[WSG] Why worry of increasing expenses? Get a better paying job.

[TimesJob]

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Re: [WSG] why :first-child pseudo-class doesn't work for some selectors/elements?

[Rob Crowther]

On 10/03/11 13:17, Anthony Gr. wrote:

I think, it's doesn't work but h2 is not a first child element in
parent element (div).


Yes, the example page contains both positive and negative examples.

Rob


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Re: [WSG] why :first-child pseudo-class doesn't work for some selectors/elements?

[Anthony Gr.]

I think, it's doesn't work but h2 is not a first child element in
parent element (div).


This is the first child
First header
A paragraph
Second header
A paragraph


2011/3/10 tee :
>
> On Mar 6, 2011, at 4:52 PM, Rob Crowther wrote:
>
>> On 06/03/11 20:22, tee wrote:
>>> but I can never get h2:first-child works
>>>
>> Here's an example, specifically using h2 elements since you mentioned them:
>>
>> http://www.boogdesign.com/examples/css3/first-child.html
>>
>> By default, every element has a blue border, but any element which is a 
>> :first-child has a red border:
>>
>> :first-child {
>>    border: 1px solid red;
>> }
>>
>> In addition, h2 elements which are children of #content and first-child 
>> within their parent have white text on a black background:
>>
>> #content h2:first-child {
>>    color: #fff;
>>    background: #000;
>> }
>
> Indeed. I'd just got a chance to check one of the sites that the h2 is used 
> for accordion title and still doesn't work. But if I bring it to JSBin 
> without other code, it works. So something must be conflicting with it.
>
> Thanks!
>
> tee
>
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>


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Re: [WSG] why :first-child pseudo-class doesn't work for some selectors/elements?

[tee]

 
On Mar 6, 2011, at 4:52 PM, Rob Crowther wrote:

> On 06/03/11 20:22, tee wrote:
>> but I can never get h2:first-child works
>> 
> Here's an example, specifically using h2 elements since you mentioned them:
> 
> http://www.boogdesign.com/examples/css3/first-child.html
> 
> By default, every element has a blue border, but any element which is a 
> :first-child has a red border:
> 
> :first-child {
>border: 1px solid red;
> }
> 
> In addition, h2 elements which are children of #content and first-child 
> within their parent have white text on a black background:
> 
> #content h2:first-child {
>color: #fff;
>background: #000;
> }

Indeed. I'd just got a chance to check one of the sites that the h2 is used for 
accordion title and still doesn't work. But if I bring it to JSBin without 
other code, it works. So something must be conflicting with it.

Thanks!

tee

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RE: [WSG] why :first-child pseudo-class doesn't work for some selectors/elements?

[Birendra]

Hi Tee

Please use  tag in your coding. As your css is right but it's not
effected till you didn't mention the parent :)

Example:

Heading 2 this is the first-child and the bg color should be in
Olive.
  Another Heading 2 - this 
  
   This is paragraph and first-child so the bg color should be in Olive
too.
  Another Heading 2 - this 


Let me know is it work or not.

Regards
Birendra

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of tee
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 3:34 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] why :first-child pseudo-class doesn't work for some
selectors/elements?

http://jsbin.com/apate4/9/

  dt, dd { border-top:1px solid #555;float:left }
  dt:first-child {border-top:0}
dd:first-child {border-top:0}
  h2, p {background:#ddd;padding:15px;margin:5px}
  h2:first-child,p:first-child  {background:#95B26B} p/s. I tried declared
the two individually as I thought maybe they can't be grouped, but it makes
no differences.

According to the spec, it should work.
The :first-child pseudo-class represents an element that is the first child
of some other element.
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors/#first-child-pseudo

Assigning a class to the element is of no help.


tee

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Re: [WSG] why :first-child pseudo-class doesn't work for some selectors/elements?

[Rob Crowther]

On 06/03/11 20:22, tee wrote:

but I can never get h2:first-child works


Here's an example, specifically using h2 elements since you mentioned them:

http://www.boogdesign.com/examples/css3/first-child.html

By default, every element has a blue border, but any element which is a 
:first-child has a red border:


:first-child {
border: 1px solid red;
}

In addition, h2 elements which are children of #content and first-child 
within their parent have white text on a black background:


#content h2:first-child {
color: #fff;
background: #000;
}

Rob


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RE: [WSG] why :first-child pseudo-class doesn't work for some selectors/elements?

[Thierry Koblentz]

> "The :first-child pseudo-class represents an element that is the first
> child of some other element.".
> 
> I have often used li:first-child or li a:first child in different
> section of a page, why is that I can get the first-child in, say,
> 
> #hdr li:first-child
> .sidebox li:first-child (and it applies to all sidebox sections)
> 
> .sidebox li ol:first-child, #content h2:first-child
> 
> In a typical 2 columns layout,  in content area, there are a number of
> h2 in different sections and there is no first-child declared but h2,
> but I can never get h2:first-child works yet #hdr li:first-child and
> .sidebox li:first-child  work. This is still a bit confusing, is that
> means #hdr li:first-child (which is not wrapped inside #content)
> considers the first child of some other element for the entire page? If
> yes, why is that the ".sidebox li ol:first-child" and ".sidebox
> li:first-child" still work?

Can you style the h2 using #content > h2 {} (to confirm that these headings
*are* children of #content)
If that works then go with: #content > h2:first-child {}

--
Regards,
Thierry
@thierrykoblentz
www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | www.css-101.org 





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Re: [WSG] why :first-child pseudo-class doesn't work for some selectors/elements?

[tee]

The example below is something I constantly seeing, should have gone testing it 
again making sure my memory is still fresh, but I am a bit lazy right now as I 
haven't had my coffee yet.

"The :first-child pseudo-class represents an element that is the first child of 
some other element.".

I have often used li:first-child or li a:first child in different section of a 
page, why is that I can get the first-child in, say,

#hdr li:first-child
.sidebox li:first-child (and it applies to all sidebox sections)

.sidebox li ol:first-child, #content h2:first-child

In a typical 2 columns layout,  in content area, there are a number of h2 in 
different sections and there is no first-child declared but h2, but I can never 
get h2:first-child works yet #hdr li:first-child and .sidebox li:first-child  
work. This is still a bit confusing, is that means #hdr li:first-child (which 
is not wrapped inside #content) considers the first child of some other element 
for the entire page? If yes, why is that the ".sidebox li ol:first-child" and 
".sidebox li:first-child" still work?



tee





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RE: [WSG] why :first-child pseudo-class doesn't work for some selectors/elements?

[Thierry Koblentz]

> > An alternative to get the first dd in a dl:
> >
> > :first-child + dd { ... }
> 
> That would not be a sure thing as this could match a dt too

Scratch that, I didn't have my coffee yet ;)


--
Regards,
Thierry
@thierrykoblentz
www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | www.css-101.org 






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RE: [WSG] why :first-child pseudo-class doesn't work for some selectors/elements?

[Thierry Koblentz]

> An alternative to get the first dd in a dl:
> 
> :first-child + dd { ... }

That would not be a sure thing as this could match a dt too

--
Regards,
Thierry
@thierrykoblentz
www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | www.css-101.org 






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Re: [WSG] why :first-child pseudo-class doesn't work for some selectors/elements?

[tee]

 I see! 

In the entire time I thought this applies to any first child of p, and so are 
for the first h2 and first dd in any give page if first-child is declared.

p:first-child

 The last P before the note.

Note 
The first P inside the note.



How embarrassing!  I'd been using first-child for over a year, probably much 
longer mostly for li, but only recently started using it for heading and dd, 
and  I found it doesn't work.

Thank you!

tee

On Mar 6, 2011, at 2:34 AM, David Dorward wrote:

> Because those elements are not the first child element in their respective 
> containers.
> 
> 
> On 6 Mar 2011, at 10:03, tee wrote:
> 
>> http://jsbin.com/apate4/9/
>> 
>> dt, dd { border-top:1px solid #555;float:left }
>> dt:first-child {border-top:0}
>>   dd:first-child {border-top:0}
> 
>   
>test
>There should be no border top here 
> 
> Since the  is not the first child, a selector using :first-child won't 
> apply.
> 
> 
>> h2, p {background:#ddd;padding:15px;margin:5px}
>> h2:first-child,p:first-child  {background:#95B26B} p/s. I tried declared the 
>> two individually as I thought maybe they can't be grouped, but it makes no 
>> differences.
> 
>   
> ... 
>Heading 2 this is the first-child and the bg color 
> should be in Olive. 
> 
> Ditto.
> 
> -- 
> David Dorward
> http://dorward.me.uk



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Re: [WSG] why :first-child pseudo-class doesn't work for some selectors/elements?

[Oliver Boermans]

An alternative to get the first dd in a dl:

:first-child + dd { ... }

I'm not sure how browser support for '+' compares to 'first-of-type'.

Cheers Ollie
--
@ollicle

On 06/03/2011, at 20:33, tee  wrote:

> http://jsbin.com/apate4/9/
> 
>  dt, dd { border-top:1px solid #555;float:left }
>  dt:first-child {border-top:0}
>dd:first-child {border-top:0}
>  h2, p {background:#ddd;padding:15px;margin:5px}
>  h2:first-child,p:first-child  {background:#95B26B} p/s. I tried declared the 
> two individually as I thought maybe they can't be grouped, but it makes no 
> differences.
> 
> According to the spec, it should work.
> The :first-child pseudo-class represents an element that is the first child 
> of some other element.
> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors/#first-child-pseudo
> 
> Assigning a class to the element is of no help.
> 
> 
> tee
> 
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Re: [WSG] why :first-child pseudo-class doesn't work for some selectors/elements?

[David Dorward]

Because those elements are not the first child element in their respective 
containers.


On 6 Mar 2011, at 10:03, tee wrote:

> http://jsbin.com/apate4/9/
> 
>  dt, dd { border-top:1px solid #555;float:left }
>  dt:first-child {border-top:0}
>dd:first-child {border-top:0}

  
   test
   There should be no border top here 

Since the  is not the first child, a selector using :first-child won't 
apply.


>  h2, p {background:#ddd;padding:15px;margin:5px}
>  h2:first-child,p:first-child  {background:#95B26B} p/s. I tried declared the 
> two individually as I thought maybe they can't be grouped, but it makes no 
> differences.

  
... 
   Heading 2 this is the first-child and the bg color 
should be in Olive. 

Ditto.

-- 
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



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Re: [WSG] why :first-child pseudo-class doesn't work for some selectors/elements?

[Susanne Jäger]

Am 06.03.2011 11:03 schrieb tee:

http://jsbin.com/apate4/9/



According to the spec, it should work.
The :first-child pseudo-class represents an element that is the first child of 
some other element.
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors/#first-child-pseudo


that means first child of any type and doesn't match in your case. Try 
the first-of-type pseudo-class instead:
  but I'm 
not sure which browser-support you get for this one. It works in my 
Seamonkey 2.1 nightly but I didn't check other browsers.


greetings
Susanne


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[WSG] why :first-child pseudo-class doesn't work for some selectors/elements?

[tee]

http://jsbin.com/apate4/9/

  dt, dd { border-top:1px solid #555;float:left }
  dt:first-child {border-top:0}
dd:first-child {border-top:0}
  h2, p {background:#ddd;padding:15px;margin:5px}
  h2:first-child,p:first-child  {background:#95B26B} p/s. I tried declared the 
two individually as I thought maybe they can't be grouped, but it makes no 
differences.

According to the spec, it should work.
The :first-child pseudo-class represents an element that is the first child of 
some other element.
http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors/#first-child-pseudo

Assigning a class to the element is of no help.


tee

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The solution (was: [WSG] Why does IE show text decoration on these buttons?)

[Mike Kear]

Ei Sabai Nyo, thank you, you win the prize!  By golly it works. 

When I saw your suggestion, I thought to myself 'that wont work what's
background got to do with it?'  but I tried it anyway, and the issue has
been fixed. 

So now I have to ask – why does it work?   What made you say that?
Background was waay down on my list of things to check out. 

Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
0414 622 847
Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer 
AFP Webworks Pty Ltd 
http://afpwebworks.com 
Full Scale ColdFusion 9 hosting from A$15/month




From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Ei Sabai Nyo
Sent: Monday, 3 May 2010 4:06 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Re: WSG Digest

If you set background: transparent to the a:hover for those navigation
items, it will solve the issue.  


Anansi Web Development - http://www.anansi.com.au/

Web Development Blog - http://eisabainyo.net/weblog/


  





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Re: [WSG] Why does IE show text decoration on these buttons?

[Craig Jones]

Hi Mike
Try being more specific ie td#menubar a;link{} as it is part of a table 
as used in main css

Cheers

Mike Kear wrote:
Thanks a lot for everyone who has shown interest in my little issue.  


The problem is around the menubar at the top of this site.  They're in a
table cell that's specified as follows: 




They are images with no rollover activity required.The IE style sheet,
called uniquecelebrations_iehacks.css  has the following: 



#menubar a:link,
#menubar a:visited {
text-decoration: none;
}
#menubar a:hover,
#menubar a:active {
text-decoration: none;
border: none;
font-weight: normal;
}

I have checked that these rules do indeed select the button images in
question by putting a ridiculously large border in the hover/active rule,
and I have seen the border appear and disappear when the mouse rolls over
them.   So I know these rules select what I want them to.   What I don't
understand is why these rules don't override the text-decoration: underline
which is required elsewhere in the site.

There's a screenshot of what I'm talking about at
http://uniquecelebrations.com.au/screenshot.jpg.  In my system this problem
doesn't appear in Chrome or Firefox but does appear in IE7. 

http://uniquecelebrations.com.au/ 


Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
0414 622 847
Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer 
AFP Webworks Pty Ltd 
http://afpwebworks.com 
Full Scale ColdFusion 9 hosting from A$15/month






-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Harish Chouhan
Sent: Monday, 3 May 2010 3:52 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Why does IE show text decoration on these buttons?

Hello Mike,

I checked your website in FireFox, IE8, IE7 & IE6, it behaves same
everywhere. A screenshot of the issue you are saying would help. Also trying
adding a "!important" next to the text decoration rule in the CSS for IE7.


Regards,
Harish Chouhan




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--


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RE: [WSG] Why does IE show text decoration on these buttons?

[Mike Kear]

Thanks a lot for everyone who has shown interest in my little issue.  

The problem is around the menubar at the top of this site.  They're in a
table cell that's specified as follows: 



They are images with no rollover activity required.The IE style sheet,
called uniquecelebrations_iehacks.css  has the following: 


#menubar a:link,
#menubar a:visited {
text-decoration: none;
}
#menubar a:hover,
#menubar a:active {
text-decoration: none;
border: none;
font-weight: normal;
}

I have checked that these rules do indeed select the button images in
question by putting a ridiculously large border in the hover/active rule,
and I have seen the border appear and disappear when the mouse rolls over
them.   So I know these rules select what I want them to.   What I don't
understand is why these rules don't override the text-decoration: underline
which is required elsewhere in the site.

There's a screenshot of what I'm talking about at
http://uniquecelebrations.com.au/screenshot.jpg.  In my system this problem
doesn't appear in Chrome or Firefox but does appear in IE7. 

http://uniquecelebrations.com.au/ 

Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
0414 622 847
Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer 
AFP Webworks Pty Ltd 
http://afpwebworks.com 
Full Scale ColdFusion 9 hosting from A$15/month





-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Harish Chouhan
Sent: Monday, 3 May 2010 3:52 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Why does IE show text decoration on these buttons?

Hello Mike,

I checked your website in FireFox, IE8, IE7 & IE6, it behaves same
everywhere. A screenshot of the issue you are saying would help. Also trying
adding a "!important" next to the text decoration rule in the CSS for IE7.


Regards,
Harish Chouhan




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Re: [WSG] Why does IE show text decoration on these buttons?

[Craig Jones]

Hi Mike
Heres you CSS from  a Mac they both show text-decoration:underline;

a:link, a:visited {
color:#2E438C;
text-decoration:underline;
}
a:hover, a:active {
background:none repeat scroll 0 0 #00;
color:#FF;
text-decoration:underline;
}
You can change a:hover text dec to be none or
you could make it go away by giving your class="noDeco">link and css

.noDeco{text-decoration:none;} to test it
Good Luck
Craig
w...@afpwebworks.com wrote:

Hello group,

It's another brain fade moment for me, so I hope someone can help me.  


In IE7, the nav buttons are showing a black underline when the mouse hovers
over them, even though I have specifically put text-decoration:none in the
IE style sheet.   (In other browsers the buttons do what they're supposed
to)

Can anyone see what I've missed please?  

http://uniquecelebrations.com.au/ 


Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
0414 622 847
Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer 
AFP Webworks Pty Ltd 
http://afpwebworks.com 
Full Scale ColdFusion 9 hosting from A$15/month






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Re: [WSG] Why does IE show text decoration on these buttons?

[Kathleen R Dery]

Mike, In your CSS all I see are general rules set with text- 
decoration: underline.  I don't see the text-decoration: none  
anywhere.  I would make your rules more specific.


Kathleen
On May 2, 2010, at 10:31 PM,  wrote:



Hello group,

It's another brain fade moment for me, so I hope someone can help me.

In IE7, the nav buttons are showing a black underline when the mouse  
hovers
over them, even though I have specifically put text-decoration:none  
in the
IE style sheet.   (In other browsers the buttons do what they're  
supposed

to)

Can anyone see what I've missed please?

http://uniquecelebrations.com.au/

Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
0414 622 847
Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer
AFP Webworks Pty Ltd
http://afpwebworks.com
Full Scale ColdFusion 9 hosting from A$15/month





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RE: [WSG] Why does IE show text decoration on these buttons?

[Harish Chouhan]

Hello Mike,

I checked your website in FireFox, IE8, IE7 & IE6, it behaves same
everywhere. A screenshot of the issue you are saying would help. Also trying
adding a "!important" next to the text decoration rule in the CSS for IE7.


Regards,
Harish Chouhan

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of w...@afpwebworks.com
Sent: 03 May 2010 11:02 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Why does IE show text decoration on these buttons?


Hello group,

It's another brain fade moment for me, so I hope someone can help me.  

In IE7, the nav buttons are showing a black underline when the mouse hovers
over them, even though I have specifically put text-decoration:none in the
IE style sheet.   (In other browsers the buttons do what they're supposed
to)

Can anyone see what I've missed please?  

http://uniquecelebrations.com.au/ 

Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
0414 622 847
Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer 
AFP Webworks Pty Ltd 
http://afpwebworks.com 
Full Scale ColdFusion 9 hosting from A$15/month





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[WSG] Why does IE show text decoration on these buttons?

[wsg]

Hello group,

It's another brain fade moment for me, so I hope someone can help me.  

In IE7, the nav buttons are showing a black underline when the mouse hovers
over them, even though I have specifically put text-decoration:none in the
IE style sheet.   (In other browsers the buttons do what they're supposed
to)

Can anyone see what I've missed please?  

http://uniquecelebrations.com.au/ 

Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
0414 622 847
Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer 
AFP Webworks Pty Ltd 
http://afpwebworks.com 
Full Scale ColdFusion 9 hosting from A$15/month





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Re: [WSG] Why css settings a background image in the body tag wouldn't work plus 2nd issue of space between divs

[Matthew Holloway]

On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Michael Horowitz
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Sure happy to give you my current css.


Missing semi-colon at the end of the line?


.Matthew Holloway
http://holloway.co.nz/


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Re: [WSG] Why css settings a background image in the body tag wouldn't work

[Michael Horowitz]

Just rechecked was missing a ; at the end of the backround image css ie 
   background-image:url(../images/background.jpg) instead of 
background-image:url(../images/background.jpg);
Strange it worked in the divs I would have thought it would break 
everywhere.



..Now if I can just find someone to tell me why I am getting space 
between by header div and the rest of the site


Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



Matthew Holloway wrote:

On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Michael Horowitz
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  

I am finding I am having to put this info instead in my div's
Im sure it is some silly problem



Could you post some HTML/CSS?

If it's a silly problem then it's probably syntax, or that relative
paths are different from the HTML to CSS, etc.


.Matthew Holloway
http://holloway.co.nz/


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Re: [WSG] Why css settings a background image in the body tag wouldn't work plus 2nd issue of space between divs

[Michael Horowitz]

Sure happy to give you my current css.

Add in a 2nd problem I use margin-top in #header ul li to move my header 
to the bottom of the header div.  But when I do that it puts blank space 
between the #header and the #mainNav and #content below it.
Should I be wrapping those two div in another di and clearing it like I 
have a clear on my footer?


Thanks for the help this is only my 2nd tableless site.

#wrapper {
   width: 800px;
   position:relative;
   left: 50%;
   margin-left: -400px;
}



#header{
   width: 800px;
   height: 80px;
   background-image:url(../images/header.jpg)
}

#header ul li{
   float:right;
   font-size:10px;
   height: 80px;
   margin-top: 45px;
}

#header ul a {
   text-decoration:none;
   color:#00;

}
body {
   font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
   background-image:url(../images/background.jpg)
   font-size:10px;
  
}

#mainNav{
   padding-bottom: 20px;
   padding-left: 10px;
   padding-right: 10px;
   height: 380px;
   width: 150px;
   float: left;
   font-size:10px;
   background-image:url(../images/background.jpg)
  
}


#mainNav ul a {
   text-decoration:none;
   color:#00;
}


#content{
   width: 600px;
   float:right;
   font-size:10px;
   color:gray;
   background-image:url(../images/background.jpg)
  
  
}


#footer{
   clear:both;
   width: 800px;
   background-image:url(../images/background.jpg)
}



ul {
   list-style-type: none;
}

Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



Matthew Holloway wrote:

On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Michael Horowitz
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  

I am finding I am having to put this info instead in my div's
Im sure it is some silly problem



Could you post some HTML/CSS?

If it's a silly problem then it's probably syntax, or that relative
paths are different from the HTML to CSS, etc.


.Matthew Holloway
http://holloway.co.nz/


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Re: [WSG] Why css settings a background image in the body tag wouldn't work

[Matthew Holloway]

On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Michael Horowitz
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am finding I am having to put this info instead in my div's
> Im sure it is some silly problem

Could you post some HTML/CSS?

If it's a silly problem then it's probably syntax, or that relative
paths are different from the HTML to CSS, etc.


.Matthew Holloway
http://holloway.co.nz/


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Re: [WSG] Why css settings a background image in the body tag wouldn't work

[Gonzalo González Mora]

On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 7:48 PM, Michael Horowitz <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I have set a background image in my body tag
>
> body {
>   font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
>   background-image:url(../images/background.jpg)
>   font-size:10px;  }
>
> I am finding I am having to put this info instead in my div's
> Im sure it is some silly problem
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> Michael Horowitz
> Your Computer Consultant
> http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
> 561-394-9079
>
>
>
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>
You forgot the semicolon (;) at the end of the background-image property.

Gonzalo


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[WSG] Why css settings a background image in the body tag wouldn't work

[Michael Horowitz]

I have set a background image in my body tag

body {
   font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
   background-image:url(../images/background.jpg)
   font-size:10px;  
}


I am finding I am having to put this info instead in my div's
Im sure it is some silly problem

Thanks

--
Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



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RE: [WSG] why

[Kepler Gelotte]

> Is this wrapper floating over the mast div in ie7 only?   ahhh.

Hi Kevin,

I think your problem was caused by div#mast, which is contained in
div#header, had a width of 955px and was float. div#header had a width of
900px. This caused the unexpected behavior in IE. Maybe someone has a more
technical explanation of this issue.

Try this change in boxes.css:

#header {
BORDER-RIGHT: white 0px solid; BORDER-TOP: white 0px solid;
BORDER-LEFT: white 0px solid; WIDTH: 955px; BORDER-BOTTOM: white 0px solid;
/* HEIGHT: 21px */
}
#mast {
BORDER-RIGHT: pink 1px solid; BACKGROUND-POSITION: left 50%;
BORDER-TOP: pink 1px solid; /* FLOAT: left; */ BACKGROUND-IMAGE:
url(../images/mast.jpg); BORDER-LEFT: pink 1px solid; /* WIDTH: 955px; */
BORDER-BOTTOM: pink 1px solid; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; HEIGHT: 155px
}

Best regards,

Kepler Gelotte
Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
www.neighborwebmaster.com
phone/fax: (732) 302-0904




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VERSION:2.1
N:Gelotte;Kepler;;Mr.
FN:Kepler Gelotte ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
ORG:Neighbor Webmaster
TITLE:Web Designer
TEL;WORK;VOICE:(732) 302-0904
TEL;WORK;FAX:(732) 302-0904
ADR;WORK:;;156 Normandy Dr;Piscataway;NJ;08854;United States of America
LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=QUOTED-PRINTABLE:156 Normandy Dr=0D=0APiscataway, NJ 08854=0D=0AUnited States of America
URL;WORK:http://www.neighborwebmaster.com
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END:VCARD

[WSG] why

[kevin mcmonagle]

Is this wrapper floating over the mast div in ie7 only?   ahhh.

http://www.seaviewnightclub.com/mockup.html

http://www.seaviewnightclub.com/css/boxes.css



-best
kvn



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Re: [WSG] Why is deprecated?

[Andrew Cunningham]

 

I'm going to take a slightly different take on this thread. ,
 and  elements are good examples of what's wrong with
HTML front the point of view of minority and lesser used languages. CSS
also has inherent problems, but that's another story.

On Sat,
March 29, 2008 9:52 pm, Keryx Web wrote:

> 
>
Abusing  just for italics or  just for bolding,
when no
> emphasis is intended is the same *sort of* abuse as
using tables for
> layout. It is only abuse of a slightly lesser
degree.
> 

i'd agree.

although i'd go
further and say that browsers implementing italic as default presentation
for  and bold as default presentation for  are
also wrong. Its attempting to make the typographic conventions of the
Latin and Cyrillic scripts universal when they aren't.

Its poor
internationalization.

>  and  are actually
lesser evils than inline styles, which may be
> the only option
left if they are removed. They are less bloated and way
> easier
to handle from a programming point of view.
> 

 and  have no universal meaning. They have no
universal applicability. They are limited to certain typographic
traditions and certain scripts. 

> As the HTML 5 standards
stands today, this is the view of the working
> group as well. The
standard will provide some additional use cases where
> 
and  perhaps should be considered the best (or least sucky)
> option available.
> 

And what about cases where
it should never be used?

using  and  implies
that you have bold, italic and bold-italic fonts to display the text with.
On a standard Windows install for instance, how many scripts actually do
have such fonts compared to the scripts that don't have these fonts?

> 
> 1. A. Never use  and  when there
is a usable element with semantic
> meaning.
> 

I'd add never use  and  when content needs to be
internationalized.

> 1. B. But do *not* use semantic
elements outside of their defined
> meaning, which is even
worse.
> 

Do not apply default presentation to semantic
elements when content is to be internationalized.

> 
> * CMS software and an editor that can not access predefined
classes
> should prefer  and  over inline
styles.
> 

Such a CMS and editor is poorly
internationalized and has limited scope.

Andrew


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Re: [WSG] Why is deprecated?

[Keryx Web]

Kepler Gelotte skrev:

Hi,

I am just curious if anyone can explain why the  tag has been deprecated
while  and  are still allowed.


Summary (most things have been said already):

Underlines on paper have no usability impact, since you cant click on 
it! Underlines on web pages have a usability impact, since people think 
they are clickable links.


Underlines on paper printed with a typewriter existed because it took a 
great while until bold fonts or italics came around - and even when they 
did you had to manually change the ball in your typewriter. Today 
italics and bolding - as well as changing font size - exist and are more 
 aesthetically pleasing alternatives.


One should not think that conventions from print - or typewriters - 
apply on the web. The web has its own conventions.


On the web, the convention is that links are blue (when not visited) and 
underlined. Change one with care, change both with extreme care. The 
main place where you can change this convention is in menus, where there 
exist other visual clues to guide the user.


This means that there is no valid use case left for .

Although most cases where one could have used  or  can be replaced 
with CSS, , ,  or a header, there are still some use 
cases left.


E.g. on forum software you may want to allow some styling. Abusing  
and  for styling purposes is worse than using  and  for 
emphasis. Semantic meaning that has been left out is a lesser evil than 
semantic meaning that is misused.


Abusing  just for italics or  just for bolding, when no 
emphasis is intended is the same *sort of* abuse as using tables for 
layout. It is only abuse of a slightly lesser degree.


 and  are actually lesser evils than inline styles, which may be 
the only option left if they are removed. They are less bloated and way 
easier to handle from a programming point of view.


As the HTML 5 standards stands today, this is the view of the working 
group as well. The standard will provide some additional use cases where 
 and  perhaps should be considered the best (or least sucky) 
option available.


http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-i
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-b

This means (summary of my summary):

1. A. Never use  and  when there is a usable element with semantic 
meaning.


1. B. But do *not* use semantic elements outside of their defined 
meaning, which is even worse.


2. A. If possible use CSS. This means that web designers, who may do 
stuff like editing the sites main CSS files, should use clever selectors 
and semantically significant class names (like , not class="italics">) to achieve bolding and italics.


2. B. If possible, avoid using inline CSS. This means CMS software 
should provide access to (a subset of) the designers classes - and 
content providers be taught how to use them. WYSIWYG editors are often 
the bane of good markup. If one has to chose between inline CSS and  
or , use the elements.


Summary of my summary of my summary:

* A web developer should never use  and .

* CMS software and an editor that can not access predefined classes 
should prefer  and  over inline styles.


When googling to provide some additional info I found this, and since he 
agrees with me it must be a fine resource: 
http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=222


(I do however believe there is a use case for the  element - until 
recently called .)



Lars Gunter


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Re[2]: [WSG] Why is deprecated?

[Paul Novitski]

At 3/28/2008 01:14 PM, Àëåêñåé Íîâèêîâ wrote:

Is underline really needed? What for?



Underline is a method for highlighting 
(emphasizing) Roman text.  As far as I know it 
was invented with the typewriter, being a way to 
highlight a bit of text using a machine that was 
limited to a single font family, style, and 
size.  Underlined text in a manuscript is 
typically typeset in italics.  A lot of designers 
today agree that it's quite ugly and defaces the 
descenders of the type it highlights, although 
some type designs use it as a way of getting 
attention (because it's so ugly) or evoking the 
historical era of the typewriter.  Most 
aesthetically compassionate people limit its use 
to hyperlinks where it is the defacto standard; 
on web pages, any other underlining is 
discouraged because it makes people expect the 
underlined text to be hyperlinked.


In case google is blocked from your region, here are a couple of references:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underline
http://www.flyinglizard.co.nz/typography.php

Regards,

Paul
__

Paul Novitski
Juniper Webcraft Ltd.
http://juniperwebcraft.com 




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Re[2]: [WSG] Why is deprecated?

[Алексей Новиков]

Hello.

Is underline really needed? What for?


--- 
С уважением,
Алексей Новиков.

Электронная почта: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

--
http://blog.micromarketing.ru/
Действительно интересный блог 
об интернете, маркетинге, рекламе и PR своими руками



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Re: [WSG] why do some divs shrink wrap and others don't [OT?]

[Matthew Pennell]

On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 10:30 PM, dwain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> yes, the pix were floated but the nav div was not.  i ran a test.  i
> removed the width declaration and floated the nav div.  when i check it in
> ff web dev toolbar the nav div did not shrink wrap or it's contents.


I just tried that on your site (removed the width: 30% and added float: left
to the #nav div) and it shrinkwraps the nav items as expected.

-- 

- Matthew


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Re: [WSG] Why is deprecated?

[Christian Snodgrass]

I think that  and  are equivalent to  and that they probably 
should be deprecated. They probably will be in HTML5 (though I haven't 
looked). In my opinion, those are purely style, not semantic, and should 
be done with CSS.


Joseph Ortenzi wrote:

Very good points

 and  are stylistic and  and  are semantic.
 is stylistic, but the intention of an underlined string of text 
can be expressed with any of the above, dependent on intention.


I am one of those severely frustrated people who want to click 
underlined text so keep it out please...


I like underline on hover as useful feedback that it is in fact, a 
link. Predefined standard colours are less important these days, but 
good design does seem to favour blue-ish for link as a convention.


Joe


On Mar 27, 2008, at 09:14, Stuart Foulstone wrote:


Hi,

Usability.
Users expect link-text to be underlined.  Many user studies found that
when you underline other text users try to click on it and get quite
annoyed when nothing happens (some users would click on the underlined
text several times before they gave up).

Originally links were to have predefined colours that would have avoided
this situation, but Web Designers thought better and decided to start
styling their link colours as they thought fit.  Even though this 
styling
often does not include underlining, users still expect underlined 
text to
mean links.  This led to the confusion, so something had to give - it 
was

.

 and  are not deprecated because there may be times when you 
want to
style the text in that way but without the semantic emphasis that 
 and

 confer.


On Thu, March 27, 2008 4:28 am, Kepler Gelotte wrote:

Hi,

I am just curious if anyone can explain why the  tag has been
deprecated
while  and  are still allowed.

Thanks in advance.

Best regards,
Kepler Gelotte
Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
www.neighborwebmaster.com
phone/fax: (732) 302-0904



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==
Joe Ortenzi
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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--

Christian Snodgrass
Azure Ronin Web Design
http://www.arwebdesign.net/ 
Phone: 859.816.7955



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Re: [WSG] Why is deprecated?

[Stuart Foulstone]

But semantic mark-up such as  and  is there for user-agents
such as screen-readers to use.  That they do not currently render them as
different from normal text does not mean that it is not the intention.

We create Web standards that user-agents can work towards implementing (if
they wish) not the other way round.


On Thu, March 27, 2008 4:17 pm, Rochester oliveira wrote:
>  and  are NOT for screen readers. they are for the semantic
> markup.
>
> screen readers do not render  and , they read it as plain
> text.
>
> 2008/3/27, IceKat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> I do the exact same thing (clicking on underlined text which isn't a
>>  link) but it does make it very complicated to create access keys for
>>  forms because  was used to show which letter was the access key.
>>  Messing around with endless spans will discourage them. I'm really
>> sorry
>>  there is no alternative as there is with  and .
>>
>>  Does anyone know an alternative to ? I know you can use entitiy
>>  codes but this one saved the trouble and is now depreciated. Perhaps
>>  they could bring those two back.
>>
>>
>>  IceKat
>>
>>
>>
>>  Joseph Ortenzi wrote:
>>  > Very good points
>>  >
>>  >  and  are stylistic and  and  are semantic.
>>  >  is stylistic, but the intention of an underlined string of text
>>  > can be expressed with any of the above, dependent on intention.
>>  >
>>  > I am one of those severely frustrated people who want to click
>>  > underlined text so keep it out please...
>>  >
>>  > I like underline on hover as useful feedback that it is in fact, a
>>  > link. Predefined standard colours are less important these days, but
>>  > good design does seem to favour blue-ish for link as a convention.
>>  >
>>  > Joe
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > On Mar 27, 2008, at 09:14, Stuart Foulstone wrote:
>>  >
>>  >> Hi,
>>  >>
>>  >> Usability.
>>  >> Users expect link-text to be underlined.  Many user studies found
>> that
>>  >> when you underline other text users try to click on it and get quite
>>  >> annoyed when nothing happens (some users would click on the
>> underlined
>>  >> text several times before they gave up).
>>  >>
>>  >> Originally links were to have predefined colours that would have
>> avoided
>>  >> this situation, but Web Designers thought better and decided to
>> start
>>  >> styling their link colours as they thought fit.  Even though this
>>  >> styling
>>  >> often does not include underlining, users still expect underlined
>>  >> text to
>>  >> mean links.  This led to the confusion, so something had to give -
>> it
>>  >> was
>>  >> .
>>  >>
>>  >>  and  are not deprecated because there may be times when you
>>  >> want to
>>  >> style the text in that way but without the semantic emphasis that
>>  >>  and
>>  >>  confer.
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >> On Thu, March 27, 2008 4:28 am, Kepler Gelotte wrote:
>>  >>> Hi,
>>  >>>
>>  >>> I am just curious if anyone can explain why the  tag has been
>>  >>> deprecated
>>  >>> while  and  are still allowed.
>>  >>>
>>  >>> Thanks in advance.
>>  >>>
>>  >>> Best regards,
>>  >>> Kepler Gelotte
>>  >>> Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
>>  >>> 156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
>>  >>> www.neighborwebmaster.com
>>  >>> phone/fax: (732) 302-0904
>>  >>>
>>  >>>
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>
> --
> []'s
>
> -
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> http://webbemfeita.com/
> "Viva a Web-Bem-Feita"
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> Curitiba - PR - Brasil
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Re: [WSG] why do some divs shrink wrap and others don't [OT?]

[dwain]

On 3/27/08, Matthew Pennell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 5:41 PM, dwain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > i had no width set on the nav ul or the nav div and they both went to
> > 100%.  the div didn't shrink wrap the div and ul.
>
>
> That would be correct behaviour, unless you are saying that they were
> floated.


yes, the pix were floated but the nav div was not.  i ran a test.  i removed
the width declaration and floated the nav div.  when i check it in ff web
dev toolbar the nav div did not shrink wrap or it's contents.

dwain


-- 
dwain alford
"The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression."  Kandinsky


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Re: [WSG] Why is deprecated?

[Rochester oliveira]

 and  are NOT for screen readers. they are for the semantic markup.

screen readers do not render  and , they read it as plain text.

2008/3/27, IceKat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I do the exact same thing (clicking on underlined text which isn't a
>  link) but it does make it very complicated to create access keys for
>  forms because  was used to show which letter was the access key.
>  Messing around with endless spans will discourage them. I'm really sorry
>  there is no alternative as there is with  and .
>
>  Does anyone know an alternative to ? I know you can use entitiy
>  codes but this one saved the trouble and is now depreciated. Perhaps
>  they could bring those two back.
>
>
>  IceKat
>
>
>
>  Joseph Ortenzi wrote:
>  > Very good points
>  >
>  >  and  are stylistic and  and  are semantic.
>  >  is stylistic, but the intention of an underlined string of text
>  > can be expressed with any of the above, dependent on intention.
>  >
>  > I am one of those severely frustrated people who want to click
>  > underlined text so keep it out please...
>  >
>  > I like underline on hover as useful feedback that it is in fact, a
>  > link. Predefined standard colours are less important these days, but
>  > good design does seem to favour blue-ish for link as a convention.
>  >
>  > Joe
>  >
>  >
>  > On Mar 27, 2008, at 09:14, Stuart Foulstone wrote:
>  >
>  >> Hi,
>  >>
>  >> Usability.
>  >> Users expect link-text to be underlined.  Many user studies found that
>  >> when you underline other text users try to click on it and get quite
>  >> annoyed when nothing happens (some users would click on the underlined
>  >> text several times before they gave up).
>  >>
>  >> Originally links were to have predefined colours that would have avoided
>  >> this situation, but Web Designers thought better and decided to start
>  >> styling their link colours as they thought fit.  Even though this
>  >> styling
>  >> often does not include underlining, users still expect underlined
>  >> text to
>  >> mean links.  This led to the confusion, so something had to give - it
>  >> was
>  >> .
>  >>
>  >>  and  are not deprecated because there may be times when you
>  >> want to
>  >> style the text in that way but without the semantic emphasis that
>  >>  and
>  >>  confer.
>  >>
>  >>
>  >> On Thu, March 27, 2008 4:28 am, Kepler Gelotte wrote:
>  >>> Hi,
>  >>>
>  >>> I am just curious if anyone can explain why the  tag has been
>  >>> deprecated
>  >>> while  and  are still allowed.
>  >>>
>  >>> Thanks in advance.
>  >>>
>  >>> Best regards,
>  >>> Kepler Gelotte
>  >>> Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
>  >>> 156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
>  >>> www.neighborwebmaster.com
>  >>> phone/fax: (732) 302-0904
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>> ***
>  >>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  >>> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
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>  >>
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>
>  >> ***
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>  >> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
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>  >>
>  >
>  > ==
>  > Joe Ortenzi
>  > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
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>


-- 
[]'s

-
Rochester Oliveira
http://webbemfeita.com/
"Viva a Web-Bem-Feita"
Web Designer
Curitiba - PR - Brasil


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Re: [WSG] why do some divs shrink wrap and others don't [OT?]

[Matthew Pennell]

On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 5:41 PM, dwain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> i had no width set on the nav ul or the nav div and they both went to
> 100%.  the div didn't shrink wrap the div and ul.


That would be correct behaviour, unless you are saying that they were
floated.

-- 

- Matthew


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Re: [WSG] Why is deprecated?

[David Dorward]

On 27 Mar 2008, at 12:32, IceKat wrote:
I do the exact same thing (clicking on underlined text which isn't  
a link) but it does make it very complicated to create access keys  
for forms because  was used to show which letter was the access  
key. Messing around with endless spans will discourage them. I'm  
really sorry there is no alternative as there is with  and .


Access keys have other problems, and while an underline might be a  
convention to indicate such things on some systems, it is hardly  
universal (or useful to blind users).



Does anyone know an alternative to ?


CDATA markers in XHTML documents (served with the right content type).

I know you can use entitiy codes but this one saved the trouble and  
is now depreciated.


Set up a macro in your text editor to do it.

--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk/
http://blog.dorward.me.uk/




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Re: [WSG] why do some divs shrink wrap and others don't [OT?]

[dwain]

On 3/27/08, Matthew Pennell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 5:07 AM, dwain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > after my experience tonight i was wondering why some divs will shrink
> > wrap their contents while others don't.  any takers?
> >
>
> Block level elements such as DIV will be 100% of the width of their parent
> container, unless they are floated - in which case they can either have an
> explicit width set via CSS, or they will shrinkwrap their contents.
>

i had no width set on the nav ul or the nav div and they both went to 100%.
the div didn't shrink wrap the div and ul.
dwain
-- 
dwain alford
"The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression."  Kandinsky


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Re: [WSG] why do some divs shrink wrap and others don't [OT?]

[dwain]

On 3/27/08, Joseph Ortenzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> is it on this page?
> http://www.alforddesigngroup.com/
>
>  yes
-- 
dwain alford
"The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression."  Kandinsky


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Re: [WSG] why do some divs shrink wrap and others don't [OT?]

[Matthew Pennell]

On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 5:07 AM, dwain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> after my experience tonight i was wondering why some divs will shrink wrap
> their contents while others don't.  any takers?
>

Block level elements such as DIV will be 100% of the width of their parent
container, unless they are floated - in which case they can either have an
explicit width set via CSS, or they will shrinkwrap their contents.

-- 

- Matthew


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Re: [WSG] why do some divs shrink wrap and others don't [OT?]

[Joseph Ortenzi]

is it on this page?

http://www.alforddesigngroup.com/


On Mar 27, 2008, at 12:47, dwain wrote:

with my haslayout problem, the div around the pictures shrink  
wrapped while the nav div, containing a ul, and along with the ul  
sized to 100% of the wrapper.

dwain

On 3/27/08, Joe Ortenzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Please clarify dwain.

have you got two examples, one shrink-wrapping (??) the other not?

Do you mean one div will only be as large as the content within it  
and the other will retain a fixed size regardless of content?


Joe
On Mar 27 2008, at 05:07, dwain wrote:
after my experience tonight i was wondering why some divs will  
shrink wrap their contents while others don't.  any takers?


dwain

--
dwain alford
"The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression."  Kandinsky
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--
dwain alford
"The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression."  Kandinsky
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Re: [WSG] why do some divs shrink wrap and others don't [OT?]

[dwain]

with my haslayout problem, the div around the pictures shrink wrapped while
the nav div, containing a ul, and along with the ul sized to 100% of the
wrapper.
dwain

On 3/27/08, Joe Ortenzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Please clarify dwain.
> have you got two examples, one shrink-wrapping (??) the other not?
>
> Do you mean one div will only be as large as the content within it and the
> other will retain a fixed size regardless of content?
>
> Joe
> On Mar 27 2008, at 05:07, dwain wrote:
>
> after my experience tonight i was wondering why some divs will shrink wrap
> their contents while others don't.  any takers?
>
> dwain
>
> --
> dwain alford
> "The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
> for his inner impulse must find suitable expression."  Kandinsky
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> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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>
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-- 
dwain alford
"The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression."  Kandinsky


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Re: [WSG] Why is deprecated?

[IceKat]

I do the exact same thing (clicking on underlined text which isn't a 
link) but it does make it very complicated to create access keys for 
forms because  was used to show which letter was the access key. 
Messing around with endless spans will discourage them. I'm really sorry 
there is no alternative as there is with  and .


Does anyone know an alternative to ? I know you can use entitiy 
codes but this one saved the trouble and is now depreciated. Perhaps 
they could bring those two back.


IceKat


Joseph Ortenzi wrote:

Very good points

 and  are stylistic and  and  are semantic.
 is stylistic, but the intention of an underlined string of text 
can be expressed with any of the above, dependent on intention.


I am one of those severely frustrated people who want to click 
underlined text so keep it out please...


I like underline on hover as useful feedback that it is in fact, a 
link. Predefined standard colours are less important these days, but 
good design does seem to favour blue-ish for link as a convention.


Joe


On Mar 27, 2008, at 09:14, Stuart Foulstone wrote:


Hi,

Usability.
Users expect link-text to be underlined.  Many user studies found that
when you underline other text users try to click on it and get quite
annoyed when nothing happens (some users would click on the underlined
text several times before they gave up).

Originally links were to have predefined colours that would have avoided
this situation, but Web Designers thought better and decided to start
styling their link colours as they thought fit.  Even though this 
styling
often does not include underlining, users still expect underlined 
text to
mean links.  This led to the confusion, so something had to give - it 
was

.

 and  are not deprecated because there may be times when you 
want to
style the text in that way but without the semantic emphasis that 
 and

 confer.


On Thu, March 27, 2008 4:28 am, Kepler Gelotte wrote:

Hi,

I am just curious if anyone can explain why the  tag has been
deprecated
while  and  are still allowed.

Thanks in advance.

Best regards,
Kepler Gelotte
Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
www.neighborwebmaster.com
phone/fax: (732) 302-0904



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Re: [WSG] Why is deprecated?

[Joseph Ortenzi]

Very good points

 and  are stylistic and  and  are semantic.
 is stylistic, but the intention of an underlined string of text  
can be expressed with any of the above, dependent on intention.


I am one of those severely frustrated people who want to click  
underlined text so keep it out please...


I like underline on hover as useful feedback that it is in fact, a  
link. Predefined standard colours are less important these days, but  
good design does seem to favour blue-ish for link as a convention.


Joe


On Mar 27, 2008, at 09:14, Stuart Foulstone wrote:


Hi,

Usability.
Users expect link-text to be underlined.  Many user studies found that
when you underline other text users try to click on it and get quite
annoyed when nothing happens (some users would click on the underlined
text several times before they gave up).

Originally links were to have predefined colours that would have  
avoided

this situation, but Web Designers thought better and decided to start
styling their link colours as they thought fit.  Even though this  
styling
often does not include underlining, users still expect underlined  
text to
mean links.  This led to the confusion, so something had to give -  
it was

.

 and  are not deprecated because there may be times when you  
want to
style the text in that way but without the semantic emphasis that  
 and

 confer.


On Thu, March 27, 2008 4:28 am, Kepler Gelotte wrote:

Hi,

I am just curious if anyone can explain why the  tag has been
deprecated
while  and  are still allowed.

Thanks in advance.

Best regards,
Kepler Gelotte
Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
www.neighborwebmaster.com
phone/fax: (732) 302-0904



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Re: [WSG] Why is deprecated?

[Stuart Foulstone]

Hi,

Usability.
Users expect link-text to be underlined.  Many user studies found that
when you underline other text users try to click on it and get quite
annoyed when nothing happens (some users would click on the underlined
text several times before they gave up).

Originally links were to have predefined colours that would have avoided
this situation, but Web Designers thought better and decided to start
styling their link colours as they thought fit.  Even though this styling
often does not include underlining, users still expect underlined text to
mean links.  This led to the confusion, so something had to give - it was
.

 and  are not deprecated because there may be times when you want to
style the text in that way but without the semantic emphasis that  and
 confer.


On Thu, March 27, 2008 4:28 am, Kepler Gelotte wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am just curious if anyone can explain why the  tag has been
> deprecated
> while  and  are still allowed.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Best regards,
> Kepler Gelotte
> Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
> 156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
> www.neighborwebmaster.com
> phone/fax: (732) 302-0904
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Why is deprecated?

[Thomas Thomassen]

Mike at Green-Beast.com has an interesting article about semantic use of  
and  at http://green-beast.com/blog/?p=222


Though it doesn't mention anything of . It's harder to argume the 
semantic value of . Underlining a work is often done to emphasize a word 
or phrase, where  or  should then be used. Though they can be 
styled to be underlined, underlining would make the elements look like a 
hyperlink and confuse the user.


And I don't know of any situation where it's a typographic situation to 
underline a word.


-Thom

- Original Message - 
From: "Kepler Gelotte" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 5:28 AM
Subject: [WSG] Why is  deprecated?



Hi,

I am just curious if anyone can explain why the  tag has been 
deprecated

while  and  are still allowed.

Thanks in advance.

Best regards,
Kepler Gelotte
Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
www.neighborwebmaster.com
phone/fax: (732) 302-0904



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Re: [WSG] why do some divs shrink wrap and others don't [OT?]

[Joe Ortenzi]

Please clarify dwain.

have you got two examples, one shrink-wrapping (??) the other not?

Do you mean one div will only be as large as the content within it  
and the other will retain a fixed size regardless of content?


Joe

On Mar 27 2008, at 05:07, dwain wrote:

after my experience tonight i was wondering why some divs will  
shrink wrap their contents while others don't.  any takers?


dwain

--
dwain alford
"The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression."  Kandinsky
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RE: [WSG] Why is deprecated?

[Tim MacKay]

I agree with the reasoning but in practice I think its actually better to
use  and  (maybe not so much ) - sometimes you just want something
bold and its much less markup to wrap  and  instead of some text then
.bold { font-weight: bold; etc; etc; } I hope they don't deprecate it
completely, it is useful when you don't want something to be  for
screen readers, just bold text.

 

My 2 cents.

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mahendran Venkatesan
Sent: Thursday, 27 March 2008 4:19 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Why is  deprecated?

 

The presentational elements such as , ,  and  are deprecated as
because it can be achieved by CSS. For example,  can be achieved by
"text-decoration: underline;".

I think,  and  have been left for screen readers to understand
the emphasize part.

Thanks!
Venkatesan M



On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 9:58 AM, Kepler Gelotte
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi,

I am just curious if anyone can explain why the  tag has been deprecated
while  and  are still allowed.

Thanks in advance.

Best regards,
Kepler Gelotte
Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
www.neighborwebmaster.com
phone/fax: (732) 302-0904



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Re: [WSG] Why is deprecated?

[Mahendran Venkatesan]

The presentational elements such as , ,  and  are deprecated as
because it can be achieved by CSS. For example,  can be achieved by
*"text-decoration:
underline*;".

I think,  and  have been left for *screen readers* to understand
the emphasize part.

Thanks!
Venkatesan M


On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 9:58 AM, Kepler Gelotte <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am just curious if anyone can explain why the  tag has been
> deprecated
> while  and  are still allowed.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Best regards,
> Kepler Gelotte
> Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
> 156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
> www.neighborwebmaster.com
> phone/fax: (732) 302-0904
>
>
>
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[WSG] why do some divs shrink wrap and others don't [OT?]

[dwain]

after my experience tonight i was wondering why some divs will shrink wrap
their contents while others don't.  any takers?

dwain

-- 
dwain alford
"The artist may use any form which his expression demands;
for his inner impulse must find suitable expression."  Kandinsky


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RE: [WSG] Why is deprecated?

[Kepler Gelotte]

Thanks for the explanation John.

I think the standards group still should have deprecated  and  though.
Seems a pretty weak argument to say that  and  will be misused
because  and  already are.

Bold and italics can be controlled through CSS as well, leaving HTML as
clean and semantic as possible.


Best regards,
Kepler Gelotte
Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
www.neighborwebmaster.com
phone/fax: (732) 302-0904




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Re: [WSG] Why is deprecated?

[Michael Horowitz]

Here I found they are not technically depreciated but they have 
recommended replacements


|b| 	Although technically not deprecated, W3C recommends the | 
|element be used instead.



|i| 	Although technically not deprecated, W3C recommends the | 
|element be used instead.



http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/clf2-nsi2/tb-bo/td-dt/adea-sread-eng.asp

It does look like they are part of the presentation module
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_presentationmodule


Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079



Kepler Gelotte wrote:

Hi,

I am just curious if anyone can explain why the  tag has been deprecated
while  and  are still allowed.

Thanks in advance.

Best regards,
Kepler Gelotte
Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
www.neighborwebmaster.com
phone/fax: (732) 302-0904



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Re: [WSG] Why is deprecated?

[John Hancock]

Hi Kepler,

In many ways,  has been deprecated in favour of  and  in 
favour of  (emphasis).  (underline) has been deprecated because 
it shouldn't be part of structural markup, but instead part of styling, 
so it would be replaced by  or similar.


The reason  (bold) and  italic haven't actually been deprecated is 
that the HTML working group were worried it would lead to the misuse of 
other presentational tags, indeed such as  and , which 
should be considered whenever you use these 'newer' tags!


cheers,

John

Kepler Gelotte wrote:

Hi,

I am just curious if anyone can explain why the  tag has been deprecated
while  and  are still allowed.

Thanks in advance.

Best regards,
Kepler Gelotte
Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
www.neighborwebmaster.com
phone/fax: (732) 302-0904



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[WSG] Why is deprecated?

[Kepler Gelotte]

Hi,

I am just curious if anyone can explain why the  tag has been deprecated
while  and  are still allowed.

Thanks in advance.

Best regards,
Kepler Gelotte
Neighbor Webmaster, Inc.
156 Normandy Dr., Piscataway, NJ 08854
www.neighborwebmaster.com
phone/fax: (732) 302-0904



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Re: [WSG] Why code and no web pag

[Joe Ortenzi]

there is one on topic point though: you need to close ALL of your  
your input tags in order for the XHTML to validate.



should be :

(note the space and forward slash at the end)

The basic premise is you always need to close a tag in XHTML, like  
a paragraph. but some tags have no separate end tag, like,  
,  and , so you close the tag internally, with a space  
slash, like so:   and the input example above.


Hope this helps!

BTW: I notice you posted a comment that you got it working in FF but  
it doesn't work for me here, unless I got the link wrong?


Joe

On Feb 3 2008, at 05:01, Hayden's Harness Attachment wrote:

I am sorry for the off topic message. I did not know who to turn  
to. Please reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED]


I have the following on a Windows Vista Home Premium PC.

http://www.choroideremia.org/events/ 
national_capital_marathon_may2008.php


The code shows in my text editor, however, it will not display in  
IE7 or Firefox. Does someone know why? Everything shows just fine.


Angus MacKinnon
Infoforce Services
http:ééwww.infoforce-services.com

It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the  
Bible.

George Washington



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Joe Ortenzi
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.joiz.com




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[WSG] Why code and no web pag

[Hayden's Harness Attachment]

I am sorry for the off topic message. I did not know who to turn to. Please 
reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

I have the following on a Windows Vista Home Premium PC.

http://www.choroideremia.org/events/national_capital_marathon_may2008.php

The code shows in my text editor, however, it will not display in IE7 or 
Firefox. Does someone know why? Everything shows just fine.

Angus MacKinnon
Infoforce Services
http:ééwww.infoforce-services.com

It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.
George Washington



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RE: [WSG] Why DON'T you-know-who just fix the site?

[Christie Mason]

>From the tone of the many comments on this topic it appears there are a lot
of people commenting who haven't been internal in a large company and expect
that outsiders saying "should" will work to change internal organizational
perceptions and direction.  It won't.

Most people don't do something that other people think they "should" because
   A. They don't see why they "should"
   B. People hate to be told to do anything.  Telling not selling never
works.  I suspect because it reminds people of their parents, "You should do
this because I told you to".

Telling someone a "should" when backed with a big stick like a law can
appear to work but it's only superficial adherence, not a deep commitment.

Standards and accessibility have a reputation, a perception, that they're
expensive and, even more importantly, increase development time and that
only a small, strident group of "standardistas" believe in the importance of
adhering to standards and only a small group are affected by accessibility.
Perceptions become reality to those that hold the perception.

Add to that perception that most organizational decision makers do not buy
their stuff on the web, or sometimes even buy that there "should" be a web.
It was only several years ago that I was still hearing, "But then they'll
see our prices if we put our products on the web!"  Politicians also don't
buy their stuff on the web,  but they have little antennae that are reactive
to the loudness of the vox populi.  A small, loud group can be loud enough
to get the attention of their antennae.

Telling ain't selling and honey is more attractive than vinegar.  If someone
thinks that someone else "should" act, think, do in a different way and that
someone doesn't respond how they "should", then where's the fault?  Is the
fault with the person shouting the message, or the person who is unable to
hear the message?  Good salespeople know that if someone's not hearing their
message, it's their fault and they need to repackage the message.

Instead of thinking about fault, think about how to change the perception so
that businesses will buy standards and accessibility -  without using the
word "should".  Pierce the perception.

Christie Mason



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Re: [WSG] Why DON'T you-know-who just fix the site?

[Stuart Foulstone]

One of the first requirements of accessibility is use a doctype with valid
code.  Their site is full of coding errors and I can't believe that it has
been created by any web designer (possibly a graphic designer? ;-).

As you suggest, it could well be that they are using "some kind of monster
CMS which their current staff are unable to make changes to".

That said, they should be prosecuted just for their response alone (to the
requests to amend their site),i.e.

"Target is committed to serving all of our guests and we believe that our
Web site is fully accessible and complies with all applicable laws,"

Stuart
-- 
Stuart Foulstone.
http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk
BigEasy Web Design
69 Flockton Court
Rockingham Street
Sheffield
S1 4EB

Tel. 07751 413451

On Mon, October 8, 2007 2:09 am, John Horner wrote:
> Let's say there's a big store called, er, Tegrat.
>
> They have complaints about their website not being accessible, which
> have gone on for some time and are now the subject of legal action.
>
> We, the people on this list, know that it's not technically difficult,
> and shouldn't be time-consuming or expensive.
>
> Does anyone have any idea why don't they just ... fix the problem?
>
>  * Are they holding out some kind of right-wing, "government shouldn't
> interfere, ever, in anything" philosophy?
>
>  * Have they subcontracted the website to a third party with whom
> they're on bad terms?
>
>  * Have they got some kind of monster CMS which their current staff are
> unable to make changes to?
>
>  * Do they somehow believe, mistakenly, that it will cost millions?
>
> No matter whether you *believe* legislation should force businesses to
> fix the site, businesses normally like to appear well-meaning and
> helpful and compliant with such issues and interest groups, because
> they're so concerned with their public image.
>
> ==
> The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential
> and
> may contain legally privileged or copyright material.   It is intended
> only for
> the use of the addressee(s).  If you are not the intended recipient of
> this
> email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email
> or
> any attachments.  If you have received this message in error, please
> notify the
> sender immediately and delete this email from your system.  The ABC does
> not
> represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free.
> Before
> opening any attachment you should check for viruses.  The ABC's liability
> is
> limited to resupplying any email and attachments
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Re: [WSG] Why DON'T you-know-who just fix the site?

[Christian Snodgrass]

I've actually been thinking about this question for a while now. I think 
that most of the answers you have said are very possible. Another I 
think is that maybe their developer convinced them that it is accessible 
so they are under the mistaken assumption that the problem has been 
fixed. Or, the other likely cause is just because there is so much 
stuff, and their code is probably so incredibly sloppy, that they are 
simply unable to make changes to it.


I don't think "Tegrat" necessarily wants to stir up trouble, but for 
whatever reason, it is the simplest option for them (or at least that is 
what their management thinks).


Christian Snodgrass
Azure Ronin Web Design

John Horner wrote:

Let's say there's a big store called, er, Tegrat.

They have complaints about their website not being accessible, which
have gone on for some time and are now the subject of legal action.

We, the people on this list, know that it's not technically difficult,
and shouldn't be time-consuming or expensive. 

Does anyone have any idea why don't they just ... fix the problem? 


 * Are they holding out some kind of right-wing, "government shouldn't
interfere, ever, in anything" philosophy?

 * Have they subcontracted the website to a third party with whom
they're on bad terms?

 * Have they got some kind of monster CMS which their current staff are
unable to make changes to?

 * Do they somehow believe, mistakenly, that it will cost millions?

No matter whether you *believe* legislation should force businesses to
fix the site, businesses normally like to appear well-meaning and
helpful and compliant with such issues and interest groups, because
they're so concerned with their public image. 


==
The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and
may contain legally privileged or copyright material.   It is intended only for
the use of the addressee(s).  If you are not the intended recipient of this
email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or
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[WSG] Why DON'T you-know-who just fix the site?

[John Horner]

Let's say there's a big store called, er, Tegrat.

They have complaints about their website not being accessible, which
have gone on for some time and are now the subject of legal action.

We, the people on this list, know that it's not technically difficult,
and shouldn't be time-consuming or expensive. 

Does anyone have any idea why don't they just ... fix the problem? 

 * Are they holding out some kind of right-wing, "government shouldn't
interfere, ever, in anything" philosophy?

 * Have they subcontracted the website to a third party with whom
they're on bad terms?

 * Have they got some kind of monster CMS which their current staff are
unable to make changes to?

 * Do they somehow believe, mistakenly, that it will cost millions?

No matter whether you *believe* legislation should force businesses to
fix the site, businesses normally like to appear well-meaning and
helpful and compliant with such issues and interest groups, because
they're so concerned with their public image. 

==
The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and
may contain legally privileged or copyright material.   It is intended only for
the use of the addressee(s).  If you are not the intended recipient of this
email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or
any attachments.  If you have received this message in error, please notify the
sender immediately and delete this email from your system.  The ABC does not
represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free.   Before
opening any attachment you should check for viruses.  The ABC's liability is
limited to resupplying any email and attachments
==


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Re: [WSG] why is this text not resizable,?

[Tee G. Peng]

On Jun 16, 2007, at 8:05 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote:



I believe it is sIFR (Flash)
http://www.mikeindustries.com/sifr/


---
Regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com



Thank you Thierry, David and others who response and provided extra  
link for other method.


tee


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Re: [WSG] why is this text not resizable,?

[David Hucklesby]

On Sat, 16 Jun 2007 19:36:06 -0700, Tee G. Peng wrote:
> I was at Media Temple reading mySQL stuff, and one thing caught my eyes. 
> First I saw
> the h3 text seems to have shadow effect so I tried to select it to see if 
> it's graphic.
> It's not and then I notice the font isn't enlarged when I resize the fontsize.
>
> http://www.mediatemple.net/webhosting/gs/mysql-pool.htm
>
> Look for blue heading under the 'Notable features'.
>

Hi Tee,

You have had your answer, but thought that you may be interested in
an alternative method[1] mentioned in an earlier thread[2].

The example (still being worked on) uses plain text in a Flash
image, but there's no reason why it could not have an effect
applied. The point is, this experimental method uses EM sizing
for the Flash. I found the demo quite convincing.

[1] 

[2] 

Cordially,
David
--






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Re: [WSG] why is this text not resizable,?

[John Faulds]

Because it's sIFR (Flash-replaced) text.

On Sun, 17 Jun 2007 12:36:06 +1000, Tee G. Peng <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:


I was at Media Temple reading mySQL stuff, and one thing caught my eyes.  
First I saw the h3 text seems to have shadow effect so I tried to select  
it to see if it's graphic. It's not and then I notice the font isn't  
enlarged when I resize the fontsize.


http://www.mediatemple.net/webhosting/gs/mysql-pool.htm

Look for blue heading under the 'Notable features'.

tee




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--
Tyssen Design
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590


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RE: [WSG] why is this text not resizable,?

[Thierry Koblentz]

> On Behalf Of Tee G. Peng

> I was at Media Temple reading mySQL stuff, and one thing caught my
> eyes. First I saw the h3 text seems to have shadow effect so I tried
> to select it to see if it's graphic. It's not and then I notice the
> font isn't enlarged when I resize the fontsize.
> 
> http://www.mediatemple.net/webhosting/gs/mysql-pool.htm

Hi Tee,
I believe it is sIFR (Flash)
http://www.mikeindustries.com/sifr/


---
Regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com






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[WSG] why is this text not resizable,?

[Tee G. Peng]

I was at Media Temple reading mySQL stuff, and one thing caught my  
eyes. First I saw the h3 text seems to have shadow effect so I tried  
to select it to see if it's graphic. It's not and then I notice the  
font isn't enlarged when I resize the fontsize.


http://www.mediatemple.net/webhosting/gs/mysql-pool.htm

Look for blue heading under the 'Notable features'.

tee




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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Geoff Deering]

liorean wrote:


Consider the entire www.google.com site. Or at least the search part
of it. You probably want to create one stylesheet file and one
javascript file for the entire thing, probably sent compressed if
client supports it, so it gets cached and not requested again in that
browser session.

Also, how many users access the main page once but searches several
times in a row, or move beyond the first listing page? How many access
it from the Google bar or browser search fields instead of coming
through the main page?  The main page is just a part of the
application, not the whole thing.

These considerations probably make CSS layout an even better choice
for reducing bandwidth consumption.
--
David "liorean" Andersson
 




There's no doubting the arguments here, but you are dealing with large 
organisations.  Anyone who has worked within one of these large 
organisations as a web developer knows not to raise these issues or else 
they could find themselves without a job, even if their intention is 
only to benefit the organisation.


Zeldman pointed out Yahoo's problems in DWWS, but it had little impact.  
*Jakob* Nielsen was utilised as the usability design person for Google's 
initial design, which has changed little from it original.  I don't know 
if he's still on their payroll.


Even take a look at an organisation like Telstra and it's implementation 
of Standards (http://telstra.com.au/standards/index.cfm).  They have at 
least put an effort into this, but the people on this list will see the 
flaws in it's implementation, and it's assumptions.  This movement has 
been going on for half a decade at Telstra, and the version 6 templates 
are at least 4 years old.


It's almost impossible to effect these types of changes in these 
organisations, unless you have a position of authority.  The only way to 
do it (so far) is to lead by example, and when there is enough evidence 
of good standards design implementation, then these large organisations 
may be willing to adapt best of practices.



Geoff Deering
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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Rimantas Liubertas]

<...>
> I'm wondering what led MSN to go with external files, and Yahoo with
> CSS in the header. MSN is obviously much more optomized than Yahoo
> (the yahoo markup is a mess), and I'm thinking MSN might have picked
> the right choice. Their CSS file is massive and probably covers all
> the internal pages, which makes it worth the extra cost of having an
> external file.

That's very very good point.

Indeed, by tidying up SERPs and using common CSS file Google would
save much much more. Optimizing only google.com start page does not
make much sense: if one uses search form then he will want results pages too.
Results pages are also generated by request from search box in Firefox or Opera,
from google powered search in other pages.
So SERPs are to be targeted if someone is serious about saving bandwidth.

And in terms of web standards MSN with valid and CSS-formated start and
results pages is way ahead of Google...

Regards,
Rimantas
--
http://rimantas.com/
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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Christian Montoya]

On 12/10/05, liorean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > - Dynamic elements:
> > > Things such as being logged in/not logged in, having Google Desktop or
> > > not, sponsored links, search listings etc. all need be take in
> > > consideration.
> >
> > How? What does that have to do with it?
>
> Consider the entire www.google.com site. Or at least the search part
> of it. You probably want to create one stylesheet file and one
> javascript file for the entire thing, probably sent compressed if
> client supports it, so it gets cached and not requested again in that
> browser session.
>
> Also, how many users access the main page once but searches several
> times in a row, or move beyond the first listing page? How many access
> it from the Google bar or browser search fields instead of coming
> through the main page?  The main page is just a part of the
> application, not the whole thing.
>
> These considerations probably make CSS layout an even better choice
> for reducing bandwidth consumption.

That's what I was thinking.

Matt's solution is almost identical to: http://search.msn.com

While Rimantas is more like: http://search.yahoo.com

I'm wondering what led MSN to go with external files, and Yahoo with
CSS in the header. MSN is obviously much more optomized than Yahoo
(the yahoo markup is a mess), and I'm thinking MSN might have picked
the right choice. Their CSS file is massive and probably covers all
the internal pages, which makes it worth the extra cost of having an
external file.

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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[liorean]

On 10/12/05, Christian Montoya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> See Rimantas' version... I think you are focusing too much on the
> specific implementation of standards, and not the simple fact that if
> Google used standards, they would save a lot. At least Rimantas
> thought ahead and solved these problems by putting the CSS in the
> header, but let's not all bash Matt for not doing that.

Actually, when I started writing that, Rimantas hadn't posted his
first entry yet.

> Also see my post on GIF vs. PNG.

Well, support for gen < 5 browsers maybe could speak against PNGs.
Google have to consider a wider audience than most other major sites.
Otherwise, yeah, it makes sense to use PNG for the size reduction.

> What? I would rather modify the standards version than the original.
> The original uses tables, which means you have to add TD's every time
> you want to add another link, which are much heavier than adding LI's.
> Also, the standards version allows the Google codemonkeys to cut and
> paste the CSS, and then just edit the markup to reflect the
> language/localisation.

Maybe, but it's a consideration that hadn't been mentioned yet when I
started writing that. Actually I was more thinking about the way
actual search listings, sponsored links and results overview are laid
out in different languages. How do they handle vertical scripts, for
instance?

> > - Serialisation:
> > Not only do we want our content to be laid out the same in CSS and
> > JavaScript enabled browsers. We also want to retain the current
> > layout/serialisation for the content in browsers with bad or no CSS
> > support, with terminal window textual browsers, screen readers or
> > braille interfaces. Google may throw ugly code at us, but it isn't
> > inaccessible as it is. This includes things such as not laying the
> > Web/Images/Groups... out as a horizontal list instead of a single line
> > when you have no CSS support.
>
> Huh? The bottom line is saving money, accessibility or serialisation
> is not so important. I would say it serializes just fine in the
> standards version anyway.

Might very well do. Does the content before the search box to take so
small space as to allow an 80x25 text browser to show it without
scrolling? That's about as much requirements I think one can have on
this issue in particular. Keeping it to a single page also in text
browsers does wonders for usability in such.

> > - Dynamic elements:
> > Things such as being logged in/not logged in, having Google Desktop or
> > not, sponsored links, search listings etc. all need be take in
> > consideration.
>
> How? What does that have to do with it?

Consider the entire www.google.com site. Or at least the search part
of it. You probably want to create one stylesheet file and one
javascript file for the entire thing, probably sent compressed if
client supports it, so it gets cached and not requested again in that
browser session.

Also, how many users access the main page once but searches several
times in a row, or move beyond the first listing page? How many access
it from the Google bar or browser search fields instead of coming
through the main page?  The main page is just a part of the
application, not the whole thing.

These considerations probably make CSS layout an even better choice
for reducing bandwidth consumption.
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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Christian Montoya]

On 12/10/05, liorean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I feel you are forgetting a number of things.
>
> - Response times:
> - Hidden bandwidth consumption:
> - Obvious bandwidth consumption:
>

See Rimantas' version... I think you are focusing too much on the
specific implementation of standards, and not the simple fact that if
Google used standards, they would save a lot. At least Rimantas
thought ahead and solved these problems by putting the CSS in the
header, but let's not all bash Matt for not doing that.

Also see my post on GIF vs. PNG.

> - Localisation:
> Google has within all probability made their pages so that minimal
> changes are required even to languages and scripts considerably
> different from English. This has to be considered for any remake with
> semantical markup, including the issue of the next point.
>

What? I would rather modify the standards version than the original.
The original uses tables, which means you have to add TD's every time
you want to add another link, which are much heavier than adding LI's.
Also, the standards version allows the Google codemonkeys to cut and
paste the CSS, and then just edit the markup to reflect the
language/localisation.

> - Serialisation:
> Not only do we want our content to be laid out the same in CSS and
> JavaScript enabled browsers. We also want to retain the current
> layout/serialisation for the content in browsers with bad or no CSS
> support, with terminal window textual browsers, screen readers or
> braille interfaces. Google may throw ugly code at us, but it isn't
> inaccessible as it is. This includes things such as not laying the
> Web/Images/Groups... out as a horizontal list instead of a single line
> when you have no CSS support.
>

Huh? The bottom line is saving money, accessibility or serialisation
is not so important. I would say it serializes just fine in the
standards version anyway.

> - Dynamic elements:
> Things such as being logged in/not logged in, having Google Desktop or
> not, sponsored links, search listings etc. all need be take in
> consideration.

How? What does that have to do with it?

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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[liorean]

I feel you are forgetting a number of things.

- Response times:
Response times are every bit as important to Google as bandwidth usage
is. A user should never have to wait for the Google page, or the
Google search results. Ever.
CSS and JavaScript in separate files means the browser needs two
roundtrips to server more than currently. If rendering relies on CSS,
this means unreliable response times and inevitable slower percieved
loading (Try a 14.4 modem on phone lines with high interference and
75+% packet loss - those can make any page seem like it takes an
eternity to load). And JavaScript loaded as a separate file means
unrealiable script triggering. We wouldn't want to throw an error
report in the face of our users just because they don't have the
script loaded yet, do we?

- Hidden bandwidth consumption:
Google pages, especially the main page, are pretty light weight. Which
means the HTTP headers are a considerable part of the bandwidth
consumption. You double the amount of HTTP headers to send if you add
two external references - both requests and responses.

- Obvious bandwidth consumption:
We have unneccesarily increased bandwidth consumption from the script
and link elements required to reference these new files, as well as
from the doctype needed to make the HTML valid.

- Localisation:
Google has within all probability made their pages so that minimal
changes are required even to languages and scripts considerably
different from English. This has to be considered for any remake with
semantical markup, including the issue of the next point.

- Serialisation:
Not only do we want our content to be laid out the same in CSS and
JavaScript enabled browsers. We also want to retain the current
layout/serialisation for the content in browsers with bad or no CSS
support, with terminal window textual browsers, screen readers or
braille interfaces. Google may throw ugly code at us, but it isn't
inaccessible as it is. This includes things such as not laying the
Web/Images/Groups... out as a horizontal list instead of a single line
when you have no CSS support.

- Dynamic elements:
Things such as being logged in/not logged in, having Google Desktop or
not, sponsored links, search listings etc. all need be take in
consideration.
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http://liorean.web-graphics.com/>
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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Rimantas Liubertas]

<...>
> Updated valid page, based on the above:
> http://xomerang.com/testpages/google/validGoogle.html  (1,953 bytes)
>

Ok I took your version and got it to extreme:

http://rimantas.com/bits/google/google1.html (1729 bytes).

What I did: got rid of some optional tags, shortened name of CSS file
to one letter (
one may save four more bytes by removing extension); got rid of redundant META
element (that info belongs to server config), removed widht and height from IMG:
there is now use in this case to have them.

Still valid HTML strict:
http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//rimantas.com/bits/google/google1.html

> I retained the one-line Javascript in the head, but all styles are in
> an external CSS file:
> http://xomerang.com/testpages/google/validGoogle.css (636 bytes)
>
> So even for a one-off request, with no cached CSS, the valid version
> is 2589 bytes - *still* lighter weight than the current invalid
> version.

One gotcha here: even in cached stylesheet case there is some chat
going between browser
and server, and it usually amounts in the range between 0.5 and 1KB.
(http://rimantas.com/bits/google/headers.txt)

So, for small javascript and CSS  it may be better to have them in
html, in case every byte counts.
There is version with embeded CSS (I did not try to optimaze styles,
taken as-is):

http://rimantas.com/bits/google/google.html

Size is 2361 bytes, but about 600 bytes of traffic are saved by having
one HTTP request less.

Regards,
Rimantas
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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Christian Montoya]

Don't you just love W3C recommendations?

Google is stuck farther into the dark ages than we all thought... I
just realized Google's logo is a GIF image, and you know what that
means...

so I downloaded it, opened it with the GIMP, and saved it as a PNG
with the highest compression.

The GIF: 8.35 KB

The PNG: 7.86 KB

8.35 - 7.86 = .49 KB = ~502 bytes.

Which times 1 billion is: a lot.

Considering PNG is a W3C recommendation, this puts the total W3C savings at:

65 for Matt's page + 502 for the PNG = 567 bytes saved in total for
every one off request.

There might be some money in this "standards" thing after all.

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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Christian Montoya]

On 12/10/05, matt andrews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 10/12/05, Christian Montoya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Matt's example has more text, which explains the difference... and
> > imagine if the CSS and JS were in an external file... how often do
> > people reuse Google throughout the day? If all those users cached the
> > files, we're talking about drastic reductions in Google's bandwidth.
> >
> > It wouldn't be hard at all to lighten the page... but we knew it was a
> > good idea even before the example.
>
> Quite right - I had started with a heavier version of the page than
> the default, with Google Desktop, signed in to account, etc., which
> added a bit of text and Javascript.  Now I've done a new version,
> based on the simpler page that the W3C validator gets back from
> www.google.com.
>
> Invalid (original) page (with just 21 chars added to get a full url
> for the logo image):
> http://xomerang.com/testpages/google/invalidGoogle.html   (2,654 bytes)
>
> Updated valid page, based on the above:
> http://xomerang.com/testpages/google/validGoogle.html  (1,953 bytes)
>
> I retained the one-line Javascript in the head, but all styles are in
> an external CSS file:
> http://xomerang.com/testpages/google/validGoogle.css (636 bytes)
>
> So even for a one-off request, with no cached CSS, the valid version
> is 2589 bytes - *still* lighter weight than the current invalid
> version.

Nice job, you should get hired by Google, or at least paid big for
that page... it would save Google millions of dollars in bandwidth.
And imagine if this was done with some of their other pages (which
would take a few seconds, since their sites are so simple)... we're
talking about billions here.

Be careful Googlebot doesn't find that page, if they cache it they
might just steal the whole thing, remove the quotation marks, launch
it, and pretend it was theirs all along.

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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[matt andrews]

On 10/12/05, Christian Montoya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 12/9/05, Lea de Groot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On 10/12/2005, at 1:20 AM, matt andrews wrote:
> > > Hi Lea,  I completely agree.  Google have somehow developed a blind
> > > spot when it comes to meeting even the basics of current web
> > > standards.  As an exercise, I just threw together a valid version of
> > > the Google Search page:
> > >
> > > blog entry:
> > > http://tbp.xomerang.com/?p=18
> > >
> > > example page:
> > > http://xomerang.com/testpages/google/validGoogle.html
> >
> > Hey, cool stuff! :)
> > I thought about doing that, but decided I didn't have time.
> > Interestingly, comparing the two pages in
> > http://www.websiteoptimization.com/services/analyze/
> > shows the original is *slightly* lighter (but I bet you could beat
> > that by removing more carriage returns, same as the original)
> > Hmmm... the javascript isn't there... I wonder if it would add much
> > weight - I wonder if its reused on other pages.
> > I don't think the comparision is valid without it. :(
> >
> > Lea
>
> Matt's example has more text, which explains the difference... and
> imagine if the CSS and JS were in an external file... how often do
> people reuse Google throughout the day? If all those users cached the
> files, we're talking about drastic reductions in Google's bandwidth.
>
> It wouldn't be hard at all to lighten the page... but we knew it was a
> good idea even before the example.

Quite right - I had started with a heavier version of the page than
the default, with Google Desktop, signed in to account, etc., which
added a bit of text and Javascript.  Now I've done a new version,
based on the simpler page that the W3C validator gets back from
www.google.com.

Invalid (original) page (with just 21 chars added to get a full url
for the logo image):
http://xomerang.com/testpages/google/invalidGoogle.html   (2,654 bytes)

Updated valid page, based on the above:
http://xomerang.com/testpages/google/validGoogle.html  (1,953 bytes)

I retained the one-line Javascript in the head, but all styles are in
an external CSS file:
http://xomerang.com/testpages/google/validGoogle.css (636 bytes)

So even for a one-off request, with no cached CSS, the valid version
is 2589 bytes - *still* lighter weight than the current invalid
version.
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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Geoff Deering]

Lea de Groot wrote:


On 10/12/2005, at 1:53 PM, Brian Cummiskey wrote:


I wonder how many visits google gets in a day...



Probably in the billions - plenty of people have it as their homepage.
Of course, there'd be a lot of caching happening...

Lea



http://www.google.com.au/intl/en/press/funfacts.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_platform

What's interesting is how they have set up their server cluster (15,000 
back in 2003), which doubled from the 18 months before.  If you google 
on that you'll find many articles.


G
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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Christian Montoya]

On 12/9/05, Chris Dimmock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Either way - small coding issues (and vaildation/ use of semantic code etc)
> are going to mean a lot of bandwidth when looked at in light of that kind of
> volume...

You all act like you don't know how much bandwidth can be saved with
external stylesheets and javascript files. A lot more than "".

And why does Google have javascript on the main page? What is it
doing? Can anyone tell me?

They comment is full of itself... often times you find a solution to a
problem and think you've solved it, when you have only really found a
partial solution and not the best solution possible.

If no one else does it I'll do that Google page Monday when my exams are over.

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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Lea de Groot]

On 10/12/2005, at 1:53 PM, Brian Cummiskey wrote:

Good point.  I didn't even think about it like that.


But it cancels itself out - they are saving a byte per double-quote  
yet including inline javascript??? What kind of an argument is that?



I wonder how many visits google gets in a day...


Probably in the billions - plenty of people have it as their homepage.
Of course, there'd be a lot of caching happening...

Lea
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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Chris Dimmock]

"I wonder how many visits Google gets in a day...?"
 
Brian - I'm not sure how many visits Google gets in a day, but Danny Sullivan reported on the Nielsen netratings numbers back in July that Google has 46.2% market share of 4.5 billion searches/ month 
http://searchenginewatch.com/reports/article.php/2156451
 
"...percentage of online searches done by US home and work web surfers in July 2005 that were performed at a particular search engine. Internal site searches, such as those to find material within a particular web site, are not counted in these totals. The activity at more than 60 search sites makes up the total search volume upon which percentages are based -- 
4.5 billion searches in this month."
 
So - using these numbers - 46.2% (Google's market share) x 4.5 billion searches/ mth = 2.079 billion/ month.  I'm reading this as 'US home & work web surfers' - not a global number of searches.
 
Also, Alexa says that the average Google session is 6.2 pageviews http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?q=&url=""

 
Another number I read once was that there were approximately 320 - 350 million searches per day on the web. I can't quote you a source on that. But taken in context of Google's market share - its a huge amount of bandwidth.

 
Either way - small coding issues (and vaildation/ use of semantic code etc) are going to mean a lot of bandwidth when looked at in light of that kind of volume...
 
Best
 
Chris
 
http://www.cogentis.com.au/>Cogentis Internet Marketing
 
 

Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Brian Cummiskey]

Francesco wrote:

Multiply those two "" by millions of hits every day
and we're talking big bandwidth!


Good point.  I didn't even think about it like that.

I wonder how many visits google gets in a day...
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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Francesco]

Multiply those two "" by millions of hits every day
and we're talking big bandwidth!



--- Brian Cummiskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Chris Dimmock wrote:
> 
>   *Google's home page doesn't
> > validate and that's mostly by design to save
> precious bytes.
> 
> So, he's saying
> 
>  loads faster than  color="red">
> 
> ?
> 
> I'd like to see some documented proof of this.
> 
> 
> The homepage of google is only a couple lines of
> code... but yet they 
> have inline javascript instead of external
> cached/linked scripting..
> 
> I think their /saving precious bytes/ comment is
> full of itself.
>
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> 
> 

Francesco Sanfilippo
Web Architect and Software Developer
http://www.blackcoil.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
402-932-5695 home office
402-676-3011 mobile

Professional web developer and Internet consultant with 10 years experience.
Specializing in ASP.NET, C#, SQL Server, CSS/XHTML, and digital photography.
Founder and developer of URL123.com - now serving 2 million clicks per month.
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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Brian Cummiskey]

Chris Dimmock wrote:

 *Google's home page doesn't

validate and that's mostly by design to save precious bytes.


So, he's saying

 loads faster than 

?

I'd like to see some documented proof of this.


The homepage of google is only a couple lines of code... but yet they 
have inline javascript instead of external cached/linked scripting..


I think their /saving precious bytes/ comment is full of itself.
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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Chris Dimmock]

Michael Cordover's comments were the correct answer. :)Here is an excerpt from an Interview with Matt Cutts, Google engineer, just last month:Q: "In more general terms, what do you think is the relationship between Google and the W3C? Do you think it would be important for Google to 
e.g. be concerned about valid HTML?A: I like the W3C a lot; if they didn't exist, someone would have to invent them. :) People sometimes ask whether Google should boost (or penalize) for valid (or invalid) HTML. There are plenty of clean, perfectly validating sites, but also lots of good information on sloppy, hand-coded pages that don't validate. 
Google's home page doesn't validate and that's mostly by design to save precious bytes. Will the world end because Google doesn't put quotes around color attributes? No, and it makes the page load faster. :)
 Eric Brewer wrote a page while at Inktomi that claimed 40% of HTML pages had syntax errors. We can't throw out 40% of the web on the principle that sites should validate; we have to take the web as it is and try to make it useful to searchers, so Google's index parsing is pretty forgiving."

http://blog.outer-court.com/archive/2005-11-17-n52.htmlI suppose the real issue now is - can someone build the Google page so that it does work in all browsers; so that it validates; and so that the resultant code is 'ligher' and saves more bandwidth? After all - Google are saying there is a commercial benefit to their invalid codebase - the only way they'd consider a change - in my opinion - is for a greater commercial benefit.
 

Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Rimantas Liubertas]

<...>
> I thought about doing that, but decided I didn't have time.
> Interestingly, comparing the two pages in
> http://www.websiteoptimization.com/services/analyze/
> shows the original is *slightly* lighter (but I bet you could beat
> that by removing more carriage returns, same as the original)
<...>

You can also remove ,,
s and s and still be valid HTML4.01 strict.

Regards,
Rimantas
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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Christian Montoya]

On 12/9/05, Lea de Groot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 10/12/2005, at 1:20 AM, matt andrews wrote:
> > Hi Lea,  I completely agree.  Google have somehow developed a blind
> > spot when it comes to meeting even the basics of current web
> > standards.  As an exercise, I just threw together a valid version of
> > the Google Search page:
> >
> > blog entry:
> > http://tbp.xomerang.com/?p=18
> >
> > example page:
> > http://xomerang.com/testpages/google/validGoogle.html
>
> Hey, cool stuff! :)
> I thought about doing that, but decided I didn't have time.
> Interestingly, comparing the two pages in
> http://www.websiteoptimization.com/services/analyze/
> shows the original is *slightly* lighter (but I bet you could beat
> that by removing more carriage returns, same as the original)
> Hmmm... the javascript isn't there... I wonder if it would add much
> weight - I wonder if its reused on other pages.
> I don't think the comparision is valid without it. :(
>
> Lea

Matt's example has more text, which explains the difference... and
imagine if the CSS and JS were in an external file... how often do
people reuse Google throughout the day? If all those users cached the
files, we're talking about drastic reductions in Google's bandwidth.

It wouldn't be hard at all to lighten the page... but we knew it was a
good idea even before the example.

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Christian Montoya
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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Lea de Groot]

On 10/12/2005, at 1:20 AM, matt andrews wrote:

Hi Lea,  I completely agree.  Google have somehow developed a blind
spot when it comes to meeting even the basics of current web
standards.  As an exercise, I just threw together a valid version of
the Google Search page:

blog entry:
http://tbp.xomerang.com/?p=18

example page:
http://xomerang.com/testpages/google/validGoogle.html


Hey, cool stuff! :)
I thought about doing that, but decided I didn't have time.
Interestingly, comparing the two pages in
http://www.websiteoptimization.com/services/analyze/
shows the original is *slightly* lighter (but I bet you could beat  
that by removing more carriage returns, same as the original)
Hmmm... the javascript isn't there... I wonder if it would add much  
weight - I wonder if its reused on other pages.

I don't think the comparision is valid without it. :(

Lea
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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Christian Montoya]

On 12/9/05, Collin Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Surely either you jest, didn't read the whole article or need to update your
> feeds. ;)
>

Sorry, I should have made it more clear I was kidding. They do remind
me of that article though :)

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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[matt andrews]

On 09/12/05, Lea de Groot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 08/12/2005, at 10:29 PM, James Ellis wrote:
> > Having a valid frontend has nothing to do with whether an
> > organisation attempts to be socially responsible. I'm sure there
> > are heaps of slightly dodgy organisations out there that hire
> > programmers who understand standards.
>
> See, thats where I differ - I think that to say 'we do this other
> stuff thats Good, so we don't have to worry about something as
> trivial as Web Standards'[1] undermines all our work, which we like
> to think makes the world a Better Place.
> By declining to support Standards they implicitly state that it isn't
> important, and as I think it Is important, I feel they are not doing
> good, they are doing... that other thing ;)
>
> By being a big company (and by golly by market valuation they are
> absolutely Huge these days!) they implicitly make a massive statement
> about the value of something simply by ignoring it :(
>
> Lea
> [1] And, I must point out, in fact, they don't say any such thing -
> as usual they don't say anything at all about the matter. No one
> knows why they've never spent the 2.5 hours required to bring at
> least the home page up to standards...
> Lea de Groot

Hi Lea,  I completely agree.  Google have somehow developed a blind
spot when it comes to meeting even the basics of current web
standards.  As an exercise, I just threw together a valid version of
the Google Search page:

blog entry:
http://tbp.xomerang.com/?p=18

example page:
http://xomerang.com/testpages/google/validGoogle.html
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RE: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Collin Davis]

Surely either you jest, didn't read the whole article or need to update your
feeds. ;)

>From the article itself: 
"This is a spoof article. Please compare it with the original and you will
see how little it has been changed."

>From the blogosphere:

http://www.forgetfoo.com/?blogid=5150
http://adactio.com/journal/display.php/20051208103827.xml
http://tinyurl.com/9vowd (adactio.com - Why Nielsen Sucks (Most of the
Time))

Cheers,
Collin

Christian Montoya wrote:
>Ajax based applications like that make me think of:
>http://www.usabilityviews.com/ajaxsucks.html

>When companies are using Ajax, they usually have already thrown
>accessibility out the door. It's not often you see Ajax applications
>with good, accessible fallbacks."







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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Christian Montoya]

On 12/9/05, heretic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > OK, OK, I'll try to figure out what email address to use later today :)
>
> Interesting timing rumour is that http://www.google.com/ig is
> going to become their new "My Google" style portal page.
>
> The markup still stinks.
>

That has been around for a long time, and isn't much different from
similar portals like start.com or netvibes.

Ajax based applications like that make me think of:
http://www.usabilityviews.com/ajaxsucks.html

When companies are using Ajax, they usually have already thrown
accessibility out the door. It's not often you see Ajax applications
with good, accessible fallbacks.

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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[heretic]

> OK, OK, I'll try to figure out what email address to use later today :)

Interesting timing rumour is that http://www.google.com/ig is
going to become their new "My Google" style portal page.

The markup still stinks.

h

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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[heretic]

> > What, when I can whinge on a mailing list?
> > No, no - I'm leading open and earnest discussion, honest I am ;)
> > OK, OK, I'll try to figure out what email address to use later today :)

Yeah, good luck finding usable contact details on their site ;)

As far as I can tell, Google doesn't write valid/accessible markup
since a) there's no money in it for them, or at least not enough that
they care; and b) the average punter won't give it any cool points.

Google is motivated by money and cool. Standards don't get either one.

man, I think I need a beer now ;)

h

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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Joshua Street]

Well, if they don't know about it already, consider Gmail conspiracy
theories disproved ;-)

On 12/9/05, Lea de Groot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 09/12/2005, at 12:20 AM, Al Sparber wrote:
> > But if I were you, I'd get in touch with Google and really lay into
> > them about this :-)
>
> What, when I can whinge on a mailing list?
> No, no - I'm leading open and earnest discussion, honest I am ;)
>
> OK, OK, I'll try to figure out what email address to use later today :)
>
> Lea
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> Elysian Systems
> Brisbane Australia
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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Lea de Groot]

On 09/12/2005, at 12:20 AM, Al Sparber wrote:
But if I were you, I'd get in touch with Google and really lay into  
them about this :-)


What, when I can whinge on a mailing list?
No, no - I'm leading open and earnest discussion, honest I am ;)

OK, OK, I'll try to figure out what email address to use later today :)

Lea
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Elysian Systems
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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Christian Montoya]

On 12/8/05, Bert Doorn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> G'day
>
> Michael Cordover wrote:
> > I think that Google's failure to validate may be due to the simple
> > issue of bandwidth.  Certainly on the main page, the whole source is
> > compressed and effectively minimised.  Bandwidth is expensive these
> > days.  Inserting a doctype, separating style data, that sort of thing,
> > takes a lot of additional bandwidth when you're dealing with hits in
> > the quantities that they do.
>
> I don't follow your logic.
>
> Bandwidth is getting cheaper and cheaper, at least where I live.
>
> Getting rid of tables, font elements etc is likely to make their
> pages lighter, rather than heavier, especially when all
> presentation and behaviour is moved into (cached) external style
> sheet(s) javascript file(s) respectively.
>
> Downloading a style sheet once, or downloading all the
> presentational code on every page view - which one is going to
> cost them more in bandwidth?

Valid CSS based design would definitely improve Google's speed, not hamper it.

I think the reason Google doesn't care is just that they are already
profitable as it is. Companies like Google are driven by profit and
they are the market leader in what they do. If I went to Google and
told them that changing their front end would allow them to reach more
customer and become more profitable, they wouldn't see the need.

And though they have a good laugh with the "do no evil" foolery, they
don't really care if their markup is inaccessible. Someone mentioned
they are back-end programmers, and from dealing with back-end
programmers at school, I know that most of them consider HTML to be
really easy and pointless so they don't bother or care to learn how to
use HTML correctly. If I told them how complex HTML/XHTML/CSS really
is they would think I was crazy.

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Re: [WSG] *Why* doesn't Google validate? was New logo scheme was talking points for standards

[Bert Doorn]

G'day

Michael Cordover wrote:

I think that Google's failure to validate may be due to the simple
issue of bandwidth.  Certainly on the main page, the whole source is
compressed and effectively minimised.  Bandwidth is expensive these
days.  Inserting a doctype, separating style data, that sort of thing,
takes a lot of additional bandwidth when you're dealing with hits in
the quantities that they do.


I don't follow your logic.

Bandwidth is getting cheaper and cheaper, at least where I live.

Getting rid of tables, font elements etc is likely to make their 
pages lighter, rather than heavier, especially when all 
presentation and behaviour is moved into (cached) external style 
sheet(s) javascript file(s) respectively.


Downloading a style sheet once, or downloading all the 
presentational code on every page view - which one is going to 
cost them more in bandwidth?


Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

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