Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Chuck McCown - 2]

We are fully mortgaged to the RUS on our ILEC operation. 5% money was hard 
to turn down.  But yes, they want all the security it is possible to get.

- Original Message - 
From: "Todd Brandenburg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


> For your information (since I'm assuming your referring to us) that we 
> went through a full 2 1/2 years with the RUS to make the decision not to 
> take the loans.  The main reason (which is a huge one) that we turned down 
> the deal was that the government wanted first lien position on not only 
> the equipment but the whole company, which was a non starter in the end. 
> As I look back to 2003 it was best decision we made because we did not 
> have to be beholding to the government and all the red tape.  As it was, 
> we invested too much time and energy while the government wrote the rules 
> and procedures at our expense.  If they held up these markets it was not 
> on our doing but rather the government lack of re-releasing them.  The way 
> it was as I remember is that "substantial broadband service" was mostly 
> already available through other providers already (LEC, MSO, etc).
>
> I guess before you make claims and assumptions you better have your facts 
> straight...
>
>
> Todd Brandenburg
> President
> PocketiNet Communications, Inc.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 2008-06-24 09:51
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>
> In my area, a local WISP applied for every loan and grant that exists for 
> a
> hundred miles or more in all directions.They didn't use any of the 
> loan
> proceeds, but it prevented anyone else from getting it - which was what 
> they
> were after.
>
>
> 
> 
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Chuck McCown - 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 6:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>
>
>> BTW, the WISPs did in fact have to build the community center, and staff
>> it,
>> and do classes etc.  Big pain in my opinion.  So in the cases I know of 
>> (I
>> am the upstream provider for a couple of these) they did do all they were
>> supposed to do.
>> I will have to argue the point the loans are easier to get the grants. 
>> It
>> typically takes me 3 years to get a new loan for a new ILEC that has 
>> never
>> borrowed before.  I have seen the WISP grants go through in 6 months or
>> less.  Huge difference. I know for a fact that one WISP (nationwide 
>> outfit
>> the filed for everything on the map) lied about the areas being
>> underserved
>> or unserved.  They filed on areas we actually serve as a WISP.  We took
>> the
>> RUS field rep around and proved to him that not only was there DSL in the
>> area but a WISP too.  Not alot of due diligence was done by the RUS in
>> these
>> cases.
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 3:00 AM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>>
>>
>>> Thats a croc. If that was done, it was the exception, that was snuck
>>> under
>>> the radar and done against the rules. And could be easilly protested by
>>> the
>>> DSL service providers previously in existence serving the area.  Not 
>>> that
>>> I
>>> would protest a WISP winning money.
>>>
>>> Chuck,
>>> Are you sure you aren't talking about RUS loans? Its much easier getting
>>> RUS
>>> loans. The Community Connect grant program was very specific on its
>>> rules.
>>> One loop holes was, if you found one area that met the qualification, 
>>> you
>>> could use the funds to build your backhaul through served areas. The RUS
>>> money couldn't be used for the end user deployments in that area, but so
>>> what, a WISP could afford that, once they got a grant to pay for the
>>> Backhaul and towers.
>>>
>>> The RUS grant wasn't really designed for a WISP's typical model. It was
>>> more
>>> designed to build the "community center" and the staff to run it, and
>>> teach
>>> the community, more than it was to bring broadband to the homes
>>

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Todd Brandenburg]

For your information (since I'm assuming your referring to us) that we went 
through a full 2 1/2 years with the RUS to make the decision not to take the 
loans.  The main reason (which is a huge one) that we turned down the deal was 
that the government wanted first lien position on not only the equipment but 
the whole company, which was a non starter in the end.  As I look back to 2003 
it was best decision we made because we did not have to be beholding to the 
government and all the red tape.  As it was, we invested too much time and 
energy while the government wrote the rules and procedures at our expense.  If 
they held up these markets it was not on our doing but rather the government 
lack of re-releasing them.  The way it was as I remember is that "substantial 
broadband service" was mostly already available through other providers already 
(LEC, MSO, etc).

I guess before you make claims and assumptions you better have your facts 
straight... 


Todd Brandenburg
President
PocketiNet Communications, Inc.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 2008-06-24 09:51
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

In my area, a local WISP applied for every loan and grant that exists for a 
hundred miles or more in all directions.They didn't use any of the loan 
proceeds, but it prevented anyone else from getting it - which was what they 
were after.





- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck McCown - 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 6:53 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


> BTW, the WISPs did in fact have to build the community center, and staff 
> it,
> and do classes etc.  Big pain in my opinion.  So in the cases I know of (I
> am the upstream provider for a couple of these) they did do all they were
> supposed to do.
> I will have to argue the point the loans are easier to get the grants.  It
> typically takes me 3 years to get a new loan for a new ILEC that has never
> borrowed before.  I have seen the WISP grants go through in 6 months or
> less.  Huge difference. I know for a fact that one WISP (nationwide outfit
> the filed for everything on the map) lied about the areas being 
> underserved
> or unserved.  They filed on areas we actually serve as a WISP.  We took 
> the
> RUS field rep around and proved to him that not only was there DSL in the
> area but a WISP too.  Not alot of due diligence was done by the RUS in 
> these
> cases.
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 3:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>
>
>> Thats a croc. If that was done, it was the exception, that was snuck 
>> under
>> the radar and done against the rules. And could be easilly protested by
>> the
>> DSL service providers previously in existence serving the area.  Not that
>> I
>> would protest a WISP winning money.
>>
>> Chuck,
>> Are you sure you aren't talking about RUS loans? Its much easier getting
>> RUS
>> loans. The Community Connect grant program was very specific on its 
>> rules.
>> One loop holes was, if you found one area that met the qualification, you
>> could use the funds to build your backhaul through served areas. The RUS
>> money couldn't be used for the end user deployments in that area, but so
>> what, a WISP could afford that, once they got a grant to pay for the
>> Backhaul and towers.
>>
>> The RUS grant wasn't really designed for a WISP's typical model. It was
>> more
>> designed to build the "community center" and the staff to run it, and
>> teach
>> the community, more than it was to bring broadband to the homes
>> themselves.
>>
>> Tom DeReggi
>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Chuck McCown - 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 11:28 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>>
>>
>>>I can show you towns that have DSL where the RUS gave a local WISP a very
>>> nice grant to put in service.
>>> The RUS is even loaning companies to compete with RBOCs.
>>> - Original Message - 
>>> From: "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
>>> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 10:13 PM
&

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[reader]

In my area, a local WISP applied for every loan and grant that exists for a 
hundred miles or more in all directions.They didn't use any of the loan 
proceeds, but it prevented anyone else from getting it - which was what they 
were after.





- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck McCown - 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 6:53 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


> BTW, the WISPs did in fact have to build the community center, and staff 
> it,
> and do classes etc.  Big pain in my opinion.  So in the cases I know of (I
> am the upstream provider for a couple of these) they did do all they were
> supposed to do.
> I will have to argue the point the loans are easier to get the grants.  It
> typically takes me 3 years to get a new loan for a new ILEC that has never
> borrowed before.  I have seen the WISP grants go through in 6 months or
> less.  Huge difference. I know for a fact that one WISP (nationwide outfit
> the filed for everything on the map) lied about the areas being 
> underserved
> or unserved.  They filed on areas we actually serve as a WISP.  We took 
> the
> RUS field rep around and proved to him that not only was there DSL in the
> area but a WISP too.  Not alot of due diligence was done by the RUS in 
> these
> cases.
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 3:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>
>
>> Thats a croc. If that was done, it was the exception, that was snuck 
>> under
>> the radar and done against the rules. And could be easilly protested by
>> the
>> DSL service providers previously in existence serving the area.  Not that
>> I
>> would protest a WISP winning money.
>>
>> Chuck,
>> Are you sure you aren't talking about RUS loans? Its much easier getting
>> RUS
>> loans. The Community Connect grant program was very specific on its 
>> rules.
>> One loop holes was, if you found one area that met the qualification, you
>> could use the funds to build your backhaul through served areas. The RUS
>> money couldn't be used for the end user deployments in that area, but so
>> what, a WISP could afford that, once they got a grant to pay for the
>> Backhaul and towers.
>>
>> The RUS grant wasn't really designed for a WISP's typical model. It was
>> more
>> designed to build the "community center" and the staff to run it, and
>> teach
>> the community, more than it was to bring broadband to the homes
>> themselves.
>>
>> Tom DeReggi
>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Chuck McCown - 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 11:28 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>>
>>
>>>I can show you towns that have DSL where the RUS gave a local WISP a very
>>> nice grant to put in service.
>>> The RUS is even loaning companies to compete with RBOCs.
>>> - Original Message - 
>>> From: "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
>>> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 10:13 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>>>
>>>
>>>> The RUS programs I checked into are for towns with no broadband. The
>>>> local
>>>> Rural Co-op telco has at least a few DSL modems in every town in the
>>>> county.
>>>> Guess where they got the money for the towns with a "few." Yup,  you 
>>>> got
>>>> it.
>>>> I was also told that the USDA will not loan or grant you money if you
>>>> are
>>>> going to be in direct competition with someone thay have already 
>>>> granted
>>>> or
>>>> loaned money too, I do not know how much truth there is to this.
>>>>
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>>> Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
>>>> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 1:44 PM
>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The RUS grant program is ideal
>>>>> for guys li

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Chuck McCown - 2]

BTW, the WISPs did in fact have to build the community center, and staff it, 
and do classes etc.  Big pain in my opinion.  So in the cases I know of (I 
am the upstream provider for a couple of these) they did do all they were 
supposed to do.
I will have to argue the point the loans are easier to get the grants.  It 
typically takes me 3 years to get a new loan for a new ILEC that has never 
borrowed before.  I have seen the WISP grants go through in 6 months or 
less.  Huge difference. I know for a fact that one WISP (nationwide outfit 
the filed for everything on the map) lied about the areas being underserved 
or unserved.  They filed on areas we actually serve as a WISP.  We took the 
RUS field rep around and proved to him that not only was there DSL in the 
area but a WISP too.  Not alot of due diligence was done by the RUS in these 
cases.
- Original Message - 
From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 3:00 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


> Thats a croc. If that was done, it was the exception, that was snuck under
> the radar and done against the rules. And could be easilly protested by 
> the
> DSL service providers previously in existence serving the area.  Not that 
> I
> would protest a WISP winning money.
>
> Chuck,
> Are you sure you aren't talking about RUS loans? Its much easier getting 
> RUS
> loans. The Community Connect grant program was very specific on its rules.
> One loop holes was, if you found one area that met the qualification, you
> could use the funds to build your backhaul through served areas. The RUS
> money couldn't be used for the end user deployments in that area, but so
> what, a WISP could afford that, once they got a grant to pay for the
> Backhaul and towers.
>
> The RUS grant wasn't really designed for a WISP's typical model. It was 
> more
> designed to build the "community center" and the staff to run it, and 
> teach
> the community, more than it was to bring broadband to the homes 
> themselves.
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message ----- 
> From: "Chuck McCown - 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 11:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>
>
>>I can show you towns that have DSL where the RUS gave a local WISP a very
>> nice grant to put in service.
>> The RUS is even loaning companies to compete with RBOCs.
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
>> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 10:13 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>>
>>
>>> The RUS programs I checked into are for towns with no broadband. The
>>> local
>>> Rural Co-op telco has at least a few DSL modems in every town in the
>>> county.
>>> Guess where they got the money for the towns with a "few." Yup,  you got
>>> it.
>>> I was also told that the USDA will not loan or grant you money if you 
>>> are
>>> going to be in direct competition with someone thay have already granted
>>> or
>>> loaned money too, I do not know how much truth there is to this.
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>> Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
>>> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 1:44 PM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>>>
>>>
>>>>The RUS grant program is ideal
>>>> for guys like you.
>>>
>>> Not really. The RUS grant programs were pretty much good for Indian
>>> tribes,
>>> based on the majority winners.
>>> You need close to 100% point award to get one, which means a township
>>> less
>>> than 500 people.
>>> With some exception of course.
>>>
>>> But from what I've seen, the RUS Loan program has been wonderful for 
>>> many
>>> Rural area providers that were already well financed with a good proven
>>> ability to repay, such as a local ILEC.
>>>
>>> Tom DeReggi
>>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message - 
>>> From: "Chuck McCown - 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List"

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Chuck McCown - 2]

Nope, not an exception at all.  Happened all over the west.  Grants handed 
out like crackerjack prizes.  First to file for an area was the first to get 
it irrespective of whether or not there was an ILEC or RBOC in the area 
serving. They have greatly slowed down due to some massive screw-up due to 
zero oversight.  The big project in the RBOC are was a loan, not a grant. 
But they have been breaking all the historic rules left and right.  Funny 
that some of the WISPs have snuck into an area with an RUS grant much to the 
chagrin of the ILEC that came by later and tried to file on the same are 
(that they serve).  One ILEC suggested that the WISP GIVE the grant to them. 
What a hoot.
- Original Message - 
From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 3:00 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


> Thats a croc. If that was done, it was the exception, that was snuck under
> the radar and done against the rules. And could be easilly protested by 
> the
> DSL service providers previously in existence serving the area.  Not that 
> I
> would protest a WISP winning money.
>
> Chuck,
> Are you sure you aren't talking about RUS loans? Its much easier getting 
> RUS
> loans. The Community Connect grant program was very specific on its rules.
> One loop holes was, if you found one area that met the qualification, you
> could use the funds to build your backhaul through served areas. The RUS
> money couldn't be used for the end user deployments in that area, but so
> what, a WISP could afford that, once they got a grant to pay for the
> Backhaul and towers.
>
> The RUS grant wasn't really designed for a WISP's typical model. It was 
> more
> designed to build the "community center" and the staff to run it, and 
> teach
> the community, more than it was to bring broadband to the homes 
> themselves.
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message ----- 
> From: "Chuck McCown - 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 11:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>
>
>>I can show you towns that have DSL where the RUS gave a local WISP a very
>> nice grant to put in service.
>> The RUS is even loaning companies to compete with RBOCs.
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
>> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 10:13 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>>
>>
>>> The RUS programs I checked into are for towns with no broadband. The
>>> local
>>> Rural Co-op telco has at least a few DSL modems in every town in the
>>> county.
>>> Guess where they got the money for the towns with a "few." Yup,  you got
>>> it.
>>> I was also told that the USDA will not loan or grant you money if you 
>>> are
>>> going to be in direct competition with someone thay have already granted
>>> or
>>> loaned money too, I do not know how much truth there is to this.
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>> Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
>>> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 1:44 PM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>>>
>>>
>>>>The RUS grant program is ideal
>>>> for guys like you.
>>>
>>> Not really. The RUS grant programs were pretty much good for Indian
>>> tribes,
>>> based on the majority winners.
>>> You need close to 100% point award to get one, which means a township
>>> less
>>> than 500 people.
>>> With some exception of course.
>>>
>>> But from what I've seen, the RUS Loan program has been wonderful for 
>>> many
>>> Rural area providers that were already well financed with a good proven
>>> ability to repay, such as a local ILEC.
>>>
>>> Tom DeReggi
>>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message - 
>>> From: "Chuck McCown - 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
>>> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 11:09 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>>>
>>>
>>>> Y

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Tom DeReggi]

Thats a croc. If that was done, it was the exception, that was snuck under 
the radar and done against the rules. And could be easilly protested by the 
DSL service providers previously in existence serving the area.  Not that I 
would protest a WISP winning money.

Chuck,
Are you sure you aren't talking about RUS loans? Its much easier getting RUS 
loans. The Community Connect grant program was very specific on its rules.
One loop holes was, if you found one area that met the qualification, you 
could use the funds to build your backhaul through served areas. The RUS 
money couldn't be used for the end user deployments in that area, but so 
what, a WISP could afford that, once they got a grant to pay for the 
Backhaul and towers.

The RUS grant wasn't really designed for a WISP's typical model. It was more 
designed to build the "community center" and the staff to run it, and teach 
the community, more than it was to bring broadband to the homes themselves.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck McCown - 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 11:28 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


>I can show you towns that have DSL where the RUS gave a local WISP a very
> nice grant to put in service.
> The RUS is even loaning companies to compete with RBOCs.
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 10:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>
>
>> The RUS programs I checked into are for towns with no broadband. The 
>> local
>> Rural Co-op telco has at least a few DSL modems in every town in the
>> county.
>> Guess where they got the money for the towns with a "few." Yup,  you got
>> it.
>> I was also told that the USDA will not loan or grant you money if you are
>> going to be in direct competition with someone thay have already granted
>> or
>> loaned money too, I do not know how much truth there is to this.
>>
>> Scott
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
>> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 1:44 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>>
>>
>>>The RUS grant program is ideal
>>> for guys like you.
>>
>> Not really. The RUS grant programs were pretty much good for Indian
>> tribes,
>> based on the majority winners.
>> You need close to 100% point award to get one, which means a township 
>> less
>> than 500 people.
>> With some exception of course.
>>
>> But from what I've seen, the RUS Loan program has been wonderful for many
>> Rural area providers that were already well financed with a good proven
>> ability to repay, such as a local ILEC.
>>
>> Tom DeReggi
>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Chuck McCown - 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 11:09 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>>
>>
>>> You really should get to be govt funded too.  The RUS grant program is
>>> ideal
>>> for guys like you.
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 10:06 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>>>
>>>
>>>> My nearest town(and most populated) that I serve has a population of
>>>> 1600 in TN. And that is a town, not a little subdivision, and the
>>>> local co-op telco is missing some of that providing the service
>>>> beyond dialup along with us. I will mark my calender, and bet you (if
>>>> the FCC does not change their ways with giving the rural co-ops
>>>> everything they ask for, and I have already been in this discussion
>>>> with Chuck, we never had even ISDN until 2003 or so) that you have
>>>> FIOS probably 5 years before we do. Just because, they give the more
>>>> populated "rural areas" the money b4 they do the less populated. Hum,
>>>> does that follow their strategy? Not wanting to start a war
>>>> herewe cover the places the gov&#

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Tom DeReggi]

Well, my targeted area for RUS, was disqualified the first year because it 
was a CDA instead of a Township. So we got the rules changed. Second year, 
when Verizon heard what we were up to, they decided to selectively deploy 
Broadband to like 3 people, to disqualify our area, again.
Its really tough finding areas, that are off of the RBOC's radar. (Unless 
you are already the ILEC for your area)
I'm not dissing the program though. They definately stayed true to their 
goal to give to the most rural, and the winners benefitted greatly.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 11:13 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


> The RUS programs I checked into are for towns with no broadband. The local
> Rural Co-op telco has at least a few DSL modems in every town in the 
> county.
> Guess where they got the money for the towns with a "few." Yup,  you got 
> it.
> I was also told that the USDA will not loan or grant you money if you are
> going to be in direct competition with someone thay have already granted 
> or
> loaned money too, I do not know how much truth there is to this.
>
> Scott
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 1:44 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>
>
>>The RUS grant program is ideal
>> for guys like you.
>
> Not really. The RUS grant programs were pretty much good for Indian 
> tribes,
> based on the majority winners.
> You need close to 100% point award to get one, which means a township less
> than 500 people.
> With some exception of course.
>
> But from what I've seen, the RUS Loan program has been wonderful for many
> Rural area providers that were already well financed with a good proven
> ability to repay, such as a local ILEC.
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> ----- Original Message - 
> From: "Chuck McCown - 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 11:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>
>
>> You really should get to be govt funded too.  The RUS grant program is
>> ideal
>> for guys like you.
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 10:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>>
>>
>>> My nearest town(and most populated) that I serve has a population of
>>> 1600 in TN. And that is a town, not a little subdivision, and the
>>> local co-op telco is missing some of that providing the service
>>> beyond dialup along with us. I will mark my calender, and bet you (if
>>> the FCC does not change their ways with giving the rural co-ops
>>> everything they ask for, and I have already been in this discussion
>>> with Chuck, we never had even ISDN until 2003 or so) that you have
>>> FIOS probably 5 years before we do. Just because, they give the more
>>> populated "rural areas" the money b4 they do the less populated. Hum,
>>> does that follow their strategy? Not wanting to start a war
>>> herewe cover the places the gov't funded co-ops, do NOT. Where is
>>> OUR money for the area's we cover that the co-op does not? Not
>>> wanting a politcal war here eitherjust thinking the current
>>> "State of War" is far sided from the FCC point of view that the
>>> already regulated telcos and cable co's are more than enough
>>> competition. They very seldom consider WISP as competition and I
>>> invite anyone to provide evidence that they REALLY do!
>>>
>>> Scott
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From: Bryan Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
>>> Date:  Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:37:46 -0600
>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Jun 20, 2008, at 8:23 PM, Scottie Arnett wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I am probably way more rural than Tom DeReggi on this, and I could
>>>>> not agree with him more plus add to it as far as the so called
>>>>> gov't push to get broadband to the "real rural markets." I think
>>

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Chuck McCown - 2]

I can show you towns that have DSL where the RUS gave a local WISP a very 
nice grant to put in service.
The RUS is even loaning companies to compete with RBOCs.
- Original Message - 
From: "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


> The RUS programs I checked into are for towns with no broadband. The local
> Rural Co-op telco has at least a few DSL modems in every town in the 
> county.
> Guess where they got the money for the towns with a "few." Yup,  you got 
> it.
> I was also told that the USDA will not loan or grant you money if you are
> going to be in direct competition with someone thay have already granted 
> or
> loaned money too, I do not know how much truth there is to this.
>
> Scott
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 1:44 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>
>
>>The RUS grant program is ideal
>> for guys like you.
>
> Not really. The RUS grant programs were pretty much good for Indian 
> tribes,
> based on the majority winners.
> You need close to 100% point award to get one, which means a township less
> than 500 people.
> With some exception of course.
>
> But from what I've seen, the RUS Loan program has been wonderful for many
> Rural area providers that were already well financed with a good proven
> ability to repay, such as a local ILEC.
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message ----- 
> From: "Chuck McCown - 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 11:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>
>
>> You really should get to be govt funded too.  The RUS grant program is
>> ideal
>> for guys like you.
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 10:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>>
>>
>>> My nearest town(and most populated) that I serve has a population of
>>> 1600 in TN. And that is a town, not a little subdivision, and the
>>> local co-op telco is missing some of that providing the service
>>> beyond dialup along with us. I will mark my calender, and bet you (if
>>> the FCC does not change their ways with giving the rural co-ops
>>> everything they ask for, and I have already been in this discussion
>>> with Chuck, we never had even ISDN until 2003 or so) that you have
>>> FIOS probably 5 years before we do. Just because, they give the more
>>> populated "rural areas" the money b4 they do the less populated. Hum,
>>> does that follow their strategy? Not wanting to start a war
>>> herewe cover the places the gov't funded co-ops, do NOT. Where is
>>> OUR money for the area's we cover that the co-op does not? Not
>>> wanting a politcal war here eitherjust thinking the current
>>> "State of War" is far sided from the FCC point of view that the
>>> already regulated telcos and cable co's are more than enough
>>> competition. They very seldom consider WISP as competition and I
>>> invite anyone to provide evidence that they REALLY do!
>>>
>>> Scott
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From: Bryan Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
>>> Date:  Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:37:46 -0600
>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Jun 20, 2008, at 8:23 PM, Scottie Arnett wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I am probably way more rural than Tom DeReggi on this, and I could
>>>>> not agree with him more plus add to it as far as the so called
>>>>> gov't push to get broadband to the "real rural markets." I think
>>>>> their "push" is more of a "ghost" as far as the FCC has ruled in
>>>>> the last 6 to 8 years. Just IMHO.
>>>>
>>>>There are some farmers along the Utah/Nevada border that are going to
>>>>have fiber to the home before I ever will...
>>>>
>>>>-- Bryan
>>>>

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Scottie Arnett]

The RUS programs I checked into are for towns with no broadband. The local
Rural Co-op telco has at least a few DSL modems in every town in the county.
Guess where they got the money for the towns with a "few." Yup,  you got it.
I was also told that the USDA will not loan or grant you money if you are
going to be in direct competition with someone thay have already granted or
loaned money too, I do not know how much truth there is to this.

Scott

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 1:44 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


>The RUS grant program is ideal
> for guys like you.

Not really. The RUS grant programs were pretty much good for Indian tribes, 
based on the majority winners.
You need close to 100% point award to get one, which means a township less 
than 500 people.
With some exception of course.

But from what I've seen, the RUS Loan program has been wonderful for many 
Rural area providers that were already well financed with a good proven 
ability to repay, such as a local ILEC.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck McCown - 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


> You really should get to be govt funded too.  The RUS grant program is
> ideal
> for guys like you.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 10:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>
>
>> My nearest town(and most populated) that I serve has a population of 
>> 1600 in TN. And that is a town, not a little subdivision, and the 
>> local co-op telco is missing some of that providing the service 
>> beyond dialup along with us. I will mark my calender, and bet you (if 
>> the FCC does not change their ways with giving the rural co-ops 
>> everything they ask for, and I have already been in this discussion 
>> with Chuck, we never had even ISDN until 2003 or so) that you have 
>> FIOS probably 5 years before we do. Just because, they give the more 
>> populated "rural areas" the money b4 they do the less populated. Hum, 
>> does that follow their strategy? Not wanting to start a war 
>> herewe cover the places the gov't funded co-ops, do NOT. Where is 
>> OUR money for the area's we cover that the co-op does not? Not 
>> wanting a politcal war here eitherjust thinking the current 
>> "State of War" is far sided from the FCC point of view that the 
>> already regulated telcos and cable co's are more than enough 
>> competition. They very seldom consider WISP as competition and I 
>> invite anyone to provide evidence that they REALLY do!
>>
>> Scott
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: Bryan Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
>> Date:  Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:37:46 -0600
>>
>>>
>>>On Jun 20, 2008, at 8:23 PM, Scottie Arnett wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am probably way more rural than Tom DeReggi on this, and I could 
>>>> not agree with him more plus add to it as far as the so called 
>>>> gov't push to get broadband to the "real rural markets." I think 
>>>> their "push" is more of a "ghost" as far as the FCC has ruled in 
>>>> the last 6 to 8 years. Just IMHO.
>>>
>>>There are some farmers along the Utah/Nevada border that are going to 
>>>have fiber to the home before I ever will...
>>>
>>>-- Bryan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>-
>>>---
>>>WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>>http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>-
---
>>>
>>>WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>>Subscribe/Unsubscribe: 
>>>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>>Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>---
>>>[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth. 
>> Check out www.info-ed.com for information.
>>
>>
>> 

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Chuck McCown - 2]

I have grant projects in the area I serve and they were handing out money to 
almost anyone that applied with practically zero oversight.  This is in 
areas from 30 customers to one area serving close to a million customers.

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


> >The RUS grant program is ideal
>> for guys like you.
>
> Not really. The RUS grant programs were pretty much good for Indian 
> tribes,
> based on the majority winners.
> You need close to 100% point award to get one, which means a township less
> than 500 people.
> With some exception of course.
>
> But from what I've seen, the RUS Loan program has been wonderful for many
> Rural area providers that were already well financed with a good proven
> ability to repay, such as a local ILEC.
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Chuck McCown - 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 11:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>
>
>> You really should get to be govt funded too.  The RUS grant program is
>> ideal
>> for guys like you.
>>
>> ----- Original Message - 
>> From: "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 10:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>>
>>
>>> My nearest town(and most populated) that I serve has a population of 
>>> 1600
>>> in TN. And that is a town, not a little subdivision, and the local co-op
>>> telco is missing some of that providing the service beyond dialup along
>>> with us. I will mark my calender, and bet you (if the FCC does not 
>>> change
>>> their ways with giving the rural co-ops everything they ask for, and I
>>> have already been in this discussion with Chuck, we never had even ISDN
>>> until 2003 or so) that you have FIOS probably 5 years before we do. Just
>>> because, they give the more populated "rural areas" the money b4 they do
>>> the less populated. Hum, does that follow their strategy?
>>> Not wanting to start a war herewe cover the places the gov't funded
>>> co-ops, do NOT. Where is OUR money for the area's we cover that the 
>>> co-op
>>> does not? Not wanting a politcal war here eitherjust thinking the
>>> current "State of War" is far sided from the FCC point of view that the
>>> already regulated telcos and cable co's are more than enough 
>>> competition.
>>> They very seldom consider WISP as competition and I invite anyone to
>>> provide evidence that they REALLY do!
>>>
>>> Scott
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From: Bryan Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
>>> Date:  Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:37:46 -0600
>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Jun 20, 2008, at 8:23 PM, Scottie Arnett wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I am probably way more rural than Tom DeReggi on this, and I could
>>>>> not agree with him more plus add to it as far as the so called gov't
>>>>> push to get broadband to the "real rural markets." I think their
>>>>> "push" is more of a "ghost" as far as the FCC has ruled in the last
>>>>> 6 to 8 years. Just IMHO.
>>>>
>>>>There are some farmers along the Utah/Nevada border that are going to
>>>>have fiber to the home before I ever will...
>>>>
>>>>-- Bryan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>>>http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>>
>>>>Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>>>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>>
>>>>Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>>---
>>>>[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Dia

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Tom DeReggi]

>The RUS grant program is ideal
> for guys like you.

Not really. The RUS grant programs were pretty much good for Indian tribes, 
based on the majority winners.
You need close to 100% point award to get one, which means a township less 
than 500 people.
With some exception of course.

But from what I've seen, the RUS Loan program has been wonderful for many 
Rural area providers that were already well financed with a good proven 
ability to repay, such as a local ILEC.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck McCown - 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


> You really should get to be govt funded too.  The RUS grant program is 
> ideal
> for guys like you.
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 10:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>
>
>> My nearest town(and most populated) that I serve has a population of 1600
>> in TN. And that is a town, not a little subdivision, and the local co-op
>> telco is missing some of that providing the service beyond dialup along
>> with us. I will mark my calender, and bet you (if the FCC does not change
>> their ways with giving the rural co-ops everything they ask for, and I
>> have already been in this discussion with Chuck, we never had even ISDN
>> until 2003 or so) that you have FIOS probably 5 years before we do. Just
>> because, they give the more populated "rural areas" the money b4 they do
>> the less populated. Hum, does that follow their strategy?
>> Not wanting to start a war herewe cover the places the gov't funded
>> co-ops, do NOT. Where is OUR money for the area's we cover that the co-op
>> does not? Not wanting a politcal war here eitherjust thinking the
>> current "State of War" is far sided from the FCC point of view that the
>> already regulated telcos and cable co's are more than enough competition.
>> They very seldom consider WISP as competition and I invite anyone to
>> provide evidence that they REALLY do!
>>
>> Scott
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: Bryan Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
>> Date:  Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:37:46 -0600
>>
>>>
>>>On Jun 20, 2008, at 8:23 PM, Scottie Arnett wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am probably way more rural than Tom DeReggi on this, and I could
>>>> not agree with him more plus add to it as far as the so called gov't
>>>> push to get broadband to the "real rural markets." I think their
>>>> "push" is more of a "ghost" as far as the FCC has ruled in the last
>>>> 6 to 8 years. Just IMHO.
>>>
>>>There are some farmers along the Utah/Nevada border that are going to
>>>have fiber to the home before I ever will...
>>>
>>>-- Bryan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>>http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>
>>>
>>>WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>>Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>>Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>---
>>>[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth.
>> Check out www.info-ed.com for information.
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Tom DeReggi]

The problem I have with politics and broadband is its to easy for the 
Government to be scammed on the deal.
Politics is often about giving something up, in exchange for something more 
valuable in return (from that user's perspective), or that can be spun to be 
of more value. Even if some get squashed in the name of the greater good. 
The problem is that it is clear what is being given up, but it is not always 
clear what is getting received in return.  The reason being, the legislators 
are not always educated well enough on the technical details to understand 
what is viably possible to execute.

 a perfect example is
http://rcrnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080620/FREE/842439156/1007

Where the cause may be noble, the intent to increase free broadband to 
consumers, but where in actuality, the plan would result in the opposite and 
actually harm wireless providers, and reduce consumer's broadband choice, 
and strengthen the chance that the internet will be controlled by a few.

In the above case, suggesting a nationwide license in 2155, auctioning off 
to the highest bidder that gives 25% of the spectrum to free broadband, and 
must make available to 95% of american within 10 years. The Hope- Trading 
free boardband to more consumers (the greater good), in exchange for giving 
up competition.

The obvious reasons this is bad...

1) Auctioning on an exclusive national level, will guarantee small providers 
won't ever have any spectrum licenses. (giving up something)
2) Requiring 95% build out, will guarantee a small provider will never be 
able to fund it. (giving up something)
3) Requiring 95% coverage, something that will never be technically 
possible, and something that will never be able to be enforced, as enforcing 
it would result in harming those that were served.  (The scam)
4) Requiring 95% tile and 25% to free subscribers, again something that 
won't fly, as there is no motive to support the free subscribers adequately, 
after all is said and done, and the FCC would never get away with aking the 
spectrum back after the fact, resulting in shutting down the 75% that were 
served, at least not for a very long transition period. (the scam)
5) By creating a system that requires FREE broadband to 95% of America, now 
creates competition for the small wireless provider that is already 
struggling to serve markets that are barely financially viable to serve 
based on their rurality.   I wouldn't be surprised if the winners would only 
supply the free broadband to locations where their are other  known WISP 
competition.

Its just another example of a plan, where a legislator has no problem giving 
away the public's spectrum, asking for broadband to be controlled by a few, 
and make it more difficult for small competior providers, instead of getting 
the 7000 existing ISPs, more usable spectrum to share.

This is why the "end of the Internet" discussion is so important. Every time 
we blink an eye, someone is trying to hijack it, and give another mechanism 
of accessing it to a single entity.

I bet if you asked any existing WISP, we'd probably all agree to give 25% of 
the services for Free, if we were given an exclusive licensed band for PtMP 
technology. Giving a percentage of free services is not the problem. The 
problem is who legislators thinks should be given an opportunity to do the 
giving.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


> My nearest town(and most populated) that I serve has a population of 1600 
> in TN. And that is a town, not a little subdivision, and the local co-op 
> telco is missing some of that providing the service beyond dialup along 
> with us. I will mark my calender, and bet you (if the FCC does not change 
> their ways with giving the rural co-ops everything they ask for, and I 
> have already been in this discussion with Chuck, we never had even ISDN 
> until 2003 or so) that you have FIOS probably 5 years before we do. Just 
> because, they give the more populated "rural areas" the money b4 they do 
> the less populated. Hum, does that follow their strategy?
> Not wanting to start a war herewe cover the places the gov't funded 
> co-ops, do NOT. Where is OUR money for the area's we cover that the co-op 
> does not? Not wanting a politcal war here eitherjust thinking the 
> current "State of War" is far sided from the FCC point of view that the 
> already regulated telcos and cable co's are more than enough competition. 
> They very seldom consider WISP as competition and I invite anyone to 
> provide evidence that they REALLY do!
>
> Scott
> 

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Mike Hammett]

The Internet is more than just the US.  Oversees, the RBOCs are just another 
network with good US capacity.  Flag, PCCW, NTT, DT, FT, Telia, etc. are no 
more tied to AT&T than to Level(3).  The MSO's purchase a lot of capacity 
from the non-RBOC networks.

IMHO, the RBOCs will only be able to exert this type of control over their 
own customers.  There will always be alternatives.


--
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


> >The RBOCs really don't have any superior standing
>> or abilities if you can get to alternate upstream providers.
>
> I think we can get confused on Consumers versus ISPs.
>
> ISPs can get to XOs and LEvel3s. But ISPs can't get to consumers.
> Consumers can't get to XOs and Level3s.
> Daily, more incentives are given to allow the big players to have more
> market share.
> The problem occurs once they get majority market share.
>
> What makes you think the content battle won't occur between RBOCs/CABLE 
> COs
> and the level3 / XOs getting blocked.
> The XOs and LEvel3s might not be large enough either.
> As soon as the monopolies have all teh consumers, and block third party
> content on on third party networks, the capacity on third party networks
> will become worthless. And then content providers will start going to the
> monoplies also.
> Its not going to happen overnight.
>
> However, the whole point on the protesting is that we are not going to let
> it happen. We want to make sure people support third party ISPs and fight
> legislation that does not protect third party ISPs, so that this whole 
> topic
> will be a mute point.
>
> We don't want to be the frog. We are smarter. And there is no reason to 
> jump
> out of the water, when we can just turn off the heat.
>
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> ----- Original Message - 
> From: "Chuck McCown - 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 2:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>
>
>> My posting was more along the lines of informational and sensitizing 
>> folks
>> to focusing their angst toward the appropriate parties.  But even if the
>> RBOCs are truly the death stars of our universe, I still do not 
>> understand
>> why folks do not simply bypass them and go directly to the XOs and 
>> Sprints
>> and Level3s of the world.  The RBOCs really don't have any superior
>> standing
>> or abilities if you can get to alternate upstream providers.  I really
>> think
>> the blocking argument is a non issue.
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "John Scrivner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 10:27 AM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>>
>>
>>> The term to better describe the people who are feared is the term
>>> "RBOC", not the "ILEC". I consider you and other smaller ILECs who are
>>> WISPs to be sharing many common concerns with the rest of us. I try to
>>> draw attention to the fact that RBOCs are generally the ones who are
>>> using the bully tactics to overpower all the smaller interests in
>>> broadband. I think it is a good idea for us to remember this when we
>>> are making generalizations about the telco giants out there who could
>>> squash our interests easily. I am certain nobody was intentionally
>>> referring to you or your ILEC Chuck.
>>> Scriv
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Chuck McCown - 2 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Hold on there.  I am an incumbent as in the "I" in ILEC.  I have fiber
>>>> directly to Level 3, XO and the option of hitting all the rest.  If
>>>> there
>>>> is
>>>> such a thing as "the pipe" I wish someone would point it out to me. 
>>>> We
>>>> don't control anything.  If you are a wholesale customer, you are
>>>> essentially directly connected to those two upstream providers.  Who 
>>>> are
>>>> these incumbents and where is that pipe?
>>>> - Original Message -
>>>> From: "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> To: "WISPA General

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Chuck McCown - 2]

You really should get to be govt funded too.  The RUS grant program is ideal 
for guys like you.

- Original Message - 
From: "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 10:06 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


> My nearest town(and most populated) that I serve has a population of 1600 
> in TN. And that is a town, not a little subdivision, and the local co-op 
> telco is missing some of that providing the service beyond dialup along 
> with us. I will mark my calender, and bet you (if the FCC does not change 
> their ways with giving the rural co-ops everything they ask for, and I 
> have already been in this discussion with Chuck, we never had even ISDN 
> until 2003 or so) that you have FIOS probably 5 years before we do. Just 
> because, they give the more populated "rural areas" the money b4 they do 
> the less populated. Hum, does that follow their strategy?
> Not wanting to start a war herewe cover the places the gov't funded 
> co-ops, do NOT. Where is OUR money for the area's we cover that the co-op 
> does not? Not wanting a politcal war here eitherjust thinking the 
> current "State of War" is far sided from the FCC point of view that the 
> already regulated telcos and cable co's are more than enough competition. 
> They very seldom consider WISP as competition and I invite anyone to 
> provide evidence that they REALLY do!
>
> Scott
> -- Original Message --
> From: Bryan Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
> Date:  Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:37:46 -0600
>
>>
>>On Jun 20, 2008, at 8:23 PM, Scottie Arnett wrote:
>>
>>> I am probably way more rural than Tom DeReggi on this, and I could
>>> not agree with him more plus add to it as far as the so called gov't
>>> push to get broadband to the "real rural markets." I think their
>>> "push" is more of a "ghost" as far as the FCC has ruled in the last
>>> 6 to 8 years. Just IMHO.
>>
>>There are some farmers along the Utah/Nevada border that are going to
>>have fiber to the home before I ever will...
>>
>>-- Bryan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>http://signup.wispa.org/
>>
>>
>>WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>>Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>>Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>---
>>[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>>
>>
>
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> Check out www.info-ed.com for information.
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> 
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Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Chuck McCown - 2]

More populated?
Check out Grouse Creek, Utah.  That is one of the towns that Bryan is 
talking about.
Population about 75 people.  And it will be GPON, not FIOS.  Much better.
- Original Message - 
From: "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 10:06 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


> My nearest town(and most populated) that I serve has a population of 1600 
> in TN. And that is a town, not a little subdivision, and the local co-op 
> telco is missing some of that providing the service beyond dialup along 
> with us. I will mark my calender, and bet you (if the FCC does not change 
> their ways with giving the rural co-ops everything they ask for, and I 
> have already been in this discussion with Chuck, we never had even ISDN 
> until 2003 or so) that you have FIOS probably 5 years before we do. Just 
> because, they give the more populated "rural areas" the money b4 they do 
> the less populated. Hum, does that follow their strategy?
> Not wanting to start a war herewe cover the places the gov't funded 
> co-ops, do NOT. Where is OUR money for the area's we cover that the co-op 
> does not? Not wanting a politcal war here eitherjust thinking the 
> current "State of War" is far sided from the FCC point of view that the 
> already regulated telcos and cable co's are more than enough competition. 
> They very seldom consider WISP as competition and I invite anyone to 
> provide evidence that they REALLY do!
>
> Scott
> -- Original Message --
> From: Bryan Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: WISPA General List 
> Date:  Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:37:46 -0600
>
>>
>>On Jun 20, 2008, at 8:23 PM, Scottie Arnett wrote:
>>
>>> I am probably way more rural than Tom DeReggi on this, and I could
>>> not agree with him more plus add to it as far as the so called gov't
>>> push to get broadband to the "real rural markets." I think their
>>> "push" is more of a "ghost" as far as the FCC has ruled in the last
>>> 6 to 8 years. Just IMHO.
>>
>>There are some farmers along the Utah/Nevada border that are going to
>>have fiber to the home before I ever will...
>>
>>-- Bryan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>http://signup.wispa.org/
>>
>>
>>WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>>Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>>Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>---
>>[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>>
>>
>
> Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth.
> Check out www.info-ed.com for information.
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 




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Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Scottie Arnett]

My nearest town(and most populated) that I serve has a population of 1600 in 
TN. And that is a town, not a little subdivision, and the local co-op telco is 
missing some of that providing the service beyond dialup along with us. I will 
mark my calender, and bet you (if the FCC does not change their ways with 
giving the rural co-ops everything they ask for, and I have already been in 
this discussion with Chuck, we never had even ISDN until 2003 or so) that you 
have FIOS probably 5 years before we do. Just because, they give the more 
populated "rural areas" the money b4 they do the less populated. Hum, does that 
follow their strategy?
Not wanting to start a war herewe cover the places the gov't funded co-ops, 
do NOT. Where is OUR money for the area's we cover that the co-op does not? Not 
wanting a politcal war here eitherjust thinking the current "State of War" 
is far sided from the FCC point of view that the already regulated telcos and 
cable co's are more than enough competition. They very seldom consider WISP as 
competition and I invite anyone to provide evidence that they REALLY do!

Scott
-- Original Message --
From: Bryan Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: WISPA General List 
Date:  Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:37:46 -0600

>
>On Jun 20, 2008, at 8:23 PM, Scottie Arnett wrote:
>
>> I am probably way more rural than Tom DeReggi on this, and I could  
>> not agree with him more plus add to it as far as the so called gov't  
>> push to get broadband to the "real rural markets." I think their  
>> "push" is more of a "ghost" as far as the FCC has ruled in the last  
>> 6 to 8 years. Just IMHO.
>
>There are some farmers along the Utah/Nevada border that are going to  
>have fiber to the home before I ever will...
>
>-- Bryan
>
>
>
>
>WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
>Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
>Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>---
>[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
>
>

Dial-Up Internet service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $9.99/mth.
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Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Bryan Scott]

On Jun 20, 2008, at 8:23 PM, Scottie Arnett wrote:

> I am probably way more rural than Tom DeReggi on this, and I could  
> not agree with him more plus add to it as far as the so called gov't  
> push to get broadband to the "real rural markets." I think their  
> "push" is more of a "ghost" as far as the FCC has ruled in the last  
> 6 to 8 years. Just IMHO.

There are some farmers along the Utah/Nevada border that are going to  
have fiber to the home before I ever will...

-- Bryan




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Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Scottie Arnett]

I am probably way more rural than Tom DeReggi on this, and I could not agree 
with him more plus add to it as far as the so called gov't push to get 
broadband to the "real rural markets." I think their "push" is more of a 
"ghost" as far as the FCC has ruled in the last 6 to 8 years. Just IMHO.

Scott

-- Original Message --
From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: WISPA General List 
Date:  Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:10:58 -0500

>>The RBOCs really don't have any superior standing
>> or abilities if you can get to alternate upstream providers.
>
>I think we can get confused on Consumers versus ISPs.
>
>ISPs can get to XOs and LEvel3s. But ISPs can't get to consumers.
>Consumers can't get to XOs and Level3s.
>Daily, more incentives are given to allow the big players to have more 
>market share.
>The problem occurs once they get majority market share.
>
>What makes you think the content battle won't occur between RBOCs/CABLE COs 
>and the level3 / XOs getting blocked.
>The XOs and LEvel3s might not be large enough either.
>As soon as the monopolies have all teh consumers, and block third party 
>content on on third party networks, the capacity on third party networks 
>will become worthless. And then content providers will start going to the 
>monoplies also.
>Its not going to happen overnight.
>
>However, the whole point on the protesting is that we are not going to let 
>it happen. We want to make sure people support third party ISPs and fight 
>legislation that does not protect third party ISPs, so that this whole topic 
>will be a mute point.
>
>We don't want to be the frog. We are smarter. And there is no reason to jump 
>out of the water, when we can just turn off the heat.
>
>
>Tom DeReggi
>RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
>- Original Message - 
>From: "Chuck McCown - 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "WISPA General List" 
>Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 2:16 PM
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>
>
>> My posting was more along the lines of informational and sensitizing folks
>> to focusing their angst toward the appropriate parties.  But even if the
>> RBOCs are truly the death stars of our universe, I still do not understand
>> why folks do not simply bypass them and go directly to the XOs and Sprints
>> and Level3s of the world.  The RBOCs really don't have any superior 
>> standing
>> or abilities if you can get to alternate upstream providers.  I really 
>> think
>> the blocking argument is a non issue.
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "John Scrivner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 10:27 AM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>>
>>
>>> The term to better describe the people who are feared is the term
>>> "RBOC", not the "ILEC". I consider you and other smaller ILECs who are
>>> WISPs to be sharing many common concerns with the rest of us. I try to
>>> draw attention to the fact that RBOCs are generally the ones who are
>>> using the bully tactics to overpower all the smaller interests in
>>> broadband. I think it is a good idea for us to remember this when we
>>> are making generalizations about the telco giants out there who could
>>> squash our interests easily. I am certain nobody was intentionally
>>> referring to you or your ILEC Chuck.
>>> Scriv
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Chuck McCown - 2 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Hold on there.  I am an incumbent as in the "I" in ILEC.  I have fiber
>>>> directly to Level 3, XO and the option of hitting all the rest.  If 
>>>> there
>>>> is
>>>> such a thing as "the pipe" I wish someone would point it out to me.   We
>>>> don't control anything.  If you are a wholesale customer, you are
>>>> essentially directly connected to those two upstream providers.  Who are
>>>> these incumbents and where is that pipe?
>>>> - Original Message -
>>>> From: "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 12:42 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Sadly, I have to agree. The incumbents want to own the "pipe" so

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Tom DeReggi]

>The RBOCs really don't have any superior standing
> or abilities if you can get to alternate upstream providers.

I think we can get confused on Consumers versus ISPs.

ISPs can get to XOs and LEvel3s. But ISPs can't get to consumers.
Consumers can't get to XOs and Level3s.
Daily, more incentives are given to allow the big players to have more 
market share.
The problem occurs once they get majority market share.

What makes you think the content battle won't occur between RBOCs/CABLE COs 
and the level3 / XOs getting blocked.
The XOs and LEvel3s might not be large enough either.
As soon as the monopolies have all teh consumers, and block third party 
content on on third party networks, the capacity on third party networks 
will become worthless. And then content providers will start going to the 
monoplies also.
Its not going to happen overnight.

However, the whole point on the protesting is that we are not going to let 
it happen. We want to make sure people support third party ISPs and fight 
legislation that does not protect third party ISPs, so that this whole topic 
will be a mute point.

We don't want to be the frog. We are smarter. And there is no reason to jump 
out of the water, when we can just turn off the heat.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck McCown - 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


> My posting was more along the lines of informational and sensitizing folks
> to focusing their angst toward the appropriate parties.  But even if the
> RBOCs are truly the death stars of our universe, I still do not understand
> why folks do not simply bypass them and go directly to the XOs and Sprints
> and Level3s of the world.  The RBOCs really don't have any superior 
> standing
> or abilities if you can get to alternate upstream providers.  I really 
> think
> the blocking argument is a non issue.
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "John Scrivner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 10:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>
>
>> The term to better describe the people who are feared is the term
>> "RBOC", not the "ILEC". I consider you and other smaller ILECs who are
>> WISPs to be sharing many common concerns with the rest of us. I try to
>> draw attention to the fact that RBOCs are generally the ones who are
>> using the bully tactics to overpower all the smaller interests in
>> broadband. I think it is a good idea for us to remember this when we
>> are making generalizations about the telco giants out there who could
>> squash our interests easily. I am certain nobody was intentionally
>> referring to you or your ILEC Chuck.
>> Scriv
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Chuck McCown - 2 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>> Hold on there.  I am an incumbent as in the "I" in ILEC.  I have fiber
>>> directly to Level 3, XO and the option of hitting all the rest.  If 
>>> there
>>> is
>>> such a thing as "the pipe" I wish someone would point it out to me.   We
>>> don't control anything.  If you are a wholesale customer, you are
>>> essentially directly connected to those two upstream providers.  Who are
>>> these incumbents and where is that pipe?
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 12:42 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>>>
>>>
>>>> Sadly, I have to agree. The incumbents want to own the "pipe" so that
>>>> they can control what goes over it and milk as much profit as possible
>>>> from their "pipe". Supposedly it's done to "benefit" the stockholder 
>>>> but
>>>> everyone else will be getting screwed. That's the way business is done
>>>> in this day and age. They can't take over the "pipe" all at once 
>>>> because
>>>> people would howl bloody murder so they take it away a little bit at a
>>>> time so people don't catch on until it's too late. For more 
>>>> perspective,
>>>> one might want to read about "How to boil a frog".
>>>> <http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.asp>
>>>>
>>>> jack
>>>>
>>>>

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Mike Hammett]

Agreed.  Verizon and AT&T (while having the largest networks in the world), 
aren't really any better than the others (Cogent, L3, Sprint, XO, AboveNet, 
GBLX, TWTC, etc.)


--
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck McCown - 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


> My posting was more along the lines of informational and sensitizing folks
> to focusing their angst toward the appropriate parties.  But even if the
> RBOCs are truly the death stars of our universe, I still do not understand
> why folks do not simply bypass them and go directly to the XOs and Sprints
> and Level3s of the world.  The RBOCs really don't have any superior 
> standing
> or abilities if you can get to alternate upstream providers.  I really 
> think
> the blocking argument is a non issue.
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "John Scrivner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 10:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>
>
>> The term to better describe the people who are feared is the term
>> "RBOC", not the "ILEC". I consider you and other smaller ILECs who are
>> WISPs to be sharing many common concerns with the rest of us. I try to
>> draw attention to the fact that RBOCs are generally the ones who are
>> using the bully tactics to overpower all the smaller interests in
>> broadband. I think it is a good idea for us to remember this when we
>> are making generalizations about the telco giants out there who could
>> squash our interests easily. I am certain nobody was intentionally
>> referring to you or your ILEC Chuck.
>> Scriv
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Chuck McCown - 2 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>> Hold on there.  I am an incumbent as in the "I" in ILEC.  I have fiber
>>> directly to Level 3, XO and the option of hitting all the rest.  If 
>>> there
>>> is
>>> such a thing as "the pipe" I wish someone would point it out to me.   We
>>> don't control anything.  If you are a wholesale customer, you are
>>> essentially directly connected to those two upstream providers.  Who are
>>> these incumbents and where is that pipe?
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 12:42 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>>>
>>>
>>>> Sadly, I have to agree. The incumbents want to own the "pipe" so that
>>>> they can control what goes over it and milk as much profit as possible
>>>> from their "pipe". Supposedly it's done to "benefit" the stockholder 
>>>> but
>>>> everyone else will be getting screwed. That's the way business is done
>>>> in this day and age. They can't take over the "pipe" all at once 
>>>> because
>>>> people would howl bloody murder so they take it away a little bit at a
>>>> time so people don't catch on until it's too late. For more 
>>>> perspective,
>>>> one might want to read about "How to boil a frog".
>>>> <http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.asp>
>>>>
>>>> jack
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tom DeReggi wrote:
>>>>> It can and will happen.  There have been plans to take over/Hijack 
>>>>> the
>>>>> Internet since day 1. Microsoft being one of the early entities that
>>>>> tried
>>>>> and failed to accomplish it, by purposely modifying standard protocols
>>>>> with
>>>>> microsoft standards to be integrated into the TCP Stack. Its happens
>>>>> already
>>>>> with Smart cell phone. Are developers really that stupid that that its
>>>>> taken
>>>>> them 10 years to get a cell ohone that will work on TCPIP, when 
>>>>> instead
>>>>> they
>>>>> try to sell proprietary portals to controlled content.  Look who is
>>>>> buying
>>>>> up the INternet? Cable companies! Same with Whitespaces, The
>>>>> Broadcasters
>>>>> are proposing to keep the spectrum, so they can be the next Wireless
>>>

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Tom DeReggi]

I agree, the proper term is "RBOC" not "ILEC". I as well often 
inappropriately use the term ILEC.

Actually, Ironically, I think most any company, including WISPs would try to 
immulate the tactics of the RBOC, if they had the power to.
I want to control my pipe, and my content if I can.  Is it hippicritical? 
No.  Because we "Can't".

The complaint arises when the "RBOC" level entity, has reached such mass 
scale that others would rarely be able to recreate similar scale, without 
the subsidee of the revenue from the in place percentage of the marketshare. 
Who can afford to buy a Country?  Not many.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck McCown - 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


> Hold on there.  I am an incumbent as in the "I" in ILEC.  I have fiber
> directly to Level 3, XO and the option of hitting all the rest.  If there 
> is
> such a thing as "the pipe" I wish someone would point it out to me.   We
> don't control anything.  If you are a wholesale customer, you are
> essentially directly connected to those two upstream providers.  Who are
> these incumbents and where is that pipe?
> - Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 12:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>
>
>> Sadly, I have to agree. The incumbents want to own the "pipe" so that
>> they can control what goes over it and milk as much profit as possible
>> from their "pipe". Supposedly it's done to "benefit" the stockholder but
>> everyone else will be getting screwed. That's the way business is done
>> in this day and age. They can't take over the "pipe" all at once because
>> people would howl bloody murder so they take it away a little bit at a
>> time so people don't catch on until it's too late. For more perspective,
>> one might want to read about "How to boil a frog".
>> <http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.asp>
>>
>> jack
>>
>>
>> Tom DeReggi wrote:
>>> It can and will happen.  There have been plans to take over/Hijack  the
>>> Internet since day 1. Microsoft being one of the early entities that
>>> tried
>>> and failed to accomplish it, by purposely modifying standard protocols
>>> with
>>> microsoft standards to be integrated into the TCP Stack. Its happens
>>> already
>>> with Smart cell phone. Are developers really that stupid that that its
>>> taken
>>> them 10 years to get a cell ohone that will work on TCPIP, when instead
>>> they
>>> try to sell proprietary portals to controlled content.  Look who is
>>> buying
>>> up the INternet? Cable companies! Same with Whitespaces, The 
>>> Broadcasters
>>> are proposing to keep the spectrum, so they can be the next Wireless
>>> provider. BUyers with years of history with the mentality charging for
>>> content, and packaging content based on the the most profitable offer.
>>>
>>> The only way to stop it is to enable competition. And the only way to
>>> keep
>>> it enabled is to subsidize it, to make sure it stays.
>>>
>>> Sure they can block all sites. They can steal your Email customers in
>>> about
>>> 2 weeks if they want to.  All they have to do is block your domain,
>>> pretending you are a spammer, and refuse to unblock you, and in two 
>>> weeks
>>> your Email customers will be gone.  They can do the same with your web
>>> content.  Who ever has the majorit market share of customer sites with
>>> limited options, will be in control.
>>>
>>> Anti-Trust protection is the failure of the regulators. Bundling will
>>> kill
>>> everyone else. Verizon is doing it now... Get a discount on your home
>>> broadband, if you buy their cell phone service.
>>> If Verizon has your cell phone business, they will get your broadband.
>>> AT&T
>>> had followed sute, or vice versa. Are you a cell phone provider? Will 
>>> you
>>> be
>>> able to compete?  Why do you think Comcast was interested in investing 
>>> in
>>> Clearwire?  Comcast isn't a cell phone carrier yet. They are at a
>>> disadvantage.  Verizon used to be at a disadvantage because they didn'

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Mike Hammett]

Many people incorrectly interchange RBOC and ILEC  though Qwest 
technically is an RBOC, they're a pawn as well.


--
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck McCown - 2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


> Hold on there.  I am an incumbent as in the "I" in ILEC.  I have fiber
> directly to Level 3, XO and the option of hitting all the rest.  If there 
> is
> such a thing as "the pipe" I wish someone would point it out to me.   We
> don't control anything.  If you are a wholesale customer, you are
> essentially directly connected to those two upstream providers.  Who are
> these incumbents and where is that pipe?
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 12:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>
>
>> Sadly, I have to agree. The incumbents want to own the "pipe" so that
>> they can control what goes over it and milk as much profit as possible
>> from their "pipe". Supposedly it's done to "benefit" the stockholder but
>> everyone else will be getting screwed. That's the way business is done
>> in this day and age. They can't take over the "pipe" all at once because
>> people would howl bloody murder so they take it away a little bit at a
>> time so people don't catch on until it's too late. For more perspective,
>> one might want to read about "How to boil a frog".
>> <http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.asp>
>>
>> jack
>>
>>
>> Tom DeReggi wrote:
>>> It can and will happen.  There have been plans to take over/Hijack  the
>>> Internet since day 1. Microsoft being one of the early entities that
>>> tried
>>> and failed to accomplish it, by purposely modifying standard protocols
>>> with
>>> microsoft standards to be integrated into the TCP Stack. Its happens
>>> already
>>> with Smart cell phone. Are developers really that stupid that that its
>>> taken
>>> them 10 years to get a cell ohone that will work on TCPIP, when instead
>>> they
>>> try to sell proprietary portals to controlled content.  Look who is
>>> buying
>>> up the INternet? Cable companies! Same with Whitespaces, The 
>>> Broadcasters
>>> are proposing to keep the spectrum, so they can be the next Wireless
>>> provider. BUyers with years of history with the mentality charging for
>>> content, and packaging content based on the the most profitable offer.
>>>
>>> The only way to stop it is to enable competition. And the only way to
>>> keep
>>> it enabled is to subsidize it, to make sure it stays.
>>>
>>> Sure they can block all sites. They can steal your Email customers in
>>> about
>>> 2 weeks if they want to.  All they have to do is block your domain,
>>> pretending you are a spammer, and refuse to unblock you, and in two 
>>> weeks
>>> your Email customers will be gone.  They can do the same with your web
>>> content.  Who ever has the majorit market share of customer sites with
>>> limited options, will be in control.
>>>
>>> Anti-Trust protection is the failure of the regulators. Bundling will
>>> kill
>>> everyone else. Verizon is doing it now... Get a discount on your home
>>> broadband, if you buy their cell phone service.
>>> If Verizon has your cell phone business, they will get your broadband.
>>> AT&T
>>> had followed sute, or vice versa. Are you a cell phone provider? Will 
>>> you
>>> be
>>> able to compete?  Why do you think Comcast was interested in investing 
>>> in
>>> Clearwire?  Comcast isn't a cell phone carrier yet. They are at a
>>> disadvantage.  Verizon used to be at a disadvantage because they didn't
>>> offer TV.
>>>
>>> As long as legislators do not distinguish the difference between
>>> different
>>> communication services/providers, and allows cross platform bundling,
>>> Independant providers will die, Not only the Free Internet. Everyone
>>> knows
>>> the money is in the content, when you control access to what content
>>> people
>>> can get to. They only want what they know exists, what they are allowed
>>> to
>

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Chuck McCown - 2]

My posting was more along the lines of informational and sensitizing folks 
to focusing their angst toward the appropriate parties.  But even if the 
RBOCs are truly the death stars of our universe, I still do not understand 
why folks do not simply bypass them and go directly to the XOs and Sprints 
and Level3s of the world.  The RBOCs really don't have any superior standing 
or abilities if you can get to alternate upstream providers.  I really think 
the blocking argument is a non issue.

- Original Message - 
From: "John Scrivner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


> The term to better describe the people who are feared is the term
> "RBOC", not the "ILEC". I consider you and other smaller ILECs who are
> WISPs to be sharing many common concerns with the rest of us. I try to
> draw attention to the fact that RBOCs are generally the ones who are
> using the bully tactics to overpower all the smaller interests in
> broadband. I think it is a good idea for us to remember this when we
> are making generalizations about the telco giants out there who could
> squash our interests easily. I am certain nobody was intentionally
> referring to you or your ILEC Chuck.
> Scriv
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Chuck McCown - 2 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
>> Hold on there.  I am an incumbent as in the "I" in ILEC.  I have fiber
>> directly to Level 3, XO and the option of hitting all the rest.  If there 
>> is
>> such a thing as "the pipe" I wish someone would point it out to me.   We
>> don't control anything.  If you are a wholesale customer, you are
>> essentially directly connected to those two upstream providers.  Who are
>> these incumbents and where is that pipe?
>> ----- Original Message -
>> From: "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 12:42 AM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>>
>>
>>> Sadly, I have to agree. The incumbents want to own the "pipe" so that
>>> they can control what goes over it and milk as much profit as possible
>>> from their "pipe". Supposedly it's done to "benefit" the stockholder but
>>> everyone else will be getting screwed. That's the way business is done
>>> in this day and age. They can't take over the "pipe" all at once because
>>> people would howl bloody murder so they take it away a little bit at a
>>> time so people don't catch on until it's too late. For more perspective,
>>> one might want to read about "How to boil a frog".
>>> <http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.asp>
>>>
>>> jack
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom DeReggi wrote:
>>>> It can and will happen.  There have been plans to take over/Hijack  the
>>>> Internet since day 1. Microsoft being one of the early entities that
>>>> tried
>>>> and failed to accomplish it, by purposely modifying standard protocols
>>>> with
>>>> microsoft standards to be integrated into the TCP Stack. Its happens
>>>> already
>>>> with Smart cell phone. Are developers really that stupid that that its
>>>> taken
>>>> them 10 years to get a cell ohone that will work on TCPIP, when instead
>>>> they
>>>> try to sell proprietary portals to controlled content.  Look who is
>>>> buying
>>>> up the INternet? Cable companies! Same with Whitespaces, The 
>>>> Broadcasters
>>>> are proposing to keep the spectrum, so they can be the next Wireless
>>>> provider. BUyers with years of history with the mentality charging for
>>>> content, and packaging content based on the the most profitable offer.
>>>>
>>>> The only way to stop it is to enable competition. And the only way to
>>>> keep
>>>> it enabled is to subsidize it, to make sure it stays.
>>>>
>>>> Sure they can block all sites. They can steal your Email customers in
>>>> about
>>>> 2 weeks if they want to.  All they have to do is block your domain,
>>>> pretending you are a spammer, and refuse to unblock you, and in two 
>>>> weeks
>>>> your Email customers will be gone.  They can do the same with your web
>>>> content.  Who ever has the majorit market share of customer sites with
>>>> limited options, will b

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Chuck McCown - 2]

Funny how on email, if the meaning of a note is not exceptionally clear, we 
all seem to take the more negative options as to what it might mean.  I 
wonder why that is.
- Original Message - 
From: "John Scrivner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


> The term to better describe the people who are feared is the term
> "RBOC", not the "ILEC". I consider you and other smaller ILECs who are
> WISPs to be sharing many common concerns with the rest of us. I try to
> draw attention to the fact that RBOCs are generally the ones who are
> using the bully tactics to overpower all the smaller interests in
> broadband. I think it is a good idea for us to remember this when we
> are making generalizations about the telco giants out there who could
> squash our interests easily. I am certain nobody was intentionally
> referring to you or your ILEC Chuck.
> Scriv
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Chuck McCown - 2 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
>> Hold on there.  I am an incumbent as in the "I" in ILEC.  I have fiber
>> directly to Level 3, XO and the option of hitting all the rest.  If there 
>> is
>> such a thing as "the pipe" I wish someone would point it out to me.   We
>> don't control anything.  If you are a wholesale customer, you are
>> essentially directly connected to those two upstream providers.  Who are
>> these incumbents and where is that pipe?
>> ----- Original Message -
>> From: "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 12:42 AM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>>
>>
>>> Sadly, I have to agree. The incumbents want to own the "pipe" so that
>>> they can control what goes over it and milk as much profit as possible
>>> from their "pipe". Supposedly it's done to "benefit" the stockholder but
>>> everyone else will be getting screwed. That's the way business is done
>>> in this day and age. They can't take over the "pipe" all at once because
>>> people would howl bloody murder so they take it away a little bit at a
>>> time so people don't catch on until it's too late. For more perspective,
>>> one might want to read about "How to boil a frog".
>>> <http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.asp>
>>>
>>> jack
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom DeReggi wrote:
>>>> It can and will happen.  There have been plans to take over/Hijack  the
>>>> Internet since day 1. Microsoft being one of the early entities that
>>>> tried
>>>> and failed to accomplish it, by purposely modifying standard protocols
>>>> with
>>>> microsoft standards to be integrated into the TCP Stack. Its happens
>>>> already
>>>> with Smart cell phone. Are developers really that stupid that that its
>>>> taken
>>>> them 10 years to get a cell ohone that will work on TCPIP, when instead
>>>> they
>>>> try to sell proprietary portals to controlled content.  Look who is
>>>> buying
>>>> up the INternet? Cable companies! Same with Whitespaces, The 
>>>> Broadcasters
>>>> are proposing to keep the spectrum, so they can be the next Wireless
>>>> provider. BUyers with years of history with the mentality charging for
>>>> content, and packaging content based on the the most profitable offer.
>>>>
>>>> The only way to stop it is to enable competition. And the only way to
>>>> keep
>>>> it enabled is to subsidize it, to make sure it stays.
>>>>
>>>> Sure they can block all sites. They can steal your Email customers in
>>>> about
>>>> 2 weeks if they want to.  All they have to do is block your domain,
>>>> pretending you are a spammer, and refuse to unblock you, and in two 
>>>> weeks
>>>> your Email customers will be gone.  They can do the same with your web
>>>> content.  Who ever has the majorit market share of customer sites with
>>>> limited options, will be in control.
>>>>
>>>> Anti-Trust protection is the failure of the regulators. Bundling will
>>>> kill
>>>> everyone else. Verizon is doing it now... Get a discount on your home
>>>> broadband, if you buy their cell phone service.
>>>> If Verizon has your cell pho

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[John Scrivner]

The term to better describe the people who are feared is the term
"RBOC", not the "ILEC". I consider you and other smaller ILECs who are
WISPs to be sharing many common concerns with the rest of us. I try to
draw attention to the fact that RBOCs are generally the ones who are
using the bully tactics to overpower all the smaller interests in
broadband. I think it is a good idea for us to remember this when we
are making generalizations about the telco giants out there who could
squash our interests easily. I am certain nobody was intentionally
referring to you or your ILEC Chuck.
Scriv


On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Chuck McCown - 2 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hold on there.  I am an incumbent as in the "I" in ILEC.  I have fiber
> directly to Level 3, XO and the option of hitting all the rest.  If there is
> such a thing as "the pipe" I wish someone would point it out to me.   We
> don't control anything.  If you are a wholesale customer, you are
> essentially directly connected to those two upstream providers.  Who are
> these incumbents and where is that pipe?
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 12:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>
>
>> Sadly, I have to agree. The incumbents want to own the "pipe" so that
>> they can control what goes over it and milk as much profit as possible
>> from their "pipe". Supposedly it's done to "benefit" the stockholder but
>> everyone else will be getting screwed. That's the way business is done
>> in this day and age. They can't take over the "pipe" all at once because
>> people would howl bloody murder so they take it away a little bit at a
>> time so people don't catch on until it's too late. For more perspective,
>> one might want to read about "How to boil a frog".
>> <http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.asp>
>>
>> jack
>>
>>
>> Tom DeReggi wrote:
>>> It can and will happen.  There have been plans to take over/Hijack  the
>>> Internet since day 1. Microsoft being one of the early entities that
>>> tried
>>> and failed to accomplish it, by purposely modifying standard protocols
>>> with
>>> microsoft standards to be integrated into the TCP Stack. Its happens
>>> already
>>> with Smart cell phone. Are developers really that stupid that that its
>>> taken
>>> them 10 years to get a cell ohone that will work on TCPIP, when instead
>>> they
>>> try to sell proprietary portals to controlled content.  Look who is
>>> buying
>>> up the INternet? Cable companies! Same with Whitespaces, The Broadcasters
>>> are proposing to keep the spectrum, so they can be the next Wireless
>>> provider. BUyers with years of history with the mentality charging for
>>> content, and packaging content based on the the most profitable offer.
>>>
>>> The only way to stop it is to enable competition. And the only way to
>>> keep
>>> it enabled is to subsidize it, to make sure it stays.
>>>
>>> Sure they can block all sites. They can steal your Email customers in
>>> about
>>> 2 weeks if they want to.  All they have to do is block your domain,
>>> pretending you are a spammer, and refuse to unblock you, and in two weeks
>>> your Email customers will be gone.  They can do the same with your web
>>> content.  Who ever has the majorit market share of customer sites with
>>> limited options, will be in control.
>>>
>>> Anti-Trust protection is the failure of the regulators. Bundling will
>>> kill
>>> everyone else. Verizon is doing it now... Get a discount on your home
>>> broadband, if you buy their cell phone service.
>>> If Verizon has your cell phone business, they will get your broadband.
>>> AT&T
>>> had followed sute, or vice versa. Are you a cell phone provider? Will you
>>> be
>>> able to compete?  Why do you think Comcast was interested in investing in
>>> Clearwire?  Comcast isn't a cell phone carrier yet. They are at a
>>> disadvantage.  Verizon used to be at a disadvantage because they didn't
>>> offer TV.
>>>
>>> As long as legislators do not distinguish the difference between
>>> different
>>> communication services/providers, and allows cross platform bundling,
>>> Independant providers will die, Not only the Free Internet. Everyone
>>&g

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Chuck McCown - 2]

Hold on there.  I am an incumbent as in the "I" in ILEC.  I have fiber 
directly to Level 3, XO and the option of hitting all the rest.  If there is 
such a thing as "the pipe" I wish someone would point it out to me.   We 
don't control anything.  If you are a wholesale customer, you are 
essentially directly connected to those two upstream providers.  Who are 
these incumbents and where is that pipe?
- Original Message - 
From: "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 12:42 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


> Sadly, I have to agree. The incumbents want to own the "pipe" so that
> they can control what goes over it and milk as much profit as possible
> from their "pipe". Supposedly it's done to "benefit" the stockholder but
> everyone else will be getting screwed. That's the way business is done
> in this day and age. They can't take over the "pipe" all at once because
> people would howl bloody murder so they take it away a little bit at a
> time so people don't catch on until it's too late. For more perspective,
> one might want to read about "How to boil a frog".
> <http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.asp>
>
> jack
>
>
> Tom DeReggi wrote:
>> It can and will happen.  There have been plans to take over/Hijack  the
>> Internet since day 1. Microsoft being one of the early entities that 
>> tried
>> and failed to accomplish it, by purposely modifying standard protocols 
>> with
>> microsoft standards to be integrated into the TCP Stack. Its happens 
>> already
>> with Smart cell phone. Are developers really that stupid that that its 
>> taken
>> them 10 years to get a cell ohone that will work on TCPIP, when instead 
>> they
>> try to sell proprietary portals to controlled content.  Look who is 
>> buying
>> up the INternet? Cable companies! Same with Whitespaces, The Broadcasters
>> are proposing to keep the spectrum, so they can be the next Wireless
>> provider. BUyers with years of history with the mentality charging for
>> content, and packaging content based on the the most profitable offer.
>>
>> The only way to stop it is to enable competition. And the only way to 
>> keep
>> it enabled is to subsidize it, to make sure it stays.
>>
>> Sure they can block all sites. They can steal your Email customers in 
>> about
>> 2 weeks if they want to.  All they have to do is block your domain,
>> pretending you are a spammer, and refuse to unblock you, and in two weeks
>> your Email customers will be gone.  They can do the same with your web
>> content.  Who ever has the majorit market share of customer sites with
>> limited options, will be in control.
>>
>> Anti-Trust protection is the failure of the regulators. Bundling will 
>> kill
>> everyone else. Verizon is doing it now... Get a discount on your home
>> broadband, if you buy their cell phone service.
>> If Verizon has your cell phone business, they will get your broadband. 
>> AT&T
>> had followed sute, or vice versa. Are you a cell phone provider? Will you 
>> be
>> able to compete?  Why do you think Comcast was interested in investing in
>> Clearwire?  Comcast isn't a cell phone carrier yet. They are at a
>> disadvantage.  Verizon used to be at a disadvantage because they didn't
>> offer TV.
>>
>> As long as legislators do not distinguish the difference between 
>> different
>> communication services/providers, and allows cross platform bundling,
>> Independant providers will die, Not only the Free Internet. Everyone 
>> knows
>> the money is in the content, when you control access to what content 
>> people
>> can get to. They only want what they know exists, what they are allowed 
>> to
>> know is available. The first step to controlling the content, is 
>> controlling
>> the pipe, to force the content.
>>
>> And I can tell you for sure, that IPowers message would not have been
>> allowed to air on Verizon Broadband TV.
>>
>>
>> Tom DeReggi
>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Victoria Proffer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 10:29 AM
>> Subject: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>>
>>
>>
>>> Could this ever happen?
>>> http://ipower.ning.com/netneutrality2
>>

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Jack Unger]

Sadly, I have to agree. The incumbents want to own the "pipe" so that 
they can control what goes over it and milk as much profit as possible 
from their "pipe". Supposedly it's done to "benefit" the stockholder but 
everyone else will be getting screwed. That's the way business is done 
in this day and age. They can't take over the "pipe" all at once because 
people would howl bloody murder so they take it away a little bit at a 
time so people don't catch on until it's too late. For more perspective, 
one might want to read about "How to boil a frog". 


jack


Tom DeReggi wrote:
> It can and will happen.  There have been plans to take over/Hijack  the 
> Internet since day 1. Microsoft being one of the early entities that tried 
> and failed to accomplish it, by purposely modifying standard protocols with 
> microsoft standards to be integrated into the TCP Stack. Its happens already 
> with Smart cell phone. Are developers really that stupid that that its taken 
> them 10 years to get a cell ohone that will work on TCPIP, when instead they 
> try to sell proprietary portals to controlled content.  Look who is buying 
> up the INternet? Cable companies! Same with Whitespaces, The Broadcasters 
> are proposing to keep the spectrum, so they can be the next Wireless 
> provider. BUyers with years of history with the mentality charging for 
> content, and packaging content based on the the most profitable offer.
>
> The only way to stop it is to enable competition. And the only way to keep 
> it enabled is to subsidize it, to make sure it stays.
>
> Sure they can block all sites. They can steal your Email customers in about 
> 2 weeks if they want to.  All they have to do is block your domain, 
> pretending you are a spammer, and refuse to unblock you, and in two weeks 
> your Email customers will be gone.  They can do the same with your web 
> content.  Who ever has the majorit market share of customer sites with 
> limited options, will be in control.
>
> Anti-Trust protection is the failure of the regulators. Bundling will kill 
> everyone else. Verizon is doing it now... Get a discount on your home 
> broadband, if you buy their cell phone service.
> If Verizon has your cell phone business, they will get your broadband. AT&T 
> had followed sute, or vice versa. Are you a cell phone provider? Will you be 
> able to compete?  Why do you think Comcast was interested in investing in 
> Clearwire?  Comcast isn't a cell phone carrier yet. They are at a 
> disadvantage.  Verizon used to be at a disadvantage because they didn't 
> offer TV.
>
> As long as legislators do not distinguish the difference between different 
> communication services/providers, and allows cross platform bundling, 
> Independant providers will die, Not only the Free Internet. Everyone knows 
> the money is in the content, when you control access to what content people 
> can get to. They only want what they know exists, what they are allowed to 
> know is available. The first step to controlling the content, is controlling 
> the pipe, to force the content.
>
> And I can tell you for sure, that IPowers message would not have been 
> allowed to air on Verizon Broadband TV.
>
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Victoria Proffer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 10:29 AM
> Subject: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>
>
>   
>> Could this ever happen?
>> http://ipower.ning.com/netneutrality2
>>
>> Of my almost 17 years as an ISP, I find it hard to believe.
>> How could the LECs possibly block all the sites?
>> If this is true, what could we do to stop it?
>>
>> Thanks for your thoughts.
>>
>> Victoria Proffer
>> CEO
>> St. Louis Broadband
>> Visit us @
>> www.StLBroadband.com
>> 314-974-5600
>>
>>
>> 
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>>
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-- 
Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993
Cisco Press Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs"
Vendor-Neutral Wireless Design-Training-Troubleshooting-Consulting
FCC 

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Tom DeReggi]

Its your right to free speech. However, its not your right to do it on their 
network. Because their network doesn't belong to the people. Thats the 
problem, we are allowing it to be "their" network, not a public one.  The 
second one says allow the market pressure work it out, well, its no longer 
about the public anymore.

We are at scary times. We are hitting all the cross roads that will define 
whether the Internet ( or I should say "Free OPEN Communication")  will 
continue to exist.
Nobody cared when Free Speach allowed someone to run their mouth, when the 
speaker could never reach a significant audience. Its scary that the 
Internet enabled a single voice to reach millions.

Think about how much money has been lost by product sellers because 
consumers could share the truth about the products with world, to influence 
buying decissions.  What would it be worth to sellers to be able to put a 
gag order on the negative talk about them? There is big money, in provding 
the censored gateway to the consumer. People in t he advertsing business 
know that. Of course they free advertiser support networks, that they have 
been granted to control the advertising on. A network that possibly had the 
dream to reach every one in the city that everyone in the city likely would 
use.  Fortunteately for consumers, the free models failed. :-)

How about Verizons latest experiement on Email, using blacklist, to only 
allow Verizon Email domains sending across their DSL IPs. Or something like 
that. They do give the person the right to opt out, at the Blacklist site, 
But who can figure that out?

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Victoria Proffer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


> Personally I think we are coming into some scary times.
>
> *The state of New York is now blocking Usenet Groups*:
>
> 6/10/08
> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-9964895-38.html
>
>> New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo announced on Tuesday that Verizon
>> Communications, Time Warner Cable, and Sprint would "shut down major 
>> sources
>> of online child pornography."
>> What Cuomo didn't say is that his agreement with broadband providers 
>> means
>> that they will broadly curb customers' access to Usenet--the venerable
>> pre-Web home of some 100,000 discussion groups, only a handful of which
>> contain illegal material.
>
>
> Verizon offers details of Usenet deletion: alt.* groups, others 
> gone6/12/08
> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-9967119-38.html
>
>> Verizon Communications confirmed on Thursday that it will stop offering 
>> its
>> customers access to tens of thousands of Usenet discussion areas, 
>> including
>> the alt.* groups that have been a free-flowing area for discussions for 
>> over
>> two decades.
>
>
>
> Who wouldn't be against blocking child pornography sites?  But I think 
> once
> we start blocking sites we are opening a can of worms.  The Internet is
> about free speech in America, it is our inalienable right granted by our
> Constitution.  Other countries do not have these rights, such as China, 
> and
> they regulate their Internet.
>
> Are the bigger ISPs (AT&T, Verizon, Time Warner, etc.) going to set policy
> for the Internet? Are these monopolised ISPs going to be the Internet
> police?
>
> If so, how does that effect the smaller ISP's, such as myself?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:50 AM, Martha Huizenga <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>> Well, I can't believe this would actually happen. We certainly aren't
>> going to charge for visiting sites on a per site basis. Are you? With
>> all the talks from the FCC about getting access to the underserved and
>> unserved areas of the nation, I can't believe they would let this happen
>> either. I googled this and saw items referring to all ISPs are in talks
>> with content providers. Maybe the big guys, but not all ISPs are talking
>> about charging for content.
>>
>> If you read the links to the Telus products they are for mobile Internet
>> on your cell phone, not Internet on your computer. These are really two
>> different things.
>>
>> just my two cents.I'd like to hear what others have found.
>>
>> Martha Huizenga
>> DC Access, LLC
>>
>>
>> Victoria Proffer wrote:
>> > Could this ever happen?
>> > http://ipower.ning.com/netneutrality2
>> >
>> > Of my almost 17 y

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Tom DeReggi]

It can and will happen.  There have been plans to take over/Hijack  the 
Internet since day 1. Microsoft being one of the early entities that tried 
and failed to accomplish it, by purposely modifying standard protocols with 
microsoft standards to be integrated into the TCP Stack. Its happens already 
with Smart cell phone. Are developers really that stupid that that its taken 
them 10 years to get a cell ohone that will work on TCPIP, when instead they 
try to sell proprietary portals to controlled content.  Look who is buying 
up the INternet? Cable companies! Same with Whitespaces, The Broadcasters 
are proposing to keep the spectrum, so they can be the next Wireless 
provider. BUyers with years of history with the mentality charging for 
content, and packaging content based on the the most profitable offer.

The only way to stop it is to enable competition. And the only way to keep 
it enabled is to subsidize it, to make sure it stays.

Sure they can block all sites. They can steal your Email customers in about 
2 weeks if they want to.  All they have to do is block your domain, 
pretending you are a spammer, and refuse to unblock you, and in two weeks 
your Email customers will be gone.  They can do the same with your web 
content.  Who ever has the majorit market share of customer sites with 
limited options, will be in control.

Anti-Trust protection is the failure of the regulators. Bundling will kill 
everyone else. Verizon is doing it now... Get a discount on your home 
broadband, if you buy their cell phone service.
If Verizon has your cell phone business, they will get your broadband. AT&T 
had followed sute, or vice versa. Are you a cell phone provider? Will you be 
able to compete?  Why do you think Comcast was interested in investing in 
Clearwire?  Comcast isn't a cell phone carrier yet. They are at a 
disadvantage.  Verizon used to be at a disadvantage because they didn't 
offer TV.

As long as legislators do not distinguish the difference between different 
communication services/providers, and allows cross platform bundling, 
Independant providers will die, Not only the Free Internet. Everyone knows 
the money is in the content, when you control access to what content people 
can get to. They only want what they know exists, what they are allowed to 
know is available. The first step to controlling the content, is controlling 
the pipe, to force the content.

And I can tell you for sure, that IPowers message would not have been 
allowed to air on Verizon Broadband TV.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Victoria Proffer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 10:29 AM
Subject: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


> Could this ever happen?
> http://ipower.ning.com/netneutrality2
>
> Of my almost 17 years as an ISP, I find it hard to believe.
> How could the LECs possibly block all the sites?
> If this is true, what could we do to stop it?
>
> Thanks for your thoughts.
>
> Victoria Proffer
> CEO
> St. Louis Broadband
> Visit us @
> www.StLBroadband.com
> 314-974-5600
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 




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Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[George Rogato]

I don't know what to tell you Mark. I stay away from the political stuff 
on these industry lists because politics or the mere hint of it, gets 
some people inflamed. And we don't need people to be chased off because 
of heated discussions that offend. I'm sure you have that expression 
don't discuss religion, sex, or politics,  There's a reason. It's 
not the time or place or most importantly, the right people to talk 
politics with. People here want to talk wireless and industry, etc.

Politics does have an impact on our industry and we should be able to 
delve into that gently, if the temperament of the people involved 
allowed such sensitive talks.

An example is the future of our industry under the left after the past 
12 years of the right. Will it be good or bad?
But this open list is not a good place to discuss it. It would turn into 
a brawl.


I suppose if you want to get WISPA to do something for you or preferably 
with you, you need to:
1- buy a membership, it's doubtful you'll see any request from anyone 
who won't support WISPA with a paid membership get WISPA to spin it's 
wheels.
2- Gather support for such action that you think is beneficial to the 
wisp industry.
3- Once you have a fair amount of support, lobby the board to take 
action or to set up a committee that can decide what action to take.

I like committees. I created a couple of them here and think if a group 
of members want to create a committee to discuss some action or ideas, 
I'm all for it.

Aside from that, the wispa people are already busy on their various 
committees. Other people are going to have to step up. You too Mark.



George




[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> This is really confusing, George.   WISPA's self described job is to lobby 
> the FCC and regulators.
> When it's suggested WISPA should provide statements in opposition to bad 
> things they want to do,  you say "it's politics".
> 
> If it's politics to say that this industry should defend itself from excess 
> regulation, it's politics to do the reverse.
> 
> I am NOT being partisan.   I have NOT been partisan.   I have not discussed 
> anything but the dollar and hour impacts of regulatory misbehavior...
> 
> Why is that "politics" and yet "trading our compliance for never to arrive 
> favors in the future" is not?
> 
> Frankly, the latter is absolutely futile butt kissing, and the former is the 
> only productive thing we can do when talking to DC.
> 
> So, why is it "poltics" to state that excess regulation will hurt us... 
> And NOT "politics" to insist we play footsies with the regulators?
> 
> Of the few possible things that WISPA can actually DO in Washington DC, it 
> COULD act as our defense from runamok and overreaching beaurocrats, but 
> somehow that's a forbidden notion.But going and pretending that all this 
> "playing nice" by rolling over and playing like we're worms on boiling hot 
> pavement is going to get us antyhing but dead is ... not?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "George" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 4:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
> 
> 
>> Nobody ever rips you here Mark.
>> Point is, generally speaking politics is a taboo subject on these
>> various lists.
>> I'm sure there are peple that agree with you and disagree on these
>> lists, but most don't respond because we know what will happen.
>>
>> To bad you don't have a politics list somewhere that you can get people
>> to discuss politics with.
>>
>> Maybe you can start your own list serve for those that want to hash out
>> politics.
>>
>> Seriously, nobody is ripping you, certainly not wispa.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>> Guess who doesn't really believe in Free Speech.
>>>
>>> I get ripped here endlessly because I talk about how WE should stand up 
>>> for
>>> responsibility, our own economic and business liberty and here's a good
>>> example.
>>>
>>> Shall WISPA, et al, write position papers on how to block usenet groups, 
>>> or
>>> should we publicly state that we still ACTUALLY believe in our form of
>>> govenrment and demand our Constitution remain in effect?
>>>
>>> When did running a business prevent us from being citizens, interested in
>>> our rights and freedoms?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[reader]

This is really confusing, George.   WISPA's self described job is to lobby 
the FCC and regulators.
When it's suggested WISPA should provide statements in opposition to bad 
things they want to do,  you say "it's politics".

If it's politics to say that this industry should defend itself from excess 
regulation, it's politics to do the reverse.

I am NOT being partisan.   I have NOT been partisan.   I have not discussed 
anything but the dollar and hour impacts of regulatory misbehavior...

Why is that "politics" and yet "trading our compliance for never to arrive 
favors in the future" is not?

Frankly, the latter is absolutely futile butt kissing, and the former is the 
only productive thing we can do when talking to DC.

So, why is it "poltics" to state that excess regulation will hurt us... 
And NOT "politics" to insist we play footsies with the regulators?

Of the few possible things that WISPA can actually DO in Washington DC, it 
COULD act as our defense from runamok and overreaching beaurocrats, but 
somehow that's a forbidden notion.But going and pretending that all this 
"playing nice" by rolling over and playing like we're worms on boiling hot 
pavement is going to get us antyhing but dead is ... not?






- Original Message - 
From: "George" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


> Nobody ever rips you here Mark.
> Point is, generally speaking politics is a taboo subject on these
> various lists.
> I'm sure there are peple that agree with you and disagree on these
> lists, but most don't respond because we know what will happen.
>
> To bad you don't have a politics list somewhere that you can get people
> to discuss politics with.
>
> Maybe you can start your own list serve for those that want to hash out
> politics.
>
> Seriously, nobody is ripping you, certainly not wispa.
>
>
>
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> Guess who doesn't really believe in Free Speech.
>>
>> I get ripped here endlessly because I talk about how WE should stand up 
>> for
>> responsibility, our own economic and business liberty and here's a good
>> example.
>>
>> Shall WISPA, et al, write position papers on how to block usenet groups, 
>> or
>> should we publicly state that we still ACTUALLY believe in our form of
>> govenrment and demand our Constitution remain in effect?
>>
>> When did running a business prevent us from being citizens, interested in
>> our rights and freedoms?
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> 
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Victoria Proffer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 9:15 AM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>>
>>
>>> Personally I think we are coming into some scary times.
>>>
>>> *The state of New York is now blocking Usenet Groups*:
>>>
>>> 6/10/08
>>> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-9964895-38.html
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Victoria Proffer]

The French Government is now blocking sites on the Internet.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5j8n3L3F45SLEJwIdAneWFZ5b7a-gD917A3I82French
to block porn, terror, hate web sites

Jun 10, 2008

> PARIS (AP) — The French state and Internet service providers have struck a
> deal to block sites carrying child pornography or content linked to
> terrorism or racial hatred, Interior Minister Michel Alliot-Marie announced
> Tuesday.
>
> The plan, part of a larger effort to fight cybercriminality, is to go into
> effect in September when a "black list" will be built up based on input from
> Internet users who signal sites dealing with the offensive material, the
> minister said.
>
> The announcement comes on the heels of a similar deal in the United States,
> also announced Tuesday. There, three service providers — Verizon, Sprint and
> TimeWarner Cable_ have agreed with New York state officials to block child
> pornography sites nationwide.
>
> Alliot-Marie said all service providers in France have agreed to block
> offending sites but did not name them.
>
> "We can no longer tolerate the sexual exploitation of children in the form
> of cyber-pedopornography," Alliot-Marie said. "We have come to an agreement:
> the access to child pornography sites will be blocked in France. Other
> democracies have done it. France could wait no longer."
>
> Among other countries that have already implemented similar measures
> include Britain, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Canada and New Zealand.
>
> Under the French plan, Internet users, via a platform, will be able to
> signal inappropriate sites and the state, receiving the complaints in real
> time, will then decide whether the sites are to go on a so-called black list
> to be passed on to Internet service providers to enforce site blocks.
>
> Sites containing what appear to be blatant crimes will be referred to
> judicial authorities, the minister said.
>
> As for offending sites hosted in other countries, France will pass on the
> information via Interpol or Europol, the two police agencies, or seize
> judicial authorities there, Alliot-Marie said.
>
> She insisted that the plan would not "create a Big Brother of the Internet"
> and pledged her support for the "fundamental liberty that is Internet
> access."
>
> France's upcoming presidency of the European Union will be a chance to
> coordinate efforts between countries, she said, adding that efforts are
> often needlessly duplicated and sites shut down in one country often pop up
> in another.
>

While I am in favor of getting rid of every child porn site on the net, I am
not in favor of this type of action.  Once it starts, it won't stop.  This
is wrong and needs to be addressed immediately, we don't want our Internet
to become like Chinas' Internet.

*OT - Yep, those Mayans...what a bunch of smart guys!
It is amazing how they could mathematically predict that we would be in a
solar maximum in 2012, also predicting that Jupiter would be on the same
side of the Sun as the Earth and crossing the Earths plane on December 12th
of that year and also seeing that Earth would be transeding through the
Milkyway on that date, a galactic period only seen every 26,000 years...y*ep,
some pretty smart guys!
Heres's a very good article: http://www.viewzone.com/endtime.html
And you can also run simulations at NASA http://space.jpl.nasa.gov/

If my Internet was blocked, I am sure that I would not get sites like the
one above.  The Internet, in America, is about free speech and our rights to
it.  By removing *ANY* groups, what ever they are, blocking my rights to the
US Constitution.


On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 10:19 AM, Tim Kerns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> And the "End of the Internet" is also timed to happen the same year as the
> "End of the World" this is according to the "End" of the Mayan
> calendar.
>
> Just what you wanted to know...
>
> lol   :)
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Kurt Fankhauser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>
>
> > This is not going to happen, it's a video on Youtube, any Joe Blow can
> > post
> > whatever on Youtube and there are a lot of videos like this on there set
> > out
> > to scare people. However I think that we will see "metered bandwidth"
> > before
> > this could ever happen.
> >
> > Kurt Fankhauser
> > WAVELINC
> > P.O. Box 126
> > Bucyrus, OH 44820
> > 419-562-6405
> > www.wavelinc.com
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
&

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Tim Kerns]

And the "End of the Internet" is also timed to happen the same year as the 
"End of the World" this is according to the "End" of the Mayan calendar.

Just what you wanted to know...

lol   :)


- Original Message - 
From: "Kurt Fankhauser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


> This is not going to happen, it's a video on Youtube, any Joe Blow can 
> post
> whatever on Youtube and there are a lot of videos like this on there set 
> out
> to scare people. However I think that we will see "metered bandwidth" 
> before
> this could ever happen.
>
> Kurt Fankhauser
> WAVELINC
> P.O. Box 126
> Bucyrus, OH 44820
> 419-562-6405
> www.wavelinc.com
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Victoria Proffer
> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 11:30 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
>
> Could this ever happen?
> http://ipower.ning.com/netneutrality2
>
> Of my almost 17 years as an ISP, I find it hard to believe.
> How could the LECs possibly block all the sites?
> If this is true, what could we do to stop it?
>
> Thanks for your thoughts.
>
> Victoria Proffer
> CEO
> St. Louis Broadband
> Visit us @
> www.StLBroadband.com
> 314-974-5600
>
>
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
> 




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Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Kurt Fankhauser]

This is not going to happen, it's a video on Youtube, any Joe Blow can post
whatever on Youtube and there are a lot of videos like this on there set out
to scare people. However I think that we will see "metered bandwidth" before
this could ever happen.

Kurt Fankhauser
WAVELINC
P.O. Box 126
Bucyrus, OH 44820
419-562-6405
www.wavelinc.com
 
 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victoria Proffer
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 11:30 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

Could this ever happen?
http://ipower.ning.com/netneutrality2

Of my almost 17 years as an ISP, I find it hard to believe.
How could the LECs possibly block all the sites?
If this is true, what could we do to stop it?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Victoria Proffer
CEO
St. Louis Broadband
Visit us @
www.StLBroadband.com
314-974-5600




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Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Jack Unger]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Guess who doesn't really believe in Free Speech.
>   
You?
> I get ripped here endlessly because I talk about how WE should stand up for 
> responsibility, our own economic and business liberty and here's a good 
> example.
>   
I'll bet you feel that you're being ripped because that's the way you 
always feel. Is it possible that your attitude is always alienating people??
> Shall WISPA, et al, write position papers on how to block usenet groups, or 
> should we publicly state that we still ACTUALLY believe in our form of 
> govenrment and demand our Constitution remain in effect?
>   
Yes!
> When did running a business prevent us from being citizens, interested in 
> our rights and freedoms?
>   
My guess (and I'm a college-trained psycho-billy astrologer) is that 
there's only person who's preventing you from doing the right thing, and 
that person is you.
>
>
> 
> 
>   
Witty Tagline Inserted Here - < Confucious say, "Man who cleans up own 
act will sooner be happy" >


-- 
Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993
Cisco Press Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs"
Vendor-Neutral Wireless Design-Training-Troubleshooting-Consulting
FCC License # PG-12-25133 Profile 
Phone 818-227-4220  Email <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>






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Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[George]

Nobody ever rips you here Mark.
Point is, generally speaking politics is a taboo subject on these 
various lists.
I'm sure there are peple that agree with you and disagree on these 
lists, but most don't respond because we know what will happen.

To bad you don't have a politics list somewhere that you can get people 
to discuss politics with.

Maybe you can start your own list serve for those that want to hash out 
politics.

Seriously, nobody is ripping you, certainly not wispa.





[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Guess who doesn't really believe in Free Speech.
> 
> I get ripped here endlessly because I talk about how WE should stand up for 
> responsibility, our own economic and business liberty and here's a good 
> example.
> 
> Shall WISPA, et al, write position papers on how to block usenet groups, or 
> should we publicly state that we still ACTUALLY believe in our form of 
> govenrment and demand our Constitution remain in effect?
> 
> When did running a business prevent us from being citizens, interested in 
> our rights and freedoms?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Victoria Proffer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 9:15 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet
> 
> 
>> Personally I think we are coming into some scary times.
>>
>> *The state of New York is now blocking Usenet Groups*:
>>
>> 6/10/08
>> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-9964895-38.html
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> 
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> 
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/




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Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[reader]

Guess who doesn't really believe in Free Speech.

I get ripped here endlessly because I talk about how WE should stand up for 
responsibility, our own economic and business liberty and here's a good 
example.

Shall WISPA, et al, write position papers on how to block usenet groups, or 
should we publicly state that we still ACTUALLY believe in our form of 
govenrment and demand our Constitution remain in effect?

When did running a business prevent us from being citizens, interested in 
our rights and freedoms?






- Original Message - 
From: "Victoria Proffer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


> Personally I think we are coming into some scary times.
>
> *The state of New York is now blocking Usenet Groups*:
>
> 6/10/08
> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-9964895-38.html
>




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Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Mike Hammett]

I partially disagree...  It'll be broadband providers.  Your T1, fiber, etc. 
connections will most likely remain open as you're ACTUALLY paying for what 
you use, unlike broadband which uses oversubscription.


--
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Dennis Burgess" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


>I think this is going to be part of it, but i would assume that it would
> be more of a speed of access. I can see big companies, such as these in
> question, charging extra to access high bandwidth content, such as
> youtube etc.  This though, will be paid,  by the content providers to
> give priority, and higher bandwidth allocations to these sites.A
> thought would be a GigE link would allow only 500 meg or so to normal
> internet sites, but the rest would be reserved for these content sites.
>
> Someone is going to make a buck, and unfortunately, its the backbone
> providers.  the Tier 1 guys whos networks are vast and wide.
>
> --
> * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
> 314-735-0270
> http://www.linktechs.net <http://www.linktechs.net/>
>
> */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training
> <http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp>/*
>
>
>
> Jack Unger wrote:
>> I oppose limiting access to ANY sites because freedom (in my mind
>> anyway) is about access to all ideas but on the big business level you
>> must admit that charging for access is a very attractive and profitable
>> idea. I would not be surprised at all to see the large ISPs begin to try
>> to implement a pay-by-site (or pay-by-site-package) model. In order to
>> maximize their chances to succeed without a massive public outcry, they
>> would plan to do it a little at a time. One way to start "a little at a
>> time" would be by starting with the mobile Internet for example.
>>
>> jack
>>
>>
>> Martha Huizenga wrote:
>>
>>> Well, I can't believe this would actually happen. We certainly aren't
>>> going to charge for visiting sites on a per site basis. Are you? With
>>> all the talks from the FCC about getting access to the underserved and
>>> unserved areas of the nation, I can't believe they would let this happen
>>> either. I googled this and saw items referring to all ISPs are in talks
>>> with content providers. Maybe the big guys, but not all ISPs are talking
>>> about charging for content.
>>>
>>> If you read the links to the Telus products they are for mobile Internet
>>> on your cell phone, not Internet on your computer. These are really two
>>> different things.
>>>
>>> just my two cents.I'd like to hear what others have found.
>>>
>>> Martha Huizenga
>>> DC Access, LLC
>>>
>>>
>>> Victoria Proffer wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Could this ever happen?
>>>> http://ipower.ning.com/netneutrality2
>>>>
>>>> Of my almost 17 years as an ISP, I find it hard to believe.
>>>> How could the LECs possibly block all the sites?
>>>> If this is true, what could we do to stop it?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your thoughts.
>>>>
>>>> Victoria Proffer
>>>> CEO
>>>> St. Louis Broadband
>>>> Visit us @
>>>> www.StLBroadband.com
>>>> 314-974-5600
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>>
>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>>
>>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> 

Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Mike Hammett]

Let them...  Marketing becomes a whole lot easier when you can say, "Get all 
of the Internet, not just what Comcast or Verizon allows you to see." 
(Trademark me, and now)  :-p


--
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet


>I oppose limiting access to ANY sites because freedom (in my mind
> anyway) is about access to all ideas but on the big business level you
> must admit that charging for access is a very attractive and profitable
> idea. I would not be surprised at all to see the large ISPs begin to try
> to implement a pay-by-site (or pay-by-site-package) model. In order to
> maximize their chances to succeed without a massive public outcry, they
> would plan to do it a little at a time. One way to start "a little at a
> time" would be by starting with the mobile Internet for example.
>
> jack
>
>
> Martha Huizenga wrote:
>> Well, I can't believe this would actually happen. We certainly aren't
>> going to charge for visiting sites on a per site basis. Are you? With
>> all the talks from the FCC about getting access to the underserved and
>> unserved areas of the nation, I can't believe they would let this happen
>> either. I googled this and saw items referring to all ISPs are in talks
>> with content providers. Maybe the big guys, but not all ISPs are talking
>> about charging for content.
>>
>> If you read the links to the Telus products they are for mobile Internet
>> on your cell phone, not Internet on your computer. These are really two
>> different things.
>>
>> just my two cents.I'd like to hear what others have found.
>>
>> Martha Huizenga
>> DC Access, LLC
>>
>>
>> Victoria Proffer wrote:
>>
>>> Could this ever happen?
>>> http://ipower.ning.com/netneutrality2
>>>
>>> Of my almost 17 years as an ISP, I find it hard to believe.
>>> How could the LECs possibly block all the sites?
>>> If this is true, what could we do to stop it?
>>>
>>> Thanks for your thoughts.
>>>
>>> Victoria Proffer
>>> CEO
>>> St. Louis Broadband
>>> Visit us @
>>> www.StLBroadband.com
>>> 314-974-5600
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> -- 
> Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
> Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993
> Cisco Press Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs"
> Vendor-Neutral Wireless Design-Training-Troubleshooting-Consulting
> FCC License # PG-12-25133 Profile <http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger>
> Phone 818-227-4220  Email <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 




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Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Dennis Burgess]

I think this is going to be part of it, but i would assume that it would 
be more of a speed of access. I can see big companies, such as these in 
question, charging extra to access high bandwidth content, such as 
youtube etc.  This though, will be paid,  by the content providers to 
give priority, and higher bandwidth allocations to these sites.A 
thought would be a GigE link would allow only 500 meg or so to normal 
internet sites, but the rest would be reserved for these content sites. 

Someone is going to make a buck, and unfortunately, its the backbone 
providers.  the Tier 1 guys whos networks are vast and wide. 

--
* Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
314-735-0270
http://www.linktechs.net 

*/ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training 
/*



Jack Unger wrote:
> I oppose limiting access to ANY sites because freedom (in my mind 
> anyway) is about access to all ideas but on the big business level you 
> must admit that charging for access is a very attractive and profitable 
> idea. I would not be surprised at all to see the large ISPs begin to try 
> to implement a pay-by-site (or pay-by-site-package) model. In order to 
> maximize their chances to succeed without a massive public outcry, they 
> would plan to do it a little at a time. One way to start "a little at a 
> time" would be by starting with the mobile Internet for example.
>
> jack
>
>
> Martha Huizenga wrote:
>   
>> Well, I can't believe this would actually happen. We certainly aren't 
>> going to charge for visiting sites on a per site basis. Are you? With 
>> all the talks from the FCC about getting access to the underserved and 
>> unserved areas of the nation, I can't believe they would let this happen 
>> either. I googled this and saw items referring to all ISPs are in talks 
>> with content providers. Maybe the big guys, but not all ISPs are talking 
>> about charging for content.
>>
>> If you read the links to the Telus products they are for mobile Internet 
>> on your cell phone, not Internet on your computer. These are really two 
>> different things.
>>
>> just my two cents.I'd like to hear what others have found.
>>
>> Martha Huizenga
>> DC Access, LLC
>>
>>
>> Victoria Proffer wrote:
>>   
>> 
>>> Could this ever happen?
>>> http://ipower.ning.com/netneutrality2
>>>
>>> Of my almost 17 years as an ISP, I find it hard to believe.
>>> How could the LECs possibly block all the sites?
>>> If this is true, what could we do to stop it?
>>>
>>> Thanks for your thoughts.
>>>
>>> Victoria Proffer
>>> CEO
>>> St. Louis Broadband
>>> Visit us @
>>> www.StLBroadband.com
>>> 314-974-5600
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> 
>>>  
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>
>>>   
>>> 
>>>   
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>  
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>>
>>
>>   
>> 
>
>   



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Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Jack Unger]

I oppose limiting access to ANY sites because freedom (in my mind 
anyway) is about access to all ideas but on the big business level you 
must admit that charging for access is a very attractive and profitable 
idea. I would not be surprised at all to see the large ISPs begin to try 
to implement a pay-by-site (or pay-by-site-package) model. In order to 
maximize their chances to succeed without a massive public outcry, they 
would plan to do it a little at a time. One way to start "a little at a 
time" would be by starting with the mobile Internet for example.

jack


Martha Huizenga wrote:
> Well, I can't believe this would actually happen. We certainly aren't 
> going to charge for visiting sites on a per site basis. Are you? With 
> all the talks from the FCC about getting access to the underserved and 
> unserved areas of the nation, I can't believe they would let this happen 
> either. I googled this and saw items referring to all ISPs are in talks 
> with content providers. Maybe the big guys, but not all ISPs are talking 
> about charging for content.
>
> If you read the links to the Telus products they are for mobile Internet 
> on your cell phone, not Internet on your computer. These are really two 
> different things.
>
> just my two cents.I'd like to hear what others have found.
>
> Martha Huizenga
> DC Access, LLC
>
>
> Victoria Proffer wrote:
>   
>> Could this ever happen?
>> http://ipower.ning.com/netneutrality2
>>
>> Of my almost 17 years as an ISP, I find it hard to believe.
>> How could the LECs possibly block all the sites?
>> If this is true, what could we do to stop it?
>>
>> Thanks for your thoughts.
>>
>> Victoria Proffer
>> CEO
>> St. Louis Broadband
>> Visit us @
>> www.StLBroadband.com
>> 314-974-5600
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>  
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>>   
>> 
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
>   

-- 
Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993
Cisco Press Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs"
Vendor-Neutral Wireless Design-Training-Troubleshooting-Consulting
FCC License # PG-12-25133 Profile 
Phone 818-227-4220  Email <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>






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Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Victoria Proffer]

Personally I think we are coming into some scary times.

*The state of New York is now blocking Usenet Groups*:

6/10/08
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-9964895-38.html

> New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo announced on Tuesday that Verizon
> Communications, Time Warner Cable, and Sprint would "shut down major sources
> of online child pornography."
> What Cuomo didn't say is that his agreement with broadband providers means
> that they will broadly curb customers' access to Usenet--the venerable
> pre-Web home of some 100,000 discussion groups, only a handful of which
> contain illegal material.


Verizon offers details of Usenet deletion: alt.* groups, others gone6/12/08
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-9967119-38.html

> Verizon Communications confirmed on Thursday that it will stop offering its
> customers access to tens of thousands of Usenet discussion areas, including
> the alt.* groups that have been a free-flowing area for discussions for over
> two decades.



Who wouldn't be against blocking child pornography sites?  But I think once
we start blocking sites we are opening a can of worms.  The Internet is
about free speech in America, it is our inalienable right granted by our
Constitution.  Other countries do not have these rights, such as China, and
they regulate their Internet.

Are the bigger ISPs (AT&T, Verizon, Time Warner, etc.) going to set policy
for the Internet? Are these monopolised ISPs going to be the Internet
police?

If so, how does that effect the smaller ISP's, such as myself?



On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:50 AM, Martha Huizenga <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Well, I can't believe this would actually happen. We certainly aren't
> going to charge for visiting sites on a per site basis. Are you? With
> all the talks from the FCC about getting access to the underserved and
> unserved areas of the nation, I can't believe they would let this happen
> either. I googled this and saw items referring to all ISPs are in talks
> with content providers. Maybe the big guys, but not all ISPs are talking
> about charging for content.
>
> If you read the links to the Telus products they are for mobile Internet
> on your cell phone, not Internet on your computer. These are really two
> different things.
>
> just my two cents.I'd like to hear what others have found.
>
> Martha Huizenga
> DC Access, LLC
>
>
> Victoria Proffer wrote:
> > Could this ever happen?
> > http://ipower.ning.com/netneutrality2
> >
> > Of my almost 17 years as an ISP, I find it hard to believe.
> > How could the LECs possibly block all the sites?
> > If this is true, what could we do to stop it?
> >
> > Thanks for your thoughts.
> >
> > Victoria Proffer
> > CEO
> > St. Louis Broadband
> > Visit us @
> > www.StLBroadband.com
> > 314-974-5600
> >
> >
> >
> 
> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
> 
> >
> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



-- 
Victoria Proffer
CEO
St. Louis Broadband
Visit us @
www.StLBroadband.com
314-974-5600



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Re: [WISPA] 2012 - The End of the Internet

[Martha Huizenga]

Well, I can't believe this would actually happen. We certainly aren't 
going to charge for visiting sites on a per site basis. Are you? With 
all the talks from the FCC about getting access to the underserved and 
unserved areas of the nation, I can't believe they would let this happen 
either. I googled this and saw items referring to all ISPs are in talks 
with content providers. Maybe the big guys, but not all ISPs are talking 
about charging for content.

If you read the links to the Telus products they are for mobile Internet 
on your cell phone, not Internet on your computer. These are really two 
different things.

just my two cents.I'd like to hear what others have found.

Martha Huizenga
DC Access, LLC


Victoria Proffer wrote:
> Could this ever happen?
> http://ipower.ning.com/netneutrality2
>
> Of my almost 17 years as an ISP, I find it hard to believe.
> How could the LECs possibly block all the sites?
> If this is true, what could we do to stop it?
>
> Thanks for your thoughts.
>
> Victoria Proffer
> CEO
> St. Louis Broadband
> Visit us @
> www.StLBroadband.com
> 314-974-5600
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>   



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