Re: [Zen] Re: Death
*bows* DP, I think this a common fear, with any number of interpretations as to why one feels this way. Perhaps it is not fear of dying that drives this for you. Maybe working with "fear" itself as a core emotion would be helpful. In any event, I came across a couple of books you may want to look through... "Being with Dying: Cultivating Compassion and Fearlessness in the Presence of Death", by Joan Haifax is one source. She uses Buddhist principles when working with death and dying, and the book offers exercises, stories and personal experiences to guide the reader. Another is "The fearless Heart", by Pema Chodron, which centers on the core emotion of fear. Lastly, though not buddhist or zen, per se, in the course of my own education and training in health care, I can suggest reading Elizabeth Kubler Ross' works on the stages of death, and her thoughts on the dying process. Just a thought.. Kristy Dear Kristy, Thank you for the book recommendations. I love Pema Chodren. The first book I read, after my home was destroyed by a tornado, and I'd lost all my posessions and my home was "When Things Fall Apart" and it was very helpful!!! The tornado has slightly lowered my fear of death, as I would always ponder "what will I be thinking when I die". Now I have an answer! The tornado was over my house for about 3 minutes. I was huddled under some exercise equipment, in the basement with my terrififed dogs. One of my dogs, somehow kept walking in circles around me, which seems like it would be impossible due to the presence of the exercise equipment. I wondered how on earth she was doing it and that would have been my last thought. I suffer from anxiety and depression, which I keep in check with meditation and exercise, and yes, also pills. If I start thinking about my own death too much, I can work myself up into anxiety. These sound like great books that maybe will help. Anyway, I am always looking for great books, and I'll be heading over to Amazon to now buy what you have recommended, though, I have several books I need to read first. My next book is going to be Thich Nhat Hahn's "Happiness". Metta, Ari > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are >reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >
Re: [Zen] Re: Death
*bows* DP, I think this a common fear, with any number of interpretations as to why one feels this way. Perhaps it is not fear of dying that drives this for you. Maybe working with "fear" itself as a core emotion would be helpful. In any event, I came across a couple of books you may want to look through... "Being with Dying: Cultivating Compassion and Fearlessness in the Presence of Death", by Joan Haifax is one source. She uses Buddhist principles when working with death and dying, and the book offers exercises, stories and personal experiences to guide the reader. Another is "The fearless Heart", by Pema Chodron, which centers on the core emotion of fear. Lastly, though not buddhist or zen, per se, in the course of my own education and training in health care, I can suggest reading Elizabeth Kubler Ross' works on the stages of death, and her thoughts on the dying process. Just a thought.. Kristy From: DP Subject: [Zen] Re: Death To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, September 6, 2010, 8:18 AM It's the fear of nothingness that gets me. I know, a strange thing to fear, but it seems like I find myself sliding towards nihilism. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane wrote: > > Compassion for people is pretty useful. Compassion for what you imagine their > mental state is seems pretty complicated. > > Thanks, > Chris Austin-Lane > Sent from a cell phone > > On Sep 3, 2010, at 7:44 PM, "roloro1557" wrote: > > > Yes, I agree. > > > > I tend to be sensitive to others though and feel compassion for them :-) > > > > Artie > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: > >> > >> Imagining that fear of death is an uncomfortable problem seems no > >> different from imagining that dying is an uncomfortable problem. > >> > >> It's not something to worry about - some times people are afraid of dying. > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >
Re: [Zen] Re: Death
Should!?! Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Sep 6, 2010, at 10:35 AM, Leonard Blunk wrote: > > > Perhaps you should look at it as not as nothingness but rather as > completeness. Wholeness, so complete that shape cannot contain it. > DR. ORIENT ROHMER > > --- On Mon, 9/6/10, DP wrote: > > From: DP > Subject: [Zen] Re: Death > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, September 6, 2010, 7:18 AM > > It's the fear of nothingness that gets me. I know, a strange thing to fear, > but it seems like I find myself sliding towards nihilism. > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane wrote: > > > > Compassion for people is pretty useful. Compassion for what you imagine > > their mental state is seems pretty complicated. > > > > Thanks, > > Chris Austin-Lane > > Sent from a cell phone > > > > On Sep 3, 2010, at 7:44 PM, "roloro1557" wrote: > > > > > Yes, I agree. > > > > > > I tend to be sensitive to others though and feel compassion for them :-) > > > > > > Artie > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: > > >> > > >> Imagining that fear of death is an uncomfortable problem seems no > > >> different from imagining that dying is an uncomfortable problem. > > >> > > >> It's not something to worry about - some times people are afraid of > > >> dying. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
[Zen] Re: Death
I guess I look at it entirely in material terms, so I have trouble wrapping my head around that. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Leonard Blunk wrote: > >  Perhaps you should look at it as not as nothingness but rather > as completeness. Wholeness, so complete that shape cannot contain it. >                                  DR. ORIENT > ROHMER > > --- On Mon, 9/6/10, DP wrote: > > > From: DP > Subject: [Zen] Re: Death > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, September 6, 2010, 7:18 AM > > >  > > > > It's the fear of nothingness that gets me. I know, a strange thing to fear, > but it seems like I find myself sliding towards nihilism. > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane wrote: > > > > Compassion for people is pretty useful. Compassion for what you imagine > > their mental state is seems pretty complicated. > > > > Thanks, > > Chris Austin-Lane > > Sent from a cell phone > > > > On Sep 3, 2010, at 7:44 PM, "roloro1557" wrote: > > > > > Yes, I agree. > > > > > > I tend to be sensitive to others though and feel compassion for them :-) > > > > > > Artie > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: > > >> > > >> Imagining that fear of death is an uncomfortable problem seems no > > >> different from imagining that dying is an uncomfortable problem. > > >> > > >> It's not something to worry about - some times people are afraid of > > >> dying. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Death
Perhaps you should look at it as not as nothingness but rather as completeness. Wholeness, so complete that shape cannot contain it. DR. ORIENT ROHMER --- On Mon, 9/6/10, DP wrote: From: DP Subject: [Zen] Re: Death To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, September 6, 2010, 7:18 AM It's the fear of nothingness that gets me. I know, a strange thing to fear, but it seems like I find myself sliding towards nihilism. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane wrote: > > Compassion for people is pretty useful. Compassion for what you imagine their > mental state is seems pretty complicated. > > Thanks, > Chris Austin-Lane > Sent from a cell phone > > On Sep 3, 2010, at 7:44 PM, "roloro1557" wrote: > > > Yes, I agree. > > > > I tend to be sensitive to others though and feel compassion for them :-) > > > > Artie > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: > >> > >> Imagining that fear of death is an uncomfortable problem seems no > >> different from imagining that dying is an uncomfortable problem. > >> > >> It's not something to worry about - some times people are afraid of dying. > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >
Re: [Zen] Re: Death
Some thing to pay attention to then, this fear. Watch it coming and going. What we start out as thinking of as negative emotions often have a lot of our life's energy tied up with them. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Sep 6, 2010, at 7:18 AM, "DP" wrote: > It's the fear of nothingness that gets me. I know, a strange thing to fear, > but it seems like I find myself sliding towards nihilism. > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane wrote: >> >> Compassion for people is pretty useful. Compassion for what you imagine >> their mental state is seems pretty complicated. >> >> Thanks, >> Chris Austin-Lane >> Sent from a cell phone >> >> On Sep 3, 2010, at 7:44 PM, "roloro1557" wrote: >> >>> Yes, I agree. >>> >>> I tend to be sensitive to others though and feel compassion for them :-) >>> >>> Artie >>> >>> >>> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Imagining that fear of death is an uncomfortable problem seems no different from imagining that dying is an uncomfortable problem. It's not something to worry about - some times people are afraid of dying. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are >>> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Death
It's the fear of nothingness that gets me. I know, a strange thing to fear, but it seems like I find myself sliding towards nihilism. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, ChrisAustinLane wrote: > > Compassion for people is pretty useful. Compassion for what you imagine > their mental state is seems pretty complicated. > > Thanks, > Chris Austin-Lane > Sent from a cell phone > > On Sep 3, 2010, at 7:44 PM, "roloro1557" wrote: > > > Yes, I agree. > > > > I tend to be sensitive to others though and feel compassion for them :-) > > > > Artie > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: > >> > >> Imagining that fear of death is an uncomfortable problem seems no > >> different from imagining that dying is an uncomfortable problem. > >> > >> It's not something to worry about - some times people are afraid of dying. > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Death
Compassion for people is pretty useful. Compassion for what you imagine their mental state is seems pretty complicated. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Sep 3, 2010, at 7:44 PM, "roloro1557" wrote: > Yes, I agree. > > I tend to be sensitive to others though and feel compassion for them :-) > > Artie > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: >> >> Imagining that fear of death is an uncomfortable problem seems no >> different from imagining that dying is an uncomfortable problem. >> >> It's not something to worry about - some times people are afraid of dying. >> > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Death
Yes, I agree. I tend to be sensitive to others though and feel compassion for them :-) Artie --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: > > Imagining that fear of death is an uncomfortable problem seems no > different from imagining that dying is an uncomfortable problem. > > It's not something to worry about - some times people are afraid of dying. > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Death
Imagining that fear of death is an uncomfortable problem seems no different from imagining that dying is an uncomfortable problem. It's not something to worry about - some times people are afraid of dying. On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 4:51 PM, roloro1557 wrote: > Everyone is afraid of death, and that is as it should be, at least as far as > nature is concerned. Self preservation and the continuation of the species, > as it were. You are afraid to die so you don't walk out in front of a tanker > truck or walk off a cliff. Hopefully this allows you to continue living and > to reproduce, and eventually bounce your grandchildren on your knee :-) > > On the other hand, being afraid of death when there is no immanent reason > (like a tanker truck bearing down on you) is quite an uncomfortable problem I > imagine. > > You are going to die. So am I. So is everyone. There is absolutely nothing to > be done about it, it is a fact, a part of reality. (I do not mean to be > callous or insensitive. I am talking facts here.) My own choice is to live, > really live while I'm alive, not to dwell on death. I would rather put my > energy into living. My dying will no doubt come when it comes and take care > of itself. > > Artie > > > > > > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Death
Everyone is afraid of death, and that is as it should be, at least as far as nature is concerned. Self preservation and the continuation of the species, as it were. You are afraid to die so you don't walk out in front of a tanker truck or walk off a cliff. Hopefully this allows you to continue living and to reproduce, and eventually bounce your grandchildren on your knee :-) On the other hand, being afraid of death when there is no immanent reason (like a tanker truck bearing down on you) is quite an uncomfortable problem I imagine. You are going to die. So am I. So is everyone. There is absolutely nothing to be done about it, it is a fact, a part of reality. (I do not mean to be callous or insensitive. I am talking facts here.) My own choice is to live, really live while I'm alive, not to dwell on death. I would rather put my energy into living. My dying will no doubt come when it comes and take care of itself. Artie Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Death
Perhaps to be afraid of death is not a problem. Perhaps you can investigate what this fear of death is in your psyche and life? Do not be afraid of death, all religions say this, but you don't have to get upset just because your mind is doing something like fearing death says zazen. --Chris On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 3:06 AM, wrote: > > > DP, > > > > Rest assured that none of us have ‘figured it out’. I believe that is so > because there is really nothing to ‘figure out’. This is saying the same > thing as Zen Master Seung Shan’s (a contemporary zen master living in Rhode > Island) ‘Don’t Know’ mind teachings. > > > > There are many, many things in this universe that we just can’t ‘know’. > That’s either because we don’t have the capacity to know them, or they are > not rational so are indeed ‘unknowable’. This is okay. We don’t have to > know everything to be happy. We just need to accept the ‘Don’t Know’ mind > and go forward with it. It will not lead you astray. > > > > I do think K’s (salik888) suggestion below concerning Albert Ellis is worth > checking out. I don’t know anything about him, but it might be helpful. > Just use your own judgment, trust your own judgment, on whether or not his > teachings or therapies feel ‘right’ to you. This is your ‘Don’t Know’ > mind. It won’t lead you astray. > > > > …Bill! > > > > *From:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *DP > *Sent:* Monday, August 30, 2010 9:51 PM > *To:* Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* [Zen] Re: Death > > > > > > > Namaste, and thank you. > > I will think long and hard about your words (I've been doing zazen for > awhile now, but not without difficulty). > > I do find some of the comments (and I apologize to anyone here) a little > condescending, like "you haven't figured that out yet?" On another site, I > just got cryptic comments like "fear of death is fear of life," which didn't > really help at all. > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com , "salik888" > wrote: > > > > Peace > > > > I think there are two things you can do. And I want to take this time to > tell you not to become discouraged by posters that offer obvious solutions > and realizations that are supposedy inherent to their way of living and > thinking. I can tell that it is not useful. You are not going to be able to > think yourself out of this one though. > > > > > > Here is what I have found. Anyone who is telling you that they are not > afraid of death, you have to assume that they are lying -- lying to > themselves and others. Even if they are wandering around not thinking about > it, they are avoiding thinking about about it, or sensing it. > > > > In your case, you have expressed a compulsive disorder with death. I > would do the following. > > > > Bill Smart and others here can reaffirm of give you explanation of Zazen, > to bring Shikan Taza into your life. I would begin a good practice of Zazen > and stick to it. Put great emphasis (still thinking, thus fearing) observing > your thoughts, non grasping, just letting them go. You can do this with your > Zazen. > > > > Having said that, the practical matter of things is that you have to walk > around in your life and deal with this throughout your day. I would expose > yourself to the work of Albert Ellis, the cognitive psychologist who started > REBT Therapy. There has been some analysis written on his work and Zen, > since he is basically a sort of ego as function sort of Philosopher. He > doesn't believe in enlightenment that I know of, but what he does offer is > thinking as function and the refuting of obsessional thinking. These two > together may be helpful. I have seen Albert Ellis's Therapy help many > people. It is very practical and very useful. > > > > Of course I always recommend reading only within of context of learning, > the whole idea of Sufis "learning how to learn, knowing how to know, etc . . > ." > > > > To the Sufi way of thinking, fear of death operates out of the lower > self, the commanding self, that has been conditioned and enhanced by culture > and the false self (ego). Operating out of the realm can be useful if your > intention is to transcend it, in fact, the fear of death can be more of > blessing than someone who mindlessly goes around says, "well when I'm dead I > won't know it." Oftentimes they are just ameliorating themselves with their > own mind candy. > > > > Keep this in mind, all human beings fear death in some proportion, you > are just tuning into it. However, it
[Zen] Re: Death
Dave, Furthermore... ;-) Is there any way in which the time after death is different from the time before being born? (experientially, that is, because that's all that will matter to you as a some-time ["has-been"] sentient being). There may be a twinge at the moment of death, but "after" that, will the everlasting state of death feel any different from the 13.8 billion years's time before you were born? I don't know if you can answer this, but THERE'S a "meditation" for you, if you care to try it on for size and style. See what comes of it? --Joe, del desierto / Tennen --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "DP" wrote: > > ARe there any good meditations I can do... [snip] Nope, all bad meditations. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Death
Right, find a teacher and a sangha. Don't rely on yourself, nor on random writings. Keep it Live, not Memorex. Really exert yourself to find a teacher and a practice situation, and do not delay. Zen practice is not letters on a screen, nor in a printed book. It is physical work. You'll see, Best, --Joe / Tucson Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Zen] Re: Death
DP, Rest assured that none of us have 'figured it out'. I believe that is so because there is really nothing to 'figure out'. This is saying the same thing as Zen Master Seung Shan's (a contemporary zen master living in Rhode Island) 'Don't Know' mind teachings. There are many, many things in this universe that we just can't 'know'. That's either because we don't have the capacity to know them, or they are not rational so are indeed 'unknowable'. This is okay. We don't have to know everything to be happy. We just need to accept the 'Don't Know' mind and go forward with it. It will not lead you astray. I do think K's (salik888) suggestion below concerning Albert Ellis is worth checking out. I don't know anything about him, but it might be helpful. Just use your own judgment, trust your own judgment, on whether or not his teachings or therapies feel 'right' to you. This is your 'Don't Know' mind. It won't lead you astray. .Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DP Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 9:51 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Death Namaste, and thank you. I will think long and hard about your words (I've been doing zazen for awhile now, but not without difficulty). I do find some of the comments (and I apologize to anyone here) a little condescending, like "you haven't figured that out yet?" On another site, I just got cryptic comments like "fear of death is fear of life," which didn't really help at all. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> , "salik888" wrote: > > Peace > > I think there are two things you can do. And I want to take this time to tell you not to become discouraged by posters that offer obvious solutions and realizations that are supposedy inherent to their way of living and thinking. I can tell that it is not useful. You are not going to be able to think yourself out of this one though. > > > Here is what I have found. Anyone who is telling you that they are not afraid of death, you have to assume that they are lying -- lying to themselves and others. Even if they are wandering around not thinking about it, they are avoiding thinking about about it, or sensing it. > > In your case, you have expressed a compulsive disorder with death. I would do the following. > > Bill Smart and others here can reaffirm of give you explanation of Zazen, to bring Shikan Taza into your life. I would begin a good practice of Zazen and stick to it. Put great emphasis (still thinking, thus fearing) observing your thoughts, non grasping, just letting them go. You can do this with your Zazen. > > Having said that, the practical matter of things is that you have to walk around in your life and deal with this throughout your day. I would expose yourself to the work of Albert Ellis, the cognitive psychologist who started REBT Therapy. There has been some analysis written on his work and Zen, since he is basically a sort of ego as function sort of Philosopher. He doesn't believe in enlightenment that I know of, but what he does offer is thinking as function and the refuting of obsessional thinking. These two together may be helpful. I have seen Albert Ellis's Therapy help many people. It is very practical and very useful. > > Of course I always recommend reading only within of context of learning, the whole idea of Sufis "learning how to learn, knowing how to know, etc . . ." > > To the Sufi way of thinking, fear of death operates out of the lower self, the commanding self, that has been conditioned and enhanced by culture and the false self (ego). Operating out of the realm can be useful if your intention is to transcend it, in fact, the fear of death can be more of blessing than someone who mindlessly goes around says, "well when I'm dead I won't know it." Oftentimes they are just ameliorating themselves with their own mind candy. > > Keep this in mind, all human beings fear death in some proportion, you are just tuning into it. However, it is possible to use this on the so called path. > > Sometimes with people Yahoo Groups of the so called religious nature you get posters who are really just posting for themselves, transmitting and projecting something they want to feel or sense, and want others to feed back to them. So, don't pay much attention to them. > > Having said that, it really is about Zazen, and feeling a certain intention and gratitude toward working with your obsession, for it can help you in the end. No pun intended . . . > > K among the deathers > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com&
RE: [Zen] Re: Death
DP, Rest assured that none of us have 'figured it out'. I believe that is so because there is really nothing to 'figure out'. This is saying the same thing as Zen Master Seung Shan's (a contemporary zen master living in Rhode Island) 'Don't Know' mind teachings. There are many, many things in this universe that we just can't 'know'. That's either because we don't have the capacity to know them, or they are not rational so are indeed 'unknowable'. This is okay. We don't have to know everything to be happy. We just need to accept the 'Don't Know' mind and go forward with it. It will not lead you astray. I do think K's (salik888) suggestion below concerning Albert Ellis is worth checking out. I don't know anything about him, but it might be helpful. Just use your own judgment, trust your own judgment, on whether or not his teachings or therapies feel 'right' to you. This is your 'Don't Know' mind. It won't lead you astray. .Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DP Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 9:51 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Death Namaste, and thank you. I will think long and hard about your words (I've been doing zazen for awhile now, but not without difficulty). I do find some of the comments (and I apologize to anyone here) a little condescending, like "you haven't figured that out yet?" On another site, I just got cryptic comments like "fear of death is fear of life," which didn't really help at all. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> , "salik888" wrote: > > Peace > > I think there are two things you can do. And I want to take this time to tell you not to become discouraged by posters that offer obvious solutions and realizations that are supposedy inherent to their way of living and thinking. I can tell that it is not useful. You are not going to be able to think yourself out of this one though. > > > Here is what I have found. Anyone who is telling you that they are not afraid of death, you have to assume that they are lying -- lying to themselves and others. Even if they are wandering around not thinking about it, they are avoiding thinking about about it, or sensing it. > > In your case, you have expressed a compulsive disorder with death. I would do the following. > > Bill Smart and others here can reaffirm of give you explanation of Zazen, to bring Shikan Taza into your life. I would begin a good practice of Zazen and stick to it. Put great emphasis (still thinking, thus fearing) observing your thoughts, non grasping, just letting them go. You can do this with your Zazen. > > Having said that, the practical matter of things is that you have to walk around in your life and deal with this throughout your day. I would expose yourself to the work of Albert Ellis, the cognitive psychologist who started REBT Therapy. There has been some analysis written on his work and Zen, since he is basically a sort of ego as function sort of Philosopher. He doesn't believe in enlightenment that I know of, but what he does offer is thinking as function and the refuting of obsessional thinking. These two together may be helpful. I have seen Albert Ellis's Therapy help many people. It is very practical and very useful. > > Of course I always recommend reading only within of context of learning, the whole idea of Sufis "learning how to learn, knowing how to know, etc . . ." > > To the Sufi way of thinking, fear of death operates out of the lower self, the commanding self, that has been conditioned and enhanced by culture and the false self (ego). Operating out of the realm can be useful if your intention is to transcend it, in fact, the fear of death can be more of blessing than someone who mindlessly goes around says, "well when I'm dead I won't know it." Oftentimes they are just ameliorating themselves with their own mind candy. > > Keep this in mind, all human beings fear death in some proportion, you are just tuning into it. However, it is possible to use this on the so called path. > > Sometimes with people Yahoo Groups of the so called religious nature you get posters who are really just posting for themselves, transmitting and projecting something they want to feel or sense, and want others to feed back to them. So, don't pay much attention to them. > > Having said that, it really is about Zazen, and feeling a certain intention and gratitude toward working with your obsession, for it can help you in the end. No pun intended . . . > > K among the deathers > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com&
[Zen] Re: Death
Dave, (just chiming-in now after some years ignoring these fora). Well, no, there are not. > ARe there any good meditations I can do which helps me deal with my fear of > death? I think that meditations with a "theme" are not zen meditation. But you could try such a thing as a therapeutic device, I suppose. The Tibetans are good in having developed such practices. But the program and progress of their meditation curriculum is not the same as that of Zen practice. And some Vipassana practices are available that address this. ...as well as original Buddhist practices recommended by the Buddha and recorded in several sutras (give a good reading around...). But... successful zen meditation will bring you to a point of awakening, when and where you will "notice" (!) that all fears and puzzlements and other and all mental activity DROP AWAY, and cannot be re-started for weeks or months. You will then have regained your full human inheritance (like it or not...) -- like the rest of us -- and will be free of corrosive sicknesses and worries perpetrated by the "culture". What you think is the your "mind" is really the invalid (sick... ill... ) activity of something else. It is not the mind of the sentient being nor the mind of the buddha. Thus, we have to practice, to become natural, and to become well. You cannot do that on your own! Unless you are one in ten million. And, sorry, but I doubt you are. The odds are against it, I mean. Awakening is a point of departure in zen practice, and it is a *beginning*, not an end! Thirty years afterward, you can talk sense about it, maybe. I'm not a radical, just a zen practitioner with the utmost faith in our teachers's teachings and compassion, and have been blessed to be a part of a strong sangha and a strong teacher's guidance. I hope you have a sangha and a teacher to practice with. If not, go about finding same. It's the best thing to do. We can work on our own, but not very well, because all the advice is half-baked, and, with *YOU* as the only judge as to how things are going, well... you're SUNK. Just ***forgettabout*** it. My advice is to find the real dharma now by finding a teacher. And don't delay. Life is too short. Never mind about death... . It's life that counts. Don't delay, Dave! --Joe / Tucson, AZ / USA --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "DP" wrote: > > ARe there any good meditations I can do which helps me deal with my fear of > death? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Death
DP: I also sense that fear of death is also fear of life. I suppose that when one lives in the present moment, which I can assure you is pretty difficult to do, A lot of the fears seem to lessen more and more. On the other way round, when I forget to be fully present in my body and mind in the present moment is when all my troubles start all over again. I know that my fear of death is related very much so to my fear of life. Only by living in the present moment I can embrace what it comes and as it comes. Mayka --- On Mon, 30/8/10, DP wrote: From: DP Subject: [Zen] Re: Death To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, 30 August, 2010, 15:50 Namaste, and thank you. I will think long and hard about your words (I've been doing zazen for awhile now, but not without difficulty). I do find some of the comments (and I apologize to anyone here) a little condescending, like "you haven't figured that out yet?" On another site, I just got cryptic comments like "fear of death is fear of life," which didn't really help at all. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "salik888" wrote: > > Peace > > I think there are two things you can do. And I want to take this time to tell > you not to become discouraged by posters that offer obvious solutions and > realizations that are supposedy inherent to their way of living and thinking. > I can tell that it is not useful. You are not going to be able to think > yourself out of this one though. > > > Here is what I have found. Anyone who is telling you that they are not afraid > of death, you have to assume that they are lying -- lying to themselves and > others. Even if they are wandering around not thinking about it, they are > avoiding thinking about about it, or sensing it. > > In your case, you have expressed a compulsive disorder with death. I would do > the following. > > Bill Smart and others here can reaffirm of give you explanation of Zazen, to > bring Shikan Taza into your life. I would begin a good practice of Zazen and > stick to it. Put great emphasis (still thinking, thus fearing) observing your > thoughts, non grasping, just letting them go. You can do this with your Zazen. > > Having said that, the practical matter of things is that you have to walk > around in your life and deal with this throughout your day. I would expose > yourself to the work of Albert Ellis, the cognitive psychologist who started > REBT Therapy. There has been some analysis written on his work and Zen, since > he is basically a sort of ego as function sort of Philosopher. He doesn't > believe in enlightenment that I know of, but what he does offer is thinking > as function and the refuting of obsessional thinking. These two together may > be helpful. I have seen Albert Ellis's Therapy help many people. It is very > practical and very useful. > > Of course I always recommend reading only within of context of learning, the > whole idea of Sufis "learning how to learn, knowing how to know, etc . . ." > > To the Sufi way of thinking, fear of death operates out of the lower self, > the commanding self, that has been conditioned and enhanced by culture and > the false self (ego). Operating out of the realm can be useful if your > intention is to transcend it, in fact, the fear of death can be more of > blessing than someone who mindlessly goes around says, "well when I'm dead I > won't know it." Oftentimes they are just ameliorating themselves with their > own mind candy. > > Keep this in mind, all human beings fear death in some proportion, you are > just tuning into it. However, it is possible to use this on the so called > path. > > Sometimes with people Yahoo Groups of the so called religious nature you get > posters who are really just posting for themselves, transmitting and > projecting something they want to feel or sense, and want others to feed back > to them. So, don't pay much attention to them. > > Having said that, it really is about Zazen, and feeling a certain intention > and gratitude toward working with your obsession, for it can help you in the > end. No pun intended . . . > > K among the deathers > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "DP" wrote: > > > > ARe there any good meditations I can do which helps me deal with my fear of > > death? I just finished Thich Nhat Hanh's No Death No Fear, and I liked it, > > but I feel such a hard time getting around the idea of continuance - it's > > too much for my materialist mind. So maybe I need a different tack... > > > > How do I confront the reality of death with the aim towards lessening my > > fear of this? > > >
Re: [Zen] Re: Death
Thank you for posting such an insightful respone on this topic.. Rose --- On Mon, 8/30/10, salik888 wrote: From: salik888 Subject: [Zen] Re: Death To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 2:09 PM Peace I think there are two things you can do. And I want to take this time to tell you not to become discouraged by posters that offer obvious solutions and realizations that are supposedy inherent to their way of living and thinking. I can tell that it is not useful. You are not going to be able to think yourself out of this one though. Here is what I have found. Anyone who is telling you that they are not afraid of death, you have to assume that they are lying -- lying to themselves and others. Even if they are wandering around not thinking about it, they are avoiding thinking about about it, or sensing it. In your case, you have expressed a compulsive disorder with death. I would do the following. Bill Smart and others here can reaffirm of give you explanation of Zazen, to bring Shikan Taza into your life. I would begin a good practice of Zazen and stick to it. Put great emphasis (still thinking, thus fearing) observing your thoughts, non grasping, just letting them go. You can do this with your Zazen. Having said that, the practical matter of things is that you have to walk around in your life and deal with this throughout your day. I would expose yourself to the work of Albert Ellis, the cognitive psychologist who started REBT Therapy. There has been some analysis written on his work and Zen, since he is basically a sort of ego as function sort of Philosopher. He doesn't believe in enlightenment that I know of, but what he does offer is thinking as function and the refuting of obsessional thinking. These two together may be helpful. I have seen Albert Ellis's Therapy help many people. It is very practical and very useful. Of course I always recommend reading only within of context of learning, the whole idea of Sufis "learning how to learn, knowing how to know, etc . . ." To the Sufi way of thinking, fear of death operates out of the lower self, the commanding self, that has been conditioned and enhanced by culture and the false self (ego). Operating out of the realm can be useful if your intention is to transcend it, in fact, the fear of death can be more of blessing than someone who mindlessly goes around says, "well when I'm dead I won't know it." Oftentimes they are just ameliorating themselves with their own mind candy. Keep this in mind, all human beings fear death in some proportion, you are just tuning into it. However, it is possible to use this on the so called path. Sometimes with people Yahoo Groups of the so called religious nature you get posters who are really just posting for themselves, transmitting and projecting something they want to feel or sense, and want others to feed back to them. So, don't pay much attention to them. Having said that, it really is about Zazen, and feeling a certain intention and gratitude toward working with your obsession, for it can help you in the end. No pun intended . . . K among the deathers --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "DP" wrote: > > ARe there any good meditations I can do which helps me deal with my fear of > death? I just finished Thich Nhat Hanh's No Death No Fear, and I liked it, > but I feel such a hard time getting around the idea of continuance - it's too > much for my materialist mind. So maybe I need a different tack... > > How do I confront the reality of death with the aim towards lessening my fear > of this? >
[Zen] Re: Death
Namaste, and thank you. I will think long and hard about your words (I've been doing zazen for awhile now, but not without difficulty). I do find some of the comments (and I apologize to anyone here) a little condescending, like "you haven't figured that out yet?" On another site, I just got cryptic comments like "fear of death is fear of life," which didn't really help at all. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "salik888" wrote: > > Peace > > I think there are two things you can do. And I want to take this time to > tell you not to become discouraged by posters that offer obvious solutions > and realizations that are supposedy inherent to their way of living and > thinking. I can tell that it is not useful. You are not going to be able to > think yourself out of this one though. > > > Here is what I have found. Anyone who is telling you that they are not > afraid of death, you have to assume that they are lying -- lying to > themselves and others. Even if they are wandering around not thinking about > it, they are avoiding thinking about about it, or sensing it. > > In your case, you have expressed a compulsive disorder with death. I would > do the following. > > Bill Smart and others here can reaffirm of give you explanation of Zazen, to > bring Shikan Taza into your life. I would begin a good practice of Zazen and > stick to it. Put great emphasis (still thinking, thus fearing) observing > your thoughts, non grasping, just letting them go. You can do this with your > Zazen. > > Having said that, the practical matter of things is that you have to walk > around in your life and deal with this throughout your day. I would expose > yourself to the work of Albert Ellis, the cognitive psychologist who started > REBT Therapy. There has been some analysis written on his work and Zen, > since he is basically a sort of ego as function sort of Philosopher. He > doesn't believe in enlightenment that I know of, but what he does offer is > thinking as function and the refuting of obsessional thinking. These two > together may be helpful. I have seen Albert Ellis's Therapy help many > people. It is very practical and very useful. > > Of course I always recommend reading only within of context of learning, the > whole idea of Sufis "learning how to learn, knowing how to know, etc . . ." > > To the Sufi way of thinking, fear of death operates out of the lower self, > the commanding self, that has been conditioned and enhanced by culture and > the false self (ego). Operating out of the realm can be useful if your > intention is to transcend it, in fact, the fear of death can be more of > blessing than someone who mindlessly goes around says, "well when I'm dead I > won't know it." Oftentimes they are just ameliorating themselves with their > own mind candy. > > Keep this in mind, all human beings fear death in some proportion, you are > just tuning into it. However, it is possible to use this on the so called > path. > > Sometimes with people Yahoo Groups of the so called religious nature you get > posters who are really just posting for themselves, transmitting and > projecting something they want to feel or sense, and want others to feed back > to them. So, don't pay much attention to them. > > Having said that, it really is about Zazen, and feeling a certain intention > and gratitude toward working with your obsession, for it can help you in the > end. No pun intended . . . > > K among the deathers > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "DP" wrote: > > > > ARe there any good meditations I can do which helps me deal with my fear of > > death? I just finished Thich Nhat Hanh's No Death No Fear, and I liked it, > > but I feel such a hard time getting around the idea of continuance - it's > > too much for my materialist mind. So maybe I need a different tack... > > > > How do I confront the reality of death with the aim towards lessening my > > fear of this? > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Death
Peace I think there are two things you can do. And I want to take this time to tell you not to become discouraged by posters that offer obvious solutions and realizations that are supposedy inherent to their way of living and thinking. I can tell that it is not useful. You are not going to be able to think yourself out of this one though. Here is what I have found. Anyone who is telling you that they are not afraid of death, you have to assume that they are lying -- lying to themselves and others. Even if they are wandering around not thinking about it, they are avoiding thinking about about it, or sensing it. In your case, you have expressed a compulsive disorder with death. I would do the following. Bill Smart and others here can reaffirm of give you explanation of Zazen, to bring Shikan Taza into your life. I would begin a good practice of Zazen and stick to it. Put great emphasis (still thinking, thus fearing) observing your thoughts, non grasping, just letting them go. You can do this with your Zazen. Having said that, the practical matter of things is that you have to walk around in your life and deal with this throughout your day. I would expose yourself to the work of Albert Ellis, the cognitive psychologist who started REBT Therapy. There has been some analysis written on his work and Zen, since he is basically a sort of ego as function sort of Philosopher. He doesn't believe in enlightenment that I know of, but what he does offer is thinking as function and the refuting of obsessional thinking. These two together may be helpful. I have seen Albert Ellis's Therapy help many people. It is very practical and very useful. Of course I always recommend reading only within of context of learning, the whole idea of Sufis "learning how to learn, knowing how to know, etc . . ." To the Sufi way of thinking, fear of death operates out of the lower self, the commanding self, that has been conditioned and enhanced by culture and the false self (ego). Operating out of the realm can be useful if your intention is to transcend it, in fact, the fear of death can be more of blessing than someone who mindlessly goes around says, "well when I'm dead I won't know it." Oftentimes they are just ameliorating themselves with their own mind candy. Keep this in mind, all human beings fear death in some proportion, you are just tuning into it. However, it is possible to use this on the so called path. Sometimes with people Yahoo Groups of the so called religious nature you get posters who are really just posting for themselves, transmitting and projecting something they want to feel or sense, and want others to feed back to them. So, don't pay much attention to them. Having said that, it really is about Zazen, and feeling a certain intention and gratitude toward working with your obsession, for it can help you in the end. No pun intended . . . K among the deathers --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "DP" wrote: > > ARe there any good meditations I can do which helps me deal with my fear of > death? I just finished Thich Nhat Hanh's No Death No Fear, and I liked it, > but I feel such a hard time getting around the idea of continuance - it's too > much for my materialist mind. So maybe I need a different tack... > > How do I confront the reality of death with the aim towards lessening my fear > of this? > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
