[WSG] CSS selector builder
Got this from a friend. it comes in handy as I am taking a CSS 2.1 class right now and the first and second week assignments are selectors. http://disruptive-innovations.com/zoo/selectorBuilder/ selectorBuilder.xul It can only open in Firefox by the way. tee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE MAC just won't play ball!
Thanks, Christain. I didn't think of doing that. Adam On 9/24/05, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the problem here might have to do with the fact that your XHTML is invalid. Please run every page through the validator and fix all the errors. There are definitely elements on every page that have not been closed, and I think they are causing all the problems. On 9/24/05, Adam Morris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: HELP! I've just done a site for http://www.charismalab.com. Everything is great for Windows PC, Firefox, Safari BUT the client is looking at the site on her Mac OS 9 IE 5 and it's not right. I've use the import to use a separate style sheet which helped massively but there are some things that I just can't seem to make work! I've downloaded the classic mac IE and can't see what she sees .eg. apparently, the nav line on the bottom of each page breaks off and starts a new line (!) and I've given up on trying to make the wrapper stretch 100% so I'm going to simply give each page a separate wrapper and give it a fixed length, but things still aren't right... can ANYone see where I'm going wrong??? the mac ie css is http://www.charismalab.com/ie51.cssThanks... Adam -- ADAM x
RE: [WSG] Using CSS for Flash backgrounds
'And I agree Sam, having movement like that behind text is one of the worst things you can do.' I think that was meant as an example. If this trick is used in a more ambiant way it could be really useful. Maybe just have some image substitution for opera until a solution is found. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsletter!
Just got this from a Killersites.com, what do you think of the article The Web Standards Lie: How the Web Standards movement has gone too far.? From: Stefan Mischook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 26 September 2005 7:37 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsletter! Welcome to the Killersites.com newsletter. Hello everyone! I've been on a roll lately - I guess I don't have much else to do? :) Before I go on, if you're a beginner (in web design,) you should do my tutorial: http://www.how-to-build-websites.com/ - - For you 'old pros', I've written my most controversialarticle in a couple of years! Thisone is going to tick off nerds all over the world! Check it out: The Web Standards Lie: How the Web Standards movement has gone too far. URL: http://www.killersites.com/blog/2005/silly-nerds-the-web-standards-are-for-browsers/ CIAO, Stefan ARTICLE ARCHIVE This is an archive of my past articles and newsletters- there's a lot of stuff for you to learn from. http://www.killersites.com/articles/articlesHome.htm#web_design05 THE FREE WEBSITE MONITOR Tens of thousands of websites go down everyday, that's just the nature of the web. If your website goes down, shouldn't you be the first one to know and not your clients? You can start monitoring your website(s) today- it's free! http://www.killersites.com/siteMonitor/siteMonitor.jsp BEGINNERS TUTORIAL ON WEB DESIGN I created this website for total beginners: http://www.how-to-build-websites.com/ WEB DESIGN FORUMS We have a very active community of people ready to answer questions. http://www.killersites.com/mvnforum/mvnforum/index That's it for now. Thanks, Stefan Mischook --To Unsubscribe, please click here.
Re: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsletter!
Ignore it, its a troll john On 26/09/2005, at 7:44 PM, Craig Rippon wrote: Just got this from a Killersites.com, what do you think of the article The Web Standards Lie: How the Web Standards movement has gone too far. ? From: Stefan Mischook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 26 September 2005 7:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsletter! Welcome to the Killersites.com newsletter. Hello everyone! I've been on a roll lately - I guess I don't have much else to do? :) Before I go on, if you're a beginner (in web design,) you should do my tutorial: http://www.how-to-build-websites.com/ - - For you 'old pros', I've written my most controversial article in a couple of years! This one is going to tick off nerds all over the world! Check it out: The Web Standards Lie: How the Web Standards movement has gone too far. URL: http://www.killersites.com/blog/2005/silly-nerds-the-web- standards-are-for-browsers/ CIAO, Stefan ARTICLE ARCHIVE This is an archive of my past articles and newsletters - there's a lot of stuff for you to learn from. http://www.killersites.com/articles/articlesHome.htm#web_design05 THE FREE WEBSITE MONITOR Tens of thousands of websites go down everyday, that's just the nature of the web. If your website goes down, shouldn't you be the first one to know and not your clients? You can start monitoring your website(s) today - it's free! http://www.killersites.com/siteMonitor/siteMonitor.jsp BEGINNERS TUTORIAL ON WEB DESIGN I created this website for total beginners: http://www.how-to-build-websites.com/ WEB DESIGN FORUMS We have a very active community of people ready to answer questions. http://www.killersites.com/mvnforum/mvnforum/index That's it for now. Thanks, Stefan Mischook -- To Unsubscribe, please click here. John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Extending xhtml strict to include frameset and target
Well Martin, I got to the conclusion that there is no standard way to get rid of thespace bitween the two frames in a standard way: cellspacing=0 is out of xhtml, and no css style will take away that space, so out with the frames, I'll make the header a php include. As for the extending issue, I still want to know how it works, so I'll study it, thank you! Best regards, Tank you all, Isabel Santos On 9/26/05, Martin Heiden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Olá Isabel,you should try to get rid of the frames and use the strict doctype.Don't change the overall structure of the site and nor users neither search engines will be upset with the redesign ;-)Like Christian mentioned you could use a php include for the header.then use ids on the body tag to highlight navigation via css. Thatsaves a lot of headaches and gives the user a much better experience than the actual site. But it would probably better to redesign thenavigation structure as well and to add some more levels...If you still want to extend the dtd, use XHTML 1.1 and modify thedriver. (You should serve it as application+xml, but I won't think to much about that, even if it isn't conform with standards).To do that:1.) Download the driver: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/xhtml11_dtd.html#a_xhtml11_driver 2.) Modify it.3.) Let the Doctype point at your custom driver and add your modifications to the description.I'd choose the php include way.And please, don't let it blink so much ;-) Boa sorte!Martin**The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help**
RE: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsletter!
-Original Message- From: Craig Rippon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 26 September 2005 7:44 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsletter! Just got this from a Killersites.com, what do you think of the article The Web Standards Lie: How the Web Standards movement has gone too far. http://www.killersites.com/newsletters/lt/t_go.php?i=10e=MTI zNDM=l=http://www.killersites.com/blog/2005/silly-nerds-the- web-standards-are-for-browsers/ ? I agree with him in the point that some people take Web Standards way too far. Just think of the endless discussions on what the semantically correct way is to mark up breadcrumbs. As if the world would find its end if I decided to mark up my breadcrumbs in p's instead of ul's or ol's or dt's... However, the guy who wrote the article doesn't really have a clue what he is talking about. He seems to be trying to attack Web Standards just for the sake of opening his mouth. There is a huge difference between using tables and using floats, but he obviously does not get that. The article he quoted (by Vincent Flanders) makes a much better point: don't believe Web Standards, Usability and tableless CSS is the ultimate way to create a fantastic website. It's tools, nothing more. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsl etter!
I think he's really just trying to stir up something controversial and attract people to his site. Surely anyone who was really serious about their own reputation and business would actually think about what they were saying, and research their point(less) before posting it... wouldn't they? -Original Message- From: Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 26 September 2005 8:44 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsletter! -Original Message- From: Craig Rippon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 26 September 2005 7:44 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsletter! Just got this from a Killersites.com, what do you think of the article The Web Standards Lie: How the Web Standards movement has gone too far. http://www.killersites.com/newsletters/lt/t_go.php?i=10e=MTI zNDM=l=http://www.killersites.com/blog/2005/silly-nerds-the- web-standards-are-for-browsers/ ? I agree with him in the point that some people take Web Standards way too far. Just think of the endless discussions on what the semantically correct way is to mark up breadcrumbs. As if the world would find its end if I decided to mark up my breadcrumbs in p's instead of ul's or ol's or dt's... However, the guy who wrote the article doesn't really have a clue what he is talking about. He seems to be trying to attack Web Standards just for the sake of opening his mouth. There is a huge difference between using tables and using floats, but he obviously does not get that. The article he quoted (by Vincent Flanders) makes a much better point: don't believe Web Standards, Usability and tableless CSS is the ultimate way to create a fantastic website. It's tools, nothing more. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] RE: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
hi, What is the background CSS hack for Saffari on a Mac? http://jeronimo.net.au see example. Jez. -Original Message- From: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 8:56 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org It seams I've been replying to list members and not to the list itself, and including the wrong quotations. I changed my subscription from pop mail to http to be able to read all of them more easily, am still not used to this label's thing. Since the discussions do not add anything new to the list I will not repeat them, unless I find some miraculous solution. Anyway, please forgive my mistake, and of course, no need to reply this one. Thank you all, best regards, Isabel Santos ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] CSS validator updated?
Has the CSS validator (the W3C one) just become a whole lot more pedantic? Sites that previously came out with a clean slate now throw up lots of warnings. I mean.. You'd expect sites made by people in the Features section of the WSG site to be perfect. I checked a few of them at random. All had warnings, some only a dozen or so, others had a long long list. Not that I want to single anyone out, but one would have thought Westciv would be OK. Or maxdesign. But no, even the W3C site gets a long list of warnings. Has the validator become too pedantic all of a sudden or was it too lenient before? Should we ignore the warnings? Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] blockquote in screen viewer!
Lynx is text-only in the really old computer sense of the word. It can't display italics, only different text colors and background colors. This isn't a problem though. Displaying blockquotes as indented italics is just a popular way for graphical browsers to display them by default. It's not required or anything. If having your blockquotes in italics is important for the way you want your site to look, I recommend specifying that in your CSS. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS validator updated?
The CSS validator has a few new bugs mentioned recently on here. It's throwing errors where it shouldn't be, like on some integers that don't have .0 after them. Hopefully it'll get fixed soon. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsletter!
What a laugh. I especially love this quote... "Since when are using Floats for page-level layout, semantically correct? Floats are designed to float images within the context of a paragraph. Yet many designs that are supposedly Web Standards compliant, use floats to create page divisions." Here is just one very quick source from the W3C that justifies the use of floats for positioning of a box of content... http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/visuren.html#floats and goes on to say what the float property can be applied to... http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/visuren.html#float-position So I guess his claim that "floats are designed to float images within the context of a paragraph" may need a little more research. - Original Message - From: Craig Rippon To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 7:44 PM Subject: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsletter! Just got this from a Killersites.com, what do you think of the article The Web Standards Lie: How the Web Standards movement has gone too far.? From: Stefan Mischook [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 26 September 2005 7:37 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsletter! Welcome to the Killersites.com newsletter. Hello everyone! I've been on a roll lately - I guess I don't have much else to do? :) Before I go on, if you're a beginner (in web design,) you should do my tutorial: http://www.how-to-build-websites.com/ - - For you 'old pros', I've written my most controversialarticle in a couple of years! Thisone is going to tick off nerds all over the world! Check it out: The Web Standards Lie: How the Web Standards movement has gone too far. URL: http://www.killersites.com/blog/2005/silly-nerds-the-web-standards-are-for-browsers/ CIAO, Stefan ARTICLE ARCHIVE This is an archive of my past articles and newsletters- there's a lot of stuff for you to learn from. http://www.killersites.com/articles/articlesHome.htm#web_design05 THE FREE WEBSITE MONITOR Tens of thousands of websites go down everyday, that's just the nature of the web. If your website goes down, shouldn't you be the first one to know and not your clients? You can start monitoring your website(s) today- it's free! http://www.killersites.com/siteMonitor/siteMonitor.jsp BEGINNERS TUTORIAL ON WEB DESIGN I created this website for total beginners: http://www.how-to-build-websites.com/ WEB DESIGN FORUMS We have a very active community of people ready to answer questions. http://www.killersites.com/mvnforum/mvnforum/index That's it for now. Thanks, Stefan Mischook --To Unsubscribe, please click here.
Re: [WSG] computer arts mag article/review
I thought you were being serious :p Im considering doing a BA course in Design atm personally. Even with my 7 years experience Im getting nowhere. I am talented which makes it more annoying. On 26 Sep 2005, at 02:07, Duncan Heal wrote: Thanks but I think my BA in Design Studies and 8 years media experience just might be enough:) Interesting the whole qualifications vrs. portfolio thing. Personally, as a small business owner, qualifications wouldn't mean a hell of a lot - I'd put more emphasis on what work they can do. Being in a provincial New Zealand town does change things though - not too many IT qualifications around here! I just wish I had more of those cheques. And, yeah, who *are* the top designers?! On 26/09/2005, at 12:24 PM, Zach Inglis wrote: If you're that worried about qualifications. There are university courses etc. I've found a lot of firms look first at qualifcations before portfolio. Silly but it happens. On 26 Sep 2005, at 01:13, Nick Gleitzman wrote: On 26 Sep 2005, at 9:50 AM, Duncan Heal wrote: Incidentally, is there some sort of 'real' designer certificate I can get?! ;) Yup, it's called a cheque from a satisfied client. N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Using CSS for Flash backgrounds
Jon Dawson wrote: http://www.jomni.com/sandbox/flash_bg/ Not sure I know what it's supposed to look like. Opera 8.5 is presenting 3 lines of text on a gray background (default, I think), and a moving white box behind the text. http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/flashbgnd_op85_win2k.png Opera 7.54 show text but no moving box. Firefox 1.5b1 shows nothing but those two W3C buttons. Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] RE: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Title: RE: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Please remove me from your list. I cancelled last week and got confirmation but for some reason I'm still getting emails. Thank you, -Original Message- From: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org] Sent: Mon 9/26/2005 2:03 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org WEB STANDARDS GROUP MAIL LIST DIGEST If you have suddenly been thrown into digest mode and don't know why, it's because your address was bouncing for at least 5 posts. To revert to a standard subscription, please log into the website - http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/ - and select Edit your login details and mail list subscriptions from the members home page and change the selection toFull WSG list. You can change your subscription at any time and you can now select a different email address for WSG and WSGCMS list posts. You can also suspend email from these lists. To unsubscribe entirely and leave the group, please log into the website and select Unsubscribe from the members home page. You can reach Russ and Peter the list managers at info@webboy.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than WSG Digest There are some problems with the Digest version. Our apologies for this. It is the way that SmarterMail handles it so that HTML email and attachments are not put into the digest as source code. We are STILL talking with the software developers about this.
[WSG] RE: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Title: RE: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Please remove me from your list. I cancelled last week and got confirmation but for some reason I'm still getting emails. Thank you, -Original Message- From: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org] Sent: Mon 9/26/2005 2:03 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org WEB STANDARDS GROUP MAIL LIST DIGEST If you have suddenly been thrown into digest mode and don't know why, it's because your address was bouncing for at least 5 posts. To revert to a standard subscription, please log into the website - http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/ - and select Edit your login details and mail list subscriptions from the members home page and change the selection toFull WSG list. You can change your subscription at any time and you can now select a different email address for WSG and WSGCMS list posts. You can also suspend email from these lists. To unsubscribe entirely and leave the group, please log into the website and select Unsubscribe from the members home page. You can reach Russ and Peter the list managers at info@webboy.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than WSG Digest There are some problems with the Digest version. Our apologies for this. It is the way that SmarterMail handles it so that HTML email and attachments are not put into the digest as source code. We are STILL talking with the software developers about this.
Re: [WSG] RE: digest for ADMIN
ADMIN Please remember that these sorts of request should not be sent out the entire list, they should be sent to info@webboy.net Sending messages of this sort out to the list is akin to standing up in the middle of an opera and telling the entire audience that you need to go to the toilet. :) Russ Please remove me from your list. I cancelled last week and got confirmation but for some reason I'm still getting emails. Thank you, ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Using CSS for Flash backgrounds
The only problem with this is sometimes when you right-click (if you ever need to right click) you get the Flash right-click options. You might also get certain Flash cursors instead of the default browser cursors. On 9/26/05, kvnmcwebn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 'And I agree Sam, having movement like that behind text is one of the worstthings you can do.'I think that was meant as an example.If this trick is used in a more ambiant way it could be really useful. Maybe just have some image substitution for opera until a solution is found.**The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help**
Re: [WSG] computer arts mag article/review
Zach Inglis napsal(a) dne 26.9.2005 14:14: Im considering doing a BA course in Design atm personally. Even with my 7 years experience Im getting nowhere. I am talented which makes it more annoying. Eg. I am considering leaving the BA studies (Multimedia Design) to do something more effective in real world :D IMHO the BA itself won't push you somewhere further -- if you're getting nowhere the school won't probably help directing you. At least you don't have your bashfulness as an obstacle :D Joseph R. B. Taylor napsal(a) dne 26.9.2005 3:52: As a one-man show, I disagree with that statement as I find it advantageous for me to do it all as even in the early design stages I'm thinking about how this design can be used in a page most effectively and most easily coded up. Yup. And the communication overhead and possible misunderstandings vanish. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsletter!
I can never believe that people like that still exist. Even when I see it, I find it hard to believe. It isn't even worth contesting it. No point arguing with someone who has already ignored the facts.
Re: Re: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsletter!
Hello, I am in Sydney this week for a conference and will be back on the 3rd October. I will check my email regularly, but for urgent requests please SMS me a summary of the problem and send me though a detailed email. Please contact Haymarket for the mobile number to send the SMS. Regards, Adrian THIS IS AN AUTOMATED RESPONSE ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsl etter!
Hi, Just to put the cat amongst the peigons - some of the points raised are valid IMHO. and by the by so is the mark up. I think he is off mark on the use of styles My position is about temperance - moderation ‘reality in the field’ and not some ivory-tower specification - the reality and work arounds required to compensate for differences in implementation CSS Hacks for example The Web Standards have yet to be properly implemented in the majority of the browsers BEING USED - namely Internet Explorer this is partly why I dub IE inferior explorer, naughty-scape a fraise I seldom use since netscape 4.X is a beast rarely encountered in the wild Since when are using Floats for page-level layout, semantically correct? I disagree with him here, since floating is applied by style and is separate from content I think this is a contracdiction since previouly To not use CSS - rather I am saying to use it when it makes sense… and in the case of floating to style the layout I would say that this is appropriate use of style - using it here makes sense his contracdiction continues margins... to create page-level layouts. Again, like floats, this is semantically incorrect, just like HTML tables the point of style - the junk/old skool use is shims / transparent gif - I don't like such sites even when I make 'em Some times designers can procrastinate pontificate over semantics (and many other things) delaying the sites completion inflating the cost. Rob Wilson http://www.websitesinbusiness.co.uk Says: September 26th, 2005 at 3:52 am http://www.killersites.com/blog/2005/silly-nerds-the-web-standards-are-for-browsers/#comment-33 The real point lost in the standards debate is that everyone just wants things to work properly and consistently. my clients do, I do, visitors to sites I make do Mac IE such a pain, with standards css layouts - Hacks ahoy me lad! Win IE - what a pain Producing visual consistantly is a long road with tables+shims Using CSS I find things always crop up. odd spaces here and there - a short road, can become a long road. Marco http://www.i-marco.nl/weblog/ Says: September 26th, 2005 at 4:56 am http://www.killersites.com/blog/2005/silly-nerds-the-web-standards-are-for-browsers/#comment-34 - lighter in amount of code - easy to read on other devices than PC’s with browsers - more accessible - much better search engine optimized from the ground up I agree with this also, its a pain when formating gone bad in a browser often IE Mac/Win Rooting out the problem in the CSS to hack compliance is tedious stressful client wants it done yesterday Joshua Street http://www.joahua.com/blog/ Says: September 26th, 2005 at 5:05 am http://www.killersites.com/blog/2005/silly-nerds-the-web-standards-are-for-browsers/#comment-35 CSS bears no meaning, it’s just a presentational hook explains where he is off base on the CSS - its the hack thats madness and often more tricky than table + shims Clients see competitiors sites with tables and when they see them on any browser they are consistent (sometimes consistantly bad!! IMHO but consistent Stefan Mischook http://www.killersites.com Says: September 26th, 2005 at 10:47 am http://www.killersites.com/blog/2005/silly-nerds-the-web-standards-are-for-browsers/#comment-43 *What is broken (in a pratical sense,) with the Web Standards?* 1. 60% to 80% of the browsers being used are buggy when it comes to CSSP techniques we have to use. 2. The model for positioning with CSS is now weak. I can’t wait for the CSS3 multi-column spec http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-multicol/to come of age. but browser uptake will be somewhere behind. and putting a message for users this site looks better in a standards compliant browser is just as annnoying (to the user in turn the site owner) as this site looks better in ie since this is a discussion list I thought we might discuss the points atb - Sam Herrod, Lisa wrote: I think he's really just trying to stir up something controversial and attract people to his site. Surely anyone who was really serious about their own reputation and business would actually think about what they were saying, and research their point(less) before posting it... wouldn't they? -Original Message- From: Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 26 September 2005 8:44 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsletter! -Original Message- From: Craig Rippon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 26 September 2005 7:44 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsletter! Just got this from a Killersites.com, what do you think of the article The Web Standards Lie: How the Web Standards movement has gone too far. http://www.killersites.com/newsletters/lt/t_go.php?i=10e=MTI
[WSG] IFR- what is the latest version?
Hi All I have a quick question. I am looking for the latest version of using flash to replace header text. Is this the best approach? My feeble mind remembers an improved version out there in standardista-space. http://www.shauninman.com/plete/2004/04/ifr-revisited-and-revised Thanks Ted www.tdrake.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IFR- what is the latest version?
Drake, Ted C. wrote: Hi All I have a quick question. I am looking for the latest version of using flash to replace header text. Is this the best approach? My feeble mind remembers an improved version out there in standardista-space. http://www.shauninman.com/plete/2004/04/ifr-revisited-and-revised You might be looking for sIFR (Scalable Inman Flash Replacement). http://www.mikeindustries.com/sifr/ -- Best regards, Michael Wilson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IFR- what is the latest version?
Any site using sIFR in FF cramps the text into an unreadable mass, the flash is not used and I am left with illegible text I have flash block installed, sIFR detects flash block and does not display the flash. The css leaves he text unreadable is this only me? Drake, Ted C. wrote: Hi All I have a quick question. I am looking for the latest version of using flash to replace header text. Is this the best approach? My feeble mind remembers an improved version out there in standardista-space. http://www.shauninman.com/plete/2004/04/ifr-revisited-and-revised Thanks Ted www.tdrake.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsl etter!
Ya know, I'm by all means no professional web designer, nor do I design sites for anyone but myself... and my sites, at best, are only small personal websites where I can display the few pixel and photoshop goodies that I create in my spare time, blab a little about myself, my goals, and how my days go, and give little dedications to the people/causes that I admire and believe strongly in. However, even I try my hardest to employ web standards to the best of my ability. Since most of the visitors to my site(s) are merely just friends and loved ones, all of whom I've gotten to use Firefox and ditch IE all together, my logs show that I only have 15% of visitors who use IE to view my site (comprised both of Win and Mac versions), .8% use Safari, another 5% is listed as unknown... The rest of my viewers use Firefox.. Needless to say, I don't let myself become overly stressed out if there's a pixel worth of space between two elements that shouldn't be there in IE. Nor do I bother digging through tons of articles and tutorials on which hacks to use for IE Mac, and I don't bother at all with Netscape 4x. It's just not worth the time and energy to do all of that for the measley existance of the few sites that I own. In that same sense... I do agree with some of his thoughts... while the reasonings might not all be true, I have to say that there are quite a few people out there who think that you're going to go to website Purgatory if you use a table in a layout (which, by all means, I do use tables to display the Live Journal Icons I create... 4 to a row, several rows until there are no more icons to show), and I might even employ the use if Iframes, or god forbid, a splash page. And, if the mood strikes and I create something nifty looking in Photoshop, I have no problem whatsoever slicing it up properly and throwing it together in a table if I can't figure out how to make it work using CSS (which I've had to do on a few occasions). I suppose the biggest point of his article was that if it works best for you, then use it. But don't bring yourself to tears or go bald from pulling out your hair if the site your developing doesn't target that sort of audience, etc. Obviously, Web Standards Compliance has become the latest and greatest buzz word on the web, or I wouldn't have even discovered it. (It was actually the CSS Zen Garden that got me interested in learning about it). If you need your site to be accessible to all people, or your client wants the ability to change the look of the site by only editing a mere css file or two - then that's great! Web Standards are definitely for you. If your audience consists of about 50 people whom you know personally and talk to nearly every day, and you're lucky to get 1 hit that isn't yourself per day - if you can't figure out how to do something you WANT to do with web standards, there's no need to pull your hair out and get in a frenzy over it. I think that's why he said Use CSS when it makes sense. But then again, I'm just a 21 year old girl, who does all of this in my spare time as a hobby... I might be reading it a bit different than most of you, as you guys are all in this for the long haul. sam sherlock wrote: Hi, Just to put the cat amongst the peigons - some of the points raised are valid IMHO. and by the by so is the mark up. I think he is off mark on the use of styles My position is about temperance - moderation ‘reality in the field’ and not some ivory-tower specification - the reality and work arounds required to compensate for differences in implementation CSS Hacks for example The Web Standards have yet to be properly implemented in the majority of the browsers BEING USED - namely Internet Explorer this is partly why I dub IE inferior explorer, naughty-scape a fraise I seldom use since netscape 4.X is a beast rarely encountered in the wild Since when are using Floats for page-level layout, semantically correct? I disagree with him here, since floating is applied by style and is separate from content I think this is a contracdiction since previouly To not use CSS - rather I am saying to use it when it makes sense… and in the case of floating to style the layout I would say that this is appropriate use of style - using it here makes sense his contracdiction continues margins... to create page-level layouts. Again, like floats, this is semantically incorrect, just like HTML tables the point of style - the junk/old skool use is shims / transparent gif - I don't like such sites even when I make 'em Some times designers can procrastinate pontificate over semantics (and many other things) delaying the sites completion inflating the cost. Rob Wilson http://www.websitesinbusiness.co.uk Says: September 26th, 2005 at 3:52 am http://www.killersites.com/blog/2005/silly-nerds-the-web-standards-are-for-browsers/#comment-33 The real point lost in the standards debate is that
Re: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsl etter!
On 9/26/05, sam sherlock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi,Just to put the cat amongst the peigons - some of the points raised arevalid IMHO.Regardless of whether he has valid points or not, I think he is wrong from the start. Talk like this is part of the problem, not the solution. He's leading people who don't know about web design astray. They see this stuff and think zealots like me are wrong about standards. And that's all this guy is trying to do, undermine standards. I know some designers go overboard with CSS, and make it look bad, with hacks and multiply stylesheets and such... I'm an advocate of simplifying the design before hacking CSS... but sometimes it's a necessary evil. The blame should be on the browser manufacturers for not following standards, not on designers for following them. Even with CSS hacks and _javascript_ techniques, we are still better off than we were with tables and spacer gifs. Regardless of the issues, I know what it's like to encounter people like this. I have a classmate who attacked me out of the blue for my disdain of table layouts. Knowing that our web design class teaches standards, and that the upcoming week of lectures would cover CSS - positioning, I simply responded with Make sure you pay attention next week in class. The whole thing was very uncalled for, and the Teaching Assistant had to pull him away. Moral of the story: with people like this, you just have to point to the industry move towards standards and say, Make sure you pay attention.
Re: [WSG] Using CSS for Flash backgrounds
Christian Montoya wrote: The only problem with this is sometimes when you right-click (if you ever need to right click) you get the Flash right-click options. You might also get certain Flash cursors instead of the default browser cursors. On 9/26/05, *kvnmcwebn* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 'And I agree Sam, having movement like that behind text is one of the worst things you can do.' I think that was meant as an example. If this trick is used in a more ambiant way it could be really useful. Maybe just have some image substitution for opera until a solution is found. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** Definetley Flash cursosr are the best option to resolve this issue., ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Java (JSP) v .net for standard and accessibility
I have been lucky enough to work with a very experienced java programmer on the last few sites I have designed. I do all the front end, he does the database, application, CMS, security and e-commerce development. The experience has been very pleasurable because of the degree of separation we have achieved between the front and back ends that allows me to make the sites fully standards compatible. Any dymanic content spits out pure content with the bare minimum of markup necessary. I'm wondering how .net compares as I haven't had the chance yet to build a site with it? Regards, Stuart Sherwood www.re-entity.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
re: SPAM-LOW: [WSG] Java (JSP) v .net for standard and accessibility
Have you ever seen anything that microsoft makes that makes anything near compliant code? didnt think so If you are going to use .net and want complient code then you will spend a lot of time going back and tweaking the code to get it to comply. From: Stuart Sherwood [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 8:23 PMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: SPAM-LOW: [WSG] Java (JSP) v .net for standard and accessibilityI have been lucky enough to work with a very experienced java programmer on the last few sites I have designed. I do all the front end, he does the database, application, CMS, security and e-commerce development.The experience has been very pleasurable because of the degree of separation we have achieved between the front and back ends that allows me to make the sites fully standards compatible. Any dymanic content spits out pure content with the bare minimum of markup necessary.I'm wondering how .net compares as I haven't had the chance yet to build a site with it?Regards,Stuart Sherwoodwww.re-entity.com**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help**
[WSG] 2-Column Liquid Designs
Hi, I'm searching for inspiration for (2) liquid corporate designs. Would someone pass along a few URI's? Chris ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Java (JSP) v .net for standard and accessibility
Stuart, The out of box ASP.NET controls in v1.1 are really quite shocking. The out of box ASP.NET controls in v2 are XHTML compliant. (However this doesn't mean they are semantic.) However, the webforms concept (which uses all these drag n' drop controls) isn't very good when it comes to the separation of concerns approach that you're after. You probably want to look at the MonoRail project - http://www.castleproject.org/ which is basically a .NET version of Ruby on Rails. This is the framework used behind my sites like http://www.viavirtualearth.com/ which are semantic, compliant XHTML sites. Thanks, Tatham Oddie Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea www.fueladvance.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stuart Sherwood Sent: Tuesday, 27 September 2005 10:13 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Java (JSP) v .net for standard and accessibility I have been lucky enough to work with a very experienced java programmer on the last few sites I have designed. I do all the front end, he does the database, application, CMS, security and e-commerce development. The experience has been very pleasurable because of the degree of separation we have achieved between the front and back ends that allows me to make the sites fully standards compatible. Any dymanic content spits out pure content with the bare minimum of markup necessary. I'm wondering how .net compares as I haven't had the chance yet to build a site with it? Regards, Stuart Sherwood www.re-entity.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: SPAM-LOW: [WSG] Java (JSP) v .net for standard and accessibility
Not true you just need to know how to use it properly instead of Microsoft bashing. If you do want to use the built in controls and still get compliant markup, I can provide you with a really simple article on how to do so. Thanks, Tatham Oddie Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea www.fueladvance.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of csslist Sent: Tuesday, 27 September 2005 10:34 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: re: SPAM-LOW: [WSG] Java (JSP) v .net for standard and accessibility Have you ever seen anything that microsoft makes that makes anything near compliant code? didnt think so If you are going to use .net and want complient code then you will spend a lot of time going back and tweaking the code to get it to comply. From: Stuart Sherwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 8:23 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: SPAM-LOW: [WSG] Java (JSP) v .net for standard and accessibility I have been lucky enough to work with a very experienced java programmer on the last few sites I have designed. I do all the front end, he does the database, application, CMS, security and e-commerce development. The experience has been very pleasurable because of the degree of separation we have achieved between the front and back ends that allows me to make the sites fully standards compatible. Any dymanic content spits out pure content with the bare minimum of markup necessary. I'm wondering how .net compares as I haven't had the chance yet to build a site with it? Regards, Stuart Sherwood www.re-entity.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] 2-Column Liquid Designs
Perfect. http://liquid.rdpdesign.com has some very good professional sites listed. On 9/26/05, Chris Kennon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Hi,I'm searching for inspiration for (2) liquid corporate designs. Would someone pass along a few URI's?Chris**The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help**
Re: [WSG] Java (JSP) v .net for standard and accessibility
Stuart Sherwood wrote: I'm wondering how .net compares as I haven't had the chance yet to build a site with it? Current versions of ASP.Net have controls that favour IE over other browsers by using proprietary code (Eg. validation controls with Javascript use document.all). I think Microsoft have said they'll have XHTML compliance with .Net 2.0 but right now it's tag soup. The html is chosen by these controls differently for categories of browser, so asp:panel becomes a div for IE and a table for Firefox (you can override this, but it's the default behaviour). And the typical IDE, VS.Net, produces mediocre WYSIWYG HTML by default. Which leaves you with, - Using 3rd party controls which may be compliant. Eg, there are Ecmascript validation controls but they're not so popular and there are integration problems in VS.Net (not sure whose fault this is though). - Avoid or minimise the use of poorly written controls and instead write strings of html to the page, perhaps by using literal controls as stubs. - Using another framework that doesn't use the standard ASP.Net templating model. So yeah, it's pretty bad. -- .Matthew Cruickshank http://holloway.co.nz/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Using CSS for Flash backgrounds
I remember coming across a fix for Opera that uses _javascript_, I just don't remember where I saw it now. Sorry! Eileen Russell http://www.bytedreams.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon DawsonSent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 6:57 PMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Using CSS for Flash backgrounds Hello all,I read recently that it wasn't possible to have flash backgrounds so I thought I'd give it a go. Turns out it is possible but it won't work in Opera and I'm curious as to why it won't.http://www.jomni.com/sandbox/flash_bg/Any ideas?Thanks,Jon BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:;bytedreams ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) FN:bytedreams ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] REV:20050718T045116Z END:VCARD
RE: SPAM-LOW: [WSG] Java (JSP) v .net for standard and accessibility
wasnt bashing m$ was saying a FACT, you shouldnt have to use a 3rd party tool to get it right and your server-side lang shouldnt destroy your markup without user error. see other reply, the guy was right!! It does obviously favors ie and last i check ie and compliance werent on the same page. whats next? You gunna say frontpage writes complient code (if you know what you are doing) ;)~From: "Tatham Oddie \(Fuel Advance\)" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 9:09 PMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: SPAM-LOW: [WSG] Java (JSP) v .net for standard and accessibility Not true you just need to know how to use it properly instead of Microsoft bashing. If you do want to use the built in controls and still get compliant markup, I can provide you with a really simple article on how to do so.Thanks, Tatham Oddie Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea www.fueladvance.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of csslist Sent: Tuesday, 27 September 2005 10:34 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: re: SPAM-LOW: [WSG] Java (JSP) v .net for standard and accessibility Have you ever seen anything that microsoft makes that makes anything near compliant code? didnt think so If you are going to use .net and want complient code then you will spend a lot of time going back and tweaking the code to get it to comply. From: Stuart Sherwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 8:23 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: SPAM-LOW: [WSG] Java (JSP) v .net for standard and accessibility I have been lucky enough to work with a very experienced java programmer on the last few sites I have designed. I do all the front end, he does the database, application, CMS, security and e-commerce development. The experience has been very pleasurable because of the degree of separation we have achieved between the front and back ends that allows me to make the sites fully standards compatible. Any dymanic content spits out pure content with the bare minimum of markup necessary. I'm wondering how .net compares as I haven't had the chance yet to build a site with it? Regards, Stuart Sherwood www.re-entity.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Java (JSP) v .net for standard and accessibility
Not only that, visual studio actually changes valid code into invalid code. For example t'll remove closing LI tags and capitalise all your tags. I know that, having tried to get a css/xhtml site with MCMS, at this stage if you want to make a standards compliant web app C#.NET is way more trouble than it's worth. Myself I quite like ruby on rials, but I'd go with what ever your already comfortable with. Jake On 27/9/2005, Matthew Cruickshank [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stuart Sherwood wrote: I'm wondering how .net compares as I haven't had the chance yet to build a site with it? Current versions of ASP.Net have controls that favour IE over other browsers by using proprietary code (Eg. validation controls with Javascript use document.all). I think Microsoft have said they'll have XHTML compliance with .Net 2.0 but right now it's tag soup. The html is chosen by these controls differently for categories of browser, so asp:panel becomes a div for IE and a table for Firefox (you can override this, but it's the default behaviour). And the typical IDE, VS.Net, produces mediocre WYSIWYG HTML by default. Which leaves you with, - Using 3rd party controls which may be compliant. Eg, there are Ecmascript validation controls but they're not so popular and there are integration problems in VS.Net (not sure whose fault this is though). - Avoid or minimise the use of poorly written controls and instead write strings of html to the page, perhaps by using literal controls as stubs. - Using another framework that doesn't use the standard ASP.Net templating model. So yeah, it's pretty bad. -- .Matthew Cruickshank http://holloway.co.nz/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Using CSS for Flash backgrounds
or so sublte its unnoticable and it increases the overall complexity of the site SS kvnmcwebn wrote: 'And I agree Sam, having movement like that behind text is one of the worst things you can do.' I think that was meant as an example. If this trick is used in a more ambiant way it could be really useful. Maybe just have some image substitution for opera until a solution is found. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] validation error - blockquote
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: You need to have a block level container inside your blockquote...can't just have pure content. So, for instance: blockquote phere's the quote/p /blockquote While that's true for XHTML, it's not the case for HTML. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Java (JSP) v .net for standard and accessibility
It is possible to configure VS.NET to leave your HTML alone: Tools Options Text Editor HTML/XML and have a look at 'Format' and 'Html Specific' panels As far as ASP.NET goes, the most annoying feature built into the framework is its insistence on serving up different markup to different browsers. That said, I note Stuart qualified his question by saying he had worked with an experienced Java programmer. Similarly, a good .NET programmer who is aware of the issues and concerned about web standards will also be able to help you achieve compliance. I have worked with ASP.NET for over three years now, and it is possible to get at least XHTML Transitional compliance consistently once you know what the issues are. On 9/27/05, Jake Badger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not only that, visual studio actually changes valid code into invalid code. For example t'll remove closing LI tags and capitalise all your tags. I know that, having tried to get a css/xhtml site with MCMS, at this stage if you want to make a standards compliant web app C#.NET is way more trouble than it's worth... Jake ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Java (JSP) v .net for standard and accessibility
Jachin Sheehy wrote: That said, I note Stuart qualified his question by saying he had worked with an experienced Java programmer. Similarly, a good .NET programmer who is aware of the issues and concerned about web standards will also be able to help you achieve compliance. I have worked with ASP.NET for over three years now, and it is possible to get at least XHTML Transitional compliance consistently once you know what the issues are. Yeah, I agree with this. I've used ASP.Net since 2001 and it's possible to produce good code but that will require knowing a lot about its internals (Eg, how VS.Net rewrites HTML, how datagrids don't have genuine headings, linkbuttons don't work in old browsers, how the viewstate isn't xhtml, etc). Because there's such an abstraction between the controls and their html it's difficult to fix too, and the html may be part of the dll rather than an editable text file (to get xhtml it's easiest to so something like http://www.codeproject.com/aspnet/ASPNET2XHTML.asp ) Joel on Software has an article that mentions ASP.Net, http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/LeakyAbstractions.html ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] WE05 - who's going?
So who's going to the Web Essnetials conference this week? Anyone interested in a group catch-up? I thought it might be nice to put some faces to all these names. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] WE05 - who's going?
That's a great idea, I'd love to put some faces to names/weird user names :) Lisa -Original Message- From: Webmaster [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 27 September 2005 2:19 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] WE05 - who's going? So who's going to the Web Essnetials conference this week? Anyone interested in a group catch-up? I thought it might be nice to put some faces to all these names. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WE05 - who's going?
I'm going. Will be doing a little 'live-bloggin' on http://notinteractive.com/ and more professional coverage on http://leftjustified.net/ I'll be up there from Wednesday night and would be keen to catch up with other WSG members for some warm up drinks :) Photo: http://static.flickr.com/18/24186038_02e84b4e96_m.jpg Ph: 0408 908 135 All intelectual interaction is warmly welcomed; try to sell me something and I'll make hell ;P See you there, Andrew. --- http://leftjustified.net/ On 9/27/05, Webmaster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So who's going to the Web Essnetials conference this week? Anyone interested in a group catch-up? I thought it might be nice to put some faces to all these names.
Re: [WSG] WE05 - who's going?
EDIT: Whoops, that first URL should be http://notinteractive.wordpress.com/ I own notinteractive.com too, but I can't find the FTP details atm and there's no redirect to the wordpress sub-domain... Good thing I don't do this stuff for a living! Oh, wait a minute 0_o On 9/27/05, Andrew Krespanis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm going. Will be doing a little 'live-bloggin' on http://notinteractive.com/ and more professional coverage on http://leftjustified.net/ I'll be up there from Wednesday night and would be keen to catch up with other WSG members for some warm up drinks :) Photo: http://static.flickr.com/18/24186038_02e84b4e96_m.jpg Ph: 0408 908 135 All intelectual interaction is warmly welcomed; try to sell me something and I'll make hell ;P See you there, Andrew. --- http://leftjustified.net/ On 9/27/05, Webmaster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So who's going to the Web Essnetials conference this week? Anyone interested in a group catch-up? I thought it might be nice to put some faces to all these names. -- --- http://leftjustified.net/ Lotus Notes is like radiation -- the full impact of its damage won't be obvious for generations; by which time those exposed will have passed on their malformed DNA. ;)
RE: [WSG] WE05 - who's going?
Did you come out last year Kazuhito? I remember someone from Japan came out last year. :) lisa -Original Message- From: Kazuhito Kidachi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 27 September 2005 2:50 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] WE05 - who's going? 2005/9/27, Webmaster [EMAIL PROTECTED]: So who's going to the Web Essnetials conference this week? +1 from Japan. If you find me at official or final party, please talk to me - my English is not good, though! -- Kazuhito Kidachi mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] WE05 - who's going?
Wow, and I thought five of us coming from Perth was keen...Japan is even further afield. :) Be good to meet you all - should we have a secret handshake? :) I guess the drinks on Thursday night will uncover us all. Maybe someone can shout out and rustle everyone to put their hand up if they are 'on list'? Cheers Miles. Chairperson, Port 80 www.port80.asn.au -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Kazuhito Kidachi Sent: Tuesday, 27 September 2005 12:50 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] WE05 - who's going? 2005/9/27, Webmaster [EMAIL PROTECTED]: So who's going to the Web Essnetials conference this week? +1 from Japan. If you find me at official or final party, please talk to me - my English is not good, though! -- Kazuhito Kidachi mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] WE05 - who's going?
I'm going, see you there. Grant -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Webmaster Sent: Tuesday, 27 September 2005 2:19 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] WE05 - who's going? So who's going to the Web Essnetials conference this week? Anyone interested in a group catch-up? I thought it might be nice to put some faces to all these names. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain privileged information or confidential information or both. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it and notify the sender. ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] WE05 - who's going?
At least three of us from Darwin are coming yahoo big city, here we come You'll know us by our thongs and singlets heh. :) :) *** Helen Rysavy Web Designer Teaching Learning Development Group Charles Darwin University, Northern Territory 0909 Tel: 8946 7779 Mobile: 0403 290 842 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] CRICOS Provider No: 00300K *** Miles Burke [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent by: cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [WSG] WE05 - who's going? dsgroup.org 27/09/2005 02:26 PM Please respond to wsg Wow, and I thought five of us coming from Perth was keen...Japan is even further afield. :) Be good to meet you all - should we have a secret handshake? :) I guess the drinks on Thursday night will uncover us all. Maybe someone can shout out and rustle everyone to put their hand up if they are 'on list'? Cheers Miles. Chairperson, Port 80 www.port80.asn.au -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Kazuhito Kidachi Sent: Tuesday, 27 September 2005 12:50 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] WE05 - who's going? 2005/9/27, Webmaster [EMAIL PROTECTED]: So who's going to the Web Essnetials conference this week? +1 from Japan. If you find me at official or final party, please talk to me - my English is not good, though! -- Kazuhito Kidachi mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WE05 - who's going?
Hi Lisa, 2005/9/27, Herrod, Lisa [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Did you come out last year Kazuhito? I remember someone from Japan came out last year. :) Yes I did. WE05 gives me my 2nd chance to go down under! :-) -- Kazuhito Kidachi mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WE05 - who's going?
I'll be there http://www.flickr.com/photos/webessentials/44913770/ I'll be bloging nowhere, just representing my department. Lucky there isn't a spot the fed contest like they have at defcon. On 27/9/2005, Andrew Krespanis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm going. Will be doing a little 'live-bloggin' on http://notinteractive.com/ and more professional coverage on http://leftjustified.net/ I'll be up there from Wednesday night and would be keen to catch up with other WSG members for some warm up drinks :) Photo: http://static.flickr.com/18/24186038_02e84b4e96_m.jpg Ph: 0408 908 135 All intelectual interaction is warmly welcomed; try to sell me something and I'll make hell ;P See you there, Andrew. --- http://leftjustified.net/ On 9/27/05, Webmaster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So who's going to the Web Essnetials conference this week? Anyone interested in a group catch-up? I thought it might be nice to put some faces to all these names. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WE05 - who's going?
How about a secret password that you have to sneak into the first 60 seconds of meeting someone :)..? Or how about everyone interested just bites the bullet and posts their photo contact details like I just did? This secret handshake/signalling in crowded room nonsense isn't going to work. We either need know who we're looking for or decide on a place and time to meet up. -Andrew :) N���.�Ȩ�X���+��i�� n�Z�֫v�+��h��y�m�쵩�j�l��.f���.�ץ�w�q(��b��(��,�)උazX����)��
RE: [WSG] WE05 - who's going?
oh spoil sport! can't we do both...? :) Just hold up your middle 3 fingers in a 'W' shape and touch tips as a secret handshake. ok, just kidding. Seriously, I was... -Original Message- From: Andrew Krespanis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 27 September 2005 3:28 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] WE05 - who's going? How about a secret password that you have to sneak into the first 60 seconds of meeting someone :)..? Or how about everyone interested just bites the bullet and posts their photo contact details like I just did? This secret handshake/signalling in crowded room nonsense isn't going to work. We either need know who we're looking for or decide on a place and time to meet up. -Andrew :) N.젲ȨX+ࠆi nZᅝ֫v+휢h牡ym㶟j�l.f.寉wq(b荞(,)උazX)i ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] WE05 - who's going?
Ok, this is me, http://we04.com/gallery/index.cfm?imgid=dsc_0044 see you there, Grant -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Andrew Krespanis Sent: Tuesday, 27 September 2005 3:28 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] WE05 - who's going? How about a secret password that you have to sneak into the first 60 seconds of meeting someone :)..? Or how about everyone interested just bites the bullet and posts their photo contact details like I just did? This secret handshake/signalling in crowded room nonsense isn't going to work. We either need know who we're looking for or decide on a place and time to meet up. -Andrew :) N.ȨX+i nZ֫v+hym쵩jl.f.ץwq(b(,)උazX)i ** This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain privileged information or confidential information or both. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it and notify the sender. ** N���.�Ȩ�X���+��i�� n�Z�֫v�+��h��y�m�쵩�j�l��.f���.�ץ�w�q(��b��(��,�)උazX����)��
Re: [WSG] WE05 - who's going?
Andrew wrote: Or how about everyone interested just bites the bullet and posts their photo contact details like I just did? i'll be there. here's me: http://c41.com.au/ the secret password is youve been on this list *how* long and your site still uses tables? oh. the. horror. :) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
