Re: [Zope-dev] Plone/Metadata/FUD
On Thursday, Oct 3, 2002, at 03:54 Europe/Paris, James Johnson wrote: I've been around the Zope/Python scene for many years. One thing I see this group suffer I believe if from the groupthink mentality. Imho Alexander Limi 2 cents worth demonstrated Erik's point perfectly. applaud the effort made with plone. I believe it to be a spoon in which we can spoon feed newbies into the CMS side of the Zope way. Seem my post regarding Zopezen.org. Plone is slow. Zope with CMF is slow... Not as slow as plone, but the issue is with ZPT. There is no way around it Erik is right. Developer time being spent on speeding up plone in order to backport the improvements to Zope/CMF sounds... Well arse backwards. Plone has its place, but I suspect some doublespeak here, lets be realistic about it. The Plone people are a layer above CMF, which is a layer above Zope, which is a layer above Python, which is a layer above the C library, which is... Do the Plone people have responsibility for all the layers below them? Nope. If there was a bug in the Python compiler (and in the last six months, there was one), should Plone have to fix it? Should they also fix problems in the Linux virtual memory model if they find that too? Nope. I debated a long time ago about CMS being the core of Zope anyway, but lo and behold they pushed on with a CMF product. I see plone as being the same, a Two errors here: a. The Zope community, on the whole, doesn't want Zope narrowed exclusively to content management. b. The CMF isn't a product. It is a framework. It specifically intends to not be a product. product. Now my understanding is that with Zope3, they will roll a lot of the CMF functionality into Zope3 Hmm go figure? All that time wasted on maintaining 2 This isn't precise. The CMF machinery, the part not unique to content management, is going into Zope 3. The effort for content management in Zope 3 is being managed as a companion project: http://lists.zope.org/pipermail/zope3-dev/2002-September/002819.html I'll note that you are neither subscribed to the Zope 3 mailing list, nor have you commented on the email above. If you're not even participating, then you should be more circumspect when making assertions such as: products Zope/CMF has proven cumbersome at the least imho. Now just imagine if the community would have listened to the lone voice James-then/Erik-now where we ...this. How can we listen to you if you're not participating? But to your point: the Zope community does not want, IMO, Zope and CMF merged. Content management is a piece of the Zope pie, not the whole pie. would be today. We all know that the decision back then was based on commercial interest for ZC and others trying to market some industry catch phrase. I have no idea what you are claiming. In fact, the reverse is true: ZC is focused on content management, but ZC realized others want to do different things with Zope. Thus ZC didn't turn Zope into a CMS-exclusive thing. Doing the CMF outside of Zope allowed the CMF to make rapid progress in a focused area without making promises that Zope itself would have to live with permanently. This has worked perfectly. We all now know a lot more about the patterns of content management. We can now refine them, and refine Zope, with the work on Zope 3. Tell me, do you think KDE should be merged into X11? It is exactly the same analogy. You're also claiming that Erik is voicing your opinion. I don't believe Erik wants a one-size-fits-all CMS product that everyone must support, nor do I believe Erik wants Zope to be focused exclusively on content management. However, I don't pretend to speak for Erik, so he can correct me if I'm wrong. So I hear you Erik, you have these wonderful, bright people working on special interest projects, but not on the core issues that allow Zope to have that strong core that it needs to move it forward. People work on what they want to work on. Alex Limi knows CSS and doesn't want to learn how the ZPT compiler should be optimized in C. It is unfair that you demand that he learn how to program in C. It is also wrong. Zope has more people that know C than know CSS well. We are lucky that Alex is filling an unmet need in the world of Zope. With it being evident in how the Release early/Release often mantra has been Explain how this is thrown by the wayside. You can, every single day, make a checkout of any part of Zope. Sure there was a gap between 2.6 alpha and 2.6 beta. But that's a single datapoint. Name another datapoint to support your conclusion. thrown to the wayside, I'm left wondering what do I do next with my 2.5.1 site? Do I go the plone, 2.6, 2.7 or 3.0 route? Going the Plone route is orthogonal to choosing a Zope version. Not a single person in the world of Zope claims that 3.0 could even run a prototype system, much less
Re: [Zope-dev] Zopezen.org is slower! Should time be spent on Plone or ZPT speed?
On Thursday, Oct 3, 2002, at 07:14 Europe/Paris, Andy McKay wrote: I smell commecial interest here. I smell people trying to make that one killer project hoping to make it big, instead of centering around the one vehicle that will help make a bunch of projects big someday. I won't deny it. I believe I can sell Plone and I'm not sure I can sell Zope as easily. Its a simple fact that I have to sell what the clients want: if I spend all my time concetrating on Zope innards, I doubt I'll be able to pay the mortgage. In the last 3 months 75% of my clients have come to me for Plone, in one case I steered them to a solution in Zope because I felt it was a more appropriate solution. I agree with Andy. Zope is a tool. Things like Silva and Plone are products. The purpose of Zope is to allow people to build things like Silva or Plone, or things quite different (perhaps custom to their own needs) quickly. And frankly, tools don't sell themselves. People want to see glitz. You could argue that Zope should be the project/brand with the glitz. But you're now limiting people's choices, because you're turning Zope into a product rather than a tool. Back to the X11/KDE argument. Ever looked at an X11 server running w/out a window manager? That's Zope. But it's wrong to fix the problem by eliminating X11 and merging it with KDE, because then the Gnome (and windowmaker, and sawfish, and...) people would be unhappy. Layers provide choice. Sure, they also provide a bit of confusion, but this cost is far outweighed by the benefits. Especially in open source, where people participate because they want to participate, not because they have no other choice. --Paul ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Zopezen.org is slower! Should time be spent on Plone or ZPTspeed?
But with some good people switching channels, will Zope still end up a major player in the market? Unfortunately from my forays into the non-Zope (or Plone) into the CMS market I dont think Zope is anywhere near a major player. I just don't understand why working on Plone is considered switching channels. When I developed the CMFZen skin was that switching channels? Is Squishdot? I can only wonder and speculate why it's not a major player in the market. I've been around long enough in the industry to see free products such as winamp, MIRC, Linux, PK-Zip and others that have actually become like standards in their areas. I equate switching products to switching channels because look how CMFZen is changing, and what in the hell ever happened to Swishdot?!? Please don't get me wrong, products like squishdot, CMFZen, and others have steered me towards Zope. They are fine examples of the things that make Zope appealing. But if you really think about what I'm saying you might understand my meaning. Zope--is to MTV and Plone -- is to VH1. Squishdot-- is to CMT. Now this analogy is not a hard and fast rule, so you can mix and match whatever Music television stations are in your area to whatever zope product you like. The point is they are all music stations, and some even try to be more. I believe MTV is the number one worldwide. Now I'm relating Zope to MTV back when it was new and first came out. It was all music 24 hours a day. First it was pop/rock and then they added like Rap and other styles. Next thing you know you have other music stations that cater to specific niche groups. Even if you have a picture in picture(PIP) television can you really comfortably watch two stations at once? No, so if you watch, support and become a fan of Country Music Television, how much time is taken away from the original MTV? Imho until Zope has achieved the market share and the place where is should be, Then the other stations(products) become more valuable as alternatives. Whenever I speak to anyone about Plone I mention Zope in the first sentence. Lets now examine that sentence, aha but you mention Plone before you mention Zope? ;-) It was at first tricky to get the Zen of Zope. Then you had to learn the Zen of CMF, Now there is a need for the Zen of Plone. I got two old sayings, one is I think some people might be Putting the cart before the horse and Too many cooks, spoil the broth snip Perhaps, but how will you know until you try? There's more than one reason a project goes under and in some ways Plone is quite different. That's what they all say. I've tried, but to say the least Plone is an ambitious project. But I have to agree with Erik how much or how little are you planning on porting to a stock zope/cmf product with what you do with Plone? I smell commecial interest here. I smell people trying to make that one killer project hoping to make it big, instead of centering around the one vehicle that will help make a bunch of projects big someday. I won't deny it. I believe I can sell Plone and I'm not sure I can sell Zope as easily. Its a simple fact that I have to sell what the clients want: if I spend all my time concetrating on Zope innards, I doubt I'll be able to pay the mortgage. In the last 3 months 75% of my clients have come to me for Plone, in one case I steered them to a solution in Zope because I felt it was a more appropriate solution. All I can say is selling products such as Plone, medzope,or whatever makes sense for sure. Even if it's just consulting gigs for the Free versions. But if I can guess what the market will do, then the market will either open-source or make free their products to stop any serious damage to their share of the market. Right now they are like Microsoft. As long as they are making money why give it away free? Only time will tell. Btw I'm just trying to present alternative ideas on the table. Peace, -- James I am a Washington State Citizen. Spamming this Email Address may be against Washington State Law Chapter 19.86, and 19.190 RCW. http://www.wa.gov/ago/junkemail/protect.html _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Zopezen.org is slower! Should time be spent on Plone or ZPT speed?
On Thursday, Oct 3, 2002, at 10:51 Europe/Paris, James Johnson wrote: Please don't get me wrong, products like squishdot, CMFZen, and others have steered me towards Zope. They are fine examples of the things that make Zope appealing. But if you really think about what I'm saying you might understand my meaning. Zope--is to MTV and Plone -- is to VH1. Squishdot-- is to CMT. The funny part of your analogy: MTV is the creator and owner of VH1. Now why do you suppose they did that? :^) --Paul ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Plone/Metadata/FUD
Paul Everitt wrote: ...this. How can we listen to you if you're not participating? But to your point: the Zope community does not want, IMO, Zope and CMF merged. Content management is a piece of the Zope pie, not the whole pie. And sooo right you are. If Zope became the CMF or Plone I would drop it in an instance. There are so many wonderfull things that can be done in Zope, when it is as it is now. And many of the things does not fit into the cmf frame of mind. Ie. I have a completely different idea as to how things should be done in Zope than how the CMF do it. When you start making a concrete implementation of something you make some decissions in the beginning, and those decissions influence how you make the rest of your decissions. So you get this complex web of layers of decissions that depends on each other. You sort of paint yourself into a corner. An evolutionary dead-end so to speak. If Zope gets forced to go in one different direction, like CMF, it will quickly hit an evolutionary dead end. regards Max M -- The reason I don't reach any higher is that I stand on the shoulders of midgets. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Zopezen.org is slower! Should time be spent on Plone or ZPTspeed?
From: Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED] I agree with Andy. Zope is a tool. Things like Silva and Plone are products. The purpose of Zope is to allow people to build things like Silva or Plone, or things quite different (perhaps custom to their own needs) quickly. And frankly, tools don't sell themselves. People want to see glitz. Hmm, I also see Zope as a tool, as well as a vehicle. So you can say I see it now as a shovel, when it should be an earth mover. They both move earth, but you can move mountains with the earth mover. Now the earth mover is no limo, or fancy sports car with all the bells and whistles. It has the functionality added to get the job done. I think one of the reasons we don't see eye to eye on this is because I don't have the luxury or burden of running a large company. I don't have to provide paychecks to people, so I'm not looking for that quick glitzy fix to generate revenue. You could argue that Zope should be the project/brand with the glitz. But you're now limiting people's choices, because you're turning Zope into a product rather than a tool. I understand the need to keep it simple, so that people can customize it without having to tear things out. I think one can argue that a tool is a product, perhaps it's more of a framework, such as the CMF. Back to the X11/KDE argument. Ever looked at an X11 server running w/out a window manager? That's Zope. But it's wrong to fix the problem by eliminating X11 and merging it with KDE, because then the Gnome (and windowmaker, and sawfish, and...) people would be unhappy. When I use linux I go for the Gnome window manager. I'm a windows guy at heart, and some could argue that linux has way too many choices. I read somewhere that was one of it's downfalls to becoming a desktop standard. Layers provide choice. Sure, they also provide a bit of confusion, but this cost is far outweighed by the benefits. Especially in open source, where people participate because they want to participate, not because they have no other choice. Layers can also provide problems that need to be addressed. You made some excellent points in your other posting. I'm attending a technical college where they have 100 or so computers with windows NT and 5 machines with Linux. Nobody is using the Linux machines, so I'm hard-pressed to see the benefits. Just like with my oracle training the default server is jserver which I believe is based off of tomcat. They won't even let me install Zope, so again I'm hard-pressed to see the benefits you speak of. Constructive confict is good and it helps to flush out some hidden issues. You see it as a X11/KDE thing and I see it as a shovel/earth mover thing. I don't mean to try and speak for anyone else. I love what anybody does for Zope. I just feel that as a shovel it will never be nothing more than someones backyard tool. And I thought you wanted it to be able to hang with the big boys some day? At the very least thanks for hearing me out. Peace, -- James I am a Washington State Citizen. Spamming this Email Address may be against Washington State Law Chapter 19.86, and 19.190 RCW. http://www.wa.gov/ago/junkemail/protect.html _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Zopezen.org is slower! Should time be spent on Plone or ZPTspeed?
I know I thought about that for a minute, but I believe MTV was well established when they came out with VH1. But seeing that Zope is not the first app server on the market, it's like that first one I've used. I know its a good thing to see all of these alternate frameworks and/or products, but I'll shut up until I can do more to constructively help out with the zope core. Please don't get me wrong, products like squishdot, CMFZen, and others have steered me towards Zope. They are fine examples of the things that make Zope appealing. But if you really think about what I'm saying you might understand my meaning. Zope--is to MTV and Plone -- is to VH1. Squishdot-- is to CMT. The funny part of your analogy: MTV is the creator and owner of VH1. Now why do you suppose they did that? :^) --Paul Peace, -- James I am a Washington State Citizen. Spamming this Email Address may be against Washington State Law Chapter 19.86, and 19.190 RCW. http://www.wa.gov/ago/junkemail/protect.html _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Plone/Metadata/FUD
From: Max M [EMAIL PROTECTED] Paul Everitt wrote: ...this. How can we listen to you if you're not participating? But to your point: the Zope community does not want, IMO, Zope and CMF merged. Content management is a piece of the Zope pie, not the whole pie. And sooo right you are. If Zope became the CMF or Plone I would drop it in an instance. I'm way too tired and need to hit the sack now, but here is a quote from the URL given to me by Paul Zope 3 will include many of the components and frameworks currently supplied by the CMF. Now I never claimed or stated that the CMF needed to be merged with the Core Zope. Nor did I claim that Plone needed to be merged into Zope. After school tommorrow I will work to clarify my position. What I'm sensing though is double speak, because now it sounds like you want to beef up that shovel, and imho the content to be managed is the dirt. My only response is why wasn't Many of the components and frameworks currently supplied by the CMF included in the core Zope in the first place? Everybody has the right to work on their own thing sure. We would already have a highly extensible Zope3 by now if the time wasn't spent trying to create something else that should have been in the core of Zope in the first place. Let me ask you this, what does an app server serve? I say it servers content, you can call it data, information, results, or whatever. I'd say we would have had alot more products out for Zope had that framework been placed in Zope instead or Forking the content concept with a seperate tool. There are parts of the CMF that we can agree on that don't belong in the core of Zope. And that is where products such as Plone, CMFZen, and Swishdot come into play. What is the problem with my point of view? snip Peace, -- James I am a Washington State Citizen. Spamming this Email Address may be against Washington State Law Chapter 19.86, and 19.190 RCW. http://www.wa.gov/ago/junkemail/protect.html _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Plone/Metadata/FUD
My only response is why wasn't Many of the components and frameworks currently supplied by the CMF included in the core Zope in the first place? Everybody has the right to work on their own thing sure. We would already have a highly extensible Zope3 by now if the time wasn't spent trying to create something else that should have been in the core of Zope in the first place. If only people could write the ideal software first time! From my point of view as a Zope 3 contributor, I'm extremely glad that the patterns, use-cases and learning experiences were developed in the CMF, outside of the core of Zope. If what is going into Zope 3 had been worked into the core of Zope 2 instead of being tried out in the CMF, the speed of development would have been an order of magnitude slower, and there would have been a much greater risk of increasing the number of deprecated APIs in the Zope 2 core. So, bravo to the CMF developers and contributors. Not only do we have a useful and innovative framework today, we have the blueprints for a better Zope tomorrow. -- Steve Alexander ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Zopezen.org is slower! Should time be spent on Ploneor ZPT speed?
James Johnson wrote: might understand my meaning. Zope--is to MTV and Plone -- is to VH1. Squishdot-- is to CMT. I just realised that CMT stands for Country Music Television :-( What are you trying to say?! ;-) Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] ZEO cache instrumentation -- any takers?
Guido van Rossum wrote: A while ago I announced a new ZEO cache instrumentation feature, and asked if anyone was interested in enabling this instrumentation in their site. I got exactly zero responses... :-( Hmmm... people might have done it and not let you know. Are you looking to get the log files back so you can analyse them? And can you just put the new ClientCache.py on one ZEO client in the configuration? cheers, Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] 2.6 hang problem
Toby Dickenson wrote: Yesterday, it appears this site died during a ZCatalog update as the last entry in Z2.log was for the advanced catalog management form. However, there was no entry for the actual re-catalog. That makes sense - Z2.log entries are made once the method has completed (because it needs to include a field for the number of bytes sent back). Yeah, that's what I thought. It looks like it stalled in the middle of that method. Indeed. Very weirdly, when I went to look at the stupid_log_file, it was totally blank. I'm still very concerned as to how this managed to happen... 2002-10-02T10:41:55 INFO(0) Z2 Closing all open network connections Zope closed all the network connections in the asyncore map, including the one needed by ZEO that caused the traceback below. There is a fishbowl proposal to fix this, titled 'extra clean shutdown' iirc. So, in effect, this is a bug but nothing to worry about? When I restarted Zope, things appear to have come up fine. The funky new error log object is empty, but I guess it's not a persistent thing... Its not persistent. You can get it to copy errors to zLOG, which eventally targets the stupid log. Do you have that box ticked? No, I do now though... My main concern is finding out why it ground to a halt. If this is a bug in 2.6, it'd be good to get ti fixed before 2.6 final comes out... cheers, Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] ZEO cache instrumentation -- any takers?
Guido van Rossum wrote: A while ago I announced a new ZEO cache instrumentation feature, and asked if anyone was interested in enabling this instrumentation in their site. I got exactly zero responses... :-( Hmmm... people might have done it and not let you know. Are you looking to get the log files back so you can analyse them? Yes, that was what I was explicitly asking if you read back the announcement. And can you just put the new ClientCache.py on one ZEO client in the configuration? Yes. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Plone/Metadata/FUD
Hi! I could comment for hours on the postings in this thread (after rereading what I've just written below I actually did ;-)). But let me just take this to say what is most important to me: In the world of Zope 3, this distinction will be even more clear. Zope 2 unfortunately tried too much to be an enduser product, causing confusion. Zope 3 will clearly say: This is for developers. Paul, you are talking about a point that is very critical to Zope's future. Many of us started using Zope in the first place because it was a cool, out-of-the box product. Zope 1.x, as well as the early versions of Zope 2.x, could be described as a feature-complete, easy-to-customize content mangement system for a small number of users, with support for integration of data from SQL and other external sources and for writing nice little dynamic apps. You just needed some DTML, not really do any real programming, be it in Python or DTML. And the separation of programming vs. just customizing was rather obvious. With the limited possibilities of DTML it was impossible to do real coding, which was a good thing. The Zope Management Interface (ZMI) worked fine if you had just a few templates, like a customized index_html, standard_html_header, etc. The Add-list was short, and even security worked fine with just a few Products installed and just a few users to map roles to, which you would have to map Permissions to. Then a lot of stuff was added, most of it very cool, but not always fitting into the original concept. ZClasses where the best and the worst idea of all at the same time. And they also are a good example of a Zope component that was over-hyped at first and then dropped like a hot potatoe (others are XML support, Mozilla support, and to some extent even the CMF). Before ZC started the documentation efforts, a Zope newbie would have no clue whether it was better to work with ZClasses or file-based products. Now things are, to an extent, even worse. To work with Zope and really get the most out of it, you need to know Python (even in the ZMI, as Python scripts are the preferred way of coding little helper methods), DTML (because ZPT can't do everything), and ZPT. This is really confusing for a lot of people. The thing I hate most is that there are really useful helper methods and classes in lib/python/App (and also in some other obscure places) that are frequently used by the ZMI itself. But this stuff is mostly undocumented and obviously written by ZMI-designers for ZMI-designers. E.g.: Zope copypaste support is cool. But there is no easy way of using it in customized user interfaces, as all the methods return you back to some ZMI page. So while obviously Paul is right that Zope 3 should be focussed at the developer and mainly provide well-tested, well-documented, low-level tools for doing great things, Zope (3) will only survive if we get a lot of a lot people using it. And as most people are NOT developers, they will need end-user products that are based on Zope. Otherwise Zope will get lost. If Zope 3 is meant to be a developer's tool then it will play in the league of BEA WebLogic, IBM WebSphere. Those products are powerful and expensive. And they are so complicated to use that you need experts to work with them. So the market segment is very interesting, but limited to large corporate clients. Most of the users Zope currently has are probably using it as an alternative not to an application server but to either Apache+PHP/Perl or to a CMS. Virtually all the hosting customers we have at iuveno run no custom products. Some of them use existing ones like Squishdot or the CMF, some use ZClasses. So for them Zope IS the product, not the platform. Most of the consulting jobs Zope services companies can get will not be in the 100.000-1.000.000 EUR or $ range, but smaller in size. So the budget is large enough to customize an existing product, but not to write one from scratch, regardless how cool the platform is. I am quite sure that you can write a lot of stuff much quicker in Zope/Python than you'd get it done in Java, let alone C. But still that's not good enough to survive. My opinion is that what we as Zope-using services companies will need to survive is ready-to-use products we can easily customize. Plone is one of those, though I personally don't like all of it that much, Silva is another. And now comes the part where the Zope community can fit in: Most CMS I know, Zope-based or not, just try to do the same thing in slightly different ways. I am positive that as an open source community we could do MUCH better if we shared more of the development, not only on the Zope-level, but also and maybe even mainly on the application level. For me, Zope 2 is not perfect, but good enough to base applications on. So I would not necessarily need Zope 3 from that point of view. It is also hard for me to contribute to Zope 3 if it stays so abstract. An example: Contributing to the object hub is hard if you don't
[Zope-dev] I smell commercial interest: PLOPE
I agree with you James. To anyone who considers the plausibility of Zope and Plone merging; consider these facts: As they look over the world's painful panorama of war and terror, some people conclude that it is too late, that no amount of information or activity could possibly break the mold and stray from the path of conventional wisdom. But those who take that pessimistic view understand neither PLOPE Corporation nor its current rung on the ladder to total power. In the text that follows, I won't bother discussing the flaws in PLOPE Corporation's logic, because it certainly doesn't use any logic. If our goal is to discuss the relationship between three converging and ever-growing factions -- lackluster, feckless devotees of conspiracy theories, jejune, childish ethically bankrupt-types, and rash lunatics -- then we must consider various means to that end. Because "epididymodeferential" is a word that can be interpreted in many ways, we must make it clear that the biggest difference between me and PLOPE Corporation is that PLOPE Corporation wants to make bribery legal and part of business as usual. I, on the other hand, want to sound the bugle of liberty. This is sufficiently illustrated by the ridicule with which PLOPE Corporation's ethics are treated by everyone other than the worst types of mean-spirited deadbeats I've ever seen. That, in itself, will condemn us to live with the most imperious yobbos you'll ever see in the coming days. I don't need to tell you that most of us are now painfully aware of PLOPE Corporation's batty slogans. That should be self-evident. What is less evident is that PLOPE Corporation wants nothing less than to develop a Pavlovian reflex in us, to make us afraid to shatter the adage that freedom must be abolished in order for people to be more secure and comfortable. Its shills then wonder, "What's wrong with that?" Well, there's not much to be done with bitter Machiavellians who can't figure out what's wrong with that, but the rest of us can plainly see that you don't need to be a rocket scientist to detect the subtext of this letter. But just in case it's too subliminal for some, let me thrust it into your face right here: If PLOPE Corporation continues to drag everything that is truly great into the gutter, crime will escalate as schools deteriorate, corruption increases, and quality of life plummets. PLOPE Corporation pompously claims that all major world powers are controlled by a covert group of "insiders". That sort of nonsense impresses many people, unfortunately. This is equivalent to saying that many people are shocked when I tell them that we must speak neither of the past nor of the far future but rather focus on the here and now, specifically on the daunting matter of PLOPE Corporation's quasi-unstable, churlish treatises. And I'm shocked that so many people are shocked. You see, I had thought everybody already knew that if you read between the lines of PLOPE Corporation's canards, you'll unmistakably find that PLOPE Corporation's apparatchiks maintain that "PLOPE Corporation is the one who will lead us to our great shining future." First off, that's a lousy sentence. If they had written that PLOPE Corporation has an utter disregard for human life, then that quote would have had more validity. As it stands, PLOPE Corporation's cop-outs are continually evolving into more and more dishonest incarnations. Here, I'm not just talking about evolution in a simply Darwinist sense; I'm also talking about how PLOPE Corporation's lapdogs allege, after performing shoddy research and utilizing threadbare scholarship, that a number of their enemies are planning to infringe upon our most important constitutional rights. Don't make the mistake of thinking otherwise. PLOPE Corporation does, and that's why in order to solve big problems with it, we must first understand these problems, and to understand them, we must end its control over the minds and souls of countless people. Speaking of which, PLOPE Corporation says that the rest of us are an inferior group of people, fit only to be enslaved, beaten, and butchered at the whim of our betters. That's a stupid thing to say. It's like saying that women are crazed Pavlovian sex-dogs who will salivate at any object even remotely phallic in shape. I'm not the first to mention that to believe that PLOPE Corporation answers to no one is to deceive ourselves. So you see, PLOPE Corporation couldn't encourage every sort of indiscipline and degeneracy in the name of freedom if its life depended on it, which it doesn't. Yours, Diogenese TeufelsdrockhChat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: Click Here ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] I smell commercial interest: PLOPE
Please don't post in HTML. Oh wait you're a bot / script. We thought Plop was a better name that Plope btw ;) -- Andy McKay www.agmweb.ca - Original Message - From: Diogenese Teufelsdrockh [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 10:33 AM Subject: [Zope-dev] I smell commercial interest: PLOPE I agree with you James. To anyone who considers the plausibility of Zope and Plone merging; consider these facts: As they look over the world's painful panorama of war and terror, some people conclude that it is too late, that no amount of information or activity could possibly break the mold and stray from the path of conventional wisdom. But those who take that pessimistic view understand neither PLOPE Corporation nor its current rung on the ladder to total power. In the text that follows, I won't bother discussing the flaws in PLOPE Corporation's logic, because it certainly doesn't use any logic. If our goal is to discuss the relationship between three converging and ever-growing factions -- lackluster, feckless devotees of conspiracy theories, jejune, childish ethically bankrupt-types, and rash lunatics -- then we must consider various means to that end. Because epididymodeferential is a word that can be interpreted in many ways, we must make it clear that the biggest difference between me and PLOPE Corporation is that PLOPE Corporation wants to make bribery legal and part of business as usual. I, on the other hand, want to sound the bugle of liberty. This is sufficiently illustrated by the ridicule with which PLOPE Corporation's ethics are treated by everyone other than the worst types of mean-spirited deadbeats I've ever seen. That, in itself, will condemn us to live with the most imperious yobbos you'll ever see in the coming days. I don't need to tell you that most of us are now painfully aware of PLOPE Corporation's batty slogans. That should be self-evident. What is less evident is that PLOPE Corporation wants nothing less than to develop a Pavlovian reflex in us, to make us afraid to shatter the adage that freedom must be abolished in order for people to be more secure and comfortable. Its shills then wonder, What's wrong with that? Well, there's not much to be done with bitter Machiavellians who can't figure out what's wrong with that, but the rest of us can plainly see that you don't need to be a rocket scientist to detect the subtext of this letter. But just in case it's too subliminal for some, let me thrust it into your face right here: If PLOPE Corporation continues to drag everything that is truly great into the gutter, crime will escalate as schools deteriorate, corruption increases, and quality of life plummets. PLOPE Corporation pompously claims that all major world powers are controlled by a covert group of insiders. That sort of nonsense impresses many people, unfortunately. This is equivalent to saying that many people are shocked when I tell them that we must speak neither of the past nor of the far future but rather focus on the here and now, specifically on the daunting matter of PLOPE Corporation's quasi-unstable, churlish treatises. And I'm shocked that so many people are shocked. You see, I had thought everybody already knew that if you read between the lines of PLOPE Corporation's canards, you'll unmistakably find that PLOPE Corporation's apparatchiks maintain that PLOPE Corporation is the one who will lead us to our great shining future. First off, that's a lousy sentence. If they had written that PLOPE Corporation has an utter disregard for human life, then that quote would have had more validity. As it stands, PLOPE Corporation's cop-outs are continually evolving into more and more dishonest incarnations. Here, I'm not just talking about evolution in a simply Darwinist sense; I'm also talking about how PLOPE Corporation's lapdogs allege, after performing shoddy research and utilizing threadbare scholarship, that a number of their enemies are planning to infringe upon our most important constitutional rights. Don't make the mistake of thinking otherwise. PLOPE Corporation does, and that's why in order to solve big problems with it, we must first understand these problems, and to understand them, we must end its control over the minds and souls of countless people. Speaking of which, PLOPE Corporation says that the rest of us are an inferior group of people, fit only to be enslaved, beaten, and butchered at the whim of our betters. That's a stupid thing to say. It's like saying that women are crazed Pavlovian sex-dogs who will salivate at any object even remotely phallic in shape. I'm not the first to mention that to believe that PLOPE Corporation answers to no one is to deceive ourselves. So you see, PLOPE Corporation couldn't encourage every sort of indiscipline and degeneracy in the name of freedom if its life depended on it, which it doesn't. Yours, Diogenese Teufelsdrockh
Re: [Zope-dev] Integrating ZEO with Zope 2.7
Great idea, but this could also be a chance to fix the windows z2.py thang and the installer ;) Maybe, but I have no expertise in this area. As long as standalone Zope without ZEO would still be a startup option, Im sure there are more things out there like the Plone Controller that might take a while to catch up. I'm not planning to change the default startup configuration -- we're just adding the ZEO code so that you don't have to download and install it separately. ZEO has been added to the trunk now -- enjoy! --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Integrating ZEO with Zope 2.7
IMHO, Zope releases should, in this scenario, be configured by default to use a custom_zodb.py file with ClientStorage over a socket at startup, making the default config of Zope one that uses ZEO. Also, start scripts should be distributed with options to support both the following: - Zope's start script Start ZEO via ZEO's start.py, wait for confirmation of loaded storages, then start Zope's z2.py - Separate shell scripts to start each The advantage to this is the ability get access to the ZODB in automation and sysadmin scripts without taking Zope down. This should be transparent to those who don't care, unless there is a huge performance difference between directly using FileStorage, and using ClientStorage on a local socket to the same end (is the protocol overhead really that much?)... I'm not sure that such a drastic change can be done without breaking expectations set by previous Zope releases. But I'll let the Powers That Be decide on this -- I'm not touching the default configuration. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: Plone/Metadata/FUD
Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: +1 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] ZEO cache instrumentation -- any takers?
On Thu, 2002-10-03 at 01:11, Jeremy Hylton wrote: LRA == Leonardo Rochael Almeida [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: LRA The last two installations belong to the same client, and are LRA both experiencing a problem that I believe is related to ZEO LRA latency. Both sites depend heavily on a single ZCatalog for LRA operation (one ZCatalog hit in almost every page, with some LRA pages with more than one ZCatalog hit). When site content is LRA being managed, we're hitting ReadConflict errors (They read LRA like this: ZODB.POSException.ReadConflictError on database read LRA conflict error (oid0004c0a4, class LRA BTrees.OOBTree.OOBucket)). The reference to BTrees makes me LRA think this is ZCatalog related, we don't use BTrees ourselves LRA anywhere else and we only use regular Folders as bases for our LRA folderish objects, and managing content causes the reindexing LRA of objects. Which I think is what is triggering the conflict LRA errors. Your analysis sounds correct. A read conflict occurs when on thread modifies an object while another thread is reading it (subject to certain other conditions that probably aren't relevant). I assume several users are managing content at the same time. Not really. The system is in the last stages of functional testing with the client (it'd be funny if it wasn't so tragic :-), so we have a couple of insertions and modifications happening at the same time the public interface is being viewed. If Zope gets a read conflict, it will retry the transaction. So you must get very unlikely in order to see the error. Each time the transaction is retried, something must go wrong. That's the assumption I was working under. Are there a lot of concurrent transactions? Not really, as I said, we're only testing. Or do the updates affect a large number of objects at once? Not really, unless the ZCatalog update changes a bunch of BTree subobjects sequentially. Even then, the sleep between retries should take care of that, unless the ZEO latency is really high, which I don't think is enough to explain. If either is true, it seems like it would make the problem more likely to occur. True, but the problem could be something else entirely: We setup the standard error page to call an external method that writes the exception data (Exception, request path and traceback) to zLOG. One thing I just noticed is this little snippet in the stupid log: 2002-09-25T19:57:36 ERROR(200) FieldIndex unindex_object could not remove documentId 183870929 from index status. This should not happen. Traceback (innermost last): File E:\aplic\ZCLIEN~1\lib\python\Products\PluginIndexes\common\UnIndex.py, line 168, in removeForwardIndexEntry (Object: status) File E:\aplic\ZCLIEN~1\lib\python\ZODB\Connection.py, line 463, in setstate ReadConflictError: database read conflict error (oid 0005cffa, class BTrees.IIBTree.IITreeSet) It seems unindex_object is indiscriminately trapping ReadConflictErrors instead of letting ZPublisher deal with it. I believe this is not the cause of us seeing ReadConflictErrors in the browser, but I decided to point this out since it looks like a bug to me. The message above was caused by an 'exceptionless' (that a word?) `exception:' clause in lib/python/Products/PluginIndexes/common/UnIndex.py:178 And then, the lightning bolt of illumination hits me... I see ZPublisher generated conflict errors in the stupid log that aren't followed by the log messages generated by the standard_error_page, but the conflict errors that ARE trapped by standard_error_page aren't followed by ZPublisher 'conflict error' messages. So I go searching and what do I find? lib/python/Products/PageTemplates/TALES.py:253+ [... def evaluate(self, expression ...] except: raise TALESError, (`expression`, sys.exc_info(), self.position), sys.exc_info()[2] else: return v So ZPublisher isn't retrying this ConflictError because it isn't getting any! it's getting a TALESError! which it's dutifully reporting via the usual mechanisms! Well, this is an obvious error, but I'm too tired now to think of a fix. Besides, in a few minuts I have to watch the debate between the presidential candidates for the election this Sunday. Cheers, Leo PS: Hey, Guido, any chance of deprecating exceptionless 'exception:' clauses anytime soon? We got a bunch of those making our life harder on Zope :-) -- Ideas don't stay in some minds very long because they don't like solitary confinement. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] ZEO cache instrumentation -- any takers?
PS: Hey, Guido, any chance of deprecating exceptionless 'exception:' clauses anytime soon? We got a bunch of those making our life harder on Zope :-) No chance for backwards compatibility, but I try to stamp them out whenever I see them. Submit a tracker issue about the ones that particularly bug you -- with patch if you've got a suggestion. We'll get there still. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] ZEO cache instrumentation -- any takers?
As much as I try to avoid them (especially in Zope code), they are sometimes necessary because you simply don't know what exceptions might be raised from inside Python or the standard libs. Besides, even if you stamped it out people will just use: try: ... except Exception: Besides, sometimes you really do want to trap all exceptions, do something and then re-raise them again. IMO that's not bad form if its not habitual. Even simple operations in Python itself can raise various exceptions. For instance, a humble int(x) can raise TypeError or ValueError, and Guido knows what else ;^). That leads to me being less confident in my exception handling then I would like to be. At any rate Chris McDonough and I recently had a conversation about ZPT catching all exceptions and his sneeking suspicion that it was a bad thing with regard to read conflicts, but I think we concluded it wasn't as bad as he thought it might be. Maybe we were wrong. Since you have identified these places in the code, I think it would be worthwhile to add the following above the bare excepts in question to see what happens: except ReadConflictError: raise If nothing else, you could rule this out. -Casey On Thursday 03 October 2002 08:58 pm, Guido van Rossum wrote: PS: Hey, Guido, any chance of deprecating exceptionless 'exception:' clauses anytime soon? We got a bunch of those making our life harder on Zope :-) No chance for backwards compatibility, but I try to stamp them out whenever I see them. Submit a tracker issue about the ones that particularly bug you -- with patch if you've got a suggestion. We'll get there still. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] ZEO cache instrumentation -- any takers?
except ReadConflictError: raise Or even better (since ReadConflictError inherits from ConflictError): except ConflictError: raise What would be nice is a way to define in Python a kind of exception that is not caught by bare except: statements but only by except SpecificClass: statements. Not quite an uncatchable exception, but one that is caught only by except statements that name it. - C ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Compiling on Mac OS X 10.2
Hi all, For the benefit of all Jaguar (10.2) users, here is the complete steps I followed to compile and install readline 4.3, postgres 7.2.2, mxDateTime 2.0.4 and psycopg 1.0.12. All were compiled from the source tarballs available from the respective web sites. Preliminary steps - 1. cd /usr/lib/python2.2/config 2. Edit Makefile (with sudo), look for the line that begins LDFLAGS=. In mine it is line 62. 3. If the line reads: LDFLAGS= -arch i386 -arch ppc change it to: LDFLAGS= -arch ppc In other words, remove the errant -arch i386. Why that is there only the people at Apple know. Maybe they did a build of Darwin on x86 and forgot to remove that flag in the final build. 4. Save the changes. readline 1. After untarring, cd into readline-4.3/support 2. Edit shobj-conf and find the section that begins with # Darwin/MacOS X. The section begins with darwin*|macosx*) and ends with ;;. 3. Copy that whole section and then paste it below the ;; at the end of the section but before the openbsd*) starting the next section. This will be a new darwin6 section. 4. Go back to the top of the original and change darwin*|macosx*) to darwin[0-5]*). 5. Go to the top of the new darwin6 section and change darwin*|macosx*) to darwin6*). 6. In the darwin6 section, look for the line that begins with SHLIB_XLDFLAGS=. 7. Towards the end of that line, change $(SHLIB_MAJOR) to $(SHLIB_MAJOR).2. 8. The next line should read: SHLIB_LIBS='-lSystem' Change it to this: SHLIB_LIBS='-lSystem -lcc_dynamic -lncurses' 9. Save you changes, cd up one level, and then: ./configure make make install Ignore any warnings about duplicate symbols. The readline libs will now be installed in /usr/local/lib. postgres 1. After untarring the source and cd into the postgres directory, do the following: cd src/include/port/darwin mv sem.h sem.orig.h echo '#include sys/sem.h' sem.h cd ../../../backend/port 2. Edit Makefile.in, look for the 3 lines in the beginning section: ifeq ($(PORTNAME), darwin) OBJS += darwin/SUBSYS.o endif 3. Delete or comment out those lines and save your changes. 4. Now do the following: cd ../../.. ./configure --mandir=/usr/local/share/man --with-openssl=/usr/lib --enable-recode make make install make install-all-headers mxDateTime -- I had no problems with this. After untarring, cd into the egenix directory and do the following: python setup.py install To install in a Zope python, it would be: zope/bin/python setup.py install where zope is your Zope directory. psycopg --- Finally we can compile psycopg! 1. After untarring, cd into psycopg and do the following: setenv LDFLAGS -lssl This is in tcsh, do the equivalent in your shell to set the LDFLAGS environment variable. 2. Now do this to configure: For the default Apple python: ./configure --mandir=/usr/local/share/man --with-postgres-libraries=/usr/local/pgsql/lib --with-postgres-includes=/usr/local/pgsql/include --with-mxdatetime-includes=/usr/lib/python2.2/site-packages/mx/ DateTime/mxDateTime For a Zope python: ./configure --mandir=/usr/local/share/man --with-postgres-libraries=/usr/local/pgsql/lib --with-postgres-includes=/usr/local/pgsql/include --with-mxdatetime-includes=zope/lib/python2.1/site-packages/mx/ DateTime/mxDateTime --with-python=zope/bin/python where zope is your Zope directory. 3. If this works: make make install That's all there is to it! ;-) Aparajita Victory-Heart Productions [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.aparajitaworld.com ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
