Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?
I have a lot of time and exposure to Tomcat so it made it easy for me to run those tests (BTW, now in production, on the same machine Zope is about 3 times faster!) but none really with PHP or Mason. In the end of the day, though, as most of the people have been saying on this list, you really shouldn't be focusing on comparing the raw speed of two totally different applications with different feature sets. I would challenge you to find something as powerful /useful / extendable as Zope written in any language and if you did, we could run those benchmarks. What I *would* suggest focusing on is can Zope provide you with the right amount of features and functionality and can you scale it? So, and god willing, your site that you build in Zope goes from 0-1,000,000 hits a day, can you handle it? The answer is yes (a mix of Pentium, 256 MB Ram and fast drives with Linux will do that). What about if you double that or go to 10,000,000 a day? Well, that is where ZEO and load balancing will come in. I can personally tell you that you could set up four Pentium 300 MHz Zope installations running a ZEO instance behind a load balance (not nearly are complicated as it seems) and you would be able to handle most of your Yahoo dreams. So, keep researching, asking the right questions and looking for those answers but don't get caught up in the benchmarking game too long, it is only one very small piece to the equation. Good luck. J At 10:19 PM -0400 7/6/2000, Firestar wrote: Thanks for your info. The benchmarks look impressive! However, what would be interesting is how Zope performs compared to Apache+PHP or mod_perl/mason and other open-source solutions... If you happen (and have the time) to compare them, do tell me:) regards, firestar --Original Message-- From: "J. Atwood" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Firestar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: July 6, 2000 2:55:02 PM GMT Subject: Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow? No. Not when compared to other applications that do the same *type* of thing (which there are very very few). Check out an interesting set of benchmarks I ran against Zope and Tomcat connecting to a PostgreSQL database. http://www.zope.org/Members/BwanaZulia/benchmarks.html J ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
RE: [Zope] Is Zope slow?
Was that Zap or Zope/Medusa. I have run some benchmarks that favored apache serving the same "static" content that Zope/Medusa was serving. - Bryan Patrick Coleman Questcon Technologies (336)273-2428 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Andy McKay [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 10:15 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow? -maybe we could discuss network services/hoster_performance? This is more of a problem for most people. One evening whilst bored we calculated that Zope could happily serve enough people to fill up our pipe... so the bottle neck is our connection. Mind you we'd had a beer or two so calculations could be flawed. michael drawingincode ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?
Well, i don't think my site will ever get that much hits:) Anyway, i check out Digicool website on this ZEO thing, and it seems that they charge abt $25,000 for this product alone(+consulting)? Not to belittle their effort, but that's a huge amount of money, considering that everything nowadays is "open-source":). Or did i interpret it wrongly? TIA. ZEO is open source now. It used to be (a few months ago) that $25,000 but now is completely open source (search for ZEO on Zope.org). It is in Alpha/Beta and will be out soon. It probably one of the biggest things that gets the littlest attention. It will bring Zope to a whole new level of scaling the only 1,000,000 solutions offer now. J ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?
Hi, thanks for your comment. Absolutely. Apache is many times faster than Zope. (Don't know much about AOLserver, but anything with AOL. :) However, Apache can't do squat compared with Zope when it comes to dynamic content. Not true. I have been programming using PHP and PERL, and together with Apache(DSO) they are quite fast. They do offer sessions tracking, authentication, database API + other features. It's just that due to the increasing 'hype':) on Zope and the vast array of features that it seems to offer, i'm sort of "attracted" by it:) Of course if i have time, i will play ard with it and see how good it is. Problem is that time is not really on my side and i need to decide on my next development tool fast(i have yet to try out other stuff e.g. ASP, JSP, Servlet..) I heard that the learning curve for Zope is quite steep, plus the documentation is not(?) that comprehensive, compared to e.g. PHP. What are your comments though? i may be wrong here... regards, firestar __ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?
Firestar wrote: Hi, I'm considering using Zope as the development tool for my next web project. However, I read from a recent benchmark test (from Qube, i think) that Zope(running thru Zserver?) is much SLOWER than Apache and AOLserver. Is that true? To all Zope users and 'guru's, what is yr experience using Zope? Define slow. Slow compared to what? Doing what? That's a ig difference between Zope and Apache and AOLServer. they don't _do_ the stuff that Zope does. It's like comparing a Corvette and a v10 Dodge RAM. id the Dodge 'slow'? When compared to the vette. But does the vette do any heavy hauling? Can it tow a boat? A Trailer? Will it haul the kids and the dog up througt the hills? Apache does little other than serve stati files, and take output from cgis (or modules, same _basic_ concept). Zope actually does the work. For some things Zope is appropriate, and where it is, it outperforms (IME) Apache. For others, like serving static content, it is slowER than apache. of course, slow is all relative. I have a couple zope Servers cranking out ~80 requests per second. Is that slow? ;) That's ~6 Million requests/day. Cut it in half, for more complicated tasks, and still moving along at a good clip. What's better, try Apache doing the same things. Does your next project invlove more than just static files sitting on a hard drive? Chances are, you'll be better off with Zope Speed and Bencmarks are irrelevant when it comes to real-world performance. :) -- "Linux: the operating system with a CLUE... Command Line User Environment". seen in a posting on comp.software.testing ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?
Hi Bill, thanks for your reply. --Original Message-- From: Bill Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Firestar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: July 6, 2000 8:19:39 AM GMT Subject: Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow? Define slow. Slow compared to what? Doing what? That's a ig difference between Zope and Apache and AOLServer. they don't _do_ the stuff that Zope does. Apache does little other than serve stati files, and take output from cgis (or modules, same _basic_ concept). Zope actually does the work. For some things Zope is appropriate, and where it is, it outperforms (IME) Apache. For others, like serving static content, it is slowER than apache. of course, slow is all relative. I have a couple zope Servers cranking out ~80 requests per second. Is that slow? ;) That's ~6 Million requests/day. Cut it in half, for more complicated tasks, and still moving along at a good clip. What's better, try Apache doing the same things. Does your next project invlove more than just static files sitting on a hard drive? Chances are, you'll be better off with Zope I have been programming with PHP and PERL, and they are quite fast, even when serving dynamic pages. Of course, they do not provide all the features of Zope, but they are able to handle things like sessions, authentication, database API...which is quite adequate for most small-to-medium websites. (although sometimes it's quite frustrating putting the modules together:) Speed and Bencmarks are irrelevant when it comes to real-world performance. :) benchmark may not be accurate, but i still think that speed is still impt. Check out Jakob Nielsen's website and you would know that speed of serving webpages is one of the main usability factors. But then again, if Zope really is THAT good, i may be inclined to switch over and use it as my main development tool in future; but the speed factor is still worrying me - i wouldn't want my website to 'crawl' when i'm presenting it to my boss or clients:) regards, thee __ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?
Firestar wrote: I have been programming with PHP and PERL, and they are quite fast, even when serving dynamic pages. Of course, they do not provide all the features of Zope, but they are able to handle things like sessions, authentication, database API...which is quite adequate for most small-to-medium websites. (although sometimes it's quite frustrating putting the modules together:) Yes, Zope is slower than Apache but so is a bus compared to a porsche. However, you can do things with buses that would take forever with a sports car, and some that are impossible (moving furniture ;) If you want the best of both worlds, map out the images and large static files from apache's config to go to itself and forward the rest over PCGI to Zope (read up on mod_rewrite). This way, the dynamic stuff is served by zope and the static stuff is handled by apache, both doing what they are good at. You can add LocalFS to Zope to allow administration of the static files too. This is what PHP does, that is just a module which handles php files, everything else is handled by Apache. PHP itself isn't that fast (it doesn't even cache compiled code). A decent 500Mhz PIII will knock out about 80 pages per second under Zope (~40 for complex things) but given that many sites where speed is important are very graphical, the ratio of a zope hit to an apache one is reasonable - on the site I'm working on this is about 1:10 and current traffic (not yet under Zope) is 18Million hits per month. If ever you run out of power (or reach the halfway point) you can start thinking of adding some caching or migrate to ZEO. In fact, if that happens, you'd be stupid not to have some sort of cluster - you'd have a very busy site! Phill ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?
On Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 04:27:22AM -0400, Firestar wrote: Well, i do appreciate the 'extra' features that Zope provides, but speed is still a matter of concern here. Imagine showing my boss "what my website can do" and all those advanced features, but it crawls like a snail... "Slow" does not mean "crawl". It is slowER, it is a relative term. Is www.zope.org slow? Is www.CodeCatalog.com slow? Is www.enterlinux.com slow? For the featureset, PHP and Perl are either as fast or slower. Take Code Catalog; they built their prototype site both in PHP and Zope, and Zope was the fastest. Zope is more than fast enough for 90% of the sites out there. In many cases, you can optimize the application if necessary, you can use caching or cache-control headers where applicable, you can use ZEO to distribute the load over multiple Zope processes, on multiple machines if need be. You could run static content from a dedicated machine, like Slashdot does. But this is not always necessary. Zope.org runs without ZEO on a sub $1000 box. Commodity hardware. 85.000 hits per day and on the increase. Again, slow is a relative term. How can you be sure that Zope is going to be the bottleneck in your app? It could well be that your internet connection is the weak link, or that you just don't get the userbase to tax Zope to the limits. Will the additional development time spent on another platforms be worth the little bit of extra performance, if you don't even need it? Check out Zope.org for more examples and case studies. Search the mail archives for comparisons. Forget about the speed issue. -- Martijn Pieters | Software Engineermailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Digital Creations http://www.digicool.com/ | Creators of Zope http://www.zope.org/ | ZopeStudio: http://www.zope.org/Products/ZopeStudio - ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?
maybe if we all share "optimum" hardware configuration to improve performance+ -where is your server "hosted" as this is vital(obviously:)) to speed/performance -maybe we could discuss network services/hoster_performance? michael drawingincode ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?
No. Not when compared to other applications that do the same *type* of thing (which there are very very few). Check out an interesting set of benchmarks I ran against Zope and Tomcat connecting to a PostgreSQL database. http://www.zope.org/Members/BwanaZulia/benchmarks.html J From: Firestar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 22:13:32 -0400 (EDT) To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Zope] Is Zope slow? Hi, I'm considering using Zope as the development tool for my next web project. However, I read from a recent benchmark test (from Qube, i think) that Zope(running thru Zserver?) is much SLOWER than Apache and AOLserver. Is that true? To all Zope users and 'guru's, what is yr experience using Zope? ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?
-maybe we could discuss network services/hoster_performance? This is more of a problem for most people. One evening whilst bored we calculated that Zope could happily serve enough people to fill up our pipe... so the bottle neck is our connection. Mind you we'd had a beer or two so calculations could be flawed. michael drawingincode ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?
Firestar wrote: Check out Jakob Nielsen's website and you would know that speed of serving webpages is one of the main usability factors. The bottleneck is not generally the speed of serving webpages, but rather, the speed of the client downloading the data from webpages, as the data has to go through N regions of the Internet between the server and client. Also, users tend to look at more than one webpage at a time, and so their incoming bandwidth per connection is reduced even further. The answer to this issue is to avoid large graphics and large pages, allow client-side caching, move the useful content of a site "forwards" towards its entrance, avoid banner adverts... -- Steve Alexander Software Engineer Cat-Box limited http://www.cat-box.net ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?
-maybe we could discuss network services/hoster_performance? This is more of a problem for most people. One evening whilst bored we calculated that Zope could happily serve enough people to fill up our pipe... so the bottle neck is our connection. Mind you we'd had a beer or two so calculations could be flawed. That sounds about right (with no idea what size pipe you have ;). I also was worried about the speed of Zope however after doing the calculations, I figured our current Zope server can fill the pipe we have twice so it is definately a bandwidth problem. (And I was sober when doing the calculations ;) Benno ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?
On Thu, 06 Jul 2000, Firestar wrote: Hi, thanks for your comment. Absolutely. Apache is many times faster than Zope. (Don't know much about AOLserver, but anything with AOL. :) However, Apache can't do squat compared with Zope when it comes to dynamic content. Not true. I have been programming using PHP and PERL, and together with Apache(DSO) they are quite fast. They do offer sessions tracking, authentication, database API + other features. It's just that due to the increasing 'hype':) on Zope and the vast array of features that it seems to offer, i'm sort of "attracted" by it:) ahem As I said, compared with Apache, for static content, it is slow. However, just like with CGI, PHP, and various other technologies, ZOPE can work through Apache. As I've had to tell many of my friends, once I became a ZOPE convert, Zope does not allow you to do anything you can't already do, but it makes those things SO much easier. (o8 Of course if i have time, i will play ard with it and see how good it is. Problem is that time is not really on my side and i need to decide on my next development tool fast(i have yet to try out other stuff e.g. ASP, JSP, Servlet..) I heard that the learning curve for Zope is quite steep, plus the documentation is not(?) that comprehensive, compared to e.g. PHP. What are your comments though? i may be wrong here... Well, I find that Zope allows a MUCH quicker development cycle, along with various other advantages, such as remote edit of pages from any browser on the net. Yes, the documentation is lacking. However, IMHO, a competent programmer (especially one with a decent grasp of OO) will pick it up quickly with just a couple of reference documents. (The Zope Quick Reference comes to mind :) A friend of mine was a hardcore PHP nut, before I introduced him to Zope, and was amazed at how simple it made work. I think the thing that slowed his learning of zope the most was often expecting solutions to problems to be complex. regards, firestar By all means, try it out. And when you're done, tell us what you think. What you like, where you think other technologies win out, and why. Zope is developing quickly, and the features are easy to add because of the open nature of the project, and the whole product system. Have a better one, Curtis Maloney dtml-var standard_work_disclaimer ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?
On Thu, Jul 06, 2000 at 04:13:31AM -0400, Firestar wrote: Of course if i have time, i will play ard with it and see how good it is. Problem is that time is not really on my side and i need to decide on my next development tool fast(i have yet to try out other stuff e.g. ASP, JSP, Servlet..) I heard that the learning curve for Zope is quite steep, plus the documentation is not(?) that comprehensive, compared to e.g. PHP. What are your comments though? i may be wrong here... Of course, the PHP book I have is really nice, phplib is a godsend too, but I've tried it and I'm here now. If you take the time to go beyond the "i will do it with external method in python because that's all I know" stage, you will find at home sooner or later depending on wether: - you already know python (I did) - you understand the difference between dtml-var pippo and dtml-var "pippo" - you understand how to wisely use REQUEST and RESPONSE - you don't need complex new products or zclasses - you post any doubt here (nice place isn't it?) - you give a deep read at the ZSQL documentation - you can apply full-time (I couldn't) given that, most of the howtos and tips are redundant :-) Of course I'm a newbie, but I'm a confident newbie. -- "This company has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down. If the problem persists, contact your vendor or appeal to a higher court." - Signal11 on slashdot ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Is Zope slow?
Hello, I'm considering using Zope as the development tool for my next web project. However, I read from a recent benchmark test (from Qube, i think) that Zope(running thru Zserver?) is much SLOWER than Apache and AOLserver. Is that true? To all Zope users and 'guru's, what is yr experience using Zope? I run the QubeQuorner weblog where those numbers came from. Zope isn't slow. It's slower than Apache serving static pages. But Zope is dynamic. I haven't yet had time to do proper dynamic comparisons between the various servers. I run a few Zope sites. And I'm adding more Zope sites. I wouldn't do that if I thought it was too slow. There is a lot involved in making a site faster or slower. Adding a few graphics to your web page is going to make it slower than an all-text page. An all-text page vs a mixed text and graphics page can be almost twice as fast. Your connection to the site is going to affect "apparent" performance. For example, while I have a cable modem at home, and my Zope server sits on a fast T1 (there are slow T1s and fast ones), the connection in the evenings is too slow for me use my server. That's @Home's fault, not Zope's. And our T1 will fill up well before Zope runs out of steam on my box. Technocrat.net is a Zope site. They were Slashdotted and survived without any apparent problems. And they were running Zope on a Pentium 120! I believe they upgraded to a PII-450 after that episode, just to be safe. I have a list of Pystone benchmarks on my QQ site too: http://weblogs.userland.com/qube/stories/storyReader$289 A PIII-850 gives tremendous Python performance, which should translate to impressive Zope numbers too. Zope.org, however, doesn't run on nearly the fastest hardware available, and it rarely seems slow to me. Luke ___ Zope maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
