such as with windload requirement of over weighted towers or towers like clock tower that have a limited number of window openings for the antennas. I also find saving money isn't that much of a savings because the antenna makers then also charge more for the dual pol antennas to counter most of your planned savings. However, saving on time, clearly is an option, with only one antenna to carry and bolt up. However you may run into issues, where the alignment of the antennas may need to be varied to get optimal signal based on wether you are aligning for 5.8 or 2.4. So because we like to engineer for OPTIMAL signal, apposed to compromised mostly best signal, we prefer to use seperate antennas. As a disclaimer: We pay for all our colocated antennas at our cell sites, and we do that because we honor our tower relationships, and have negotiated good terms, and do not want to abuse the trust they have in us, so we maintain good relations. I mention sneaking up antennas only because, every once in a while, we may have sneaked up an antenna to do the inital testing (which often requires it left there for a few days), so that we can avoid the lengthly antenna request process and timely paper work until after we are certain that the link is doable and tested. We justify sneaking the antenna up, because not only are we saving us time, we also are saving the management a lot of time, preventing the need to do paperwork unnecessarilly, if we are unsuccessful in pulling off the link we engineered. I do not advise attempting to pull one over on Management companies. If the Management company does not care what spectrum gets used, and charging just for the antenna space, the more power to you for being smarter. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chadd Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 10:30 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Who sells dual band antennas? That could save some money on tower space and simplify some installations. Thanks, Chadd -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna . However, I am aware of many successfuly using 2.4 and 5.8 from the same antenna. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Bob, I hear what you're saying and have been through the figures a few times and even tried turning the power of the radio cards down to 1dB output (still unable to run both links simultaneously) but this doesn't explain why others are able to use the same radio cards with similar antennas with little to no problems. Charles, unfortunately Canopy isn't a financially viable solution at present. I have a rough idea of these 2 terms but I'll research them a little deeper to see if they shed some light. Anything else that may help on my quest? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 18 January 2006 00:25 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Ah..Lets do some math... Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output. For this example there is no line loss. The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation. Here we go... +20 dB -30dB xpole = -10 dB receive level. In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the opposite polarityNo??? Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should have receiver blocking... -B- Matt Liotta wrote: Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably. -Matt Jason Wallace wrote: List, When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves). However, when they are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling. Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between adjacent channels). I think you will always have trouble overloading the receiver when transmitting with this setup. -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.20/233 - Release Date: 18/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Because youre a top bloke ;) I've been trying to track down some narrow bandwidth 5.8GHz band pass filters for some time. Any ideas on where to get some? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: 18 January 2006 09:52 To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna A tightly notched cavity filter (but then, you lose system flexibility in other ways) Jeez, why am I still awake (and why am I responding to listserv emails at this hour?) -Charles --- WiNOG Austin, TX March 13-15, 2006 http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 3:43 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Bob, I hear what you're saying and have been through the figures a few times and even tried turning the power of the radio cards down to 1dB output (still unable to run both links simultaneously) but this doesn't explain why others are able to use the same radio cards with similar antennas with little to no problems. Charles, unfortunately Canopy isn't a financially viable solution at present. I have a rough idea of these 2 terms but I'll research them a little deeper to see if they shed some light. Anything else that may help on my quest? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 18 January 2006 00:25 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Ah..Lets do some math... Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output. For this example there is no line loss. The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation. Here we go... +20 dB -30dB xpole = -10 dB receive level. In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the opposite polarityNo??? Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should have receiver blocking... -B- Matt Liotta wrote: Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably. -Matt Jason Wallace wrote: List, When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves). However, when they are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling. Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between adjacent channels). I think you will always have trouble overloading the receiver when transmitting with this setup. -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.20/233 - Release Date: 18/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.20/233 - Release Date: 18/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.20/233 - Release Date: 18/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Canopy isnt economic viable? Hmmm you can buy SM's @ $250 or less... and now the SM lite is out around $175. Its a tough call not to use Canopy. Gino A. Villarini, Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.aeronetpr.com 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:43 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Bob, I hear what you're saying and have been through the figures a few times and even tried turning the power of the radio cards down to 1dB output (still unable to run both links simultaneously) but this doesn't explain why others are able to use the same radio cards with similar antennas with little to no problems. Charles, unfortunately Canopy isn't a financially viable solution at present. I have a rough idea of these 2 terms but I'll research them a little deeper to see if they shed some light. Anything else that may help on my quest? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 18 January 2006 00:25 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Ah..Lets do some math... Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output. For this example there is no line loss. The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation. Here we go... +20 dB -30dB xpole = -10 dB receive level. In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the opposite polarityNo??? Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should have receiver blocking... -B- Matt Liotta wrote: Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably. -Matt Jason Wallace wrote: List, When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves). However, when they are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling. Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between adjacent channels). I think you will always have trouble overloading the receiver when transmitting with this setup. -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.20/233 - Release Date: 18/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Really?? What models? We only use 5.8GHz and when we looked at Canopy in the past they where expensive and had limited throughput. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of G.Villarini Sent: 18 January 2006 10:53 To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Canopy isnt economic viable? Hmmm you can buy SM's @ $250 or less... and now the SM lite is out around $175. Its a tough call not to use Canopy. Gino A. Villarini, Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.aeronetpr.com 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:43 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Bob, I hear what you're saying and have been through the figures a few times and even tried turning the power of the radio cards down to 1dB output (still unable to run both links simultaneously) but this doesn't explain why others are able to use the same radio cards with similar antennas with little to no problems. Charles, unfortunately Canopy isn't a financially viable solution at present. I have a rough idea of these 2 terms but I'll research them a little deeper to see if they shed some light. Anything else that may help on my quest? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 18 January 2006 00:25 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Ah..Lets do some math... Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output. For this example there is no line loss. The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation. Here we go... +20 dB -30dB xpole = -10 dB receive level. In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the opposite polarityNo??? Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should have receiver blocking... -B- Matt Liotta wrote: Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably. -Matt Jason Wallace wrote: List, When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves). However, when they are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling. Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between adjacent channels). I think you will always have trouble overloading the receiver when transmitting with this setup. -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.20/233 - Release Date: 18/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.20/233 - Release Date: 18/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.20/233 - Release Date: 18/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Paul, You may have a bad feed horn or you may have a bad radio. I would consider both before jumping off a bridge here.. Tell Radiowaves about your issue and see if you can send the feedhorns back for testing. They come right out and may be a quick test to see whats up. -B- Paul Hendry wrote: Bob, I hear what you're saying and have been through the figures a few times and even tried turning the power of the radio cards down to 1dB output (still unable to run both links simultaneously) but this doesn't explain why others are able to use the same radio cards with similar antennas with little to no problems. Charles, unfortunately Canopy isn't a financially viable solution at present. I have a rough idea of these 2 terms but I'll research them a little deeper to see if they shed some light. Anything else that may help on my quest? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 18 January 2006 00:25 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Ah..Lets do some math... Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output. For this example there is no line loss. The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation. Here we go... +20 dB -30dB xpole = -10 dB receive level. In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the opposite polarityNo??? Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should have receiver blocking... -B- Matt Liotta wrote: Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably. -Matt Jason Wallace wrote: List, When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves). However, when they are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling. Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between adjacent channels). I think you will always have trouble overloading the receiver when transmitting with this setup. -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Do some shopping and you can buy SM's for about $250 or less... start at ebay, The new SM lite has a MRSP of $200 on 25 packs, usually you can get a 17 - 20 % discount from most Distributors. Gino A. Villarini, Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.aeronetpr.com 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:09 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Really?? What models? We only use 5.8GHz and when we looked at Canopy in the past they where expensive and had limited throughput. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of G.Villarini Sent: 18 January 2006 10:53 To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Canopy isnt economic viable? Hmmm you can buy SM's @ $250 or less... and now the SM lite is out around $175. Its a tough call not to use Canopy. Gino A. Villarini, Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.aeronetpr.com 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:43 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Bob, I hear what you're saying and have been through the figures a few times and even tried turning the power of the radio cards down to 1dB output (still unable to run both links simultaneously) but this doesn't explain why others are able to use the same radio cards with similar antennas with little to no problems. Charles, unfortunately Canopy isn't a financially viable solution at present. I have a rough idea of these 2 terms but I'll research them a little deeper to see if they shed some light. Anything else that may help on my quest? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 18 January 2006 00:25 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Ah..Lets do some math... Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output. For this example there is no line loss. The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation. Here we go... +20 dB -30dB xpole = -10 dB receive level. In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the opposite polarityNo??? Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should have receiver blocking... -B- Matt Liotta wrote: Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably. -Matt Jason Wallace wrote: List, When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves). However, when they are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling. Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between adjacent channels). I think you will always have trouble overloading the receiver when transmitting with this setup. -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.20/233 - Release Date: 18/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.20/233 - Release Date: 18/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.20/233 - Release Date: 18/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
What throughput do you get on these things? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of G.Villarini Sent: 18 January 2006 14:50 To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Do some shopping and you can buy SM's for about $250 or less... start at ebay, The new SM lite has a MRSP of $200 on 25 packs, usually you can get a 17 - 20 % discount from most Distributors. Gino A. Villarini, Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.aeronetpr.com 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:09 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Really?? What models? We only use 5.8GHz and when we looked at Canopy in the past they where expensive and had limited throughput. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of G.Villarini Sent: 18 January 2006 10:53 To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Canopy isnt economic viable? Hmmm you can buy SM's @ $250 or less... and now the SM lite is out around $175. Its a tough call not to use Canopy. Gino A. Villarini, Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.aeronetpr.com 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:43 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Bob, I hear what you're saying and have been through the figures a few times and even tried turning the power of the radio cards down to 1dB output (still unable to run both links simultaneously) but this doesn't explain why others are able to use the same radio cards with similar antennas with little to no problems. Charles, unfortunately Canopy isn't a financially viable solution at present. I have a rough idea of these 2 terms but I'll research them a little deeper to see if they shed some light. Anything else that may help on my quest? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 18 January 2006 00:25 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Ah..Lets do some math... Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output. For this example there is no line loss. The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation. Here we go... +20 dB -30dB xpole = -10 dB receive level. In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the opposite polarityNo??? Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should have receiver blocking... -B- Matt Liotta wrote: Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably. -Matt Jason Wallace wrote: List, When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves). However, when they are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling. Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between adjacent channels). I think you will always have trouble overloading the receiver when transmitting with this setup. -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.20/233 - Release Date: 18/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.20/233 - Release Date: 18/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.20/233 - Release Date: 18/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
We have Advantage APs , so we get 14 Mbps out of the System Gino A. Villarini, Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.aeronetpr.com 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:09 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna What throughput do you get on these things? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of G.Villarini Sent: 18 January 2006 14:50 To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Do some shopping and you can buy SM's for about $250 or less... start at ebay, The new SM lite has a MRSP of $200 on 25 packs, usually you can get a 17 - 20 % discount from most Distributors. Gino A. Villarini, Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.aeronetpr.com 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:09 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Really?? What models? We only use 5.8GHz and when we looked at Canopy in the past they where expensive and had limited throughput. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of G.Villarini Sent: 18 January 2006 10:53 To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Canopy isnt economic viable? Hmmm you can buy SM's @ $250 or less... and now the SM lite is out around $175. Its a tough call not to use Canopy. Gino A. Villarini, Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.aeronetpr.com 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:43 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Bob, I hear what you're saying and have been through the figures a few times and even tried turning the power of the radio cards down to 1dB output (still unable to run both links simultaneously) but this doesn't explain why others are able to use the same radio cards with similar antennas with little to no problems. Charles, unfortunately Canopy isn't a financially viable solution at present. I have a rough idea of these 2 terms but I'll research them a little deeper to see if they shed some light. Anything else that may help on my quest? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 18 January 2006 00:25 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Ah..Lets do some math... Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output. For this example there is no line loss. The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation. Here we go... +20 dB -30dB xpole = -10 dB receive level. In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the opposite polarityNo??? Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should have receiver blocking... -B- Matt Liotta wrote: Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably. -Matt Jason Wallace wrote: List, When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves). However, when they are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling. Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between adjacent channels). I think you will always have trouble overloading the receiver when transmitting with this setup. -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.20/233 - Release Date: 18/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Not so sure it's that simple. I have 2 separate setups that I'm seeing this problem with so I doubt it's 4 feed horns or radios gone bad at the same time. We're in the UK and unfortunately the RadioWaves support isn't quite as good here as it obviously is over there but I'll give em a go. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 18 January 2006 13:07 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Paul, You may have a bad feed horn or you may have a bad radio. I would consider both before jumping off a bridge here.. Tell Radiowaves about your issue and see if you can send the feedhorns back for testing. They come right out and may be a quick test to see whats up. -B- Paul Hendry wrote: Bob, I hear what you're saying and have been through the figures a few times and even tried turning the power of the radio cards down to 1dB output (still unable to run both links simultaneously) but this doesn't explain why others are able to use the same radio cards with similar antennas with little to no problems. Charles, unfortunately Canopy isn't a financially viable solution at present. I have a rough idea of these 2 terms but I'll research them a little deeper to see if they shed some light. Anything else that may help on my quest? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 18 January 2006 00:25 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Ah..Lets do some math... Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output. For this example there is no line loss. The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation. Here we go... +20 dB -30dB xpole = -10 dB receive level. In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the opposite polarityNo??? Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should have receiver blocking... -B- Matt Liotta wrote: Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably. -Matt Jason Wallace wrote: List, When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves). However, when they are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling. Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between adjacent channels). I think you will always have trouble overloading the receiver when transmitting with this setup. -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.20/233 - Release Date: 18/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.20/233 - Release Date: 18/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Are you using advanced sm's too? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC 114 S. Walnut St. Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of G.Villarini Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 7:09 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna We have Advantage APs , so we get 14 Mbps out of the System Gino A. Villarini, Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.aeronetpr.com 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:09 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna What throughput do you get on these things? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of G.Villarini Sent: 18 January 2006 14:50 To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Do some shopping and you can buy SM's for about $250 or less... start at ebay, The new SM lite has a MRSP of $200 on 25 packs, usually you can get a 17 - 20 % discount from most Distributors. Gino A. Villarini, Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.aeronetpr.com 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:09 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Really?? What models? We only use 5.8GHz and when we looked at Canopy in the past they where expensive and had limited throughput. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of G.Villarini Sent: 18 January 2006 10:53 To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Canopy isnt economic viable? Hmmm you can buy SM's @ $250 or less... and now the SM lite is out around $175. Its a tough call not to use Canopy. Gino A. Villarini, Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.aeronetpr.com 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:43 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Bob, I hear what you're saying and have been through the figures a few times and even tried turning the power of the radio cards down to 1dB output (still unable to run both links simultaneously) but this doesn't explain why others are able to use the same radio cards with similar antennas with little to no problems. Charles, unfortunately Canopy isn't a financially viable solution at present. I have a rough idea of these 2 terms but I'll research them a little deeper to see if they shed some light. Anything else that may help on my quest? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 18 January 2006 00:25 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Ah..Lets do some math... Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output. For this example there is no line loss. The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation. Here we go... +20 dB -30dB xpole = -10 dB receive level. In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the opposite polarityNo??? Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should have receiver blocking... -B- Matt Liotta wrote: Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably. -Matt Jason Wallace wrote: List, When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves). However, when they are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling. Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between adjacent channels). I think you will always have trouble overloading the receiver when transmitting with this setup. -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.20/233 - Release Date: 18
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Nop, just regular sm's Gino A. Villarini, Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.aeronetpr.com 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 3:07 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Are you using advanced sm's too? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC 114 S. Walnut St. Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of G.Villarini Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 7:09 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna We have Advantage APs , so we get 14 Mbps out of the System Gino A. Villarini, Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.aeronetpr.com 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:09 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna What throughput do you get on these things? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of G.Villarini Sent: 18 January 2006 14:50 To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Do some shopping and you can buy SM's for about $250 or less... start at ebay, The new SM lite has a MRSP of $200 on 25 packs, usually you can get a 17 - 20 % discount from most Distributors. Gino A. Villarini, Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.aeronetpr.com 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:09 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Really?? What models? We only use 5.8GHz and when we looked at Canopy in the past they where expensive and had limited throughput. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of G.Villarini Sent: 18 January 2006 10:53 To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Canopy isnt economic viable? Hmmm you can buy SM's @ $250 or less... and now the SM lite is out around $175. Its a tough call not to use Canopy. Gino A. Villarini, Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.aeronetpr.com 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:43 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Bob, I hear what you're saying and have been through the figures a few times and even tried turning the power of the radio cards down to 1dB output (still unable to run both links simultaneously) but this doesn't explain why others are able to use the same radio cards with similar antennas with little to no problems. Charles, unfortunately Canopy isn't a financially viable solution at present. I have a rough idea of these 2 terms but I'll research them a little deeper to see if they shed some light. Anything else that may help on my quest? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 18 January 2006 00:25 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Ah..Lets do some math... Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output. For this example there is no line loss. The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation. Here we go... +20 dB -30dB xpole = -10 dB receive level. In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the opposite polarityNo??? Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should have receiver blocking... -B- Matt Liotta wrote: Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably. -Matt Jason Wallace wrote: List, When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves). However, when they are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling. Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between adjacent channels). I think you will always have trouble overloading the receiver when transmitting with this setup. -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Yep. 2 separate WRAP boards in 2 separate mini-box metal enclosures. I have had a look at the spec sheet for the RadioWaves antenna's but they don't mention any isolation between the horizontal and vertical N-Type ports. Have you used these particular antennas before? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 16 January 2006 23:40 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Hey Paul, Yes, that is exactly what I am doing. But both radios are 5.7-5.8 range without issues. I can't answer what you are doing wrong. It should work without issue. You are using 2 seperate WRAP boards...corrrect?? -B- Paul Hendry wrote: Bob, are you saying that you are running 2 simultaneous links through 2 separate StarOS powered WRAP/CM9 on a single dual-polarized antenna with no other hardware? I have tried this on 2 separate links running horizontal at 5.8 and vertical at 5.2 but still cannot download through one link without impacting the other. What am I doing wrong? The radios are connected to the antennas via very short pigtails and about 2 feet of LMR-400. -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.18/230 - Release Date: 14/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Paul Hendry wrote: Yep. 2 separate WRAP boards in 2 separate mini-box metal enclosures. I have had a look at the spec sheet for the RadioWaves antenna's but they don't mention any isolation between the horizontal and vertical N-Type ports. Have you used these particular antennas before? I have not used the dual polarity Radiowaves. We use predominately Gabriel-Tripoint. We had some issues with Radiowaves flat panel antennas that were not doing the gain they should be (6-8 dB less) . I have not had any issues with their parabolics though -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
On a side note, for general info, not necessarilly applicable to the task in question Just because an antenna is Dual polarity, does not mean that both polarities can be used at the same time by seperate signals. The wiring/circuitry (what ever its called for an antenna) may be shared by the two pols, and bonded togeather in some way. The DUAL Polarity antenna has to be designed with two completely unique circuits to the antenna from the N connector, for both pols to be used at the same time. Secondly, Any two antenna elements near each other can work togeather two create the antenna beam. Just like an Omni or Panel antenna that is really just several antenna elements place appropriately to work togeather to increase gain and reduce beamwidth. Its very common to use both polarities at the same time for the same signal, but a much different matter two have two seperate signals and not have them interfere. Polarity isolation is often not enough when smack dab right next to each other. In theory 90 degrees off polarity equals 100% isolation, but in the real world its closer to 15-20 DB, but is that considering between the antennas elements right there, or signal comming from the enviroment getting shielded out? Who knows. Its very possible that 5.2 and 5.8 may not be far enough apart from each other to colocate on the same antenna, however I don't know that for a fact (harmonics and stuff like that). However, I am aware of many successfuly using 2.4 and 5.8 from the same antenna. The point I'm making is not what can and cant be done, just that not all antennas Dual Pol antennas are designed the same, and what you can pull off on one, may not be able to be pulled off on another type. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Paul Hendry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 2:23 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Bob, are you saying that you are running 2 simultaneous links through 2 separate StarOS powered WRAP/CM9 on a single dual-polarized antenna with no other hardware? I have tried this on 2 separate links running horizontal at 5.8 and vertical at 5.2 but still cannot download through one link without impacting the other. What am I doing wrong? The radios are connected to the antennas via very short pigtails and about 2 feet of LMR-400. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 16 January 2006 15:18 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Why would you use an isolator If we are talking possible adjacent channel interference then an isolator is not the cure, aditional filtering would be. But most equipment should be able to work in this environment without it. I have sites that have 4 WRAP boards with CM9's sitting right next to each other on the next adjacent channel with no issues. In addition, the loss of power is not acceptable (though it wouldn't be half power at 5GHz.). -B- Richard Goodin wrote: Go to some of the hard core LMR delers and ask for isolators, (They will cut your power in half). Your LMR dealer will need to know power, frequency, type of connectors. This may work, I do not know. - Original Message - *From:* Paul Hendry mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* 'WISPA General List' mailto:wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Monday, January 16, 2006 5:14 AM *Subject:* RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Radios are WRAP/CM9's with StarOS on RadioWaves SPD2-5.2NS. Is there anything special you do/use to get this to work? Only things I can see that would help are band pass filters. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 15 January 2006 23:53 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna I should revise that to say we do it on dual polarity antennas. Not 2 radios on one antenna -B- -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.18/230 - Release Date: 14/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.18/230 - Release Date: 14/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Indeed and this seems to be what is happening with my RadioWave antennas. I did ask about this prior to purchasing the antennas and was assured by the vendor that there was isolation between the ports. Testing suggests otherwise. Has anyone else used dual-polarized RadioWaves in this way? If the antennas do have bonded circuitry for the different polarities and I use both polarities for the same signal what am I likely to see improved? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: 17 January 2006 15:19 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna On a side note, for general info, not necessarilly applicable to the task in question Just because an antenna is Dual polarity, does not mean that both polarities can be used at the same time by seperate signals. The wiring/circuitry (what ever its called for an antenna) may be shared by the two pols, and bonded togeather in some way. The DUAL Polarity antenna has to be designed with two completely unique circuits to the antenna from the N connector, for both pols to be used at the same time. Secondly, Any two antenna elements near each other can work togeather two create the antenna beam. Just like an Omni or Panel antenna that is really just several antenna elements place appropriately to work togeather to increase gain and reduce beamwidth. Its very common to use both polarities at the same time for the same signal, but a much different matter two have two seperate signals and not have them interfere. Polarity isolation is often not enough when smack dab right next to each other. In theory 90 degrees off polarity equals 100% isolation, but in the real world its closer to 15-20 DB, but is that considering between the antennas elements right there, or signal comming from the enviroment getting shielded out? Who knows. Its very possible that 5.2 and 5.8 may not be far enough apart from each other to colocate on the same antenna, however I don't know that for a fact (harmonics and stuff like that). However, I am aware of many successfuly using 2.4 and 5.8 from the same antenna. The point I'm making is not what can and cant be done, just that not all antennas Dual Pol antennas are designed the same, and what you can pull off on one, may not be able to be pulled off on another type. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Paul Hendry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 2:23 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Bob, are you saying that you are running 2 simultaneous links through 2 separate StarOS powered WRAP/CM9 on a single dual-polarized antenna with no other hardware? I have tried this on 2 separate links running horizontal at 5.8 and vertical at 5.2 but still cannot download through one link without impacting the other. What am I doing wrong? The radios are connected to the antennas via very short pigtails and about 2 feet of LMR-400. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 16 January 2006 15:18 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Why would you use an isolator If we are talking possible adjacent channel interference then an isolator is not the cure, aditional filtering would be. But most equipment should be able to work in this environment without it. I have sites that have 4 WRAP boards with CM9's sitting right next to each other on the next adjacent channel with no issues. In addition, the loss of power is not acceptable (though it wouldn't be half power at 5GHz.). -B- Richard Goodin wrote: Go to some of the hard core LMR delers and ask for isolators, (They will cut your power in half). Your LMR dealer will need to know power, frequency, type of connectors. This may work, I do not know. - Original Message - *From:* Paul Hendry mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* 'WISPA General List' mailto:wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Monday, January 16, 2006 5:14 AM *Subject:* RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Radios are WRAP/CM9's with StarOS on RadioWaves SPD2-5.2NS. Is there anything special you do/use to get this to work? Only things I can see that would help are band pass filters. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 15 January 2006 23:53 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna I should revise that to say we do it on dual polarity antennas. Not 2 radios on one antenna -B- -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook
Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
I'm not saying there isn;t a benefit now and then sharing a Dual pol antenna between two freqs, otherwise nobody would make them. BUt We have found most tower agreements also, have restrictions in the agreement that disallow using multiple radios our spectrum ranges on the antennas without paying for that as a second antenna, even though taking up only one antenna position. We found that its just as easy to sneak/put up a second antenna, without managers knowledge as it is to put up a dual freq antenna without them knowing. So normally you gotta pay regardless, if you do it honestly. It becomes an issue of wether you are honest about what you put up, versus sneaking up extra options without paying. Wether its spectrum or antennas is irrelevant. Most tower owners don't audit their sides regularly because its jsut to expensive and even if they do, the auditors often are over worked, and don't always check thouroughly what they are required to supposed to check. Most colocators also aren't short on antenna space, so they are really charging you based on the value you are receiving being there, not really the actually antenna space. Although special cases do apply such as with windload requirement of over weighted towers or towers like clock tower that have a limited number of window openings for the antennas. I also find saving money isn't that much of a savings because the antenna makers then also charge more for the dual pol antennas to counter most of your planned savings. However, saving on time, clearly is an option, with only one antenna to carry and bolt up. However you may run into issues, where the alignment of the antennas may need to be varied to get optimal signal based on wether you are aligning for 5.8 or 2.4. So because we like to engineer for OPTIMAL signal, apposed to compromised mostly best signal, we prefer to use seperate antennas. As a disclaimer: We pay for all our colocated antennas at our cell sites, and we do that because we honor our tower relationships, and have negotiated good terms, and do not want to abuse the trust they have in us, so we maintain good relations. I mention sneaking up antennas only because, every once in a while, we may have sneaked up an antenna to do the inital testing (which often requires it left there for a few days), so that we can avoid the lengthly antenna request process and timely paper work until after we are certain that the link is doable and tested. We justify sneaking the antenna up, because not only are we saving us time, we also are saving the management a lot of time, preventing the need to do paperwork unnecessarilly, if we are unsuccessful in pulling off the link we engineered. I do not advise attempting to pull one over on Management companies. If the Management company does not care what spectrum gets used, and charging just for the antenna space, the more power to you for being smarter. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chadd Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 10:30 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Who sells dual band antennas? That could save some money on tower space and simplify some installations. Thanks, Chadd -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna . However, I am aware of many successfuly using 2.4 and 5.8 from the same antenna. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 1/16/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
List, When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves). However, when they are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling. Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between adjacent channels). I think you will always have trouble overloading the receiver when transmitting with this setup. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Hi Tom, Our tower rentals are all based on wind-loading so a dual-pol antenna costs the same as a single pol. What are the advantages of using both polarities for the same signal in a good LOS environment? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: 17 January 2006 18:08 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna I'm not saying there isn;t a benefit now and then sharing a Dual pol antenna between two freqs, otherwise nobody would make them. BUt We have found most tower agreements also, have restrictions in the agreement that disallow using multiple radios our spectrum ranges on the antennas without paying for that as a second antenna, even though taking up only one antenna position. We found that its just as easy to sneak/put up a second antenna, without managers knowledge as it is to put up a dual freq antenna without them knowing. So normally you gotta pay regardless, if you do it honestly. It becomes an issue of wether you are honest about what you put up, versus sneaking up extra options without paying. Wether its spectrum or antennas is irrelevant. Most tower owners don't audit their sides regularly because its jsut to expensive and even if they do, the auditors often are over worked, and don't always check thouroughly what they are required to supposed to check. Most colocators also aren't short on antenna space, so they are really charging you based on the value you are receiving being there, not really the actually antenna space. Although special cases do apply such as with windload requirement of over weighted towers or towers like clock tower that have a limited number of window openings for the antennas. I also find saving money isn't that much of a savings because the antenna makers then also charge more for the dual pol antennas to counter most of your planned savings. However, saving on time, clearly is an option, with only one antenna to carry and bolt up. However you may run into issues, where the alignment of the antennas may need to be varied to get optimal signal based on wether you are aligning for 5.8 or 2.4. So because we like to engineer for OPTIMAL signal, apposed to compromised mostly best signal, we prefer to use seperate antennas. As a disclaimer: We pay for all our colocated antennas at our cell sites, and we do that because we honor our tower relationships, and have negotiated good terms, and do not want to abuse the trust they have in us, so we maintain good relations. I mention sneaking up antennas only because, every once in a while, we may have sneaked up an antenna to do the inital testing (which often requires it left there for a few days), so that we can avoid the lengthly antenna request process and timely paper work until after we are certain that the link is doable and tested. We justify sneaking the antenna up, because not only are we saving us time, we also are saving the management a lot of time, preventing the need to do paperwork unnecessarilly, if we are unsuccessful in pulling off the link we engineered. I do not advise attempting to pull one over on Management companies. If the Management company does not care what spectrum gets used, and charging just for the antenna space, the more power to you for being smarter. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chadd Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 10:30 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Who sells dual band antennas? That could save some money on tower space and simplify some installations. Thanks, Chadd -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna . However, I am aware of many successfuly using 2.4 and 5.8 from the same antenna. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 1/16/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http
Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably. -Matt Jason Wallace wrote: List, When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves). However, when they are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling. Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between adjacent channels). I think you will always have trouble overloading the receiver when transmitting with this setup. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Sorry but this whole thread is going sour fast. 1. Dual Polarity antennas work for transmit and receive. They are not TX only or RX only in configuration. 2. The normal isolation between vertical polarity and horizontal polarity can range from 10-30 dB depending on the operating frequency. 3. The biggest issues to using 2 radios on the same dual polarity antenna is the adjacent channel rejection, x-pole polarity, TX power levels and Receiver sensitivity.. 4. 802.XX radios will not work on the same channel because while one radio is transmitting on 5825 GHz. the radio on the other polarity is receiving on the same channel. Considering there is only 10-30 dB of seperation, the radio RX levels will only be reduced by that amount causing receive interference. 5. We have more than 20 dual polarity links running FD radios such as Proxim Tsunamis operating in the same band. Granted, they have much better filtering than the basic 802.XX radio but they work flawlessly.. 6. We presently have 2 DP links in place with 802 style radios. One of the links consists of WRAP/CM9's operating in 5.7-5.8 Ghz. The other has a Proxim MP.11a on one plane and Tranzeo TR-5a on the other. One link is 6.5 miles, the other is 7 miles. There is no desense between radios and both operate fine without interference issues. 7. While Tom may be experiencing the tower rental issues regarding antennas, we have not seen this in the NE. Most leases we have negotiated are based around wind loading on the tower. Like everything, dual polarity antennas have a place like all other equipment. The link just needs to be engineered to operate properly. -B- -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Bob, Item 4 is what I am talking about. If your radios have very good adjacent channel rejection, are not transmitting at high levels, and the antenna has minimized any of the coupling I mentioned, then they may be able to listen through the noise from the other transmitter. A lot of this depends on output power; it is possible to just totally swamp one receiver with another transmitter and create a noise floor too high to listen through. In my last post I was thinking like a HAM operator (theory-wise) that deals with much greater power levels. With 802.11 power levels, it may work better. It has to be designed right, like you said. No one should think that you can just hang a dual pol and do anything with it. Jason Wallace Bob Moldashel wrote: Sorry but this whole thread is going sour fast. 1. Dual Polarity antennas work for transmit and receive. They are not TX only or RX only in configuration. 2. The normal isolation between vertical polarity and horizontal polarity can range from 10-30 dB depending on the operating frequency. 3. The biggest issues to using 2 radios on the same dual polarity antenna is the adjacent channel rejection, x-pole polarity, TX power levels and Receiver sensitivity.. 4. 802.XX radios will not work on the same channel because while one radio is transmitting on 5825 GHz. the radio on the other polarity is receiving on the same channel. Considering there is only 10-30 dB of seperation, the radio RX levels will only be reduced by that amount causing receive interference. 5. We have more than 20 dual polarity links running FD radios such as Proxim Tsunamis operating in the same band. Granted, they have much better filtering than the basic 802.XX radio but they work flawlessly.. 6. We presently have 2 DP links in place with 802 style radios. One of the links consists of WRAP/CM9's operating in 5.7-5.8 Ghz. The other has a Proxim MP.11a on one plane and Tranzeo TR-5a on the other. One link is 6.5 miles, the other is 7 miles. There is no desense between radios and both operate fine without interference issues. 7. While Tom may be experiencing the tower rental issues regarding antennas, we have not seen this in the NE. Most leases we have negotiated are based around wind loading on the tower. Like everything, dual polarity antennas have a place like all other equipment. The link just needs to be engineered to operate properly. -B- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Just checked the specs for the RadioWaves antennas that I'm having the problems with and see that they have 28dB X-Pol. Rejection would this suggest that the circuitry controlling the 2 feeds are separate? If so, is there anything else that could be preventing us having 2 separate simultaneous links running through these parabolics? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 17 January 2006 18:51 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Sorry but this whole thread is going sour fast. 1. Dual Polarity antennas work for transmit and receive. They are not TX only or RX only in configuration. 2. The normal isolation between vertical polarity and horizontal polarity can range from 10-30 dB depending on the operating frequency. 3. The biggest issues to using 2 radios on the same dual polarity antenna is the adjacent channel rejection, x-pole polarity, TX power levels and Receiver sensitivity.. 4. 802.XX radios will not work on the same channel because while one radio is transmitting on 5825 GHz. the radio on the other polarity is receiving on the same channel. Considering there is only 10-30 dB of seperation, the radio RX levels will only be reduced by that amount causing receive interference. 5. We have more than 20 dual polarity links running FD radios such as Proxim Tsunamis operating in the same band. Granted, they have much better filtering than the basic 802.XX radio but they work flawlessly.. 6. We presently have 2 DP links in place with 802 style radios. One of the links consists of WRAP/CM9's operating in 5.7-5.8 Ghz. The other has a Proxim MP.11a on one plane and Tranzeo TR-5a on the other. One link is 6.5 miles, the other is 7 miles. There is no desense between radios and both operate fine without interference issues. 7. While Tom may be experiencing the tower rental issues regarding antennas, we have not seen this in the NE. Most leases we have negotiated are based around wind loading on the tower. Like everything, dual polarity antennas have a place like all other equipment. The link just needs to be engineered to operate properly. -B- -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Reading further through the RadioWaves docs it clearly states that each polarization is isolated from the other so I'm guessing the issue isn't the dishes or feeds. The radios are mount about a foot from the dishes and the RF cable is LMR-400. Is it possible/plausible that the interference is being caused by one radio card receiving the signal directly from the dish as the radios are mounted so close to the dish? Any other ideas? I'm really stuck with this. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: 17 January 2006 20:09 To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Just checked the specs for the RadioWaves antennas that I'm having the problems with and see that they have 28dB X-Pol. Rejection would this suggest that the circuitry controlling the 2 feeds are separate? If so, is there anything else that could be preventing us having 2 separate simultaneous links running through these parabolics? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 17 January 2006 18:51 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Sorry but this whole thread is going sour fast. 1. Dual Polarity antennas work for transmit and receive. They are not TX only or RX only in configuration. 2. The normal isolation between vertical polarity and horizontal polarity can range from 10-30 dB depending on the operating frequency. 3. The biggest issues to using 2 radios on the same dual polarity antenna is the adjacent channel rejection, x-pole polarity, TX power levels and Receiver sensitivity.. 4. 802.XX radios will not work on the same channel because while one radio is transmitting on 5825 GHz. the radio on the other polarity is receiving on the same channel. Considering there is only 10-30 dB of seperation, the radio RX levels will only be reduced by that amount causing receive interference. 5. We have more than 20 dual polarity links running FD radios such as Proxim Tsunamis operating in the same band. Granted, they have much better filtering than the basic 802.XX radio but they work flawlessly.. 6. We presently have 2 DP links in place with 802 style radios. One of the links consists of WRAP/CM9's operating in 5.7-5.8 Ghz. The other has a Proxim MP.11a on one plane and Tranzeo TR-5a on the other. One link is 6.5 miles, the other is 7 miles. There is no desense between radios and both operate fine without interference issues. 7. While Tom may be experiencing the tower rental issues regarding antennas, we have not seen this in the NE. Most leases we have negotiated are based around wind loading on the tower. Like everything, dual polarity antennas have a place like all other equipment. The link just needs to be engineered to operate properly. -B- -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Hi Paul, I haven't been paying attention to this thread close enough to know your exact situation, but it is worth noting that there are always extrra headaches to deal with when trying to jerry-rig consumer grade hardware Remember the days of KarlNet ORiNOCO?? Back in those days, when using an AP-1000 per say, it was necessary to clip the built-in dipoles on a PCMCIA card in order to stem rf bleed Thank goodness for Canopy / Trango / whatever =) -Charles --- WiNOG Austin, TX March 13-15, 2006 http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 2:59 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Reading further through the RadioWaves docs it clearly states that each polarization is isolated from the other so I'm guessing the issue isn't the dishes or feeds. The radios are mount about a foot from the dishes and the RF cable is LMR-400. Is it possible/plausible that the interference is being caused by one radio card receiving the signal directly from the dish as the radios are mounted so close to the dish? Any other ideas? I'm really stuck with this. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: 17 January 2006 20:09 To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Just checked the specs for the RadioWaves antennas that I'm having the problems with and see that they have 28dB X-Pol. Rejection would this suggest that the circuitry controlling the 2 feeds are separate? If so, is there anything else that could be preventing us having 2 separate simultaneous links running through these parabolics? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 17 January 2006 18:51 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Sorry but this whole thread is going sour fast. 1. Dual Polarity antennas work for transmit and receive. They are not TX only or RX only in configuration. 2. The normal isolation between vertical polarity and horizontal polarity can range from 10-30 dB depending on the operating frequency. 3. The biggest issues to using 2 radios on the same dual polarity antenna is the adjacent channel rejection, x-pole polarity, TX power levels and Receiver sensitivity.. 4. 802.XX radios will not work on the same channel because while one radio is transmitting on 5825 GHz. the radio on the other polarity is receiving on the same channel. Considering there is only 10-30 dB of seperation, the radio RX levels will only be reduced by that amount causing receive interference. 5. We have more than 20 dual polarity links running FD radios such as Proxim Tsunamis operating in the same band. Granted, they have much better filtering than the basic 802.XX radio but they work flawlessly.. 6. We presently have 2 DP links in place with 802 style radios. One of the links consists of WRAP/CM9's operating in 5.7-5.8 Ghz. The other has a Proxim MP.11a on one plane and Tranzeo TR-5a on the other. One link is 6.5 miles, the other is 7 miles. There is no desense between radios and both operate fine without interference issues. 7. While Tom may be experiencing the tower rental issues regarding antennas, we have not seen this in the NE. Most leases we have negotiated are based around wind loading on the tower. Like everything, dual polarity antennas have a place like all other equipment. The link just needs to be engineered to operate properly. -B- -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Charles I hope we don't get kicked off this list for talking about canopy. :) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC 114 S. Walnut St. Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:14 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Hi Paul, I haven't been paying attention to this thread close enough to know your exact situation, but it is worth noting that there are always extrra headaches to deal with when trying to jerry-rig consumer grade hardware Remember the days of KarlNet ORiNOCO?? Back in those days, when using an AP-1000 per say, it was necessary to clip the built-in dipoles on a PCMCIA card in order to stem rf bleed Thank goodness for Canopy / Trango / whatever =) -Charles --- WiNOG Austin, TX March 13-15, 2006 http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 2:59 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Reading further through the RadioWaves docs it clearly states that each polarization is isolated from the other so I'm guessing the issue isn't the dishes or feeds. The radios are mount about a foot from the dishes and the RF cable is LMR-400. Is it possible/plausible that the interference is being caused by one radio card receiving the signal directly from the dish as the radios are mounted so close to the dish? Any other ideas? I'm really stuck with this. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: 17 January 2006 20:09 To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Just checked the specs for the RadioWaves antennas that I'm having the problems with and see that they have 28dB X-Pol. Rejection would this suggest that the circuitry controlling the 2 feeds are separate? If so, is there anything else that could be preventing us having 2 separate simultaneous links running through these parabolics? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 17 January 2006 18:51 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Sorry but this whole thread is going sour fast. 1. Dual Polarity antennas work for transmit and receive. They are not TX only or RX only in configuration. 2. The normal isolation between vertical polarity and horizontal polarity can range from 10-30 dB depending on the operating frequency. 3. The biggest issues to using 2 radios on the same dual polarity antenna is the adjacent channel rejection, x-pole polarity, TX power levels and Receiver sensitivity.. 4. 802.XX radios will not work on the same channel because while one radio is transmitting on 5825 GHz. the radio on the other polarity is receiving on the same channel. Considering there is only 10-30 dB of seperation, the radio RX levels will only be reduced by that amount causing receive interference. 5. We have more than 20 dual polarity links running FD radios such as Proxim Tsunamis operating in the same band. Granted, they have much better filtering than the basic 802.XX radio but they work flawlessly.. 6. We presently have 2 DP links in place with 802 style radios. One of the links consists of WRAP/CM9's operating in 5.7-5.8 Ghz. The other has a Proxim MP.11a on one plane and Tranzeo TR-5a on the other. One link is 6.5 miles, the other is 7 miles. There is no desense between radios and both operate fine without interference issues. 7. While Tom may be experiencing the tower rental issues regarding antennas, we have not seen this in the NE. Most leases we have negotiated are based around wind loading on the tower. Like everything, dual polarity antennas have a place like all other equipment. The link just needs to be engineered to operate properly. -B- -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.19/231 - Release Date: 16/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Nah, we aren't selling anything, just keep it civil. You guys could pay your dues though, that would help the effort! ;) When is the last time you guys heard from the moderator? Good job! Rick Harnish President OnlyInternet Broadband Wireless, Inc. 260-827-2482 Office 260-307-4000 Cell 260-918-4340 VoIP www.oibw.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:09 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Charles I hope we don't get kicked off this list for talking about canopy. :) Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC 114 S. Walnut St. Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:14 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Hi Paul, I haven't been paying attention to this thread close enough to know your exact situation, but it is worth noting that there are always extrra headaches to deal with when trying to jerry-rig consumer grade hardware Remember the days of KarlNet ORiNOCO?? Back in those days, when using an AP-1000 per say, it was necessary to clip the built-in dipoles on a PCMCIA card in order to stem rf bleed Thank goodness for Canopy / Trango / whatever =) -Charles --- WiNOG Austin, TX March 13-15, 2006 http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 2:59 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Reading further through the RadioWaves docs it clearly states that each polarization is isolated from the other so I'm guessing the issue isn't the dishes or feeds. The radios are mount about a foot from the dishes and the RF cable is LMR-400. Is it possible/plausible that the interference is being caused by one radio card receiving the signal directly from the dish as the radios are mounted so close to the dish? Any other ideas? I'm really stuck with this. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: 17 January 2006 20:09 To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Just checked the specs for the RadioWaves antennas that I'm having the problems with and see that they have 28dB X-Pol. Rejection would this suggest that the circuitry controlling the 2 feeds are separate? If so, is there anything else that could be preventing us having 2 separate simultaneous links running through these parabolics? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 17 January 2006 18:51 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Sorry but this whole thread is going sour fast. 1. Dual Polarity antennas work for transmit and receive. They are not TX only or RX only in configuration. 2. The normal isolation between vertical polarity and horizontal polarity can range from 10-30 dB depending on the operating frequency. 3. The biggest issues to using 2 radios on the same dual polarity antenna is the adjacent channel rejection, x-pole polarity, TX power levels and Receiver sensitivity.. 4. 802.XX radios will not work on the same channel because while one radio is transmitting on 5825 GHz. the radio on the other polarity is receiving on the same channel. Considering there is only 10-30 dB of seperation, the radio RX levels will only be reduced by that amount causing receive interference. 5. We have more than 20 dual polarity links running FD radios such as Proxim Tsunamis operating in the same band. Granted, they have much better filtering than the basic 802.XX radio but they work flawlessly.. 6. We presently have 2 DP links in place with 802 style radios. One of the links consists of WRAP/CM9's operating in 5.7-5.8 Ghz. The other has a Proxim MP.11a on one plane and Tranzeo TR-5a on the other. One link is 6.5 miles, the other is 7 miles. There is no desense between radios and both operate fine without interference issues. 7. While Tom may be experiencing the tower rental issues regarding antennas, we have not seen this in the NE. Most leases we have negotiated are based around wind loading on the tower. Like everything, dual polarity antennas have a place like all other equipment. The link just needs to be engineered to operate properly. -B- -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http
Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Ah..Lets do some math... Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output. For this example there is no line loss. The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation. Here we go... +20 dB -30dB xpole = -10 dB receive level. In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the opposite polarityNo??? Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should have receiver blocking... -B- Matt Liotta wrote: Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably. -Matt Jason Wallace wrote: List, When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves). However, when they are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling. Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between adjacent channels). I think you will always have trouble overloading the receiver when transmitting with this setup. -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Charles, What equipment did you use to build up your WISP? Also what did you start with and what did you end up with? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC 114 S. Walnut St. Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 6:55 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Hi, I would recommend that you do some research on the terms dynamic range and front-end compression as it relates to your particular hardware / radio platform. Understanding those terms / concepts will give you the understanding you need to make your homebrew system work Otherwise, if you want to just plug and pray your network -- you're better off probably just buying quality name brand products that have enough built-in safeties to let one just mindlessly deploy -Charles P.S. -- although I happen to have an understanding of Rf theory, HAM stuff, and Radio engineering, when I ran my WISP, I found that in the long run, it made better business sense to subscribe to a lazy WISP plug-and-pray mentality due to the fact that I liked knowing that I could focus my core efforts on sales, marketing and customer service. From a deployment side, I could just put some stuff up and have the ability to blame all my system mishaps on my friendly manufacturer / vendor =) --- WiNOG Austin, TX March 13-15, 2006 http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 6:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Ah..Lets do some math... Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output. For this example there is no line loss. The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation. Here we go... +20 dB -30dB xpole = -10 dB receive level. In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the opposite polarityNo??? Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should have receiver blocking... -B- Matt Liotta wrote: Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably. -Matt Jason Wallace wrote: List, When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves). However, when they are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling. Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between adjacent channels). I think you will always have trouble overloading the receiver when transmitting with this setup. -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.18/230 - Release Date: 1/14/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Mmm let me guess, he started with wavelan or probably lucent Orinoco ended up with Trango and / or Canopy before he sold out... for Millions! I started with Raylink... ended up with Canopy Gino A. Villarini, Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.aeronetpr.com 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 3:12 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Charles, What equipment did you use to build up your WISP? Also what did you start with and what did you end up with? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC 114 S. Walnut St. Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 6:55 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Hi, I would recommend that you do some research on the terms dynamic range and front-end compression as it relates to your particular hardware / radio platform. Understanding those terms / concepts will give you the understanding you need to make your homebrew system work Otherwise, if you want to just plug and pray your network -- you're better off probably just buying quality name brand products that have enough built-in safeties to let one just mindlessly deploy -Charles P.S. -- although I happen to have an understanding of Rf theory, HAM stuff, and Radio engineering, when I ran my WISP, I found that in the long run, it made better business sense to subscribe to a lazy WISP plug-and-pray mentality due to the fact that I liked knowing that I could focus my core efforts on sales, marketing and customer service. From a deployment side, I could just put some stuff up and have the ability to blame all my system mishaps on my friendly manufacturer / vendor =) --- WiNOG Austin, TX March 13-15, 2006 http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 6:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Ah..Lets do some math... Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output. For this example there is no line loss. The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation. Here we go... +20 dB -30dB xpole = -10 dB receive level. In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the opposite polarityNo??? Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should have receiver blocking... -B- Matt Liotta wrote: Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably. -Matt Jason Wallace wrote: List, When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves). However, when they are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling. Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between adjacent channels). I think you will always have trouble overloading the receiver when transmitting with this setup. -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.18/230 - Release Date: 1/14/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Radios are WRAP/CM9's with StarOS on RadioWaves SPD2-5.2NS. Is there anything special you do/use to get this to work? Only things I can see that would help are band pass filters. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 15 January 2006 23:53 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna I should revise that to say we do it on dual polarity antennas. Not 2 radios on one antenna -B- Bob Moldashel wrote: Paul, We do this all the time. Explain what model radios and how you are doing this?? I'll try to help. -B- Paul Hendry wrote: Has anyone successfully installed more than 1 radio on a single antenna with virtually no interference between links? We had originally planned to run 2 simultaneous links on dual polarized 5GHz RadioWaves parabolics however once installed we found that only 1 link could be used at any one time regardless of channel separation due to interference. Now the set-up is being used to provide redundancy but would much prefer double the capacity. If anyone has achieved a similar thing would they share how they achieved it? Hoping that some 5GHz band pass filters could be the answer but can only locate 2.4 variants at present L Cheers, P. -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 - Release Date: 13/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.18/230 - Release Date: 14/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Radios can't be on the same channels obviously. We have a link presently running with the same configuration 2 channels apart without issues. A dual polarity antenna is going to seperate the two by 15-25 dB. Make sure the tx power is equal on both radios and it should work without issue. Now if we could just get the freakin' routing to work correctly we would be fine. -B- Paul Hendry wrote: Radios are WRAP/CM9's with StarOS on RadioWaves SPD2-5.2NS. Is there anything special you do/use to get this to work? Only things I can see that would help are band pass filters. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 15 January 2006 23:53 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna I should revise that to say we do it on dual polarity antennas. Not 2 radios on one antenna -B- Bob Moldashel wrote: Paul, We do this all the time. Explain what model radios and how you are doing this?? I'll try to help. -B- Paul Hendry wrote: Has anyone successfully installed more than 1 radio on a single antenna with virtually no interference between links? We had originally planned to run 2 simultaneous links on dual polarized 5GHz RadioWaves parabolics however once installed we found that only 1 link could be used at any one time regardless of channel separation due to interference. Now the set-up is being used to provide redundancy but would much prefer double the capacity. If anyone has achieved a similar thing would they share how they achieved it? Hoping that some 5GHz band pass filters could be the answer but can only locate 2.4 variants at present L Cheers, P. -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Why would you use an isolator If we are talking possible adjacent channel interference then an isolator is not the cure, aditional filtering would be. But most equipment should be able to work in this environment without it. I have sites that have 4 WRAP boards with CM9's sitting right next to each other on the next adjacent channel with no issues. In addition, the loss of power is not acceptable (though it wouldn't be half power at 5GHz.). -B- Richard Goodin wrote: Go to some of the hard core LMR delers and ask for isolators, (They will cut your power in half). Your LMR dealer will need to know power, frequency, type of connectors. This may work, I do not know. - Original Message - *From:* Paul Hendry mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* 'WISPA General List' mailto:wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Monday, January 16, 2006 5:14 AM *Subject:* RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna Radios are WRAP/CM9's with StarOS on RadioWaves SPD2-5.2NS. Is there anything special you do/use to get this to work? Only things I can see that would help are band pass filters. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob Moldashel Sent: 15 January 2006 23:53 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna I should revise that to say we do it on dual polarity antennas. Not 2 radios on one antenna -B- -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Has anyone successfully installed more than 1 radio on a single antenna with virtually no interference between links? We had originally planned to run 2 simultaneous links on dual polarized 5GHz RadioWaves parabolics however once installed we found that only 1 link could be used at any one time regardless of channel separation due to interference. Now the set-up is being used to provide redundancy but would much prefer double the capacity. If anyone has achieved a similar thing would they share how they achieved it? Hoping that some 5GHz band pass filters could be the answer but can only locate 2.4 variants at present L Cheers, P. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 - Release Date: 13/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 - Release Date: 13/01/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna
Paul, We do this all the time. Explain what model radios and how you are doing this?? I'll try to help. -B- Paul Hendry wrote: Has anyone successfully installed more than 1 radio on a single antenna with virtually no interference between links? We had originally planned to run 2 simultaneous links on dual polarized 5GHz RadioWaves parabolics however once installed we found that only 1 link could be used at any one time regardless of channel separation due to interference. Now the set-up is being used to provide redundancy but would much prefer double the capacity. If anyone has achieved a similar thing would they share how they achieved it? Hoping that some 5GHz band pass filters could be the answer but can only locate 2.4 variants at present L Cheers, P. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 - Release Date: 13/01/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 - Release Date: 13/01/2006 -- Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. Broadband Deployment Group 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, New York 11741 USA 800-479-9195 Toll Free US Canada 631-585-5558 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
