Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
Paul Everitt wrote: [snip] > As the person that made the decision, I can at least testify that no > ulterior motives were behind it. Still, Zope is a community thing, and > we here at DC need our heads bopped on a regular basis, lest we ever > forget it. > > Consider our heads bopped. :^) And this is why I like and trust DC. You realize your heads get bopped. :) As long as you do, even if you do continue to disagree with that weird Martijn Faassen guy, I have no big worries. As long as the community keeps learning (DC included), we're fine. And-now-back-to-our-whining-about-Perl-ly yours, Martijn ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
Martijn Pieters wrote: [snip] > Now, please, can we stop this whole silly argument? Can't we talk about old > terminal types or something, instead? That invocation only works on comp.lang.python. :) Regards, Martijn ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
Oleg Broytmann wrote: > > Where do you intend on going? If there was something better out there > > you'd be humping its leg already. > >Thanks goodness, I am not using Zope on production servers. I use Zope > only to experiments and understand the technology. Looked good until > yesterday. This is an overreaction. :) Zope still only uses Python in the core (with some C thrown in to support the Python). This won't change. I don't even think it *can* be changed; Perl product support would probably be such a pain in the neck that even Jim Fulton would say it's 'difficult' (and not just 'tricky', which is Fultonese for 'very difficult' already). [snip] >Of course, if perl wouldn't hurt Zope as much as I am afraid, I'll > return to considering to use Zope on production servers. I don't think Perl will hurt Zope a lot. My main worry is that some part of the Zope python sources will have to be less clean in order to get Perl support. Along with weird side effects that may occur. But, since that source is open source, if it becomes too messy, someone will eventually stand up and clean it up. The more I look at DTML the more I want to clean *that* up, or better yet, reimplement it, and at one point, given time... Regards, Martijn ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
Roman wrote: > Perhaps this is a disadvantage to the DC company-owned open-source > project model. They will make bad decisions based on potential > profit. I wanted to address this specifically. This is, in the abstract, a legitimate concern that comes up repeatedly about Netscape/Mozilla. Obviously that kind of model has some tremendous benefits, namely paid resources and clarity of vision. At the same time, though, there is the potential for abuse. As the person that made the decision, I can at least testify that no ulterior motives were behind it. Still, Zope is a community thing, and we here at DC need our heads bopped on a regular basis, lest we ever forget it. Consider our heads bopped. :^) --Paul ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
On Fri, May 26, 2000 at 02:55:52PM +, Oleg Broytmann wrote: >Thanks goodness, I am not using Zope on production servers. I use Zope > only to experiments and understand the technology. Looked good until > yesterday. >On production servers I use pure Python CGIs powered by ZTemplates. I > think I can add ZPublisher and PersistentCGI without diving into full Zope. > >Of course, if perl wouldn't hurt Zope as much as I am afraid, I'll > return to considering to use Zope on production servers. (Most of my sites > are not interactive - just a "picture"; but there is one that during its > development through last year became finally highly interactive; the site > looks like first candidate for Zope and PTK and other Products). Sorry, if you are giving up this quick I won't stop you, nor miss you. Zope is a growing platform, and people (not just DC) will add support for more and more technologies. There is support now for SQL (in many diffrent dialects), Python, DTML, XML, XML-RPC, LDAP IMAP, SMTP and goodness knows what. Do you know them all? Darn, I don't even know if above list is complete! Soon XSLT, SOAP and Perl will join the list. Many more will follow. If an employer is going to demand from you that you know all of the above or you're out of a job, well, there are plenty of good jobs out there. And good Zope skills will come in handy to find a nice job. Knowing a little Perl won't hurt either, BTW. It's all a question of perspective and profesionalism. Now, please, can we stop this whole silly argument? Can't we talk about old terminal types or something, instead? -- Martijn Pieters | Software Engineermailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Digital Creations http://www.digicool.com/ | Creators of Zope http://www.zope.org/ | The Open Source Web Application Server - ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
Ken Manheimer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On 25 May 2000, Roman Milner wrote: > > > Well, my point is that I don't think you will be able to ignore it. > > Your boss will give you a product to maintain that includes someone > > else's perl code - sooner or later. My boss isn't going to suddenly tell me that I'm now either a perl developer or unemployed, because he hired me for my judgement & decision skills as well as my keyboard pounding skills. If your boss didn't hire you for that reason - well, its an excellent time to be a skilled IT worker looking for a job. & if your boss doesn't value your intelligence and also wants you to suddenly hack perl, then your boss didn't read your resume. & to reinforce what Ken says: > For all of you that love Python, and testify to either leaving perl > with great relief or not being willing to learn it in the first place > - why don't you trust your judgement? It's also an even more excellent time to be a sklled Zopista looking for a job. Find a good place looking to start a Zope project, build them a site, & you'll be deciding whether to use Perl products or not. I can understand the fear of dilluting a good clean python/C environment with evil dirty perl, but if I didn't think that a Zope environment will continue to be a good place to be, I'd already have a different email address. -- Karl Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
On Sat, 27 May 2000, Andrew Kenneth Milton wrote: > | > So, I believe this is enough reason for me to start considering other > | > web technologies for me, and my company. > | > |I am considering dismounting the Zope bandwagon, too :( It was good > | techonology, but what will come? > > Where do you intend on going? If there was something better out there > you'd be humping its leg already. Thanks goodness, I am not using Zope on production servers. I use Zope only to experiments and understand the technology. Looked good until yesterday. On production servers I use pure Python CGIs powered by ZTemplates. I think I can add ZPublisher and PersistentCGI without diving into full Zope. Of course, if perl wouldn't hurt Zope as much as I am afraid, I'll return to considering to use Zope on production servers. (Most of my sites are not interactive - just a "picture"; but there is one that during its development through last year became finally highly interactive; the site looks like first candidate for Zope and PTK and other Products). Oleg.(All opinions are mine and not of my employer) Oleg Broytmann Foundation for Effective Policies [EMAIL PROTECTED] Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
+[ Oleg Broytmann ]- | | > So, I believe this is enough reason for me to start considering other | > web technologies for me, and my company. | |I am considering dismounting the Zope bandwagon, too :( It was good | techonology, but what will come? Where do you intend on going? If there was something better out there you'd be humping its leg already. -- Totally Holistic Enterprises Internet| P:+61 7 3870 0066 | Andrew Milton The Internet (Aust) Pty Ltd | F:+61 7 3870 4477 | ACN: 082 081 472 | M:+61 416 022 411 | Carpe Daemon PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068|[EMAIL PROTECTED]| ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
On 25 May 2000, Roman Milner wrote: > Here is why I'm bummed about this. Like other people who have posted > - after years of coding perl for money, I have vowed never to do it > again. (I find that it produces encourages unmaintainable code.) > Also, I think my main marketable skill now is Zope. So, were I to > want to find a different job now coding Zope - perl will be expected > to be in my skill set. Other companies using zope will almost > certainly have perl methods laying around that need to be maintained. > So, basically, in order to find a job using zope - I'll have to > relearn, and code in perl at that job. Exactly! > So, I believe this is enough reason for me to start considering other > web technologies for me, and my company. I am considering dismounting the Zope bandwagon, too :( It was good techonology, but what will come? Oleg.(All opinions are mine and not of my employer) Oleg Broytmann Foundation for Effective Policies [EMAIL PROTECTED] Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
Andrew Kenneth Milton wrote: [...] > The sad fact of the matter is that there is more concern for people's > personal welfare, than that of the project as a whole. When in fact, what > is good for Zope is good for the community. > > Zope is open source, if you don't like Perl, and it morally offends > you, branch the code and keep your own Python-only version running. If > you don't think this is feasible, ask yourself why, and then rethink why > other language support in Zope is a GoodThing(tm) (TCL ? mmm acs integration) OK, let's look at the issue of fragmentation...(this is one of my larger concerns). Right now DC is adamant about the being no perl products. But, as you say, it is Open, so one can branch and fragment. Now, let's do some math. How much larger is the perl community; let's be honest, they are at least an order of magnitude larger). So, let us _assume_ that as some are predicting, we get this huge influx of perlers, and their concomitant perl-method based apps. We are then confronted with the situation where we have the majority of users demanding perl products, so they can stay in the land of perl and zope. Will DC remain as strong? Likely, IMO. But, as you say, the code is open. So, they branch the code, and start maintaining their own. Guess what happens to the userbase and developerbase from perl? That would be it wavig goodbye, or perhaps thats not awave As I have said, I have a fair amount of confidence in DC's refusal to include perl products. But, I also am fully aware that either they will cave in, or their perlers we reportedly would gain would fork, and add it on their own, thus abandoning the rest of us, and gainig us very little, if anything in the meantime. Unless python supplants perl as the dominant language in the world of scripting for the web, the forked verison will always win in a marketing contest, as long as it has what the 'Real Zope' has, nad has the perl stuff ours doesn't. In the world of marketing, more is better. In order to avoid this, it will take significant effort on the part of DC, and us users and developers. Basically, python will have to be considered a 'first class' citizen (to borrow a phrase ;-), and perl will have to remain a second-class citizen at best, and this will have to be tactfully, yet unquestionably made known. Can or Will this be done? I guess we will see, won't we? These are not the fearfull meanderings of a Python Nerd, but observations of history, and trends. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
> Actually, I'd like to see Zope interface with "more" languages (Java, C++ > etc.) There are a number of areas that Python performs poorly (I'd prefer > to write encryption algorithms in C, personally) and there are areas where > Python performs very well (OO modelling). I think if people are upset that It comes down to a combination of using the right tool for the right job with a little bit of personal preference thrown in. Zope, through Python, already supports C. I personally don't like C very much, but I use it and it has certain advantages over other compiled languages - in an ideal world I'd do compiled coding in something like Modula-2, but it just isn't practical from a portability and support front. > they may have to extend their knowledge base to be Zope "experts" than this > is a little silly. Do I have to be an Oracle/MySQL/SyBase/etc. to know > Zope. No - I benefit from Zope being able to handle all of these database > sources. If someone has written a Zope product that "works" I really don't > care what language it's in (ok, I "do," but not entirely :). If it's broken Exactly :-) For me personally, the implementation language of Zope is completely immaterial - it could be written in Cobol, Prolog or Forth but if it does exactly what it does at the moment I would still use it and enjoy it because it has so much power. When Simon and Chris in the office introduced me to Zope, the internals didn't matter - there was so much potential lurking on the outside, I just couldn't be anything but impressed. Zope is seriously cool stuff. I'd never touched a line of Python at the time, though I quickly learnt it from a curiosity point of view (remember, I was/still am a Perl coder). It wasn't useful at the time, but it has been since. > eventually port them over if Python will make them better. And, if not, > there are books on Perl that would enable a relatively competent Python > programmer to hack their way through it. The thing is, if you are a reasonable to good programmer in one language, there's no reason why you can't pick up another language easily - in fact, it's very good practice to learn new languages even if you end up putting them to one side after a few weeks/months and go back to your language of choice. In some ways, going from a rigid (and I mean that in a nice way, just couldn't think of a better word) language such as Python that enforces good programming habits will make it easier for you to be a good programmer in a less-rigid language such as Perl. Pascal or Modula-2 to C or C++ is a much easier transition than the other way around because you've learnt the good programming habits from the start and have trained your mind not to abuse the darker side of C. When people ask me what's a good language to learn programming with, something like Python or Pascal is usually my first answer, C isn't even though it may be in more widespread use than Pascal. *phew* And some people think computing is dull ;-) John -- John Chandler / Software Developer / New Information Paradigms Ltd [ Linux in the office, AmigaOS in the home, PalmOS in the pocket ] The opinions above aren't those of my company... ...but then, they aren't really mine either. ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
Roman Milner wrote: > For zope, you will just have to > "know zope" - employers will see "zope" and a language just like > parents see "understanding computers" as knowing how to fix their windows > boxes :) I feel like I "know zope", but I don't have a deep understanding of python, or a comprehensive grasp of how it handles SQL. Indeed, I'm not particularly fond of relational databases- but I think that's a phobia, and I'll get over it soon enough. > We have a lot of former perl coders here and they won't be able to > resist the new fancy perl methods. And within a short while we will > have a body code dung. A body code dung? I can't possibly see how Perl Methods are going to lead to some imagined core source corruption. If a method is availiable in perl, so what? I mean, all of these "Methods" are going to have to talk the same way to the zope machinery. If you want to leave a Perl Method as a black box, then nothing should stop you. The very nature of Methods means that no-one is going to write PerlOffice in a single method. If someone has a substantial investment in Perl, and they want to keep that as an External Method in order transition to Zope, then they should be able to. It has been a barrier to the adoption of Zope more than once, I would imagine. One of the big stumbling blocks for me, in my adoption of zope, is that it "forced" me to do it with python or not at all. > Perhaps this is a disadvantage to the DC company-owned open-source > project model. They will make bad decisions based on potential > profit. This is a complete slam, and totally unjustified. ZOPE means "The Z Object Publishing System". publishing Perl methods as objects is just as valid as publishing any other kind of object. It is an open source project, with all the benifits thereof. If you really feel that it needs to be "OPOPS", the Only Python Object Publishing System, and that any non-python object is anathema, go right ahead. > I don't buy this bit about being able to access 1000's of wonderful > perl modules. Most people that I know who have made the switched at > how much better the python library is the perl's. So fine. Be confident in your language, and assume that people will transition to python as they move in to using zope. > Sorry for being a tad emotional here. I'm sure I will calm down - > it's just that yesterday I was one of the most adamant Zope evangelist > around. Today... Today you're taking one of the logical consequences in the development of an object publishing system and turning it into something that it's really not. The reality of web publishing is that people use a variety of tools and languages to accomplish their goals, and any object publishing system that wants to be worthy of the name needs to play nicely with as many as possible. opinions-are-mine-ly yours, ethan mindlace fremen Zopista Community Liason ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
+[ Roman Milner ]- | | Well, I don't think that analogy applies directly. People will ask, | "do you know zope", and in order to say yes - I will need to know | perl. The answer "yes except for the perl bits" won't fly with an | employer. | | Linux is different. Saying "I know linux" generally means | you know how to administer it - not how to code in every language | available to it. Do you know UNIX? "Only the Linux bits" is that your answer? I wouldn't hire you based on that. Zope is to UNIX, not to Linux. Nearly everything you want to deal with in the IT industry is fragmented. Do you know C? (ANSI and K&R ?) If someone wants you to maintain Perl code they will specifically ask about Perl, the way they will specifically ask about Solaris or HPUX not just UNIX (although they might if they think you actually have the capacity to apply your skills to another variant). The sad fact of the matter is that there is more concern for people's personal welfare, than that of the project as a whole. When in fact, what is good for Zope is good for the community. Zope is open source, if you don't like Perl, and it morally offends you, branch the code and keep your own Python-only version running. If you don't think this is feasible, ask yourself why, and then rethink why other language support in Zope is a GoodThing(tm) (TCL ? mmm acs integration) -- Totally Holistic Enterprises Internet| P:+61 7 3870 0066 | Andrew Milton The Internet (Aust) Pty Ltd | F:+61 7 3870 4477 | ACN: 082 081 472 | M:+61 416 022 411 | Carpe Daemon PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068|[EMAIL PROTECTED]| ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
>>> Ken Manheimer wrote > (Do you think the perl folks are, conversely, going to feel they have > to know python? I have to say, i esteem python enough to think that > the ultimate result will be increasing prevalence and preference for > python.) I think it's fair to say that I'm not one of perl's biggest fans. Initially when I read about this, I was a bit concerned - it did seem like it was leading down a bad scary path. After thinking about it some more, I'm still a bit concerned, but I also think that this will be a nice bit of bait to use when hooking in new developers. If it including building Products in Perl, I'd be a bit more concerned, since one of the Really Nice things about Zope is the available Products, and just how easy they are to read and work with. Perl Products would be... um... unpleasant. But I've seen no indication that this is happening. Anthony ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
On 25 May 2000, Roman Milner wrote: > > "KM" == Ken Manheimer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > KM> I have some misgivings with this outlook. It sounds like > KM> people who seek job security by having expertise with a system > KM> that closes out unfamiliar options - whether the options are > KM> better or worse. > > I'm not in any way unfamiliar with perl. If this had been a language > that I didn't know or, or any technology that I didn't know - I > would have an opened mind. I've been down the perl road, and have made a > personal choice never to do it again. I should have used "unwelcome" instead of "unfamiliar" in that sentence - i tried to say that in a number of ways, eg: Me> For all of you that love Python, and testify to either leaving perl Me> with great relief or not being willing to learn it in the first place > [...] > I think that anyone who wants to claim Zope expertise will need to > know and be willing to code in perl. I dunno. There may be some Zope jobs where knowing perl would be necessary, but there may also be some jobs where knowing XML, SQL, XLST(?), WebDAV, the ZODB, SSL, LDAP, Oracle, medusa, C, *all* sorts of things would be necessary. Maybe you're proficient with all those things - i'm not! The thing is, Zope is an extensible ORB whose primary purpose in life is to connect disparate things together - you shouldn't need to be proficient with every aspect of it, in order to have mastery with it. I guess i can understand being uncomfortable with seeing a transition from a somewhat closed, very attractive (python) world to a more wide-open one that includes less attractive elements. Nonetheless, i really think this ultimately means that your zope skills are going to be more valuable, whether or not they include the perl aspect, because zope as a whole will have wider acceptance, a firmer place in the world. (Do you think the perl folks are, conversely, going to feel they have to know python? I have to say, i esteem python enough to think that the ultimate result will be increasing prevalence and preference for python.) Ken Manheimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
Actually, I'd like to see Zope interface with "more" languages (Java, C++ etc.) There are a number of areas that Python performs poorly (I'd prefer to write encryption algorithms in C, personally) and there are areas where Python performs very well (OO modelling). I think if people are upset that they may have to extend their knowledge base to be Zope "experts" than this is a little silly. Do I have to be an Oracle/MySQL/SyBase/etc. to know Zope. No - I benefit from Zope being able to handle all of these database sources. If someone has written a Zope product that "works" I really don't care what language it's in (ok, I "do," but not entirely :). If it's broken then I'll fix/extend/rewrite it. The fact that we can leverage Perl resources now and port them over time (if it even makes sense to do so) is beneficial. If it ain't broke... Of course, there are many Perl apps out there that would benefit greatly from the Zope environment and people will eventually port them over if Python will make them better. And, if not, there are books on Perl that would enable a relatively competent Python programmer to hack their way through it. Just my $0.02 worth. Mike ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
> "KM" == Ken Manheimer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: KM> I have some misgivings with this outlook. It sounds like KM> people who seek job security by having expertise with a system KM> that closes out unfamiliar options - whether the options are KM> better or worse. I'm not in any way unfamiliar with perl. If this had been a language that I didn't know or, or any technology that I didn't know - I would have an opened mind. I've been down the perl road, and have made a personal choice never to do it again. KM> For all of you that love Python, and testify to either leaving KM> perl with great relief or not being willing to learn it in the KM> first place - why don't you trust your judgement? Python KM> *does* offer better a better foundation for persistence, KM> acquisition, general object-oriented applications, etc - you KM> should not be frightened of a level, open zope playing field KM> that admits both python and perl! Yes, *I* should. I'm trying to make the point that it's nieve to believe that I will be able to just ignore the perl bits. Yes, I can avoid writing anything original in perl but sooner or later, if I'm working with zope, I will be asked to do something with one of the perl methods. They are going to be prevalent and hard to avoid. So, if my goal is to entirely avoid maintaining perl code, I will have to avoid Zope. KM> I never really learned C - but that doesn't mean i won't use KM> other people's C extensions! Many many people have found KM> Python to be the best way to get acquainted with Java, with KM> jpython - and i wonder how many java folks got turned on to KM> python's advantages, though the ability to use java KM> interactively via jpython. Access to other languages via KM> python isn't a problem, it's a solution - why should it be any KM> different with Zope? I wouldn't mind using someone else's perl module either. But it just isn't going to be limited to that. Developers get hit by buses, and managers assign the code to other people. I think that anyone who wants to claim Zope expertise will need to know and be willing to code in perl. ^Roman ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
On 25 May 2000, Roman Milner wrote: > Well, my point is that I don't think you will be able to ignore it. > Your boss will give you a product to maintain that includes someone > else's perl code - sooner or later. Since it is "part of zope" and you > clearly "know zope" you should be able to maintain it. > > I'm not talking about maintaining zope itself. I'm talking about > maintaining web sites that use zope. I have some misgivings with this outlook. It sounds like people who seek job security by having expertise with a system that closes out unfamiliar options - whether the options are better or worse. For all of you that love Python, and testify to either leaving perl with great relief or not being willing to learn it in the first place - why don't you trust your judgement? Python *does* offer better a better foundation for persistence, acquisition, general object-oriented applications, etc - you should not be frightened of a level, open zope playing field that admits both python and perl! If you don't feel python is better, just what you prefer, then you should be happy to have the additional power of perl (and it's community) available to you without having to leave your favorite language! It's a win in either case. (And zope will never be an entirely level playing field, because python and C *will* continue to serve as the foundation for Zope. Oleg, your refutation of that has the smell of casting Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt - treating digital creations with some serious and, i think, unwarranted disrespect, if i may say.) I also think these objections are contrary to one of the principle reasons that python itself is so attractive - it's a glue language, after all. It enables people to use facilities from other languages, without having to get their hands dirty with them. I never really learned C - but that doesn't mean i won't use other people's C extensions! Many many people have found Python to be the best way to get acquainted with Java, with jpython - and i wonder how many java folks got turned on to python's advantages, though the ability to use java interactively via jpython. Access to other languages via python isn't a problem, it's a solution - why should it be any different with Zope? Personally, i suspect that it's much less likely that someone will switch from python to perl than the reverse, perhaps a sign of my own python bigotry - but if you're similarly inclined, once again, i think you should appreciate the advantages of this new open door. Ken Manheimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
> "HK" == Hannu Krosing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: HK> Some of its most significant features (Aquiition, HK> ExtensionClass) are even written in C and mess with guts of HK> python interpreter. HK> See for example PostgreSQL - it has C, SQL, PL/SQL, TCL, Perl, HK> Ruby and soon python as its server-side programming languages, HK> with no real argument about weather to include yet another HK> language - if you dont want/need/know how to use it you just HK> ignore it ;) And it was originally written in lisp ;-9 Well, my point is that I don't think you will be able to ignore it. Your boss will give you a product to maintain that includes someone else's perl code - sooner or later. Since it is "part of zope" and you clearly "know zope" you should be able to maintain it. I'm not talking about maintaining zope itself. I'm talking about maintaining web sites that use zope. ^Roman ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
Kevin Dangoor wrote: > > > I haven't heard of anyone standing up and saying "I'm not going to use > Linux, because people might write tools in perl [or awk, or C, or lisp, or > sh, or yacc or postscript, or ...]" Perhaps that's a better way to look at > Zope... not as a python web application, but as a high-level OS extension > for dynamic web applications. The metaphore seems quite right! Some of its most significant features (Aquiition, ExtensionClass) are even written in C and mess with guts of python interpreter. See for example PostgreSQL - it has C, SQL, PL/SQL, TCL, Perl, Ruby and soon python as its server-side programming languages, with no real argument about weather to include yet another language - if you dont want/need/know how to use it you just ignore it ;) And it was originally written in lisp ;-9 - Hannu ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
> "KD" == Kevin Dangoor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: KD> I think Zope offers a ton of features that I wouldn't want to KD> give up. (And I've been watching what the other servers out KD> there are doing, and I still appreciate the power given by KD> Zope.) I don't question at all that zope is awesome. KD> I haven't heard of anyone standing up and saying "I'm not KD> going to use Linux, because people might write tools in perl KD> [or awk, or C, or lisp, or sh, or yacc or postscript, or ...]" KD> Perhaps that's a better way to look at Zope... not as a python KD> web application, but as a high-level OS extension for dynamic KD> web applications. Well, I don't think that analogy applies directly. People will ask, "do you know zope", and in order to say yes - I will need to know perl. The answer "yes except for the perl bits" won't fly with an employer. Linux is different. Saying "I know linux" generally means you know how to administer it - not how to code in every language available to it. When looking for a coding job - they hire based on what language you know - not what OS. For zope, you will just have to "know zope" - employers will see "zope" and a language just like parents see "understanding computers" as knowing how to fix their windows boxes :) We have a lot of former perl coders here and they won't be able to resist the new fancy perl methods. And within a short while we will have a body code dung. Perhaps this is a disadvantage to the DC company-owned open-source project model. They will make bad decisions based on potential profit. XEmacs has managed to fend of perl (and python) support. I have heard close to the same argument there that I have made here, basically. Another language adds little benefit and much complexity for someone who will have to maintain code on the platform. I don't buy this bit about being able to access 1000's of wonderful perl modules. Most people that I know who have made the switched at how much better the python library is the perl's. ^Roman Sorry for being a tad emotional here. I'm sure I will calm down - it's just that yesterday I was one of the most adamant Zope evangelist around. Today... ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
- Original Message - From: "Roman Milner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 1:48 PM Subject: [Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed > Here is why I'm bummed about this. Like other people who have posted > - after years of coding perl for money, I have vowed never to do it > again. (I find that it produces encourages unmaintainable code.) > Also, I think my main marketable skill now is Zope. So, were I to > want to find a different job now coding Zope - perl will be expected > to be in my skill set. Other companies using zope will almost > certainly have perl methods laying around that need to be maintained. > So, basically, in order to find a job using zope - I'll have to > relearn, and code in perl at that job. > > So, I believe this is enough reason for me to start considering other > web technologies for me, and my company. I think Zope offers a ton of features that I wouldn't want to give up. (And I've been watching what the other servers out there are doing, and I still appreciate the power given by Zope.) It's a fact of web programming that there are lots of tools written in different languages. CORBA, XML-RPC and SOAP all provide glue between languages today. It's certainly possible you could come across someone who has applications written in several different languages that use one or more of these technologies to talk to each other... Adding PerlMethods just adds another interface... one that can potentially expand the Zope user base quite dramatically. Not to mention the possibility of tying in to some of the vast amounts Perl code that already exists out there. I haven't heard of anyone standing up and saying "I'm not going to use Linux, because people might write tools in perl [or awk, or C, or lisp, or sh, or yacc or postscript, or ...]" Perhaps that's a better way to look at Zope... not as a python web application, but as a high-level OS extension for dynamic web applications. Kevin ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
[Zope] Re: [Zope-Annce] ANN: Perl For Zope - why I'm bummed
Here is why I'm bummed about this. Like other people who have posted - after years of coding perl for money, I have vowed never to do it again. (I find that it produces encourages unmaintainable code.) Also, I think my main marketable skill now is Zope. So, were I to want to find a different job now coding Zope - perl will be expected to be in my skill set. Other companies using zope will almost certainly have perl methods laying around that need to be maintained. So, basically, in order to find a job using zope - I'll have to relearn, and code in perl at that job. So, I believe this is enough reason for me to start considering other web technologies for me, and my company. ^Roman > "PE" == Paul Everitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: PE> Howdy gang. Below is an announcement that we'll start PE> distributing over the next 24 hours. I wanted to let you PE> folks see it first. In summary: Perl Methods. PE> This isn't a press release, which we'll be doing in the run-up PE> to the O'Reilly Open Source conference in July, when the code PE> is closer to being available. PE> --- PE> Digital Creations, creators of the Open Source Zope PE> application server, announced today that it is teaming with PE> ActiveState, a leading provider of Internet programming PE> software, to make Perl a scripting language for Zope. PE> Perl is the predominant scripting language for Internet PE> applications and is a key success story for the Open Source PE> software movement. Zope is written in Python, the fastest PE> growing Open Source scripting language. PE> "It is clear that the strength of Zope realizes the future PE> architecture of the Web," says Paul Everitt, CEO of Digital PE> Creations. "This dynamic architecture, and the people working PE> with it, are a fantastic match for scripting languages. Thus PE> it is natural that Digital Creations would team with PE> ActiveState to make Perl a scripting language for Zope." PE> "Zope is a powerful content management system that we use PE> internally," said Dick Hardt, CEO of ActiveState. "By adding PE> the power of Perl to Zope, we will be able to leverage all the PE> existing Perl technology that we have as well as bring the PE> worlds of Python and Perl closer together." PE> Under this agreement, ActiveState will get Python and Perl to PE> run in the same application. More specifically, Perl PE> programmers can code critical pieces of business logic in Zope PE> solutions. PE> "The Perl for Zope project brings the worlds of the two most PE> important open source programming languages together," stated PE> Gisle Aas, Senior Developer, ActiveState. "Python programmers PE> will be able to directly take advantage of the large PE> collection of reusable Perl program modules, like DBI, found PE> on CPAN. Perl programmers will be able to program and PE> customize the Zope web application server using their favorite PE> language." PE> The initial developer release of Perl For Zope will coincide PE> with the O'Reilly Open Source Software Convention in July PE> 2000. For more information on the project, please visit the PE> Perl For Zope project page at PE> http://www.zope.org/Wikis/zope-perl/. PE> Contact Information PE> For Digital Creations, contact Paul Everitt, PE> [EMAIL PROTECTED], 540.371.6909x102. For ActiveState, contact PE> Lori Pike, [EMAIL PROTECTED], 604.713.8433. PE> --Paul PE> Paul Everitt Digital Creations [EMAIL PROTECTED] 540.371.6909 PE> - The Open Source Zope PE> application server http://www.zope.org/ PE> - PE> ___ Zope-Announce PE> maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] PE> http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce No cross PE> posts or HTML encoding! (Related lists - Users: PE> http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope Developer: PE> http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
