[Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
** Changed in: zeitgeist
Milestone: 0.4.1 => 0.5.0
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What value should subject.origin have?
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>> info.get_uri().rpartition("/")[0]
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[Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
** Changed in: zeitgeist
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[Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
** Branch linked: lp:~zeitgeist/zeitgeist/sort-by-orig
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[Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
Considering Siegfried's comment #23 and Michal's comment #24, and with a
free interpretation of Seif's "domain" moniker in comment #27 I think we
actually agree more or less on what to put in origin. I'll write a draft
docstring and put up a branch for review.
Watch this space - we may actually be able to close this bug at long
last ;-)
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[Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
I personally don't like that, you can have a simple method which will
extract the domain from uri, on the other hand having possibility to
create at least a partial tree of how you got to a uri is more useful.
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[Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
Ok this issue has to be settled once and for all
IMHO I think it makes sense to look at origin as the "domain" of the subject
of the event in question. Maybe Subject.origin is a better interpretation than
event.origin but this would mean an API break.
The benefits of having origin follow the proposed schema is:
1) we can sort by domain (websites or folders)
2) we assist kamstrup and the unity team with their development
3) it will allow easier grouping on a UI level :)
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[Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
** Changed in: zeitgeist
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Re: [Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
So lets say i switched from i opened a website the a document
will the website be the origin of the document... if yes i think this is
kinda wrong. since we are talking about a subject origin as opposed to what
you are suggesting what i would call a event origin...
Lets have an irc meeting...
With the wildcards coming up we could rethink that...
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 8:19 PM, Siegfried Gevatter wrote:
> 2010/5/14 Michal Hruby :
> > Therefore the web page visit event could have as origin set -- the domain
> Completely agree.
>
> > As for Mikkel's IM use case, I don't think it's ZG's job to log every
> message, so there'd be only some kind of CONVERSATION_STARTED event
> Completely agree.
>
> :)
>
> --
> What value should subject.origin have?
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/487321
> You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to The
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>
> Bug description:
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> info.get_uri().rpartition("/")[0]
>
> WHY?
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
2010/5/14 Michal Hruby :
> Therefore the web page visit event could have as origin set -- the domain
Completely agree.
> As for Mikkel's IM use case, I don't think it's ZG's job to log every
> message, so there'd be only some kind of CONVERSATION_STARTED event
Completely agree.
:)
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[Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
I think that it makes sense to store in subject.origin the location
where subject.uri can be found. Therefore the web page visit events
could have as origin set either their referrer page or the domain (only
if referrer is unavailable, since we can parse the domain from uri
anyway).
As for Mikkel's IM use case, I don't think it's ZG's job to log every message,
so there'd be only some kind of CONVERSATION_STARTED event, and I'd suggest
this:
event.actor = "mailto:john@example.com";
subject.uri = # uri of conversation log *
subject.origin = # location where log is saved
subject.text = "Conversation with %s" % real_name
subject.mimetype = # mimetype of uri
* If there's no log, uri, origin and mimetype are empty.
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[Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
** Changed in: zeitgeist
Milestone: 0.3.1 => 0.3.4
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Re: [Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
2010/1/8 Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen :
> subject.origin = "mailto:john@example.com";
Good point.
I suppose finding out whether you are talking to John Doe because you
clicked on a link in some file isn't really doable, so storing the
mail there for IM and the web for browser activities (if you agree
with having that) sounds good to me. Can we find some description for
the "origin" field which covers both cases without having to list them
explicitly (ie. not having a different explanation of it for every
activity type)?
> It doesn't make much sense to store app://telepathy.desktop or
> app://empathy.desktop in event.actor because I have no way of knowing
> which app shows the message to the user
Uhm, that may be problematic.
Maybe we can just have something a la "genericapp://im" and let apps
look up what the default IM client is and show that. There may be
different clients for supporting different protocols though, so it's
not so easy.
> I missed a subject.uri in my previous comment... I don't really know
> what to store in there..?
IMHO it should be something which when clicked shows the logs of the
conversation.
I discussed this with Gerfried Fuchs (upstream developer for the IRC
client "Smuxi"), who wants to add Zeitgeist support to Smuxi, and he
said he'd think of a scheme for irc://, which we can then discuss with
other IM client developers.
--
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Free Software Developer 363DEAE3
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Re: [Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
u forgot the subject uri
I agree we shouldnt put telepathy.desktop in
This is a use case where empathy cant even inform us what happened since we
r hooked into telepathy. plus a telepathy .desktop does nto exist.
yet i see no alternative atm.
Let us think about it today in some sort of meeting...
when do u have time?
2010/1/8 Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen
> I missed a subject.uri in my previous comment... I don't really know
> what to store in there..?
>
> --
> What value should subject.origin have?
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/487321
> You received this bug notification because you are a member of Zeitgeist
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>
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>
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> >> + origin =
> info.get_uri().rpartition("/")[0]
>
> WHY?
>
>
>
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[Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
I missed a subject.uri in my previous comment... I don't really know
what to store in there..?
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[Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
One use case I want to cover also is IM messages, I am working on a
Telepathy observer that logs chats to Zg. How would I model this via the
Zg datamodel? Let's see...
So I observe that john@example.com sends me the message "Hello
Dolly" via MSN. His real name is John Doe, I can this from Telepathy as
well. The formal identifier for the sender should be "mailto:
john@example.com" using the standard IANA mailto URI-scheme, I would
tend to store this in subject.origin - the alternative would
event.actor.
It doesn't make much sense to store app://telepathy.desktop or
app://empathy.desktop in event.actor because I have no way of knowing
which app shows the message to the user - it could indeed be multiple
apps...
It would be most convenient if I also stored the real name, "John Doe"
somehwhere with the event so that apps wouldn't have to talk Telepathy
to display real names. I could either prepend it to subject.text or
somehow encode it in event.payload (fx. a json map of extra attributes).
event.timestamp = int(time.time()*1000)
event.interpretation = Interpretation.RECEIVE_EVENT
event.manifestation = Manifestation.WORLD_ACTIVITY ***
event.actor = ??
event.payload =
subject.interpretation = Interpretation.IM_MESSAGE
subject.manifestation = ??
subject.origin = "mailto:john@example.com";
subject.text = "Hello Dolly"
subject.mimetype = "text/plain"
***) I tentatively introduced the WORLD_ACTIVITY event manifestation
because I think USER_NOTIFICATION would be wrong here
Anyway - it's just a very real use case which is relevant to this
discussion...
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Re: [Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
We will then have to fully rely on external dataproviders for that
2010/1/7 Siegfried Gevatter
> 2010/1/7 Seif Lotfy :
> > yes event origin should tell us which subject triggered it
> > but Again this is going to be a hard implementation. Imagine opening a
> doc,
> > then quickly check mail, then open something related to the doc (call it
> x).
>
> No, because "origin" would be something the data provider gives (in my
> example above, I guess we can forget for now about knowing that
> searchengine.com came from the ODT, but the other ones between Firefox
> items only are certainly possible).
>
> --
> Siegfried-Angel Gevatter Pujals (RainCT)
> Free Software Developer 363DEAE3
>
> --
> What value should subject.origin have?
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/487321
> You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to The
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>
> Bug description:
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> info.get_uri().rpartition("/")[0]
>
> WHY?
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
2010/1/7 Seif Lotfy :
> yes event origin should tell us which subject triggered it
> but Again this is going to be a hard implementation. Imagine opening a doc,
> then quickly check mail, then open something related to the doc (call it x).
No, because "origin" would be something the data provider gives (in my
example above, I guess we can forget for now about knowing that
searchengine.com came from the ODT, but the other ones between Firefox
items only are certainly possible).
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Re: [Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
yes event origin should tell us which subject triggered it
but Again this is going to be a hard implementation. Imagine opening a doc,
then quickly check mail, then open something related to the doc (call it x).
the little mail there messes up the equations plus there is not way to have
the event.origin(x) = doc
just my opinion
2010/1/7 Siegfried Gevatter
> 2009/12/8 Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen :
> > "Domain" seems to imply that it is the place where the subject is
> > currently located. It also strikes me as a very vague and possibly
> > ambiguous word here.
>
> Agreed, "root" would be a better name.
>
> > If we take an example where I donwload the file from the above URL,
> > there are three interesting URIs to log:
>
> I don't remember how we came to discussing this, but let me explain my
> position on this again.
>
>
> If you really want "root" -let's call it like this for now- for
> optimizing whatever you want to optimize (I'm still not sure what you
> want it for...), then it should be an implementation detail which
> isn't exposed in the API. It doesn't make any sense for it to be
> there.
>
> Completely unrelated, I propose that we add a new property to events,
> called "origin". This property would cover "where does this event come
> from, ie. what other subject triggered it".
>
> So for example if you open project.odt and there click on
> searchengine.com and search for elephants which brings you to
> searchengine.com/elephants and there you click on
> elephants.com/the-truth-about-them that would give you the events:
> - uri: file:///home/humanoid/project.odt, origin: None
> - uri: searchengine.com, origin: file:///home/humanoid/project.odt
> ... some other events because in the middle you talked to an IM contact
> ...
> - uri: searchengine.com/elephants, origin: searchengine.com
> ... some other events because you switched to another tab and looked
> up photos of elements there ...
> - uri: elephants.com/the-truth-about-them, origin:
> searchengine.com/elephants
>
> The case of downloads gets more complicated so let's not get into it
> just right now.
>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Siegfried-Angel Gevatter Pujals (RainCT)
> Free Software Developer 363DEAE3
>
> --
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> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/487321
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>
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> info.get_uri().rpartition("/")[0]
>
> WHY?
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
2009/12/8 Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen :
> "Domain" seems to imply that it is the place where the subject is
> currently located. It also strikes me as a very vague and possibly
> ambiguous word here.
Agreed, "root" would be a better name.
> If we take an example where I donwload the file from the above URL,
> there are three interesting URIs to log:
I don't remember how we came to discussing this, but let me explain my
position on this again.
If you really want "root" -let's call it like this for now- for
optimizing whatever you want to optimize (I'm still not sure what you
want it for...), then it should be an implementation detail which
isn't exposed in the API. It doesn't make any sense for it to be
there.
Completely unrelated, I propose that we add a new property to events,
called "origin". This property would cover "where does this event come
from, ie. what other subject triggered it".
So for example if you open project.odt and there click on
searchengine.com and search for elephants which brings you to
searchengine.com/elephants and there you click on
elephants.com/the-truth-about-them that would give you the events:
- uri: file:///home/humanoid/project.odt, origin: None
- uri: searchengine.com, origin: file:///home/humanoid/project.odt
... some other events because in the middle you talked to an IM contact ...
- uri: searchengine.com/elephants, origin: searchengine.com
... some other events because you switched to another tab and looked
up photos of elements there ...
- uri: elephants.com/the-truth-about-them, origin: searchengine.com/elephants
The case of downloads gets more complicated so let's not get into it
just right now.
Cheers,
--
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Free Software Developer 363DEAE3
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[Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
Unless we can settle this issue right now I think we should punt this to
0.3.2
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[Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
I am not sure Tracker's goal is to store metadata about non-existing
items (fx. if I delete an image Tracker also forgets that the image had
a width of 500px, but I could be wrong). Indeed I may also download a
file to a directory Tracker is not even monitoring.
The origin URL of a file is certainly something that Tracker should be
storing - I am not arguing with that. However there is a semantic
difference in "I have this file with inode X and it was downloaded from
http://bar/foo.txt"; and the statement "at 12:34:47 today I started a
download of http://bar/foo into ~/foo.txt".
The log statement is valid disregarding the time and what you do to your
files afterwards. The metadata property of the downloaded file is not a
perpetual truth. That's why I think that this info is *also* data we
should log.
Maybe the trick is really to consider a download as two events. The
click on the download link and the act of saving/choosing the designated
local file. Consider:
First I have my browser on http://wikipedia.org and I click the download
link;
interp.=VISIT_EVENT, origin=http://wikipedia.org,
subject_uri=http://bar/foo.txt
Then when the download finishes:
interp.=DOWNLOAD_EVENT, origin=http://bar/foo.txt,
subject_uri=file:///tmp/foo.txt
This makes it a bit harder for apps to fibure out the website you had
open when the download link was clicked, but it can be done rigorously
with some clever templating in FindEventIds(). In words:
Select 1 VISIT_EVENT event ordered by recency that has timestamp
before download_event.timestamp, that has
subject_uri=download_event.origin
Anyway - just think out loud. There may be more elegant ways to do this.
--
What value should subject.origin have?
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/487321
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Status in Zeitgeist Framework: Triaged
Bug description:
>> + origin =
>> info.get_uri().rpartition("/")[0]
WHY?
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Re: [Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
2009/12/8 Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen :
> So you don't consider the actual URL that I download part of the event?
No. If the user just downloaded a file, he will want to work with the
local version, not download it again. Knowing where the file came from
is also important (in case you want to give someone else the link or
you already removed the local file) so it's metadata worth keeping,
and we have a great metadata store called Tracker where we can put
that (and I think I read somewhere that Tracker/NEPOMUK/whatever
already planned to do that).
--
Siegfried-Angel Gevatter Pujals (RainCT)
Free Software Developer 363DEAE3
--
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Bug description:
>> + origin =
>> info.get_uri().rpartition("/")[0]
WHY?
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[Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
>> there are three interesting URIs to log:
>>
>> - The URL my brower window points to
>
> That's what I consider as "origin", and why I'm asking for other stuff
> to use a different name (be it "domain" or whatever else).
Ok. Let's skip the finer details of the naming as long as we agree on
the basic concepts :-)
>> - The URL of the file I download
>
>I think this is something Tracker is supposed to store.
So you don't consider the actual URL that I download part of the event?
Imho that's more relevant to the event than the location of my browser
window. But honestly I think both are quite relevant!
>> - The local file:// URL that I save the file under
> aka "uri"
- as I said in the line following that :-)
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>> + origin =
>> info.get_uri().rpartition("/")[0]
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[Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
> There is no need for event origin. If u want the origin of an event u look
> for the subject of the event before
The client has no rigorous way to find out which event came "before". We
can apply heuristics, but I don't like that
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>> + origin =
>> info.get_uri().rpartition("/")[0]
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Re: [Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
2009/12/8 Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen :
> If we take an example where I donwload the file from the above URL,
> there are three interesting URIs to log:
>
> - The URL my brower window points to
That's what I consider as "origin", and why I'm asking for other stuff
to use a different name (be it "domain" or whatever else).
> - The URL of the file I download
I think this is something Tracker is supposed to store.
> - The local file:// URL that I save the file under
aka "uri"
Cheers,
--
Siegfried-Angel Gevatter Pujals (RainCT)
Free Software Developer 363DEAE3
--
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>> info.get_uri().rpartition("/")[0]
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Re: [Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
2009/12/8 Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen
> Siegfried, I think you need to elaborate a bit in order to make that
> comment useful...
>
> "Domain" seems to imply that it is the place where the subject is
> currently located. It also strikes me as a very vague and possibly
> ambiguous word here. Fx. the "domain" of an RDF property is the range
> in which it can take values (fx. the domian of the relation foo:hasTag
> is foo:TagObject).
>
> Seif in comment #4 you mean "http://youtube.com/aflkasflkasjf ==>
> http://youtube.com"; and not "...==> aflkasflkasjf", right?
>
sorry my bad
> The example is a bit too simple though. What about
> http://example.com/files/kamstrup/my.txt?encoding=utf-8&token=hd8763hf82
> ? I'd say that it should map to http://example.com/files/kamstrup/.
>
nope it will be example.com
If we take an example where I donwload the file from the above URL,
> there are three interesting URIs to log:
>
> - The URL my brower window points to
> - The URL of the file I download
> - The local file:// URL that I save the file under
>
> Unfortunately our current datamodel can not contain all this information
> inside one event. We only have subject.uri and subject.origin. It would
> appear that we also need an event.origin..?
There is no need for event origin. If u want the origin of an event u look
for the subject of the event before at least that is what i think. I
just woke up so i need to think about it more
> --
> What value should subject.origin have?
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/487321
> You received this bug notification because you are subscribed to The
> Zeitgeist Project.
>
> Status in Zeitgeist Framework: Triaged
>
> Bug description:
> >> + origin =
> info.get_uri().rpartition("/")[0]
>
> WHY?
>
>
>
>
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>> info.get_uri().rpartition("/")[0]
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[Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
Siegfried, I think you need to elaborate a bit in order to make that
comment useful...
"Domain" seems to imply that it is the place where the subject is
currently located. It also strikes me as a very vague and possibly
ambiguous word here. Fx. the "domain" of an RDF property is the range
in which it can take values (fx. the domian of the relation foo:hasTag
is foo:TagObject).
Seif in comment #4 you mean "http://youtube.com/aflkasflkasjf ==>
http://youtube.com"; and not "...==> aflkasflkasjf", right?
The example is a bit too simple though. What about
http://example.com/files/kamstrup/my.txt?encoding=utf-8&token=hd8763hf82
? I'd say that it should map to http://example.com/files/kamstrup/.
If we take an example where I donwload the file from the above URL,
there are three interesting URIs to log:
- The URL my brower window points to
- The URL of the file I download
- The local file:// URL that I save the file under
Unfortunately our current datamodel can not contain all this information
inside one event. We only have subject.uri and subject.origin. It would
appear that we also need an event.origin..?
--
What value should subject.origin have?
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>> + origin =
>> info.get_uri().rpartition("/")[0]
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Re: [Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
Please rename it to "domain" then.
--
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[Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
I think "Physical location at which the subject resided at the moment of
interaction" is a good formulation. It is still incomplete though. We
need to define whether or not trailing slashes should be included - and
stuff like that. I'd like to keep this bug open until all of this is
thoroughly documented in our API docs.
--
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[Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
Ok lets keep origin at the physical location at which the subject
resided. This can be closed if we just agree.
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[Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
IMHO we should stick to using the origin as the domain of the subject
/path/to/file ==> /path/to
youtube.com/aflkasflkasjf ==> aflkasflkasjf
It will give us the option of knowing which are the most used documents
in a folder or most watched videos on youtube.com
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[Zeitgeist] [Bug 487321] Re: What value should subject.origin have?
** Summary changed:
- Origin
+ What value should subject.origin have?
** Changed in: zeitgeist
Assignee: (unassigned) => Mikkel Kamstrup Erlandsen (kamstrup)
** Changed in: zeitgeist
Importance: Undecided => High
** Changed in: zeitgeist
Status: New => Triaged
--
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