I made the comparison to the construction industry because:
1. we are both in the business of building things
and
2. the standards used benefit the end user.
A 'brickie' lays bricks in one of a number of standard methods using standard materials. The benefit of this is that the house
I was being specific and not defining the situation well, my bad. In
the UK it is against the law to provide an inaccessible service.
Therefore ONLY in the field of Accessibility, it is within the rights of
any disabled person to demand that any UK site should be accessible. In
practice, it
Yes, the key to this argument/discussion is whether your site offers a service to the general public. As suggested earlier we cant expect someone hosting his/her home page on Geocities to follow web standards, but anyone offering services online bears a moral responsibility to make those
Scott Swabey - Lafinboy Productions wrote:
The building codes analogy is one I often use myself, but as pointed out
already, it does fall flat when asked for the governing bodies that are
policing the web.
When faced with a client/agency/designer that doesn't (want to/need to)
understand the
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Montoya
Sent: Tuesday, 6 December 2005 3:40 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] talking points for standards
On 12/5/05, Ric Jude Raftis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote
Donna,in another thread, someone essentially asked "why code like this", in trying to convince a friend. I don't think he's getting very good answers but at any rate, it made me think of a "problem" I'm having and I've decided to make a new thread. I've noticed that responses to your similar
Hi Andreas,
None of the general public cares about whether our sites are AAA compliant,
whether they follow any standards or guidelines or not. What they want is a
site that works.
True and so they should have.
If you buy a washing machine and it tells you This washing machine follows
Bob wrote:
I've noticed that
responses to your similar "dilemma" have been quite
exhaustive.
Bob,
It may of helped you but I'm doubtful it has convinced
Donna?
That would be a better discussion - why with so much evidence to the
contrary, can the list not convince Donna to fight the PR
Alex James wrote:
That would be a better discussion - why with so much evidence to the contrary, can the list not convince Donna to fight the PR agency?
I don't actually think it's a fight she wants to have or necessarily
should undertake. Donna didn't ask us to bolster her up; she asked
Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
But if that comparison is inaccurate or outright misleading ...
...
I'm not sure if getting a contract because of FUD is the right way to go.
Which is why careful licence must be applied to the analogies used.
Explaining something in terms that the listener can relate
Now that is a pearl Mark! Is it copyrightLOL.
Regards,
Ric
Mark Harris wrote:
You can lead a client to knowledge, but you can't make them think!
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See
On 06/12/2005, at 5:32 PM, Donna Jones wrote:
Thanks again for your kind note and understanding.
and, very timely, Roger Johansson at 456 Berea st has covered the
same topic today -
Ten reasons to learn and use web standards
[http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200512/
You are absolutely correct Andreas. Bit the same as an Australian
Safety Standard, or Certificate of Electrical Compliance and the myriad
of other bits of pieces of terminology and standards that we live with
every day. But if we don't educate the public, how will they ever
learn. The tag
Terrence Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Donna Jones said:
A non-profit that i've maintained the website for for 8 years or so has
recently...hired a PR firm.
Why do the PR firm think they should maintain the site and not you?
Have they put forward any compelling reasons why they are better
I thought of a number of points relating to this standards issue...
The icons by w3c and others are meaningless and are a problem. They
need to have meaning to the reader. The average web visitor doesn't
even know that the W3C exists, let alone that they make recommendations
or determine
If I wanted new windows in my house I'd buy from the BS Standard compliant company every time, wouldn't you ?
The thing is though,if I click on the BS Standard logo it can't prove to me that the company is actually compliant , however in our industry, we as web designers can use our W3C logos
The other problem with the validation logos is that they don't always
mean that the page is valid. In my experience, a large number of sites
with these logos don't serve valid code and fail the test that they link
to.
I think that this analog with the construction world is not really
Donna Jones wrote:
...but, yes, back to my problem child non-profit. It may be time to
let it go, it is hard to see them get a poor website and pay a fair
amount of money for it ... it is also hard to validate myself and get
them to know that i do know what i'm doing, at least tons more than
Robert O'Neill wrote:
If I wanted new windows in my house I'd buy from the BS Standard
compliant company every time, wouldn't you ?
Well I dunno? I am in Canada and I am assuming this might be the same
as the Canadian Standards Association (CSA). In North America BS stands
for
From: Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]
have you ever seen a house with a huge sign on it: This
house is standards compliant?
No, but washing machines, fridges and cars are all now displaying
stickers that advise of their efficiency in terms of an industry
and government agreed star rating
Peter Williams wrote:
From: Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]
have you ever seen a house with a huge sign on it: This
house is standards compliant?
No, but washing machines, fridges and cars are all now displaying
stickers that advise of their efficiency in terms of an industry
and
On 12/6/05, Stephen Stagg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
A better way to force the implementation of Accessibility standards
would be to set up a group, or just urge disabled people, to sue
companies and web hosts who serve inaccessible sites. Once people and
customers realize that getting it wrong
Christian Montoya wrote:
On 12/6/05, Stephen Stagg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
A better way to force the implementation of Accessibility standards
would be to set up a group, or just urge disabled people, to sue
companies and web hosts who serve inaccessible sites. Once people and
customers
IMO the way forward is not to let others fight your fights (disabled vs
bad site owners) but to pick up the glove and fight back yourself...
together with others.
I think Lea's idea about a badge is not bad. I came to think of the
Dogme Manifesto (wonder why) and maybe something in that
Stephen Stagg:
A better way to force the implementation of Accessibility
standards would be to set up a group, or just urge disabled
people, to sue companies and web hosts who serve inaccessible
sites. Once people and customers realize that getting it
wrong will cost them, I'm sure that
Dear CSS Listers:
in another thread, someone essentially asked why code like this, in
trying to convince a friend. I don't think he's getting very good
answers but at any rate, it made me think of a problem I'm having and
I've decided to make a new thread.
A non-profit that i've maintained
I tell my clients that the only way you can measure if your website
(code wise) is any good is by using the industrial standards set by the
W3 and the validators. This also means that if you can't maintain the
site anymore any semi skilled coder should be able to take over. Not
very likely
Kim Kruse wrote:
I tell my clients that the only way you can measure if your website
(code wise) is any good is by using the industrial standards set by the
W3 and the validators. This also means that if you can't maintain the
site anymore any semi skilled coder should be able to take over.
Hi Donna,
That's why I mention the measure thingy and industrial standards. I
get the feeling that's something companies appreciate from a business
point of view.
Kim, I've tried that (they have no idea what the W3C is or validators
or why it matters and don't want to learn) and it doesn't
Donna,
That's why I mention the measure thingy and industrial standards. I
get the feeling that's something companies appreciate from a business
point of view.
Several of my coworkers and I recently gave a talk on when we chose to use
Web standards (and when we didn't). We created a handout
Donna,This is where you really need to be thinking in terms of what the customer wants.So it's the hippest, coolest, latest code - so what? They really don't care - and shouldn't care.Come up with points that assist them - as Kim was saying, show where your 'methods' (and you don't really need
I'm going to have to name drop my article again here :)
http://www.geminidevelopment.com.au/html/article_whycomplient.php
Samuel
adam reitsma wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Donna,
That's why I mention the
In my own experience, I find myself using the house analogy again and
again when it comes to websites and getting points across to clients.
There's a code for what is considered a good building. You cannot gain
a certificate of occupancy with passing code.
You CAN launch a site without
adam reitsma wrote:
- If there's a change to your site that you could forsee (for
instance, color scheme change, slight layout change, etc), outline the
time (=money) savings in changing your code, vs theirs.
I think this is the top point. Sure, the tag soup option may look good
now, but
Some articles:
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/csstalking/
http://www.graphicpush.com/index.php?id=49
http://www.adaptivepath.com/publications/essays/archives/000266.php
http://www.webstandards.org/learn/reference/web_standards_for_business.html
http://www.websitegoodies.com/article/38
G'day Donna,
The continuing fight against the incompetent and uncaring! Would they
allow their children to play with toys that didn't meet Australian
Safety Standards (or whatever country you're in)? Then why have a site
that doesn't meet world standards for web design?
Regards,
Ric
The processes of building a site with standards cool.
Best practices that cover every stage from
planning to customer sign off that can be found on
this lists posts and moderators/members sites.
For me it makes job turnaround smoother and quicker.
On 06/12/2005, at 1:01 AM, Donna Jones wrote:
I need to be able to explain, by looking at the surface, the
difference between standards coding versus you-know-what.
Another point: standards based markup is lighter - their overall
bandwidth will be lower, meaning they can buy the cheaper
Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:
You CAN launch a site without passing code, but there are groups that
are working together to enforce the integrity of the code.
And which groups would those be? And what authority do they have over
the site? Here's where the analogy may well fall apart, rather
Hi
They are a PR firm, so they will respond to $$ arguments. I suggest you
build two compliant pages, of exactly the same html code and re-present
them differently using CSS (like floats, PDA style. Show this to them,
flick between the two explaining how both sites can use the same
backend and
]
On Behalf Of Donna Jones
Sent: Tuesday, 6 December 2005 2:01 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] talking points for standards
A non-profit that i've maintained the website for for 8 years or so has
recently had some special grant money and as part of a package hired a PR
firm to work
The analogy is quite simple...
If there weren't codes to set guidelines for best practices when
constructing homes, what kind of homes would most people have?
People have been building sites for years now and have no idea that
guidelines even exist, let alone take steps to meet them and be
Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:
That's the point. That's why they want to have someone build a site for
them that has a clue about this stuff. The day WILL come when there is
a governing body over the net. There WAS a day when housing codes DID
NOT exist and were being worked on and accepted.
Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:
That's the point. That's why they want to have someone build a site
for them that has a clue about this stuff. The day WILL come when
there is a governing body over the net. There WAS a day when housing
codes DID NOT exist and were being
The web is intrinsically anarchous to some extent, occasioned in no
small part by individual publishers not beholden to any particular
standard (or even aware of them) -- Geocities users have no incentive
to make their site accessed by a few friends 'standards compliant' if
that increases the
Web standards
So assuming you want to make a case to a client
Strategy 1
Yes, accessibility, W3C, design for the future, screen readers, more elegant
code, blah blah blah
Try this and you will be sounding like the teacher in the Charlie Brown
cartoons I feel
Strategy 2
Do you want to save 20%
The building codes analogy is one I often use myself, but as pointed out
already, it does fall flat when asked for the governing bodies that are
policing the web.
When faced with a client/agency/designer that doesn't (want to/need to)
understand the 'technical' aspects (bandwidth, ease of
On 06/12/2005, at 12:46 PM, Joshua Street wrote:
We can get upset about how they're locking out users with PDAs and
mobile devices and hence potential customers, but that remains a
DECISION made by someone, for whatever reason. Not neccessarily an
informed and intelligent decision, but one
G'day
Dollars and cents is the language that will convince most, if not all,
sceptics.
The problem I face in that regard is that a lot of sales
enquiries I get are from people who want to maintain their own
site, for next to nothing.
They don't want to spend money on a content management
Donna Jones said:
A non-profit that i've maintained the website for for 8 years or so has
recently...hired a PR firm.
Why do the PR firm think they should maintain the site and not you?
Have they put forward any compelling reasons why they are better qualified
to look after a web site? Get
Do you really want those customers who want to maintain their pages in
Frontage only to load up your design with unoptimized images, tables
and tag sludge? You put this site in your portfolio and a prospect goes
to visit your butchered site. These clients are also the worst for
taking up too
I've only recently joined this group and I find this an interesting
discussion because it is a daily challenge for designers who are
desperately trying to do the right thing. I'm sure we would all love to
see the back of the cowboys in the industry who throw a Frontpage site
together with no
On 12/5/05, Ric Jude Raftis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The question is, how many designers include icons and links on their
sites back to W3C for XHTML and CSS? How many include an icon for
Accessibility? Personally, I don't have all my sites Triple A
compliant, but they do pass automated
Terrence and all: thank you for all your replies.
Lea said she thought accessibility was my strongest suit and I agree
with that. At least font-size increase is something that can be seen
on the surface, and perhaps other accessibility issues that I haven't
thought about. I did think today
Donna Jones wrote:
... I'm afraid the budget is eaten up by the PR firm and so the NP is
feeling badly that I'm in the position, once again, of donating a
lot of my time. Ideally, in their view, i think, they'd like for me
to say, yes, the PR's code is great and groovy and I'll continue
On 06/12/2005, at 4:48 PM, Peter J. Farrell wrote:
In the end, I felt very used as a volunteer. I recommend that
anybody who volunteers for a non-profit, discuss ownership of code/
designs when you volunteer. I was happy that I was able put a co-
copyright on the website and in files. If
Peter J. Farrell wrote:
Donna Jones wrote:
... I'm afraid the budget is eaten up by the PR firm and so the NP is
feeling badly that I'm in the position, once again, of donating a
lot of my time. Ideally, in their view, i think, they'd like for me
to say, yes, the PR's code is great and
57 matches
Mail list logo
