RE: [WSG] iOS Safaro issue (?): Fixed and Absolute position

[Tatham Oddie]

As a user, I'd prefer the native support to work.


-- Tatham


-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of tee
Sent: Saturday, 13 August 2011 9:30 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] iOS Safaro issue (?): Fixed and Absolute position

Hi Tatham,

Thank you!!  Feel utterly silly I never discover the feature in 7 by 8" 
iPad screen and 2 by 3" screen from iPod Touch So I did some exploring, notice 
in mobile site that mimics App like interface, it doesn't work, take the new 
twitter mobile site for example, and the iScroll that Caleb mentioned (thanks 
Caleb!) also disable the go to top.

So I guess respecting native support is better yes?

tee


On Aug 11, 2011, at 8:21 PM, Tatham Oddie wrote:

> Hi Tee,
> 
>> (or is there magic tap for go to top shortcut?)
> 
> Just tap at the top of the screen - ie, on the time display.
> 
> Almost any iOS list / screen will scroll back to the top.
> 
> 
> -- Tatham



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RE: [WSG] iOS Safaro issue (?): Fixed and Absolute position

[Tatham Oddie]

Hi Tee,

> (or is there magic tap for go to top shortcut?)

Just tap at the top of the screen - ie, on the time display.

Almost any iOS list / screen will scroll back to the top.


-- Tatham


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RE: [WSG] Need a fresh eye - can anyone see what's wrong please?

[Tatham Oddie]

Mike,

This line is invalid:

background-image: #33 url("images/Footer_background_s1.jpg");

You're defining both the color *and* the url in the image property.

Either change it to:

background-image: url("images/Footer_background_s1.jpg");
background-color: #33;

or:

background: #33 url("images/Footer_background_s1.jpg");

This is invalid across all browsers, it's just that IE8 is the only one that
seems to actually care.


--
Tatham Oddie
au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 280 9140, skype: tathamoddie
If you're printing this email, you're doing it wrong. This is a computer,
not a typewriter.

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Kear
Sent: Wednesday, 1 December 2010 3:50 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Need a fresh eye - can anyone see what's wrong please?

I have a draft layout for a client that is fine in all respects except that
in IE8,  the background image in the footer is missing. 

Here's the page concerned:
http://afpwebworks.com/strikingdistance/index.cfm

And the footer div rule is as follows for IE (I have a IE-only style sheet)
: 

#footer {
color: #d9d9d9;
background-image: #33 url("images/Footer_background_s1.jpg");
background-repeat: repeat-x;
background-position: top;
min-height: 96px;
}

Both the HTML and the CSS validate ok. 


So does any one see what I have wrong for IE?

Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks
http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion 9 Enterprise, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting
from AUD$15/month




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RE: [WSG] Need a fresh eye - can anyone see what's wrong please?

[Tatham Oddie]

Mike,

This line is invalid:

background-image: #33 url("images/Footer_background_s1.jpg");

You're defining both the color *and* the url in the image property.

Either change it to:

background-image: url("images/Footer_background_s1.jpg");
background-color: #33;

or:

background: #33 url("images/Footer_background_s1.jpg");

This is invalid across all browsers, it's just that IE8 is the only one that
seems to actually care.


--
Tatham Oddie
au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 280 9140, skype: tathamoddie
If you're printing this email, you're doing it wrong. This is a computer,
not a typewriter.

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Kear
Sent: Wednesday, 1 December 2010 3:50 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Need a fresh eye - can anyone see what's wrong please?

I have a draft layout for a client that is fine in all respects except that
in IE8,  the background image in the footer is missing. 

Here's the page concerned:
http://afpwebworks.com/strikingdistance/index.cfm

And the footer div rule is as follows for IE (I have a IE-only style sheet)
: 

#footer {
color: #d9d9d9;
background-image: #33 url("images/Footer_background_s1.jpg");
background-repeat: repeat-x;
background-position: top;
min-height: 96px;
}

Both the HTML and the CSS validate ok. 


So does any one see what I have wrong for IE?

Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks
http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion 9 Enterprise, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting
from AUD$15/month




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RE: [WSG] html5 issue

[Tatham Oddie]

You really shouldn't need to feed different CSS for every different version
of IE.

I talk more about this here: http://live.visitmix.com/MIX10/Sessions/EX20

Feel free to ping me off list if you have any specific scenarios that you
feel you need IE specific CSS for. I'll be happy to try and give you
cross-browser equivalents.


--
Tatham Oddie
au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 280 9140, skype: tathamoddie


-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Tom Livingston
Sent: Saturday, 28 August 2010 7:23 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] html5 issue

On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 3:11 PM, David Dorward  wrote:
>
> On 27 Aug 2010, at 19:30, Tom Livingston wrote:
>
>> Line 12, Column 21: A charset attribute on a meta element found after 
>> the first 512 bytes.
>>
>> Can anyone tell me why?
>
>
> You have too much content before the meta tag.
>

That was it. I was using Paul Irish's trick with conditional comments to
feed IE's CSS w/o conditionals with this:






http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml";>


Mr. Irish using it on the body, with classes, but read on his site that
using on the html element was fine as well. Guess not. I think I'll stick to
the tried and true conditional comments it's it's traditional use...

Thanks David.

-- 

Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com


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[WSG] RE: Using a dot "." in a class name

[Tatham Oddie]

Hi Jens,

It would cause a conflict in CSS because of multiple class selectors:

http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/selector.html#class-html

For example:

This has two classes

can be targeted with:

div.class1.class2 { color: red; }

Using a dot in the class name itself would be an ambiguous selector. Does
"div.rating-L4.5" mean "the div with class rating-L4.5" or "the div with
class rating-L4 and class 5"?

As such, while it is valid (as per Sam's email that just came through) I
really wouldn't recommend it. Stick to lowercase letters, numbers and dashes
in your class names I reckon.


--
Tatham Oddie
au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 280 9140, skype: tathamoddie

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Jens-Uwe Korff
Sent: Friday, 12 March 2010 11:12 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Using a dot "." in a class name

Hi all,

I've noticed that YouTube uses a dot for its star rating:



It seems to work in browsers, but I'd like to know if this character is
valid and if it might have future implications if used that way.

Thanks,
Jens


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RE: [WSG] Assistance with flash example sites

[Tatham Oddie]

Hi Elizabeth,

Once I give the Flash block on that site focus by clicking it, tabbing works
fine.

I couldn't find an alternative way of giving it focus.


Thanks,

Tatham Oddie
au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 422 7068, skype: tathamoddie,
landline: +61 2 8011 3982, fax: +61 2 9475 5172
my business: tixi.com.au - Ticketing without the dramas

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Elizabeth Spiegel
Sent: Monday, 1 February 2010 5:59 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Assistance with flash example sites

Hi Russ

http://www.monotone.com.au/

as far as I can see, no tab access at all.


Elizabeth Spiegel
Web editing

0409 986 158
GPO Box 729, Hobart TAS 7001
www.spiegelweb.com.au



-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Russ Weakley
Sent: Monday, 1 February 2010 2:52 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Assistance with flash example sites

Hi people,

A colleague has just asked me for some examples of Flash sites:

1. examples of flash sites which are not keyboard accessible (and/or poor
tab ordering) 2. examples of flash sites which ARE keyboard accessible 3.
examples of flash sites which work well with screen readers

(He is aware of the Harry Potter Flash site, but is after other, possibly
more recent examples)

Please no comments about the merits or lack of merits of Flash. This is for
some research he is conduction.  :)

Thanks
Russ



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RE: [WSG] Styling IE8 web slices

[Tatham Oddie]

> What does a proprietary technique have to do with web standards?

Marketing name: IE8 Web Slices
Technology: hSlice



-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Chris F.A. Johnson
Sent: Monday, 18 January 2010 9:22 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Styling IE8 web slices

On Mon, 18 Jan 2010, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> I find that when implementing a web slice its background displays a sprite
we use. All efforts so far to style the background to plain white failed
(even with inline styles as recommended by MS [1]).
> 
> Has anyone successfully styled web slices that do not have a separate HTML
source?

What does a proprietary technique have to do with web standards?

Does it even work with anything other than IE8?

> [1] http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc848871%28VS.85%29.aspx

-- 
   Chris F.A. Johnson  
   ===
   Author:
   Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
   Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress)


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RE: [WSG] Is it bug of IE 7 ??

[Tatham Oddie]

Because Microsoft only decided to do it on  and not on other
tags. It is no more complex than that. It is not a bug.

 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 422 7068, skype: tathamoddie,
landline: +61 2 8011 3982, fax: +61 2 9475 5172

my business:  <http://tixi.com.au/> tixi.com.au - Ticketing without the
dramas

 

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Jayachandran Kandasamy
Sent: Tuesday, 12 January 2010 11:10 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Is it bug of IE 7 ??

 

Hi Oddie,

 

Your answer was confusing rather convincing :) :)

 

why it is only for FIELDSET tags happening for IE 7 only can you please
gimme some examples with scenarios ???

Thanks,

JC

On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 2:23 AM, Tatham Oddie  wrote:

It's not a bug - it's just how IE decides to render it. It's totally up to
the browser as so how it renders controls, and the rounded corners are
consistent with other parts of Windows.

 

As soon as you apply a CSS based border, you're just overriding this
behaviour with your own.

 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 422 7068, skype: tathamoddie,
landline: +61 2 8011 3982, fax: +61 2 9475 5172

my business:  <http://tixi.com.au/> tixi.com.au - Ticketing without the
dramas

 

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Jayachandran Kandasamy
Sent: Tuesday, 12 January 2010 9:01 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Is it bug of IE 7 ??

 

Hi Folks,

 

Why does the fielset tag create rounded corner by default in the IE 7
browser, I dont have IE 6 with me and it is working fine with IE 8 & FF

 

When we apply any border through CSS explicitly, then it works as normal.

 

Please revert with some valuable explanation. 

 

Thanks,

JC


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RE: [WSG] Is it bug of IE 7 ??

[Tatham Oddie]

It's not a bug - it's just how IE decides to render it. It's totally up to
the browser as so how it renders controls, and the rounded corners are
consistent with other parts of Windows.

 

As soon as you apply a CSS based border, you're just overriding this
behaviour with your own.

 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 422 7068, skype: tathamoddie,
landline: +61 2 8011 3982, fax: +61 2 9475 5172

my business:  <http://tixi.com.au/> tixi.com.au - Ticketing without the
dramas

 

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Jayachandran Kandasamy
Sent: Tuesday, 12 January 2010 9:01 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Is it bug of IE 7 ??

 

Hi Folks,

 

Why does the fielset tag create rounded corner by default in the IE 7
browser, I dont have IE 6 with me and it is working fine with IE 8 & FF

 

When we apply any border through CSS explicitly, then it works as normal.

 

Please revert with some valuable explanation. 

 

Thanks,

JC


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RE: [WSG] google chrome frame

[Tatham Oddie]

I've spent the last 12 months working on the one of the largest sites in
Australia. Over this time we have updated our browser support matrix twice,
and will probably update it again soon.

For us, IE6 usage is starting to hit a rapid decline, falling at about 1
percentage point a week. The last 3 weeks have been 8.75%, 7.60% and now
6.25%.

Considering Chrome is currently unsupported but at 4.57% (and growing), I
expect our next update will be to drop IE6 support in favour of adding
Chrome support.

That being said, the whole site is based on progressive enhancement so it
already works in Chrome and we even have a small but consistent set of users
browsing on their PS3s.

Nevertheless, the decision of which browsers you support (and to what degree
you support them) needs to be something that you evaluate and decide
yourself using your own market metrics. Anybody who tells you what you
should and should not support is most likely an idiot and probably not a
very good business person.


Thanks,

Tatham Oddie
au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 422 7068, skype: tathamoddie,
landline: +61 2 8011 3982, fax: +61 2 9475 5172
my business: tixi.com.au – Ticketing without the dramas


-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Steve Green
Sent: Monday, 4 January 2010 11:10 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] google chrome frame

In our large-ish corporate environment we're stuck with IE6 as our default
probably for another year :(

While we know that people have installed newer browsers——IE7 is authorised,
but not the default--we still can't stop supporting IE6.



One of the UK high street banks who has tens of thousands of users recently
advised me that they will be retaining IE6 as the default browser until 2014
due to the huge amount of work required to fix the large number of bespoke
applications they use. Staff can ask for special dispensation to get IE7
installed but if you've ever tried to get a corporate IT department to do
anything you'll understand that very few people will bother asking.

I think that techies forget the concerns that ordinary people have about
technology. Older users in particular are often reluctant to install or
change anything because they don't know what they can trust and they are
scared something will break. Unlike us, they don't have the knowledge or
facilities to fix anything that goes wrong.

I suspect that the kind of websites that ordinary people use will still be
seeing significant IE6 traffic (probably in excess of 10%) for a couple more
years. The stats for techie sites will be very different, so a decision on
whether to support IE6 will depend on the demographics of the visitors.

FWIW, one of my team was in Bangalore over Christmas and had to use an
Internet café. The machines were running Windows 98! So let's not forget
that some parts of the world cannot afford to upgrade as fast as we can.

Steve Green

 




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RE: [WSG] Accessibility and HTML Emails

[Tatham Oddie]

Campaign Monitor, the company behind the ESP have more great resources on
their own site as well:

 

http://www.campaignmonitor.com/resources/

 

I highly recommend all of their content because I know there's a huge amount
of effort that goes into all the associated research and cross-client
testing.

 

 


Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

blog:  <http://tath.am/> tath.am

au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 422 7068, skype: tathamoddie,
landline: +61 2 8011 3982, fax: +61 2 9475 5172

current project:  <http://tixi.com.au/> tixi.com.au - Ticketing without the
dramas

 

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of S.R. Emerson
Sent: Thursday, 29 October 2009 9:06 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility and HTML Emails

 

You can have a look at The Email Standards Project
http://www.email-standards.org/ for information.

 

Also, if you want to build a set of guidelines that will work in the future,
you might want to read these two:

Microsoft to ignore web standards in Outlook 2010 - enough is enough
<http://www.email-standards.org/blog/entry/microsoft-to-ignore-web-standards
/>
http://www.email-standards.org/blog/entry/microsoft-to-ignore-web-standards/

 

Microsoft responds to our call for standards support
<http://www.email-standards.org/blog/entry/microsoft-respond-to-our-call-for
-standards-support/>
http://www.email-standards.org/blog/entry/microsoft-respond-to-our-call-for-
standards-support/

 

S. Emerson
Accrete Web Solutions
 <http://www.accretewebsolutions.ca> http://www.accretewebsolutions.ca
On Twitter:  <http://twitter.com/accrete> http://twitter.com/accrete

 


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RE: [WSG] Accessibility and HTML Emails

[Tatham Oddie]

Yes, I love the accessible nature of a long string of non-descript asterisks
instead of a simple horizontal rule element.

 


Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

blog:  <http://tath.am/> tath.am

au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 422 7068, skype: tathamoddie,
landline: +61 2 8011 3982, fax: +61 2 9475 5172

current project:  <http://tixi.com.au/> tixi.com.au - Ticketing without the
dramas

 

 

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Felix Miata
Sent: Thursday, 29 October 2009 11:28 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility and HTML Emails

 

On 2009/10/28 17:37 (GMT-0400) kris wright composed:

 

> email clients vary

> wildly in their HTML rendering capabilities, and on occasion actually 

> modify your HTML code makes things even more confusing.

 

Email is supposed to be text communication. Web pages are web pages. If you
want your email recipients to reliably see web pages nearly as you intend
for them to look, have them open them in their web browsers instead of their
email clients. Make the email 100% plain text only, and provide in the email
a URL to the HTML (and CSS) formatted version on your web host.

 

Most HTML email that arrives here is redirected to the bit bucket, since
HTML in email is a highly favored spammer malware delivery method. Whatever
HTML email doesn't reach the bit bucket is seen as (big enough to read)
plain text anyway, courtesy of my email app, which has been directed to show
all messages only as plain text.

-- 

"   A patriot without religion . . . is as great a

paradox, as an honest man without the fear of God. . . .

2nd U.S. President, John
Adams

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

 

Felix Miata  ***   <http://fm.no-ip.com/> http://fm.no-ip.com/

 

 

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RE: [WSG] Test in Outlook 2007

[Tatham Oddie]

You can also just download the Office trial and run it in a VM ... Won't
cost you a cent and you get instant feedback.

 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 206 331 5568, skype: tathamoddie,
landline: +61 2 8011 3982, fax: +61 2 9475 5172

my business:  <http://tixi.com.au/> tixi.com.au - Ticketing without the
dramas

 

From: Tatham Oddie [mailto:tat...@oddie.com.au] 
Sent: Thursday, 30 April 2009 12:57 AM
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
Subject: RE: [WSG] Test in Outlook 2007

 

Paul,

 

Office 2007 uses the Word rendering engine which is quite a different beast
from any browser, and even quite different to Outlook 2003 (which used the
IE engine for rendering and Word for composing).

 

You may find other tools like Campaign Monitor which run an instance and
deliver the result, but I'd be very wary about trusting any arbitrarily
created "emulations".

 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 206 331 5568, skype: tathamoddie,
landline: +61 2 8011 3982, fax: +61 2 9475 5172

my business:  <http://tixi.com.au/> tixi.com.au - Ticketing without the
dramas

 

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Paul Collins
Sent: Thursday, 30 April 2009 12:07 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Test in Outlook 2007

 

Hi all,

 

Just wondering, has anyone ever figured out a way of testing Outlook 2007
when you don't have it installed? Wondering if there is some kind of online
software that emulates it perhaps?

 

Campaign Monitor offers testing, but it costs a fiver each time you want to
check.

 

Would appreciate any help.

Cheers

Paul


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RE: [WSG] Test in Outlook 2007

[Tatham Oddie]

Paul,

 

Office 2007 uses the Word rendering engine which is quite a different beast
from any browser, and even quite different to Outlook 2003 (which used the
IE engine for rendering and Word for composing).

 

You may find other tools like Campaign Monitor which run an instance and
deliver the result, but I'd be very wary about trusting any arbitrarily
created "emulations".

 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 206 331 5568, skype: tathamoddie,
landline: +61 2 8011 3982, fax: +61 2 9475 5172

my business:  <http://tixi.com.au/> tixi.com.au - Ticketing without the
dramas

 

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Paul Collins
Sent: Thursday, 30 April 2009 12:07 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Test in Outlook 2007

 

Hi all,

 

Just wondering, has anyone ever figured out a way of testing Outlook 2007
when you don't have it installed? Wondering if there is some kind of online
software that emulates it perhaps?

 

Campaign Monitor offers testing, but it costs a fiver each time you want to
check.

 

Would appreciate any help.

Cheers

Paul


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RE: [WSG] IE8 compatibility mode

[Tatham Oddie]

Tee,

IE8 is shown as a Windows Update. If you're in Uninstall or Change Programs,
make sure you have "Show Updates" ticked at the top of the window.


Tatham Oddie
http://tath.am


-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of tee
Sent: Saturday, 28 March 2009 4:02 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] IE8 compatibility mode


On Mar 26, 2009, at 4:21 PM, Nick Hodge wrote:
>>
>> A heads up, I was using Classic View for my Vista, in IE8 with
>> standard mode the sites all had a few paddings/margins issue in a
>> number of pages where absolute position is declared, and on few areas
>> where there is darken background color with lighter 1px horizontal
>> line, the line turns to solid white. Soon as  I switched to Vista
>> View, all these problems disappeared.
>
> Is the URL for this so I can escalate to IE8 team?
>
> Nick Hodge

Hi Nick,

I switched back to Classic View thinking to make the screenshots, but  
all the problems I saw before I switched to Vista View are gone. Not  
sure if it was some residues from IE7 I am absolute those problems are  
real, not my imaginations as I actually spent some 10 minutes trying  
to fix one page by adding a It IE8 Conditional comment, when it didn't  
work as it should as I know my CSS code, I started looking for other  
possible cause, however switching to Vista View was quite accidental  
because IE8 looks exactly like IE7 in the classic view and I couldn't  
find the Compatibility Mode on the toolbar.


I would have uninstalled IE8 to run another test to see if I can see  
those problem again, but I can't find how to uninstall IE8. In the  
Control Panel > Uninstall or Change Program, I can't see IE8.

tee


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RE: [WSG] IE8 compatibility mode

[Tatham Oddie]

Would you mind sending me the link so I can take a look and diagnose why it
is not rendering properly without compatibility view?


Tatham Oddie
http://tath.am


-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Eyemax Studios
Sent: Tuesday, 7 April 2009 3:37 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] IE8 compatibility mode

Personally I think this is just another Microsoft attempt at trying to 
enforce what it believes the Standards should be.
I too, spent several minutes trying to fix problems in ie8, when my wife 
noticed the main business's site not displaying properly, then she 
noticed the compatibility button next to the address bar in ie8 and it 
all worked fine.


Tatham Oddie wrote:
> Tee,
>
> IE8 is shown as a Windows Update. If you're in Uninstall or Change
Programs,
> make sure you have "Show Updates" ticked at the top of the window.
>
>
> Tatham Oddie
> http://tath.am
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
> Behalf Of tee
> Sent: Saturday, 28 March 2009 4:02 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] IE8 compatibility mode
>
>
> On Mar 26, 2009, at 4:21 PM, Nick Hodge wrote:
>   
>>> A heads up, I was using Classic View for my Vista, in IE8 with
>>> standard mode the sites all had a few paddings/margins issue in a
>>> number of pages where absolute position is declared, and on few areas
>>> where there is darken background color with lighter 1px horizontal
>>> line, the line turns to solid white. Soon as  I switched to Vista
>>> View, all these problems disappeared.
>>>   
>> Is the URL for this so I can escalate to IE8 team?
>>
>> Nick Hodge
>> 
>
> Hi Nick,
>
> I switched back to Classic View thinking to make the screenshots, but  
> all the problems I saw before I switched to Vista View are gone. Not  
> sure if it was some residues from IE7 I am absolute those problems are  
> real, not my imaginations as I actually spent some 10 minutes trying  
> to fix one page by adding a It IE8 Conditional comment, when it didn't  
> work as it should as I know my CSS code, I started looking for other  
> possible cause, however switching to Vista View was quite accidental  
> because IE8 looks exactly like IE7 in the classic view and I couldn't  
> find the Compatibility Mode on the toolbar.
>
>
> I would have uninstalled IE8 to run another test to see if I can see  
> those problem again, but I can't find how to uninstall IE8. In the  
> Control Panel > Uninstall or Change Program, I can't see IE8.
>
> tee
>
>
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RE: [WSG] JavaScript as External File vs. Internal Code and linking to images

[Tatham Oddie]

Brett,

 

CSS is defining the image links, so the paths are relative to the CSS file
itself.

 

JavaScript is a bit different. It is basically just setting properties on
the HTML elements and this is no different to setting those properties
yourself. As such, any image references are relative to the HTML page and
not the JS file.

 

Does that help?

 

 

(Disclaimer: I know this isn't the 100% perfect explanation of DHTML but it
serves the purpose of answering this question. If you're a JS nut, please
don't pounce.)

 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

  call:+61414275989,  
call:+61280113982,   skype:tathamoddie,
 msn:tat...@oddie.com.au,
<http://tatham.oddie.com.au/> tatham.oddie.com.au

 

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Brett Patterson
Sent: Wednesday, 7 January 2009 12:08 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] JavaScript as External File vs. Internal Code and linking to
images

 

Recently, I experimented with changing check boxes with JavaScript. If the
user clicked on the words next to the check box, then the box would be
checked, once checked if the user clicked again, then the box would be
unchecked. I wound up having to apply the same code to the check box itself
in order to get it to work. In addition, I added code that would change the
background image of the page to either a solid color, if checked, or back to
the original image, if unchecked. It did not work. So after changing it some
more and still getting no results (I think I even asked here), I did some
research and found another way to link images directly in JavaScript. 
I should make note that all the code was in an external file at the time.
The following is the structure of the site:

-container (the name of the containing folder for all files)
||
--index.html (home page where the code will be used)
--scripts (the scripts folder, contains all the scripts)
|
---scripts.js (the scripts file itself)
^^
--styles (stylesheets folder located directly within the container
folder)
||
---styles.css (contains style declarations)
^^
--images  (located directly within the container folder)
|
---linkedimage.png (the image to be changed in page background)

I hope the structure above makes sense. Anyway, while linking the image in
the scripts.js file, I found it never switched back, yet the code never
showed any problems. When I found the other way to link images directly in
JavaScript, I changed the image link code to what would amount to being
directly in the HTML file itself: The first is the original way I linked it
the second is the new way.

*   (../images/linkedimage.png);
*   from above, changed to
*   (images/linkedimage.png);

After the change above, the code worked. I went back to reading about the
JavaScript standard, I thought that JavaScript was read like an external CSS
file was read, where you would have to use the (../) part to link to the
image if it was in a different folder one level above the current folder.
(as the first line of code above is.) Is that not how JavaScript works? When
it comes to linked images?

--
Brett P.

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RE: [WSG] JS patterns

[Tatham Oddie]

Hi Tee,

There are no JQuery specific extensions to IE8.

There are general speed and reliability improvements to the JS engine in the
browser, and IDE support for JQuery in Visual Studio, however the support is
not specific to IE+JQuery.


Thanks,

Tatham Oddie
call:+61414275989, call:+61280113982, skype:tathamoddie,
msn:[EMAIL PROTECTED], tatham.oddie.com.au

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of tee
Sent: Monday, 8 December 2008 12:37 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] JS patterns


On Dec 7, 2008, at 4:34 AM, Jason Grant wrote:

> A quick note to the group to say that a great, lightweight, JQuery  
> based, continuously updated, object-oriented, highly reusable set of  
> patterns is being developed by Adam Silver, a great JS developer.
>
> http://www.adoromedia.com/projects/
>
> Patterns are constantly being improved and Adam would appreciate  
> feedback from people and comments on how to improve them even more.  
> Needless to say that I am using and re-using these patterns and can  
> highly recommend them.
>
>

Hi Jason, thanks for the link, and I am a jQuery fan :-)

Something not related to your post but jQuery. As many of you likely  
have known that Microsoft have adapted jQuery framework, and this  
question has been in  my head for a while: does this meant future IE  
(starts from IE8?) will speed up load time for site that uses jQuery?

tee


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RE: [WSG] labels as input wrappers + in place of legend

[Tatham Oddie]

Johan – what you are describing is the correct usage in that scenario.

 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

  call:+61414275989,   
call:+61280113982,   skype:tathamoddie,   msn:[EMAIL PROTECTED],  <http://tatham.oddie.com.au/> 
tatham.oddie.com.au

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Johan Douma
Sent: Thursday, 16 October 2008 11:23 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] labels as input wrappers +  in place of legend

 

I've always used label arount input fields text:  without the for="" attribute. 
I've never had problems with it, and I don't think I've ever seen any 
recommendation against it.




Johan Douma
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



2008/10/16 David Dorward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Jason Grant wrote:
> Ok you got both of these quite wrong for following reasons:
>
> In the first instance you shouldn't use  or  at all.
> In the second instance you should not wrap  into  as the
>  should quite clearly be used for denoting a label of an input
> field and not the input field itself.

Not so:

"When [the for attribute is] absent, the label being defined is
associated with the element's contents."

"""


  First Name
  

"""

 -- http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#h-17.9.1


--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk/




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RE: [WSG] .NET sites which are XHTML 1.0 strict

[Tatham Oddie]

Just this week Damian Edwards released a set of templates for ASP.NET which
make it XHTML 1.1 compliant.

You can download them for free from here:

http://www.codeplex.com/VSXHTML11Templates/

They install a new project type in Visual Studio, that when used gives you
an XHTML1.1 compliant site to start with.


Thanks,

Tatham Oddie
call:+61414275989, call:+61280113982, skype:tathamoddie,
msn:[EMAIL PROTECTED], tatham.oddie.com.au

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christian Snodgrass
Sent: Wednesday, 8 October 2008 2:34 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] .NET sites which are XHTML 1.0 strict

Those all have errors (and are HTML, not XHTML). The errors are minor, 
but there are a number of them.

Robin Gorry wrote:
> http://www.mucu4u.org.nz/Home_61.aspx
> http://www.oneeast.co.nz/
> http://www.colorfastsigns.co.nz/Home_34.aspx
>
>
>
> Robin Gorry
> Senior Web Developer
> Xplore Net Solutions
>
>
>
> Xplore.net Website of the Week:  Weleda (Australia) - www.weleda.com.au 
>
>
> Weleda has a range of anthroposophic medicine - the simple yet powerful
> way to utilise nature's medicines to stimulate the body to 'heal
> itself'.  Until recently their website did not accurately reflect their
> brand and they had no easy way to profile their product range to their
> Australian consumers.
>   
>
> The new Weleda website is powered by the Xsite content manager, Xforms,
> Xshop, Xmembers and Xtend. Combined, this powerful toolset enables
> Weleda staff to add/edit/delete pages, text and imagery throughout their
> site, create online forms and surveys, provide an online product
> catalogue and issue logins to restricted access areas on their website.
>
>
>
> f:  00 64 (0)6 834 24 86
> e : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> w: www.xplore.net
>
>
> Take control of your website - ask me today about Xsite-tomorrows
> Content Management System
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and
> may also be privileged.
> If you are not the named recipient, please notify the sender immediately
> and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any
> purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Anthony Milner
> Sent: 08 October 2008 15:23
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: [WSG] .NET sites which are XHTML 1.0 strict
>
> Hi,
>
> I was having a *chat* with some .NET developer colleagues and they
> challenged me to find a .NET site that achieves XHTML 1.0 strict
> compliance. Hoping to prove to them that it can be done.
>
> Does anybody know of some .NET sites which are XHTML 1.0 strict (or even
> transitional)?
>
> Thanks,
> Anthony
>
>  
>
>
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-- 
Christian Snodgrass
Azure Ronin Web Design
http://www.arwebdesign.net
http://www.numberoverflow.com
http://www.htmlblox.com
Phone: 859.816.7955



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RE: [WSG] Incorporating Terms and Cons in signup page

[Tatham Oddie]

I would recommend a div element with a fixed height and overflow:auto.

Use of a textarea would not be semantically correct because it is not user
input. The only reason that leads to its use is that is gives you a scroll
bar for free, however this can be achieved with relative ease as mentioned
before. The submission problem is more of a side-effect than a root problem.

div.TermsAndConditions
{
height: 8em;
overflow: auto;
}



Your text here.
And here ...


If required, you could also have a checkbox where they acknowledge their
acceptance of the terms. This would be implemented as with any other form
field because it semantically is user input.


Thanks,

Tatham Oddie
call:+61414275989, call:+61280113982, skype:tathamoddie,
msn:[EMAIL PROTECTED], tatham.oddie.com.au

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jason Pruim
Sent: Tuesday, 30 September 2008 11:46 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Incorporating Terms and Cons in signup page


On Sep 30, 2008, at 9:15 AM, John Unsworth wrote:

> Hi WSG,
> I'm wondering about the best method to incorporate in a signup form a
> Terms and Conditions agreement, which being so long will be bought to
> the page externally. Or if it's thought best, maybe not!
> On a previous occasion I went forward using the  tag. The
> advantage to my mind is that, my document (that may change in future)
> is separate to the form and for those who don't have a browser capable
> of using the  tag, can see alternative text to link to the
> separately hosted T&C page.
> But it's been put to me at work, there might be a way to house the
> document in a div, give the div a fixed size and make it scrollable.
> Alternatively I could use a textarea element, although I'm given to
> understand it would need to be outside the  so as not include it
> in the 'Signup' event when the submit button is clicked. However to
> satisfy the designer, who follows that the convention is that the form
> is visually seen before the last submit button, I'd use CSS to
> position it - but that doesn't sound very semantic to me?
> Putting it on another page, that you would link to, read, then return
> to the form to agree to has been rejected for the sanctity of the
> concept of a single page signup document.
> I hope I've been clear, and I guess I'm interested in anything similar
> to this in best practice, accessibility and standards.
> Cheers for just being there folks,
> John Unsworth


Hi John,

I haven't ever needed to write this before, but I have seen a decent  
sized scroll box at the bottom of a form with a check box to confirm  
they have read it and agree to it.

All the ones I have seen are above the final submit button, but I'm  
not sure if they are truly inside the form or not.

Depending on how you are submitting the form, and how big of a file  
the T&C page is, you COULD submit it and just ignore it... But  
depending on the load of the server it might take a little bit longer  
to process the form.

Just something to think about :)


--

Jason Pruim
Raoset Inc.
Technology Manager
MQC Specialist
11287 James St
Holland, MI 49424
www.raoset.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]






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RE: [WSG] dl question

[Tatham Oddie]

DL = definition LIST

Just like you have multiple bullet points in a UL or OL, you can have
multiple entries in a DL. It's a perfectly valid use.


Thanks,

Tatham Oddie
call:+61414275989, call:+61280113982, skype:tathamoddie,
msn:[EMAIL PROTECTED], tatham.oddie.com.au

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 4 August 2008 1:20 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] dl question

Hi all,

I was under the impression a  could only contain one  and one  
or many 's.

But I have just come across a piece of code that uses multiple 's  
in the one 

Upon further investigation, it seems this is legitimate  
practicebut does it make sense?!?!

Semantically, isn't the whole point of a  to use definition data  
tags ('s) to describe a definition title ()!? Does it make  
sense to have multiple definition titles in the same ?! Or does it  
make more sense to have a seperate  for each ??
__
Christian Fagan
Fagan Design
fagandesign.com.au


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RE: [WSG] Validation

[Tatham Oddie]

Fuji,

 

It is because it is inline script, which the validator is trying to parse.

 

Change this:

 

 



Your script here ...



 

 

to:

 

 



/*<![CDATA[*/

Your script here ...

/*]]>*/



 

 

(Note the additional two lines wrapping it)

 

More info at: http://javascript.about.com/library/blxhtml.htm

 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

  call:+61414275989,   
call:+61280113982,   skype:tathamoddie,   msn:[EMAIL PROTECTED],  <http://tatham.oddie.com.au/> 
tatham.oddie.com.au

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Fuji kusaka
Sent: Thursday, 19 June 2008 4:30 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Validation

 

Can someone help me out with this validation?

this is a javascript for my menu which is inside my html page.


Line 154, Column 39: document type does not allow element "li" here.

$back = $('').appendTo

 <http://validator.w3.org/feedback.html?uri=;errmsg_id=64#errormsg> ✉ 

The element named above was found in a context where it is not allowed. This 
could mean that you have incorrectly nested elements -- such as a "style" 
element in the "body" section instead of inside "head" -- or two elements that 
overlap (which is not allowed). 

One common cause for this error is the use of XHTML syntax in HTML documents. 
Due to HTML's rules of implicitly closed elements, this error can create 
cascading effects. For instance, using XHTML's "self-closing" tags for "meta" 
and "link" in the "head" section of a HTML document may cause the parser to 
infer the end of the "head" section and the beginning of the "body" section 
(where "link" and "meta" are not allowed; hence the reported error). 

 

-- 
Fuji kusaka 
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RE: [WSG] Width defaulting to 100%?

[Tatham Oddie \(Fuel Advance\)]

Kara,

Block elements (like ) always expand to the full width by default.

By the sounds of it you're after an inline element, so either:

A) use a  instead

or

B) set display:inline; on the DIV

You might find it helpful to read up on the difference between block and
inline elements.



Thanks,

Tatham Oddie
Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea
www.fueladvance.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Kara O'Halloran - Eduka
Sent: Tuesday, 4 October 2005 2:39 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Width defaulting to 100%?

Hi guys,

I have 2 divs inside a container.

1: a relatively positioned div to contain and position an image
2: another div, absolute position, to contain a submenu. 

Image on left, menu on right.

For some reason, both divs are expanding horizontally to take up all the
available space, even when the content inside them is only 20 pixels
wide. I'm not specifying any widths because the content is dynamic so I
have no way of knowing what the width will be.

The only width I have specified is the container width of 60em. 

Why are they doing this? Shouldn't they only expand horizontally to make
room for whatever is contained in them - in this case only a few words?

Any help would be appreciated. :)
K

(ps this happens in both ff and ie.)
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RE: [WSG] Page templates submitted for review (discard previous mail)

[Tatham Oddie \(Fuel Advance\)]

Pat,

 

The ‘New York’ design
shows up like this in a screen reader:

Page
has twelve links Kraainem dash NewYork
dash Mozilla Firefox Summary colon Layout
table Table with one column and one row Table end List
of six items bullet This page link Home alt plus 1 bullet This page link News bullet This page link Contact
alt plus 9 bullet
This page link Sitemap alt plus s bullet
This page link Skip nav alt plus 2 bullet
This page link Help alt plus 0 List
end List of six items bullet This page
link New York bullet This page link Paris bullet This page link Milan
bullet This
page link Brussels bullet This page link London bullet This page link Hong
Kong List end 



 

There’s still
some unnecessary stuff that clutters the output. Just because it meets all the
validators doesn’t mean it’s correct on the accessiblity front.
Also, I just don’t see why you need a table here.

 

Nice idea though…
and I like some of the designs.

 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea

www.fueladvance.com











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Pat Boens
Sent: Thursday, 29 September 2005
3:04 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Page templates
submitted for review (discard previous mail)



 

Dears,

 

In an attempt to bring a little contribution to the world of web
standards we have developed a dozen templates that we would like to submit for
your review. These templates are all shared under the terms of the
"Attribution" license of "Creative Commons". We would like
to obtain your comments in the following areas:

 

1) XHTML 1.1: quality of code (+ possible improvements)

2) CSS: quality of code (+ possible improvements)

3) WCAG: we tend to create Triple-A templates, how good are we doing?
are our templates/pages really accessible?

4) Elegance of design: how good are we doing?

 

 

 

 

Here are the templates:

 


 http://www.fastwrite.com/dvlonly/web/paradeigma/Liquid/Samples/tennis.html
 http://www.fastwrite.com/dvlonly/web/paradeigma/corporate/corporate2.html
 http://www.fastwrite.com/dvlonly/web/paradeigma/motoconcho/motoconcho.html
 http://www.fastwrite.com/dvlonly/web/paradeigma/Liquid/Liquid2.html
 http://www.fastwrite.com/dvlonly/web/paradeigma/Quietude/Quietude.html
 http://www.fastwrite.com/dvlonly/web/paradeigma/senator/senator.html
 http://www.fastwrite.com/dvlonly/web/paradeigma/spagyrum/spagyrum.html
 http://www.fastwrite.com/dvlonly/web/paradeigma/Typografia/Typografia.html
 http://www.fastwrite.com/dvlonly/web/paradeigma/Veritas/Veritas.html
 http://www.fastwrite.com/dvlonly/web/paradeigma/NewYork/NewYork.html
 http://www.fastwrite.com/dvlonly/web/paradeigma/Furio/Furio.html


 

Thank you for your input.

 

 

 

Pat Boens

RE: SPAM-LOW: [WSG] Java (JSP) v .net for standard and accessibility

[Tatham Oddie \(Fuel Advance\)]

Not true – you just
need to know how to use it properly instead of Microsoft bashing.

 

If you do want to use
the built in controls and still get compliant markup, I can provide you with a
really simple article on how to do so.



 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea

www.fueladvance.com











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of csslist
Sent: Tuesday, 27 September 2005
10:34 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: re: SPAM-LOW: [WSG] Java
(JSP) v .net for standard and accessibility



 

Have you ever seen anything that
microsoft makes that makes anything near compliant code? didnt think so
If you are going to use .net and want complient code then you will spend a lot
of time going back and tweaking the code to get it to comply.









From: Stuart
Sherwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005
8:23 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: SPAM-LOW: [WSG] Java
(JSP) v .net for standard and accessibility

I have been lucky enough to work with a very experienced java programmer 
on the last few sites I have designed. I do all the front end, he does 
the database, application, CMS, security and e-commerce development.

The experience has been very pleasurable because of the degree of 
separation we have achieved between the front and back ends that allows 
me to make the sites fully standards compatible. Any dymanic content 
spits out pure content with the bare minimum of markup necessary.

I'm wondering how .net compares as I haven't had the chance yet to build 
a site with it?

Regards,
Stuart Sherwood
www.re-entity.com
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RE: [WSG] Java (JSP) v .net for standard and accessibility

[Tatham Oddie \(Fuel Advance\)]

Stuart,

The out of box ASP.NET controls in v1.1 are really quite shocking.

The out of box ASP.NET controls in v2 are XHTML compliant. (However this
doesn't mean they are semantic.)

However, the webforms concept (which uses all these drag n' drop controls)
isn't very good when it comes to the separation of concerns approach that
you're after.

You probably want to look at the MonoRail project -
http://www.castleproject.org/ which is basically a .NET version of Ruby on
Rails. This is the framework used behind my sites like
http://www.viavirtualearth.com/ which are semantic, compliant XHTML sites.


Thanks,

Tatham Oddie
Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea
www.fueladvance.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Stuart Sherwood
Sent: Tuesday, 27 September 2005 10:13 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Java (JSP) v .net for standard and accessibility

I have been lucky enough to work with a very experienced java programmer 
on the last few sites I have designed. I do all the front end, he does 
the database, application, CMS, security and e-commerce development.

The experience has been very pleasurable because of the degree of 
separation we have achieved between the front and back ends that allows 
me to make the sites fully standards compatible. Any dymanic content 
spits out pure content with the bare minimum of markup necessary.

I'm wondering how .net compares as I haven't had the chance yet to build 
a site with it?

Regards,
Stuart Sherwood
www.re-entity.com
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RE: [WSG] teaching students developing to web standards

[Tatham Oddie \(Fuel Advance\)]

Christian,

 

I agree with that. The
word “transitional” implies that it’s about moving to newer
standards.



 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea

www.fueladvance.com











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Montoya
Sent: Monday, 12 September 2005
8:20 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] teaching
students developing to web standards



 

That's the dumbest thing
I've ever heard. Transitional pages are full of deprecated HTML 4.0 tags that
are not allowed in XHTML 1.1 or 2.0. Strict pages can usually be validated as
XHTML 1.1 without any changes. Just read the XHTML specifications for
differences between XHTML 1.0 and 1.1. It's about 3 lines. 

Strict means the page meets XHTML 1.0 specs completely. Transitional means the
page has deprecated tags that are being ignored. It's a very simple difference.


Anyone else concur?



On 9/11/05, dwain
alford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

Christian Montoya wrote:
> Actually, I forgot about this link too. This is a class at Cornell
> University that teaches XHTML 1.0 Strict. Here's the link:
>
> http://cs130.cs.cornell.edu

as was brought to my attention not too long ago, if your pages are
strict, then the future life of the pages is shortened with any changes
to the xhtml recommendations.  the transitional doctype seems to be a

better choice because it will last longer than the strict doctype.  i
think someone on this list brought this to my attention.

dwain

--
dwain alford
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
http://www.alforddesigngroup.com

The Savior replied;
"There is no such thing as sin;..."
'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala'
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RE: [WSG] Q: cross browser submit button image replacement

[Tatham Oddie \(Fuel Advance\)]

Rex,

Safari won't let you style at all.

Take a look at what I did on www.whatcanido.com.au for the search fields
top-left.



Thanks,

Tatham Oddie
Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea
www.fueladvance.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Rex Chung
Sent: Monday, 15 August 2005 9:16 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Q: cross browser submit button image replacement

Hi all,

Anyone know what is the best practise for image replacement with
rollover states for submit buttons.

I tried adding onmouseover class change javascript with:
1. background image for 
but - doesnt work for safari, value attribute shows up 

2. text-indent=-1000em for submit
but onmouseover doesnt seem to work for IE.

I haven't found a good solution for cross browser capability with
rollover states.

Thanks!
Rex.
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RE: [WSG] Spacing Issue

[Tatham Oddie \(Fuel Advance\)]

Brian,

> I'll ignore the 'get over it'

This was directed aimlessly at a lot of people, not personal. ;-)


> My only real issue with hacks is that they are not future proof.

They main requirement for our hacks was to get IE into line. As the website
has a largely Microsoft target audience, IE7 is already an issue for us.
While we test in IE6 and IE7, we haven't yet had any differences. This may
change in Beta 2, but for now it is all fine. Realistically, if you're
desigining a site for a few hundred bucks and leaving it for 2 years, future
proofing is a bit of an issue, but for most sites it's not that hard to keep
ahead of the browser curve. Browsers are only release about every six months
to a year at best.


> Well done.

Thanks alot.


> I see many sites not unlike Virtual Earth hitting the Net very soon. :)

I don't understand what you mean here?



Thanks,

Tatham Oddie
Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea
www.fueladvance.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Webmaster
Sent: Friday, 12 August 2005 12:53 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Spacing Issue

> If there's a tradeoff between tables or two hacks I'll take the two hacks.

Hi Tatham,

Looks good. I'll ignore the 'get over it' and move to accept your suggestion
that a couple of hacks are acceptable. My only real issue with hacks is that
they are not future proof.

I see many sites not unlike Virtual Earth hitting the Net very soon. :)

Well done.

RIP Brian Grimmer

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RE: [WSG] Spacing Issue

[Tatham Oddie \(Fuel Advance\)]

Hi there,

I just launched http://www.viavirtualearth.com/ which uses a three column
layout + header. Yes - there are like two CSS hacks to make it work - but
seriously, get over it...

If there's a tradeoff between tables or two hacks I'll take the two hacks.



Thanks,

Tatham Oddie
Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea
www.fueladvance.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Webmaster
Sent: Friday, 12 August 2005 12:22 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Spacing Issue


> > a div-based header/3-column/footer layout that is accessible.

> http://www.google.com/search?q=3+column+accessible+css+layout

> yields some good results...

Sadly not.

The search for a valid CSS/(X)HTML, hack-free, 3-column CSS layout
continues.

I'm still accepting offers for a solution. Even one that requires a
combination of techniques which incorporate a baseline footer and other
goodies.

For those who are interested in using a real world example, please feel free
to replicate my organisation's soon-to-launch site without tables. Now
there's a Web stabdards challenge for you.

http://d81314.i50.quadrahosting.com.au/

You can see I didn't try terribly hard. And, yes, I'm aware that  widths
are deprecated.

But what's a boy to do, eh?

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RE: [WSG] Site Check: VVE

[Tatham Oddie \(Fuel Advance\)]

All,

 

Just a quick ping to say that we've
finished version 0.5 of the site which should include 95% of the feedback I
received on the list.

 

  http://testdrive.fueladvance.com/vve/



 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

Fuel Advance - Ignite Your
Idea

www.fueladvance.com











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tatham
 Oddie (Fuel Advance)
Sent: Tuesday, 2 August 2005 10:58
AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Cc: Tom
 Harvey
Subject: [WSG] Site Check: VVE



 

Guys
n’ gals,

 

In
light of the Broadleaf discussion/brawl the other week, I have a new proposal
for you. In this case, bandwidth was critical due to the existing site’s
traffic base and formed a major design goal.

 

 
http://testdrive.fueladvance.com/vve/


 

There
are still some oddities in IE6, however I have posted to CSS-D about this.

 

What
I was mostly interested in some feedback on was the mark-up, etc… I was
just wondering if anybody had any pointers about how to improve it.

 

Thanks
in advance! And I’ll try not to start a punchup this time. ;-)

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

Fuel Advance - Ignite
Your Idea

www.fueladvance.com

[WSG] Editor Controls

[Tatham Oddie \(Fuel Advance\)]

Hi
all,

 

I’m
looking for some advice on editor controls (like JS controls) for a CMS type ‘thing’
I’m building.

 

Basically,
it needs to be a rich edit control that’s simple for users to use.

 

However:

 


 Must produce XHTML
 Must only produce p, ul, ol, li, a, img, code,
 dl, dt, dd, strong, em, del
 Must only allow the user to format by
 
  bold = 
  italics = 
  strike = <del>
  or a selection of classnames
  that I specify in the configuration
 
 Must allow embedding of images
 Could allow upload of images


 

Any
ideas?

 

Most
of the controls out there seems to generate crappy HTML4 then hack it across to
something that’s mostly XHTML. If I cant find one, I’ll probably
start writing one then make it open source down the track, however I don’t
really have that much time to wait for it.

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea

www.fueladvance.com

 

RE: [WSG] Site Check: VVE

[Tatham Oddie \(Fuel Advance\)]

David,

One of the main advantages of XHTML for us is that we can use XML storage
for the CMS, and just plug this straight into the page. The whole thing is
XML. :-)



Thanks,

Tatham Oddie
Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea
www.fueladvance.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of David Laakso
Sent: Wednesday, 3 August 2005 4:31 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Site Check: VVE

Tom Livingston wrote:

> On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 12:36:39 -0400, David Laakso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
>
>> No, this page  
>> <http://testdrive.fueladvance.com/vve/Dashboard/Default.ashx> is not  
>> breaking in any of my browsers.
>> Regards,
>> David Laakso
>
>
> So, XHTML 1.1 is bad because?
>
Hi Tom,
Tatham has a  good -- readable, usable, accessible, content driven--  
page going. You might say it is 'cool.' I do not know that XHTML 1.1 is 
good or bad. I am asking an academic question: what doctype is best for 
Tatham's 'cool' page?
Regards,
David Laakso

-- 
David Laakso
http://www.dlaakso.com/


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RE: [WSG] Site Check: VVE

[Tatham Oddie \(Fuel Advance\)]

Peter,

> Is there an issue that XHTML 1.1 should be served as media type
> application/xhtml+xml and should not be served as text/html?

Correct.

However, if you send IE6 application/xhtml+xml it doesn't think it's a web
page and shows the file download window instead.

By the same token, if you send Firefox text/html and an XHTML1.1 doctype you
fall back into quirks mode.

Solution? Send IE6 text/html, and all other browsers application/xhtml+xml.
This needs to be done via server-side sniffing, which is exactly how we've
implemented it. Fire up an HTTP sniffer and do the request in IE6 and FF1
and watch what happens.



Thanks,

Tatham Oddie
Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea
www.fueladvance.com


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RE: [WSG] Site Check: VVE

[Tatham Oddie \(Fuel Advance\)]

David,

> Tidy Online will eliminate all the white space on your file.

The page is dynamically generated, hence all the weird tabbing that steps in
an out. I'll get a server side filter working shortly that does that kind of
stuff.

> Why are you using XHTML 1.1?

Why not? Am I missing something newer or cooler?



Thanks,

Tatham Oddie
Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea
www.fueladvance.com



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[WSG] Site Check: VVE

[Tatham Oddie \(Fuel Advance\)]

Guys
n’ gals,

 

In
light of the Broadleaf discussion/brawl the other week, I have a new proposal
for you. In this case, bandwidth was critical due to the existing site’s
traffic base and formed a major design goal.

 

 
http://testdrive.fueladvance.com/vve/


 

There
are still some oddities in IE6, however I have posted to CSS-D about this.

 

What
I was mostly interested in some feedback on was the mark-up, etc… I was
just wondering if anybody had any pointers about how to improve it.

 

Thanks
in advance! And I’ll try not to start a punchup this time. ;-)

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

Fuel Advance - Ignite
Your Idea

www.fueladvance.com

RE: [WSG] Site Check: Broadleaf

[Tatham Oddie \(Fuel Advance\)]

Mugur,

 

> I hope you are
not upset with me.

 

Not at all. J

 

I just fail to
understand people who are concerned about pages under 150k. Until about 2 years
ago, 50k was my limit. However since then, I’ve been happy to add about
50k per year to that limit in line with the uptake of broadband, at least in Australia.
Across numerous websites, I’ve never actually had a complaint from a user
/ client, only from lists such as this where people impose limits without
thinking about how networks are evolving.



 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea

www.fueladvance.com











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mugur Padurean
Sent: Monday, 25 July 2005 5:25 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Site Check:
Broadleaf



 

Your absoutely right when
you say our creativy shoud not be restricted by any means. 
Still, the comment i made was targeted at half of your image that looks to me
that coud "go" safey without affecting your overal design. I'm
talking about the part behind the content. No offence but at this point it
looks more like a wallpaper to me (in size at least).

However this is your choice and in no way am I trying to be critical on that
issue, afterall, design it's a subtle thing and i may not read your message
right this time. I just expressed a "not very well expained" opinion,
nothing more. I hope you are not upset with me.



On 7/25/05, Tatham Oddie (Fuel Advance) < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:



Mugur,

 

This article only discusses reducing the HTML
size… which if you take a look at the site is already rather anorexic.
Loading an image once, caching it for potentially weeks, and not loading
anything other than small HTML pages as they browse the rest of the site seems
like the smartest way it's going to happen.

 

Basically, unless there's some fancy new way
to encode the image, I don't see any point is destroying an otherwise good
design that our VCD team has generated for the sake of saving a few seconds
once-off.

 

Yes – I think 120kb is big (not huge
though). If there is a way to make it smaller, feel free to suggest and I'll
implement. Otherwise, the speed of an extreme minority of our user base
shouldn't restrict how we work.

 

Also, I'm not 'assuming' as you suggest
– we have bandwidth stats from the current broadleaf.com.au site to
suggest that narrowband isn't a significant concern.

 



 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham
 Oddie 

Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea 

www.fueladvance.com











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf
Of Mugur Padurean
Sent: Monday, 25 July 2005 3:48 PM




To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG]
Site Check: Broadleaf







 

Sorry, but quoting Microsoft page as good design
example is not a good ideea. No web page that big IS a good ideea.
Maybe this will help you:

http://www.stopdesign.com/articles/throwing_tables/

The purpose of the article it's slightly different but it's a very good
motivator for small size web pages.
Also asuming that your clients will not care or will not be affected by a web
page size does not sound to me like a good business atitute.

I have no intention to annoy you or to start a rant. It's just just that i'm on
ADSL connection ... half the planet away. And big pages load slowly, almost as
dial-up (or so it feels).



On
7/25/05, Tatham
 Oddie (Fuel
Advance) < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:



Edward,

 

Thanks for your input, however we didn't
really consider this a big issue as:

 


 most of the
 target market will be on office internet connections and ADSL is basically
 a minimum for such people in Australia


 


 the image is only
 downloaded once, and will be reused in the content pages, just with
 different column layouts


 


 because the image
 is only downloaded once, only the first page hit will be slow – and
 first page hit occurs because users are after something on your site -
 they are prepared to wait a bit longer to get it; keeping tight page sizes
 is more critical when moving around a site in which case we're only about
 4k total


 


 because the image
 is loaded through CSS, all of the content will be positioned and usable
 anyway before the background clogs the connection – just that a few
 seconds later the thing will start to look good as well


 


 many larger sites
 are starting to acknowledge all of these points as well:


 


 
  microsoft.com home page
  is pushing 140k
  sxc.hu home page is pushing 107k
  yahoo.com.au home page is
  pushing 167k
  ninemsn.com home page is
  pushing 136k
  news.com.au home page is
  pushing 383k
 




 

Thanks,

 

Tatham
 Oddie

Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea

www.fueladvance.com 











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf
Of Edward 

RE: [WSG] Site Check: Broadleaf

[Tatham Oddie \(Fuel Advance\)]

Edward,

 

The full stylesheet is
only served for media=”screen”. For media=”print” and
media=”handheld” they currently just get the raw page, which due to
the mark-up works quite well anyway.

 

Is this what you mean
at all?

 



 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea

www.fueladvance.com











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Edward Clarke
Sent: Monday, 25 July 2005 5:08 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Site Check:
Broadleaf



 

The problem is
you’re designing for a technology [DSL],
not accessibility. May I suggest a handheld stylesheet to alleviate some of the
problem with a large media screen footprint?

 





Edward Clarke

ECommerce and Software
Consultant

 

TN38 Consulting

http://blog.tn38.net

 

Creative Media Centre

17-19 Robertson Street

Hastings

East Sussex

TN34 1HL

United Kingdom



 

RE: [WSG] What not to do for colour blind users

[Tatham Oddie \(Fuel Advance\)]

There's a good article here:

http://jfly.iam.u-tokyo.ac.jp/color/

which goes through all the variations quite well.

 

Thanks,

Tatham Oddie
Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea
www.fueladvance.com


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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

RE: [WSG] Site Check: Broadleaf

[Tatham Oddie \(Fuel Advance\)]

Mugur,

 

This article only
discusses reducing the HTML size… which if you take a look at the site is
already rather anorexic. Loading an image once, caching it for potentially
weeks, and not loading anything other than small HTML pages as they browse the
rest of the site seems like the smartest way it’s going to happen.

 

Basically, unless
there’s some fancy new way to encode the image, I don’t see any point is
destroying an otherwise good design that our VCD team has generated for the
sake of saving a few seconds once-off.

 

Yes – I think 120kb is
big (not huge though). If there is a way to make it smaller, feel free to
suggest and I’ll implement. Otherwise, the speed of an extreme minority of our
user base shouldn’t restrict how we work.

 

Also, I’m not ‘assuming’
as you suggest – we have bandwidth stats from the current broadleaf.com.au site
to suggest that narrowband isn’t a significant concern.

 



 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea

www.fueladvance.com











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mugur Padurean
Sent: Monday, 25 July 2005 3:48 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Site Check:
Broadleaf



 

Sorry, but quoting
Microsoft page as good design example is not a good ideea. No web page that big
IS a good ideea.
Maybe this will help you:

http://www.stopdesign.com/articles/throwing_tables/

The purpose of the article it's slightly different but it's a very good
motivator for small size web pages.
Also asuming that your clients will not care or will not be affected by a web
page size does not sound to me like a good business atitute.

I have no intention to annoy you or to start a rant. It's just just that i'm on
ADSL connection ... half the planet away. And big pages load slowly, almost as
dial-up (or so it feels).



On 7/25/05, Tatham Oddie (Fuel Advance) <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
wrote:



Edward,

 

Thanks for your input, however we didn't
really consider this a big issue as:

 


 most of the
 target market will be on office internet connections and ADSL is basically
 a minimum for such people in Australia


 


 the image is only
 downloaded once, and will be reused in the content pages, just with
 different column layouts


 


 because the image
 is only downloaded once, only the first page hit will be slow – and first
 page hit occurs because users are after something on your site - they are
 prepared to wait a bit longer to get it; keeping tight page sizes is more
 critical when moving around a site in which case we're only about 4k total


 


 because the image
 is loaded through CSS, all of the content will be positioned and usable
 anyway before the background clogs the connection – just that a few
 seconds later the thing will start to look good as well


 


 many larger sites
 are starting to acknowledge all of these points as well:


 


 
  microsoft.com home page
  is pushing 140k
  sxc.hu home page is pushing 107k
  yahoo.com.au home page is
  pushing 167k
  ninemsn.com home page is
  pushing 136k
  news.com.au home page is
  pushing 383k
 




 

Thanks,

 

Tatham
 Oddie

Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea

www.fueladvance.com 











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf
Of Edward Clarke
Sent: Monday, 25 July 2005 3:08 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Site Check:
Broadleaf



 

I suspect the 120Kb footprint of the
background image is of more concern to most visitors.

 





Edward Clarke

ECommerce and Software Consultant

 

TN38 Consulting

http://blog.tn38.net 

 

Creative Media Centre

17-19 Robertson Street

Hastings

East Sussex

TN34 1HL

United Kingdom











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf
Of Matthew Vanderhorst
Sent: 24 July 2005
17:52
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG]
Site Check: Broadleaf



 

The design is very nice but the background image of the tree repeats.  It is not noticeable until the resolution goes beyond 1024x768.  There were some css validation errors as well (http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?profile="">).


 


  





  


 


   



 

RE: [WSG] Site Check: Broadleaf

[Tatham Oddie \(Fuel Advance\)]

Edward,

 

Thanks for your input, however we didn’t really
consider this a big issue as:

 


 most of the target market will
 be on office internet connections and ADSL is basically a minimum for such
 people in Australia


 


 the image is only downloaded
 once, and will be reused in the content pages, just with different column
 layouts


 


 because the image is only
 downloaded once, only the first page hit will be slow – and first
 page hit occurs because users are after something on your site - they are
 prepared to wait a bit longer to get it; keeping tight page sizes is more
 critical when moving around a site in which case we’re only about 4k
 total


 


 because the image is loaded
 through CSS, all of the content will be positioned and usable anyway before
 the background clogs the connection – just that a few seconds later
 the thing will start to look good as well


 


 many larger sites are starting
 to acknowledge all of these points as well:


 


 
  microsoft.com home page is
  pushing 140k
  sxc.hu home page is pushing
  107k
  yahoo.com.au home page is
  pushing 167k
  ninemsn.com home page is
  pushing 136k
  news.com.au home page is
  pushing 383k
 




 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

Fuel Advance
- Ignite Your Idea

www.fueladvance.com











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Edward Clarke
Sent: Monday, 25 July 2005 3:08 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Site Check:
Broadleaf



 

I suspect the 120Kb footprint of the background image
is of more concern to most visitors.

 





Edward Clarke

ECommerce and Software Consultant

 

TN38 Consulting

http://blog.tn38.net

 

Creative Media Centre

17-19
  Robertson Street

Hastings

East Sussex

TN34 1HL

United Kingdom











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Vanderhorst
Sent: 24 July 2005 17:52
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Site Check:
Broadleaf



 

The design is very nice but the background image of the tree repeats.  It is not noticeable until the resolution goes beyond 1024x768.  There were some css validation errors as well (http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?profile="">).



 



 



  

RE: [WSG] Site Check: Broadleaf

[Tatham Oddie \(Fuel Advance\)]

Rowan,

Thanks for your feedback.

> I'd remove all the ">" in each list item and replace this with an image on

> the item bullet points.

Done.

> Also adding a label and/or legend on the search field (and hiding it with 
> CSS if desired) would increase usability.

Done.

> Personally I'd also 'no-repeat' the bg image as it doesn't look as good on

> pages with a lot of content.

Done.

> I just noticed that there is something disabling the scroll-bars. Which is

> not good when the browser window is smaller than the content or the 
> font-size is increased. This makes the site hard to use.

In progress.

> Rowan



Thanks,

Tatham Oddie
Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea
www.fueladvance.com


**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

RE: [WSG] Site Check: Broadleaf

[Tatham Oddie \(Fuel Advance\)]

Matt,

 

I’ve fixed the background, and will reupload
shortly. Unfortunately all of our workstations are widescreen laptops, so while
we run higher res, we’re still only 900px high. Thanks for noticing.

 

Regarding the CSS errors – they are all IE
hacks, and besides having to add extra stylesheet documents I don’t see a
way to make the validator happy. I’m really not interested in the whole
conditional comments thing because they declarations get split up and things
just get confusing. If you know of a similar hack to _property:value; that achieves
the same outcome and validates, please let me know and I’ll change it.

 



 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea

www.fueladvance.com











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Vanderhorst
Sent: Monday, 25 July 2005 2:52 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Site Check:
Broadleaf



 

The design is very nice but the background image of
the tree repeats.  It is not noticeable until the resolution goes beyond
1024x768.  There were some css validation errors as well (http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?profile="">).

Matthew Vanderhorst


Tatham Oddie (Fuel Advance) wrote: 

Hi
all,

 

I’ve just placed the first page of a new site on
our test-drive server:

 

http://testdrive.fueladvance.com/Broadleaf/

 

Which is a redo of:

 

 
http://www.broadleaf.com.au/

 

There is also a mock up which shows how it is meant to
look:

 

http://fueladvance.com/broadleaf/HomePagePreview.jpg

 

I have tested in IE6 and FF1.0.6PC and it seems to
work fine. If a few of you could take a look in other browsers that’d be
great.

 

Also, any design / coding suggestions would be greatly
appreciated. J

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham
 Oddie



Fuel Advance
- Ignite Your Idea

www.fueladvance.com



 

 



 No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.4/57 - Release Date: 7/22/2005  

[WSG] Site Check: Broadleaf

[Tatham Oddie \(Fuel Advance\)]

Hi
all,

 

I’ve
just placed the first page of a new site on our test-drive server:

 

http://testdrive.fueladvance.com/Broadleaf/

 

Which
is a redo of:

 

  http://www.broadleaf.com.au/

 

There
is also a mock up which shows how it is meant to look:

 

http://fueladvance.com/broadleaf/HomePagePreview.jpg

 

I
have tested in IE6 and FF1.0.6PC and it seems to work fine. If a few of you
could take a look in other browsers that’d be great.

 

Also,
any design / coding suggestions would be greatly appreciated. J

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

Fuel Advance - Ignite
Your Idea

www.fueladvance.com

 

RE: [WSG] paragraph indent

[Tatham Oddie]

Bert,

>> I wanted to get my paragraphs to indent on a site so I tried the most
>> intuitive thing:
>> p:first-line{padding:1em}

> How about
> p { text-indent: 1em }

This will indent the whole paragraph, while Alan is only trying to indent
the first line.



Thanks,

Tatham Oddie
Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea
www.fueladvance.com


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The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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RE: [WSG] Flash and valid XHTML

[Tatham Oddie]

Erwin,

What's wrong with satay? Why do you need something else?



Thanks,

Tatham Oddie
Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea
www.fueladvance.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Erwin Heiser
Sent: Thursday, 30 June 2005 3:16 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Flash and valid XHTML

Hi all,

So far I¹ve been able to avoid using Flash but a site I¹m working on uses a
few flash elements (like a slideshow).
I¹ve been googling around but besides the alistapart article on Flash-Satay
I¹ve not been able to find another method of embedding flash in a page so
that it still validates.
Does anyone with more flash experience have any suggestions?
(I'd like the pages to validate to XHTML Strict or Transitional)
Thanks in advance,
Erwin Heiser


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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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[WSG] Vertical Positioning

[Tatham Oddie]

Guys
/ girls,

 

I’m
having some problems with the vertical positioning on www.whatcanido.com.au. Basically the
content area is restricted to a maximum height of 600px, and after that I want
it be vertically centred on the page. I’m aware of numerous ways to do
this (implemented it on www.e-oddie.com)
however I can’t actually get any of them to work reliably.

 

You’ll
need to look at the page on a higher resolution (1280x1024 or up) to see what I
mean. To see what I want to achieve, try adding a margin-top rule to the html
selector.

 

(IE
is completely stuffed in this regard – if anybody has an idea of how I might
be able to start fixing this let me know)

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

 

Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea

www.fueladvance.com

 

RE: [WSG] 'strong' as class name

[Tatham Oddie]

Tee,

You've got the wrong selector. Use:

strong
{
font: 1em bold #369 Arial, San Serif
text-transform: uppercase;
text-decoration: none;
}


Or consult the SelectORacle:

http://penguin.theopalgroup.com/cgi-bin/css3explainer/selectoracle.py



Thanks,

Tatham Oddie
Fuel Advance - Ignite Your Idea
www.fueladvance.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of tee
Sent: Sunday, 26 June 2005 5:12 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] 'strong' as class name

I named a class as 

.strong {
font: 1em bold #369 Arial, San Serif
text-transform: uppercase;
text-decoration: none;}

But it does work except the 'bold'. I am curious if the  deserved
for xxx only. The reason I want to name that class as
'strong' is because it suits the purpose for the elements I want it be bold,
but I want it to have different typeface and font size and color.

Thanks!

tee

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RE: [WSG] Preventing scrolling

[Tatham Oddie]

Philippe,

This is within a container which has top:200px;bottom:150px; (or so)...



Thanks,

Tatham Oddie
Technical Director, Fuel Advance
www.fueladvance.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Philippe Wittenbergh
Sent: Tuesday, 21 June 2005 4:45 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Preventing scrolling


On 21 Jun 2005, at 3:04 pm, Tatham Oddie wrote:

> div
>   {
>   width: 200px;
>   height: 100%;
>   overflow: hidden;
>   }

height:100% - 100% of what ?
if the parent container has no height declared, the 100% will default 
to auto, and all the content will be visible.

what you probably want is setting some height in em/px/km/
then your overflow:hidden will have some effect.

If I'm wrong, please provide a test case (url).

Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh
<http://emps.l-c-n.com/>

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RE: [WSG] Preventing scrolling

[Tatham Oddie]

Patrick,

I'll clarify... basically on whatcanido.com.au we have article teasers -
they have to fill a particular area of the screen (and this can change on
the fly client side). We don't want the teasers to ever scroll.

So, our solution is to have the "read full article" link at between the
heading and the teaser. Then we just have a really long teaser in a div with
overflow:hidden. The bigger their window/screen/resolution, the bigger the
box, the bigger the teaser.

The accessibility side-effect is that they get a really long teaser.

We couldn't think of a better way to handle changing resolutions on the site
nicely. Any suggestions?
 

Thanks,

Tatham Oddie
Technical Director, Fuel Advance
www.fueladvance.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Patrick Lauke
Sent: Tuesday, 21 June 2005 6:34 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Preventing scrolling

> Tatham Oddie

> Lots and lots of content which we never expect 
> to fit in the box and we just want to be cut off.
> However, we only want them to be able to see what
> ould fit in the box. So, we need to stop them
> from being able to click in the box and use their scroll
> wheel. Another way they could see all the content is 
> by selecting what they can see and dragging down.
> What's the best way from stopping this from scrolling?

Am I the only one that thinks this sort of thing goes
directly against tenets of usability and accessibility?
I'm not sure about the context, but would it not be possible
to implement some word counting / limiting on the server
(assuming this is a template for a content management
system or similar)?

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk
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[WSG] Preventing scrolling

[Tatham Oddie]

Hi everyone,

I currently have a problem something like this:

div
{
width: 200px;
height: 100%;
overflow: hidden;
}


Lots and lots of content which we never expect to fit in the
box
and we just want to be cut off. However, we only want them
to be
able to see what would fit in the box. So, we need to stop
them
from being able to click in the box and use their scroll
wheel.
Another way they could see all the content is by selecting
what
they can see and dragging down.


What's the best way from stopping this from scrolling?

- javascript?

- a nested div which contains the content, positioned with fixed positioning
so even if they scroll the outer div nothing actually changes visually
(would this work? I haven't tested it)

- something else?



Thanks,

Tatham Oddie
Technical Director, Fuel Advance
www.fueladvance.com



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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

RE: [WSG] CDATA

[Tatham Oddie]

Roberto,

The comment structure you are talking about (/**/) is a CSS comment, and has
not effect on the XML document.

In your example the validator will see the CDATA as containing:

*/
@import "CSS/mainStyles.css";
/*

The only characters in the  block not enclosed with the CDATA are the
slashes which are safe to have there. So, the validator is happy.

When the XML has been parsed by the browser, the contents of the CDATA is
expanded, so that the value of the <style> node in the XML parse tree is
now:

/**/
@import "CSS/mainStyles.css";
/**/

Once the CSS parser kicks in, the first and last lines will be simply
considered as empty comments. So, the CSS parser is happy.


Thanks,

Tatham Oddie
Technical Director, Fuel Advance
www.fueladvance.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [<a  rel="nofollow" href="mailto:[EMAIL">mailto:[EMAIL</a> PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Roberto Gorjão
Sent: Monday, 20 June 2005 10:19 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] CDATA

P.S.: I’m sorry… I was referring myself to style and script declarations 
like this one:

<style type="text/css">
/*<![CDATA[*/
@import "CSS/mainStyles.css";
/*]]>*/


---
Roberto Gorjão wrote:

> Hello,
>
>
> I know that CDATA was discussed just some days ago, but I'm still in 
> doubt...
> Is there the need to use it with the transitional XHTML DTD?
> Does anybody know if it really functions when surrounded by comment 
> tags? Because the W3C recommendation does not mention them.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Roberto
>
> **
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
>
>
>
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[WSG] Form layout issues

[Tatham Oddie]

Guys n’ gals,

 

I’m having some quirky layout issues
with http://survey.whatcanido.com.au/
specifically starting on page two of the survey, Questions2.fuel. The issues
are pretty clearly visible. Any assistance with generally improving the pages
would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

 

Technical Director, Fuel Advance

www.fueladvance.com

 

RE: [WSG] Signature markup

[Tatham Oddie]

Ok... Thanks for your help. I was just checking there wasn't some funky
über-geeky new way of doing it... If I'm smacking all my neighbours and
clients over the head about semantic mark-up I want to make sure I'm doing
it properly.



Thanks,


Tatham Oddie

Technical Director, Fuel Advance
www.fueladvance.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of john
Sent: Monday, 30 May 2005 9:18 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Signature markup

I'd have to agree.  It's not a list, and shouldn't be marked up as one. 
  It's a single paragraph with a line break.  Looks pretty 
straight-forward if you ask me.

~john
_
Dr. Zeus Web Design
http://www.DrZeus.net
"content without clutter"




on 5/30/2005 11:10 AM Joshua Street said the following:
> On Mon, 2005-05-30 at 20:06 +1000, Tatham Oddie wrote:
>> This just looks hideous:
>> 
>>  
>>  All the best,
>>  Tatham Oddie
>>  
> 
> Really?  That's a shame, because I have a feeling that's correct.
> They're not in separate paragraphs, but they are on separate lines, and
> are therefore separated by a line break (yeah, I know,  is
> theoretically semantically null... shrug!)
> 
> Looks okay to me...
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Joshua Street
> 
> base10solutions
> Website:
> http://www.base10solutions.com.au/
> Phone: (02) 9898-0060  Fax: (02)
> 8572-6021
> Mobile: 0425 808 469
> 
> Multimedia  Development  Agency
> 
> 
> 
> E-mails and any attachments sent from base10solutions are to be regarded
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> from our accounts are free of viruses, we encourage recipients to
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> base10solutions accepts no responsibility for loss or damage caused by
> the contents of this e-mail. 
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[WSG] Hardcore CSS problems - http://testdrive.whatcanido.com.au/

[Tatham Oddie]

Guys n’ gals,

 

I have a fairly hardcore CSS implementation in the
works… and it’s almost there. However, I’m having a few minor
bugs. Guess where? Did I hear you say IE6Win? *applause*

 

Basically:


 The cap on the bottom block
 is positioned incorrectly.
 Any text in the bottom block,
 or bottom right nav can’t be selected – it seems there is
 something sitting on top of it.
 The logo top-left can’t
 be clicked – it seems there is something sitting on top of it.
 The buttons top-right
 can’t be clicked – it seems there is something sitting on top
 of them.


 

The URL is: http://testdrive.whatcanido.com.au/

 

The best rendering currently occurs in FF1.0.4.

 

Optimisation hasn’t been started yet – so
don’t complain too loudly about the load times. On that not however, if
anyone has some good ideas on how to cut some bloat out, please let me know.

 

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

 

Technical Director, Fuel Advance

www.fueladvance.com

 

[WSG] Signature markup

[Tatham Oddie]

Guys n' gals,

What would be the best way to mark-up something like:

All the best,
    Tatham Oddie

They aren't really separate paragraphs so this is wrong:

All the best,
    Tatham Oddie

This just looks hideous:


All the best,
        Tatham Oddie


This seems like misuse (but looks visually perfect with no extra CSS):


All the best,
        Tatham Oddie


Any ideas? opinions?



Thanks,

Tatham Oddie

Technical Director, Fuel Advance
www.fueladvance.com


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RE: [WSG] Opening links in new window with XHTML

[Tatham Oddie]

I agree with using transitional to port existing
sites…  But for totally new sites I’m either in or I’m
out – no point going halfway.

 

I think I’ll just leave it and they can use the
middle-click if they want…

 

 

 

Thanks all,

Tat

 

 









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of designer
Sent: Monday, 4 April 2005 12:41
AM
To: webstandards group
Subject: Re: [WSG] Opening links
in new window with XHTML



 



Hi Tatham,





 





Of course, if you make it XHTML1.0 transitional, it'll be
fine!  





 





http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">





 





(Do you need the strict 1.1 in this case?)





 





Bob McClelland,
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk







- Original Message - 





From: Tatham Oddie 





To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org






Sent: Sunday, April 03,
2005 3:02 PM





Subject: [WSG] Opening
links in new window with XHTML





 



All,

 

I’m trying to have a link open in a new window (like
I’ve done a million times)… however the validator doesn’t
like this.

 

If we don’t have the target attribute how are we
supposed to do it now? Or aren’t we supposed to do it – and leave
it up to the use agent?

 

This
page is not Valid XHTML 1.1!

Below are
the results of attempting to parse this document with an SGML parser. 

1.  Line 121, column 76: there
is no attribute "target"

.../" title="Australian Alpine Club"
target="_blank">

 

 

Tat

 

 

[WSG] Opening links in new window with XHTML

[Tatham Oddie]

All,

 

I’m trying to have a link open in a new window (like
I’ve done a million times)… however the validator doesn’t like
this.

 

If we don’t have the target attribute how are we
supposed to do it now? Or aren’t we supposed to do it – and leave
it up to the use agent?

 

This
page is not Valid XHTML 1.1!

Below are
the results of attempting to parse this document with an SGML parser. 

1.  Line 121, column 76: there
is no attribute "target"

.../" title="Australian Alpine Club"
target="_blank">

 

 

Tat

 

 

RE: [WSG] Scrolling layout problem

[Tatham Oddie]

All,

Ok... we're getting somewhere on our end - so status update:

I've uploaded a new version to the test-drive server
(http://testdrive.fueladvance.com/Perisher/Default.aspx).

The remaining issues are:

- mountains in bottom left corner won't sit under in any browser

- scrolling isn't working in IE6

I haven't started testing any other browsers yet, so some quick checks in
that department would be nice too please.


Thanks! Tat


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tatham Oddie
Sent: Sunday, 3 April 2005 11:07 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Scrolling layout problem

Bert,

That fixed the scrollbar issues... thanks.

I'm not too worried about wheel scrolling. I use Firefox 24/7 - so it's not
that I don't care about the browser. Just that I'd prefer to get the bug
fixed (or fix it myself).


Tat


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bert Doorn
Sent: Sunday, 3 April 2005 10:47 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Scrolling layout problem

G'day

> The URL is: http://testdrive.fueladvance.com/Perisher/Default.aspx
...
> * The horizontal scroll bar shouldn't be there

Can't help with the other issues right now, but use overflow:auto 
instead of overflow:scroll on your div#content

One thing to bear in mind is that "overflowing" divs can't be 
scrolled with the mouse wheel in Firefox/Mozilla.  Quite annoying 
- it's a bug that's been with us for a long time (and doesn't 
look like going away any time soon).

You could play with margins on , and a background on  
and forget the div, so people can still scroll with the 
mousewheel in Gecko based browsers

Regards
-- 
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

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RE: [WSG] Scrolling layout problem

[Tatham Oddie]

Bert,

That fixed the scrollbar issues... thanks.

I'm not too worried about wheel scrolling. I use Firefox 24/7 - so it's not
that I don't care about the browser. Just that I'd prefer to get the bug
fixed (or fix it myself).


Tat


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bert Doorn
Sent: Sunday, 3 April 2005 10:47 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Scrolling layout problem

G'day

> The URL is: http://testdrive.fueladvance.com/Perisher/Default.aspx
...
> * The horizontal scroll bar shouldn't be there

Can't help with the other issues right now, but use overflow:auto 
instead of overflow:scroll on your div#content

One thing to bear in mind is that "overflowing" divs can't be 
scrolled with the mouse wheel in Firefox/Mozilla.  Quite annoying 
- it's a bug that's been with us for a long time (and doesn't 
look like going away any time soon).

You could play with margins on , and a background on  
and forget the div, so people can still scroll with the 
mousewheel in Gecko based browsers

Regards
-- 
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

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[WSG] Scrolling layout problem

[Tatham Oddie]

Guys n’ girls,

 

Having some small problems with a Ski website I’m
working on – and some assistance would be great.

 

The URL is: http://testdrive.fueladvance.com/Perisher/Default.aspx

 

The problems are:


 We’re missing the nice
 sexy rounded corners top-left and top-right
 The horizontal scroll bar
 shouldn’t be there
 The text should go over the
 mountains bottom-left
 It is totally broken in IE6


 

So far I’ve only tested in FF1.0.2 and IE6/Win. IE6/Win
is tragic. Once I get the FF version working I’ll hack it down for other
browsers where required.

 

It’s getting quite frustrating.

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

 

Technical Director, Fuel Advance

www.fueladvance.com

 

RE: [WSG] Site Review: testdrive.fueladvance.com

[Tatham Oddie]

Thanks Peter…

 

Just to make it
clear – that P tag isn’t always empty, it’s where messages
like “Invalid Credentials” appear. I should make the whole element
dynamic rather than just the content.



It certainly isn’t
there for any presentation reason – I’ll look into what happens when
I make the whole thing dynamic.

 

 

Tat

 









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Peter J. Farrell
Sent: Wednesday, 23 March 2005
1:45 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Site Review:
testdrive.fueladvance.com



 

Tatham Oddie
wrote:
 I've learned that artificial intelligence is no match for natural
stupidity.

-- 

All,

 

Without out taking up too much of
your time, it’d be great if you could take a look at http://testdrive.fueladvance.com/
and let me know anything that leaps in your face as bad.

 

Please be brutal.

 

I’m hoping there won’t
be too much of a beating, but if there is I’d prefer to do it now before
we dump in all the content and move to production.

 

(PS. Notice the XHTML1.1 validating
ASP.NET? J)

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

Tatham
 Oddie

Fuel Advance

www.fueladvance.com

My local version of Tidy is complaining about the
empty  tag on line 77 on the main page - it's just a warning however.



  <div class="contentBlock">  <h2>Extranet Loginh2>  <fieldset> <label>Extranet Loginlabel> <p>  p> <div>


REFERENCE: http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/text.html#edef-P
W3C:
"We discourage authors from using empty P elements. User agents should ignore empty
P elements."
However when I strip it - your content boxes no long line up in FF.



-- Peter J. Farrell :: Maestro Publishing blog    :: http://blog.maestropublishing.comemail   :: [EMAIL PROTECTED]phone   :: 651-204-0513

RE: [WSG] Site Review: testdrive.fueladvance.com

[Tatham Oddie]

David,

Thanks for taking the time to look.

I had totally forgotten to test font-zooming (too excited to launch it) so
I'll look into this.

As for the alt text - there's no image! If you take a look at the HTML it is
just a series of H1 and H2 elements. The image replacement is done totally
using CSS.

What were the HTML errors you found?


Thanks again!


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Laakso
Sent: Wednesday, 23 March 2005 11:29 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Site Review: testdrive.fueladvance.com

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 10:34:38 +1100, Tatham Oddie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:
> Without out taking up too much of your time, it'd be great if you could  
> take
> a look at http://testdrive.fueladvance.com/
[...]
Nice, clean, and simple. Setting font-size 0.9em on the body is doing a  
number in IE on zoom. To avoid that bug use %, preferably
100% or 100.01%.  Those of us who can't remember our 40th birthday party  
will be grateful. There seems to be no alt text for the title, and the  
navigation breaks a bit too early on zoom. There's a need to correct some  
HTML errors.
> Tatham Oddie
Best,
David



-- 
de gustibus non est disputandum
http://www.dlaakso.com/

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RE: [WSG] Site Review: testdrive.fueladvance.com

[Tatham Oddie]

Ok... tad embarrassed right now.

Not that this is my staging location - so I upload to it every few minutes.
It *was* working... I emailed you... I broke it... you looked.

Now works again - I think.

Do you mind checking the XHTML compliance again for me?


Thanks!


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Connolley
Sent: Wednesday, 23 March 2005 11:09 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Site Review: testdrive.fueladvance.com


On 22 Mar 2005, at 23:34, Tatham Oddie wrote:

> All,

> Without out taking up too much of your time, it'd be great if you 
> could take a look at http://testdrive.fueladvance.com/ and let me know 
> anything that leaps in your face as bad.

> Please be brutal.

> (PS. Notice the XHTML1.1 validating ASP.NET? J)

Non validating. You have a "" in your supposedly validating XML 
document. You should check the w3c media type recommendations as you 
are sending your document as text/html and it shouldn't be. Perhaps you 
should try HTML 4.01 Strict.

-- 
Paul Connolley - http://shunuk.co.uk/

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RE: [WSG] Site Review: testdrive.fueladvance.com

[Tatham Oddie]

As for the XHTML probs... tad embarrassed right now.

Not that this is my staging location - so I upload to it every few minutes.
It *was* working... I emailed you... I broke it... you looked.

Now works again - I think.

Do you mind checking the XHTML compliance again for me?


Thanks!


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Glenn
Sent: Wednesday, 23 March 2005 11:11 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Site Review: testdrive.fueladvance.com

Other than the 404 errors on some of the menu items (which I assume you 
already knew about :) the only thing I can see is a couple of validation 
issues: 
http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//testdrive.fueladvance.c
om/Default.aspx 
just to do with the html tag

Otherwise looking good.

Glenn

Tatham Oddie wrote:

> All,
>
> Without out taking up too much of your time, itd be great if you 
> could take a look at http://testdrive.fueladvance.com/ and let me know 
> anything that leaps in your face as bad.
>
> Please be brutal.
>
> Im hoping there wont be too much of a beating, but if there is Id 
> prefer to do it now before we dump in all the content and move to 
> production.
>
> (PS. Notice the XHTML1.1 validating ASP.NET? J)
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Tatham Oddie
>
> Fuel Advance
>
> www.fueladvance.com
>

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[WSG] Site Review: testdrive.fueladvance.com

[Tatham Oddie]

All,

 

Without out taking up too much of your time, it’d
be great if you could take a look at http://testdrive.fueladvance.com/
and let me know anything that leaps in your face as bad.

 

Please be brutal.

 

I’m hoping there won’t be too much of a
beating, but if there is I’d prefer to do it now before we dump in all
the content and move to production.

 

(PS. Notice the XHTML1.1 validating ASP.NET? J)

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

Tatham Oddie

Fuel Advance

www.fueladvance.com

RE: [WSG] Problems with floats in IE

[Tatham Oddie]

All fixed... Check out the site on:

http://members.stansw.asn.au/testdrive/

Thanks all - Stuart in particular - for helping me out on this issue.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Kornel Lesinski
Sent: Thursday, 10 March 2005 9:34 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Problems with floats in IE


>> Stuart, I regret to say Opera7.54u2 is not happy with it.

> fieldset p {
>  clear: both;
> }

BTW: Latest Opera 8 beta has issue with floating fieldsets fixed (well,  
mostly).

-- 
regards, Kornel Lesiski

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RE: Re[2]: [WSG] Problems with floats in IE

[Tatham Oddie]

Stuart,

Thanks for your idea… I’m going to try and get
Chris’ to work first because I think it’s a cleaner solution. If
necessary I’ll fall back to yours though.

 

Chris,

Using clear: left certainly fixes it, but then my forms
stack horizontally across the page. Somehow I need a clear: right or clear:
both rule in there, however both of these break the page.

Any suggestions?

I don’t even understand how the floats are affecting
the left-position of the parent box…

 

Thanks!









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Dawes
Sent: Wednesday, 9 March 2005 1:30
AM
To: Stuart Homfray
Subject: Re[2]: [WSG] Problems
with floats in IE



 

Hello Stuart,

 

Hello Tatham,

 

use clear: left;

 

    /* Sidebar Styles */

fieldset.sidebarBlock,

div.sidebarBlock

{

       display: block;

       

       width: 300px;

 

       float: right;

       clear: left;
<<---

       

       margin: 10px 0 0
15px;

}

 

Wednesday, March 9, 2005, 1:21:18 AM, you wrote:

 

 

> A quick answer would be to create a new left-hand side image with an

> extra 25px(?) of the grey gradient background on the left, and then set

> the horizontal background position to -25px(?) on decent browsers, eg.

 

> Firefox, et al.

>   background-position: -25px 0;

 

> IE6

>   background-position: 0 0;

 

> Maybe use the 'underscore hack' (_background-position: 0 0;) to feed the

>   declaration to IE6 (invalidate your CSS) or use MS conditional comments.

 

> It may not be pretty, there may well be a better way, but it works (at

> least on Firefox and IE6!)

 

> cheers,

 

> Stuart

 

> Tatham Oddie wrote:

>> Hey boys/girls,

>> 

>> Having a small problem with a page (of course the problem is only in

>> IE6)… basically the floated fieldsets are causing the top left corner of

>> the white box to fall out of position. Otherwise everything seems fine.

>> 

>> Would a few people who are good at IE hacks / floats mind looking at:

>> 

>> http://members.stansw.asn.au/testdrive/

>> 

>> Thanks in advance! As always, any other comments are appreciated too.

>>  

>> 

>> Thanks,

>> 

>> Tatham Oddie

>> 

>> Fuel Advance

>> 

 

 

 

 

-- 

Best regards,

 Chrismailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [WSG] centering a page

[Tatham Oddie]

Have a look at how I managed to get it to work on http://e-oddie.com/. This
is the only decent way I've found.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Alan Trick
Sent: Tuesday, 8 March 2005 1:43 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] centering a page

I'm trying to get a page to center vertically and horizontally, it works 
well on IE/win and gecko, but when I checked it on mac, both safari and 
IE/win mess it up.  Any suggestions or links to resources on how to 
center things in the viewport? Here's a link to what I've been working 
with: http://jellybean.uni.cc/creamcheese/become_a_client.html
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[WSG] Problems with floats in IE

[Tatham Oddie]

Hey boys/girls,

 

Having a small problem with a page (of course the problem is
only in IE6)… basically the floated fieldsets are causing the top left
corner of the white box to fall out of position. Otherwise everything seems
fine.

 

Would a few people who are good at IE hacks / floats mind
looking at:

 

http://members.stansw.asn.au/testdrive/

 

Thanks in advance! As always, any other comments are
appreciated too.

 

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

Fuel Advance

 

 

RE: [WSG] Site Review: whatcanido.com.au

[Tatham Oddie]

Paul,

Thanks for the browser help...

In some ways I am also objecting to the way I used the spacers, but think it
was the most elegant solution that I could find. I checked it using Fangs,
and the screen reader output seems perfect. The only other option I could
think of was to use divs or something instead - avoiding the 'paragraph'
information I am currently attaching to them.


Tat


-Original Message-
From: Paul Novitski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, 18 February 2005 12:23 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Site Review: whatcanido.com.au

At 03:40 PM 2/17/2005, Tatham Oddie wrote:
>It'd be greatly appreciated if you could do a site review of 
><http://www.whatcanido.com.au/>www.whatcanido.com.au. Currently there is 
>only a holding page - but I'm interested in what people would have to say 
>about the way I've achieved the text wrapping.
>
>The screen reader output in Fangs seems perfect so I'm happy from the 
>accessibility angle.
>
>I've tested in IE6.0PC and FF1.0PC. Any other browser tests would be 
>appreciated as well.


Tatham,

I think that's a clever way to wrap text around a graphic.  It seems to 
work fine (with text-resizing) in WinXP in Mozilla 1.7.2, Netscape 7.1, and 
Opera 7.23.

I know some folks (including perhaps myself) will object to your use of the 
CSS equivalent of spacer gifs, since they have no semantic content at all, 
but it does work.  I wonder if such objections would fall silent if you'd 
used a column of foreground image slices in staggered widths instead of  
tags?

Paul
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RE: [WSG] Site Review: whatcanido.com.au

[Tatham Oddie]

Great…. Yet not so great…

 

Thanks a lot for your assistance
Carmelyne.

 

 

Tat

 









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Carmelyne Thompson
Sent: Friday, 18 February 2005
11:33 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Site Review:
whatcanido.com.au



 

Looks fine on netscape 7

but this is how it looks like on Opera7.52 
http://wapcss.com/whatcan.gif

- Carmelyne Thompson






 

It’d
be greatly appreciated if you could do a site review of www.whatcanido.com.au. Currently there
is only a holding page – but I’m interested in what people would
have to say about the way I’ve achieved the text wrapping.



 

RE: [WSG] Site Review: whatcanido.com.au

[Tatham Oddie]

Levi,

You read my mind! Yeah - that was the basic reason.

Thanks a lot for the assistance.


Tat


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Levi
Sent: Friday, 18 February 2005 10:54 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Site Review: whatcanido.com.au

Checked in IE 6.x SP2 and FF1.x (pc), loooks good in both. I like the
way you did the text wrapping. Why did you use 9 divs instead of 5
though? you only have 4 lines of text and that empty line. Was it just
so that if the text size was made much smaller it'll still wrap
nicely?



On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:40:23 +1100, Tatham Oddie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  
>  
> 
> Guys n' Gals, 
> 
>   
> 
> It'd be greatly appreciated if you could do a site review of
> www.whatcanido.com.au. Currently there is only a holding page - but I'm
> interested in what people would have to say about the way I've achieved
the
> text wrapping. 
> 
>   
> 
> The screen reader output in Fangs seems perfect so I'm happy from the
> accessibility angle. 
> 
>   
> 
> I've tested in IE6.0PC and FF1.0PC. Any other browser tests would be
> appreciated as well. 
> 
>   
> 
>   
> 
>   
> 
>   
> 
> Thanks! 
> 
>   
> 
>   
> 
> Tatham Oddie 
> 
> Fuel Advance 
> 
>   
> 
> +61 414 275 989 
> 
> callto://tathamoddie
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[WSG] Site Review: whatcanido.com.au

[Tatham Oddie]

Guys n’ Gals,

 

It’d be greatly appreciated if you could do a site
review of www.whatcanido.com.au. Currently
there is only a holding page – but I’m interested in what people
would have to say about the way I’ve achieved the text wrapping.

 

The screen reader output in Fangs seems perfect so I’m
happy from the accessibility angle.

 

I’ve tested in IE6.0PC and FF1.0PC. Any other browser
tests would be appreciated as well.

 

 

 

 

Thanks!

 

 

Tatham Oddie

Fuel Advance

 

+61 414 275 989

callto://tathamoddie

RE: [WSG] Site Review: e-oddie.com

[Tatham Oddie]

Jorge,

 

I’d LOVE to remove that table (as the HTML
comments above it also state) however I never found a way.

 

You may/may not have noticed a separate
thread on this list a few days ago where we attempted to do it with a simple
div solution, but never got there.

 

I need to somehow vertically and
horizontally center the image, then vertically center the text on top of it. If
you have a solution I’d gladly implement it.

 

 

Thanks,

 

Tatham Oddie

 









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jorge Laranjo
Sent: Thursday, 30 December 2004 10:03 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Site Review:
e-oddie.com



 

Hi there!
Nice site!
But why do you use this in the HOMEPAGE ?






You don't need tables in there!
Remove that table and your done !
--
Atentamente,
Jorge Laranjo

site > http://thetaoofwebdesign.tk/
email> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
msn > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
aim > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
jabber > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Em 29/dez/2004, às 21:55, Tatham Oddie escreveu:

Hi all,

I’m now reasonably confident that
the redesign of http://www.e-oddie.com/
is now nearing completion, and would appreciate a review both from a standards
approach and a design approach.

Things to note:
• http://www.e-oddie.com/
should be compliant – it is part of the redesign
• http://www.e-oddie.com/sydneylife/
has some XHTML validation errors due to the way ASP.Net writes out its
server-side forms. I am writing a reusable server module to fix this, although
it isn’t easy and will take a while. So, any form related violations – please ignore
them for now.
• http://www.e-oddie.com/blog/professional/
(linked to throughout the site as ‘Geeky Stuff’) hasn’t be redesigned and it
generated by a blogging tool. I’ll get on to this next, once I have finished
the rest. That way I can copy-paste a lot of CSS and keep it consistent.

Also, some checks in other browsers
would be appreciated. I have yet to get my Virtual PC image running, so I only
have IE6 and FF1 on WinXP to test with.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Tatham Oddie

http://www.e-oddie.com/

[WSG] Site Review: e-oddie.com

[Tatham Oddie]

Hi all,

I’m now reasonably confident that the redesign of http://www.e-oddie.com/ is now nearing
completion, and would appreciate a review both from a standards approach and a
design approach.

Things to note:


 http://www.e-oddie.com/ should be
 compliant – it is part of the redesign
 http://www.e-oddie.com/sydneylife/
 has some XHTML validation errors due to the way ASP.Net writes out its
 server-side forms. I am writing a reusable server module to fix this,
 although it isn’t easy and will take a while. So, any form related
 violations – please ignore them for now.
 http://www.e-oddie.com/blog/professional/
 (linked to throughout the site as ‘Geeky Stuff’) hasn’t
 be redesigned and it generated by a blogging tool. I’ll get on to
 this next, once I have finished the rest. That way I can copy-paste a lot
 of CSS and keep it consistent.


Also, some checks in other browsers would be appreciated. I
have yet to get my Virtual PC image running, so I only have IE6 and FF1 on WinXP
to test with.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Tatham Oddie

http://www.e-oddie.com/

RE: [WSG] centering without hassle - was CSS alignment issues

[Tatham Oddie]

Bob,
Ok... you win. Page is now fixed.
Thanks for your help on this issue - this one page turned out more complex
than most of the entire redesign.

Thanks,
Tatham
www.e-oddie.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of designer
Sent: Monday, 27 December 2004 2:10 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] centering without hassle - was CSS alignment issues

Hi Tatham (and all)

- Original Message - 
From: "Tatham Oddie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ; "'designer'"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 2:19 PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] CSS alignment issues


> Bob,
> Thanks for your help here... I now finally have the page working how I
want.
> As for making the whole world FF-users, if you visit my site from any
other
> browser soon you will be redireted via this page:
> http://www.e-oddie.com/sydneylife/GetFirefox.aspx
> Hopefully that should get some more users switching.
>
> Thanks again,
> Tatham
>

I'm not trying to be 'clever' here, just helpful - but you don't need a
nested table at all. See my revised version of your page at:

http://www.marscovista.fsnet.co.uk/gwelanmor/middle/centering.html

this is xhtml 1 trans (I haven't tried strict)  and it validates. BTW, your
background really is huge - I compressed it in photoshop and it's now 39k.

This is becoming the Christmas teaser, eh? :-)

Bob McClelland,
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk



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RE: [WSG] CSS alignment issues

[Tatham Oddie]

Gunlaug,

Not sure what you mean by: "then your name will end up on the wrong list."
Besides that, I'm a reasonably active Firefox evangelist, not just a
standards evangelist. I'm tossing up on allowing other standards compliant
browsers and it will probably end up heading that way with your suggestion.
Obviously I won't redirect audio browsers (have a blind mate who uses the
site and helps me test accessability).
Would you be happy if I do this:
Opera:  'Get Firefox' button in page footers
Lynx:   'Get Firefox' button in page footers
Mozilla:'Get Firefox' button in page footers
Firefox:Nothing
Safari: 'Get Firefox' button in page footers
Other:  Forced redirect via GetFirefox.aspx

Tatham
www.e-oddie.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Gunlaug Sørtun
Sent: Monday, 27 December 2004 3:25 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS alignment issues

Tatham Oddie wrote:
> ... As for making the whole world FF-users, if you visit my site from
>  any other browser soon you will be redireted via this page: 
> http://www.e-oddie.com/sydneylife/GetFirefox.aspx Hopefully that 
> should get some more users switching.

Be careful with that "any other browser - redirect" thing. It might
backfire...

Make sure you are a bit smarter than your writing indicates.
If standard-compliant browsers gets redirected, then your name will end
up on the wrong list.

Opera-/ Lynx-/ Mozilla-/ Firefox-/ Safari-user - in that order, with a
few more standard-compliant browsers on the sideline.

Sincerely
Georg


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RE: [WSG] CSS alignment issues

[Tatham Oddie]

Bob,
Thanks for your help here... I now finally have the page working how I want.
As for making the whole world FF-users, if you visit my site from any other
browser soon you will be redireted via this page:
http://www.e-oddie.com/sydneylife/GetFirefox.aspx
Hopefully that should get some more users switching.

Thanks again,
Tatham

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of designer
Sent: Sunday, 26 December 2004 11:32 PM
To: webstandards group
Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS alignment issues

Hi Tatham,

- Original Message - 
From: "Tatham Oddie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ; "'designer'"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 12:03 PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] CSS alignment issues


> Bob,
> I really didn't want to use a table - otherwise I would have been able to
> say that there isn't a single table in the whole site. Now I'll just have
to
> talk about the sub-sites... Grr.
> Anyway, the code was a bit more complex than you posted as I had to center
> vertically the text and the block.
> I've updated the verion on http://www.e-oddie.com/ which works in IE, but
> not FF. I just can't seem to make that work. Must be having a complete
> blinder today - as I used to do everything with tables.
> Anyway, I'm telling all my users to get Firefox and I'm a Firefox user so
I
> need to work out this prob.
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks,
> Tatham
---

After writing to you, I thought I'd better check out what I'd said [ :-) ]
so I knocked up this:

http://www.marscovista.fsnet.co.uk/gwelanmor/middle/centering.html

You can see how I've applied some 'content' with a background and some text,
the latter positioned with margins.  The CSS is embedded, for simplicity.
It works in FF, IE6, IE5.5, Opera  . . .

Until all the world becomes FF :-),  there are times when you just
HAVE to use a table, albeit a tiny one . . .

HTH a bit more.

Bob McClelland,
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk

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RE: [WSG] CSS alignment issues

[Tatham Oddie]

Bob,
I really didn't want to use a table - otherwise I would have been able to
say that there isn't a single table in the whole site. Now I'll just have to
talk about the sub-sites... Grr.
Anyway, the code was a bit more complex than you posted as I had to center
vertically the text and the block.
I've updated the verion on http://www.e-oddie.com/ which works in IE, but
not FF. I just can't seem to make that work. Must be having a complete
blinder today - as I used to do everything with tables.
Anyway, I'm telling all my users to get Firefox and I'm a Firefox user so I
need to work out this prob.
Any ideas?

Thanks,
Tatham

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of designer
Sent: Sunday, 26 December 2004 9:41 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS alignment issues

- Original Message - 
From: Tatham Oddie
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 7:36 AM
Subject: [WSG] CSS alignment issues


If you look at the homepage - http://www.e-oddie.com/ - I'm having problems
laying the content out. I'm trying to centre the image on the page both
horizontally and vertically. Then, within the panel, I'm trying to
vertically centre the text. Unfortunately I'm not achieving either and am
getting different results between IE6 and FF1.

--

If you use:

body, html {
 margin  : 0;
 padding  : 0;
 height  : 100%;
}
#layoutgrid{
 display  : table;
 height  : 100%;
 width  : 100%;
}
#layoutgrid td {
 vertical-align : middle;
 text-align  : center;
}

in your css, then:


  
  

  your own stuff goes here. A div, with the text inside and the
background image applied to this div, maybe? 
  


in your markup, it'll work. Using that single cell table is the ONLY way I
know to get centered stuff in IE and FF without resorting to long-winded or
unreliable code.  It depends whether or not you can allow yourself the use
of a table!

HTH,

Bob McClelland,
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk

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RE: [WSG] CSS alignment issues

[Tatham Oddie]

Bert,
Thanks for your help.
I managed to get the text centerred vertically within the panel in FF only,
however never managed to get the panel in the right place too. Also, even
though my subsites arew about to be covered in 'Get Firefox' warnings for IE
users, I need to be cross-browser compliant on my portal page.
If you could save a copy of the page and have a quick fiddle with the source
(the CSS is inline anyway for this page) that would be **extremely** well
appreciated. However, please don't feel pressured that this needs to happen.
As for the use of LI, H1, and H2 elements - I looked back on it and realised
that it probably was a stupid move. I only found out about DL a few weeks
ago and am taking sometime to get into the swing of using it. I've now
implemented this though and it's a much cleaner solution.
As for the background image - it's not finished yet, and I will optimize
more. Trust me, I know about dialup - I'm on it. I can't get broadband where
I am in the mountains west of Sydney.

Thanks,
Tatham

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bert Doorn
Sent: Sunday, 26 December 2004 8:25 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS alignment issues

G'day

>If you look at the homepage - http://www.e-oddie.com/ - I'm having problems
>laying the content out. I'm trying to centre the image on the page both
>horizontally and vertically. Then, within the panel, I'm trying to
>vertically centre the text. Unfortunately I'm not achieving either and am
>getting different results between IE6 and FF1.
>  
>
vertical-align only applies to 'table-cell' elements and in some cases 
inline elements.  Putting vertical-align on a div has no effect (or is 
not supposed to)

You could trick Firefox and Opera 7.5 (and perhaps some Mac/Linux 
browsers Like Safari, Konqueror etc) by setting the html and body 
elements to 100% height, giving body a display:table and panelContainer 
a display of table-cell and vertical-align:middle.  Doesn't have 
vertical centering in MSIE but should still be usable otherwise.  I can 
email you a sample file off-list if you like.

Just  a couple of other comments if I may:

1. Have you thought about using a definition list instead of an 
unordered list with (seemingly misused) h1 and h2 elements?

2. I'd compress the background image.  Takes a long time to load on 
dial-up.  183kB for a background image is a ~bit~ much.  30-40k would be 
better and should be achievable without too much loss of quality.  

Regards
-- 
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

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RE: [WSG] CSS alignment issues

[Tatham Oddie]

David,
I think I'll be avoiding this route anyway as I really want the portal page
to be cross-browser compliant.
The subsites will be sporting Firefox logos, and warnings for IE users.
However, I can't really do that on the very front page.
If you have any suggestions about how I could get this to work in a
cross-browser compliant way (at least IE6 + FF1, others I don't really care
about) they'd be greatly appreciated. I have an extremely negligible number
of non IE6 / FF users in my target audience acording to the stats... I'd
almost prefer to lose the user than waste the time.

Thanks,
Tatham

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David R
Sent: Sunday, 26 December 2004 8:56 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS alignment issues

Bert Doorn wrote:
giving body a display:table and panelContainer
> a display of table-cell and vertical-align:middle.  Doesn't have 
> vertical centering in MSIE but should still be usable otherwise.  I can 
> email you a sample file off-list if you like.

MSIE (all Windows versions, and possibly Mac too) doesn't support any of 
the "display: table*" properties

If it did... then we could just use display: table-cell for fluid 
columnar layouts

-David
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[WSG] CSS alignment issues

[Tatham Oddie]

Hey guys,

Yet another problem with e-oddie.com –
although it’s my first totally CSS site so I’m happy this is only
the third with few more in sight.

If you look at the homepage – http://www.e-oddie.com/ - I’m having problems
laying the content out. I’m trying to centre the image on the page both
horizontally and vertically. Then, within the panel, I’m trying to
vertically centre the text. Unfortunately I’m not achieving either and am
getting different results between IE6 and FF1.

 

Thanks!

 


 
  
  Tatham Oddie
  C# Developer / Analyst
  
  www.e-oddie.com
  [personal/blog]
  www.play47.net [work]
  www.ssw.com.au [work]
  
  
  
  +61 414 275 989
  
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
 


 

RE: [WSG] Float problem in IE6

[Tatham Oddie]

Georg,
Thanks for your help... This got it working first time!

Tatham

-Original Message-
From: Gunlaug Sørtun [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Saturday, 25 December 2004 4:59 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Float problem in IE6

Tatham Oddie wrote:

> Im getting a float problem in IE6 that I dont understand.
> 
> The URL is http://www.e-oddie.com/e-oddie2/.

The problem is known as margin-doubling in IE/win.
"display: inline" will fix that in your case.

On top of that you have also made it a bit tight in there, so IE/win
will drop the main column on narrow window.
A small negative back-margin on the float will help.

> For an idea of how it should display (the problem is pretty obvious)
>  take a look in Firefox.

This should make it hold in IE/win, until the window gets really narrow.
Put it at the bottom of your stylesheet.

@media all {
* html div.blockRight {display: inline; margin-left: -3%;}
}

Georg
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[WSG] Float problem in IE6

[Tatham Oddie]

Hey everyone,

I’m getting a float problem in IE6
that I don’t understand.

The URL is http://www.e-oddie.com/e-oddie2/.

For an idea of how it should display (the
problem is pretty obvious) take a look in Firefox. I haven’t tested it in
any other browsers (don’t have them installed) so any help in that
department would be greatly appreciated.

Any design tips would be greatly
appreciated while we’re at it too (trying to finalise design today).

 

Thanks in advance!

Tatham

RE: [WSG] CSS/Markup Nightmare

[Tatham Oddie]

David,
I've managed to mostly get it working now thanks to the ALA article (why
didn't I look there first...)
I've updated the version at http://www.e-oddie.com/e-oddie2/default.aspx.
I think the markup could still use some improvement but I'm much happier
now.

Thanks,
Tatham 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David R
Sent: Saturday, 25 December 2004 11:59 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS/Markup Nightmare

Hi

My suggestion to achieve the "rounded corners", is to use the 
tried-and-tested method of using "wrappers", but this is hardly ideal.

Another option is to define positioned divs to each of the corners

Hmmm, I've just realised you could hook existing tags:

Say:



   Box Title goes here


   Content, blah!



You could adjust margins and background images to the boxContainer, 
boxHeader, the h2 element, the boxBody, and paragraph element to achive 
the effect

I suggest you read this ALA article:

http://www.alistapart.com/articles/customcorners/

HTH
-David R

Tatham Oddie wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I'm currently having a CSS/markup nightmare. Any help with this would be 
> greatly appreciated.
> 
> The aim is to make my page like the mockup I have - 
> http://www.e-oddie.com/e-oddie2/skins/Summer/Mockup.jpg. However, I'm 
> having a nightmare making the boxes (something I thought would be a 
> simple process).
> 
> I have a sample page at http://www.e-oddie.com/e-oddie2/default.aspx. 
> And the CSS file at http://www.e-oddie.com/e-oddie2/skins/Summer.css.
> 
> Things I'd like to sort out are:
> 
> * The CSS isn't any where near working (obviously)
> * The markup I've used seems like an overkill so I'd like to simplify
it
> 
> Thinks to note are:
> 
> * The markup has to be generic enough that I can create different
>   boxes just by changing the CSS (there are 3 sections with 3
>   different colour schemes to identify them)
> * I'd like to aim for at least 4.01 strict or hopefully XHTML/1.1
>   compliance (preferred)
> 
> In advance, thanks for any help!

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RE: [WSG] CSS/Markup Nightmare

[Tatham Oddie]

Patrick,

Fluid.
The boxes on the right will be a fixed width, and the main content boxes on
the left (which there could be multiples of for different posts, etc) will
fill the rest of the room.

Thanks!

Tatham Oddie
C# Developer / Analyst

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[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: Saturday, 25 December 2004 11:54 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] CSS/Markup Nightmare

Tatham Oddie wrote:

> The aim is to make my page like the mockup I have  
> http://www.e-oddie.com/e-oddie2/skins/Summer/Mockup.jpg. However, Im 
> having a nightmare making the boxes (something I thought would be a 
> simple process).

Fixed or fluid size?


-- 
Patrick H. Lauke
_
redux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com

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[WSG] CSS/Markup Nightmare

[Tatham Oddie]

Hi all,

I’m
currently having a CSS/markup nightmare… Any help with this would be
greatly appreciated.

The aim is
to make my page like the mockup I have – http://www.e-oddie.com/e-oddie2/skins/Summer/Mockup.jpg.
However, I’m having a nightmare making the boxes (something I thought
would be a simple process).

I have a
sample page at http://www.e-oddie.com/e-oddie2/default.aspx.
And the CSS file at http://www.e-oddie.com/e-oddie2/skins/Summer.css.

Things I’d
like to sort out are:


 The CSS isn’t any where near working
 (obviously)
 The markup I’ve used seems like an overkill
 so I’d like to simplify it


Thinks to
note are:


 The markup has to be generic enough that I can
 create different boxes just by changing the CSS (there are 3 sections with
 3 different colour schemes to identify them)
 I’d like to aim for at least 4.01 strict or
 hopefully XHTML/1.1 compliance (preferred)


In advance,
thanks for any help!

 


 
  
  Tatham Oddie
  C# Developer / Analyst
  
  www.e-oddie.com
  [personal/blog]
  www.play47.net [work]
  www.ssw.com.au [work]
  
  
  
  +61 414 275 989
  
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]