Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

2002-10-30 Thread Marc A. Schindler
FWIW, this is exactly how I remember it, too. She also made a public snit about
how her 12-year old daughter wasn't allowed to pass the sacrament. As I recall,
her marriage broke up again and she declared she'd been a lesbian all along. Bit
of a wacko. Wonder whatever happened to her?

As Elvis might have sung, since everyone knows he was a secret Mormon, You can
step on my triple, you can stamp on my food storage, but honey lay offa them
white-shirted missionaries.

Gary Smith wrote:

 Sonia Johnson was excommunicated in the late 1970s for teaching people
 not to let missionaries into their homes. She was pushing the Equal
 Rights Amendment, which the Church opposed. She wanted to put political
 pressure on the Church by having people not allow missionaries into their
 homes. She refused to back down, and her bishop had no choice but to
 excommunicate her for teaching a doctrine that opposed a fundamental
 teaching of the Church.
 Normally, this would not have been made public, but she made a big to-do
 of it in the press, and the Church had no choice but to defend itself in
 the media.
 K'aya K'ama,
 Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
 .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
 No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free.  -
 Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

 Paul:
 No one in this church can be excommunicated for simply teaching false
 doctrine.

 Paul O
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Guns don’t kill people; people with guns kill people

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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RE: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

2002-10-29 Thread Scott McGee
Ok, question time. If a person is excomunicated due to them having taught
false doctrine, is a statement from them renouncing the false doctrine
required for their repentance? It would seem like it should be. If so,
the fact that no such announcement was made regarding the views of a
given person who was excomunicated would be indicative that those veiws
were _not_ the cause of their excomunication. It would _NOT_ indicate
that they were correct, just that they were not the cause of the
excomunication.

Scott

On Sun, 27 Oct 2002 23:22:46 +, Jim Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
said:
 
 Great consideration is given regarding the confidentiality of the 
 decisions of a Church disciplinary council. No announcement is ever made 
 when a member is placed on formal probation. Decisions to disfellowship 
 or excommunicate are generally not announced publicly unless the 
 transgression is widely known, the transgressor's behavior constitutes a 
 threat to the Church or the community, or an announcement is necessary 
 to dispel rumors. Even when an announcement is made, it is limited to a 
 general statement of the outcome.  (M. Russell Ballard, Counseling with 
 Our Councils: Learning to Minister Together in the Church and in the 
 Family [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1997], 141 - 142.)

--  
Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as
down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own?
 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee)
 Web:   http://scott.themcgees.org/


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RE: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

2002-10-29 Thread Jim Cobabe

Scott McGee wrote:
---
Ok, question time. If a person is excomunicated due to them having 
taught false doctrine, is a statement from them renouncing the false 
doctrine required for their repentance?
---

If there is such a policy, I have not heard of it.

In my experience, the specific information relating to most disciplinary 
courts is never disclosed by the church, notwithstanding circumstances 
where you might think that some public straightening-out would be in 
order.  At the most, I have on occasion heard brief statements read in a 
local priesthood meeting, generally to the effect that so-and-so is no 
longer in fellowship with the church.  I have never heard of an 
excommunicated member being encouraged to make public statements, either 
to renounce the false teaching he might have been promoting or for any 
other reason.  In fact it would seem that the opposite approach is 
generally followed--excommunicated members are usually discouraged from 
publically discussing their problems or mistakes.  Those that air their 
dirty laundry seemingly tend to be continuing in open defiance against 
the counsel of local leaders, some going to extremes like holding press 
conferences or publishing books or articles exposing their supposedly 
unfair handling by ecclesiastical authorities.

Those who would repent and seek to have their membership restored seem 
to see this as a private matter, of which they have little desire to 
discuss publically.  

---
Mij Ebaboc

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Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

2002-10-29 Thread Paul Osborne
Ok, question time. If a person is excomunicated due to them having
taught
false doctrine


No one in this church can be excommunicated for simply teaching false
doctrine.

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

2002-10-29 Thread Paul Osborne
In fact it would seem that the opposite approach is 
generally followed--excommunicated members are usually discouraged from 
publically discussing their problems or mistakes


My last Stake President was excommunicated. Shortly after his
excommunication he being accompanied by the new Stake President visited
the priesthood quorums and the Relief Society to express his apologies. I
seem to remember he visited the youth too. 
He appeared to be very sorry but no longer towered with a spiritual aura
but appeared shrunken. It was evident that he did not have the Holy
Ghost. It was really strange.

Take heed brothers and sisters, any of us including the sanctified can
fall. And that means you! Watch and be on guard. Pray always and don't
give up. Satan has your number and he will work on you relentlessly. He
does with me and I'm having a hard time holding on as I'm going through
the fire of testing. Gadzooks, I will be glad when it's over--someday.

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

2002-10-29 Thread Jim Cobabe

Paul Osborne wrote:
---
No one in this church can be excommunicated for simply teaching false
doctrine.
---

Fortunate for me--I get it wrong nearly every time, and I wouldn't have 
lasted long in this church otherwise.  Tolerance is the virtual safety 
belt that lets us live with each other in our imperfections.

In fact I'm not sure we even take notice when false doctrine is 
preached, unless it somehow offends the sense of one of our own favorite 
issues.

---
Mij Ebaboc

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Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

2002-10-29 Thread John W. Redelfs
At 12:30 PM, Tuesday, 10/29/02, Paul Osborne wrote:

No one in this church can be excommunicated for simply teaching false
doctrine.


He can if he tries to convince others that it is Church doctrine.  Also, if 
he is teaching false doctrine, his priesthood leaders will ask him to 
stop.  And if he defiantly continues to expound the false teaching, he will 
be excommunicated.

We always need to keep in mind the difference between false doctrine and 
not doctrine.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

2002-10-29 Thread Marc A. Schindler
It depends on what's meant by teaching. If you are GD teacher and you let slip
a whopper in all innocence, no one's going to care, although you may be
corrected. But if you start doing it purposely, knowing it's against the core
doctrine of the Church (like, say, we should all go back to polygamy), you'll be
hauled up on your SP's carpet rate* some smartly, as my Nova Scotia family
members say.

*rate is really right, but that's how many Canadians pronounce it. Mark, Bonnie,
et. al., try saying right away quickly and see how it comes out.

Paul Osborne wrote:

 Ok, question time. If a person is excomunicated due to them having
 taught
 false doctrine

 No one in this church can be excommunicated for simply teaching false
 doctrine.

 Paul O
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

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Guns don’t kill people; people with guns kill people

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

2002-10-29 Thread Paul Osborne
It depends on what's meant by teaching. If you are GD teacher and you
let slip
a whopper in all innocence, no one's going to care, although you may be
corrected. But if you start doing it purposely, knowing it's against the
core
doctrine of the Church (like, say, we should all go back to polygamy),
you'll be
hauled up on your SP's carpet rate* some smartly, as my Nova Scotia
family
members say.


I don't care what the person taught--he or she cannot be excommunicated
for simply teaching false doctrine. But, if they continue in their
*disobedience* after having been admonished not to to teach false
doctrine they will undoubtedly find themselves under some sort of church
discipline which could lead to excommunication depending on the nature
and extent of their sin.

Polygamy? No thanks. I'm not going to get involved. 

;-)

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

2002-10-29 Thread Paul Osborne
I agree. You're an excellent reader and thanks for pointing out the
difference.

Paul O


On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:40:33 -0900 John W. Redelfs
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 At 12:30 PM, Tuesday, 10/29/02, Paul Osborne wrote:
 No one in this church can be excommunicated for simply teaching 
 false
 doctrine.
 
 He can if he tries to convince others that it is Church doctrine.  
 Also, if 
 he is teaching false doctrine, his priesthood leaders will ask him 
 to 
 stop.  And if he defiantly continues to expound the false teaching, 
 he will 
 be excommunicated.
 
 We always need to keep in mind the difference between false doctrine 
 and 
 not doctrine.


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Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

2002-10-29 Thread Valerie Nielsen Williams

On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:31:22 + Jim Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
 
 Paul Osborne wrote:
 ---
 No one in this church can be excommunicated for simply teaching 
 false
 doctrine.
 ---
 
 Fortunate for me--I get it wrong nearly every time, and I wouldn't 
 have 
 lasted long in this church otherwise.  Tolerance is the virtual 
 safety 
 belt that lets us live with each other in our imperfections.

This is absolutely right, Jim.

This reminds me of a young man we used to have in our ward.  He was
controversial to say the least.  In fact, JWR will probably know about
whom I am referring.  Anyway, he and his wife lived here for about 4
years while he got his PhD from ND.  During this time, many times in
Gospel Doctrine, he'd say something, or contend something that could
easily be construed as false doctrine.  However, our elder HP brethren
were always very gentle with this young man and would frequently pull him
off to the side after class and instruct correct principle with him.  It
was really beautiful to watch.  

Their last Sunday here was a Fast Sunday.  I was extremely sad to see
them go.  I love her like my own sister, but he was really special to
me--like a rebellious younger brother.  But our ward had embraced and
loved this young man. (I'm getting choked up thinking about it now!).  He
got up that last Sunday and thanked the ward for the fellowshipping he
and his family had received (they had two adorable little girls while
they lived here).  He said that this was the only ward where he had been
truly accepted and loved and that this would always be home--and it was
mutual.  

Then he said something that still makes me chuckle.  He said, I know
I've stirred things up a lot here.  I didn't mean to.  You see, we are
like the blind men, feeling their way around an elephant.  The gospel is
that elephant.  We all see different things with our hands.  Most all
of you are at the front of the elephant, and see the elephant the same
way.  Me--I'm at the rear.  It's the same elephant, but I have an
entirely different perspective than the mainstream.  Someday I hope I
find the front too. 

It was really touching.  He also said he was grateful for the love and
patience he and his family felt while they were here.  I cannot wait for
the day when I will see them again.

anyway
val

 
 In fact I'm not sure we even take notice when false doctrine is 
 preached, unless it somehow offends the sense of one of our own 
 favorite 
 issues.
 
 ---
 Mij Ebaboc
 

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Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

2002-10-29 Thread Marc A. Schindler
I wonder if you're talking about Tim. No need to answer that.

Valerie Nielsen Williams wrote:

 On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:31:22 + Jim Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 writes:
 
  Paul Osborne wrote:
  ---
  No one in this church can be excommunicated for simply teaching
  false
  doctrine.
  ---
 
  Fortunate for me--I get it wrong nearly every time, and I wouldn't
  have
  lasted long in this church otherwise.  Tolerance is the virtual
  safety
  belt that lets us live with each other in our imperfections.

 This is absolutely right, Jim.

 This reminds me of a young man we used to have in our ward.  He was
 controversial to say the least.  In fact, JWR will probably know about
 whom I am referring.  Anyway, he and his wife lived here for about 4
 years while he got his PhD from ND.  During this time, many times in
 Gospel Doctrine, he'd say something, or contend something that could
 easily be construed as false doctrine.  However, our elder HP brethren
 were always very gentle with this young man and would frequently pull him
 off to the side after class and instruct correct principle with him.  It
 was really beautiful to watch.

 Their last Sunday here was a Fast Sunday.  I was extremely sad to see
 them go.  I love her like my own sister, but he was really special to
 me--like a rebellious younger brother.  But our ward had embraced and
 loved this young man. (I'm getting choked up thinking about it now!).  He
 got up that last Sunday and thanked the ward for the fellowshipping he
 and his family had received (they had two adorable little girls while
 they lived here).  He said that this was the only ward where he had been
 truly accepted and loved and that this would always be home--and it was
 mutual.

 Then he said something that still makes me chuckle.  He said, I know
 I've stirred things up a lot here.  I didn't mean to.  You see, we are
 like the blind men, feeling their way around an elephant.  The gospel is
 that elephant.  We all see different things with our hands.  Most all
 of you are at the front of the elephant, and see the elephant the same
 way.  Me--I'm at the rear.  It's the same elephant, but I have an
 entirely different perspective than the mainstream.  Someday I hope I
 find the front too.

 It was really touching.  He also said he was grateful for the love and
 patience he and his family felt while they were here.  I cannot wait for
 the day when I will see them again.

 anyway
 val

 
  In fact I'm not sure we even take notice when false doctrine is
  preached, unless it somehow offends the sense of one of our own
  favorite
  issues.
 
  ---
  Mij Ebaboc
 
 
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Guns don’t kill people; people with guns kill people

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

2002-10-27 Thread Valerie Nielsen Williams
Noel:
After reading your response to John, I had a thought (I know,
scary thing).  Sometimes--in fact many times--in the scriptures and
doctrines of the church, one word does mean many different things.  For
example--salvation and exaltation.  Are they the same??  Sometimes
Salvation is used in a context to mean Exaltation but generally
speaking, and standing alone, they are not.

I think context is important as you make your list of relevant
scriptures.  For instance, we are gentiles.  Most of us have earth
origins that go back to Europe--or that is predominant in our genealogy. 
However, we are adopted into the tribes of Israel by our righteousness. 
That is what my patriarchal blessing tells me.  I am of the tribe of
Ephraim.  Am I a direct descendent of Ephraim?  I doubt it.  It's an
adoption thing.

In another context, the term gentile is meant to refer to the
worldly world--those who do not have the light of Christ. 

end of thoughts 
FWIW
val 

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RE: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

2002-10-27 Thread Noel Bennion

I agree that there can be multiple meanings across the realm of sacred
literature. I am not as interested in the dictionary meaning as I am in the
meaning of its particular use in scripture. I would be very easy to simply
say that, since gentile, for example,  as multiple meanings, I can ignore
the message relating to that group in the scripture. There are specific
promises and warnings to the Jews, gentiles and to the house of Israel in
the scriptures. There are also messages about timing relative to the
reception of the gospel. Each of us must choose where we want to spend our
time.

Right now, my original questions have particular interest to me. Given the
well-seasoned gospel veterans on this list, I probably sound quite
elementary. Sorry, sometimes for a slow learner like myself, I must take
slow deliberate steps and build 'line upon line'

Thanks for your insights,

Noel

Larry Jackson wrote:

Gentile has several meanings. The dictionary meaning
is anyone who is not a Jew. So when Jew and Gentile
are spoken of, many members fall into the Gentile group.

Gentile also is sometimes used to refer to those who are
not members of the Church. So when Saint and Gentile
are spoken of, members do not fall into the Gentile group.

So sometimes members are gentiles, and sometimes
they are not.

Larry Jackson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

2002-10-27 Thread Noel Bennion
Val,
You hit the issue on the head. In one context, a word has a particular
meaning, in another something different. But, after the first scratch of the
surface, I can see that there are definite patterns. For example, in 1st
Nephi chapters 13-15, one can see a pattern of pre-restoration (1st Nephi
13:1-33), restoration ( 1st Nephi 13:34-42) and post restoration (1st Nephi
14) designations of gentiles. As can be expected, the restoration and
post-restoration are, I believe, inclusive of the members of the church.
That approach makes sense to me based of the blessings bestowed in the last
two sections relative to the Gentiles. It is also appropriate to consider
the warnings in those sections to be applicable to the members of the church
 Hope that helps.

Noel

---Original Message---

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sunday, October 27, 2002 3:39:50 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

Noel:
After reading your response to John, I had a thought (I know,
scary thing). Sometimes--in fact many times--in the scriptures and
doctrines of the church, one word does mean many different things. For
example--salvation and exaltation. Are they the same?? Sometimes
Salvation is used in a context to mean Exaltation but generally
speaking, and standing alone, they are not.

I think context is important as you make your list of relevant
scriptures. For instance, we are gentiles. Most of us have earth
origins that go back to Europe--or that is predominant in our genealogy.
However, we are adopted into the tribes of Israel by our righteousness.
That is what my patriarchal blessing tells me. I am of the tribe of
Ephraim. Am I a direct descendent of Ephraim? I doubt it. It's an
adoption thing.

In another context, the term gentile is meant to refer to the
worldly world--those who do not have the light of Christ.

end of thoughts
FWIW
val

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RE: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

2002-10-27 Thread Jim Cobabe

Israel is covenant-founded, temple-based, and Christ-centered. The work 
of Jesus Christ is the reason the covenant of Abraham exists. The 
Abrahamic covenant, which is the covenant of Israel, is in every way as 
significant in the last days as it was in any age of the past.

Jesus Christ is the Savior of all nations, yet by heavenly design and 
divine intent, he was born into the  of  through the house of David. 
Although he is God of the whole earth, he is precisely the Holy One of 
Israel.

The arrangement of nations and races is the work of the Lord, according 
to his foreknowledge and our own premortal existence. Thus God has a 
hand in the development of history.

The Abrahamic covenant is a prototype or manifestation of the work and 
mission of Jesus Christ. Just as Jesus was an Israelite but extends his 
Atonement to all nations, so also the Abrahamic covenant is centered in 
Israel but has provisions for reaching out to all nations. The covenant 
incorporates priesthood, the Holy Ghost, baptism, eternal marriage, 
posterity, land, and a blessing for all nations.

 The literal, biological descendants of Abraham have a natural right to 
the priesthood and the fullness of the gospel of Christ. Ephraim holds 
the birthright, or keys of presidency, in the last days.

Jesus deliberately limited his personal ministry, both before and after 
his Resurrection, to those nations biologically of Israel. Jesus 
manifests himself to the Gentiles through the Holy Ghost, as they are 
taught the gospel by prophets who are of the house of Israel.

The Gentile nations can obtain the blessings of the gospel through the 
preaching of the prophets of Israel. Whether one is Gentile or 
Israelite, the only way to obtain the blessings of the Abrahamic 
covenant is by faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism, receiving the 
Holy Ghost, priesthood, and so forth.

The house of Israel has been scattered over all the world, among all 
nations; therefore, most nations today have the blood of Israel in their 
veins to some extent or another.

Latter-day Saints are for the most part biologically descended from 
Joseph through Ephraim and Manasseh. As descendants of Joseph, the 
members of the Church have a responsibility in the last days to feed the 
world the bread of life, that is, the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Joseph Smith was a legal heir to the priesthood and the keys of 
presidency through his lineage of Ephraim.

As far as individual salvation is concerned, a Gentile can be saved in 
the celestial kingdom as an Israelite can, but the process for the 
Gentile is to obtain the gospel through the agency of Israelite prophets 
and teachers.

A primary purpose of the gathering is for building temples so that 
sacred ordinances essential for salvation may be administered. The 
building of temples is an indication that the blood of Israel is present 
in the land. That truth is especially noteworthy in view of the temples 
being built in Asia (Japan, Taiwan, Korea, Hong Kong, the Philippines, 
and so forth).

The holy scriptures are Israel's witness for Jesus Christ and will 
eventually consist of records of the Jews, the Nephites, and the ten 
tribes.

The tribes of Judah, Joseph, and Levi were each given special 
responsibilities of long-lasting significance, which will be fulfilled 
when Israel is restored to the lands of their inheritance.

The restoration of Israel in the last days is much more extensive than a 
mere gathering and is a work many times larger than the exodus from 
Egypt in Moses' time. The promises of restoration are beginning to be 
fulfilled even now but will not be fully accomplished until well into 
the Millennium.

 The gathering progresses through various phases. The first phase was to 
midwestern America and then to the Rocky Mountains. Currently the 
gathering is to the stakes of Zion wherever they may be. Other phases 
will come in their time.

To be engaged in the gathering and restoration of Israel was described 
by the Prophet Joseph Smith as being on the pathway to eternal fame and 
immortal glory.


 (Robert J. Matthews, Selected Writings of Robert J. Matthews: Gospel 
Scholars Series [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1999], 581.)

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RE: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?

2002-10-27 Thread Jim Cobabe

Great consideration is given regarding the confidentiality of the 
decisions of a Church disciplinary council. No announcement is ever made 
when a member is placed on formal probation. Decisions to disfellowship 
or excommunicate are generally not announced publicly unless the 
transgression is widely known, the transgressor's behavior constitutes a 
threat to the Church or the community, or an announcement is necessary 
to dispel rumors. Even when an announcement is made, it is limited to a 
general statement of the outcome.  (M. Russell Ballard, Counseling with 
Our Councils: Learning to Minister Together in the Church and in the 
Family [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1997], 141 - 142.)

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