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> okay, hi everyone: a short question, i intend it to be, at least.
> is "i" (italic) deprecated in xhtml? and even better, could someone
> point me to a w3c page that talks about what is deprecated in xhtml?
> and, second part of that, why does the validator validate it if it is
> deprecated.
> What is the definition of a CSS driven design ?
You could say that a css-driven site is one that has all or the majority of
presentation removed from the markup and placed in CSS files.
Having said this, I googled the word driven for a definition and found that
it also meant "mobs goaded by bli
> What makes more sense from the accessibility point of view?
> What makes more sense from the semantic point of view?
>
> Or is this just a personal choice and has absolutely no effect
> whatsoever on the end result? Am I over analysing this to death?
>
I wrote a long post on this subject a whi
Hey Jose,
It seems that you are referring to the elements within the
#contentright ?
I don¹t have IE in front of me but there is a known "whitespace bug" to do
with IE and list items.
There are a range of methods that can be used to fix it including:
1. floating the
2. setting the element t
Hi all,
Generally speaking, the WSG list has a great vibe - with members helping
each other and offering advice. However, I have been concerned with a recent
trend on list. There seems to be an element of lecturing, chest beating and
heavy-handed criticism.
Can I ask all members to think of a few
ADMIN THREAD CLOSED
Reasons for closing: The "CSS driven" thread has gone on far too long and
has been dangerously close to flame-wars on several occasions. Time to move
on please.
Please do not reply to this post or continue this thread. If you have a
comment or an issue with the closing of thi
> I have played with margins, padding, text align and text-indent. I even
> removed the float on the container div and the problem persists.
>
> Has anyone encountered this before?
A link to online sample of this problem, stripped back to just the problem
area, and a link to the stripped back css
THREAD CLOSED
The mail list does not cover:
"Discussion of content management/web publishing system issues beyond those
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Log in and go to Edit your login details and mail list subscriptions and set
your preferences to "Ful
The flexibility of the title attribute (as opposed to the title element) can
be seen in the ever-exciting W3 technical reports. Two places that are
always a great read, and full of surprises are the "List of attributes" [1]
and "List of elements" [2].
The list of attributes shows the title and has
> The impression I'm getting from the replies today are "title" as an
> attribute, has inconsistent interpretation by most UA's. However, as
> an element it is essential to the document. Is this interpretation
> correct?
Steve's article would back up your comment that the title attribute is
incons
> It said that 'cite' is an attribute for the source of a blockquote,
> which makes sense. However, when I tried to use it, I saw no
> difference, not something when I hovered the blockquote or right
> clicked.
It is also possible to display the cite attribute using attribute selectors,
(except i
> As a "far-from-guru-status" Web Standards supporter/coder (I try) I have
> witnessed, on this list and on another css-specific list, quite a bit of
> condescending and 'forced-opinion' type of replies. It doesn't make for a
> nice atmosphere when looking to these lists for help.
Completely agree
> Adding a "margin: 0px;" to the H1 element pushed up to the top.
Remember, every time you add units to a "0" value, a web standards fairy
dies. To avoid this on your conscience, simply use "margin: 0;". Apart from
the lives you could save, think of the bandwidth savings!
Russ
Web standards shetl
> Without wanting to unleash too many ponies, I would be interested to know why
> using 0(px | em | %) is so much of a standards blunder. I'm sure there some
> obvious answer but for the life of me, I can't think of one :).
It's definitely not a standards blunder to add units to a "0" value, just
> Just to be clear, unitless non-zero values are appropriate for
> line-height http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#propdef-line-height
> and are generally preferred, since computed values are not inherited.
> http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/line-height-inherit.html
A good point, Felix. Also expl
> Actually, when I examine your css more closely - you are already
> doing this, although you havent applied a width to make the float
> valid...
Apologies for being nitpicky here but a width does not need to be applied to
images that are floated as they already have "intrinsic width".
"A floated
> What I'm looking for is suggestions of better columnar layout in which
> rather than the centre column dropping down, columns stay where they
> should and the browser's horizontal scrollbar appears instead.
This problem is due to IE's rendering of content and containers. Other
browsers honour co
> So I have a question, so even if it's Alt Text, how would a blind person even
> see to read?
Minh,
Apart from screen readers that others have mentioned, there are also devices
such as refreshable braille devices, which transfer text into braille:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/russweakley/58957885
I want to talk today about "respect". For those of you who have not heard of
this concept, "respect" is sometimes defined as "courteous regard for
people's feelings".
When you reply to a post on the list, you should at all times try to do so
with respect. Everyone on this list is entitled to their
ADMIN - THREAD CLOSED
Reason:
There has been a lot of good points raised within this thread, on both
standards and usability. However, we have definitely moved away from
cooperative, useful advice on web standards practices towards strongly held
and vocal personal opinion.
Please do not continue
> There have been a lot of opinions expressed in this thread - lot's of
> valid points and lots of invalid points. However, cutting through the
> maze of details etc leads me to emphasise that when dealing with
> accessibility (for the able as well as the disabled) one should always
> approach web
> people that use the Internet world wide. Consider this: the number of
> people that visit my relatively small site every single day would be
> more people than I've met in my entire life time, so it's hardly...
This could be read in two ways. You have a hugely popular site, or you need
to get o
> I want to use the name of the site in the H1.
>
> Is it appropriate to use the breadcrumb as the H1 element?
I'd say it is better to use the h1 element for the site name as an initial
statement then use something like an ordered list or unordered list for the
breadcrumb:
Site name
M
Do you mean like this?
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/liquid-background/
Russ
> Hi,
>
> Can any one point me to a good example of how to do a css header with a
> background image 100% wide, while having two distinct images on the far
> left and right and they behave in a liquid manner
> Maybe we should take a
> poll to see if the majority want that implemented here. ;-)
THREAD CLOSED
1. Reason for thread closing
We have asked members on numerous occasions if they have problems or
THREAD CLOSED
Please do not reply to this thread - it has already been closed
Russ
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> I'm working on my 4th WordPress template, but cannot figure
> out why the sidebar drops down in IE view. It looks fine in
> Firefox and Opera though. Can someone take a peek at the
> stylesheet and tell this *newbie* what I'm missing?
Hi Artemis,
Rather than a solution, here is a possible method
>
>
> bla bla
> bla
Start by thinking of the path from the body to the element you are trying to
select. In this case the path (we don't know the entire path but
theoretically) would be something like this:
body
div#
> Is the submission form supposed to work? On both Firefox 1.5.0.1 and
> Safari 2.0.3 on Mac OS X 10.4.5 I end up with a blank screen when
> submitting my web site (dynamic using phpWebSite).
>
Try adding "http://"; in front of the web address before submitting. If the
web address doesn't contain
As always, there is no write or wrong, just opinion. To me, a tag cloud is
simply a list of links.
Key issues are:
- Some degree of meaningful link text for screen reader users
- Colour (as mentioned in an earlier post) not used to convey critical info
- Some degree of semantic meaning of gradient
> Me.
I think this would have to go down in WSG history as the best answer EVER!
That aside, the original question was probably a little off topic (and
highly subjective) and should probably be answered off list directly to
Robert.
Russ
**
T
>>
>> I smell troll
> here's me showing my greeny status again... ;) What do they mean when they
> mean when they say that.. :(
Someone who posts controversial or provocative messages in a deliberate
attempt to provoke flames. Normally young and male, as surprising as that
sounds ;)
*
> Not only that the dots look clunky, like a word document user who hasn't yet
> discovered tabs, and so just uses stops or the space bar.
If the dots were essential, they should be created using CSS (definitely
presentational as they are there to help line up the two blocks of content).
This woul
> Buy Now
> Buy Now
> Buy Now
> Buy Now
> Buy Now
This is an elegant solution but has one drawback.
The title attribute is sometimes not supported by screen readers. Even in
screen readers that do support titles, the option is not often turned on due
to lack of knowledge or "information overload"
> If you could cancel the account for me that would be ace!
ADMIN
If you want to unsubscribe or you want help with the mail list, please
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
DON'T email the list with these sort of topics as they go out to 4500 people
who don't really care about your issues. We, on the other
Whatever you do, avoid "CSS in 10 minutes". The author was obviously a
drunken bum who knows nothing. Plus I have heard rumours there will be a CSS
in 9 minutes coming out, so why waste that extra minute!
> On my to-read list, and sitting on my desk, is Pro CSS Techniques. How
> Pro this is though
> Forgive me if I sound defeatist in this, but does anyone have any
> ideas as to how to best markup a film in a webpage in a semantically
> meaningful way?
Without opening another can of worms, there actually *is* a way to add
meaning to films - called SMIL - " Synchronized Multimedia Integration
Hi WSG peoples
Two things to keep in mind - out of office messages and trimming replies.
1. OUT OF OFFICE
---
If you go on holidays and set your "out of the office" message, make sure
you change your mail status so you don't send "out of the office" mail to
the list. To change
Well, technically this is not an acroynm or even a tag. :)
"An acronym is defined as a WORD formed from the initial letters of a
multi-word name. The important point here is that an acronym must be a WORD
- this means that the joined initial letters must be able to be pronounced."
http://www.maxd
Hi all,
Today we have seen a range of unacceptable behaviour on list including rude
or abusive comments, personal attacks and a post to a closed thread.
None of these are acceptable and future offenders will be removed from the
list immediately.
Around 12 months ago I posted about this to the li
Enough with the discussion on off topic on topic.
Causing far to much green house gas emissions.
Thanks
Russ
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> Does anyone have any suggestions for getting elements to "clear"
> floating boxes?
Many options available, including setting all three columns to "float:left"
and the footer to "clear: both". This solves both your column order and
footer issues.
Absolute positioning will always have downsides s
To answer your second question, place the arrow as a background image inside
the li element rather than inline. Gives you more control over placement and
keeps unnecessary images out of markup.
More here on background images in lists:
http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listutorial/introduction.htm
Russ
> One of the issues I wanted to address first was source order versus
> screen arrangement of the various pieces of content. In the current
> So what do you guys think?
There is no right or wrong. There are the two basic arguments.
NAV BEFORE
* theoretically better for Search Engine Optimisation
> Russ, isn't it NAV AFTER that is better for SEO, as the content is at
Ooppps... Completely correct. The two headings should be reversed...
NAV AFTER
* theoretically better for Search Engine Optimisation (as the content is at
the top)
NAV BEFORE
* theoretically better for blind users (it is ea
One method is here
http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listutorial/08.htm
> I searched the archives and could not find an answer to my question...
>
> Is it possible to generate right-aligned lists with CSS and have the bullet on
> the right instead of the left?
>
> TIA!
>
> â devendra â
>
> ***
Trying to align bullets and get some sort of consistency across the various
browsers is hard, as each browser positions them in slightly different ways.
One option is to use background images. This gives you two advantages over
standard html bullets:
1. you can use any sort of bullet you like - a
> So what is the pure transitional doctype:
>
> "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd";> ?
Go to the source:
http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/04/valid-dtd-list.html
So you need to choose:
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd";>
or:
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml
> Something which no one has mentioned is the possible accessibility
> benefits of the extra spacing following the period. My thoughts are that
> the extra spacing will more easily distinguish the sentence for all, but
> particularly those with cognitive disabilities
>
> Unfortunately, I can't fin
> I agree wholeheartedly, one of my pet peeves as well, especially after
> battling it through the early days of desktop publishing in the 80s. This
> isn't a matter of grammar or standards, it's a matter of correct use of
> punctuation.
James, I think you and Chris are missing Lachlan's point.
THREAD CLOSED
Thanks, Paul, for the very detailed information.
However, as Richard has said, all opinions will have now been covered. The
thread has run a very long and winding course.
So, no more on this thread please!
Thanks
Russ
> great comments thus far, but i think we're getting into th
> Basically, my purpose for sending this is to acquire
> more understanding of the purpose of the DTD. Is it
> there to set the rendering mode, or is it, as this
> support person purports, simply a formality?
Go to the source - W3C
Why specify a doctype? Because it defines which version of (X)HT
This Gmail Thread is now closed
Please do not respond to this thread
Reason: it has moved from standards discussion (on the relevance of
accessibility) into arguments and personal stances.
If you have issues with its closure, please contact info@webboy.net offlist
Thanks
Russ
**
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> If it comes up again I'll give that a shot, had to give up and put
> them in tables - the powers that be aren't gonna pay for hours of...
Please do not reply to this post
Russ
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The discussion list for http://webstand
Regardless of what we say in real life or in private emails, swearing on
this list is completely unacceptable, as has been mentioned many times - as
well as being clearly stated in our guidelines.
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The list administrators reserve the right to unsubs
There are a wide range of variations. Each variation will allow you to
target different browsers. Here are some:
@import url(styles.css) not all;
@import url(styles.css) all;
@import url(styles.css) All;
@import "null?\"\{";
@import "styles.css";
@import "null?\"\}";
@import'styles.css';
@import"s
> What's more "in-spec":
>
>
> Or
>
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/intro/sgmltut.html#h-3.2.2
By default, SGML requires that all attribute values be delimited using
either double quotation marks (ASCII decimal 34) or single quotation marks
(ASCII decimal 39). Single quote marks can be included wi
Here is a possible cause and solution to your problem...
Quirky Percentages in IE6's Visual Formatting Model:
http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/percentages.html
Russ
> Hello everyone!
> As my first post I'd like to ask you something technical.
>
> I've got a simple div element with
Hi Scott,
An inline element can have margin and padding applied to it but only left
and right margin/padding will affect other elements. Top and bottom margin
and padding will be ignored.
"Margin properties specify the width of the margin area of a box. The
'margin' shorthand property sets the mar
Hi Levi,
Looks stable in Safari 1.2.4 and Mac/Firefox but the news inner containers
are missing their backgrounds in Mac/IE5.2.8. I can send screenshots offlist
if needed.
The other comments are accessibility ones so take them as you wish - they
may not be part of the mission for this site's audi
> Also, does anyone know of a good web site that details clearly and concisely
> all the main things you should do to make a web site accessible?
The best source is the WAI guidelines. Sites must comply with priority 1,
should comply with priority 2 and may comply with priority 3:
http://www.w3.or
Please do not reply to this post.
Job opportunity: Sydney Australia - Optus
--
POSITION DESCRIPTION
--
3 month contract with possible extension available. Reporting to the
Senior Designer, the Web Designer will be joining the Wireles
ADMIN - THREAD CLOSED
This list is about web standards issues/information sharing/help. It is not
design issues or opinions. There are other lists for that.
If you have a problem with the closing of this thread, please do not reply
to this post, email info@webboy.net to express your views.
Thank
Yep, sounds like a clearing problem. One new declaration to your "#footbar"
ruleset should fix the problem:
#footbar
{
clear: both; /* clears floated items above */
height: 30px;
background: url(pics/slick_blackbar.png);
border-bottom: 1px #fff solid;
border-top: 1px #fff solid
> I hope this is not off topic. If it is, please reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> I am starting to get very fustrated. When I try to use the W3C validator for
> an HTML file, I keep getting the following error.
>
> Line 13, column 53: there is no attribute "alt"
The "a" element does not support the "
>
> Latest News
>
> News Item One
> 20/10/05
> Introduction goes here...
> News Item Two
> 20/10/05
> Introduction goes here...
>
>
>
If you were going to use to mark this information up (and that would
come down to personal preference) I'd agree with this second option. It
would be better
> 2. I have used a modification of one of Russ' tutorials for the #header and
> #subnav - to float the
> menu elements left and right. Is there a cleaner way to achieve this other
> than to apply a class to
> *every* tag?
The most powerful way to achieve this (but not supported by IE) would be to
> I have subsequently used display: none; on the headers. Is this OK, or would
> you recommend your
> suggestion as being more standards-based?
display: none has known issues for screen readers:
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/fir/
The absolute method, which I have since heard referred to as "
Here are some:
Joe Clark's serialised book (covers all three - title, alt and longdesc)
http://joeclark.org/book/sashay/serialization/Chapter06.html
Writing good ALT text (covers all three - title, alt and longdesc)
http://www.gawds.org/show.php?contentid=28
The alt and title attributes (covers
The official Melbourne meetings have ground to a halt late last year with
Dez being flat out with a new job and David running off and getting married
(very selfish of him!).
So, could I ask anyone who is interested in taking over as city organisers
to drop me an email. Also, anyone interested in a
There are two issues to do with abbreviations that have come up on list
today:
1. the distinction between the abbr element and the abbr attribute
2. the difference between abbreviations and acronyms
So, I thought I'd open the can of worms that Patrick mentioned earlier
today
-
> Do you object to a column being a fixed width? I understand your objection
> to a fixed width overall layout, but why object to a column being fixed
> width?
>
> As a side issue to that, if you have a 2 or 3 column layout with background
> colours and all heights to be equal, and you do not know
Hi Ted,
All personal opinion, but the bullet as background image has a lot of
advantages:
- You have far more control over the positioning of the bullet, as you can
set it in any position using a range of units (pixel, ems, percents. You can
even position the bullets under the list items if desire
Apologies all.
The mail server has been rebooted, lets see how we go.
Thanks for your patience
Russ
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The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Can I just add here that Scott Parsons is definitely not the person who's
email address was the problem - although his email post hit the list in
spectacular fashion it was not his fault in any way.
And in case you are wondering who suggested shutting down the whole mail
server... You guessed it,
There are so many ways to do this but I would not use a spacer gif. One way
you could go is:
HTML
http://mysite.com";>My Site
CSS
#masthead { width: 750px; height: 100px; background: blah... }
#masthead a { display: block; width: 750px; height: 100px; }
#masthead span { position: absolute; left
OK, you have an image set in the div as a background, but you want it to
act, to all intents, like a link.
The first thing to do is make the link area the same size as the background
image. This is achieved by converting the element to a block (display:
block) and then giving it a width and heigh
What about users who rely on keyboards but have sight (users with some form
of motor skill or mobility deficiency)?
Visible skip menus can be very important for these users.
A visible skip link allows them to jump over content or navigation
(depending on how the site is set up) and possibly avoid
**
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My apologies for not explaining the thread closure earlier.
I closed the thread due to the aggressive nature of the last post, not due
to the topic of javascript. My concern was that the post could have lead to
a possible flame war and this is definitely something we do not want to see
on this lis
Richard, these are all good questions. The best thing to do as actually
observe real people (with disabilities) interacting with sites.
I have watched blind users and users with severe vision impairment who
become frustrated and leave sites very quickly. They are more likely to
struggle on if the
How about correct rendering of the box model?
The box model is rendered correctly when IE6 is in standard-compliant mode
but renders incorrectly in quirks mode.
Unfortunately, even in standards-compliant mode, IE5 and IE5.5 will render
the box model incorrectly.
Russ
> Might you be kind enough
I completely agree Alan. This is an international list. I am hoping to see a
thriving list of jobs soon with all sorts of positions and countries.
The ball is (almost) in your court. Well, it will be very soon when Peter
gets another bit of time to set it up for all users. Until then, send any
rel
I guess it is up to the WSG members to think about.
The jobs section is definitely NOT for people advertising themselves as
available - it is for "positions vacant".
I do not think it is relevant to post jobs related to SELLING web services,
but it is definitely relevant for anything related to D
Yes, Neerav,
There will be a WE05 in Sydney. It will be about twice as full on as last
year, as we have around 5-6 speakers. More importantly:
1. There will be a strong representation of female speakers (something sadly
missing from last years event)
2. The event will be split into streams, so w
The biggest drawback of absolute positioning is that it is removed from the
normal flow of the document. This means that any other content below will
ignore the absolutely positioned content. For example, a footer may slide up
under and be obscured by two absolutely positioned containers.
Can I su
> In my email, I was originally going to have a third option of floating both
> columns, but when I tested it in Safari the columns sat on top of one
> another instead of side-by-side. What is wrong with my CSS? This is what I
> tried:
Well, for a start, when added together the amounts equal more
Ignore.
I misread your 10px as 10%
Russ = Idiot
> Well, for a start, when added together the amounts equal more than 100%
> which means they will not fit within the browser window - which is 100%. :)
>
> 10 + 45 + 45 + 10 = 110
>
> Also, remember that making the amount exactly 100% is dangero
The Sydney Web Standards meeting went well tonight with about 33 people
present.
Richard Czeiger stepped in at the last minute to talk as John Allsopp was
indisposed.
It was one of Richards first ever presentations, and he handled himself
exceptionally well under some heavy crossfire from Sydney
For those interested, a new web standards book has just hit the shelves:
Web Standards Design Guide
by Kevin Ruse
KEY FEATURES:
* Provides a comprehensive, easy-to-read guide to using the essential Web
standards, including XML, CSS, Accessibility, xForms, and xLink
* Explains where standards come
There are a range of methods of removing whitespace in IE:
1. border-bottom
li { border-bottom: ?; }
2. display: inline - works well if the a element is set to display: block:
li { display: inline; }
3. float
li { float: right; }
li { float: left; }
4. vertical align
li a { vertical-align: bot
As was hinted at by Kim, this is off topic.
THREAD CLOSED
The mail list does not cover
- Non-Web Standards related issues and support
- Detailed software support such as using a browser, installing a server,
installing any tools etc.
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
If you have a
THREAD CLOSED
Please reply to Leigh off-list. This is definitely off-topic - has nothing
to do with web standards.
If you have a problem with the closing of this thread, please do not post to
the list. Instead, email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thanks
Russ
> Hi all
>
> what are the pro's and cons of o
> I think the best bet would be to use id and headers
Grant, I agree totally. In my experience, while scope is easier to use for
developers, as it requires far less individual coding, it is far less
supported than id and header.
Scope also has another major downside. It cannot tie together multip
>> Yes it is. It's also quite dumb.
>
> Respect is rarely dumb. This is no exeption. When the defaults are
> honored, everyone who cares can be a winner.
WARNING
Please do not let this discussion sink any further or the thread will be
closed.
The font size discussion is interesting and releva
> Greetings
> I'm building new website which will only have a photo gallery, so I
> was thinking how can I accomplish it without breaking standards and
> usability...
> please advise
Try some of these:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/definition/dl-image-gallery.htm
http://css.maxdesign.c
ADMIN
Please remember a few basic guidelines:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
- Trim replies where possible
- Code samples are fine, but not full pages of html or css code - much
better to link to these items
The last post was a prime candidate for trimming AND linking!
Russ
>
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The offender was unsubscribed and blocked.
Please do not reply to this or other obscene messages onlist.
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] - do not t
Try these two:
http://nanobox.chipx86.com/browser_support.php
http://www.quirksmode.org/css/contents.html
Russ
> Can somebody please tell me where I can find a chart that shows what
> browsers, if any, don't support "display: table-row" ?
>
> Thanks.
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