Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 01:24:17 + Stephen Beecroft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: For some reason, this topic generates a great deal of emotion in > people on both sides of the issue. I fail to understand why, even in > myself, such emotions arise. Because we ALL know that Father loves you more . val The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love
Stephen Beecroft wrote: Then I suggest the scriptures also "mix up" these two concepts, because divine blessings are consistently represented as an indication of God's love, while divine cursings or divine deafness evidences God's disinclination toward or hatred of a people. As you no doubt already know, Stephen, I agree with you on the matter of whether or not God's love is "unconditional." However, I went looking for some scriptural evidence that God ever hates any of his children, and my cursory survey did not turn up anything. Am I missing something? Surely God hates wickedness, but does he hate the wicked? He hates sin, but does he hate sinners? Perhaps you could point me to some scripture where the object of God's hatred---and yes I do believe in a God who hates---is a person rather than a concept or behavior. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "The study of the doctrines of the Gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior." --Boyd K. Packer === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Conditional divine love
-Ron- > God's love is unconditional, according to Hinckley (many sources). What are some of those sources? For some reason, this topic generates a great deal of emotion in people on both sides of the issue. I fail to understand why, even in myself, such emotions arise. The quality of God's love does not depend upon whether I understand it correctly or not. So what's at stake? Will the answer make God love me more or less? Clearly, the existence of reality does not depend on my perception of it. It seems to me that the scriptures are quite clear and consistent in teaching that God's love is indeed conditional. Nowhere in scripture do I find indication that God's love is "unconditional". Many places in scripture do I find indications that God's love is quite conditional. If this is a difficult doctrine for some to accept and understand, does that make it any less true or profound? Let us suppose for a moment that Ron's distinction is correct; that is, God's love for us is unconditional, but his blessings to us are not. What, then, constitutes "God's love" for us? Does it mean how fondly he thinks of us when we pray to him? How much his pulse rate increases when we grow or diminish? I can't think of any clear meaning for the phrase "God's love" in such a case. In fact, I submit that stating that "God's love" is "unconditional" makes the phrase itself meaningless. So God loves me just like he loves Jesus Christ and Satan, and he continues loving me in the exact same manner whether I strive toward exaltation or greedily fall into depravity? In that case, who cares about God's love? It's a constant, like gravity. We may be thankful for it in some academic or theoretical sense, but it has absolutely no applicability to us in everyday things. So if I believe God's love to be "unconditional", I must also believe it to be pretty much irrelevant to my life -- in which case, why would I care if someone states that God's love is conditional? Since it doesn't affect me anyway, what's the problem? > As I said, you getting the two concepts mixed up. You're making > synoymns of "unconditional love" and "divine blessings." Then I suggest the scriptures also "mix up" these two concepts, because divine blessings are consistently represented as an indication of God's love, while divine cursings or divine deafness evidences God's disinclination toward or hatred of a people. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] conditional divine love
I think the key to it is not the love part, but the unconditional blessing part. God in stating he hated Esau, was saying he did not favor Esau, or that he rejected him, because of Esau's actions and sins. However, what if Esau were to repent? Would God still hate him and reject him? Of course not. God's divine love is unconditional in the fact that he is always ready to love and forgive. It is conditional in that he cannot look upon any degree of sin with allowance. Does that mean he hates us when we do the smallest sin? No. It does mean that he still loves us, awaits our repenting, and withholds blessings and promises until we are back in line with the Spirit and the Atonement. Does God love Satan? I would imagine he does, however I don't think he loves him on the same level He loves Jesus or a faithful child. He definitely has withheld great blessings from Satan as part of that Divine Love. Satan would not appreciate the blessings offered. So, I think there is a redefinition of terms being done by Elder Nelson, due to such confusion by members. It is too easy for people to think that 'unconditional' means God will accept us regardless of our wickedness. And that just ain't the case. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. Stacy: The old argument seems to be flaming again. What about the passage in the Bible that says, "Esau have I hated." Even if it means, "loved less," isn't that conditional? Stacy. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
[ZION] conditional divine love
I think Elder Nelson was defining "unconditional love" as a kind of love where God would love all of us so very much that he would forgive everyone, regardless of what we've done or whether we had repented or not. Using that definition, he is correct that there is no such thing as 'unconditional love.' However, his definition of 'divine love' is what many here have used as their definition of 'unconditional love', that is, that God loves all his children regardless of what they do, but he favors those who follow Him. I think he is trying to clarify the issue by giving us a better term to use, one that has less risk of misinterpretation. "unconditional love" can mean different things to people, while 'divine love' is more explicit and has less connotation of a God that loves so much that he just forgets about justice and goodness. K'aya K'ama, Gerald (Gary) Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html LDS Evidences, Family History, Food Storage, etc. -Geoff- > Great post! According to the prophets, then it appears that there > are actually two types of love: > 1. Divine love > 2. Unconditional love > They are not one and the same. However, it is true that our > Heavenly Father has and exercises both, and that we are > commanded to do likewise. Would you agree? Stephen: Not quite, I don't think. While it is true that "God is love", it is not true that "Love is God". That is, "love" is not an overriding or ultimate principle wherein everything and everyone is loved. I believe that "unconditional love" is nothing more than a linguistic construct. I think it's false as a concept, nonexistent, nonsensical, without meaning, just like "sinful God" or "miserable exaltation" are nonsensical and meaningless. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Conditional divine love
I can't wait to read the article. I can't believe the guy agrees with me on this one. Stacy. At 11:09 PM 01/24/2003 +, you wrote: -Geoff- > I guess in order to clear up the semantics issue, we would need > to turn to the scriptures and words of the prophets and > determine how / when they use the term "unconditional love". Agreed. I'm quite sure you'll find the term absent from scripture. However, as you note, other (and recent or current) leaders have used the very term. Yet Elder Nelson says it's false. How to rectify the two? Well, we could try some sort of "seniority" argument, but I personally think that's baloney. Here's my rectification, fwiw: The term "unconditional love" is well-known and evokes a certain emotional reaction. People have a sort of gut-level understanding of that feeling. I believe Elder Maxwell and the others who used the term "unconditional love" were probably attempting to rouse that "gut-level reaction", rather than making a philosophical commentary on the nature of divine love. On the other hand, Elder Nelson was very specifically making exactly such a philosophical commentary. For that reason, my resolution is to accept the words of Elder Maxwell and others in the spirit in which I believe they were intended, similar in meaning to what Elder Nelson calls "divine love", while accepting Elder Nelson's clear teachings at absolute face value. > Here is the real kicker - does God still love Lucifer? What about > the Sons of Perdition? Not sure why this is such an issue for many people, though I know it is. I don't pretend to speak for God or how he feels about this or that topic; nevertheless, according to any meaningful scriptural definition of "love", it seems clear to me that God does not and in fact cannot love Satan. God is merciful, of course, and since he embodies mercy, he will show to Satan and his followers as much mercy as he can, which basically means confining them to a kingdom of no glory. But "love" in any true, saving, exalting sense of the word cannot be a trait that Satan evokes in any heart. Revulsion, abhorrence, perhaps pity, even mercy, but not love. > The other question is this: Does divine love encompass the command > to forgive all men? Are we to love those who hurt, abuse, and > murder us with divine love or unconditional love? I assume the two are intimately related, though I don't pretend to understand the connection exactly. Interesting discussion. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.445 / Virus Database: 250 - Release Date: 01/21/2003 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Conditional divine love
-Elder Nelson- > "Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The > full flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that > love are conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal > law." -George- > Stephen, this statement seems to negate your earlier idea that > love is conditional. Not sure why you say that. Elder Nelson's sentence that you quoted above plainly reads, "The full flower of divine love [...] [is] conditional". Other phrases that I quoted before include: "[D]ivine love [...] cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional." "[M]any verses [...] declare the conditional nature of divine love for us." "[D]ivine love and blessings are not truly 'unconditional'" > It seems to me that Love from our Father and our Savior is > unconditional Elder Nelson appears not to agree. > The blessing may be conditional, but surely not the love. Elder Nelson does not make that distinction. > If Elder Nelson said any different than that I would be > disappointed, but I will read the article. Hope you enjoy it. Please don't be disappointed, though. It might turn out that he's just restating in different words something you already believe. If he really is teaching something different, then rejoice that we have leaders who can teach us such important "fine points". Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love
The old argument seems to be flaming again. What about the passage in the Bible that says, "Esau have I hated." Even if it means, "loved less," isn't that conditional? Stacy. At 07:13 PM 01/24/2003 -0500, you wrote: Have youse guys read the article? Jon - Original Message - From: "George Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 6:38 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love > "Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full > flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are > conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law." > > Stephen, this statement seems to negate your earlier idea that love is > conditional. It seems to me that Love from our Father and our Savior is > unconditional and as part of that they want us to receive as much as we can, > but no more blessing than we can handle. > > The blessing may be conditional, but surely not the love. If Elder Nelson > said any different than that I would be disappointed, but I will read the > article. > > George > > - Original Message - > From: "Stephen Beecroft" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 9:32 AM > Subject: [ZION] Conditional divine love > > > > Some time ago on this very list (probably its incarnation on zilker.net > > or some other pre-Topica server), a rather heated discussion -- imagine > > that! -- arose regarding, of all topics, God's love. Some of us claimed > > that the scriptures clearly teach that God's love is conditional, given > > to some more than to others, and dependent in its intensity on the > > actions and heart of the recipient; while others steadfastly maintained > > that God's love is unconditional, that he loves the rankest, vilest > > sinner just as much as he loves the most virtuous of men and women. > > > > I thus find it interesting that this month's Ensign includes an article > > by Elder Nelson extolling the *conditional* nature of God's love. I > > definitely recommend the article to all, which starts on page 20 of the > > February 2003 Ensign. Some relevant quotations follow: > > > > "While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and > > universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as *unconditional*." > > [emphasis in original] > > > > "With scriptural patterns of conditional statements in mind, we note > > many verses that declare the conditional nature of divine love for us. > > Examples include: [John 15:10; D&C 95:12; John 14:23; Proverbs 8:17; > > Acts 10:34-35; 1 Nephi 17:40; John 14:21]" > > > > "Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly > > 'unconditional' can defend us against common fallacies such as these: > > 'Since God's love is unconditional, He will love me regardless...'; or > > 'Since ''God is love,'' He will love me unconditionally, regardless...' > > These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception." > > > > "Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full > > flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are > > conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law." > > > > Stephen > > > > > > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > / > > > > > > > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.445 / Virus Database: 250 - Release Date: 01/21/2003 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love
Have youse guys read the article? Jon - Original Message - From: "George Cobabe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 6:38 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love > "Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full > flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are > conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law." > > Stephen, this statement seems to negate your earlier idea that love is > conditional. It seems to me that Love from our Father and our Savior is > unconditional and as part of that they want us to receive as much as we can, > but no more blessing than we can handle. > > The blessing may be conditional, but surely not the love. If Elder Nelson > said any different than that I would be disappointed, but I will read the > article. > > George > > - Original Message - > From: "Stephen Beecroft" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 9:32 AM > Subject: [ZION] Conditional divine love > > > > Some time ago on this very list (probably its incarnation on zilker.net > > or some other pre-Topica server), a rather heated discussion -- imagine > > that! -- arose regarding, of all topics, God's love. Some of us claimed > > that the scriptures clearly teach that God's love is conditional, given > > to some more than to others, and dependent in its intensity on the > > actions and heart of the recipient; while others steadfastly maintained > > that God's love is unconditional, that he loves the rankest, vilest > > sinner just as much as he loves the most virtuous of men and women. > > > > I thus find it interesting that this month's Ensign includes an article > > by Elder Nelson extolling the *conditional* nature of God's love. I > > definitely recommend the article to all, which starts on page 20 of the > > February 2003 Ensign. Some relevant quotations follow: > > > > "While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and > > universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as *unconditional*." > > [emphasis in original] > > > > "With scriptural patterns of conditional statements in mind, we note > > many verses that declare the conditional nature of divine love for us. > > Examples include: [John 15:10; D&C 95:12; John 14:23; Proverbs 8:17; > > Acts 10:34-35; 1 Nephi 17:40; John 14:21]" > > > > "Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly > > 'unconditional' can defend us against common fallacies such as these: > > 'Since God's love is unconditional, He will love me regardless...'; or > > 'Since ''God is love,'' He will love me unconditionally, regardless...' > > These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception." > > > > "Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full > > flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are > > conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law." > > > > Stephen > > > > > > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > > > / > > > > > > > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love
I read this article last night. Wasn't it wonderful?! If you haven't yet read it, get off this silly list and go read it right now. Jon - Original Message - From: "Stephen Beecroft" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 11:32 AM Subject: [ZION] Conditional divine love > Some time ago on this very list (probably its incarnation on zilker.net > or some other pre-Topica server), a rather heated discussion -- imagine > that! -- arose regarding, of all topics, God's love. Some of us claimed > that the scriptures clearly teach that God's love is conditional, given > to some more than to others, and dependent in its intensity on the > actions and heart of the recipient; while others steadfastly maintained > that God's love is unconditional, that he loves the rankest, vilest > sinner just as much as he loves the most virtuous of men and women. > > I thus find it interesting that this month's Ensign includes an article > by Elder Nelson extolling the *conditional* nature of God's love. I > definitely recommend the article to all, which starts on page 20 of the > February 2003 Ensign. Some relevant quotations follow: > > "While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and > universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as *unconditional*." > [emphasis in original] > > "With scriptural patterns of conditional statements in mind, we note > many verses that declare the conditional nature of divine love for us. > Examples include: [John 15:10; D&C 95:12; John 14:23; Proverbs 8:17; > Acts 10:34-35; 1 Nephi 17:40; John 14:21]" > > "Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly > 'unconditional' can defend us against common fallacies such as these: > 'Since God's love is unconditional, He will love me regardless...'; or > 'Since ''God is love,'' He will love me unconditionally, regardless...' > These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception." > > "Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full > flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are > conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law." > > Stephen > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love
"Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law." Stephen, this statement seems to negate your earlier idea that love is conditional. It seems to me that Love from our Father and our Savior is unconditional and as part of that they want us to receive as much as we can, but no more blessing than we can handle. The blessing may be conditional, but surely not the love. If Elder Nelson said any different than that I would be disappointed, but I will read the article. George - Original Message - From: "Stephen Beecroft" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 9:32 AM Subject: [ZION] Conditional divine love > Some time ago on this very list (probably its incarnation on zilker.net > or some other pre-Topica server), a rather heated discussion -- imagine > that! -- arose regarding, of all topics, God's love. Some of us claimed > that the scriptures clearly teach that God's love is conditional, given > to some more than to others, and dependent in its intensity on the > actions and heart of the recipient; while others steadfastly maintained > that God's love is unconditional, that he loves the rankest, vilest > sinner just as much as he loves the most virtuous of men and women. > > I thus find it interesting that this month's Ensign includes an article > by Elder Nelson extolling the *conditional* nature of God's love. I > definitely recommend the article to all, which starts on page 20 of the > February 2003 Ensign. Some relevant quotations follow: > > "While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and > universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as *unconditional*." > [emphasis in original] > > "With scriptural patterns of conditional statements in mind, we note > many verses that declare the conditional nature of divine love for us. > Examples include: [John 15:10; D&C 95:12; John 14:23; Proverbs 8:17; > Acts 10:34-35; 1 Nephi 17:40; John 14:21]" > > "Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly > 'unconditional' can defend us against common fallacies such as these: > 'Since God's love is unconditional, He will love me regardless...'; or > 'Since ''God is love,'' He will love me unconditionally, regardless...' > These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception." > > "Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full > flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are > conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law." > > Stephen > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Conditional divine love
-Geoff- > I guess in order to clear up the semantics issue, we would need > to turn to the scriptures and words of the prophets and > determine how / when they use the term "unconditional love". Agreed. I'm quite sure you'll find the term absent from scripture. However, as you note, other (and recent or current) leaders have used the very term. Yet Elder Nelson says it's false. How to rectify the two? Well, we could try some sort of "seniority" argument, but I personally think that's baloney. Here's my rectification, fwiw: The term "unconditional love" is well-known and evokes a certain emotional reaction. People have a sort of gut-level understanding of that feeling. I believe Elder Maxwell and the others who used the term "unconditional love" were probably attempting to rouse that "gut-level reaction", rather than making a philosophical commentary on the nature of divine love. On the other hand, Elder Nelson was very specifically making exactly such a philosophical commentary. For that reason, my resolution is to accept the words of Elder Maxwell and others in the spirit in which I believe they were intended, similar in meaning to what Elder Nelson calls "divine love", while accepting Elder Nelson's clear teachings at absolute face value. > Here is the real kicker - does God still love Lucifer? What about > the Sons of Perdition? Not sure why this is such an issue for many people, though I know it is. I don't pretend to speak for God or how he feels about this or that topic; nevertheless, according to any meaningful scriptural definition of "love", it seems clear to me that God does not and in fact cannot love Satan. God is merciful, of course, and since he embodies mercy, he will show to Satan and his followers as much mercy as he can, which basically means confining them to a kingdom of no glory. But "love" in any true, saving, exalting sense of the word cannot be a trait that Satan evokes in any heart. Revulsion, abhorrence, perhaps pity, even mercy, but not love. > The other question is this: Does divine love encompass the command > to forgive all men? Are we to love those who hurt, abuse, and > murder us with divine love or unconditional love? I assume the two are intimately related, though I don't pretend to understand the connection exactly. Interesting discussion. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Conditional divine love
Stephen, I guess in order to clear up the semantics issue, we would need to turn to the scriptures and words of the prophets and determine how / when they use the term "unconditional love". I had always thought that the term meant we were to love and forgive our fellowmen, no matter what they have done, because they are children of our Heavenly Father - and thus, our brothers and sisters. Does this mean that God (or we, for that matter) condones what they wicked do? No, of course not. Yet doesn't He still love them, despite the bad that they have done? Where are the conditions that limit God's love? Here is the real kicker - does God still love Lucifer? What about the Sons of Perdition? The other question is this: Does divine love encompass the command to forgive all men? Are we to love those who hurt, abuse, and murder us with divine love or unconditional love? I guess what we need are definitions of each term. When I searched through GospeLink 2001 for the words "unconditional love", and these are the times they were used by General Authorities: "Express unconditional love to one another through word and act." - A. Theodore Tuttle, 1979 address "There he found acceptance and affection and unconditional love." - Elder Marion D. Hanks, Conference Report, October 1970 "First Questioner: Is it possible to become too subtle with something as simple as the gospel? "The Disciple: Indeed it is, and we must ever be aware that this possibility exists. I don't think of the gospel as subtle, however; I think of it as deep and simple. For instance, some might say that what follows is a subtlety: God can love the sinner and hate the sin. When our desires and our actions go against his plans for us, he must be against us and what we are then doing. But that really means that God is always for us. He never regards man with contempt, but regards many of the things we do as contemptible. In the very moment in which Jesus sent Judas away to do his awful deed, He still loved Judas; His disciple whom He had taught unconditional love, who could not love Jesus, nevertheless could not move outside the range of Jesus' love even in betrayal. Some truths take a good deal of pondering, but not because they are complex. Because they are so powerful and cut so deeply, we must truly feel their edgeand more than fleetingly." - Elder Neal A. Maxwell, Desposition of a Disciple "His duties have long been galactic, yet He noticed the widow casting in her mite. I am stunned at His perfect, unconditional love of all. Indeed, "I stand all amazed at the love Jesus offers me." I thank Him for His discerning way of loving us without controlling us, for never letting the needs of now crowd out the considerations of eternity." - Elder Neal A. Maxwell, Even As I Am "This leads us to the process of making covenants and participating in ordinances, which are sources of power as we realize the importance of the Lord's will in our lives and have faith in it. Such faith turns us toward the Savior, his life, and his unconditional love for us. As these truths sink into our hearts, we hear him requiring the sacrifice of a broken heart and contrite spirit. We must give up the ways of the world and accept and do his way." - Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin, Finding Peace in Our Lives "Because of his rebellion, Lucifer was cast out and became Satan, the devil, "the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto [his] voice." (Moses 4:4.) And so this personage who was an angel of God and in authority, even in the presence of God, was removed from the presence of God and his Son. (See D&C 76:25.) This caused great sadness in the heavens, "for the heavens wept over himhe was Lucifer, a son of the morning." (D&C 76:26.) Does this not place some responsibility on the followers of Christ to show concern for loved ones who have lost their way and "are shut out from the presence of God"? (Moses 6:49.) I know of no better way to do this than to show unconditional love and to help lost souls seek another path." - James E. Faust, Reach Up For The Light Sorry for the long post. Since I have not read Elder Nelson's talk, I do not know if he refutes the concept "unconditional love" or not. If he doesn't, I guess I am not able to state that this concept is meaningless. I can easily see, however, the difference between divine love and unconditional love. Please let me know your thoughts on this. Your brother, Geoff >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/24/03 02:29PM >>> -Geoff- > Great post! According to the prophets, then it appears that there > are actually two types of love: > 1. Divine love > 2. Unconditional love > They are not one and the same. However, it is true that our > Heavenly Father has and exercises both, and that we are > commanded to do likewise. Would you agree? Not quite, I don't think. While it is true that "God is love", it is not true that "Love is God". That i
RE: [ZION] Conditional divine love
-Geoff- > Great post! According to the prophets, then it appears that there > are actually two types of love: > 1. Divine love > 2. Unconditional love > They are not one and the same. However, it is true that our > Heavenly Father has and exercises both, and that we are > commanded to do likewise. Would you agree? Not quite, I don't think. While it is true that "God is love", it is not true that "Love is God". That is, "love" is not an overriding or ultimate principle wherein everything and everyone is loved. I believe that "unconditional love" is nothing more than a linguistic construct. I think it's false as a concept, nonexistent, nonsensical, without meaning, just like "sinful God" or "miserable exaltation" are nonsensical and meaningless. All love, even God's love, is conditioned or predicated upon the laws set forth (by God) that govern it. Parents may think the love for their child is boundless and unconditional; but let that child turn against the parents and everything they have stood for and tried to build, and actively seek their destruction, the destruction of their other children, and the desecration of all that the parents consider holy, and the parents, while mourning their child's loss and hoping for his return, are likely to find that their love is conditional after all. In this vein, I don't think we're commanded to exercise "unconditional love", which wouldn't even make any sense anyway if that term is an oxymoron. I think we're commanded to love as God loves, but as Elder Nelson pointed out, divine love is not "unconditional". We are commanded to forgive all men, and to show forth the love of Christ; but I don't think this means any sort of "unconditional love". Admittedly, like all philosophical discussions, this becomes a matter of defition and semantics. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love
I have been waiting to hear these kinds of sentiments for a long time! Bravo!!! Stacy. At 04:32 PM 01/24/2003 +, you wrote: Some time ago on this very list (probably its incarnation on zilker.net or some other pre-Topica server), a rather heated discussion -- imagine that! -- arose regarding, of all topics, God's love. Some of us claimed that the scriptures clearly teach that God's love is conditional, given to some more than to others, and dependent in its intensity on the actions and heart of the recipient; while others steadfastly maintained that God's love is unconditional, that he loves the rankest, vilest sinner just as much as he loves the most virtuous of men and women. I thus find it interesting that this month's Ensign includes an article by Elder Nelson extolling the *conditional* nature of God's love. I definitely recommend the article to all, which starts on page 20 of the February 2003 Ensign. Some relevant quotations follow: "While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as *unconditional*." [emphasis in original] "With scriptural patterns of conditional statements in mind, we note many verses that declare the conditional nature of divine love for us. Examples include: [John 15:10; D&C 95:12; John 14:23; Proverbs 8:17; Acts 10:34-35; 1 Nephi 17:40; John 14:21]" "Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly 'unconditional' can defend us against common fallacies such as these: 'Since God's love is unconditional, He will love me regardless...'; or 'Since ''God is love,'' He will love me unconditionally, regardless...' These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception." "Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law." Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.445 / Virus Database: 250 - Release Date: 01/21/2003 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love
Stephen, Great post! According to the prophets, then it appears that there are actually two types of love: 1. Divine love 2. Unconditional love They are not one and the same. However, it is true that our Heavenly Father has and exercises both, and that we are commanded to do likewise. Would you agree? Geoff >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/24/03 09:32AM >>> Some time ago on this very list (probably its incarnation on zilker.net or some other pre-Topica server), a rather heated discussion -- imagine that! -- arose regarding, of all topics, God's love. Some of us claimed that the scriptures clearly teach that God's love is conditional, given to some more than to others, and dependent in its intensity on the actions and heart of the recipient; while others steadfastly maintained that God's love is unconditional, that he loves the rankest, vilest sinner just as much as he loves the most virtuous of men and women. I thus find it interesting that this month's Ensign includes an article by Elder Nelson extolling the *conditional* nature of God's love. I definitely recommend the article to all, which starts on page 20 of the February 2003 Ensign. Some relevant quotations follow: "While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as *unconditional*." [emphasis in original] "With scriptural patterns of conditional statements in mind, we note many verses that declare the conditional nature of divine love for us. Examples include: [John 15:10; D&C 95:12; John 14:23; Proverbs 8:17; Acts 10:34-35; 1 Nephi 17:40; John 14:21]" "Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly 'unconditional' can defend us against common fallacies such as these: 'Since God's love is unconditional, He will love me regardless...'; or 'Since ''God is love,'' He will love me unconditionally, regardless...' These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception." "Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law." Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
[ZION] Conditional divine love
Some time ago on this very list (probably its incarnation on zilker.net or some other pre-Topica server), a rather heated discussion -- imagine that! -- arose regarding, of all topics, God's love. Some of us claimed that the scriptures clearly teach that God's love is conditional, given to some more than to others, and dependent in its intensity on the actions and heart of the recipient; while others steadfastly maintained that God's love is unconditional, that he loves the rankest, vilest sinner just as much as he loves the most virtuous of men and women. I thus find it interesting that this month's Ensign includes an article by Elder Nelson extolling the *conditional* nature of God's love. I definitely recommend the article to all, which starts on page 20 of the February 2003 Ensign. Some relevant quotations follow: "While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as *unconditional*." [emphasis in original] "With scriptural patterns of conditional statements in mind, we note many verses that declare the conditional nature of divine love for us. Examples include: [John 15:10; D&C 95:12; John 14:23; Proverbs 8:17; Acts 10:34-35; 1 Nephi 17:40; John 14:21]" "Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly 'unconditional' can defend us against common fallacies such as these: 'Since God's love is unconditional, He will love me regardless...'; or 'Since ''God is love,'' He will love me unconditionally, regardless...' These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception." "Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law." Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
