RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
It's not about either of you. You two were having a discussion about the difference between the law of Christ and the law of Moses. Ron's take seemed to be that the focus with Christ's plan was in forgiveness and repentance. Your take seemed to focus on the whole punishment aspect of the law of Moses. The part of the puzzle that I felt wasn't being discussed was that the punishments may not be punishments that God will be giving out personally, but rather punishments that natural consequences will be dealing out. Seeing the punishments in this way puts God as our defender and mentor rather than as some kind of a two-faced psycho out there telling us how much he loves us, but at the same time tossing out huge and cumbersome commandments for us to follow and happily tossing the disobedient into huge lakes of fire and brimstone. In my story, both of the fathers cared deeply for their children. But, because one of the sons was literally but unknowingly on his death bed, the urgency of it all demanded that his father resort to drastic measures to save him. What the father did may have looked overly harsh, but compared with an early death, it wasn't. At the very least, what the father did gave his son more time. I don't condone physical abuse of children. It was just for the sake of the allegory. The law of Moses was very definitely unpleasant and I couldn't think of a different way to portray it in the story. I didn't quite get it either. Are Ron and I the grimy kids, or the fathers in this story? And if so, would Ron be the kind-hearted father? I don't recall ever striking my kids like the first father, so I know it doesn't apply to me, however I also wasn't so neglectful as he was to just say a few words and then walk off. My kids cleaned their rooms because it was expected of them, and if they didn't do it, they were punished (groundings, etc). I see God doing the same thing. Yes, occasionally our actions create their own illness/punishment, but on many occasions, God brings his wrath down upon his children. If you don't believe it, just read the scriptures. As it is, the 2nd Coming is described as the Lord coming in red clothing to stomp the grapes of the vineyard with a fury. Yet, there is also a softer side to God, as he patiently works with each of us--as long as we are willing to be worked upon. So, portraying God as either a harsh taskmaster on the one hand or as a milquetoast on the other is to paint God as being two dimensional. He isn't either of these, yet is both of them. And as I raised my children, I used both methods. And as I work with those around me, I use both methods as necessary. I don't just sigh and lecture from the bedroom door. I step into the room, offer to help clean things up, and insist that it is cleaned. Gary Smith -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
First, the father should be the same individual for both children. The difference being one child is willing to live a higher law, with the other needing to be prodded along. Ok. I agree. Although my guess is that that will make the story a little more bewildering. I didn't focus on the Law of Moses. I focused on eternal laws of God. You'll note that I not only quoted from the Old Testament, but also from the DC, which clearly is not Mosaic in nature. When Christ tells us in DC 19 to repent or suffer even as he did, regardless of whether the punishment is a natural cause or not, Christ set the bar. Repentance is a requirement of the Celestial Kingdom, and so is a requirement of Celestial Law. Seemingly, there is more mercy in the law of Christ than in the Mosaic Law. But this is only true on physical punishment. Spiritually, the requirements for Celestial glory is much higher than that for the Terrestrial (Mosaic Law) glory. So, to pretend that there are two fathers, when in reality there is one, doesn't work. Second, it is a matter of God giving a lower law to children who aren't ready to live the higher law. Of your own children, what is the age limit you give to drive a car? Are some allowed to stay up later than others? How about dating age? You see, even we give differing rules to our own children, based upon age and maturity. So also does God. While our smallest children may not understand the nuances of a lecture, they will understand physical disciplining, even if it is to stand them in a corner or timeout. Meanwhile, a more mature child may get enough out of just a discussion or request. We adjust the rules and how we mete them out according to maturity, ability and willingness to live them. With these as guidelines, I'd change your parable to one father of two boys. One boy is rather mature, while the other is childish. One requires a stern hand (not necessarily a swipe against the face), while the other follows closely the guidance given. The Father does show love to both children, and reminds them of it continually (even as the Lord told ancient Israel constantly through Isaiah and others). The younger child eventually learns from the chastising that there is a better way - obeying out of love, rather than fear. Ok. Gary Smith Jonathan Scott wrote: It's not about either of you. You two were having a discussion about the difference between the law of Christ and the law of Moses. Ron's take seemed to be that the focus with Christ's plan was in forgiveness and repentance. Your take seemed to focus on the whole punishment aspect of the law of Moses. The part of the puzzle that I felt wasn't being discussed was that the punishments may not be punishments that God will be giving out personally, but rather punishments that natural consequences will be dealing out. Seeing the punishments in this way puts God as our defender and mentor rather than as some kind of a two-faced psycho out there telling us how much he loves us, but at the same time tossing out huge and cumbersome commandments for us to follow and happily tossing the disobedient into huge lakes of fire and brimstone. In my story, both of the fathers cared deeply for their children. But, because one of the sons was literally but unknowingly on his death bed, the urgency of it all demanded that his father resort to drastic measures to save him. What the father did may have looked overly harsh, but compared with an early death, it wasn't. At the very least, what the father did gave his son more time. I don't condone physical abuse of children. It was just for the sake of the allegory. The law of Moses was very definitely unpleasant and I couldn't think of a different way to portray it in the story. I didn't quite get it either. Are Ron and I the grimy kids, or the fathers in this story? And if so, would Ron be the kind-hearted father? I don't recall ever striking my kids like the first father, so I know it doesn't apply to me, however I also wasn't so neglectful as he was to just say a few words and then walk off. My kids cleaned their rooms because it was expected of them, and if they didn't do it, they were punished (groundings, etc). I see God doing the same thing. Yes, occasionally our actions create their own illness/punishment, but on many occasions, God brings his wrath down upon his children. If you don't believe it, just read the scriptures. As it is, the 2nd Coming is described as the Lord coming in red clothing to stomp the grapes of the vineyard with a fury. Yet, there is also a softer side to God, as he patiently works with each of us--as long as we are willing to be worked upon. So, portraying God as either a harsh taskmaster on the one hand or as a milquetoast on the other is to paint God as being two dimensional. He isn't either of these, yet is both of them. And as I raised my children, I used both methods. And as I work with those around me
[ZION] Maybe I and Ron are wrong.
2 Nephi 23:9 9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate; and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 2 Nephi 23:11 11 And I will punish the world for evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay down the haughtiness of the terrible. 2 Nephi 23:17 17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver and gold, nor shall they delight in it. Mede: one of an Indo-European people, related to the Persians, who entered northeastern Iran probably as early as the 17th century BC and settled in the plateau land that came to be known as Media (q.v.). Britannica CD 98 Standard Edition ©1994-1998 by Encyclopaedia Britannica, Inc. 2 Nephi 23:19 19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. 2 Nephi 23:22 22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces; and her time is near to come, and her day shall not be prolonged. For I will destroy her speedily; yea, for I will be merciful unto my people, but the wicked shall perish. -- Jonathan Scott -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Grimy Teeth ©2004 by Jonathan Scott Once upon a time there were two boys and they were the best of friends. Unfortunately for both though, they were both about as lazy as they could be. They would wake each morning from under their two piles of never washed blankets to stand in the middles of their never cleaned rooms to look out the grimy panes of their never washed windows to see the clutter that filled their never tended yards. And they were each happy. The disgust of their environment apparently did not disgust them. And each of them lived their lives contentedly amidst the grime, the roaches and the disease. One day, one boy's father saw his son desperately coughing as he lay contentedly upon his gray and sickly bed and the father knew that his son would soon become even more sick and possibly die. He knew that if the boy did not clean his world now that he might not live much longer. And so, out of fear for his son's well being, the father began to yell and scream at him. HOW CAN YOU LIVE LIKE THIS? he yelled. ANIMALS ARE MORE KEMPT! YOU SHAME ME WITH YOUR LAZINESS! he screamed. The father then picked up his hand and struck the boy across his face and the boy fell to the ground in tears. The father then stood over the boy and threatened to strike him again if he did not change his ways. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. spoke the boy in absolute fear through his gray and grimy teeth. CLEAN THIS ROOM AND THIS WORLD NOW OR WHEN I RETURN I SHALL BEAT YOU TO PIECES! yelled and screamed the father. The father then stood and left the room...leaving the boy to sit on the ground sick with fear. And so, the boy stood and began to clean. He was afraid. On that same day, the other's boy's father came to his room to see the filth and grime and disease of his son. He also was amazed at the extent of the grime. But, because the son was yet healthy and not yet in danger, he knew that he could take his time to teach the boy. Son, this is not good. You cannot live this way. If you continue to live like this, you will catch some sort of disease and you might die. Son, I love you. Please stand up and clean. OK father. said the boy through grimy teeth. He then rolled over in his gray and stained bed and went back to sleep. The father was sad, but chose to let the boy choose his own life. He kicked aside the empty cans and cereal boxes and made his way to the door of the bedroom. The next day, the father returned to see the boy still in bed. On the boy's face there was a rash. And when the father entered, the boy seemed to not be able to lay comfortably amidst the garbage. His body seemed to be in pain. Son, the pain that you are feeling and that rash that is on your face both come from the garbage that you live amongst. If you clean, your body will heal. Please clean. I love you. The son, understanding somewhat the message of his father stood from his bed and began to clean. The father smiled and left. The first boy managed to clean his room before his father returned and therefore wasn't beaten to pieces by him. As you can probably guess, that boy never loved his father. He was too afraid of him to love him. And so he lived the rest of his days in fear. He was never very happy. And he was never grateful for the health and long life that his father had given him. The second boy struggled with cleaning his entire days. After years of filth, sickness, and inconvenience though, the boy began to understand and to change. The boy eventually learned to clean of his own free will and loved his father for having cared enough about him to teach him. He had health and a long life and loved his father till the end of his days. -Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 12:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Vote Now! That's a cop out. A touchy, feely, liberal cop out. You either need to defend your position, or give ground. Oh phooey. You're itching for a fight and I'm not going to give you one, no matter what names you call me or how you twist my words. As I noted earlier, I emphasize the teaching instructions from Christ; you emphasize the repentance message. Both lead to the same end. I just happen to think my way is more productive. You're entitled to do as you will. Have a good time. I'd argue that teaching effectively always provokes repentance whereas crying repentance from the rooftops does not always provoke learning and true repentance. By the way, the last thing Christ did on this earth was forgive. Ron Scott The Bible is VERY clear that Christ preached repentance. In Matthew 4:17, it tells us that From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. This is literally the first thing he did after baptism and his 40 day fast. What was the last thing Jesus did? He stood with his
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Well put, Sandy. To me -- others will surely differ -- the divinely-inspired U.S. Constitution is the guide for how we should deal with such matters. In asserting that the Constitution is divinely inspired, God suggests that that equality, rule of law, and freedom to worship and choose right from wrong are paramount. The Constitution does not -- need not -- endorse evil doing per se, but it should continue to give us the right to choose for ourselves and, within reason, make shades of gray assessments as society correctly or incorrectly (ultimately) deems appropriate. If God intended that we should be compelled to behave ourselves, a different cast of characters would have emerged victorious in the pre-existence. We don't have to make sure the constitution is doing anything. There's no should involved in it whatsoever. That's the beauty of it. It takes care of itself. We can vote however we want to vote. If we want to be a bunch of bigoted fools we can. And the laws we get from our bigotry will hurt us until we get them off of the books. The constitution gives us the mechanism by which we can do whatever we want to do with some order. It insures that the people be the ones to choose...be it for good or evil. The constitution though requires that the people that are doing the voting be mostly righteous...or at least righteous enough. If the people aren't and the laws that get created are too bad, the entire government structure may fall apart. It's kind of what we're seeing now with abortion and gay marriage. I actually agree with you as to what you wrote. It's how we apply these things to society as a whole that's part of what I'm wrestling with. I think God intends us to wrestle a lot. It seems define what this life is all about. RBS 3 Nephi 6:5 5 And now there was nothing in all the land to hinder the people from prospering continually, except they should fall into transgression. 3 Nephi 6:15 - 17 15 Now the cause of this iniquity of the people was this--Satan had great power, unto the stirring up of the people to do all manner of iniquity, and to the puffing them up with pride, tempting them to seek for power, and authority, and riches, and the vain things of the world. 16 And thus Satan did lead away the hearts of the people to do all manner of iniquity; therefore they had enjoyed peace but a few years. 17 And thus, in the commencement of the thirtieth year--the people having been delivered up for the space of a long time to be carried about by the temptations of the devil whithersoever he desired to carry them, and to do whatsoever iniquity he desired they should--and thus in the commencement of this, the thirtieth year, they were in a state of awful wickedness. 18 Now they did not sin ignorantly, for they knew the will of God concerning them, for it had been taught unto them; therefore they did wilfully rebel against God. 3 Nephi 6:30 30 And they did set at defiance the law and the rights of their country; and they did covenant one with another to destroy the governor, and to establish a king over the land, that the land should no more be at liberty but should be subject unto kings. 3 Nephi 7:6 6 And the regulations of the government were destroyed, because of the secret combination of the friends and kindreds of those who murdered the prophets. 3 Nephi 7:8 - 10 8 And thus six years had not passed away since the more part of the people had turned from their righteousness, like the dog to his vomit, or like the sow to her wallowing in the mire. 9 Now this secret combination, which had brought so great iniquity upon the people, did gather themselves together, and did place at their head a man whom they did call Jacob; 10 And they did call him their king; therefore he became a king over this wicked band; and he was one of the chiefest who had given his voice against the prophets who testified of Jesus. That's all it takes guys...36 verses. Peace to war. Prosperity to ruin. 6 years...36 verses. -- Jonathan Scott -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Vote Now!
Sorry had to teach a class. Ron Scott wrote: I'm lousy at parables. Please explain. Here's my interpretation. I hope that I am not too far off the mark. 1) The filth represents sin, generally, through the individual choices of the children involved. The effects of the filth represents the effects of sin. Yup. 2) The children represent ourselves. Yup. 3) To be cleansed represents repentance by way of the Gospel. Yes. 4) The first father represents an unrighteous plan to bring people to repentance, namely: The use of force, coercion, and fear. Almost. I was using him to represent the law of Moses. The people way back then were so close to death each and every day of their lives (lack of civilization...lack of good government) that it was imperative that they obey the gospel...right now. If they had been as lax in obeying the gospel as people are today, civilization itself might never have gotten off the ground. (My opinion.) Perhaps they needed an iron hand. (If you ever get the opportunity, read Little House on the Prairie. Back then, the gospel was vital to your existence...literally.) 5) The second father represents a righteous plan to bring people to repentance. Applicable scriptures: DC 121:44-46, and Moses 4:1-2. Charity and long-suffering would appear to be key. The second father represents the higher law that Christ brought. The civilization was formed. The laws existed and society was to some dependable extent obeying them. 6) The second son genuinely repents because he realizes he needs to change, then takes action accordingly. The first son only takes action so as to APPEAR outwardly to repent. Inwardly, that person doesn't yet see the need to change. Because the second father shows love for his children, the boy is not afraid...and therefore can work on his salvation for no other reason than for his own sake. He was truly working out his own salvation. 7) Thus, the second son is on his way to salvation. The first son's spiritual status remains in question. Right. Who know how the boy will change once the father is gone. * * * Still, having laws on the books doesn't mean that we seek to compel people to do right, but rather, there is an overriding interest to regulate certain things to allow society as a whole to operate in a free and righteous manner. If there were no laws, or if laws ratified or encouraged immoral acts, I submit that it becomes significantly more difficult for either father to teach his son about repentance. All the best, /Sandy/ Still keeping all of that mind. The fathers were never the ones giving out the diseases. Consequence did that. Both fathers cared for the welfare of their children. One just cared for it in a way that was preferable to the other. The fathers used two very different methods to keep their children safe. It's not a perfect analogy. In the first analogy, the father, if he loved the child, would have cleaned the room for him. Sorry, it was the best I could come up with. -- The Rabinowitz Family -- http://www.firstnephi.com Spring Hill, Tennessee -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Why the Iraqis Didn't Destroy Saddam (was: Vote Now!)
Watch The Patriot some time. The battles they had in that war were fought by two sides who had access to very similar weaponry. Things have changed a lot since then. Governments have access to stuff that is much more advanced than what the people have. The Iraqis didn't stand a chance of challenging Hussein. They had to be helped. Of course, this opens up the whole topic of the US and what we would have to go through if the US were to ever become a blood thirsty dictatorship. How could we defend ourselves against the US army if it ever came to it. I don't think we could. I think we would just simply lose. Maybe the second amendment is more important than we realize. No, the current crop of Iraqis didn't rise and destroy Saddam because the brave ones who tried that more than a decade ago (when they thought we were going to continue all the way into Baghdad) were slaughtered. *jeep! ---Chet If ya thinks ya is right, ya deserfs credit - even if ya is wrong. --Gus Segar via Popeye - Original Message - From: Son of John W. Redelfs Why didn't the Iraqis rise and destroy Saddam of their own accord? Because as a people, they were willing to resign themselves to his rule. They have been resigning themselves to autocrats for a long, long time. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Vote Now!
Same-sex marriage will become legal in all or most of the United States over the next five years. A. Certainly B. Likely C. Maybe D. Unlikely E. Certainly not B. Likely -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Vote Now!
The USA and her allies will successfully establish democratic rule in Iraq. A. Certainly B. Probably C. Maybe D. Unlikely E. Certainly not If Bush gets a second term...then, B. Probably. If Bush doesn't, then, D. Unlikely, and all the while the dems will blame Bush for it. -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Vote Now!
Mankind will establish permanent space colonies by the end of the century. A. Certainly B. Likely C. Maybe D. Unlikely E. Certainly not D. Unlikely -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Vote Now!
Gays and lesbians should stay in the closet. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Undecided D. Disagree E. Strongly Disagree You need one more option. F. I don't care. The closest to it is C. Undecided I guess. -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] My Five Favorite Fantasies
What will the future bring? These are my five favorite fantasies: 1. Affordable, effective and safe treatment for clinical depression. 2. Affordable, effective and safe treatment for obesity. 3. Hearing aid-like personal computers with voice recognition and always on wireless access to the Internet. 4. Practical generation of power by fusion. 5. Affordable, safe vacations in space. What will the future bring? Angst. War. Death. The Savior. And then more of the beautiful stuff that you mentioned above than we could ever imagine. The meek shall inherit the earth. -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
[ZION] Fwd: Please Help Defend Marriage
the actions of our UN delegations, it will make a difference as it has on past issues. But, without the president's specific direction to them, the U.S. delegation may not make the defeat of these provisions a high enough priority. 2. E-mail the heads of the UN missions of the 53 countries that are members of the Human Rights Commission. Again, we have created a feature on our Web site that provides a simple message to e-mail them allows you to send it to all 53 of these UN missions with just the click of your mouse. http://www.unitedfamilies.org/geneva_alert.cfmClick here. Some of these countries are not accustomed to having citizen input on these issues and if enough of us e-mail them it is guaranteed to get their attention. Thank you in advance for taking the time to make your voice heard on this issue! Sincerely, Sharon Slater President, United Families International Important Note: UFI is one of the most effective organizations in the world fighting to defend marriage and the family at the UN and in other international forums. But the increased international activity we are now seeing, along with our stepped up efforts to defend marriage and the family in Canada and the U.S., are seriously straining our budget. Our effectiveness is completely dependent on the financial support of people like you. Please support our efforts by going to https://www425.ssldomain.com/unitedfamilies/contribute.aspour website and making an https://www425.ssldomain.com/unitedfamilies/contribute.asponline contribution or print out our mail in contribution form. If you have not become an official member of UFI we would also invite you to do so by http://www.unitedfamilies.org/become_a_member.aspclicking here. You can help in this effort even more by forwarding this alert on to others! Thank you for your help! UNITED FAMILIES INTERNATIONAL PO Box 2630 Gilbert, Arizona 85299-2630 Phone: (480) 507-2664 Fax: (480) 545-8382 Web site: http://www.unitedfamilies.orgwww.unitedfamilies.org E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] -- align=left Jonathan Scott -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Musical Instruments Survey
I can play the radio and, upon certain occasions when I'm particularly skillful, the cassette player. I'm taking lessons to play these CD things... *jeep! ---Chet (Who admires anyone who plays the violin, even poorly. Does this make you a permanent 39 years old?) If ya thinks ya is right, ya deserfs credit - even if ya is wrong. --Gus Segar via Popeye Ditto. Although I did use to be a DJ (radio) for a short amount of time. I'm not much with an actual instrument though. My hats off to anyone who can. -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Gas pains (long)
$26566.10 81% 2000$23363.08 $24885.32 76% 2004$26888.68 $26888.68 82% Average Football Player Salary Actual Cost Adj. 2004$ As a % of 1950 -- --- -- -- 1950$15000.00 $177358.49 100% 1955$16000.00 $145736.43 82% 1960$17000.00 $132724.25 74% 1965$2.00 $127457.63 71% 1970$23000.00 $112311.69 63% 1975$39600.00 $135360.00 76% 1980$78700.00 $187797.17 105% 1985$244800.00 $484446.32 273% 1990$395400.00 $629959.32 355% 1995$716600.00 $969214.39 546% 2000$1116100.00 $1188820.40 670% 2004$125.00 $125.00 704% Dear Jim, Supply would be greater without the Iraq invasion, so prices would be lower. Supply/demand would force prices lower. It is also not the end of the world if we have to just do without cars. We existed before they were here, we will exist when they are gone. Peace and all good, John A.E., n/OEF -Original Message- From: Jim Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 9:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Gas pains Gas prices have now reached record high levels in the US. Over $2 per gallon in some areas. Isn't it a good thing we mounted such an effective imperialistic war against the Iraqis, just so we could steal away their oil? I can imagine what the prices would be otherwise. -- Jonathan Scott -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
[ZION] Average US salary since 1950
Howdy, How do I find it? Also, where can I find data on average retail prices for stuff like bread and eggs since 1950? I've been looking here: http://www.bls.gov/cpi/ ...and I found some...but getting anything seems like pulling a tooth. They have so much info that to find one particular price for one thing since 1950 is like almost impossible. If I was in America, I would just go the newspaper and look through the archives at the ads. Any ideas? -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Help Me Please - Ignore as Usual
Jonathan: I guess I'm confused as to what you intend to do with the pieces you're writing? Do you imagine this as something you'd like to get published? Are you writing a thesis of some kind? Are you writing for your own purposes only? For instance, you claim the rising divorce rate is the result of women entering the job market, becoming self-sufficient economically. Yet, you present no evidence (other than opinions) to bolster your argument. If you want to convince someone you've got to provide good backup data from objective sources. RBS I listed sources. My opinion was one paragraph. My sources took up the remainder of it. -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Gay art exhibit
Would SLCC allow a display of photos/art depicting homosexuals on their knees attempting to repent of their sin? It would definitely promote discussion, wouldn't it? I'm willing to do a pictorial expose of gays burning in hell, repenting on their knees before Christ, etc; if SLCC is willing to put them on display. Anyone know anyone at SLCC who would be interested in such an idea? Gays might find it offensive, but not more so than depicting LDS missionaries in a homosexual encounter. Gary Smith Funny. You know you're right. The show you're suggesting would draw more ire than showing gay missionaries. -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Gay marriage is wrong
RB Scott wrote: Then there are economic issues to be considered. For instance: suppose two good friends, both widowed mothers of minor children decided their chances for remarriage were nil. Yet, in the interest of keeping their families out the poorhouse, to eliminate the need to leave children unsupervised for long periods of time, etc., etc., etc. concluded that the solution was to form legal domestic partnership that provided all the health insurance and tax benefits that accrue to married couples. Money, a more stable family set-up, not sex, are the drivers. Would we argue that such women are not entitled to form such a union? And, if so, what would be the basis for our objections? Might precisely this kind of arrangement be one way society could help get single-parent families on more stable ground. Oh, come on. Who is doing that? Show me an example of someone who is doing that? Even if you can find one, it is an anomaly. Should we then change our marriage laws throughout the union to encourage this kind of arrangement just for a few freaky exceptions? --JWR Once marriage becomes meaningless, they will begin to do that. Wanna hear something even more creepy? How about if a man and a corporation chose to become married? What about two corporations? What would be the ramifications of something like that? What if a man with a child married a corporation and then the man died? Would the corporation gain custody of the child? What kind of hellish things could happen as a result of that? -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Help Me Please - Ignore as Usual
-Original Message- From: Jonathan Scott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 5:16 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Help Me Please - Ignore as Usual Jonathan: I guess I'm confused as to what you intend to do with the pieces you're writing? Do you imagine this as something you'd like to get published? Are you writing a thesis of some kind? Are you writing for your own purposes only? For instance, you claim the rising divorce rate is the result of women entering the job market, becoming self-sufficient economically. Yet, you present no evidence (other than opinions) to bolster your argument. If you want to convince someone you've got to provide good backup data from objective sources. RBS I listed sources. My opinion was one paragraph. My sources took up the remainder of it. You didn't describe your purpose. While your footnotes may support what you claim -- as I recall you provide a bibliography, not traditional footnotes -- it requires the reader to assume you've interpreted the source material correctly and that the source material supports what you say. I think it's wiser, more compelling, to provide a summary quote or two with an appropriate footnote. RBS Please read my stuff more carefully. Most of it is quotes with a link to the home page below it. My commentaries, I make them as small as possible. -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Gay marriage is wrong
I respect your opinion John, even though I disagree with it to the extent that it would be practically impossible to come up with a definition of traditional family that would pass muster. For instance, I can no imagine that the church would exclude single parent families (widowed and divorced) from the definition. Well...one thing about President Bush's proposed Constitutional amendment is that basically it doesn't try to define marriage. Instead, it demands that no one other than nature itself define it. -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
[ZION] Good Barbara Bush Quote
Clinton lied. A man might forget where he parks or where he lives, but he never forgets oral sex, no matter how bad it is. - Barbara Bush -- Jonathan Scott -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Gay marriage is wrong
-Original Message- From: Jonathan Scott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 7:16 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Gay marriage is wrong I respect your opinion John, even though I disagree with it to the extent that it would be practically impossible to come up with a definition of traditional family that would pass muster. For instance, I can no imagine that the church would exclude single parent families (widowed and divorced) from the definition. Well...one thing about President Bush's proposed Constitutional amendment is that basically it doesn't try to define marriage. Instead, it demands that no one other than nature itself define it. Huh? It defines marriage as a institution between one man and one woman. RBS Correct. -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
RE: [ZION] Gay Marriage Quicksand
John wrote: You can all move to Alaska. We already have such an amendment in our Constitution. --JWR Harold replies: Or, you can move to California. We have such an amendment too. :) This is too funny... :) -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
[ZION] Another Good Quote
People who cannot recognize a palpable absurdity are very much in the way of civilization. - Agnes Repplier -- Jonathan Scott -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Cause for rejoicing
Yesterday, I given reasons to rejoice. They are: (1)I saw the first daffodils of the year...spring (and my seasonal sinus problems) can't be too far off! (2)...and this is the MOST important: My sister (the one in Boston) and her boyfriend have announced plans to marry in August in the Washington DC Temple. If that isn't happy news, I don't know what is. This is the sister who, a few years ago, turned down a marriage proposal from a young man who could not take her to the temple. That took courage, in my opinion. It is the best thing - but not the easiest - to remain single rather than to marry outside the temple. She had faith that she would eventually find someone who could take her to the temple. Her fiance is someone she has known since the both of them were 12 years old, and his family was in another ward in our stake (I knew some of his older siblings). They were friends at BYU and ran in the same circle of friends, and things turned romantic in the last year and a half or so for them. It's been a long distance romance - her in Boston, him in SLC - and I'm not sure yet that they've worked out who will move where, but, as I told her recently, you find the right person, marry in the right place and the other stuff will just work out. Anyway, I just wanted to share my excitement! Gotta run! Heidi the fair Heidi Page [EMAIL PROTECTED] Coll. My congrats. -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Help Me Please - Ignore as Usual
Howdy, My next chapters will be dealing with all the new sources of poverty that have shown up since the sixties...or before. I need information on corporations and on how they are making more money than before at the cost of employees salaries...perhaps also a chapter on jobs going overseas. Can any of you think of any other of major sources of poverty since 1960? Credit cards? Anything... Ron...the filter is off. I'd appreciate your input as well. Be rude again and the filter goes right back up though. I doubt you care, but nonetheless, I'm listening again. -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
Re: [ZION] Help Me Please - Ignore as Usual
At 07:25 PM 3/9/2004, Bill wrote: She's single and IMHO a knock-out beauty. She has, however, been going steady with a non-member for some eight years now. She has sworn she would not marry outside the temple, but I see no signs of either marriage or her dumping him. Her older sister's opinion is she's just gotten comfortable and doesn't want to re-enter the dating scene, but then, Older Sister has an opinion on most everything. Yer boy TR eligible or card-carrying? RM? Yes to both. Hmm. What is a golddigger called if it's a man? :) -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit: http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER --^
[ZION] Am I wasting my time?
Hello, I've noticed that you all don't seem too interested in the things that I'm writing. Could you please tell me why that is? Is it that you disagree? Is it that you don't care? Is it that you're too busy to read my posts? I'm putting a lot of time into this, and I really could use the help (feedback). P.S. the answer to the riddle was nothing. -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] An Answer to the World - Chapter 5 (Feminism)
Feedback Please - - - - - - - - - - 5. Feminism, Women in the Workplace, and the Poverty It Created A liberated woman is one who has sex before marriage and a job after. - Gloria Steinheim The Princeton Language Institute. 21st Century Dictionary of Quotations. New York, Bantam Doubleday Dell, 1993 Married Women Entering the Workplace Reduced the Spending Power of All Salaries Year194019502003 --- Men that Worked 39,496,563 40,174,705 77,714,187 Women that Worked 12,654,256 15,559,454 66,341,379 Number of Workers 52,150,819 55,734,159 144,055,566 Total Population130,962,661 149,895,183 291,500,000 # people per income 2.512.692.02 Avg. Salary $1,299 $2,992 $34,280 --- Spending Power Adjusted for 1940 - - - $2,791 $42,595 Spending Power Adjusted for 1950 $1,392 - - - $45,650 Spending Power Adjusted for 2003 $1,045 $2,246 - - - --- If there were the same ratio of workers to non-workers in the US today as there was back in 1950, the spending power of the average annual salary in the US would increase by over $10,000 a year. Due to the change in ratio of workers to non-workers in the US since 1950, the average value of salaries has decreased substantially. Married Women Entering the Workplace Widened the Disparity in Salaries The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. - Proverb Women in 1960 made roughly 59% of what men made. Today they make roughly 79%. This sounds better but still bad. But, only when one does not realize that all women work today...even the married ones. SINGLE FATHER HOUSEHOLD - Then (1960) - Family Single Parent - Father = 100% salarySingle Father = 100% salary Mother = No salary - Disparity = 0% SINGLE MOTHER HOUSEHOLD - Then (1960) - Family Single Parent - Man = 100% salary Single Mother = 59% salary Woman = No salary - Disparity = 41% SINGLE FATHER HOUSEHOLD - Now (2004) - Family Single Parent - Father = 100% salarySingle Father = 100% salary Mother = 79% salary - Disparity = 44% SINGLE MOTHER HOUSEHOLD - Now (2004) - Family Single Parent - Man = 100% salary Single Mother = 79% salary Woman = 79% salary - Disparity = 56% It was once bad for women to make only 59% of what men make. It is even worse now when single mothers make only 41% of the average two income household. Putting this in terms of dollars (Assuming a $20,000 salary for the men in each instance). Income Type 19602003 Family Income $20,000 (100%) $35,800 (100%) Single Father $20,000 (100%) $20,000 (56%) Single Mother $11,800 (59%) $15,800 (44%) Sources http://www.fiftiesweb.com/pop/info-family.htm http://www.prb.org/Content/NavigationMenu/PRB/PRB_Home.htm http://fisher.lib.virginia.edu/collections/stats/histcensus/ http://kclibrary.nhmccd.edu/decade40.html http://www.wtv-zone.com/moe/moesboomerabilia/page35.html The Princeton Language Institute. 21st Century Dictionary of Quotations. New York, Bantam Doubleday Dell, 1993 -- Jonathan Scott -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] LA Times has banned the use of the term Pro-Life in its paper
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storycid=573ncid=757e=4u=/nm/20040305/od_nm/media_opera_dc -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] An Answer to the World - Chapter 3
who had not yet entered the Vietnam war might have received was very different than the honor that a veteran from WWII had received. WWII was widely accepted as an honorable war; a war in which a person could be proud to have served. The Vietnam war though was not widely accepted thus making the perceived value of the honor of serving in it much less. The freedom that a person would have received from being a member of the countercultural movement would have felt like true freedom from the beginning for a short time, until the consequences of unwise decisions began to build up thereby reducing said freedom. The important aspect of it though, is that it felt like true freedom to begin with and was much more enticing than the lukewarm honor that was available even though the end result of this freedom was much less than actual freedom. The shame that a preson would have felt by not entering into the war would have not felt much like shame due to the overwhelming numbers of individuals who were arguing that the war itself was wrong. The Intellectual Superiority that was felt (lines 11-13 and 39-40 of the above poem Flowers) was based on a new social structure that many today consider faulty due to its lack of attention and responsibility in the areas of sex, drugs and financial responsibility. At the time though, the new social structure seemed better due to its lack of immediate hurtful consequences and its mass of pleasureable new freedoms. At the time, to youths, the lifestyle seemed superior and those who participated in it therefore felt pride. The Vietnam War appears to have been the main source of movement away from the Judeo/Christian social/taboo structure of America in the 1960s. Youths simply were unwilling to die for a cause that they felt was unjustified, and the abandonment of the social structure itself was a byproduct of that. http://thebird.org/poetry/md072198.html http://www.sfherald.com/columnists/backwards/ace05.html http://www.vietnamwar.net/quotations/quotations.htm http://www.ridgewater.net/mmdt1021/samples/fl02site12/page3.html Britannica CD 98 Standard Edition ©1994-1998 by Encyclopaedia Britannica, Inc. -- Jonathan Scott -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Testimony of Richard Richardson
Yesterday the US Senate Judiciary Committee chaired by Orrin Hatch held a hearing on the proposed federal marriage amendment. Here is the testimony of Richard Richardson before that committee: TESTIMONY OF REVEREND RICHARD RICHARDSON St. Paul African Methodist Episcopal (AME) Church The Black Ministerial Alliance of Greater Boston Children's Services of Roxbury, Inc. Boston, MA Thank you. It's a good article. -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Cool Riddle
Name something that is better than God, that dead people eat all of the time, and that if you eat it you will die? -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Help Me Please
Hello, I'm working on chapter three, and I need some help. I'm compiling a list of all of the possible positive and negative things kids of the sixties would would have had to measure and consider when choosing whether or not (or how much) to abandon US culture...especially in light of the Vietnam War. Adhering to US Abandoning US Culture Culture --- Positives Acceptance of Life Parents Sex Honor Drugs Acceptance of Peers Freedom Fun --- Negatives Possible Death Disapproval of Terror Parents Possible Physical Handicap Shame P.S. I guess I wasn't very specific. Could you please help me flesh out the above lists? Thanks. -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] AN ANSWER TO THE WORLD - Chapter 2
Feedback Please - - - - - 2. Taboos and Darwin What protects us from ourselves and from one another when we, as a people or an individual, wish to do wrong? Laws (state), shame (church), and taboos (community). Laws can currently be changed according to the will of the people. Religious shame can disappear by changing one's belief in God or even by choosing to stop believing in God altogether. Taboos, the social limits we subconsciously place on ourselves, can be changed by challenging our views of those taboos. Where did the taboos come from though? Why do we have them? A possible answer may come from Darwin. The Concept of Natural Selection. The central argument of Darwin's theory of evolution starts from the existence of hereditary variation. Experience with animal and plant breeding demonstrates that variations can be developed that are useful to man. So, reasoned Darwin, variations must occur in nature that are favourable or useful in some way to the organism itself in the struggle for existence. Favourable variations are ones that increase chances for survival and procreation. Those advantageous variations are preserved and multiplied from generation to generation at the expense of less advantageous ones. This is the process known as natural selection. The outcome of the process is an organism that is well adapted to its environment, and evolution often occurs as a consequence. Natural selection, then, can be defined as the differential reproduction of alternative hereditary variants, determined by the fact that some variants increase the likelihood that the organisms having them will survive and reproduce more successfully than will organisms carrying alternative variants. Selection may be due to differences in survival, in fertility, in rate of development, in mating success, or in any other aspect of the life cycle. All of these differences can be incorporated under the term differential reproduction because all result in natural selection to the extent that they affect the number of progeny an organism leaves. (Quoted from Britannica CD 98 Standard Edition ©1994-1998 by Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.) Does a person's moral belief structure affect their chances of reproducing? Does a person's moral belief structure affect the chances of their children successfully growing to adulthood? If a man's morals do not insist that he feed his children, his children may die as a result. If a woman's morals do not insist that she bear children, the woman will sometimes have abortions or even abstain from childbearing altogether, thereby resulting in a decreased number of offspring. It would seem that, yes, a person's moral belief structure does affect their chances of reproducing as well as the chances of their children's survival to adulthood. According to Darwin and Natural Selection, any quality that prevents a person from reproducing, will be less or not at all present in future generations of people, simply due to the fact that there are no or fewer children around to perpetuate it. The result will be that the condition in question, any condition, will become less frequent, favoring other conditions that are more favorable for creating offspring. If Natural Selection plays a part in the shaping of one's own moral limitations, then it is also possible that the taboos that have been placed within us or that we have shaped for ourselves are pieces of information that, for whatever reason, are or once were essential to our existence and survival. It is also possible that as a society, such as ours, increasingly accepts the nihlistic philosophies, that Nietzsche suggested, as mentioned in section 1, that the moral taboo structure of the society will also change. As Natural Selection suggests though, this change of our moral taboo structure may bring about a disharmony with the reproductive cycle and survival in general, resulting in death, both in a reduction of the number of offspring that are created and in actual death. -- Jonathan Scott -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Feedback Please - Chapter 5
Feedback Please - - - - - 5. Abortion Has the drift from Judeo/Christian morality towards Nihilism resulted in death and other loss of life? Here are some statistics regarding only abortion: Each year there are 1.3 million abortions in the US. There have been over 40 million abortions since Roe vs Wade in the US alone. Currently, 1 in every five pregnancies in the US results in abortion. America has a population of 291 million. Were abortion illegal, its population would be approximately 331 million. This is a difference of 12%. Each year, an estimated 46 million abortions occur worldwide. War US Loss of Life -- Revolutionary War 4,000 Indian Wars 1,000 War of 1812 2,000 Mexican War I 13,000 Civil War 497,821 War Against Spain 11,000 World War I 116,000 World War II406,000 Korean War 55,000 Republic Of Vietnam 109,000 Gulf War Era9,000 -- Total 1,090,200 -- Abortions (US only) (Est.) 41,000,000 (Since Roe vs Wade) (1973 et seq.) -- The Roe vs Wade decision happened on January 22, 1973. The loss of life America suffered from abortion equaled the total amount of lives lost in all US wars fought to date by about May 17 of the following year, just 481 days later. 20th Century Event Loss of Life -- People's Republic of China 40,000,000 Mao Zedong's regime (1949-1975) World War II35,000,000 (not counting holocaust) Joseph Stalin 30,000,000 Congo Free State (1886-1908)21,500,000 World War I 20,000,000 Adolf Hitler (holocaust only) 15,000,000 China, Nationalist Era 9,630,000 (1928-1937) Russian Civil War (1917-1922) 9,000,000 China, Warlord Era (1917-1928) 6,810,000 Chinese Civil War (1945-1949) 6,194,000 North Korea (1948 et seq.) 5,000,000 Post-War Expulsion of 3,000,000 Germans from East Europe (1945-1947) Kinshasa Congo (1998 et seq.) 3,000,000 Afghanistan (1979-2001) 2,800,000 Korean War (1950-1953) 2,800,000 Nigeria (1966-1970) 2,000,000 Second Indochina War1,800,000 (1960-1975) (Vietnam) Cambodia (Pol Pot) 1,600,000 (1975-1978) Ethiopia (1962-1992)1,500,000 Sudan (1983 et seq.)1,500,000 Rwanda and Brundi (1959-1995) 1,200,000 Bangladesh (1971) 1,100,000 Mexican Revolution (1910-1920) 1,000,000 Iran-Traq War (1980-1988) 825,000 Armenian Massacres (1915-1923) 600,000 Mozambique (1975-1993) 400,000 -- Total 223,259,000 -- Abortions World Wide (Est.) 1,451,000,000 (Since Roe vs Wade) (1973 et seq.) Abortions (US only) (Est.) 41,000,000 (Since Roe vs Wade) (1973 et seq.) -- The above events are all from the 20th century and only included those events where the death toll was greater than or equal that of the US loss of life in the American Civil War. Sources http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstats.htm http://www.libraryspot.com/lists/listwars.htm http://www.poliblogger.com/poliblog/archives/001632.html http://www.roevwade.org/rvw1.html http://www.ujfhc.net/1-2.html -- Jonathan Scott -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] An Answer the the World - Chapter 5
Feedback Please - - - - - 5. Abortion Has the drift from Judeo/Christian morality towards Nihilism resulted in death and other loss of life? Here are some statistics regarding only abortion: Each year there are 1.3 million abortions in the US. There have been over 40 million abortions since Roe vs Wade in the US alone. Currently, 1 in every five pregnancies in the US results in abortion. America has a population of 291 million. Were abortion illegal, its population would be approximately 331 million. This is a difference of 12%. Each year, an estimated 46 million abortions occur worldwide. War US Loss of Life -- Revolutionary War 4,000 Indian Wars 1,000 War of 1812 2,000 Mexican War I 13,000 Civil War 497,821 War Against Spain 11,000 World War I 116,000 World War II406,000 Korean War 55,000 Republic Of Vietnam 109,000 Gulf War Era9,000 -- Total 1,090,200 -- Abortions (US only) (Est.) 41,000,000 (Since Roe vs Wade) (1973 et seq.) -- The Roe vs Wade decision happened on January 22, 1973. The loss of life America suffered from abortion equaled the total amount of lives lost in all US wars fought to date by about May 17 of the following year, just 481 days later. 20th Century Event Loss of Life -- People's Republic of China 40,000,000 Mao Zedong's regime (1949-1975) World War II35,000,000 (not counting holocaust) Joseph Stalin 30,000,000 Congo Free State (1886-1908)21,500,000 World War I 20,000,000 Adolf Hitler (holocaust only) 15,000,000 China, Nationalist Era 9,630,000 (1928-1937) Russian Civil War (1917-1922) 9,000,000 China, Warlord Era (1917-1928) 6,810,000 Chinese Civil War (1945-1949) 6,194,000 North Korea (1948 et seq.) 5,000,000 Post-War Expulsion of 3,000,000 Germans from East Europe (1945-1947) Kinshasa Congo (1998 et seq.) 3,000,000 Afghanistan (1979-2001) 2,800,000 Korean War (1950-1953) 2,800,000 Nigeria (1966-1970) 2,000,000 Second Indochina War1,800,000 (1960-1975) (Vietnam) Cambodia (Pol Pot) 1,600,000 (1975-1978) Ethiopia (1962-1992)1,500,000 Sudan (1983 et seq.)1,500,000 Rwanda and Brundi (1959-1995) 1,200,000 Bangladesh (1971) 1,100,000 Mexican Revolution (1910-1920) 1,000,000 Iran-Traq War (1980-1988) 825,000 Armenian Massacres (1915-1923) 600,000 Mozambique (1975-1993) 400,000 -- Total 223,259,000 -- Abortions World Wide (Est.) 1,451,000,000 (Since Roe vs Wade) (1973 et seq.) Abortions (US only) (Est.) 41,000,000 (Since Roe vs Wade) (1973 et seq.) -- The above events are all from the 20th century and only included those events where the death toll was greater than or equal that of the US loss of life in the American Civil War. Sources http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstats.htm http://www.libraryspot.com/lists/listwars.htm http://www.poliblogger.com/poliblog/archives/001632.html http://www.roevwade.org/rvw1.html http://www.ujfhc.net/1-2.html -- Jonathan Scott -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Feedback Please - Chapter 5
Sorry about the double post. Made a mistake. -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Federal Marriage Amendment
On Mar 4, 2004, at 4:11 PM, Jonathan Scott wrote: Neither this Constitution or the constitution of any State, Translation: Sorry, activist judges, you have to follow these rules. nor state or federal law, Translation: Sorry, Congress and state legislatures, you can't change this either. shall be construed Translation: You can't read this to promote your society destroying cancers. to require that marital status Translation: Marriage says what this amendment says it does. No less, no more. or the legal incidents thereof Translation: Marriage is special. Hands off. be conferred upon unmarried couples or groups. Anything other than marriage between man and wife is not marriage. Polygamy, polyandry, homosexual relationships, etc., are not marriage. Unless people are married, they can't get the benefits of marriage. Sorry, but can someone tell me what this part means? -- Jonathan Scott Harold Stuart Groovy. Thanks. -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] God is Dead
Well, after a bunch of searches for this article at the New York Times, the best I could get was an article from 1-9-1966. It was entitled God is Dead which sounds right, but supposedly the original article was published on Nov 21, 1965. Can anyone help me out? I'd really like to read the article if I could. I can't find it on the net at all. Lots of allusions to it, but not it itself. Thanks in advance. -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Gay Marriage in Oregon
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storycid=514e=2u=/ap/20040303/ap_on_re_us/gay_marriage -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] An answer to the world - Chapter 1
Feedback please - - - - - HOW I BELIEVE THE FAMILY IS BEING ATTACKED ©2004 by Jonathan Scott - - - - - 1. God is Dead 2. Taboos and Darwin 3. The Vietnam War and the Mass Challenging of Taboos 4. Feminism, Women in the Workplace, Inflation, Poverty 5. Abortion 6. Sex 7. Generation Y 8. Same Sex Marriage - - - - - 1. God is Dead The following article is from the January 9, 1966 New York Times (Page 146.) 'God is Dead' The following ritual was presented during a chapel service at a small denominational college in the South. It was designed to explore in liturgical form the experience of the death of God. The reaction, according to campus reporter, ranged from tears to a new enthusiasm for theology. Reader: He was our guide and our stay He walked with us beside still waters He was our help in ages past Chorus: The lengthening shadow grows formless The lengthening shadow grows formless Reader: Now the day is over Night is drawing nigh Shadows of the evening steal across the sky Chorus: He is gone. He is stolen by darkness He is gone. He is stolen by darkness Reader: Now we must wonder Was He our only dream. A dream painted across the sky Chorus: And in the beginning our fear created him And in the beginning our fear created him Reader: Did we create Him in our image? Did we surround Him with hosts because We were alone? Chorus: Our imaginations rescued us from the deep Our imaginations rescued us from the deep Reader: Space has stretched beyond Him. It is very cold here And from time there comes no warmth Chorus: The universe is too vast for him The universe is too vast for him Reader: Beyond the stars, more stars Beyond the sky, more sky Above our dreams, more dreams Chorus: Heaven is empty Heaven is empty Reader: Only his footsteps remain Only stained glass and arched hopes Only wasted steeples and useless piety Chorus: There is silence along the forest path There is silence along the forest path Reader: Why is there no dawn? Why do our dead only die? Why do our living only live? Chorus: Your God is Dead He died in the darkness of your image He died because he grew ill from your dreams of salvation He died because you held his hand too tightly God is Dead New York Times, Jan 9, 1966, pg. 146 The God is Dead concept was originally published in 1882 by philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche who's argument was that in our successes in science and in our unraveling of earth's mysteries, many have come to deduce that there is no God and, as a result, have removed His spiritual influence from their hearts. Because our society (American and European) is founded on Judeo/Christian morality, the removal of God from our culture will result unavoidably in great changes to the culture. Here is the quote from Nietzsche's book entitled The Gay Science (aka Joyous Wisdom). Have you not heard of that madman who lit a lantern in the bright morning hours, ran to the market-place, and cried incessantly: I am looking for God! I am looking for God! As many of those who did not believe in God were standing together there, he excited considerable laughter. Have you lost him, then? said one. Did he lose his way like a child? said another. Or is he hiding? Is he afraid of us? Has he gone on a voyage? or emigrated? Thus they shouted and laughed. The madman sprang into their midst and pierced them with his glances. Where has God gone? he cried. I shall tell you. We have killed him - you and I. We are his murderers. But how have we done this? How were we able to drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What did we do when we unchained the earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving now? Away from all suns? Are we not perpetually falling? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there any up or down left? Are we not straying as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is it not more and more night coming on all the time? Must not lanterns be lit in the morning? Do we not hear anything yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? Do we not smell anything yet of God's decomposition? Gods too decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we, murderers of all murderers, console ourselves? That which was the holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet possessed has bled to death under our knives
RE: [ZION] Orson Scott Card on Iraq
Let's see... In my neighborhood there is a little grocery store. We use it everyday for our necessities. The owner is nice enough. The employees are nice enough. We get along. The prices are acceptable. One day, I see a group of club wielding thugs walk towards the store with the intent of killing the owner and taking over the store. I personally have the sneaking suspicion that if the thugs take over, my prices will raise, not to mention the fact that the thugs are thugs, and if they own the store, their thuggery will probably simply escalate now that it has a better means of financing itself. Also, I never hated the original store owners. We got along. They were acceptable neighbors. So, the big question is whether or not me and my friends and our AK-47s feel like stepping in and confronting the club wielding thugs. Personally, I would hope that I would step in...especially when you consider that once the thugs are better financed, they probably will also buy AK-47s and stopping them will become much more difficult. I'm glad Saddam is gone. I have only praise for both Bush and Bush Sr. in this regard. How about to defend an ally (Kuwait)? Also, how about to defend our oil interests? Those are two very important reasons to go into Iraq the first time, as well as the second time. What would the economy of the USA been like over the past 10 years if Saddam had control of the oil fields in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia? He would have jacked the price up, forcing us into $3/gallon a decade ago. As it is, most of us grouse at paying above $1.50/gal right now. It would have stifled our economy, and enriched someone known to slaughter his enemies (foreign and domestic) WITH WMDs, and also spends money on many terrorist groups. I think we were well within reason to defend and ally and also our national security in both efforts. Gary John W. Redelfs wrote: Jim Cobabe wrote: John, what say you about this OSC editorial on Bush and Iraq? http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2004-01-25-1.html Orson Scott Card says that the war in Iraq is justified as an extension of the first Gulf War even if there were no weapons of mass destruction. I say that the first Gulf War was not justified because it was not on our own soil. I don't believe in invading foreign countries on a pretext. --JWR Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Jonathan Scott // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
