Re: [z3-five] Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using
Martin Aspeli wrote: On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 15:42:34 +0100, whit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: to echo Martijn, I've learned much more about zope3 thumbing through the z3 bundled with Zope 2 than I have looking at actual zope3 source, because I don't have a job that pays me to do pure zope3. I would argue sending the whole enchilada is good social programming. one less download before someone explores the codebase and a lower barrier to experimentation if someone gets the itch to integrate a z3 feature into zope2. +10 zope.app smaller, better modularised - good zope.app gone for the sake of purity - bad (I suspect Philipp wasn't arging for this, though, only to use the Zope 2 comparison as a guide) Yes, this is how I understood it too after reading more carefully. Sorry Philipp for assuming too much. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using
On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 15:42:34 +0100, whit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: to echo Martijn, I've learned much more about zope3 thumbing through the z3 bundled with Zope 2 than I have looking at actual zope3 source, because I don't have a job that pays me to do pure zope3. I would argue sending the whole enchilada is good social programming. one less download before someone explores the codebase and a lower barrier to experimentation if someone gets the itch to integrate a z3 feature into zope2. +10 zope.app smaller, better modularised - good zope.app gone for the sake of purity - bad (I suspect Philipp wasn't arging for this, though, only to use the Zope 2 comparison as a guide) Martin -- (muted) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using
Martijn Faassen wrote at 2006-4-6 11:51 +0200: > ... >I'd therefore recommend an approach that includes as much of zope.app >into Zope 2 as is possible, while leaving out the obvious bits that >shouldn't be there, like Twisted. To the contrary, I am interested to get a Zope 2 as small as possible. -- Dieter ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using
Brian Sutherland wrote: > Ok, I make some tests without importing any of those dependencies, the > issues I have found thus far: > > * missing factory directive Recent Five releases should have it. It's deprecated now, though. > * missing class directive It's in the recent bugfix releases. I just haven't gotten around announcing them since, partially because there's another important bugfix in the pipe that would classify for another round of bugfix releases. > * zope.View permission not defined This can easily be fixed by redefining the zope.View permission to the zope.View permission: By the way, I'm keeping an updated version of the proposal at http://codespeak.net/svn/user/philikon/MakeZopeAppSmaller.txt (will periodically sync this with the one at zope.org). Philipp ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using
Martijn Faassen wrote: >> That's why I want to make sure that we include as much of zope.app in >> Zope 2. But I'm just one man so I tried to focus on current usage. I'm >> sure we all want to use as much as possible from Zope 3 in our Zope 2 >> projects in the future, but we have to draw the line for this release. >> The freeze is 3 weeks away. >> >> I'm aware that we might not get it all done for Zope 2.10. That's ok, we >> can phase out Zope 2's zope.app usage over a longer time. > > Okay, that's fine, as long as we're clear that zope.app will still be > part of Zope 2.10. In a realistic scenario that will still be the case. For example, I don't see the zope.app.form beast dissected for this release. >>> I'd therefore recommend an approach that includes as much of zope.app >>> into Zope 2 as is possible, while leaving out the obvious bits that >>> shouldn't be there, like Twisted. >> >> Then what's the point of zope.app at all? You're almost sounding like >> you want to move everything in zope.* to zope.app. > > Sorry, I was unclear. zope.app getting smaller good. Leaving zope.app > out of Zope 2 in the next Zope 2 release, bad. There's a lot of stuff in > zope.app that a lot of projects are using, and we may break stuff > significantly if code is suddenly not there anymore. > > [snip arguing against putting lots of stuff in zope.app] > > I'm not arguing in favor of zope.app, I'm just arguing in favor of > keeping zope.app included into Zope 2 releases for the time being, until > we're a lot further with this process of moving things out of zope.app. Agreed. Thanks for your input. Philipp ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using
Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: Martijn Faassen wrote: Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: we don't really want to ship all of zope.app with Zope 2. zope.app is supposed to be the Zope 3 application server. It shouldn't be included in Zope 2, especially since it requires twisted and such. I'm worried about this approach, as it stops the Five project from exposing more Zope 3 functionality into Zope 2 directly, instead having to wait for a new release of Zope 2 that includes the missing bits. That's why I want to make sure that we include as much of zope.app in Zope 2. But I'm just one man so I tried to focus on current usage. I'm sure we all want to use as much as possible from Zope 3 in our Zope 2 projects in the future, but we have to draw the line for this release. The freeze is 3 weeks away. I'm aware that we might not get it all done for Zope 2.10. That's ok, we can phase out Zope 2's zope.app usage over a longer time. Okay, that's fine, as long as we're clear that zope.app will still be part of Zope 2.10. I'd therefore recommend an approach that includes as much of zope.app into Zope 2 as is possible, while leaving out the obvious bits that shouldn't be there, like Twisted. Then what's the point of zope.app at all? You're almost sounding like you want to move everything in zope.* to zope.app. Sorry, I was unclear. zope.app getting smaller good. Leaving zope.app out of Zope 2 in the next Zope 2 release, bad. There's a lot of stuff in zope.app that a lot of projects are using, and we may break stuff significantly if code is suddenly not there anymore. [snip arguing against putting lots of stuff in zope.app] I'm not arguing in favor of zope.app, I'm just arguing in favor of keeping zope.app included into Zope 2 releases for the time being, until we're a lot further with this process of moving things out of zope.app. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using
Martijn Faassen wrote: > Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: >> we don't really want to ship all of zope.app with Zope 2. zope.app is >> supposed to be the Zope 3 application server. It shouldn't be included >> in Zope 2, especially since it requires twisted and such. > > I'm worried about this approach, as it stops the Five project from > exposing more Zope 3 functionality into Zope 2 directly, instead having > to wait for a new release of Zope 2 that includes the missing bits. That's why I want to make sure that we include as much of zope.app in Zope 2. But I'm just one man so I tried to focus on current usage. I'm sure we all want to use as much as possible from Zope 3 in our Zope 2 projects in the future, but we have to draw the line for this release. The freeze is 3 weeks away. I'm aware that we might not get it all done for Zope 2.10. That's ok, we can phase out Zope 2's zope.app usage over a longer time. > I'd therefore recommend an approach that includes as much of zope.app > into Zope 2 as is possible, while leaving out the obvious bits that > shouldn't be there, like Twisted. Then what's the point of zope.app at all? You're almost sounding like you want to move everything in zope.* to zope.app. I think in the past we didn't really understand what zope.app was. We just put everything in there. That didn't work. The twisted thing is just the biggest symptom. A much different, perhaps more subtle symptom is the fact that reusing stuff from zope.app is harder than reusing stuff that's independent of it. The fact that Zope 2 ships with zope.app is not because it wants to but because it needs to. All the things that *should* be reusable are tucked away there. If we continue to put everything in the zope.app bag, we won't be able to release more technology independently. I remember that you yourself suggested to put widgets into a more accessible and reusable location. I'm suggesting the same thing for all that other Zope 3 technology. Zope 2 is just the biggest motivator. Philipp ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using
On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 12:12:05AM +0200, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: > Brian Sutherland wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 11:18:46PM +0200, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: > >> Brian Sutherland wrote: > >>> On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 05:29:41PM +0200, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: > I would like to know what other zope.app packages your 3rd party > software is using. > >>> Er, FiveSQLOS is using quite a lot actually: > >>> > >>> https://codespeak.net/svn/z3/sqlos/trunk/Zope2/FiveSQLOS/dependencies-meta.zcml > >>> https://codespeak.net/svn/z3/sqlos/trunk/Zope2/FiveSQLOS/dependencies.zcml > >> Why are you loading zope.app.component/meta.zcml and > >> zope.app.security/meta.zcml? Five should provide all the necessary > >> directive registrations > > > > I havn't touched that code since the Zope2.8 days. I'll believe you for > > now and try testing it when the dust has settled. > > Ok. By the way, that "should" in "Five should provide..." also means > that if Five doesn't provide the necessary directive registrations yet > (which might very well be), then we need to make it. Ok, I make some tests without importing any of those dependencies, the issues I have found thus far: * missing factory directive * missing class directive * zope.View permission not defined This is not an exhaustive list and all of them came from the file: http://codespeak.net/svn/z3/sqlos/trunk/src/sqlos/configure.zcml > > >> As for zope.app.rdb, I guess we'll have to move it down to zope.rdb. > > > > I can probably take care of that in the next days. > > Great. Note that I'm working on the jim-adapter branch. I suggest you do > your modifications there as well. sure. > > Philipp > > ___ > Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev > ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** > (Related lists - > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) > -- Brian Sutherland Metropolis - "it's the first movie with a robot. And she's a woman. And she's EVIL!!" ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using
Hi everybody, Just to sketch out my general points to be clear: * I'm fine with a Zope 3 project that moves things from zope.app into zope. * I'm also fine with Zope 2 usage guiding which things should be moved first. * I'm not fine with a Zope 2 shipping with only parts of the library-like functionality of Zope 3. I think the Five project, along with Five users, should continue to have the ability to expose bits of Zope 3, no matter where they happen to be residing (zope or zope.app), into Zope 2. * I don't see why shipping zope.app (as long as it exists) with Zope 2 is a problem. It doesn't hurt except for taking up a bit more of cheap diskspace. * You could argue for removing those bits of zope.app that really have nothing to do with Zope 2, but I'd still be careful here. Someone might *want* to work on a new publisher for Zope 2 that uses Twisted, using bits of Zope 3 that integrate with Twisted, and why make life more difficult for them? * if you do not ship zope.app with Zope 2 anymore, the usage by Zope 2 will stop being a guide for which things to move from zope.app into zope next. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using
Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: we don't really want to ship all of zope.app with Zope 2. zope.app is supposed to be the Zope 3 application server. It shouldn't be included in Zope 2, especially since it requires twisted and such. I'm worried about this approach, as it stops the Five project from exposing more Zope 3 functionality into Zope 2 directly, instead having to wait for a new release of Zope 2 that includes the missing bits. I'd therefore recommend an approach that includes as much of zope.app into Zope 2 as is possible, while leaving out the obvious bits that shouldn't be there, like Twisted. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using
Brian Sutherland wrote: > On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 11:18:46PM +0200, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: >> Brian Sutherland wrote: >>> On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 05:29:41PM +0200, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: I would like to know what other zope.app packages your 3rd party software is using. >>> Er, FiveSQLOS is using quite a lot actually: >>> >>> https://codespeak.net/svn/z3/sqlos/trunk/Zope2/FiveSQLOS/dependencies-meta.zcml >>> https://codespeak.net/svn/z3/sqlos/trunk/Zope2/FiveSQLOS/dependencies.zcml >> Why are you loading zope.app.component/meta.zcml and >> zope.app.security/meta.zcml? Five should provide all the necessary >> directive registrations > > I havn't touched that code since the Zope2.8 days. I'll believe you for > now and try testing it when the dust has settled. Ok. By the way, that "should" in "Five should provide..." also means that if Five doesn't provide the necessary directive registrations yet (which might very well be), then we need to make it. >> As for zope.app.rdb, I guess we'll have to move it down to zope.rdb. > > I can probably take care of that in the next days. Great. Note that I'm working on the jim-adapter branch. I suggest you do your modifications there as well. Philipp ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using
Brian Sutherland wrote: > On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 05:29:41PM +0200, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: >> I would like to know what other zope.app packages your 3rd party >> software is using. > > Er, FiveSQLOS is using quite a lot actually: > > https://codespeak.net/svn/z3/sqlos/trunk/Zope2/FiveSQLOS/dependencies-meta.zcml > https://codespeak.net/svn/z3/sqlos/trunk/Zope2/FiveSQLOS/dependencies.zcml Why are you loading zope.app.component/meta.zcml and zope.app.security/meta.zcml? Five should provide all the necessary directive registrations As for zope.app.rdb, I guess we'll have to move it down to zope.rdb. > zope.app.container Will move to zope.container. > zope.app.location Moved to zope.location. > zope.app.exception What from zope.app.exception are you using? If it's just UserError, than that's ok. It's moved to zope.exceptions now. Philipp ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using
Lennart Regebro wrote: > On 4/5/06, Philipp von Weitershausen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I would like to know what other zope.app packages your 3rd party >> software is using. > > Well, CMFonFive uses zope.app.publisher.browser, because that's where > the menus hang. Menu support will be moved to zope.menu. > CPS uses zope.app.container for the container events and the IAdding > interface all over the place. Container support will be moved to zope.container once I figure out how to sanely deal with existing pickles. Is anyone in Zope 2 persisting zope.app.container.btree.BTreeContainer, zope.app.container.ordered.OrderedContainern or using the contained proxy (which is also persistent)? > CPSMailAccess uses zope.app.cache, zope.app.dublincore, > zope.app.copypastemove, and of course zope.app.mail. I've added these four to my list. They'll appear in an updated version of the proposal. I propose to move them all down to zope.* as they are (zope.app.mail should probably be called zope.sendmail). They're all not very complicated cases except zope.app.cache which has zope.app.form dependencies. I'd be glad if you could help me with moving them. I'm working on the jim-adapter branch. Straight moves usually just entail 1. svn mv'ing the directory 2. fixing up imports inside and outside the package 3. running the tests 3. providing BBB (I'm still figuring out a good way to do this w/o getting in circular import troubles) > (And also zope.app.pagetemplate and > zope.app.publisher.browser.BrowserView but I suspect those are special > hacks or something, that may be avoidable now, Tarek might know more.) BrowserView will move to zope.publisher.browser. I haven't really made up my mind about zope.app.pagetemplate yet. Some use cases might be helpful. I'm also very much open for suggestions and, of course, for help :). The proposal still isn't finished regarding many important details. I myself am not sure what to do with some of the packages or the things we need from some packages. > And we use zope.app.testing a lot, which you suggested not to move if > I understand you correctly. Indeed. What from zope.app.testing are you using? If it's PlacelessSetup, I bet it's not needed (on Zope >2.9 that is). If you need Component Architecture setup and teardown, use zope.component.testing. Philipp ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using
On 4/5/06, Lennart Regebro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > CPSMailAccess uses zope.app.cache, zope.app.dublincore, > zope.app.copypastemove, and of course zope.app.mail. > (And also zope.app.pagetemplate and > zope.app.publisher.browser.BrowserView but I suspect those are special > hacks or something, that may be avoidable now, Tarek might know more.) On an unrelated note, I would like to point out how cool it is that the CPSMailAccess uses so many parts of Zope3 in Zope2, and how well it works. The calendar uses almost nothing of zope.app directly, although it's a heavy user of Five integrational stuff. -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using
Bernd Dorn wrote: > i use zope.app.cachedescriptors in zope2 for various projects You probably mean zope.cachedescriptors. That isn't part of zope.app and therefore no problem in the zope.app vs. Zope 2 issue. Philipp ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using
On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 05:29:41PM +0200, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: > I would like to know what other zope.app packages your 3rd party > software is using. If thereare any other used than the ones mentioned in > the proposal, we'll have to move them out of zope.app. I'd like to ask > for your help on that, otherwise future Zope 2 versions might not > anymore include the package you're using. Aside from stuff mentioned on your proposal, we are using macros from zope.app.rotterdam.standardmacros. -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using
On 05.04.2006, at 17:29, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: implementing this proposal on the jim-adapter branch of Zope 3. I would like to know what other zope.app packages your 3rd party software is using. If thereare any other used than the ones mentioned in the proposal, we'll have to move them out of zope.app. I'd like to ask for your help on that, otherwise future Zope 2 versions might not anymore include the package you're using. i use zope.app.cachedescriptors in zope2 for various projects regards, bernd ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using
Lennart Regebro-2 wrote: > > Well, CMFonFive uses zope.app.publisher.browser, because that's where > the menus hang. > We would like to start using browser menus in Plone > CPS uses zope.app.container for the container events and the IAdding > interface all over the place. > We may want to reuse zope 3 containment concepts in Archetypes over time. > CPSMailAccess uses zope.app.cache, zope.app.dublincore, > zope.app.copypastemove, and of course zope.app.mail. > We'd certainly want DC and Mail in Plone over time. Cache and copypastemove sounds like it would be useful, but I don't know what they do. > And we use zope.app.testing a lot, which you suggested not to move if > I understand you correctly. > Anything to make testing easier, please. :) Martin -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/What-from-zope.app-are-you-using-t1400253.html#a3767850 Sent from the Zope - Dev forum at Nabble.com. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using
On 4/5/06, Philipp von Weitershausen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I would like to know what other zope.app packages your 3rd party > software is using. Well, CMFonFive uses zope.app.publisher.browser, because that's where the menus hang. CPS uses zope.app.container for the container events and the IAdding interface all over the place. CPSMailAccess uses zope.app.cache, zope.app.dublincore, zope.app.copypastemove, and of course zope.app.mail. (And also zope.app.pagetemplate and zope.app.publisher.browser.BrowserView but I suspect those are special hacks or something, that may be avoidable now, Tarek might know more.) And we use zope.app.testing a lot, which you suggested not to move if I understand you correctly. -- Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/ CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/ ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
