Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
Sam, The problem here is how do you define a monopoly, a The definition is of course "the other provider" :-) No seriously, definition of Monopoly... 1) I believe to own the title of a "Monopoly", there has to be some scale involved. Anyone under 10mil annual revenue is exempt. 2) A Monopoly is someone that has an advantage that creates a unpassable barrier to entry for their competitor. Monopoly does NOT mean "only/sole provider" in town. A WISP could NEVER be a "Monopoly", because anyone else can start a WISP in town, anyday that they like. A new entrant however, can not have the exclusive franchise that the other already has. Or the cash scale, to take all or nothing of the huge statewide market, qualifying for the rights. Nor is it viable to dig up the streets and lay new cable, and have a chance at profitabilty, with the minimal market share of the few that would initially convert. When we competed against Cox, when it came down to it, they just gave broadband away for free, until we went away, as their operations were subsidized by all the other live markets. If their market won't bear the cost for an independent ISP to offer service than the argument has been settled that the public is satisfied with the price/performance that they are receiving. Wrong, monopoloes existing is what prevents that from being true. The monopoly provider has unfair leverage that can squash the new entrant, even if a good percentage of the consumers would desire it. Its the above mentality that allows the US to be 17 place horders behind the rest of the world in Broadband. The truth is, the public will settle for less than they want, and take the best deal they can find, but that does not mean that they are "satisfied". Encouraging competition is what forces providers to give more, so that eventually consumers will also get what they want and be "satisfied". Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Sam Tetherow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 12:56 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P Tom DeReggi wrote: No offense taken. Its the opinions from all, that allows us to reconsider a better balanced perspective. I may have been a "bit over the top" on my previous statements, but none the less, I do not agree with Comcast's position on this topic. It doesn't sit right with me, and I don't think it will sit right with the consumers. Apparently, some others agree, or the News arcticle would not have been written, and caught significant media attention in other publications as well. Only time watching the situation will determine whether most consumers will agree or disagree with that type of methods. My opinion stems deep from one core principle Monopolies "exclusive franchises that subsidize their broadband product" should not have the same rights as independant ISPs. When someone is a Monopoly the arguement "Its my network, I have the right to do what ever I want" doesn't really apply, as the Monopoly network is also the primary sometimes only network to serve the majority public in an area, and therefore the "people's" only network in practicality. True competition does not yet exist for all consumers. These exclusive franchise rights have been extended by the county or state to the provider, and the Government works for the people. Therefore the people should have some say in what practices their monopoly provider practices. Comcast is a monopoly or as near it as a company can possibly be. One company should not be able to make the decision of what is and is not acceptable for consumers use on the Public Internet. And I consider Comcast part of the "public Internet". There is an obligation by these Broadband monopolies to live by example, and deal with these topics in the absolute most ethical way. Because if they can't do it, at their volume, no one can. I am not convinced that Comcast has found the most ethical way to handle the p2p issue. I do believe they are exploring to find it, and testing the waters of what consumers feel is ethical, and everyone else will learn from it. The problem here is how do you define a monopoly, and can that definition ever change? Was I the monopoly when I was the only guy in town providing high speed? Did I lose that distinction when Qwest finally started offering DSL? Side note: Your arguement on comparing smtp tarpiting to p2p blocking does have merit, but depending on how stringent it is configured. What thresholds for max connections is acceptable to consider something an attack versus a legitimate high volume communication? And are the tarpiting rules treating different senders differently?
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
Tom DeReggi wrote: No offense taken. Its the opinions from all, that allows us to reconsider a better balanced perspective. I may have been a "bit over the top" on my previous statements, but none the less, I do not agree with Comcast's position on this topic. It doesn't sit right with me, and I don't think it will sit right with the consumers. Apparently, some others agree, or the News arcticle would not have been written, and caught significant media attention in other publications as well. Only time watching the situation will determine whether most consumers will agree or disagree with that type of methods. My opinion stems deep from one core principle Monopolies "exclusive franchises that subsidize their broadband product" should not have the same rights as independant ISPs. When someone is a Monopoly the arguement "Its my network, I have the right to do what ever I want" doesn't really apply, as the Monopoly network is also the primary sometimes only network to serve the majority public in an area, and therefore the "people's" only network in practicality. True competition does not yet exist for all consumers. These exclusive franchise rights have been extended by the county or state to the provider, and the Government works for the people. Therefore the people should have some say in what practices their monopoly provider practices. Comcast is a monopoly or as near it as a company can possibly be. One company should not be able to make the decision of what is and is not acceptable for consumers use on the Public Internet. And I consider Comcast part of the "public Internet". There is an obligation by these Broadband monopolies to live by example, and deal with these topics in the absolute most ethical way. Because if they can't do it, at their volume, no one can. I am not convinced that Comcast has found the most ethical way to handle the p2p issue. I do believe they are exploring to find it, and testing the waters of what consumers feel is ethical, and everyone else will learn from it. The problem here is how do you define a monopoly, and can that definition ever change? Was I the monopoly when I was the only guy in town providing high speed? Did I lose that distinction when Qwest finally started offering DSL? Side note: Your arguement on comparing smtp tarpiting to p2p blocking does have merit, but depending on how stringent it is configured. What thresholds for max connections is acceptable to consider something an attack versus a legitimate high volume communication? And are the tarpiting rules treating different senders differently? What if Comcast's tarpit was set to allow 1 Email an hour from ISPX, and argue 2 messages an hour was abuse, would that be ethical at those thresholds? If ATT did the same thing, and said it would allow up to 2 simultaneous connectiosn from Sprint customers but 50 connections from a TimeWarner customer in an effort to drive custoemrs from Sprint, would it be ethical? Should an end user not be allowed to do ANY p2p, or what max number of sessions is an OK number? As long as it is disclosed I don't think there is anything wrong with it. I get charged more if I call someone on Sprint's cell network than if I call someone on Alltel's network. I am biased on these issues because I am daily competing against these guys. I loose business to them on some occasions because they quote their "6mbps unlimited access", winning over my "1mbps access". Yet, my customers may be able to outperform Comcast with Voip or Keeping their IPOD updated with songs (p2p), because of our more liberal non-blocking policies. For me the big issue is disclosure, so consumers can make decissions considering all factors. I don;t see any of Comcast's sales literature exposing their methods? Sure there are acceptable use policies, but do end users really understand what they are reading? Do they have a choice if they don't like what they read? They always have a choice. Pretty much anyone can start a wireless ISP and there are hundreds of people on this list that prove that point, some of us have larger learning curves than others but I poll of previous occupations would probably produce some interesting reading. If their market won't bear the cost for an independent ISP to offer service than the argument has been settled that the public is satisfied with the price/performance that they are receiving. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.isp
RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
On Sun, 21 Oct 2007, CHUCK PROFITO wrote: Not for the General List ?? I'm confused...what is not for the General List? -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
On Sun, 21 Oct 2007, Mac Dearman wrote: Did you sit in on Image Stream's conversations about "packet limiting?" I am going to have to find out a little more about that myself. You are a "well connected" guy, Maccall in your "people" and it shall be done! :-) -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
Not for the General List Chuck Profito 209-988-7388 CV-ACCESS, INC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providing High Speed Broadband to Rural Central California -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mac Dearman Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 9:03 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P Travis, Did you sit in on Image Stream's conversations about "packet limiting?" I am going to have to find out a little more about that myself. Mac > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Travis Johnson > Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 8:46 PM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P > > Marlon, > > I'm glad using the metered model works for you... but not in this > area, nor ANY other area where there is cable, DSL, and 2-10 other > wireless providers that do not charge based on usage. Yes, I believe > it is a better model overall, but until the big boys (CableOne, > ComCast, Qwest, AT&T, etc.) adopt this model, it will never sell on a > large scale. > > Travis > Microserv > > Marlon K. Schafer wrote: > > Sheesh guys, do like we do. Make money from this stuff. > > > > We bill out hundreds of dollars per month in overage fees when > > people > go over their 6 gig transfer limit. We do NOT control what they do > but we do charge them. Just like, um, lets see, gas, food, clothes, > electricity, water, tires, etc. > > > > We've also found that we're able to get the attention of our > customers quite quickly and are able to clean up spyware, virus', and > bots much better because suddenly those with the power to fix the > problems have a reason to. It's been a VERY good program for us. > > > > Here's how we track it. http://radius.odessaoffice.com/iptrack > > > > laters, > > marlon > > > > - Original Message - > > From: Travis Johnson > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; WISPA General List > > Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 12:56 PM > > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P > > > > > > I would have to agree. They did it to save costs, which includes > bandwidth, transport, equipment upgrades, etc. If I run our network > wide open (which I do from 6:00PM to 7:00AM), we see p2p traffic using > 25% of our total bandwidth. > > > > Travis > > Microserv > > > > David E. Smith wrote: > > On Fri, October 19, 2007 2:24 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote: > > > > Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect > dollars. > > Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload even > with > > BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for the > > peering relationships if anything because of their ratios. > > > > Given that I know nothing about the internals of Comcast's network, > > I strongly suspect this is not the case. They're not a Tier-1, and > > they don't generally offer transit. They're one of the biggest > > end-user > ISPs in > > the States, and based on sheer volume they probably have some pretty > sweet > > arrangements, but I really doubt they do enough hosting on their own > that > > others are paying them for the privilege of talking to Comcast subs. > > > > What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy > Comcast you > > get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve > > performance because we control the majority market, and we won't let > > you play > with our > > clients in a favorable manner. > > > > A majority of what market? Even as big as Comcast is, they're > > nowhere > near > > 50% of America's broadband users, and if that's not the market > > you're referring to, I don't know what you do mean. > > > > Folks not using Comcast will have few or no problems with their p2p > needs, > > as there are plenty of other ISPs in this country alone (and a > > couple hundred other countries as well). Meanwhile, folks using > > Comcast in markets where they're doing edge-p2p-filtering will get > > cranky > because > > their friend on DSL can download (whatever warez-y stuff) 84 times > faster, > > and may well leave Comcast because of it. When this first came to > light a > > couple months ago, the nerd rage on Slashdot was positively > > palpable, > and > > while it was probably 98% smoke, I doubt very much it wa
RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
Travis, Did you sit in on Image Stream's conversations about "packet limiting?" I am going to have to find out a little more about that myself. Mac > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Travis Johnson > Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 8:46 PM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P > > Marlon, > > I'm glad using the metered model works for you... but not in this area, > nor ANY other area where there is cable, DSL, and 2-10 other wireless > providers that do not charge based on usage. Yes, I believe it is a > better model overall, but until the big boys (CableOne, ComCast, Qwest, > AT&T, etc.) adopt this model, it will never sell on a large scale. > > Travis > Microserv > > Marlon K. Schafer wrote: > > Sheesh guys, do like we do. Make money from this stuff. > > > > We bill out hundreds of dollars per month in overage fees when people > go over their 6 gig transfer limit. We do NOT control what they do but > we do charge them. Just like, um, lets see, gas, food, clothes, > electricity, water, tires, etc. > > > > We've also found that we're able to get the attention of our > customers quite quickly and are able to clean up spyware, virus', and > bots much better because suddenly those with the power to fix the > problems have a reason to. It's been a VERY good program for us. > > > > Here's how we track it. http://radius.odessaoffice.com/iptrack > > > > laters, > > marlon > > > > - Original Message - > > From: Travis Johnson > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; WISPA General List > > Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 12:56 PM > > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P > > > > > > I would have to agree. They did it to save costs, which includes > bandwidth, transport, equipment upgrades, etc. If I run our network > wide open (which I do from 6:00PM to 7:00AM), we see p2p traffic using > 25% of our total bandwidth. > > > > Travis > > Microserv > > > > David E. Smith wrote: > > On Fri, October 19, 2007 2:24 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote: > > > > Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect > dollars. > > Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload even > with > > BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for the > > peering relationships if anything because of their ratios. > > > > Given that I know nothing about the internals of Comcast's network, I > > strongly suspect this is not the case. They're not a Tier-1, and they > > don't generally offer transit. They're one of the biggest end-user > ISPs in > > the States, and based on sheer volume they probably have some pretty > sweet > > arrangements, but I really doubt they do enough hosting on their own > that > > others are paying them for the privilege of talking to Comcast subs. > > > > What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy > Comcast you > > get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve > > performance > > because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play > with our > > clients in a favorable manner. > > > > A majority of what market? Even as big as Comcast is, they're nowhere > near > > 50% of America's broadband users, and if that's not the market you're > > referring to, I don't know what you do mean. > > > > Folks not using Comcast will have few or no problems with their p2p > needs, > > as there are plenty of other ISPs in this country alone (and a couple > > hundred other countries as well). Meanwhile, folks using Comcast in > > markets where they're doing edge-p2p-filtering will get cranky > because > > their friend on DSL can download (whatever warez-y stuff) 84 times > faster, > > and may well leave Comcast because of it. When this first came to > light a > > couple months ago, the nerd rage on Slashdot was positively palpable, > and > > while it was probably 98% smoke, I doubt very much it was 100% smoke. > > > > Comcast has the right to do whatever they want - their network, their > > rules. Really, though, I just don't see WHY they would choose to make > this > > particular move, if not to save on peering costs. > > > > David Smith > > MVN.net > > > > - > --- > > > > ** Join us
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
Marlon, I'm glad using the metered model works for you... but not in this area, nor ANY other area where there is cable, DSL, and 2-10 other wireless providers that do not charge based on usage. Yes, I believe it is a better model overall, but until the big boys (CableOne, ComCast, Qwest, AT&T, etc.) adopt this model, it will never sell on a large scale. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Sheesh guys, do like we do. Make money from this stuff. We bill out hundreds of dollars per month in overage fees when people go over their 6 gig transfer limit. We do NOT control what they do but we do charge them. Just like, um, lets see, gas, food, clothes, electricity, water, tires, etc. We've also found that we're able to get the attention of our customers quite quickly and are able to clean up spyware, virus', and bots much better because suddenly those with the power to fix the problems have a reason to. It's been a VERY good program for us. Here's how we track it. http://radius.odessaoffice.com/iptrack laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; WISPA General List Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 12:56 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P I would have to agree. They did it to save costs, which includes bandwidth, transport, equipment upgrades, etc. If I run our network wide open (which I do from 6:00PM to 7:00AM), we see p2p traffic using 25% of our total bandwidth. Travis Microserv David E. Smith wrote: On Fri, October 19, 2007 2:24 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote: Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect dollars. Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload even with BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for the peering relationships if anything because of their ratios. Given that I know nothing about the internals of Comcast's network, I strongly suspect this is not the case. They're not a Tier-1, and they don't generally offer transit. They're one of the biggest end-user ISPs in the States, and based on sheer volume they probably have some pretty sweet arrangements, but I really doubt they do enough hosting on their own that others are paying them for the privilege of talking to Comcast subs. What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy Comcast you get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve performance because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play with our clients in a favorable manner. A majority of what market? Even as big as Comcast is, they're nowhere near 50% of America's broadband users, and if that's not the market you're referring to, I don't know what you do mean. Folks not using Comcast will have few or no problems with their p2p needs, as there are plenty of other ISPs in this country alone (and a couple hundred other countries as well). Meanwhile, folks using Comcast in markets where they're doing edge-p2p-filtering will get cranky because their friend on DSL can download (whatever warez-y stuff) 84 times faster, and may well leave Comcast because of it. When this first came to light a couple months ago, the nerd rage on Slashdot was positively palpable, and while it was probably 98% smoke, I doubt very much it was 100% smoke. Comcast has the right to do whatever they want - their network, their rules. Really, though, I just don't see WHY they would choose to make this particular move, if not to save on peering costs. David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
Sheesh guys, do like we do. Make money from this stuff. We bill out hundreds of dollars per month in overage fees when people go over their 6 gig transfer limit. We do NOT control what they do but we do charge them. Just like, um, lets see, gas, food, clothes, electricity, water, tires, etc. We've also found that we're able to get the attention of our customers quite quickly and are able to clean up spyware, virus', and bots much better because suddenly those with the power to fix the problems have a reason to. It's been a VERY good program for us. Here's how we track it. http://radius.odessaoffice.com/iptrack laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; WISPA General List Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 12:56 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P I would have to agree. They did it to save costs, which includes bandwidth, transport, equipment upgrades, etc. If I run our network wide open (which I do from 6:00PM to 7:00AM), we see p2p traffic using 25% of our total bandwidth. Travis Microserv David E. Smith wrote: On Fri, October 19, 2007 2:24 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote: Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect dollars. Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload even with BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for the peering relationships if anything because of their ratios. Given that I know nothing about the internals of Comcast's network, I strongly suspect this is not the case. They're not a Tier-1, and they don't generally offer transit. They're one of the biggest end-user ISPs in the States, and based on sheer volume they probably have some pretty sweet arrangements, but I really doubt they do enough hosting on their own that others are paying them for the privilege of talking to Comcast subs. What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy Comcast you get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve performance because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play with our clients in a favorable manner. A majority of what market? Even as big as Comcast is, they're nowhere near 50% of America's broadband users, and if that's not the market you're referring to, I don't know what you do mean. Folks not using Comcast will have few or no problems with their p2p needs, as there are plenty of other ISPs in this country alone (and a couple hundred other countries as well). Meanwhile, folks using Comcast in markets where they're doing edge-p2p-filtering will get cranky because their friend on DSL can download (whatever warez-y stuff) 84 times faster, and may well leave Comcast because of it. When this first came to light a couple months ago, the nerd rage on Slashdot was positively palpable, and while it was probably 98% smoke, I doubt very much it was 100% smoke. Comcast has the right to do whatever they want - their network, their rules. Really, though, I just don't see WHY they would choose to make this particular move, if not to save on peering costs. David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
A layman's version (i.e. "File sharing programs such as Limewire will be slower than other traffic, 128Kbps compared to the standard 5120Kbps") should be included along with a technical version. Very well said. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Brian Whigham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 9:33 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P On Fri, 2007-10-19 at 13:01 -0500, David E. Smith wrote: CHUCK PROFITO wrote: > http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071019/D8SCASQ80.html Comcast has been doing this for a few months, actually. By most accounts, the traffic is throttled at their network edges - i.e. two Comcast customers can trade files all they want, the throttling only kicks in when one of them tries to exchange data with a non-Comcast peer. My network throttles peer-to-peer traffic because that traffic does really nasty things to our customer APs (the last-mile hop). Comcast isn't doing anything there, according to the reports I've seen. They're probably trying to save a few bucks on interconnectivity and peering agreements, on the assumption that traffic within their already-existing network is "free." David Smith MVN.net "Comcast does not block access to any applications, including BitTorrent," The problem with any provider who does traffic shaping is the marketing. Customers are being deceived. Providers have been lying or simply not telling customers about such shaping for years. Customers expect a vanilla, uninhibited service, either best effort or a guaranteed speed. Anything less should be explicitly and plainly described in a prominent place near the offers/service definitions themselves. Shaping, blocked ports and similar restrictions should be included in this limitations description. A layman's version (i.e. "File sharing programs such as Limewire will be slower than other traffic, 128Kbps compared to the standard 5120Kbps") should be included along with a technical version. Brian ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.3/1081 - Release Date: 10/19/2007 5:41 PM ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
No offense taken. Its the opinions from all, that allows us to reconsider a better balanced perspective. I may have been a "bit over the top" on my previous statements, but none the less, I do not agree with Comcast's position on this topic. It doesn't sit right with me, and I don't think it will sit right with the consumers. Apparently, some others agree, or the News arcticle would not have been written, and caught significant media attention in other publications as well. Only time watching the situation will determine whether most consumers will agree or disagree with that type of methods. My opinion stems deep from one core principle Monopolies "exclusive franchises that subsidize their broadband product" should not have the same rights as independant ISPs. When someone is a Monopoly the arguement "Its my network, I have the right to do what ever I want" doesn't really apply, as the Monopoly network is also the primary sometimes only network to serve the majority public in an area, and therefore the "people's" only network in practicality. True competition does not yet exist for all consumers. These exclusive franchise rights have been extended by the county or state to the provider, and the Government works for the people. Therefore the people should have some say in what practices their monopoly provider practices. Comcast is a monopoly or as near it as a company can possibly be. One company should not be able to make the decision of what is and is not acceptable for consumers use on the Public Internet. And I consider Comcast part of the "public Internet". There is an obligation by these Broadband monopolies to live by example, and deal with these topics in the absolute most ethical way. Because if they can't do it, at their volume, no one can. I am not convinced that Comcast has found the most ethical way to handle the p2p issue. I do believe they are exploring to find it, and testing the waters of what consumers feel is ethical, and everyone else will learn from it. Side note: Your arguement on comparing smtp tarpiting to p2p blocking does have merit, but depending on how stringent it is configured. What thresholds for max connections is acceptable to consider something an attack versus a legitimate high volume communication? And are the tarpiting rules treating different senders differently? What if Comcast's tarpit was set to allow 1 Email an hour from ISPX, and argue 2 messages an hour was abuse, would that be ethical at those thresholds? If ATT did the same thing, and said it would allow up to 2 simultaneous connectiosn from Sprint customers but 50 connections from a TimeWarner customer in an effort to drive custoemrs from Sprint, would it be ethical? Should an end user not be allowed to do ANY p2p, or what max number of sessions is an OK number? I am biased on these issues because I am daily competing against these guys. I loose business to them on some occasions because they quote their "6mbps unlimited access", winning over my "1mbps access". Yet, my customers may be able to outperform Comcast with Voip or Keeping their IPOD updated with songs (p2p), because of our more liberal non-blocking policies. For me the big issue is disclosure, so consumers can make decissions considering all factors. I don;t see any of Comcast's sales literature exposing their methods? Sure there are acceptable use policies, but do end users really understand what they are reading? Do they have a choice if they don't like what they read? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 1:32 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P On Fri, 19 Oct 2007, Tom DeReggi wrote: Interesting arcticle. Certainly it was. It was well written BS! My belief is that any ISP has the right to control usage of their network. But this arcticle was most interesting because it was addressing what are the ethical ways to accomplish that. The last We are in agreement on your first sentence, but the second begins the "issue" I have with what appears to be a stance that I would disagree with. few sentances summarizing of the arcticle homing in on the issue. Basically bringing out that Comcast's action are unscrupulous because the actions are happening behind the scenes, hiding that This part I agree with, too. If they are attempting to "hide" the fact that they are doing it, then that is, in my opinion, a poor decision. These days, you can't get away with that sort of thing. they are the cause blocking the peer to peer trafic. They are misrepresenting their identity on the PCs (identity Fraud). But This is
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
On Sat, 20 Oct 2007, George Rogato wrote: I'm not sure if we're talking about limiting the connections just for torrents, or for everything. There are many ways to limit connections. With iptables (and considerable time and effort), you can put together quite a complex set of tests to limit torrents without even testing for p2p. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
I'm not sure if we're talking about limiting the connections just for torrents, or for everything. If you can limit the connections just for torrents and leave everything else wide open, that would be great, but if by limiting the connections for everything, then that is not the solution being sought after. What was said by many others at the conference was limit the torrents and at the same time be able to ftp or mail what ever at a much higher rate. Butch Evans wrote: On Fri, 19 Oct 2007, George Rogato wrote: A couple names that came up was Imagestream, who says they can control the amount of connections to help control p2p. Jeff will step in and correct me if I'm wrong. You are correct. Mikrotik can do the same. ANY Linux based system can limit connections, because it's built into iptables. Frankly, this is the method I use to set up QOS (part of it, anyway), because it is the ONLY effective way to limit the negative impact of these torrents. ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
They are using Sandvine to do it: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r18323368-Comcast-is-using-Sandvine-to-manage-P2P-Connections Here is a list of many USA ISP's shaping them: http://www.azureuswiki.com/index.php/Bad_ISPs#United_States_of_America Someone a while back posted a link on how to get around it? -- Original Message -- From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: WISPA General List Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 20:26:03 -0400 >In all fairness... This thread is not about whether it is right or wrong to >block p2p. We probably all agree how harmful p2p traffic can be. >Its essential to try and block it. > >The unsure part is What is an ethical way to block it. > >An ISP may have the right to define what goes accross its network, but an >ISP does not have the right to re-write the constitution or federal law, on >their own. >And Competition laws, Privacy laws, Consumer Laws, and Identity Laws are >things that exist. Just like Calea... the issue is "privacy" not >necessarilly whether we feel its god or bad to help our country's law >enforcement. It will be interesting to see how these topics play out. But >more so how large providers will hide behind these excuses "Protecting the >Performance of their network" to leverage their way around Network >Neutrality issues, for their competitive advantage. > >Tom DeReggi >RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband > > >- Original Message - >From: "David E. Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "WISPA General List" >Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 5:51 PM >Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P > > >> Scottie Arnett wrote: >> >>> Forgot to mention...if BT clients would not come with deafult connections >>> set at 500 to 1000, I might allow it to. That is where it kills our >>> equipment...the connections, not the bandwidth. >> >> Concur, and THAT is why I limit p2p traffic on my network. >> >> Frankly, I couldn't care less what my customers are downloading, only how >> they're downloading it. >> >> We all know that some really big percentage of p2p traffic is the sharing >> of copyrighted material that may be illegal to share, but saying that's >> the reason for throttling p2p traffic is probably pretty thorny, from a >> legal standpoint. Explaining it in technical terms (all these connections >> kills the tower and annoys other users) is safer, and as a bonus is >> completely true. It's actually more effective on many of my customers, who >> suddenly realize that the folks being affected by their selfish p2p >> downloads are friends and neighbors. Psychology, used correctly, can be >> just as effective as a Packeteer. >> >> David Smith >> MVN.net >> >> >> ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at >> ISPCON ** >> ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** >> ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** >> ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** >> ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at >> http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** >> >> >> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >> http://signup.wispa.org/ >> >> >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >> >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >> >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: >> 269.15.1/1079 - Release Date: 10/19/2007 5:10 AM >> >> > > > >** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at >ISPCON ** >** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** >** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** >** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** >** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at >http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** > > >WISPA Wants You! Join today! >http://signup.wispa.org/ >---
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
On Fri, 2007-10-19 at 13:01 -0500, David E. Smith wrote: > CHUCK PROFITO wrote: > > http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071019/D8SCASQ80.html > > Comcast has been doing this for a few months, actually. By most > accounts, the traffic is throttled at their network edges - i.e. two > Comcast customers can trade files all they want, the throttling only > kicks in when one of them tries to exchange data with a non-Comcast peer. > > My network throttles peer-to-peer traffic because that traffic does > really nasty things to our customer APs (the last-mile hop). Comcast > isn't doing anything there, according to the reports I've seen. > > They're probably trying to save a few bucks on interconnectivity and > peering agreements, on the assumption that traffic within their > already-existing network is "free." > > David Smith > MVN.net "Comcast does not block access to any applications, including BitTorrent," The problem with any provider who does traffic shaping is the marketing. Customers are being deceived. Providers have been lying or simply not telling customers about such shaping for years. Customers expect a vanilla, uninhibited service, either best effort or a guaranteed speed. Anything less should be explicitly and plainly described in a prominent place near the offers/service definitions themselves. Shaping, blocked ports and similar restrictions should be included in this limitations description. A layman's version (i.e. "File sharing programs such as Limewire will be slower than other traffic, 128Kbps compared to the standard 5120Kbps") should be included along with a technical version. Brian ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
On Fri, 19 Oct 2007, Tom DeReggi wrote: Interesting arcticle. Certainly it was. It was well written BS! My belief is that any ISP has the right to control usage of their network. But this arcticle was most interesting because it was addressing what are the ethical ways to accomplish that. The last We are in agreement on your first sentence, but the second begins the "issue" I have with what appears to be a stance that I would disagree with. few sentances summarizing of the arcticle homing in on the issue. Basically bringing out that Comcast's action are unscrupulous because the actions are happening behind the scenes, hiding that This part I agree with, too. If they are attempting to "hide" the fact that they are doing it, then that is, in my opinion, a poor decision. These days, you can't get away with that sort of thing. they are the cause blocking the peer to peer trafic. They are misrepresenting their identity on the PCs (identity Fraud). But This is an inaccurate assumption and application of the term "identity fraud". What they are (most likely) doing is sending a TCP reset packet, which is the best way to accomplish the task. most importantly, they are intercepting someone else's data communication stream and barging in on the conversation (Invasion of Privacy). Get real. Invasion of privacy? You are serious? This is in NO WAY close to invasion of privacy. They are simply interrupting a communication that they do no wish to transport on their network. If they were capturing the data, parsing it and looking to see who was talking to who and what they are saying, then I'd be more inclined to agree. Is running a proxy server on your network an invasion of privacy? Log files from a squid server get closer to permitting a true invasion of privacy that what Comcast is doing. For example, simply blocking a BitTorrent or slowing iut down would be OK, as you aren't joining the conversation, just blocking it. But jumping in on the conversation and sending back false information across someone else's Bittorrent conversation is clearly a violation of privacy. That is is a "violation of privacy" is not so clear to me. In fact, I can't even stretch and say that I think it is remotely similar to invasion of privacy. This is simply a "non-issue", unless they are parsing the data of an individual subscriber, which they MAY be doing, but it is another topic that is not related to their handling of Bittorrent. Wait until they decide its a good idea to apply the same principle to Email delivery. Scary. Hmmm...I have done something similar with email as well. Mail destined for my mail server where the rate of new connections exceeds a threshold from a single IP will get you in an address list of folks that will see nothing but tarpit responses from my firewall. Does this qualify as scary? I think you are WAY over the top on this one, Tom. I generally appreciate your reasoned responses, but this, IMHO, is a bit too much. I did not intend to be offensive in my responses, and I would ask that you accept my apologies offered in advance if they come across that way. These are the things I hate most. Companies blocking, but not being man enough to step up to the plate and tell their client base how they are blocking it. They are deceiving their clients. But yet, If they are deceiving customers, then the market will discover this and they will pay. I am not so certain that they don't disclose this to new customers. For me, we always notified our customers that running a server on the network was not allowed, and even included a reference to fileshare apps in that paragraph of the AUP. Any changes I made to the network usage policy, could (in some cases) require an update to the AUP, which was available online and was made available to new subs. I did not, however, inform customers when this policy was updated. consumers are jumping to sign up, not being aware how they may be limited once they do. Most users don't understand the issue at all. Many of them are completely unaware of the harm they are doing to the network, and are, generally, understanding once it is explained to them. Comcast is simply turning off the ability for users to UPLOAD via bittorrent. This will affect a small number (percentage) of users, and is well within their rights to do. If they pay a price in attrition, then it will prove to be a bad choice, but I, for one, think they will gain rather than lose as a result of this choice. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCO
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
On Fri, 19 Oct 2007, Tom DeReggi wrote: What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy Comcast you get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you Isn't that an ideal public perception? I mean, if I could get people to understand that one reason my network is better than network X is performance (or any other aspect), then that is beneficial, right? Come on...this is an argument FOR what Comcast is doing, IMHO. we won't let you play with our clients in a favorable manner. This is EXACTLY what NetNetrality is about, having a different standard for clients of another provider than one has for their Net Neutrality is BS anyway. (Hope I can abbreviate the "curse" word). And this move has NOTHING to do with neutrality anyway. Perhaps an argument can be made to make it seem that way, but it is (at least in part) about network management. I see nothing wrong with what Comcast did. In fact, I applaud their willingness to stand up and say enough is enough. The simple fact is that this software is a "killer app" (not the kind we were looking for, but one that is killer to the network). own. If they Equally blocked BitTotrrent for their own subscribers, then it could be argued they are treating all traffic equally, and not a NetNetrality violation, but just a Privacy violation. Privacy? Give me a break. I'll post a response to your other post related to privacy, but the idea that it can be argued that "equally blocking" bit torrent flows in both directions is the "best way" to handle this traffic is nonsense. More in my next post... -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
On Fri, 19 Oct 2007, Mike Hammett wrote: Mikrotik can control raw connections as well, but UDP is not connection based. Absolutely correct. However, the linux iptables connection tracking does not care if it is UDP or TCP. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
On Fri, 19 Oct 2007, George Rogato wrote: A couple names that came up was Imagestream, who says they can control the amount of connections to help control p2p. Jeff will step in and correct me if I'm wrong. You are correct. Mikrotik can do the same. ANY Linux based system can limit connections, because it's built into iptables. Frankly, this is the method I use to set up QOS (part of it, anyway), because it is the ONLY effective way to limit the negative impact of these torrents. Which, by the way, is (IMHO) a VERY accurate name (note definitions 2 and 4). tor??rent - noun 1. a stream of water flowing with great rapidity and violence. 2. a rushing, violent, or abundant and unceasing stream of anything: a torrent of lava. 3. a violent downpour of rain. 4. a violent, tumultuous, or overwhelming flow: a torrent of abuse. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
Mikrotik can control raw connections as well, but UDP is not connection based. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 8:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P Funny this came up today in the paper. At this last weeks ISPCON, one of the hot finds us wisps were actively looking for on the tradeshow floor was bandwidth management appliance that we can use to control encrypted torrents and at the same time give the user high bandwidth for the other intermitant applications. I didn't hear anyone saying they wanted to turn off the torrents or p2p, but rather control it so it plays nice with the network. A couple names that came up was Imagestream, who says they can control the amount of connections to help control p2p. Jeff will step in and correct me if I'm wrong. And then there was Dennis' Itenic bandwidth manager that is supposed to work. And on the ispcon floor there was a couple other companies that had products they too said they could control p2p. So this article is like a bulls eye for a hot topic. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
Funny this came up today in the paper. At this last weeks ISPCON, one of the hot finds us wisps were actively looking for on the tradeshow floor was bandwidth management appliance that we can use to control encrypted torrents and at the same time give the user high bandwidth for the other intermitant applications. I didn't hear anyone saying they wanted to turn off the torrents or p2p, but rather control it so it plays nice with the network. A couple names that came up was Imagestream, who says they can control the amount of connections to help control p2p. Jeff will step in and correct me if I'm wrong. And then there was Dennis' Itenic bandwidth manager that is supposed to work. And on the ispcon floor there was a couple other companies that had products they too said they could control p2p. So this article is like a bulls eye for a hot topic. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
What gets you peers is a balanced ratio. If it exceeds a certain ratio, whomever is the one that initiates the transaction is usually the one that pays. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 7:15 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play with our clients in a favorable manner. My mistake, "majority Market" was not the right word. Almost "Largest percentage of the market" might be more appropriate. My understanding is that Comcast has the second largest share of Residential users next to TimeWarner. However, I'm not sure I understand your perspective on Comcast. I'll give you that Comcast is not in the market of selling Transit not a Tier1. But they definately peer. If they aren't charging others to access their eyeballs, they are fools, because they have the power, market share, and download ratios to demand it. Many of Comcast's markets, they are the sole single provider option (within similar price range), therefore have leverage to demand with less fear that their client base will move. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "David E. Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 3:43 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P On Fri, October 19, 2007 2:24 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote: Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect dollars. Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload even with BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for the peering relationships if anything because of their ratios. Given that I know nothing about the internals of Comcast's network, I strongly suspect this is not the case. They're not a Tier-1, and they don't generally offer transit. They're one of the biggest end-user ISPs in the States, and based on sheer volume they probably have some pretty sweet arrangements, but I really doubt they do enough hosting on their own that others are paying them for the privilege of talking to Comcast subs. What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy Comcast you get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve performance because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play with our clients in a favorable manner. A majority of what market? Even as big as Comcast is, they're nowhere near 50% of America's broadband users, and if that's not the market you're referring to, I don't know what you do mean. Folks not using Comcast will have few or no problems with their p2p needs, as there are plenty of other ISPs in this country alone (and a couple hundred other countries as well). Meanwhile, folks using Comcast in markets where they're doing edge-p2p-filtering will get cranky because their friend on DSL can download (whatever warez-y stuff) 84 times faster, and may well leave Comcast because of it. When this first came to light a couple months ago, the nerd rage on Slashdot was positively palpable, and while it was probably 98% smoke, I doubt very much it was 100% smoke. Comcast has the right to do whatever they want - their network, their rules. Really, though, I just don't see WHY they would choose to make this particular move, if not to save on peering costs. David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.1/1079 - Release Date: 10/19/2007 5:10 AM ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
In all fairness... This thread is not about whether it is right or wrong to block p2p. We probably all agree how harmful p2p traffic can be. Its essential to try and block it. The unsure part is What is an ethical way to block it. An ISP may have the right to define what goes accross its network, but an ISP does not have the right to re-write the constitution or federal law, on their own. And Competition laws, Privacy laws, Consumer Laws, and Identity Laws are things that exist. Just like Calea... the issue is "privacy" not necessarilly whether we feel its god or bad to help our country's law enforcement. It will be interesting to see how these topics play out. But more so how large providers will hide behind these excuses "Protecting the Performance of their network" to leverage their way around Network Neutrality issues, for their competitive advantage. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "David E. Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 5:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P Scottie Arnett wrote: Forgot to mention...if BT clients would not come with deafult connections set at 500 to 1000, I might allow it to. That is where it kills our equipment...the connections, not the bandwidth. Concur, and THAT is why I limit p2p traffic on my network. Frankly, I couldn't care less what my customers are downloading, only how they're downloading it. We all know that some really big percentage of p2p traffic is the sharing of copyrighted material that may be illegal to share, but saying that's the reason for throttling p2p traffic is probably pretty thorny, from a legal standpoint. Explaining it in technical terms (all these connections kills the tower and annoys other users) is safer, and as a bonus is completely true. It's actually more effective on many of my customers, who suddenly realize that the folks being affected by their selfish p2p downloads are friends and neighbors. Psychology, used correctly, can be just as effective as a Packeteer. David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.1/1079 - Release Date: 10/19/2007 5:10 AM ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play with our clients in a favorable manner. My mistake, "majority Market" was not the right word. Almost "Largest percentage of the market" might be more appropriate. My understanding is that Comcast has the second largest share of Residential users next to TimeWarner. However, I'm not sure I understand your perspective on Comcast. I'll give you that Comcast is not in the market of selling Transit not a Tier1. But they definately peer. If they aren't charging others to access their eyeballs, they are fools, because they have the power, market share, and download ratios to demand it. Many of Comcast's markets, they are the sole single provider option (within similar price range), therefore have leverage to demand with less fear that their client base will move. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "David E. Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 3:43 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P On Fri, October 19, 2007 2:24 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote: Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect dollars. Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload even with BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for the peering relationships if anything because of their ratios. Given that I know nothing about the internals of Comcast's network, I strongly suspect this is not the case. They're not a Tier-1, and they don't generally offer transit. They're one of the biggest end-user ISPs in the States, and based on sheer volume they probably have some pretty sweet arrangements, but I really doubt they do enough hosting on their own that others are paying them for the privilege of talking to Comcast subs. What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy Comcast you get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve performance because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play with our clients in a favorable manner. A majority of what market? Even as big as Comcast is, they're nowhere near 50% of America's broadband users, and if that's not the market you're referring to, I don't know what you do mean. Folks not using Comcast will have few or no problems with their p2p needs, as there are plenty of other ISPs in this country alone (and a couple hundred other countries as well). Meanwhile, folks using Comcast in markets where they're doing edge-p2p-filtering will get cranky because their friend on DSL can download (whatever warez-y stuff) 84 times faster, and may well leave Comcast because of it. When this first came to light a couple months ago, the nerd rage on Slashdot was positively palpable, and while it was probably 98% smoke, I doubt very much it was 100% smoke. Comcast has the right to do whatever they want - their network, their rules. Really, though, I just don't see WHY they would choose to make this particular move, if not to save on peering costs. David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.1/1079 - Release Date: 10/19/2007 5:10 AM ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
I must say, I misworded my statements. We allow it, but throttle and shape it. If they fixed the problems with it, I would let it go full throttle should have been how I worded it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David E. Smith Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 4:52 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P Scottie Arnett wrote: > Forgot to mention...if BT clients would not come with deafult > connections set at 500 to 1000, I might allow it to. That is where it > kills our equipment...the connections, not the bandwidth. Concur, and THAT is why I limit p2p traffic on my network. Frankly, I couldn't care less what my customers are downloading, only how they're downloading it. We all know that some really big percentage of p2p traffic is the sharing of copyrighted material that may be illegal to share, but saying that's the reason for throttling p2p traffic is probably pretty thorny, from a legal standpoint. Explaining it in technical terms (all these connections kills the tower and annoys other users) is safer, and as a bonus is completely true. It's actually more effective on many of my customers, who suddenly realize that the folks being affected by their selfish p2p downloads are friends and neighbors. Psychology, used correctly, can be just as effective as a Packeteer. David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.1/1079 - Release Date: 10/19/2007 5:10 AM -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 2481 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.1/1079 - Release Date: 10/19/2007 5:10 AM --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
> from a legal standpoint. Explaining it in technical terms (all these > connections kills the tower and annoys other users) is safer, and as a > bonus is completely true. It's actually more effective on many of my > customers, who suddenly realize that the folks being affected by their > selfish p2p downloads are friends and neighbors. Psychology, used > correctly, can be just as effective as a Packeteer. Tell they switch too cable or dsl and say they did it because its not a problem there. Of course if they were major bandwidth hogs what the hey. Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
Scottie Arnett wrote: Forgot to mention...if BT clients would not come with deafult connections set at 500 to 1000, I might allow it to. That is where it kills our equipment...the connections, not the bandwidth. Concur, and THAT is why I limit p2p traffic on my network. Frankly, I couldn't care less what my customers are downloading, only how they're downloading it. We all know that some really big percentage of p2p traffic is the sharing of copyrighted material that may be illegal to share, but saying that's the reason for throttling p2p traffic is probably pretty thorny, from a legal standpoint. Explaining it in technical terms (all these connections kills the tower and annoys other users) is safer, and as a bonus is completely true. It's actually more effective on many of my customers, who suddenly realize that the folks being affected by their selfish p2p downloads are friends and neighbors. Psychology, used correctly, can be just as effective as a Packeteer. David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
Mikrotik just released a new update today with "improved warez/ares p2p protocol matching". Travis Microserv Matt wrote: 25 ?! You're lucky. If I stop my Mikrotik queues based on all-p2p matching via firewall mangles, the network will come to a stop because usage will go to 99%. I limit p2p down & uploads to 1kbps. Sue me. My experience anymore is Mikrotik cannot do a very good job at catching it anymore. They encrypt the packets now days to make it very difficult. I still think the best option is to let users eat as much as they want but at peak times throttle the bandwidth hogs back to make sure it works well for everyone else. Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
I was talking on my backbone to my upstreams... which is currently running at 105Mbps incoming x 45Mbps outgoing. 25% of the incoming is p2p if I turn off my queues. I don't see how 99% of your traffic could be p2p, because people will still be surfing and checking email, etc. which will have to get shared as the nature of tcp allows. Travis Microserv Smith, Rick wrote: 25 ?! You're lucky. If I stop my Mikrotik queues based on all-p2p matching via firewall mangles, the network will come to a stop because usage will go to 99%. I limit p2p down & uploads to 1kbps. Sue me. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 3:56 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P I would have to agree. They did it to save costs, which includes bandwidth, transport, equipment upgrades, etc. If I run our network wide open (which I do from 6:00PM to 7:00AM), we see p2p traffic using 25% of our total bandwidth. Travis Microserv David E. Smith wrote: On Fri, October 19, 2007 2:24 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote: Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect dollars. Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload even with BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for the peering relationships if anything because of their ratios. Given that I know nothing about the internals of Comcast's network, I strongly suspect this is not the case. They're not a Tier-1, and they don't generally offer transit. They're one of the biggest end-user ISPs in the States, and based on sheer volume they probably have some pretty sweet arrangements, but I really doubt they do enough hosting on their own that others are paying them for the privilege of talking to Comcast subs. What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy Comcast you get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve performance because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play with our clients in a favorable manner. A majority of what market? Even as big as Comcast is, they're nowhere near 50% of America's broadband users, and if that's not the market you're referring to, I don't know what you do mean. Folks not using Comcast will have few or no problems with their p2p needs, as there are plenty of other ISPs in this country alone (and a couple hundred other countries as well). Meanwhile, folks using Comcast in markets where they're doing edge-p2p-filtering will get cranky because their friend on DSL can download (whatever warez-y stuff) 84 times faster, and may well leave Comcast because of it. When this first came to light a couple months ago, the nerd rage on Slashdot was positively palpable, and while it was probably 98% smoke, I doubt very much it was 100% smoke. Comcast has the right to do whatever they want - their network, their rules. Really, though, I just don't see WHY they would choose to make this particular move, if not to save on peering costs. David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --
RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
Forgot to mention...if BT clients would not come with deafult connections set at 500 to 1000, I might allow it to. That is where it kills our equipment...the connections, not the bandwidth. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David E. Smith Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 4:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P Scottie Arnett wrote: > In my opinion, if they have something legit to transfer, they can > setup and use ftp. It works faster anyways IMHO. You've obviously never been on a well-seeded torrent. :) Seriously, plug yourself into your NOC right after a "big" Linux release (the new version of Ubuntu, released earlier this week, would be a good example). One of the fellows in my office did this yesterday, and was pulling about 30Mbps for the (very brief) time he needed to download the CD image. You may need a fairly new computer, to be sure the networking stack and hard drive can keep up. A few years back, I did this same experiment with an older notebook; somewhere around 8Mbps, the laptop just locked up, and the hard drive (which was audibly crunching from all the random writes being asked of it) never worked again :( Not many Web sites or FTP servers, aside from ones set up specifically for this sort of thing, match that speed. The best downloads I normally get from Microsoft (presumably an Akamai mirror of them, actually) is maybe 10-15Mbps. From a purely technical standpoint, BitTorrent is amazingly efficient at distributing copies of bits. It's those other things like economics that are such a problem at times... David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.1/1079 - Release Date: 10/19/2007 5:10 AM -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 2481 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.1/1079 - Release Date: 10/19/2007 5:10 AM --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
> 25 ?! You're lucky. If I stop my Mikrotik queues based on all-p2p > matching via firewall mangles, the network > > will come to a stop because usage will go to 99%. > > > > I limit p2p down & uploads to 1kbps. Sue me. My experience anymore is Mikrotik cannot do a very good job at catching it anymore. They encrypt the packets now days to make it very difficult. I still think the best option is to let users eat as much as they want but at peak times throttle the bandwidth hogs back to make sure it works well for everyone else. Matt ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
I can understand what you are saying, it BT is an efficient way to send data. The problem lies in the 99.998% of what is transferred is illegal files that are copyrighted. If BT could take care of that problem, I might allow it on my network. For now, I use ftp. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David E. Smith Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 4:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P Scottie Arnett wrote: > In my opinion, if they have something legit to transfer, they can > setup and use ftp. It works faster anyways IMHO. You've obviously never been on a well-seeded torrent. :) Seriously, plug yourself into your NOC right after a "big" Linux release (the new version of Ubuntu, released earlier this week, would be a good example). One of the fellows in my office did this yesterday, and was pulling about 30Mbps for the (very brief) time he needed to download the CD image. You may need a fairly new computer, to be sure the networking stack and hard drive can keep up. A few years back, I did this same experiment with an older notebook; somewhere around 8Mbps, the laptop just locked up, and the hard drive (which was audibly crunching from all the random writes being asked of it) never worked again :( Not many Web sites or FTP servers, aside from ones set up specifically for this sort of thing, match that speed. The best downloads I normally get from Microsoft (presumably an Akamai mirror of them, actually) is maybe 10-15Mbps. From a purely technical standpoint, BitTorrent is amazingly efficient at distributing copies of bits. It's those other things like economics that are such a problem at times... David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.1/1079 - Release Date: 10/19/2007 5:10 AM -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 2481 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.1/1079 - Release Date: 10/19/2007 5:10 AM --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com for information. ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
Except for the growing number of perfectly legal things available via P2P systems (Linux discs, updates for Blizzard Entertainment's World of Warcraft which surpassed 9 million subscribers in July, Wikipedia CD, OpenOffice, I've heard that Steam's 13 million users might be adopting P2P). - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 3:56 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P In my opinion, if they have something legit to transfer, they can setup and use ftp. It works faster anyways IMHO. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Smith, Rick Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 3:28 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P 25 ?! You're lucky. If I stop my Mikrotik queues based on all-p2p matching via firewall mangles, the network will come to a stop because usage will go to 99%. I limit p2p down & uploads to 1kbps. Sue me. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 3:56 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P I would have to agree. They did it to save costs, which includes bandwidth, transport, equipment upgrades, etc. If I run our network wide open (which I do from 6:00PM to 7:00AM), we see p2p traffic using 25% of our total bandwidth. Travis Microserv David E. Smith wrote: On Fri, October 19, 2007 2:24 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote: Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect dollars. Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload even with BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for the peering relationships if anything because of their ratios. Given that I know nothing about the internals of Comcast's network, I strongly suspect this is not the case. They're not a Tier-1, and they don't generally offer transit. They're one of the biggest end-user ISPs in the States, and based on sheer volume they probably have some pretty sweet arrangements, but I really doubt they do enough hosting on their own that others are paying them for the privilege of talking to Comcast subs. What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy Comcast you get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve performance because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play with our clients in a favorable manner. A majority of what market? Even as big as Comcast is, they're nowhere near 50% of America's broadband users, and if that's not the market you're referring to, I don't know what you do mean. Folks not using Comcast will have few or no problems with their p2p needs, as there are plenty of other ISPs in this country alone (and a couple hundred other countries as well). Meanwhile, folks using Comcast in markets where they're doing edge-p2p-filtering will get cranky because their friend on DSL can download (whatever warez-y stuff) 84 times faster, and may well leave Comcast because of it. When this first came to light a couple months ago, the nerd rage on Slashdot was positively palpable, and while it was probably 98% smoke, I doubt very much it was 100% smoke. Comcast has the right to do whatever they want - their network, their rules. Really, though, I just don't see WHY they would choose to make this particular move, if not to save on peering costs. David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** -
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
Except for the growing number of perfectly legal things available via P2P systems (Linux discs, updates for Blizzard Entertainment's World of Warcraft which surpassed 9 million subscribers in July, Wikipedia CD, OpenOffice, I've heard that Steam's 13 million users might be adopting P2P). - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 3:56 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P In my opinion, if they have something legit to transfer, they can setup and use ftp. It works faster anyways IMHO. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Smith, Rick Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 3:28 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P 25 ?! You're lucky. If I stop my Mikrotik queues based on all-p2p matching via firewall mangles, the network will come to a stop because usage will go to 99%. I limit p2p down & uploads to 1kbps. Sue me. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 3:56 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P I would have to agree. They did it to save costs, which includes bandwidth, transport, equipment upgrades, etc. If I run our network wide open (which I do from 6:00PM to 7:00AM), we see p2p traffic using 25% of our total bandwidth. Travis Microserv David E. Smith wrote: On Fri, October 19, 2007 2:24 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote: Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect dollars. Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload even with BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for the peering relationships if anything because of their ratios. Given that I know nothing about the internals of Comcast's network, I strongly suspect this is not the case. They're not a Tier-1, and they don't generally offer transit. They're one of the biggest end-user ISPs in the States, and based on sheer volume they probably have some pretty sweet arrangements, but I really doubt they do enough hosting on their own that others are paying them for the privilege of talking to Comcast subs. What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy Comcast you get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve performance because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play with our clients in a favorable manner. A majority of what market? Even as big as Comcast is, they're nowhere near 50% of America's broadband users, and if that's not the market you're referring to, I don't know what you do mean. Folks not using Comcast will have few or no problems with their p2p needs, as there are plenty of other ISPs in this country alone (and a couple hundred other countries as well). Meanwhile, folks using Comcast in markets where they're doing edge-p2p-filtering will get cranky because their friend on DSL can download (whatever warez-y stuff) 84 times faster, and may well leave Comcast because of it. When this first came to light a couple months ago, the nerd rage on Slashdot was positively palpable, and while it was probably 98% smoke, I doubt very much it was 100% smoke. Comcast has the right to do whatever they want - their network, their rules. Really, though, I just don't see WHY they would choose to make this particular move, if not to save on peering costs. David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** -
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
Scottie Arnett wrote: In my opinion, if they have something legit to transfer, they can setup and use ftp. It works faster anyways IMHO. You've obviously never been on a well-seeded torrent. :) Seriously, plug yourself into your NOC right after a "big" Linux release (the new version of Ubuntu, released earlier this week, would be a good example). One of the fellows in my office did this yesterday, and was pulling about 30Mbps for the (very brief) time he needed to download the CD image. You may need a fairly new computer, to be sure the networking stack and hard drive can keep up. A few years back, I did this same experiment with an older notebook; somewhere around 8Mbps, the laptop just locked up, and the hard drive (which was audibly crunching from all the random writes being asked of it) never worked again :( Not many Web sites or FTP servers, aside from ones set up specifically for this sort of thing, match that speed. The best downloads I normally get from Microsoft (presumably an Akamai mirror of them, actually) is maybe 10-15Mbps. From a purely technical standpoint, BitTorrent is amazingly efficient at distributing copies of bits. It's those other things like economics that are such a problem at times... David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
In my opinion, if they have something legit to transfer, they can setup and use ftp. It works faster anyways IMHO. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Smith, Rick Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 3:28 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P 25 ?! You're lucky. If I stop my Mikrotik queues based on all-p2p matching via firewall mangles, the network will come to a stop because usage will go to 99%. I limit p2p down & uploads to 1kbps. Sue me. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 3:56 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P I would have to agree. They did it to save costs, which includes bandwidth, transport, equipment upgrades, etc. If I run our network wide open (which I do from 6:00PM to 7:00AM), we see p2p traffic using 25% of our total bandwidth. Travis Microserv David E. Smith wrote: On Fri, October 19, 2007 2:24 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote: Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect dollars. Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload even with BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for the peering relationships if anything because of their ratios. Given that I know nothing about the internals of Comcast's network, I strongly suspect this is not the case. They're not a Tier-1, and they don't generally offer transit. They're one of the biggest end-user ISPs in the States, and based on sheer volume they probably have some pretty sweet arrangements, but I really doubt they do enough hosting on their own that others are paying them for the privilege of talking to Comcast subs. What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy Comcast you get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve performance because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play with our clients in a favorable manner. A majority of what market? Even as big as Comcast is, they're nowhere near 50% of America's broadband users, and if that's not the market you're referring to, I don't know what you do mean. Folks not using Comcast will have few or no problems with their p2p needs, as there are plenty of other ISPs in this country alone (and a couple hundred other countries as well). Meanwhile, folks using Comcast in markets where they're doing edge-p2p-filtering will get cranky because their friend on DSL can download (whatever warez-y stuff) 84 times faster, and may well leave Comcast because of it. When this first came to light a couple months ago, the nerd rage on Slashdot was positively palpable, and while it was probably 98% smoke, I doubt very much it was 100% smoke. Comcast has the right to do whatever they want - their network, their rules. Really, though, I just don't see WHY they would choose to make this particular move, if not to save on peering costs. David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edi
RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
25 ?! You're lucky. If I stop my Mikrotik queues based on all-p2p matching via firewall mangles, the network will come to a stop because usage will go to 99%. I limit p2p down & uploads to 1kbps. Sue me. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 3:56 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P I would have to agree. They did it to save costs, which includes bandwidth, transport, equipment upgrades, etc. If I run our network wide open (which I do from 6:00PM to 7:00AM), we see p2p traffic using 25% of our total bandwidth. Travis Microserv David E. Smith wrote: On Fri, October 19, 2007 2:24 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote: Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect dollars. Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload even with BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for the peering relationships if anything because of their ratios. Given that I know nothing about the internals of Comcast's network, I strongly suspect this is not the case. They're not a Tier-1, and they don't generally offer transit. They're one of the biggest end-user ISPs in the States, and based on sheer volume they probably have some pretty sweet arrangements, but I really doubt they do enough hosting on their own that others are paying them for the privilege of talking to Comcast subs. What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy Comcast you get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve performance because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play with our clients in a favorable manner. A majority of what market? Even as big as Comcast is, they're nowhere near 50% of America's broadband users, and if that's not the market you're referring to, I don't know what you do mean. Folks not using Comcast will have few or no problems with their p2p needs, as there are plenty of other ISPs in this country alone (and a couple hundred other countries as well). Meanwhile, folks using Comcast in markets where they're doing edge-p2p-filtering will get cranky because their friend on DSL can download (whatever warez-y stuff) 84 times faster, and may well leave Comcast because of it. When this first came to light a couple months ago, the nerd rage on Slashdot was positively palpable, and while it was probably 98% smoke, I doubt very much it was 100% smoke. Comcast has the right to do whatever they want - their network, their rules. Really, though, I just don't see WHY they would choose to make this particular move, if not to save on peering costs. David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
I would have to agree. They did it to save costs, which includes bandwidth, transport, equipment upgrades, etc. If I run our network wide open (which I do from 6:00PM to 7:00AM), we see p2p traffic using 25% of our total bandwidth. Travis Microserv David E. Smith wrote: On Fri, October 19, 2007 2:24 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote: Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect dollars. Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload even with BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for the peering relationships if anything because of their ratios. Given that I know nothing about the internals of Comcast's network, I strongly suspect this is not the case. They're not a Tier-1, and they don't generally offer transit. They're one of the biggest end-user ISPs in the States, and based on sheer volume they probably have some pretty sweet arrangements, but I really doubt they do enough hosting on their own that others are paying them for the privilege of talking to Comcast subs. What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy Comcast you get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve performance because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play with our clients in a favorable manner. A majority of what market? Even as big as Comcast is, they're nowhere near 50% of America's broadband users, and if that's not the market you're referring to, I don't know what you do mean. Folks not using Comcast will have few or no problems with their p2p needs, as there are plenty of other ISPs in this country alone (and a couple hundred other countries as well). Meanwhile, folks using Comcast in markets where they're doing edge-p2p-filtering will get cranky because their friend on DSL can download (whatever warez-y stuff) 84 times faster, and may well leave Comcast because of it. When this first came to light a couple months ago, the nerd rage on Slashdot was positively palpable, and while it was probably 98% smoke, I doubt very much it was 100% smoke. Comcast has the right to do whatever they want - their network, their rules. Really, though, I just don't see WHY they would choose to make this particular move, if not to save on peering costs. David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
On Fri, October 19, 2007 2:24 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote: > Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect dollars. > Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload even with > BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for the > peering relationships if anything because of their ratios. Given that I know nothing about the internals of Comcast's network, I strongly suspect this is not the case. They're not a Tier-1, and they don't generally offer transit. They're one of the biggest end-user ISPs in the States, and based on sheer volume they probably have some pretty sweet arrangements, but I really doubt they do enough hosting on their own that others are paying them for the privilege of talking to Comcast subs. > What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy Comcast you > get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve > performance > because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play with our > clients in a favorable manner. A majority of what market? Even as big as Comcast is, they're nowhere near 50% of America's broadband users, and if that's not the market you're referring to, I don't know what you do mean. Folks not using Comcast will have few or no problems with their p2p needs, as there are plenty of other ISPs in this country alone (and a couple hundred other countries as well). Meanwhile, folks using Comcast in markets where they're doing edge-p2p-filtering will get cranky because their friend on DSL can download (whatever warez-y stuff) 84 times faster, and may well leave Comcast because of it. When this first came to light a couple months ago, the nerd rage on Slashdot was positively palpable, and while it was probably 98% smoke, I doubt very much it was 100% smoke. Comcast has the right to do whatever they want - their network, their rules. Really, though, I just don't see WHY they would choose to make this particular move, if not to save on peering costs. David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
They're probably trying to save a few bucks on interconnectivity and peering agreements, on the assumption that traffic within their already-existing network is "free." Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect dollars. Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload even with BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for the peering relationships if anything because of their ratios. What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy Comcast you get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve performance because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play with our clients in a favorable manner. This is EXACTLY what NetNetrality is about, having a different standard for clients of another provider than one has for their own. If they Equally blocked BitTotrrent for their own subscribers, then it could be argued they are treating all traffic equally, and not a NetNetrality violation, but just a Privacy violation. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "David E. Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 2:01 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P CHUCK PROFITO wrote: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071019/D8SCASQ80.html Comcast has been doing this for a few months, actually. By most accounts, the traffic is throttled at their network edges - i.e. two Comcast customers can trade files all they want, the throttling only kicks in when one of them tries to exchange data with a non-Comcast peer. My network throttles peer-to-peer traffic because that traffic does really nasty things to our customer APs (the last-mile hop). Comcast isn't doing anything there, according to the reports I've seen. They're probably trying to save a few bucks on interconnectivity and peering agreements, on the assumption that traffic within their already-existing network is "free." David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.1/1079 - Release Date: 10/19/2007 5:10 AM ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
very well said. I would not assume the right to totally block any traffic, but there's nothing wrong with slowing it down as long as honesty is the main policy. even the strongest torrent user can't deny the fairness of slowing them down so others can brows/use the internet at a good speed. Luke - Original Message - From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P Interesting arcticle. My belief is that any ISP has the right to control usage of their network. But this arcticle was most interesting because it was addressing what are the ethical ways to accomplish that. The last few sentances summarizing of the arcticle homing in on the issue. Basically bringing out that Comcast's action are unscrupulous because the actions are happening behind the scenes, hiding that they are the cause blocking the peer to peer trafic. They are misrepresenting their identity on the PCs (identity Fraud). But most importantly, they are intercepting someone else's data communication stream and barging in on the conversation (Invasion of Privacy). For example, simply blocking a BitTorrent or slowing iut down would be OK, as you aren't joining the conversation, just blocking it. But jumping in on the conversation and sending back false information across someone else's Bittorrent conversation is clearly a violation of privacy. Wait until they decide its a good idea to apply the same principle to Email delivery. Scary. These are the things I hate most. Companies blocking, but not being man enough to step up to the plate and tell their client base how they are blocking it. They are deceiving their clients. But yet, consumers are jumping to sign up, not being aware how they may be limited once they do. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "CHUCK PROFITO" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 1:17 PM Subject: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071019/D8SCASQ80.html Chuck Profito 209-988-7388 CV-ACCESS, INC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providing High Speed Broadband to Rural Central California ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.1/1079 - Release Date: 10/19/2007 5:10 AM ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
Interesting arcticle. My belief is that any ISP has the right to control usage of their network. But this arcticle was most interesting because it was addressing what are the ethical ways to accomplish that. The last few sentances summarizing of the arcticle homing in on the issue. Basically bringing out that Comcast's action are unscrupulous because the actions are happening behind the scenes, hiding that they are the cause blocking the peer to peer trafic. They are misrepresenting their identity on the PCs (identity Fraud). But most importantly, they are intercepting someone else's data communication stream and barging in on the conversation (Invasion of Privacy). For example, simply blocking a BitTorrent or slowing iut down would be OK, as you aren't joining the conversation, just blocking it. But jumping in on the conversation and sending back false information across someone else's Bittorrent conversation is clearly a violation of privacy. Wait until they decide its a good idea to apply the same principle to Email delivery. Scary. These are the things I hate most. Companies blocking, but not being man enough to step up to the plate and tell their client base how they are blocking it. They are deceiving their clients. But yet, consumers are jumping to sign up, not being aware how they may be limited once they do. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "CHUCK PROFITO" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 1:17 PM Subject: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071019/D8SCASQ80.html Chuck Profito 209-988-7388 CV-ACCESS, INC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providing High Speed Broadband to Rural Central California ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.1/1079 - Release Date: 10/19/2007 5:10 AM ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
CHUCK PROFITO wrote: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071019/D8SCASQ80.html Comcast has been doing this for a few months, actually. By most accounts, the traffic is throttled at their network edges - i.e. two Comcast customers can trade files all they want, the throttling only kicks in when one of them tries to exchange data with a non-Comcast peer. My network throttles peer-to-peer traffic because that traffic does really nasty things to our customer APs (the last-mile hop). Comcast isn't doing anything there, according to the reports I've seen. They're probably trying to save a few bucks on interconnectivity and peering agreements, on the assumption that traffic within their already-existing network is "free." David Smith MVN.net ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/