subject:"RE\: \[Zen\] Re\: the human body"

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-27 Thread Merle Lester



 
 who said god was a preconceived idea? merle

  
Totally fair to say. How can anyone 'free' his mind if he hangs onto 
preconceived ideas?


On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:44 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

 
  
Larry,

I think it's fair to say that Buddhism respects the gods people may choose to 
believe in, but it remains a central tenet of Buddhism that liberation and 
freedom are not found thru a belief in a god.

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From: larry maher lcmahe...@gmail.com; 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent: Mon, Aug 26, 2013 11:08:10 PM 


  
I hate to quote the master but the Buddha said 'since there is no way to prove 
the existence of God or nor disprove, believe whatever makes it easier for 
you.'... What good does it do for a rock to call another rock 'hard?' 
L



On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 5:53 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

 
  
Thing is tho, a belief in a deity *is* the norm. And is also 'painting legs 
on a snake' because it just isn't needed. Also, not sure how believing in a 
god is fun. Each to their own, I suppose.

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent: Mon, Aug 26, 2013 8:57:54 AM 


  


 because i can and it's fun!..i do not follow the norm mike..do 
you?..merle


  
Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how 
most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a belief. 
Why paint legs on a snake?

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 

  


 rubbish...you missed the point then .
the forest is god..the forest and the people are one..
.god, forest and people are all in harmony..it's called life... 
god is life... 
what the hell did you think god was?...
 merle..not the old man with a long white beard syndrome? or some other 
equally absurd notion?


  
Watched it. Yep, no god.


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 3:46:28 AM 


  


 mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian tribe 
doc..then tell me there is no god...merle
  
Merle,

Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. 

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM 


  


 mike..explain yourself please..
and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks 
that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle
  
And comfort is only sought when dis-eased.  

KG

On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

  
Merle,

Utility is no measure of Truth.

Mike

 

 

 

 

 



-- 
Larry Maher  


-- 
Larry Maher

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-27 Thread Merle Lester



good one..merle


  
I hate to quote the master but the Buddha said 'since there is no way to prove 
the existence of God or nor disprove, believe whatever makes it easier for 
you.'... What good does it do for a rock to call another rock 'hard?'
L



On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 5:53 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

 
  
Thing is tho, a belief in a deity *is* the norm. And is also 'painting legs on 
a snake' because it just isn't needed. Also, not sure how believing in a god 
is fun. Each to their own, I suppose.

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From:  Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; 
To:  Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject:  Re: [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent:  Mon, Aug 26, 2013 8:57:54 AM 


  


 because i can and it's fun!..i do not follow the norm mike..do 
you?..merle


  
Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how 
most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a belief. 
Why paint legs on a snake?

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 

  


 rubbish...you missed the point then .
the forest is god..the forest and the people are one..
.god, forest and people are all in harmony..it's called life... 
god is life... 
what the hell did you think god was?...
 merle..not the old man with a long white beard syndrome? or some other 
equally absurd notion?


  
Watched it. Yep, no god.


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From:  Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; 
To:  Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject:  Re: [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent:  Sun, Aug 25, 2013 3:46:28 AM 


  


 mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian tribe 
doc..then tell me there is no god...merle
  
Merle,

Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. 

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From:  Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; 
To:  Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject:  Re: [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent:  Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM 


  


 mike..explain yourself please..
and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks 
that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle
  
And comfort is only sought when dis-eased.  

KG

On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

  
Merle,

Utility is no measure of Truth.

Mike

 

 

 

 

 


-- 
Larry Maher

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-27 Thread larry maher

Not saying God is precon-ed or not precon-ed to any human being; but but
but a lot of us are products of our culture, read and accepted beliefs, and
probably some hard-wired DNA. Those combinations lead to ideas, icons,
slogans etc. All those are blockages to God if you truly want to find him.
I know little but I do know one thing spirituality is not what we THINK it
is!

On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 4:16 AM, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.comwrote:

 **




  who said god was a preconceived idea? merle


 Totally fair to say. How can anyone 'free' his mind if he hangs onto
 preconceived ideas?

 On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:44 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

 **

Larry,

 I think it's fair to say that Buddhism respects the gods people may choose
 to believe in, but it remains a central tenet of Buddhism that liberation
 and freedom are not found thru a belief in a god.

 Mike


 Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

  --
 *From: *larry maher lcmahe...@gmail.com;
 *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com;
 *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
 *Sent: *Mon, Aug 26, 2013 11:08:10 PM


  I hate to quote the master but the Buddha said 'since there is no way to
 prove the existence of God or nor disprove, believe whatever makes it
 easier for you.'... What good does it do for a rock to call another rock
 'hard?'
 L


 On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 5:53 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

 **

Thing is tho, a belief in a deity *is* the norm. And is also 'painting
 legs on a snake' because it just isn't needed. Also, not sure how believing
 in a god is fun. Each to their own, I suppose.

 Mike


 Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

  --
 *From: *Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com;
 *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com;
 *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
 *Sent: *Mon, Aug 26, 2013 8:57:54 AM



   because i can and it's fun!..i do not follow the norm mike..do
 you?..merle


   Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with
 how most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a
 belief. Why paint legs on a snake?

 Mike


 Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

  --



   rubbish...you missed the point then .
 the forest is god..the forest and the people are one..
 .god, forest and people are all in harmony..it's called life...
 god is life...
 what the hell did you think god was?...
  merle..not the old man with a long white beard syndrome?[image: *:))
 laughing] or some other equally absurd notion?[image: *#-o d'oh!]


   Watched it. Yep, no god.


 Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

  --
 *From: *Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com;
 *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com;
 *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
 *Sent: *Sun, Aug 25, 2013 3:46:28 AM



   mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian
 tribe doc..then tell me there is no god...merle

   Merle,

 Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true.

 Mike


 Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

  --
 *From: *Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com;
 *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com;
 *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
 *Sent: *Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM



   mike..explain yourself please..
 and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives
 thanks that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to
 speak..merle

  And comfort is only sought when dis-eased.

 KG

 On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


   Merle,

 Utility is no measure of Truth.

 Mike












 --
 *Larry Maher*




 --
 *Larry Maher*


  




-- 
*Larry Maher*

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-27 Thread uerusuboyo

Merle,br/br/If you have no concrete, empirical evidence of a creator god 
then it's all just preconceived and presupposed. In other words - made 
up.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-27 Thread Merle Lester



 and pray larry what doeth thee think it is..this spirituality...merle


  
Not saying God is precon-ed or not precon-ed to any human being; but but but a 
lot of us are products of our culture, read and accepted beliefs, and probably 
some hard-wired DNA. Those combinations lead to ideas, icons, slogans etc. All 
those are blockages to God if you truly want to find him. I know little but I 
do know one thing spirituality is not what we THINK it is!


On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 4:16 AM, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com wrote:

 
  


 
 who said god was a preconceived idea? merle


  
Totally fair to say. How can anyone 'free' his mind if he hangs onto 
preconceived ideas?


On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:44 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

 
  
Larry,

I think it's fair to say that Buddhism respects the gods people may choose to 
believe in, but it remains a central tenet of Buddhism that liberation and 
freedom are not found thru a belief in a god.

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From: larry maher lcmahe...@gmail.com; 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent: Mon, Aug 26, 2013 11:08:10 PM 


  
I hate to quote the master but the Buddha said 'since there is no way to 
prove the existence of God or nor disprove, believe whatever makes it easier 
for you.'... What good does it do for a rock to call another rock 'hard?' 
L



On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 5:53 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

 
  
Thing is tho, a belief in a deity *is* the norm. And is also 'painting legs 
on a snake' because it just isn't needed. Also, not sure how believing in a 
god is fun. Each to their own, I suppose.

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent: Mon, Aug 26, 2013 8:57:54 AM 


  


 because i can and it's fun!..i do not follow the norm mike..do 
you?..merle


  
Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how 
most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a 
belief. Why paint legs on a snake?

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 

  


 rubbish...you missed the point then .
the forest is god..the forest and the people are one..
.god, forest and people are all in harmony..it's called life... 
god is life... 
what the hell did you think god was?...
 merle..not the old man with a long white beard syndrome? or some other 
equally absurd notion?


  
Watched it. Yep, no god.


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 3:46:28 AM 


  


 mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian tribe 
doc..then tell me there is no god...merle
  
Merle,

Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. 

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM 


  


 mike..explain yourself please..
and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives 
thanks that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle
  
And comfort is only sought when dis-eased.  

KG

On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

  
Merle,

Utility is no measure of Truth.

Mike

 

 

 

 

 



-- 
Larry Maher  


-- 
Larry Maher 




-- 
Larry Maher

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-27 Thread Kristopher Grey


Freeing the mind is a myth.
What cannot be found, cannot be bound.
The imagined mind, imagines itself otherwise.

KG

On 8/27/2013 1:53 AM, larry maher wrote:


Totally fair to say. How can anyone 'free' his mind if he hangs onto 
preconceived ideas?


On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:44 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk 
mailto:uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


Larry,

I think it's fair to say that Buddhism respects the gods people
may choose to believe in, but it remains a central tenet of
Buddhism that liberation and freedom are not found thru a belief
in a god.

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad



**

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-26 Thread Merle Lester

 what was?...merle
I thought it was a 60s flashback thing..


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From:  Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org; 
To:  Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject:  [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent:  Sun, Aug 25, 2013 9:42:54 AM 


  
Merle,

Did you just have a birthday or something?

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:

 
 
 Â rubbish...you missed the point then .
 the forest is god..the forest and the people are one..
 .god, forest and people are all in harmony..it's called life...Â 
 god is life...Â 
 what the hell did you think god was?...
 Â merle..not the old man with a long white beard syndrome?Â or some other 
 equally absurd notion?
 
 
 Â  
 Watched it. Yep, no god.
 
 
 Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 
 
 
 
 
  From:  Merle Lester merlewiitpom@...; 
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
 Subject:  Re: [Zen] Re: the human body 
 Sent:  Sun, Aug 25, 2013 3:46:28 AM 
 
 
 Â  
 
 
 Â mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian tribe 
 doc..then tell me there is no god...merle
 Â  
 Merle,
 
 Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. 
 
 Mike
 
 
 Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 
 
 
 
 
  From:  Merle Lester merlewiitpom@...; 
 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
 Subject:  Re: [Zen] Re: the human body 
 Sent:  Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM 
 
 
 Â  
 
 
 Â mike..explain yourself please..
 and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks 
 that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle
 Â  
 And comfort is only sought when dis-eased.Â  
 
 KG
 
 On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
 
 Â  
 Merle,
 
 Utility is no measure of Truth.
 
 Mike

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-26 Thread Merle Lester



 because i can and it's fun!..i do not follow the norm mike..do 
you?..merle


  
Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how most 
people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a belief. Why 
paint legs on a snake?

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 

  


 rubbish...you missed the point then .
the forest is god..the forest and the people are one..
.god, forest and people are all in harmony..it's called life... 
god is life... 
what the hell did you think god was?...
 merle..not the old man with a long white beard syndrome? or some other equally 
absurd notion?


  
Watched it. Yep, no god.


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From:  Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; 
To:  Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject:  Re: [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent:  Sun, Aug 25, 2013 3:46:28 AM 


  


 mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian tribe 
doc..then tell me there is no god...merle
  
Merle,

Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. 

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From:  Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; 
To:  Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject:  Re: [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent:  Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM 


  


 mike..explain yourself please..
and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks 
that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle
  
And comfort is only sought when dis-eased.  

KG

On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

  
Merle,

Utility is no measure of Truth.

Mike

RE: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-26 Thread uerusuboyo

Merle,br/br/what the hell did you think god was?...br/br/I'm not 
sure, but does he wear the Welsh number 15 shirt and convert the winning kick 
against England last year?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail 
for iPad

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-26 Thread uerusuboyo

Thing is tho, a belief in a deity *is* the norm. And is also 'painting legs on 
a snake' because it just isn't needed. Also, not sure how believing in a god is 
fun. Each to their own, I suppose.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! 
Mail for iPad

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-26 Thread larry maher

I hate to quote the master but the Buddha said 'since there is no way to
prove the existence of God or nor disprove, believe whatever makes it
easier for you.'... What good does it do for a rock to call another rock
'hard?'
L


On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 5:53 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

 **


 Thing is tho, a belief in a deity *is* the norm. And is also 'painting
 legs on a snake' because it just isn't needed. Also, not sure how believing
 in a god is fun. Each to their own, I suppose.

 Mike


 Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

  --
 * From: * Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com;
 * To: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com;
 * Subject: * Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
 * Sent: * Mon, Aug 26, 2013 8:57:54 AM




  because i can and it's fun!..i do not follow the norm mike..do
 you?..merle


 Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how
 most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a
 belief. Why paint legs on a snake?

 Mike


 Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

  --



  rubbish...you missed the point then .
 the forest is god..the forest and the people are one..
 .god, forest and people are all in harmony..it's called life...
 god is life...
 what the hell did you think god was?...
  merle..not the old man with a long white beard syndrome?[image: *:))
 laughing] or some other equally absurd notion?[image: *#-o d'oh!]


 Watched it. Yep, no god.


 Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

  --
 * From: * Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com;
 * To: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com;
 * Subject: * Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
 * Sent: * Sun, Aug 25, 2013 3:46:28 AM



  mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian
 tribe doc..then tell me there is no god...merle

 Merle,

 Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true.

 Mike


 Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

  --
 * From: * Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com;
 * To: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com;
 * Subject: * Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
 * Sent: * Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM



  mike..explain yourself please..
 and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives
 thanks that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to
 speak..merle

  And comfort is only sought when dis-eased.

 KG

 On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


   Merle,

 Utility is no measure of Truth.

 Mike














-- 
*Larry Maher*

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-26 Thread uerusuboyo

Larry,br/br/I think it's fair to say that Buddhism respects the gods people 
may choose to believe in, but it remains a central tenet of Buddhism that 
liberation and freedom are not found thru a belief in a 
god.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-26 Thread larry maher

Totally fair to say. How can anyone 'free' his mind if he hangs onto
preconceived ideas?

On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:44 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

 **


   Larry,

 I think it's fair to say that Buddhism respects the gods people may choose
 to believe in, but it remains a central tenet of Buddhism that liberation
 and freedom are not found thru a belief in a god.

 Mike


 Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

  --
 *From: *larry maher lcmahe...@gmail.com;
 *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com;
 *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
 *Sent: *Mon, Aug 26, 2013 11:08:10 PM



 I hate to quote the master but the Buddha said 'since there is no way to
 prove the existence of God or nor disprove, believe whatever makes it
 easier for you.'... What good does it do for a rock to call another rock
 'hard?'
 L


 On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 5:53 PM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

 **


   Thing is tho, a belief in a deity *is* the norm. And is also 'painting
 legs on a snake' because it just isn't needed. Also, not sure how believing
 in a god is fun. Each to their own, I suppose.

 Mike


 Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

  --
 *From: *Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com;
 *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com;
 *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
 *Sent: *Mon, Aug 26, 2013 8:57:54 AM




   because i can and it's fun!..i do not follow the norm mike..do
 you?..merle


   Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with
 how most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a
 belief. Why paint legs on a snake?

 Mike


 Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

  --



   rubbish...you missed the point then .
 the forest is god..the forest and the people are one..
 .god, forest and people are all in harmony..it's called life...
 god is life...
 what the hell did you think god was?...
  merle..not the old man with a long white beard syndrome?[image: *:))
 laughing] or some other equally absurd notion?[image: *#-o d'oh!]


   Watched it. Yep, no god.


 Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

  --
 *From: *Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com;
 *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com;
 *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
 *Sent: *Sun, Aug 25, 2013 3:46:28 AM



   mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian
 tribe doc..then tell me there is no god...merle

   Merle,

 Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true.

 Mike


 Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

  --
 *From: *Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com;
 *To: *Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com;
 *Subject: *Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
 *Sent: *Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM



   mike..explain yourself please..
 and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives
 thanks that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to
 speak..merle

  And comfort is only sought when dis-eased.

 KG

 On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


   Merle,

 Utility is no measure of Truth.

 Mike












 --
 *Larry Maher*

  




-- 
*Larry Maher*

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-25 Thread Kristopher Grey


Most people of such delusional persuasion also use 'creation' as a noun.

KG



On 8/25/2013 1:01 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with 
how most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without 
such a belief. Why paint legs on a snake?


Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-25 Thread uerusuboyo

And a 6000 year old one, at that.br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-25 Thread Merle Lester



 yes... but we do it anyway..so let's have fun doing it..merle


  
Merle,

The idea behind self-realisation to to stop the weaving and deconstruct. You 
should know that..

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From:  Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; 
To:  Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject:  Re: [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent:  Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:31:32 AM 


  


 
mike...it is the nature of the beast : human... to construct  weave and 
create.. we do not live by bread alone..you know that...merle
  
Merle

They're both fictional constructs. But at least ego has some relative truth.

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From:  Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; 
To:  Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject:  Re: [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent:  Sat, Aug 24, 2013 6:40:32 AM 


  
mike excuse me...what's soul got to do with ego?..merle
 


  
Bill!,

Would you agree that you probably would never have experienced 'zen' without 
Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the spreading of the sutras? I agree that 
experiencing Buddha Nature is not intrinsically dependent on them, but it may 
as well be. Without Buddha's rediscovering of Buddha Nature we'd probably still 
be believing in souls and the reality of an ego. 

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From:  Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org; 
To:  Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject:  [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent:  Sat, Aug 24, 2013 4:24:25 AM 


  
Merle,

Well, that all depends on what you mean by 'zen'.

I've defined what I mean by zen (lower-case 'z') many, many times on this forum 
and elsewhere.  A short version of that definition is:  a set of teachings and 
techniques that first lead you to directly experience reality (a.k.a. Buddha 
Nature); and then helps you integrate that experience into every facet of your 
daily life.

These techniques (zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc...)do not have to be 
associated with Buddhism.  If they are then that is Zen Buddhism, and in that 
case the teachings are encased in the language of Buddhism.  This is fact is 
how I was introduced to zen, via a Japanese form of Zen Buddhism.

To sum up, I believe zen is not in any way dependent upon Buddhism, Buddhist 
teachings, dogmas, doctrine or practices.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:

 
 
 Â 
 Â from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have 
 buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle
 Â  
 Merle,
 
 Yes.  IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism.
 
 Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, 
 doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc...  All these IMO have nothing 
 directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on 
 covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen.  In the case of most 
 other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a 
 cult.
 
 This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a 
 common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 
 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism.
 
 This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those 
 that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists.
 
 ...Bill!
 
 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
 
  
  
  Ã‚Â hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as 
  zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle
  Ã‚Â  
  Merle,
  
  As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist.
  
  I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I 
  practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions.  What 
  it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions.
  
  ...Bill!
  
  ...Bill!
  
  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
  
   
   
   Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are 
   you?..merle
   Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â  
   Merle,
   
   Yes!  Why me?  Why not someone else?  Someone I don't like?  Someone who 
   doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same 
   language as I do.  Someone ELSE!
   
   ...Bill!
   
   --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
   


ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not 
you?...merle
ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â  
Merle,

I have been in pain before.  When I am in pain I don't think of pain as 
a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; 
and maybe even think Poor, poor me!  Why do I have to suffer all this 
pain?  What did I do to deserve this?  I just want it to go away!.

...Bill! 

--- In Zen_Forum

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-25 Thread Merle Lester



 delusional...huh?...wait till the sun goes down on you!! merle


  
Most people of such delusional persuasion also use 'creation' as a noun.

KG



On 8/25/2013 1:01 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

  
Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how 
most people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a belief. 
Why paint legs on a snake?

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-25 Thread uerusuboyo

The creating and identifying of the ego as self is what creates suffering: the 
First Noble Truth.br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-25 Thread Merle Lester



  which self?..merle


  
The creating and identifying of the ego as self is what creates suffering: the 
First Noble Truth.


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From:  Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; 
To:  Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject:  Re: [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent:  Sun, Aug 25, 2013 8:10:17 AM 


  


 yes... but we do it anyway..so let's have fun doing it..merle


  
Merle,

The idea behind self-realisation to to stop the weaving and deconstruct. You 
should know that..

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From:  Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; 
To:  Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject:  Re: [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent:  Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:31:32 AM 


  


 
mike...it is the nature of the beast : human... to construct  weave and 
create.. we do not live by bread alone..you know that...merle
  
Merle

They're both fictional constructs. But at least ego has some relative truth.

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From:  Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; 
To:  Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject:  Re: [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent:  Sat, Aug 24, 2013 6:40:32 AM 


  
mike excuse me...what's soul got to do with ego?..merle
 


  
Bill!,

Would you agree that you probably would never have experienced 'zen' without 
Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the spreading of the sutras? I agree that 
experiencing Buddha Nature is not intrinsically dependent on them, but it may 
as well be. Without Buddha's rediscovering of Buddha Nature we'd probably still 
be believing in souls and the reality of an ego. 

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From:  Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org; 
To:  Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject:  [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent:  Sat, Aug 24, 2013 4:24:25 AM 


  
Merle,

Well, that all depends on what you mean by 'zen'.

I've defined what I mean by zen (lower-case 'z') many, many times on this forum 
and elsewhere.  A short version of that definition is:  a set of teachings and 
techniques that first lead you to directly experience reality (a.k.a. Buddha 
Nature); and then helps you integrate that experience into every facet of your 
daily life.

These techniques (zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc...)do not have to be 
associated with Buddhism.  If they are then that is Zen Buddhism, and in that 
case the teachings are encased in the language of Buddhism.  This is fact is 
how I was introduced to zen, via a Japanese form of Zen Buddhism.

To sum up, I believe zen is not in any way dependent upon Buddhism, Buddhist 
teachings, dogmas, doctrine or practices.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:

 
 
 Â 
 Â from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have 
 buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle
 Â  
 Merle,
 
 Yes.  IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism.
 
 Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, 
 doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc...  All these IMO have nothing 
 directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on 
 covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen.  In the case of most 
 other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a 
 cult.
 
 This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a 
 common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 
 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism.
 
 This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those 
 that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists.
 
 ...Bill!
 
 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
 
  
  
  Ã‚Â hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as 
  zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle
  Ã‚Â  
  Merle,
  
  As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist.
  
  I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I 
  practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions.  What 
  it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions.
  
  ...Bill!
  
  ...Bill!
  
  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
  
   
   
   Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are 
   you?..merle
   Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â  
   Merle,
   
   Yes!  Why me?  Why not someone else?  Someone I don't like?  Someone who 
   doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same 
   language as I do.  Someone ELSE!
   
   ...Bill!
   
   --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
   


ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not 
you?...merle
ÃƒÆ'Ã

RE: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-25 Thread uerusuboyo

I thought it was a 60s flashback thing..br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail 
for iPad

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-25 Thread Merle Lester



bill... not yet..it's coming to a store near you next month...merle
  
Merle,

Did you just have a birthday or something?

...Bill!

.

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-25 Thread Merle Lester



 bill...they are in yahoo ... ..merle
  
Merle,

I was just wondering where you got all those emoticans you started using 
lately...

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:

 
 
 bill... not yet..it's coming to a store near you next month...merle
   
 Merle,
 
 Did you just have a birthday or something?
 
 ...Bill!
 
 .

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-24 Thread larry maher

Zen is a religion looking for a God. The Buddha said 'there is no way to
prove God and there is no way to not prove, so believe whatever works for
you.' That's why I like Eastern thought, Hindu's cool also, just too many
gimics and sideshows and people thinking dressing in white bathrobes helps
get you somewhere. Lots of culture confusion. Just my opinion.


On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 11:52 PM, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.comwrote:

 **




  from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have
 buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle

 Merle,

 Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism.

 Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles,
 dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have
 nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like
 an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case
 of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact
 seen as a cult.

 This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which
 is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an
 upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism.

 This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by
 those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists.

 ...Bill!

 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
 
 
 
  Â hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to
 as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle
  Â
  Merle,
 
  As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a
 Buddhist.
 
  I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I
 practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What
 it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions.
 
  ...Bill!
 
  ...Bill!
 
  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
  
  
  
   Ã‚Â bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are
 you?..merle
   Ã‚Â
   Merle,
  
   Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who
 doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language
 as I do. Someone ELSE!
  
   ...Bill!
  
   --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
   
   
   
Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle
Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â
Merle,
   
I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain
 as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and
 maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain?
 What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!.
   
...Bill!
   
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@
 wrote:



 ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â have you been in pain bill..and thought it was
 judgemental delusion?...merle


 ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â
 Merle,

 I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post
 below.

 The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha
 Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just
 as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red
 bird' is the delusion.

 ...Bill!

 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@
 wrote:
 
 
 
  ÃƒÆ'Ã†'ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â bill...i see...so if
 one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled
 over and in agony...merle
 
 
  ÃƒÆ'Ã†'ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â
  Merle,
 
  I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as
 through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves
 a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism.
 
  ...Bill!
 
  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote:
  
   Merle,
  
   No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as
 far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford
 awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not
 only humans but all beings as we know them.
  
   ...Bill!
  
   --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@
 wrote:
   
i know this is a little crazy..however here i
 go..ÃƒÆ'Ã†'ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â
   
the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are
 in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out
 there...mm that has me stumped!
   
would this body less be liken to the meditation
 ÃƒÆ'Ã†'ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â state that can be achieved once
 one has surpassed the breath counting saga?
   
ÃƒÆ'Ã†'ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â i have belief that
 monks can practise a form of

RE: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-24 Thread uerusuboyo

Bill!,br/br/Would you agree that you probably would never have experienced 
'zen' without Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the spreading of the sutras? 
I agree that experiencing Buddha Nature is not intrinsically dependent on them, 
but it may as well be. Without Buddha's rediscovering of Buddha Nature we'd 
probably still be believing in souls and the reality of an ego. 
br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-24 Thread uerusuboyo

Larry,br/br/Why would Zen be looking for a God? That would just be creating 
an unnecessary dualism. The universe works perfectly well without the need to 
create a Creator.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for 
iPad

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-24 Thread larry maher

Yes, yes totally agree. I just mentioned reading years ago that the Buddha
said believe whatever's easier while following the middle way.


On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 2:27 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

 **


 Larry,

 Why would Zen be looking for a God? That would just be creating an
 unnecessary dualism. The universe works perfectly well without the need to
 create a Creator.

 Mike



 Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

  --
 * From: * larry maher lcmahe...@gmail.com;
 * To: * Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com;
 * Subject: * Re: [Zen] Re: the human body
 * Sent: * Sat, Aug 24, 2013 6:20:48 AM



 Zen is a religion looking for a God. The Buddha said 'there is no way to
 prove God and there is no way to not prove, so believe whatever works for
 you.' That's why I like Eastern thought, Hindu's cool also, just too many
 gimics and sideshows and people thinking dressing in white bathrobes helps
 get you somewhere. Lots of culture confusion. Just my opinion.


 On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 11:52 PM, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.comwrote:

 **




  from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have
 buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle

 Merle,

 Yes. IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism.

 Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles,
 dogma, doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc... All these IMO have
 nothing directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like
 an add-on covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen. In the case
 of most other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact
 seen as a cult.

 This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which
 is a common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an
 upper-case 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism.

 This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by
 those that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists.

 ...Bill!

 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
 
 
 
  Â hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to
 as zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle
  Â
  Merle,
 
  As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a
 Buddhist.
 
  I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because
 I practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions.
 What it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those
 delusions.
 
  ...Bill!
 
  ...Bill!
 
  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
  
  
  
   Ã‚Â bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are
 you?..merle
   Ã‚Â
   Merle,
  
   Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who
 doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language
 as I do. Someone ELSE!
  
   ...Bill!
  
   --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
   
   
   
Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not
 you?...merle
Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â
Merle,
   
I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain
 as a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and
 maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain?
 What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!.
   
...Bill!
   
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@
 wrote:



 ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â have you been in pain bill..and thought it
 was judgemental delusion?...merle


 ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â
 Merle,

 I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post
 below.

 The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is
 Buddha Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental
 delusion. Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it
 as 'a red bird' is the delusion.

 ...Bill!

 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@
 wrote:
 
 
 
  ÃƒÆ'Ã†'ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â bill...i see...so if
 one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled
 over and in agony...merle
 
 
  ÃƒÆ'Ã†'ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â
  Merle,
 
  I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as
 through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves
 a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism.
 
  ...Bill!
 
  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote:
  
   Merle,
  
   No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least
 as far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford
 awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not
 only humans but all beings as we know them.
  
   ...Bill!
  
   --- In Zen_Forum

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-24 Thread Merle Lester



 mike..for you it might..for others it is a source of comfort..don't be so 
harsh..merle


  
Larry,

Why would Zen be looking for a God? That would just be creating an unnecessary 
dualism. The universe works perfectly well without the need to create a Creator.

Mike



Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From:  larry maher lcmahe...@gmail.com; 
To:  Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject:  Re: [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent:  Sat, Aug 24, 2013 6:20:48 AM 


  
Zen is a religion looking for a God. The Buddha said 'there is no way to prove 
God and there is no way to not prove, so believe whatever works for you.' 
That's why I like Eastern thought, Hindu's cool also, just too many gimics and 
sideshows and people thinking dressing in white bathrobes helps get you 
somewhere. Lots of culture confusion. Just my opinion.



On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 11:52 PM, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com wrote:

 
  


 
 from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have 
buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle
  
Merle,

Yes.  IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism.

Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, 
doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc...  All these IMO have nothing 
directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on 
covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen.  In the case of most 
other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult.

This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a 
common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' 
which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism.

This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those 
that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:

 
 
 Â hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as 
 zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle
 Â  
 Merle,
 
 As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist.
 
 I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I 
 practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions.  What 
 it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions.
 
 ...Bill!
 
 ...Bill!
 
 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
 
  
  
  Ã‚Â bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are 
  you?..merle
  Ã‚Â  
  Merle,
  
  Yes!  Why me?  Why not someone else?  Someone I don't like?  Someone who 
  doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same 
  language as I do.  Someone ELSE!
  
  ...Bill!
  
  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
  
   
   
   Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle
   Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â  
   Merle,
   
   I have been in pain before.  When I am in pain I don't think of pain as 
   a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and 
   maybe even think Poor, poor me!  Why do I have to suffer all this pain? 
What did I do to deserve this?  I just want it to go away!.
   
   ...Bill! 
   
   --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
   


ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â have you been in pain bill..and thought it was 
judgemental delusion?...merle


ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â  
Merle,

I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below.

The experience of feeling/touch is real.  That experience is Buddha 
Nature.  The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental 
delusion.  Just as the experience of sight is real.  The 
classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion.

...Bill! 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:

 
 
 ÃƒÆ'Ã†'ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â bill...i see...so if one 
 is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled 
 over and in agony...merle
 
 
 ÃƒÆ'Ã†'ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â  
 Merle,
 
 I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through 
 zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body.  It involves 
 a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism.
 
 ...Bill!
 
 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote:
 
  Merle,
  
  No, the body is not a restraint.  It is a gateway - at least as 
  far as zen is concerned.  The body, or at least its ability to 
  afford awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha 
  Nature for not only humans but all beings as we know them.
  
  ...Bill!
  
  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ 
  wrote:
  
   i know

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-24 Thread Merle Lester

mike excuse me...what's soul got to do with ego?..merle
 


  
Bill!,

Would you agree that you probably would never have experienced 'zen' without 
Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the spreading of the sutras? I agree that 
experiencing Buddha Nature is not intrinsically dependent on them, but it may 
as well be. Without Buddha's rediscovering of Buddha Nature we'd probably still 
be believing in souls and the reality of an ego. 

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From:  Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org; 
To:  Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject:  [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent:  Sat, Aug 24, 2013 4:24:25 AM 


  
Merle,

Well, that all depends on what you mean by 'zen'.

I've defined what I mean by zen (lower-case 'z') many, many times on this forum 
and elsewhere.  A short version of that definition is:  a set of teachings and 
techniques that first lead you to directly experience reality (a.k.a. Buddha 
Nature); and then helps you integrate that experience into every facet of your 
daily life.

These techniques (zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc...)do not have to be 
associated with Buddhism.  If they are then that is Zen Buddhism, and in that 
case the teachings are encased in the language of Buddhism.  This is fact is 
how I was introduced to zen, via a Japanese form of Zen Buddhism.

To sum up, I believe zen is not in any way dependent upon Buddhism, Buddhist 
teachings, dogmas, doctrine or practices.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:

 
 
 Â 
 Â from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have 
 buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle
 Â  
 Merle,
 
 Yes.  IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism.
 
 Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, 
 doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc...  All these IMO have nothing 
 directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on 
 covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen.  In the case of most 
 other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a 
 cult.
 
 This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a 
 common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 
 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism.
 
 This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those 
 that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists.
 
 ...Bill!
 
 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
 
  
  
  Ã‚Â hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as 
  zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle
  Ã‚Â  
  Merle,
  
  As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist.
  
  I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I 
  practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions.  What 
  it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions.
  
  ...Bill!
  
  ...Bill!
  
  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
  
   
   
   Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are 
   you?..merle
   Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â  
   Merle,
   
   Yes!  Why me?  Why not someone else?  Someone I don't like?  Someone who 
   doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same 
   language as I do.  Someone ELSE!
   
   ...Bill!
   
   --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
   


ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not 
you?...merle
ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â  
Merle,

I have been in pain before.  When I am in pain I don't think of pain as 
a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; 
and maybe even think Poor, poor me!  Why do I have to suffer all this 
pain?  What did I do to deserve this?  I just want it to go away!.

...Bill! 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:

 
 
 ÃƒÆ'Ã†'ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â have you been in pain 
 bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle
 
 
 ÃƒÆ'Ã†'ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â  
 Merle,
 
 I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below.
 
 The experience of feeling/touch is real.  That experience is Buddha 
 Nature.  The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental 
 delusion.  Just as the experience of sight is real.  The 
 classification of it as 'a red bird' is the delusion.
 
 ...Bill! 
 
 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
 
  
  
  ÃƒÆ'Ã†'Ãƒâ€ 
  'ÃƒÆ'Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€¦Ã‚Â¡ÃƒÆ'Ã†'ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â
   bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try 
  telling that to someone

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-24 Thread Merle Lester



 interesting bill..your streaks ahead in consciousness..merle


  
Mike,

No and Yes...

The no part is that I experienced Buddha Nature on my own before encountering 
zen.  I'm sure we all have.  When we were infants before our intellect was 
developed enough to create the delusion of duality/plurality I believe we were 
experiencing Buddha Nature.  Also, even later, when we became completely 
absorbed in something, like sports or art or nature, we also may have 
experienced Buddha Nature.  In my case however I just did not know what it was 
and its significance.

The yes part is that it was first reading about zen (Alan Watts) and then 
formal Zen Buddhist training (Japanese Rinzai and Soto schools) that enabled me 
to rediscover Buddha Nature, learn to purposely experience it, appreciate its 
significance and begin to integrate it more fully into my daily life.

...Bill! 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote:

 Bill!,br/br/Would you agree that you probably would never have 
 experienced 'zen' without Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the spreading 
 of the sutras? I agree that experiencing Buddha Nature is not intrinsically 
 dependent on them, but it may as well be. Without Buddha's rediscovering of 
 Buddha Nature we'd probably still be believing in souls and the reality of an 
 ego. br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-24 Thread uerusuboyo

Merlebr/br/They're both fictional constructs. But at least ego has some 
relative truth.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-24 Thread uerusuboyo

Merle,br/br/Utility is no measure of 
Truth.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-24 Thread Kristopher Grey


On 8/24/2013 2:27 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


Larry,

Why would Zen be looking for a God? That would just be creating an 
unnecessary dualism. The universe works perfectly well without the 
need to create a Creator.


Mike



Even the need some feel to identify or creating a creator is an integral 
aspect of this ever-presently unfolding creation. Duality, always a 
matter of appearances. Zen, no-thing at all. Tao you see it, Tao you don't.


KG

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-24 Thread Kristopher Grey


And comfort is only sought when dis-eased.

KG

On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:


Merle,

Utility is no measure of Truth.

Mike

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-24 Thread uerusuboyo

God is no different than a haemorrhoid cream. I like 
it!br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-24 Thread larry maher

I am very very impressed with how you lived your life. I found this, well,
to be frank, all too late. I knew about it, read about it, even tried it a
few times but I didn't get more interested until I was desperate.
Thanks,
Larry
PS I've sort of belonged to a open internet group with a terrific
moderator. It's called AYPsite.com.


On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 4:07 AM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

 **


 Mike,

 No and Yes...

 The no part is that I experienced Buddha Nature on my own before
 encountering zen. I'm sure we all have. When we were infants before our
 intellect was developed enough to create the delusion of duality/plurality
 I believe we were experiencing Buddha Nature. Also, even later, when we
 became completely absorbed in something, like sports or art or nature, we
 also may have experienced Buddha Nature. In my case however I just did not
 know what it was and its significance.

 The yes part is that it was first reading about zen (Alan Watts) and
 then formal Zen Buddhist training (Japanese Rinzai and Soto schools) that
 enabled me to rediscover Buddha Nature, learn to purposely experience it,
 appreciate its significance and begin to integrate it more fully into my
 daily life.

 ...Bill!

 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
 
  Bill!,br/br/Would you agree that you probably would never have
 experienced 'zen' without Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the
 spreading of the sutras? I agree that experiencing Buddha Nature is not
 intrinsically dependent on them, but it may as well be. Without Buddha's
 rediscovering of Buddha Nature we'd probably still be believing in souls
 and the reality of an ego. br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo!
 Mail for iPad
 

  




-- 
*Larry Maher*

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-24 Thread Merle Lester



 mike..explain yourself please..
and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks 
that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle
  
And comfort is only sought when dis-eased.  

KG

On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

  
Merle,

Utility is no measure of Truth.

Mike

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-24 Thread Merle Lester



 
cynical mike..tut tut..shame on you..merle


  
God is no different than a haemorrhoid cream. I like it!

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From:  Kristopher Grey k...@kgrey.com; 
To:  Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject:  Re: [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent:  Sat, Aug 24, 2013 1:32:29 PM 


  
And comfort is only sought when dis-eased.  

KG

On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

  
Merle,

Utility is no measure of Truth.

Mike

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-24 Thread Merle Lester

 what is AYPsite.com? merle


  
I am very very impressed with how you lived your life. I found this, well, to 
be frank, all too late. I knew about it, read about it, even tried it a few 
times but I didn't get more interested until I was desperate. 
Thanks,
Larry
PS I've sort of belonged to a open internet group with a terrific moderator. 
It's called AYPsite.com.  



On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 4:07 AM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote:

 
  
Mike,

No and Yes...

The no part is that I experienced Buddha Nature on my own before 
encountering zen.  I'm sure we all have.  When we were infants before our 
intellect was developed enough to create the delusion of duality/plurality I 
believe we were experiencing Buddha Nature.  Also, even later, when we became 
completely absorbed in something, like sports or art or nature, we also may 
have experienced Buddha Nature.  In my case however I just did not know what 
it was and its significance.

The yes part is that it was first reading about zen (Alan Watts) and then 
formal Zen Buddhist training (Japanese Rinzai and Soto schools) that enabled 
me to rediscover Buddha Nature, learn to purposely experience it, appreciate 
its significance and begin to integrate it more fully into my daily life.

...Bill! 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote:

 Bill!,br/br/Would you agree that you probably would never have 
 experienced 'zen' without Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the spreading 
 of the sutras? I agree that experiencing Buddha Nature is not intrinsically 
 dependent on them, but it may as well be. Without Buddha's rediscovering of 
 Buddha Nature we'd probably still be believing in souls and the reality of 
 an ego. br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad





-- 
Larry Maher

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-24 Thread Merle Lester



 
mike...it is the nature of the beast : human... to construct  weave and 
create.. we do not live by bread alone..you know that...merle
  
Merle

They're both fictional constructs. But at least ego has some relative truth.

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From:  Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; 
To:  Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject:  Re: [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent:  Sat, Aug 24, 2013 6:40:32 AM 


  
mike excuse me...what's soul got to do with ego?..merle
 


  
Bill!,

Would you agree that you probably would never have experienced 'zen' without 
Siddharta Gotama's enlightenment and the spreading of the sutras? I agree that 
experiencing Buddha Nature is not intrinsically dependent on them, but it may 
as well be. Without Buddha's rediscovering of Buddha Nature we'd probably still 
be believing in souls and the reality of an ego. 

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From:  Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org; 
To:  Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject:  [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent:  Sat, Aug 24, 2013 4:24:25 AM 


  
Merle,

Well, that all depends on what you mean by 'zen'.

I've defined what I mean by zen (lower-case 'z') many, many times on this forum 
and elsewhere.  A short version of that definition is:  a set of teachings and 
techniques that first lead you to directly experience reality (a.k.a. Buddha 
Nature); and then helps you integrate that experience into every facet of your 
daily life.

These techniques (zazen, chanting, bowing, koans, etc...)do not have to be 
associated with Buddhism.  If they are then that is Zen Buddhism, and in that 
case the teachings are encased in the language of Buddhism.  This is fact is 
how I was introduced to zen, via a Japanese form of Zen Buddhism.

To sum up, I believe zen is not in any way dependent upon Buddhism, Buddhist 
teachings, dogmas, doctrine or practices.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:

 
 
 Â 
 Â from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have 
 buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle
 Â  
 Merle,
 
 Yes.  IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism.
 
 Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, 
 doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc...  All these IMO have nothing 
 directly to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on 
 covering and adornments that are wrapped around zen.  In the case of most 
 other Buddhist sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a 
 cult.
 
 This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a 
 common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 
 'Z' which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism.
 
 This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those 
 that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists.
 
 ...Bill!
 
 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
 
  
  
  Ã‚Â hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as 
  zen buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle
  Ã‚Â  
  Merle,
  
  As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist.
  
  I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I 
  practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions.  What 
  it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions.
  
  ...Bill!
  
  ...Bill!
  
  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
  
   
   
   Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are 
   you?..merle
   Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â  
   Merle,
   
   Yes!  Why me?  Why not someone else?  Someone I don't like?  Someone who 
   doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same 
   language as I do.  Someone ELSE!
   
   ...Bill!
   
   --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
   


ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not 
you?...merle
ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â  
Merle,

I have been in pain before.  When I am in pain I don't think of pain as 
a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; 
and maybe even think Poor, poor me!  Why do I have to suffer all this 
pain?  What did I do to deserve this?  I just want it to go away!.

...Bill! 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:

 
 
 ÃƒÆ'Ã†'ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â have you been in pain 
 bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle
 
 
 ÃƒÆ'Ã†'ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â  
 Merle,
 
 I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below.
 
 The experience of feeling/touch is real.  That experience is Buddha 
 Nature

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-24 Thread uerusuboyo

Merle,br/br/Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it 
true. br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-24 Thread uerusuboyo

But they're both so comforting!br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-24 Thread uerusuboyo

Merle,br/br/The idea behind self-realisation to to stop the weaving and 
deconstruct. You should know that..br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from 
Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-24 Thread Merle Lester



 mike ..you have missed the boat...( the point)... watch the brazilian tribe 
doc..then tell me there is no god...merle
  
Merle,

Just because belief in a god gives comfort it doesn't make it true. 

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From:  Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; 
To:  Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; 
Subject:  Re: [Zen] Re: the human body 
Sent:  Sun, Aug 25, 2013 1:23:16 AM 


  


 mike..explain yourself please..
and KG not true...on a beautiful spring day one rejoices and gives thanks 
that one has eyes to see and ears to hear and a tongue to speak..merle
  
And comfort is only sought when dis-eased.  

KG

On 8/24/2013 4:19 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

  
Merle,

Utility is no measure of Truth.

Mike

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-24 Thread uerusuboyo

Your definition is meaningless though and certainly not in accord with how most 
people define 'God'. The universe works just fine without such a belief. Why 
paint legs on a snake?br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for 
iPad

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-23 Thread larry maher

Can anyone help me? I'm new here. I was just wondering who the forum head
was? If the answer is no one could I please find out who Merle or Bill is?
The one with the 45 yrs of meditation. I won't bother anyone, am just
trying to figure this out.
Thank you
Larry


On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.comwrote:

 **




  bill...so you are still telling me pain is a delusion?... tell me next
 time when you are in deep pain..try a very bad toothache..see it as a
 delusion and don't visit the dentist...how long will you last before you
 realise it is real and needs attention?...merle


 Merle,

 As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist.

 I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I
 practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What
 it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions.

 ...Bill!

 ...Bill!

 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
 
 
 
  Â bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are
 you?..merle
  Â
  Merle,
 
  Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who
 doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language
 as I do. Someone ELSE!
 
  ...Bill!
 
  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
  
  
  
   Ã‚Â bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle
   Ã‚Â
   Merle,
  
   I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as
 a judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and
 maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain?
 What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!.
  
   ...Bill!
  
   --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
   
   
   
Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental
 delusion?...merle
   
   
Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â
Merle,
   
I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below.
   
The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha
 Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just
 as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red
 bird' is the delusion.
   
...Bill!
   
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@
 wrote:



 ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is
 an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle


 ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â
 Merle,

 I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as
 through zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves
 a disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism.

 ...Bill!

 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote:
 
  Merle,
 
  No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as
 far as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford
 awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not
 only humans but all beings as we know them.
 
  ...Bill!
 
  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@
 wrote:
  
   i know this is a little crazy..however here i
 go..ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â
  
   the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are
 in cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out
 there...mm that has me stumped!
  
   would this body less be liken to the meditation
 ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the
 breath counting saga?
  
   ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â i have belief that monks can practise a
 form of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down
 to an almost non existent state
  
   in all the many previous post there has been much focus on
 slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so
 to speak?
  
   after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in
 the body that we do not have any control over what so ever...
  
   (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own
 thing regardless)...
  
   a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut
  
   ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â my zen question is thus:
 ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â to be totally free ..the human body is it a restraint?
  
   ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â merle
  
  
   ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â
   Merle
   www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1
  
 

   
  
 



   




-- 
*Larry Maher*

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-23 Thread Edgar Owen

Larry,

Bill and me, Edgar, are co-moderators of the group...

Edgar



On Aug 23, 2013, at 12:32 PM, larry maher wrote:

 
 Can anyone help me? I'm new here. I was just wondering who the forum head 
 was? If the answer is no one could I please find out who Merle or Bill is? 
 The one with the 45 yrs of meditation. I won't bother anyone, am just trying 
 to figure this out.
 Thank you
 Larry
 
 
 On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 6:53 PM, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com wrote:
  
 
 
  
  bill...so you are still telling me pain is a delusion?... tell me next time 
 when you are in deep pain..try a very bad toothache..see it as a delusion and 
 don't visit the dentist...how long will you last before you realise it is 
 real and needs attention?...merle
 
  
 Merle,
 
 As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist.
 
 I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I 
 practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions. What it 
 means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions.
 
 ...Bill!
 
 ...Bill!
 
 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
 
  
  
  Â bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are 
  you?..merle
  Â  
  Merle,
  
  Yes! Why me? Why not someone else? Someone I don't like? Someone who 
  doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language 
  as I do. Someone ELSE!
  
  ...Bill!
  
  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
  
   
   
   Ã‚Â bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle
   Ã‚Â  
   Merle,
   
   I have been in pain before. When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a 
   judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and 
   maybe even think Poor, poor me! Why do I have to suffer all this pain? 
   What did I do to deserve this? I just want it to go away!.
   
   ...Bill! 
   
   --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
   


Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental 
delusion?...merle


Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â  
Merle,

I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below.

The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha 
Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. 
Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a 
red bird' is the delusion.

...Bill! 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:

 
 
 ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an 
 illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle
 
 
 ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â  
 Merle,
 
 I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through 
 zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body. It involves a 
 disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism.
 
 ...Bill!
 
 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote:
 
  Merle,
  
  No, the body is not a restraint. It is a gateway - at least as far 
  as zen is concerned. The body, or at least its ability to afford 
  awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature 
  for not only humans but all beings as we know them.
  
  ...Bill!
  
  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ 
  wrote:
  
   i know this is a little crazy..however here i 
   go..ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â 
   
   the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in 
   cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out 
   there...mm that has me stumped!
   
   would this body less be liken to the meditation 
   ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â state that can be achieved once one has 
   surpassed the breath counting saga?
   
   ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â i have belief that monks can practise a form 
   of meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally 
   down to an almost non existent state
   
   in all the many previous post there has been much focus on 
   slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of 
   it's own so to speak?
   
   after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the 
   body that we do not have any control over what so ever...
   
   (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing 
   regardless)...
   
   a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut
   
   ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â my zen question is thus: ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â 
   to be totally free ..the human body is it a restraint?
   
   ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â merle
   
   
   ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â 
   Merle
   www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-23 Thread Merle Lester



 
 from what i gather you would not have zen if you did not have 
buddhism..correct me if i am incorrect..merle
  
Merle,

Yes.  IMO zen is not an exclusive subset or sect of Buddhism.

Buddhism is a religion has does have many, many lists of principles, dogma, 
doctrines, rituals, precepts, vows, etc...  All these IMO have nothing directly 
to do with zen, but in the case of Zen Buddhism are like an add-on covering and 
adornments that are wrapped around zen.  In the case of most other Buddhist 
sects zen does not play any part, and is in fact seen as a cult.

This is why I draw a distinction between zen with a lower-case 'z' which is a 
common noun and refers only the zen in general, and Zen with an upper-case 'Z' 
which is a proper noun referring to Zen Buddhism.

This again is IMO and is not the traditional view of Zen Buddhism...by those 
that identify themselves as Zen Buddhists.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:

 
 
 Â hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen 
 buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle
 Â  
 Merle,
 
 As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist.
 
 I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I 
 practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions.  What 
 it means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions.
 
 ...Bill!
 
 ...Bill!
 
 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
 
  
  
  Ã‚Â bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are 
  you?..merle
  Ã‚Â  
  Merle,
  
  Yes!  Why me?  Why not someone else?  Someone I don't like?  Someone who 
  doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language 
  as I do.  Someone ELSE!
  
  ...Bill!
  
  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
  
   
   
   Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle
   Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â  
   Merle,
   
   I have been in pain before.  When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a 
   judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and 
   maybe even think Poor, poor me!  Why do I have to suffer all this pain?  
   What did I do to deserve this?  I just want it to go away!.
   
   ...Bill! 
   
   --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
   


ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â have you been in pain bill..and thought it was 
judgemental delusion?...merle


ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â  
Merle,

I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below.

The experience of feeling/touch is real.  That experience is Buddha 
Nature.  The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. 
 Just as the experience of sight is real.  The classification of it as 
'a red bird' is the delusion.

...Bill! 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:

 
 
 ÃƒÆ'Ã†'ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â bill...i see...so if one is 
 in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over 
 and in agony...merle
 
 
 ÃƒÆ'Ã†'ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â  
 Merle,
 
 I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through 
 zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body.  It involves a 
 disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism.
 
 ...Bill!
 
 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote:
 
  Merle,
  
  No, the body is not a restraint.  It is a gateway - at least as far 
  as zen is concerned.  The body, or at least its ability to afford 
  awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature 
  for not only humans but all beings as we know them.
  
  ...Bill!
  
  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ 
  wrote:
  
   i know this is a little crazy..however here i 
   go..ÃƒÆ'Ã†'ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â 
   
   the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in 
   cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out 
   there...mm that has me stumped!
   
   would this body less be liken to the meditation 
   ÃƒÆ'Ã†'ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â state that can be 
   achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga?
   
   ÃƒÆ'Ã†'ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã…Â¡ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â i have belief that 
   monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can slow the 
   whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state
   
   in all the many previous post there has been much focus on 
   slowing the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of 
   it's own so to speak?
   
   after all there are millions of tiny

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-22 Thread Merle Lester



 bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle
  
Merle,

I have been in pain before.  When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a 
judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe 
even think Poor, poor me!  Why do I have to suffer all this pain?  What did I 
do to deserve this?  I just want it to go away!.

...Bill! 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:

 
 
 Â have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle
 
 
 Â  
 Merle,
 
 I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below.
 
 The experience of feeling/touch is real.  That experience is Buddha Nature.  
 The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion.  Just as the 
 experience of sight is real.  The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the 
 delusion.
 
 ...Bill! 
 
 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
 
  
  
  Ã‚Â bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling 
  that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle
  
  
  Ã‚Â  
  Merle,
  
  I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, 
  does not involve a disconnection with the body.  It involves a 
  disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism.
  
  ...Bill!
  
  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote:
  
   Merle,
   
   No, the body is not a restraint.  It is a gateway - at least as far as 
   zen is concerned.  The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness 
   of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only 
   humans but all beings as we know them.
   
   ...Bill!
   
   --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
   
i know this is a little crazy..however here i go..Ã‚Â 

the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber 
space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm 
that has me stumped!

would this body less be liken to the meditation Ã‚Â state that can be 
achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga?

Ã‚Â i have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation whereby 
the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non 
existent state

in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing the 
mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so to 
speak?

after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the body 
that we do not have any control over what so ever...

(meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing 
regardless)...

a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut

Ã‚Â my zen question is thus: Ã‚Â to be totally free ..the human body is 
it a restraint?

Ã‚Â merle


Ã‚Â 
Merle
www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-22 Thread Merle Lester



 bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle
  
Merle,

Yes!  Why me?  Why not someone else?  Someone I don't like?  Someone who 
doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language as 
I do.  Someone ELSE!

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:

 
 
 Â bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle
 Â  
 Merle,
 
 I have been in pain before.  When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a 
 judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe 
 even think Poor, poor me!  Why do I have to suffer all this pain?  What did 
 I do to deserve this?  I just want it to go away!.
 
 ...Bill! 
 
 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
 
  
  
  Ã‚Â have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental 
  delusion?...merle
  
  
  Ã‚Â  
  Merle,
  
  I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below.
  
  The experience of feeling/touch is real.  That experience is Buddha Nature. 
   The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion.  Just as 
  the experience of sight is real.  The classification of it as 'a red bird' 
  is the delusion.
  
  ...Bill! 
  
  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
  
   
   
   Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try 
   telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle
   
   
   Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â  
   Merle,
   
   I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through 
   zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body.  It involves a 
   disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism.
   
   ...Bill!
   
   --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote:
   
Merle,

No, the body is not a restraint.  It is a gateway - at least as far as 
zen is concerned.  The body, or at least its ability to afford 
awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for 
not only humans but all beings as we know them.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:

 i know this is a little crazy..however here i go..Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â 
 
 the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber 
 space although we need the body to get the messages out 
 there...mm that has me stumped!
 
 would this body less be liken to the meditation Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â state that 
 can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga?
 
 Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â i have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation 
 whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an almost 
 non existent state
 
 in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing 
 the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so 
 to speak?
 
 after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the body 
 that we do not have any control over what so ever...
 
 (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing 
 regardless)...
 
 a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut
 
 Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â my zen question is thus: Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â to be totally free ..the 
 human body is it a restraint?
 
 Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â merle
 
 
 Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â 
 Merle
 www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-22 Thread Merle Lester



 hallo bill...so tell me why oh why is the classification referred to as zen 
buddhism?... can you have zen without buddhist principles?... merle
  
Merle,

As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist.

I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I 
practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions.  What it 
means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions.

...Bill!

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:

 
 
 Â bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle
 Â  
 Merle,
 
 Yes!  Why me?  Why not someone else?  Someone I don't like?  Someone who 
 doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language 
 as I do.  Someone ELSE!
 
 ...Bill!
 
 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
 
  
  
  Ã‚Â bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle
  Ã‚Â  
  Merle,
  
  I have been in pain before.  When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a 
  judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and 
  maybe even think Poor, poor me!  Why do I have to suffer all this pain?  
  What did I do to deserve this?  I just want it to go away!.
  
  ...Bill! 
  
  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
  
   
   
   Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental 
   delusion?...merle
   
   
   Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â  
   Merle,
   
   I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below.
   
   The experience of feeling/touch is real.  That experience is Buddha 
   Nature.  The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion.  
   Just as the experience of sight is real.  The classification of it as 'a 
   red bird' is the delusion.
   
   ...Bill! 
   
   --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
   


ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an 
illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle


ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â  
Merle,

I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through 
zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body.  It involves a 
disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote:

 Merle,
 
 No, the body is not a restraint.  It is a gateway - at least as far 
 as zen is concerned.  The body, or at least its ability to afford 
 awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for 
 not only humans but all beings as we know them.
 
 ...Bill!
 
 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
 
  i know this is a little crazy..however here i 
  go..ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â 
  
  the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in 
  cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out 
  there...mm that has me stumped!
  
  would this body less be liken to the meditation ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â 
  state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath 
  counting saga?
  
  ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â i have belief that monks can practise a form of 
  meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down 
  to an almost non existent state
  
  in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing 
  the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so 
  to speak?
  
  after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the 
  body that we do not have any control over what so ever...
  
  (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing 
  regardless)...
  
  a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut
  
  ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â my zen question is thus: ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â to 
  be totally free ..the human body is it a restraint?
  
  ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â merle
  
  
  ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â 
  Merle
  www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-22 Thread Merle Lester



 
 bill...so you are still telling me pain is a delusion?... tell me next time 
when you are in deep pain..try a very bad toothache..see it as a delusion and 
don't visit the dentist...how long will you last before you realise it is real 
and needs attention?...merle


  
Merle,

As you should very well know by now I don't identify with being a Buddhist.

I do however practice zen and have for over 45 years; but just because I 
practice zen doesn't mean I don't feel pain, or have other delusions.  What it 
means is that (most of the time) I am not attached to those delusions.

...Bill!

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:

 
 
 Â bill...acceptance is the key...what sort odf a zen buddhist are you?..merle
 Â  
 Merle,
 
 Yes!  Why me?  Why not someone else?  Someone I don't like?  Someone who 
 doesn't look like me or is the same color as me or speaks the same language 
 as I do.  Someone ELSE!
 
 ...Bill!
 
 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
 
  
  
  Ã‚Â bill...not why me...that's plain silly..why not you?...merle
  Ã‚Â  
  Merle,
  
  I have been in pain before.  When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a 
  judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and 
  maybe even think Poor, poor me!  Why do I have to suffer all this pain?  
  What did I do to deserve this?  I just want it to go away!.
  
  ...Bill! 
  
  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
  
   
   
   Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental 
   delusion?...merle
   
   
   Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â  
   Merle,
   
   I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below.
   
   The experience of feeling/touch is real.  That experience is Buddha 
   Nature.  The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion.  
   Just as the experience of sight is real.  The classification of it as 'a 
   red bird' is the delusion.
   
   ...Bill! 
   
   --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
   


ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an 
illusion..try telling that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle


ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â  
Merle,

I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through 
zazen, does not involve a disconnection with the body.  It involves a 
disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote:

 Merle,
 
 No, the body is not a restraint.  It is a gateway - at least as far 
 as zen is concerned.  The body, or at least its ability to afford 
 awareness of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for 
 not only humans but all beings as we know them.
 
 ...Bill!
 
 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
 
  i know this is a little crazy..however here i 
  go..ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â 
  
  the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in 
  cyber space although we need the body to get the messages out 
  there...mm that has me stumped!
  
  would this body less be liken to the meditation ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â 
  state that can be achieved once one has surpassed the breath 
  counting saga?
  
  ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â i have belief that monks can practise a form of 
  meditation whereby the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down 
  to an almost non existent state
  
  in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing 
  the mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so 
  to speak?
  
  after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the 
  body that we do not have any control over what so ever...
  
  (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing 
  regardless)...
  
  a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut
  
  ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â my zen question is thus: ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â to 
  be totally free ..the human body is it a restraint?
  
  ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â merle
  
  
  ÃƒÆ'Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â 
  Merle
  www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-21 Thread Merle Lester



 bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that to 
someone bowled over and in agony...merle


  
Merle,

I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, does 
not involve a disconnection with the body.  It involves a disconnection with 
the illusion of self and all dualism.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote:

 Merle,
 
 No, the body is not a restraint.  It is a gateway - at least as far as zen is 
 concerned.  The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of reality, 
 is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans but all 
 beings as we know them.
 
 ...Bill!
 
 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
 
  i know this is a little crazy..however here i go.. 
  
  the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber 
  space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm that 
  has me stumped!
  
  would this body less be liken to the meditation  state that can be achieved 
  once one has surpassed the breath counting saga?
  
   i have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the can 
  slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state
  
  in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing the mind 
  down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so to speak?
  
  after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the body that 
  we do not have any control over what so ever...
  
  (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing 
  regardless)...
  
  a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut
  
   my zen question is thus:  to be totally free ..the human body is it a 
  restraint?
  
   merle
  
  
   
  Merle
  www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-21 Thread Kristopher Grey




'Real' and 'delusion', are also 'classification'.

The Taoist symbol of Yin/Yang may appear to spin, but only if you're 
putting some spin on it.


KG



On 8/21/2013 9:43 PM, Bill! wrote:


The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha 
Nature. The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. 
Just as the experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 
'a red bird' is the delusion.


...Bill!

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-21 Thread Merle Lester



 have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle


  
Merle,

I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below.

The experience of feeling/touch is real.  That experience is Buddha Nature.  
The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion.  Just as the 
experience of sight is real.  The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the 
delusion.

...Bill! 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:

 
 
 Â bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling that 
 to someone bowled over and in agony...merle
 
 
 Â  
 Merle,
 
 I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, 
 does not involve a disconnection with the body.  It involves a disconnection 
 with the illusion of self and all dualism.
 
 ...Bill!
 
 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote:
 
  Merle,
  
  No, the body is not a restraint.  It is a gateway - at least as far as zen 
  is concerned.  The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness of 
  reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only humans 
  but all beings as we know them.
  
  ...Bill!
  
  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
  
   i know this is a little crazy..however here i go..Â 
   
   the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber 
   space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm 
   that has me stumped!
   
   would this body less be liken to the meditation Â state that can be 
   achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga?
   
   Â i have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation whereby the 
   can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non existent state
   
   in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing the 
   mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so to speak?
   
   after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the body 
   that we do not have any control over what so ever...
   
   (meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing 
   regardless)...
   
   a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut
   
   Â my zen question is thus: Â to be totally free ..the human body is it a 
   restraint?
   
   Â merle
   
   
   Â 
   Merle
   www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-21 Thread Merle Lester



 
 spinning top springs to mind...and it can topple when it stops...merle

'Real' and 'delusion', are also 'classification'.

The Taoist symbol of Yin/Yang may appear to spin, but only if
  you're putting some spin on it.

KG



On 8/21/2013 9:43 PM, Bill! wrote:

  
The experience of feeling/touch is real. That experience is Buddha Nature. The 
classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion. Just as the 
experience of sight is real. The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the 
delusion.

...Bill!

Re: [Zen] Re: the human body

2013-08-21 Thread siska_cen

Bill,

This is one of the reasons I like Zen Forum :)

Siska
-Original Message-
From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2013 05:03:32 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: the human body

Merle,

I have been in pain before.  When I am in pain I don't think of pain as a 
judgmental delusion, I think of it as pain and judge it to be bad; and maybe 
even think Poor, poor me!  Why do I have to suffer all this pain?  What did I 
do to deserve this?  I just want it to go away!.

...Bill!  

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:

 Â have you been in pain bill..and thought it was judgemental delusion?...merle

 Â  
 Merle,

 I don't know how you got from what I said earlier to your post below.

 The experience of feeling/touch is real.  That experience is Buddha Nature.  
 The classification of it as 'pain' is the judgmental delusion.  Just as the 
 experience of sight is real.  The classification of it as 'a red bird' is the 
 delusion.

 ...Bill! 

 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:

  Ã‚Â bill...i see...so if one is in pain..this is an illusion..try telling 
  that to someone bowled over and in agony...merle

  Ã‚Â  
  Merle,

  I also want to add that experiencing Buddha Nature, such as through zazen, 
  does not involve a disconnection with the body.  It involves a 
  disconnection with the illusion of self and all dualism.

  ...Bill!

  --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote:

   Merle,

   No, the body is not a restraint.  It is a gateway - at least as far as 
   zen is concerned.  The body, or at least its ability to afford awareness 
   of reality, is the necessary component of Buddha Nature for not only 
   humans but all beings as we know them.

   ...Bill!

   --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:

i know this is a little crazy..however here i go..Ã‚Â 

the human body..can we exist without it?...we do when we are in cyber 
space although we need the body to get the messages out there...mm 
that has me stumped!

would this body less be liken to the meditation Ã‚Â state that can be 
achieved once one has surpassed the breath counting saga?

Ã‚Â i have belief that monks can practise a form of meditation whereby 
the can slow the whole body/ mind totally down to an almost non 
existent state

in all the many previous post there has been much focus on slowing the 
mind down..however the body..does it have a mind of it's own so to 
speak?

after all there are millions of tiny organisms..rummaging in the body 
that we do not have any control over what so ever...

(meditate as long and hard as you want, they do their own thing 
regardless)...

a whole eco system...one could say a universe lies in the gut

Ã‚Â my zen question is thus: Ã‚Â to be totally free ..the human body is 
it a restraint?

Ã‚Â merle

Ã‚Â 
Merle
www.wix.com/merlewiitpom/1

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