Re: Happy with Yojimbo the way it is!

2008-05-02 Thread Krzysztof Maj


On 2008-05-01, at 04:44, Charlie Garrison wrote:


Good afternoon,

On 30/4/08 at 5:31 PM -0400, Luis Roca [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:



With that said I’m going to make a non-feature request to the Bare
Bones/Yojimbo team : Please don’t include a nested folder feature  
in the

next or any future releases of Yojimbo. PLEASE!!!


How refreshing, thanks Luis.  :-)

I'm also another very satisfied Yojimbo user. When I first started  
using it, I was creating collections and diligently filing new  
items. I never use collections now. The search field is way more  
flexible and very quick. I just add items to Y and trust they will  
be there when I need them.


The content/indexing of items is generally enough to search on (for  
bookmarks I will often grab the first paragraph of the page to add  
to comment field). And even though I was using tags religiously,  
I've even stopped doing that expect for rare circumstances.


Yojimbo is my knowledge base, and I've never had any trouble finding  
info I need. Well, that's not true, I have had problems but it's my  
own fault for not having moved everything from DevonTHINK yet. So if  
it's info from that long ago, I fire up DevonTHINK, find the info I  
was missing, and add it to Yojimbo.


And for everyone else who feels they MUST continue asking for the  
kitchen sink, Please read the last two lines of the sig on every  
message on this list. I want to use this list to learn how to better  
use the program we have, not speculate on how an excellent program  
can maybe improve marginally.





Hi all,
well I see that everybody are very heppy using Yojimbo, which is good.  
I am also happy Yojimbo user, and I am still trying to get used to  
pholosophy of personal management in Yojimbo. It is getting more and  
more suited for my needs, but when you are using such kind of program  
you need more and more. I don't want to have big application for  
everything, but some features IMHO need to be implemented if Yojimbo  
want to be on top of today personal management application market.  
Now we have centrilized iCal/TODO store in the Leopard for instance,  
we have more and more multimedia staff on our HDD so the list of smart  
collection is growing and growing and tha last, but no least tagging.  
Would be really nice to have all the home brewed apple scripts  
implemented in Yojimbo to do PDF Save with tags, automatically tag the  
items when you drag them to the smart collection, import NetNewsWire  
webpages with tags etc. Now you have to look throught the Internet  
sites to find the proper script or try do it by yourself right? So why  
do not implement all these functionalities to Yojimbo?


Krzysztof Maj


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Re: Happy with Yojimbo the way it is!

2008-05-01 Thread Krzysztof Maj


On 2008-05-01, at 04:44, Charlie Garrison wrote:


Good afternoon,

On 30/4/08 at 5:31 PM -0400, Luis Roca [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:



With that said I’m going to make a non-feature request to the Bare
Bones/Yojimbo team : Please don’t include a nested folder feature  
in the

next or any future releases of Yojimbo. PLEASE!!!


How refreshing, thanks Luis.  :-)

I'm also another very satisfied Yojimbo user. When I first started  
using it, I was creating collections and diligently filing new  
items. I never use collections now. The search field is way more  
flexible and very quick. I just add items to Y and trust they will  
be there when I need them.


The content/indexing of items is generally enough to search on (for  
bookmarks I will often grab the first paragraph of the page to add  
to comment field). And even though I was using tags religiously,  
I've even stopped doing that expect for rare circumstances.


Yojimbo is my knowledge base, and I've never had any trouble finding  
info I need. Well, that's not true, I have had problems but it's my  
own fault for not having moved everything from DevonTHINK yet. So if  
it's info from that long ago, I fire up DevonTHINK, find the info I  
was missing, and add it to Yojimbo.


And for everyone else who feels they MUST continue asking for the  
kitchen sink, Please read the last two lines of the sig on every  
message on this list. I want to use this list to learn how to better  
use the program we have, not speculate on how an excellent program  
can maybe improve marginally.




Hi all,
well I see that everybody are very heppy using Yojimbo, which is good.  
I am also happy Yojimbo user, and I am still trying to get used to  
pholosophy of personal management in Yojimbo. It is getting more and  
more suited for my needs, but when you are using such kind of program  
you need more and more. I don't want to have big application for  
everything, but some features IMHO need to be implemented if Yojimbo  
want to be on top of today personal management application market.  
Now we have centrilized iCal/TODO store in the Leopard for instance,  
we have more and more multimedia staff on our HDD so the list of smart  
collection is growing and growing and tha last, but no least tagging.  
Would be really nice to have all the home brewed apple scripts  
implemented in Yojimbo to do PDF Save with tags, automatically tag the  
items when you drag them to the smart collection, import NetNewsWire  
webpages with tags etc. Now you have to look throught the Internet  
sites to find the proper script or try do it by yourself right? So why  
do not implement all these functionalities to Yojimbo?


Krzysztof Maj 
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Re: Happy with Yojimbo the way it is!

2008-05-01 Thread Michael Klouda
Lists like these are easy places for people who are very happy with an  
program to start building wish lists and even discuss shortcomings and  
workarounds. I don't think the people on this list are unhappy with  
Yojimbo in anyway. Really, how can they be? It is an excellent program  
and one that I recommend to anyone who asks. Any many who don't.


I follow the GTD methodology quite seriously but as it is stated  
clearly, everyone needs to make their own system for Getting Things  
Done. Mr. Allen explains his reasonings and methods but everyone needs  
to look at themselves and the work and figure out how to make it work  
for them. I use just one program for my GTD system and it is Yojimbo.  
It is not designed for this, but it provides everything I need to make  
my own version work. I own other tools such as Omnifocus, and have run  
with Thinking Rock, Tasks and others for awhile, but they did not work  
for me because I needed a bit more control over the system.


At the end of the day though, within Yojimbo I could use nested  
folders for more organizing. It is one of two features that could be  
added that would be of great value. I don't 'need' them, but would  
sure use them. It is not a make or break feature, but one that I would  
sing out for joy if it were added.


And to clarify, my system is not waaay to complicated :-)  If  
you give someone folders it is natural for them to want to put them  
into drawers or boxes or other folders. That is what a folder is, a  
collection of things. I don't have 100 loose folders lying around my  
actual physical desk. I have them organized in groups and categories  
in a drawer and on an organizer. Asking Barebones to take this pretty  
standard methodology for grouping items together is not a stretch or a  
failing in anyones system. You don't have to use it, it may be  
somewhat archaic when you have search, and tags and labels, but it is  
also simple and clean and comfortable to many people.




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Re: Happy with Yojimbo the way it is!

2008-05-01 Thread david
It's partly inertia - using what you know. The Finder has nested  
folders, we all understand nested folders. We understand how to use  
nested folders to solve a problem...ergo we ask for nested folders to  
solve similar problems in Yojimbo.


Frankly, until I started using tags in the Finder I didn't see tags as  
a solution to a problem - I saw them as solutions in search of a  
problem. Further, until Leopard I - and frankly until Leopard and  
HoudahSpot - I didn't start using tags. So seeing tags as a solution  
to my Yojimbo tasks took a while.


But to go even one step further, Folders are more in your face and  
tags are more retiring and shy. (What the heck does he mean by that?)  
In the old Finder days I'd get or create a file and have to decide  
where to put it. Okay, so it is a work file - I already have  a folder  
called work. That's easy. Hey, I have five folders inside Work and the  
file fits best inside Requisitions. Problem solved.


New style I have to remember that I have tags called Work and  
Requisitions. Thankfully Yojimbo does autocompletion in the Tags  
Inspector which works well - if I remember that the tag was called  
Work as opposed to North Campus Office. Since Tags aren't in my face  
the way a nested folder is when I open the file selector, I have to  
think a little more, plan a little better, and sometimes go looking.  
It irritates me no end when I discover that I have half a dozen  
documents with one tab and a couple more with a different tab that  
means the same thing.


Even now I'm not convinced that tabs are the logical replacement for  
nested folders. A useful tool, yes - but a replacement? I'm not  
convinced yet. But since this is the only complaint I have about  
Yojimbo I stick with it. However I have also let the developers know  
in no uncertain terms that when/if a program comes along that fits as  
well as Yojimbo and offers nested folders, I may well be outa here.


david

On May 1, 2008, at 3:16 PM, Scott J. Lopez wrote:


for the people asking for nested folders, how could tags not help you
instead? instead off

[Some things]
[Sub-Some things]

you could set up tags:

SomeThings
SomeThings:sub1
SomeThings:sub2

Then just search on those tags? Even better, you could (creating a
mess) have something in two sub folders at the same time using this
method, eliminating duplicates.

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade. Yojimbo doesn't give us
nested folders, but you can work around that with creative thinking.

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Re: Happy with Yojimbo the way it is!

2008-05-01 Thread Kenneth Kirksey


On May 1, 2008, at 4:28 PM, david wrote:
Even now I'm not convinced that tabs are the logical replacement for  
nested folders. A useful tool, yes - but a replacement? I'm not  
convinced yet.


When Yojimbo first came out I thought the lack of nested folders was a  
limitation. It took me a while, but I'm fully converted to the tag it  
and dump it all in one place method of organizing, and Yojimbo is  
primarily responsible for helping me see the advantages.


Nested folders were once the best solution to organizing files on a  
computer, but now that we have very fast computers that can find  
things very quickly, the need for nested folders is going away. In  
fact, since we have such large hard drives that can store so many  
files, nested folders have begun to become a hindrance rather than a  
help in finding documents.


Here's an example of the now what folder did I put that in problem.  
In Mail I have _one_ folder in which I store the current year's sent  
and received messages. When I want to find a message, I can just  
search, usually by subject, sender, or recipient and find the message  
I want in a couple of seconds. I save tons of time over when I used to  
have bunches of folders in which I could store emails. My father still  
uses the bunches of folders method, and half the time when he goes to  
find an email he can't find it because he can't remember which folder  
he put it in.


Another thing I do to help me find files easily is giving them very  
descriptive file names, both in Yojimbo and in the Finder. For  
instance, a receipt from LL Bean might be named:


LL Bean - 2008.04.21 - Shirts for Spring

and tagged receipts. Or an article I downloaded from New Scientist  
might be named:


Do we read too much into our need for sleep? - being-human - 15 March  
2008 - New Scientist


and tagged appropriately. I'd say 80% of the time I search on a file  
name to find what I'm looking for. As  you noted, I think inertia  
keeps most people thinking they have to keep their file names under 32  
characters. My goal is to name files so that not only I know what's in  
them, but so that anyone that looked at a file on my computer would  
know what's in it based on the name. I believe that if people gave  
their files good descriptive names, the fuss about tagging vs. nested  
folders would nearly be a non-issue.


All IMHO of course.



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Re: Happy with Yojimbo the way it is!

2008-04-30 Thread Carlton Gibson

I see a lot of messages out there requsting Yojimbo did a lot of
things it doesn't and I just want to tell the developers I'm quite
happy with Yojimbo the way it is.



I love Yojimbo as it is too!

Perhaps it needs to say at the top of the viewer window, Not a  
replacement for Finder.app :-) 


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Re: Happy with Yojimbo the way it is!

2008-04-30 Thread Claude

Hi !
Yojimbo is OK but, for me, it lacks one very useful feature : you  
cannot have sub-folders. And I have now a too long list on my  
collection pane, so long that I think of working with another  
application (unfortunately).

Claude


Le 30 avr. 08 à 02:54, Keith Ledbetter a écrit :



On Apr 29, 2008, at 1:41 PM, Scott J. Lopez wrote:


I see a lot of messages out there requsting Yojimbo did a lot of
things it doesn't and I just want to tell the developers I'm quite
happy with Yojimbo the way it is.


I think Yojimbo is a fine little application, too.  It's just a  
shame that because it lacks one feature (nested collections) I had  
to delete it from my hard drive.   I keep monitoring online, and I  
keep hoping that one day that needed feature will be added.  People  
with as much data as I have can't live without nested collections.


Keith




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Re: Happy with Yojimbo the way it is!

2008-04-30 Thread n . kobschaetzki
Yojimbo is nice but i thought about migrating to other applications as
well because of the backup-issue. But I even refrained from testing
other apps because I have absolutely no idea how I get all my data
with meta-data (tags, urls) from yojimbo into other apps. How would
you solve it when you would decide to move?
But that problem occours with all of the applications out there - no
good import filters from other similar apps

Niels


On 4/30/08, Claude [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi !
 Yojimbo is OK but, for me, it lacks one very useful feature : you
 cannot have sub-folders. And I have now a too long list on my
 collection pane, so long that I think of working with another
 application (unfortunately).
 Claude


 Le 30 avr. 08 à 02:54, Keith Ledbetter a écrit :

 
  On Apr 29, 2008, at 1:41 PM, Scott J. Lopez wrote:
 
  I see a lot of messages out there requsting Yojimbo did a lot of
  things it doesn't and I just want to tell the developers I'm quite
  happy with Yojimbo the way it is.
 
  I think Yojimbo is a fine little application, too.  It's just a
  shame that because it lacks one feature (nested collections) I had
  to delete it from my hard drive.   I keep monitoring online, and I
  keep hoping that one day that needed feature will be added.  People
  with as much data as I have can't live without nested collections.
 
  Keith
 


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Re: Happy with Yojimbo the way it is!

2008-04-30 Thread Kenneth Kirksey


On Apr 30, 2008, at 7:41 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 But I even refrained from testing
other apps because I have absolutely no idea how I get all my data
with meta-data (tags, urls) from yojimbo into other apps. How would
you solve it when you would decide to move?


When I got Leap http://www.ironicsoftware.com/leap/index.html and  
decide to move some large PDF documents out of Yojimbo and into the  
Finder I used the Export with Comment Tags Applescript:


http://anoved.net/2007/08/yojimbo-export-with-comment-tags.html

You could probably create an Applescript to export the Yojimbo items  
with whatever metadata items you wanted.




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Re: Happy with Yojimbo the way it is!

2008-04-30 Thread cubic . archon


On 29 Apr 2008, at 19:38, Scott J. Lopez wrote:


Krzysztof, my message wasn't directed at you specificlly but in
response to the many I wish Yojimbo did... messages I've seen over
the years on this list.

Yojimbo is a nice, small application that was meant for organizing
some specific types of data. It's fast, it's lean, and it just
works. I remember when BBEdit was a small lean application that grew
and grew over the years into a very powerful IDE. It grew so large
that BareBones decided to release TextWrangler (another great product)
to bring back a small, lean text editor. Some of us don't need all the
power of BBEdit, and some of us don't need Yojimbo to edit PDF files,
graphics, store video, manage my todo's, manage my files, develop web
sites, blog, upload, download, and many of the other requests I've
seen here. I'm sure if the developers took all time to add all these
featuers it would take years of man-power and the price would
skyrocket.

I am just posting a reminder to Bare Bones that your product is well
appreciated as is! Maybe there are some others out there like me?


Oh, it certainly is appreciated - I have been using Yojimbo for just  
over two years now, and it's one of the few applications on the Mac  
that I have used consistently for all that time. (During that time I  
have gotten used to the idea that there are unlikely to ever be nested  
folders :) I have tried a few more general organisers which handle all  
sorts of files and I find that they actually slow me down - I would  
rather just know where my project directories are and edit things from  
there, rather than have to edit, re-import, update checksums and so  
on. Yojimbo's excellent Applescript support means that I can do an  
awful lot of custom work as well.


(I would very much like to have more powerful smart folders mind you,  
which are not just AND tag lists. I think that's in the vein of the  
Applescript support i.e. allowing users to set up their own filters  
and process things their own way if they need to.)


It does take all sorts though; I know people who swear by EagleFiler,  
or Evernote, or plain text notes or whatever.


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Re: Happy with Yojimbo the way it is!

2008-04-30 Thread Ron Kubsch

I totally agree. It needs to have sub-folders!

Greetings, Ron

Am 30.04.2008 um 09:42 schrieb Claude:


Hi !
Yojimbo is OK but, for me, it lacks one very useful feature : you  
cannot have sub-folders. And I have now a too long list on my  
collection pane, so long that I think of working with another  
application (unfortunately).

Claude


Le 30 avr. 08 à 02:54, Keith Ledbetter a écrit :



On Apr 29, 2008, at 1:41 PM, Scott J. Lopez wrote:


I see a lot of messages out there requsting Yojimbo did a lot of
things it doesn't and I just want to tell the developers I'm quite
happy with Yojimbo the way it is.


I think Yojimbo is a fine little application, too.  It's just a  
shame that because it lacks one feature (nested collections) I had  
to delete it from my hard drive.   I keep monitoring online, and I  
keep hoping that one day that needed feature will be added.  People  
with as much data as I have can't live without nested collections.


Keith




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Re: Happy with Yojimbo the way it is!

2008-04-30 Thread David G. Simmons

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Well, if anyone wants to switch to SOHO notes, Ill sell you my family  
pack license. Or exchange it for your family pack license for Yojimbo.  
I have severe buyers-remorse and wish I had bought Yojimbo instead of  
SOHO.


dg

On Apr 30, 2008, at 9:57 AM, Ron Kubsch wrote:


I totally agree. It needs to have sub-folders!

Greetings, Ron

Am 30.04.2008 um 09:42 schrieb Claude:


Hi !
Yojimbo is OK but, for me, it lacks one very useful feature : you  
cannot have sub-folders. And I have now a too long list on my  
collection pane, so long that I think of working with another  
application (unfortunately).

Claude


Le 30 avr. 08 à 02:54, Keith Ledbetter a écrit :



On Apr 29, 2008, at 1:41 PM, Scott J. Lopez wrote:


I see a lot of messages out there requsting Yojimbo did a lot of
things it doesn't and I just want to tell the developers I'm quite
happy with Yojimbo the way it is.


I think Yojimbo is a fine little application, too.  It's just a  
shame that because it lacks one feature (nested collections) I had  
to delete it from my hard drive.   I keep monitoring online, and I  
keep hoping that one day that needed feature will be added.   
People with as much data as I have can't live without nested  
collections.


Keith




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Re: Happy with Yojimbo the way it is!

2008-04-30 Thread Luis Roca
I'm really glad someone spoke up for Yojimbo! (Thanks Scott) I've been
getting tired of seeing this list become a dump for what people don't
like about Yojimbo and move away from being a helpful resource. I have
no problem with feature requests but It's been absolutely over the top
in the last few months. I asked a pretty simple question just after the
latest release regarding moving PDFs of images to the new Image smart
collection. The question got completely lost in the sea of feature
requests and was never answered. (I came up with a solution a few days
later.)

With that said I’m going to make a non-feature request to the Bare
Bones/Yojimbo team : Please don’t include a nested folder feature in the
next or any future releases of Yojimbo. PLEASE!!!

I know this has been said before on this list but I’m going to repeat
it. If tagging, labels, smart collections, tag collections, search, date
sorting, file type sorting and folders (even if they aren’t nested), are
not enough for you to organize your information then :

1. Your archiving system is waaay to complicated. In which case
I would highly recommend the book “Getting Things Done” by David Allen.

2. Yojimbo just doesn’t work with your personal information management
style. If you want nested folders with the ability to quickly add and
retrieve then upgrade to Leopard and just use the Finder in combination
with Spotlight and/or Quicksilver.

Yojimbo does what it's supposed to do really, really well. Simplify the
process of archiving and retrieving reference items. Bare Bones doesn't
promise any more or less and they shouldn't. Read the product
description : http://www.barebones.com/products/yojimbo/index.shtml
and find the section on how Yojimbo is an excellent calendar, mail, blog
cms, rss feed reader and alternative operating system. Did you find it?
Hopefully you never will.

Bare Bones, your product is AWESOME!!! Thank you for making one part of
my life simple.

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Re: Happy with Yojimbo the way it is!

2008-04-30 Thread Charlie Garrison

Good afternoon,

On 30/4/08 at 5:31 PM -0400, Luis Roca 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



With that said I’m going to make a non-feature request to the Bare
Bones/Yojimbo team : Please don’t include a nested folder feature in the
next or any future releases of Yojimbo. PLEASE!!!


How refreshing, thanks Luis.  :-)

I'm also another very satisfied Yojimbo user. When I first 
started using it, I was creating collections and diligently 
filing new items. I never use collections now. The search field 
is way more flexible and very quick. I just add items to Y and 
trust they will be there when I need them.


The content/indexing of items is generally enough to search on 
(for bookmarks I will often grab the first paragraph of the page 
to add to comment field). And even though I was using tags 
religiously, I've even stopped doing that expect for rare circumstances.


Yojimbo is my knowledge base, and I've never had any trouble 
finding info I need. Well, that's not true, I have had problems 
but it's my own fault for not having moved everything from 
DevonTHINK yet. So if it's info from that long ago, I fire up 
DevonTHINK, find the info I was missing, and add it to Yojimbo.


And for everyone else who feels they MUST continue asking for 
the kitchen sink, Please read the last two lines of the sig on 
every message on this list. I want to use this list to learn how 
to better use the program we have, not speculate on how an 
excellent program can maybe improve marginally.



Charlie

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   Charlie Garrison  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   PO Box 141, Windsor, NSW 2756, Australia

O ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org
http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt

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Re: Happy with Yojimbo the way it is!

2008-04-29 Thread Krzysztof Maj


On 2008-04-29, at 19:41, Scott J. Lopez wrote:


I see a lot of messages out there requsting Yojimbo did a lot of
things it doesn't and I just want to tell the developers I'm quite
happy with Yojimbo the way it is. Maybe a few bugs need to be fixed
but please don't give in to feature creep and try to make Yojimbo
the kitchen sink application. I keep Yojimbo running 7x24 and don't
want it to become a hog on resources. Yojimbo does what it does and
does so very well.

Thank you Barebones!


Well, I am also happy with Yojimbo. It is very stable and rock solid  
application, but would be great to have just a little more  
functionality. I am not gonna say that I want to make Yojimbo kitchen  
sink application, but please read my post, do you think that these  
features would make Yojimbo so havy? It is just some tweaks around  
which are not tend to change the overall Yojimbo idea. Just make it  
more productive, that's it.


All the best,
--
Krzysztof Maj, JNCIP-M/T
I'm a [EMAIL PROTECTED], are you still a PC?



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Re: Happy with Yojimbo the way it is!

2008-04-29 Thread Scott J. Lopez
Krzysztof, my message wasn't directed at you specificlly but in
response to the many I wish Yojimbo did... messages I've seen over
the years on this list.

Yojimbo is a nice, small application that was meant for organizing
some specific types of data. It's fast, it's lean, and it just
works. I remember when BBEdit was a small lean application that grew
and grew over the years into a very powerful IDE. It grew so large
that BareBones decided to release TextWrangler (another great product)
to bring back a small, lean text editor. Some of us don't need all the
power of BBEdit, and some of us don't need Yojimbo to edit PDF files,
graphics, store video, manage my todo's, manage my files, develop web
sites, blog, upload, download, and many of the other requests I've
seen here. I'm sure if the developers took all time to add all these
featuers it would take years of man-power and the price would
skyrocket.

I am just posting a reminder to Bare Bones that your product is well
appreciated as is! Maybe there are some others out there like me?

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 9:57 AM, Krzysztof Maj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  On 2008-04-29, at 19:41, Scott J. Lopez wrote:


  I see a lot of messages out there requsting Yojimbo did a lot of
  things it doesn't and I just want to tell the developers I'm quite
  happy with Yojimbo the way it is. Maybe a few bugs need to be fixed
  but please don't give in to feature creep and try to make Yojimbo
  the kitchen sink application. I keep Yojimbo running 7x24 and don't
  want it to become a hog on resources. Yojimbo does what it does and
  does so very well.
 
  Thank you Barebones!
 

  Well, I am also happy with Yojimbo. It is very stable and rock solid
 application, but would be great to have just a little more functionality. I
 am not gonna say that I want to make Yojimbo kitchen sink application, but
 please read my post, do you think that these features would make Yojimbo so
 havy? It is just some tweaks around which are not tend to change the overall
 Yojimbo idea. Just make it more productive, that's it.

  All the best,

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Re: Happy with Yojimbo the way it is!

2008-04-29 Thread Keith Ledbetter


On Apr 29, 2008, at 1:41 PM, Scott J. Lopez wrote:


I see a lot of messages out there requsting Yojimbo did a lot of
things it doesn't and I just want to tell the developers I'm quite
happy with Yojimbo the way it is.


I think Yojimbo is a fine little application, too.  It's just a shame  
that because it lacks one feature (nested collections) I had to delete  
it from my hard drive.   I keep monitoring online, and I keep hoping  
that one day that needed feature will be added.  People with as much  
data as I have can't live without nested collections.


Keith


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