OK, thanks Freddie, that's pretty clear.
Cheers,
Simon
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So are we all agreed then, that a vdev failure will cause pool loss ?
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I would just like to confirm or not whether a vdev failure would lead to
failure of the whole pool or not.
For example, if I created a pool from two RAID-Z2 vdevs, and three drives fail
within the first vdev, is all the data within the whole pool unrecoverable?
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OK, thanks Ian.
Another example:
Would you lose all pool data if you had two vdevs: (1) a RAID-Z2 vdev and (2) a
two drive mirror vdev, and three drives in the RAID-Z2 vdev failed?
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Hi all
I just discovered WD Black drives are rumored not to
be set to allow TLER.
Yep: http://opensolaris.org/jive/message.jspa?messageID=501159#501159
Enterprise drives will cost
about 60% more, and on a large install, that means a
lot of money...
True, sometimes more than twice the
Hi Cindy,
That sounds very reassuring.
Thanks a lot.
Simon
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Any ideas anyone?
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Currently I'm still using OpenSolaris b134 and I had used the 'aclmode'
property on my file systems. However, the aclmode property has been dropped
now:
http://arc.opensolaris.org/caselog/PSARC/2010/029/20100126_mark.shellenbaum
I'm wondering what will happen to the ACLs on these files and
Regarding vdevs and mixing WD Green drives with other drives, you might find it
interesting that WD itself does not recommend them for 'business critical' RAID
use - this quoted from the WD20EARS page here
(http://www.wdc.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=773):
i
Desktop / Consumer RAID
IIRC the currently available WD Caviar Black models no longer enable TLER to be
set. For WD drives, to have TLER capability you will need to buy their
enterprise models like REx models which cost mucho $$$.
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described problems with WD aren't okay for
non-critical
evelopment/backup/home use either.
Indeed. I don't use WD drives for RAID any longer.
The statement
from WD is nothing
but an attempt to upsell you, to differentiate the
market so they can
tap into the demand curve at multiple
Hi Euan,
You might find some of this useful:
http://breden.org.uk/2009/08/29/home-fileserver-mirrored-ssd-zfs-root-boot/
http://breden.org.uk/2009/08/30/home-fileserver-zfs-boot-pool-recovery/
I backed up the rpool to a single file which I believe is frowned upon, due to
the consequences of an
Hi Tom,
My input:
Create one file system per type of data to:
1. help organise your data logically
2. increase file system granularity which allows different file system
properties to be set per filesystem: such as copies, compression etc
3. allow separate shares to be easily setup: via CIFS
I ran smbios and for the memory-related section I saw the following:
IDSIZE TYPE
6415 SMB_TYPE_MEMARRAY (physical memory array)
Location: 3 (system board or motherboard)
Use: 3 (system memory)
ECC: 3 (none)
Number of Slots/Sockets: 4
Memory Error Data: Not Supported
Max
Thanks Miles, I'll take a look.
Cheers,
Simon
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That's a pity about smartmontools not working. Which controllers are you using?
Good news about no sleeping though, although perhaps not so economical.
I think I'd rather burn a bit more power and have drives that respond properly
than weird timeout issues some people seem to be experiencing
Sounds good.
I was taking a look at the 1TB Caviar Black drives which are WD1001FALS I think.
They seem to have superb user ratings and good reliability comments from many
people.
I consider these full fat drives as opposed to the LITE (green) drives, as
they spin at 7200 rpm instead of 5400
Hi Tonmaus,
they are the new revision.
OK.
I got the impression as well that the complaints you
reported were mainly related to embedded Linux
systems probably running LVM / mda. (thecus, Qnap,
) Other reports I had seen related to typical HW
raids. I don't think the situation is
Probably 6 in a RAID-Z2 vdev.
Cheers,
Simon
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My timeout issue is definitely the WD10EARS disks.
WD has chosen to cripple their consumer grade disks
when used in quantities greater than one.
I'll now need to evaluate alternative supplers of low
cost disks for low end high volume storage.
Mark.
typo ST32000542AS not NS
This was
Hi Tonmaus,
That's good to hear. Which revision are they: 00R6B0 or 00P8B0? It's marked on
the drive top.
From what I've seen elsewhere, people seem to be complaining about the newer
00P8B0 revision, so I'd be interested to hear from you. These revision numbers
are listed in the first post of
If I'm not mistaken then the WD2002FYPS is an enterprise model: WD RE4-GP (RAID
Edition, Green Power), so you almost certainly have the firmware that allows
(1) the idle time before spindown to be modified with WDIDLE3.EXE and (2) the
error reporting time to be modified with WDTLER.EXE.
So I
The thing that puts me off the 7K2000 is that it is a 5 platter model. The
latest 2TB drives use 4 x 500GB platters. A bit less noise, vibration and heat,
in theory :)
And the latest 1.5TB drives use only 3 x 500GB platters.
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IIRC the Black range are meant to be the 'performance' models and so are a bit
noisy. What's your opinion? And the 2TB models are not cheap either for a home
user. The 1TB seem a good price. And from what little I read, it seems you can
control the error reporting time with the WDTLER.EXE
Good to hear someone else confirming the greatness of this ION platform for an
HTPC. BTW, how do you keep all those drives quiet? Do you use a lot of silicone
grommets on the drive screws, or some other form of vibration damping?
Cheers,
Simon
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I have used OpenSolaris on the NAS and XBMC as the media player, and it works
greatl. See:
http://breden.org.uk/2008/03/08/home-fileserver-zfs-setup/ and
http://breden.org.uk/2009/05/10/home-fileserver-zfs-file-systems/ and
http://breden.org.uk/2009/06/20/home-fileserver-media-center/
For the
Same here, although I use a normal modded XBOX. I am
thinking of
switching to a Mac Mini w/ Plex soon (a friend's
setup is really
awesome) - I want more horsepower under the hood. The
XBOX is dated
now, and won't even play certain DVDs.
Yes, a modded XBOX will play a lot of things but will
Yep, you're right, the topic was media server build :)
Cheers,
Simon
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Are you using the latest IT mode firmware? (1.26.00 I think, listed above and
without checking mine using AOC-USAS-L8i which uses same controller)
Also, I noticed you're using 'EARS' series drives.
Again, I'm not sure if the WD10EARS drives suffer from a problem mentioned in
these posts, but it
Are you using the latest IT mode firmware? (1.26.00 I think, listed above and
without checking mine using AOC-USAS-L8i which uses same controller)
Also, I noticed you're using 'EARS' series drives.
Again, I'm not sure if the WD10EARS drives suffer from a problem mentioned in
these posts, but it
I don't have a lot of time to help here, but this post of mine might possibly
help with ACLs:
http://breden.org.uk/2009/05/10/home-fileserver-zfs-file-systems/
Cheers,
Simon
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If you choose the AOC-USAS-L8i controller route, don't worry too much about the
exotic looking nature of these SAS/SATA controllers. These controllers drive
SAS drives and also SATA drives. As you will be using SATA drives, you'll just
get cables that plug into the card. The card has 2 ports.
On 1/25/2010 6:23 PM, Simon Breden wrote:
By mixing randomly purchased drives of unknown
quality, people are
taking unnecessary chances. But often, they refuse
to see that,
thinking that all drives are the same and they will
all fail one day
anyway...
My use of the word random
On the subject of vibrations when using multiple drives in a case (tower), I'm
using silicone grommets on all the drive screws to isolate vibrations. This
does seem to greatly reduce the vibrations reaching the chassis, and makes the
machine a lot quieter, and so I would expect that this
Any comments on this Dec. 2005 study on disk failure
and error rates?
http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?i
d=64599
Will take a read...
The OP originally asked Best 1.5TB drives for
consumer RAID?. Despite
the entertainment value of the comments, it isn't
clear that this
Hi David,
I have the same motherboard and have been through this upgrade head-scratching
before with my system, so hopefully I can give some useful tips.
First of all, unless the situation has changed, forget trying to get the extra
2 SATA devices on the motherboard to work, as last time I
One of those EIDE ports is running the optical drive,
so I don't actually
have two free ports there even if I replaced the two
boot drives with IDE
drives.
Yep, as I expected.
I've given some though to booting from a thumb drive
instead of disks.
That would free up two SATA ports AND
We have the WDC WD15EADS-00P8B0 1.5 TB Caviar Green
drives.
Unfortunately, these drives have the fixed firmware
and the 8 second idle timeout cannot be changed.
Since we starting replacing these drives in our pool
about 6 weeks ago (replacing 1 drive per week), the
drives has registered
Good news. Are those the HD154UI models?
Cheers,
Simon
http://breden.org.uk/2008/03/02/a-home-fileserver-using-zfs/
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I've got at least one available 5.25 bay. I hadn't
considered 2.5 HDs;
that's a tempting way to get the physical space I
need.
Yes, it is an interesting option. But remember about any necessary cooling if
moving them from a currently cooled area. As I used SSDs this turned out to be
In general, any system which detects and acts upon
faults, would like
to detect faults sooner rather than later.
Yes, it makes sense. I think my main concern was about loss - in question 2.
2. Does having shorter error reporting times
provide any significant data safety through, for
Well, they'll be in a space designated as a drive
bay, so it should have
some airflow. I'll certainly check.
Yes, it's certainly worth checking.
It's an OCZ Core II, I believe. I've got an Intel -M
waiting to replace
it when I can find time (probably when I install
Windows 7).
AFAIK
this sounds convincing to fetishists of an ordered
world where
egg-laying mammals do not exist, but it's utter
rubbish.
Very insightful! :)
As drives go bad they return errors frequently, and...
Yep, so have good regular backups, and move quickly once probs start.
Cheers,
Simon
I got over the reluctance to do drive replacements in
larger batches
quite some time ago (well before there was zfs),
though I can
certainly sympathise.
Yep, it's not so much of a big deal. One has to think a moment to see what is
needed, check out any possible gotchas in order to carry out
Thank you for the effort Simon.
Thank you too Dusan, for creating this post that made me aware of this new card
-- it looks like a good one, and doesn't have the unnecessary RAID stuff
included :)
Good to know from the feedback in your thread that the mpt_sas(7d) driver is
actually
Thanks a lot.
I'd looked at SO many different RAID boxes and never had a good feeling about
them from the point of data safety, that when I read the 'A Conversation with
Jeff Bonwick and Bill Moore – The future of file systems' article
(http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1317400), I was
pI just took a look at customer feedback on this drive here. 36% rate with
one star, which I would consider alarming. Take a look here, ordered from
lowest rating to highest rating. Note the recency of the comments and the
descriptions:/p
a
In general I agree completely with what you are saying. Making reliable large
capacity drives does appear to have become very difficult for the drive
manufacturers, judging by the many sad comments from drive buyers listed on
popular, highly-trafficked sales outlets' websites, like newegg.
And
Reading through your post brought back many memories of how I used to manage my
data.
I also found SuperDuper and Carbon Copy Cloner great for making a duplicate of
my Mac's boot drive, which also contained my data.
After juggling around with cloning boot/data drives and using non-redundant
How does a previously highly rated drive that costed $100 suddenly become
substandard when it costs $100 ?
I can think of possible reasons, but they might not be printable here ;-)
Cheers,
Simon
http://breden.org.uk/2008/03/02/a-home-fileserver-using-zfs/
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Hey Dan,
Thanks for the reply.
Yes, I'd forgotten that it's often the heads that degrade -- something like
lubricant buildup, IIRC.
As well as SMART data, which I must admit to never looking at, presumably scrub
errors are also a good indication of looming trouble due to head problems etc?
As
Thanks for your reply Miles.
I think I understand your points, but unfortunately my historical knowledge of
the the need for TLER etc solutions is lacking.
How I've understood it to be (as generic as possible, but possibly inaccurate
as a result):
1. In simple non-RAID single drive 'desktop'
OK, gotcha.
Relating to my request for robustness feedback of the other driver, I was
referring in fact to the mpt_sas driver that James says is used for the
non-RAID LSI SAS2008-based cards like the SuperMicro AOC-USAS2-L8e (as opposed
to the RAID-capable AOC-USAS2-L8i LSI SAS 9211-8i cards,
Does anyone know if the current OpenSolaris mpt driver supports the recent LSI
SAS2008 controller?
This controller/ASIC is used in the next generation SAS-2 6Gbps PCIe cards from
LSI and SuperMicro etc, e.g.:
1. SuperMicro AOC-USAS2-L8e and the AOC-USAS2-L8i
2. LSI SAS 9211-8i
Cheers,
Simon
That looks promising.
As the main thing here is that OpenSolaris supports the LSI SAS2008 controller,
I have created a new post to ask for confirmation of driver support -- see here:
http://opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=122156tstart=0
Cheers,
Simon
Thanks a lot for the info James.
For the benefit of myself and others then:
1. mpt_sas driver is used for the SuperMicro AOC-USAS2-L8e
2. mr_sas driver is used for the SuperMicro AOC-USAS2-L8i and LSI SAS 9211-8i
And how does the maturity/robustness of the mpt_sas mr_sas drivers compare to
the
Correct. I only know the internal chip code names, not what the actual
shipping products are called :|
Now 'knew' ;-)
It's reassuring to hear your points a thru d regarding the development/test
cycle.
I could always use the 'try before you buy' approach: others try it, and if it
works, I
+1
I agree 100%
I have a website whose ZFS Home File Server articles are read around 1 million
times a year, and so far I have recommended Western Digital drives
wholeheartedly, as I have found them to work flawlessly within my RAID system
using ZFS.
With this recent action by Western
Ouch. Was that on the original 2009.06 vanilla install, or a later updated
build? Hopefully a lot of the original bugs have been fixed by now, or soon
will be.
Has anyone got any from the trenches experience of using the mpt_sas driver?
Any comments?
Cheers,
Simon
Thanks!
Yep, I was about to buy six or so WD15EADS or WD15EARS drives, but it looks
like I will not be ordering them now.
The bad news is that after looking at the Samsungs it too seems that they have
no way of changing the error reporting time in the 'desktop' drives. I hope I'm
wrong
Yes, this model looks to be interesting.
SuperMicro seem to have produced two models new models that satisfy the SATA
III requirements of 6Gbps per channel:
1. AOC-USAS2-L8e:
http://www.supermicro.com/products/accessories/addon/AOC-USAS2-L8i.cfm?TYP=E
2. AOC-USAS2-L8i:
I see also that Samsung have very recently released the HD203WI 2TB 4-platter
model.
It seems to have good customer ratings so far at newegg.com, but currently
there are only 13 reviews so it's a bit early to tell if it's reliable.
Has anyone tried this model with ZFS?
Cheers,
Simon
Hi Constantin,
It's good to hear your setup with the Samsung drives is working well. Which
model/revision are they?
My personal preference is to use drives of the same model revision.
However, in order to help ensure that the drives will perform reliably, I
prefer to do a fair amount of
Thanks. Newegg shows quite a good customer rating for that drive: 70% rated it
with 5 stars, and 11% with four stars, with 240 ratings.
Seems like some people have complained about them sleeping - presumable to save
power, although others report they don't, so I'll need to look into that more.
Which consumer-priced 1.5TB drives do people currently recommend?
I had zero read/write/checksum errors so far in 2 years with my trusty old
Western Digital WD7500AAKS drives, but now I want to upgrade to a new set of
drives that are big, reliable and cheap.
As of Jan 2010 it seems the price
Which drive model/revision number are you using?
I presume you are using the 4-platter version: WD15EADS-00R6B0, but perhaps I
am wrong.
Also did you run WDTLER.EXE on the drives first, to hasten error reporting
times?
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Hi Adam,
Thanks for the info on this. Some people, including myself, reported seeing
checksum errors within mirrors too. Is it considered that these checksum errors
within mirrors could also be related to this bug, or is there another bug
related to checksum errors within mirrors that I should
So what's the consensus on checksum errors appearing within mirror vdevs?
Is it caused the same bug announced by Adam, or is something else causing it?
If so, what's the bug id?
Cheers,
Simon
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OK, thanks Adam.
I'll look elsewhere for the mirror checksum error issue. In fact there's
already a response here, which I shall check up on:
http://opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=413169#413169
Thanks again, and I look forward to grabbing 124 soon.
Cheers,
Simon
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Thanks Gaëtan.
What's the bug id for this iommu bug on Intel platforms?
In my case, I have an AMD processor with ECC RAM, so probably not related to
the Intel iommu bug.
I'm seeing the checksum errors in a mirrored rpool using SSDs so maybe it could
be something like cosmic rays causing
I too see checksum errors ocurring for the first time using OpenSolaris 2009.06
on the /dev package repository at version snv_121.
I see the problem occur within a mirrored boot pool (rpool) using SSDs.
Hardware is AMD BE-2350 (ECC) processor with 4GB ECC memory on MCP55 chipset,
although SATA
Thanks Markus, I'll give that a try.
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Cheers Frank, I'll give it a try... also, doesn't sound good if the problem
goes back pre snv_100...
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Hi Richard, I just took at that link and it only mentions problems with RAID-Z
vdevs, but some people here, including myself, have checksum errors with
mirrors too, so maybe the link could be updated with this info?
Cheers,
Simon
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And in addition to which solaris version people are using, is it relevant which
ZFS level their pool is using?
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Yes, setting the Boot Environment repository URL to
http://pkg.opensolaris.org/dev/ worked.
My pool had been upgraded to ZFS version 16 previously using the dev repo.
'zpool get all tank' shows the ZFS version. But you can't use this command
unless the pool is imported, so when you encounter
BTW, if you're interested in seeing my attempts to migrate from a 160 GB IDE
drive-based root boot pool to a pair of mirrored 30 GB SSDs, then take a look
here:
http://breden.org.uk/2009/08/29/home-fileserver-mirrored-ssd-zfs-root-boot/
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I was using OpenSolaris 2009.06 on an IDE drive, and decided to reinstall onto
a mirror (smaller SSDs).
My data pool was a separate pool and before reinstalling onto the new SSDs I
exported the data pool.
After rebooting and installing OpenSolaris 2009.06 onto the first SSD I tried
to import
Some more info that might help:
I have the old IDE boot drive which I can reconnect if I get no help with this
problem. I just hope it will allow me to import the data pool, as this is not
guaranteed.
Way back, I was using SXCE and the pool was upgraded to the latest ZFS version
at the time.
Looks like my last IDE-based boot environment may have been pointing to the
/dev package repository, so that might explain how the data pool version got
ahead of the official 2009.06 one.
Will try to fix the problem by pointing the SSD-based BE towards the dev repo
and see if I get success.
Hi,
Does anyone know of a reliable 2 or 4 port SATA card with a solid driver, that
plugs into a PCIe slot, so that I can benefit from the high read speeds
available from adding a couple of SSDs to form my ZFS root/boot pool?
(Each SSD is capable of reading at around 150-200 MBytes/sec)
After
The situation regarding lack of open source drivers for these LSI
1068/1078-based cards is quite scary.
And did I understand you correctly when you say that these LSI 1068/1078
drivers write labels to drives, meaning you can't move drives from an LSI
controlled array to another arbitrary array
Miles, thanks for helping clear up the confusion surrounding this subject!
My decision is now as above: for my existing NAS to leave the pool as-is, and
seek a 2+ SATA port card for the 2-drive mirror for 2 x 30GB SATA boot SSDs
that I want to add.
For the next NAS build later on this summer,
I think the confusion is because the 1068 can do hardware RAID, it
can and does write its own labels, as well as reserve space for replacements
of disks with slightly different sizes. But that is only one mode of
operation.
So, it sounds like if I use a 1068-based device, and I *don't* want it
That sounds even better :)
So what's the procedure to create a zpool using the 1068?
Also, any special 'tricks /tips' / commands required for using a 1068-based
SAS/SATA device?
Simon
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OK, thanks James.
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Hi,
I have OpenSolaris 2009.06 currently installed on a 160 GB IDE drive.
I want to replace this with a 2-way mirror 30 GB SATA SSD boot setup.
I found these 2 threads which seem to answer some questions I had, but I still
have some questions.
Also, is anybody using the AOC-USAS-L8i?
If so, what's your experience of it, and identifying drives and replacing
failed drives with it?
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Lucky one there Ross!
Makes me glad I also upgraded to RAID-Z2 ;-)
Simon
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Hi Matt!
As kim0 says, that s/w PhotoRec looks like it might work, if it can work with
ZFS... would be interested to hear if it works.
Good luck,
Simon
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There are probably too many questions in my last post, so I will post the
questions as separate forum threads.
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Hi, I'm trying to find out which controller card people here recommend that can
drive 8 SATA hard drives and that would work with my Asus M2N-SLI Deluxe
motherboard, which has following expansion slots:
2 x PCI Express x16 slot at x16, x8 speed (PCIe)
The main requirements I have are:
- drive 8
After checking some more sources, it seems that if I used the AOC-SAT2-MV8 with
this motherboard, I would need to run it on the standard PCI slot. Here is the
full listing of the motherboard's expansion slots:
2 x PCI Express x16 slot at x16, x8 speed
2 x PCI Express x1
3 x PCI 2.2
Hey Kebabber, long time no hear! :)
It's great to hear that you've had good experiences with the card. It's a great
pity to have throughput drop from a potential 1GB/s to 150MB/s, but as most of
my use of the NAS is across the network, and not local intra-NAS transfers,
this should not be a
OK, my turn:
- combining file system + volume manager + RAID + pool + scrub + resilvering +
snapshots + rollback + end-to-end integrity + 256-but block checksums +
on-the-fly healing of blocks with checksum errors on read
- one liners that are mostly remembered, and simple to guess if forgotten
Great, thanks a lot Jeff.
Cheers,
Simon
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OK, thanks again Jeff.
Cheers,
Simon
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OK, that should work then, as my boot drive is currently an old IDE drive,
which I'm hoping to replace with a SATA SSD.
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Working on the assumption that you are going to be adding more drives to
your server, why not just add the new drives to the Supermicro
controller and keep the existing pool (well vdev) where it is?
That's not a bad idea. I just thought that the AOC-SAT2-MV8 has 2 more SATA
ports than my mobo
Hi,
I have a ZFS storage pool consisting of a single RAIDZ2 vdev of 6 drives, and I
have a question about replacing a failed drive, should it occur in future.
If a drive fails in this double-parity vdev, then am I correct in saying that I
would need to (1) unplug the old drive once I've
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