Re: [z3-five] Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using

2006-04-07 Thread Martijn Faassen

Martin Aspeli wrote:

On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 15:42:34 +0100, whit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

to echo Martijn, I've learned much more about zope3 thumbing through 
the z3 bundled with Zope 2 than I have looking at actual zope3 source, 
because I don't have a job that pays me to do pure zope3.


I would argue sending the whole enchilada is good social programming. 
one less download before someone explores the codebase and a lower 
barrier to experimentation if someone gets the itch to integrate a z3 
feature into zope2.


+10

zope.app smaller, better modularised - good
zope.app gone for the sake of purity - bad

(I suspect Philipp wasn't arging for this, though, only to use the Zope 
2 comparison as a guide)




Yes, this is how I understood it too after reading more carefully. Sorry 
Philipp for assuming too much.


Regards,

Martijn
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Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using

2006-04-06 Thread Martijn Faassen

Philipp von Weitershausen wrote:

we don't really want to ship all of zope.app with Zope 2. zope.app is
supposed to be the Zope 3 application server. It shouldn't be included
in Zope 2, especially since it requires twisted and such.


I'm worried about this approach, as it stops the Five project from 
exposing more Zope 3 functionality into Zope 2 directly, instead having 
to wait for a new release of Zope 2 that includes the missing bits.


I'd therefore recommend an approach that includes as much of zope.app 
into Zope 2 as is possible, while leaving out the obvious bits that 
shouldn't be there, like Twisted.


Regards,

Martijn

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Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using

2006-04-06 Thread Martijn Faassen

Hi everybody,

Just to sketch out my general points to be clear:

* I'm fine with a Zope 3 project that moves things from zope.app into zope.

* I'm also fine with Zope 2 usage guiding which things should be moved 
first.


* I'm not fine with a Zope 2 shipping with only parts of the 
library-like functionality of Zope 3. I think the Five project, along 
with Five users, should continue to have the ability to expose bits of 
Zope 3, no matter where they happen to be residing (zope or zope.app), 
into Zope 2.


* I don't see why shipping zope.app (as long as it exists) with Zope 2 
is a problem. It doesn't hurt except for taking up a bit more of cheap 
diskspace.


* You could argue for removing those bits of zope.app that really have 
nothing to do with Zope 2, but I'd still be careful here. Someone might 
*want* to work on a new publisher for Zope 2 that uses Twisted, using 
bits of Zope 3 that integrate with Twisted, and why make life more 
difficult for them?


* if you do not ship zope.app with Zope 2 anymore, the usage by Zope 2 
will stop being a guide for which things to move from zope.app into zope 
next.


Regards,

Martijn

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Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using

2006-04-06 Thread Brian Sutherland
On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 12:12:05AM +0200, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote:
 Brian Sutherland wrote:
  On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 11:18:46PM +0200, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote:
  Brian Sutherland wrote:
  On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 05:29:41PM +0200, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote:
  I would like to know what other zope.app packages your 3rd party
  software is using.
  Er, FiveSQLOS is using quite a lot actually:
 
  https://codespeak.net/svn/z3/sqlos/trunk/Zope2/FiveSQLOS/dependencies-meta.zcml
  https://codespeak.net/svn/z3/sqlos/trunk/Zope2/FiveSQLOS/dependencies.zcml
  Why are you loading zope.app.component/meta.zcml and
  zope.app.security/meta.zcml? Five should provide all the necessary
  directive registrations
  
  I havn't touched that code since the Zope2.8 days. I'll believe you for
  now and try testing it when the dust has settled.
 
 Ok. By the way, that should in Five should provide... also means
 that if Five doesn't provide the necessary directive registrations yet
 (which might very well be), then we need to make it.

Ok, I make some tests without importing any of those dependencies, the
issues I have found thus far:

* missing factory directive
* missing class directive
* zope.View permission not defined

This is not an exhaustive list and all of them came from the file:
http://codespeak.net/svn/z3/sqlos/trunk/src/sqlos/configure.zcml

 
  As for zope.app.rdb, I guess we'll have to move it down to zope.rdb.
  
  I can probably take care of that in the next days.
 
 Great. Note that I'm working on the jim-adapter branch. I suggest you do
 your modifications there as well.

sure.

 
 Philipp
 
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Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using

2006-04-06 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Martijn Faassen wrote:
 Philipp von Weitershausen wrote:
 we don't really want to ship all of zope.app with Zope 2. zope.app is
 supposed to be the Zope 3 application server. It shouldn't be included
 in Zope 2, especially since it requires twisted and such.
 
 I'm worried about this approach, as it stops the Five project from
 exposing more Zope 3 functionality into Zope 2 directly, instead having
 to wait for a new release of Zope 2 that includes the missing bits.

That's why I want to make sure that we include as much of zope.app in
Zope 2. But I'm just one man so I tried to focus on current usage. I'm
sure we all want to use as much as possible from Zope 3 in our Zope 2
projects in the future, but we have to draw the line for this release.
The freeze is 3 weeks away.

I'm aware that we might not get it all done for Zope 2.10. That's ok, we
can phase out Zope 2's zope.app usage over a longer time.

 I'd therefore recommend an approach that includes as much of zope.app
 into Zope 2 as is possible, while leaving out the obvious bits that
 shouldn't be there, like Twisted.

Then what's the point of zope.app at all? You're almost sounding like
you want to move everything in zope.* to zope.app.

I think in the past we didn't really understand what zope.app was. We
just put everything in there. That didn't work. The twisted thing is
just the biggest symptom. A much different, perhaps more subtle symptom
is the fact that reusing stuff from zope.app is harder than reusing
stuff that's independent of it. The fact that Zope 2 ships with zope.app
is not because it wants to but because it needs to. All the things that
*should* be reusable are tucked away there.

If we continue to put everything in the zope.app bag, we won't be able
to release more technology independently. I remember that you yourself
suggested to put widgets into a more accessible and reusable location.
I'm suggesting the same thing for all that other Zope 3 technology. Zope
2 is just the biggest motivator.

Philipp
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Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using

2006-04-06 Thread Martijn Faassen

Philipp von Weitershausen wrote:

Martijn Faassen wrote:


Philipp von Weitershausen wrote:


we don't really want to ship all of zope.app with Zope 2. zope.app is
supposed to be the Zope 3 application server. It shouldn't be included
in Zope 2, especially since it requires twisted and such.


I'm worried about this approach, as it stops the Five project from
exposing more Zope 3 functionality into Zope 2 directly, instead having
to wait for a new release of Zope 2 that includes the missing bits.



That's why I want to make sure that we include as much of zope.app in
Zope 2. But I'm just one man so I tried to focus on current usage. I'm
sure we all want to use as much as possible from Zope 3 in our Zope 2
projects in the future, but we have to draw the line for this release.
The freeze is 3 weeks away.

I'm aware that we might not get it all done for Zope 2.10. That's ok, we
can phase out Zope 2's zope.app usage over a longer time.


Okay, that's fine, as long as we're clear that zope.app will still be 
part of Zope 2.10.



I'd therefore recommend an approach that includes as much of zope.app
into Zope 2 as is possible, while leaving out the obvious bits that
shouldn't be there, like Twisted.



Then what's the point of zope.app at all? You're almost sounding like
you want to move everything in zope.* to zope.app.


Sorry, I was unclear. zope.app getting smaller good. Leaving zope.app 
out of Zope 2 in the next Zope 2 release, bad. There's a lot of stuff in 
zope.app that a lot of projects are using, and we may break stuff 
significantly if code is suddenly not there anymore.


[snip arguing against putting lots of stuff in zope.app]

I'm not arguing in favor of zope.app, I'm just arguing in favor of 
keeping zope.app included into Zope 2 releases for the time being, until 
we're a lot further with this process of moving things out of zope.app.


Regards,

Martijn

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Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using

2006-04-06 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Martijn Faassen wrote:
 That's why I want to make sure that we include as much of zope.app in
 Zope 2. But I'm just one man so I tried to focus on current usage. I'm
 sure we all want to use as much as possible from Zope 3 in our Zope 2
 projects in the future, but we have to draw the line for this release.
 The freeze is 3 weeks away.

 I'm aware that we might not get it all done for Zope 2.10. That's ok, we
 can phase out Zope 2's zope.app usage over a longer time.
 
 Okay, that's fine, as long as we're clear that zope.app will still be
 part of Zope 2.10.

In a realistic scenario that will still be the case. For example, I
don't see the zope.app.form beast dissected for this release.

 I'd therefore recommend an approach that includes as much of zope.app
 into Zope 2 as is possible, while leaving out the obvious bits that
 shouldn't be there, like Twisted.

 Then what's the point of zope.app at all? You're almost sounding like
 you want to move everything in zope.* to zope.app.
 
 Sorry, I was unclear. zope.app getting smaller good. Leaving zope.app
 out of Zope 2 in the next Zope 2 release, bad. There's a lot of stuff in
 zope.app that a lot of projects are using, and we may break stuff
 significantly if code is suddenly not there anymore.
 
 [snip arguing against putting lots of stuff in zope.app]
 
 I'm not arguing in favor of zope.app, I'm just arguing in favor of
 keeping zope.app included into Zope 2 releases for the time being, until
 we're a lot further with this process of moving things out of zope.app.

Agreed.

Thanks for your input.

Philipp
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Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using

2006-04-06 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Brian Sutherland wrote:
 Ok, I make some tests without importing any of those dependencies, the
 issues I have found thus far:
 
 * missing factory directive

Recent Five releases should have it. It's deprecated now, though.

 * missing class directive

It's in the recent bugfix releases. I just haven't gotten around
announcing them since, partially because there's another important
bugfix in the pipe that would classify for another round of bugfix releases.

 * zope.View permission not defined

This can easily be fixed by redefining the zope.View permission to the
zope.View permission:

  meta:redefinePermission
  from=zope.View
  to=zope2.View
  /


By the way, I'm keeping an updated version of the proposal at
http://codespeak.net/svn/user/philikon/MakeZopeAppSmaller.txt (will
periodically sync this with the one at zope.org).

Philipp

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Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using

2006-04-06 Thread Dieter Maurer
Martijn Faassen wrote at 2006-4-6 11:51 +0200:
 ...
I'd therefore recommend an approach that includes as much of zope.app 
into Zope 2 as is possible, while leaving out the obvious bits that 
shouldn't be there, like Twisted.

To the contrary, I am interested to get a Zope 2 as small
as possible.

-- 
Dieter
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Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using

2006-04-06 Thread Martin Aspeli

On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 15:42:34 +0100, whit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

to echo Martijn, I've learned much more about zope3 thumbing through the  
z3 bundled with Zope 2 than I have looking at actual zope3 source,  
because I don't have a job that pays me to do pure zope3.


I would argue sending the whole enchilada is good social programming.  
one less download before someone explores the codebase and a lower  
barrier to experimentation if someone gets the itch to integrate a z3  
feature into zope2.


+10

zope.app smaller, better modularised - good
zope.app gone for the sake of purity - bad

(I suspect Philipp wasn't arging for this, though, only to use the Zope 2  
comparison as a guide)


Martin

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(muted)

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Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using

2006-04-05 Thread Lennart Regebro
On 4/5/06, Philipp von Weitershausen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I would like to know what other zope.app packages your 3rd party
 software is using.

Well, CMFonFive uses zope.app.publisher.browser, because that's where
the menus hang.

CPS uses zope.app.container for the container events and the IAdding
interface all over the place.

CPSMailAccess uses zope.app.cache, zope.app.dublincore,
zope.app.copypastemove, and of course zope.app.mail.
(And also zope.app.pagetemplate and
zope.app.publisher.browser.BrowserView but I suspect those are special
hacks or something, that may be avoidable now, Tarek might know more.)

And we use zope.app.testing a lot, which you suggested not to move if
I understand you correctly.

--
Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/
CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/
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Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using

2006-04-05 Thread Martin Aspeli


Lennart Regebro-2 wrote:
 
 Well, CMFonFive uses zope.app.publisher.browser, because that's where
 the menus hang.
 

We would like to start using browser menus in Plone



 CPS uses zope.app.container for the container events and the IAdding
 interface all over the place.
 

We may want to reuse zope 3 containment concepts in Archetypes over time.



 CPSMailAccess uses zope.app.cache, zope.app.dublincore,
 zope.app.copypastemove, and of course zope.app.mail.
 

We'd certainly want DC and Mail in Plone over time. Cache and copypastemove
sounds like it would be useful, but I don't know what they do.



 And we use zope.app.testing a lot, which you suggested not to move if
 I understand you correctly.
 

Anything to make testing easier, please. :)

Martin
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Sent from the Zope - Dev forum at Nabble.com.

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Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using

2006-04-05 Thread Bernd Dorn


On 05.04.2006, at 17:29, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote:


 implementing this proposal on the
jim-adapter branch of Zope 3.

I would like to know what other zope.app packages your 3rd party
software is using. If thereare any other used than the ones  
mentioned in
 the proposal, we'll have to move them out of zope.app. I'd like to  
ask

for your help on that, otherwise future Zope 2 versions might not
anymore include the package you're using.


i use zope.app.cachedescriptors in zope2 for various projects

regards, bernd
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Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using

2006-04-05 Thread Paul Winkler
On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 05:29:41PM +0200, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote:
 I would like to know what other zope.app packages your 3rd party
 software is using. If thereare any other used than the ones mentioned in
  the proposal, we'll have to move them out of zope.app. I'd like to ask
 for your help on that, otherwise future Zope 2 versions might not
 anymore include the package you're using.

Aside from stuff mentioned on your proposal, we are using macros from
zope.app.rotterdam.standardmacros.

-- 

Paul Winkler
http://www.slinkp.com
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Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using

2006-04-05 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Bernd Dorn wrote:
 i use zope.app.cachedescriptors in zope2 for various projects

You probably mean zope.cachedescriptors. That isn't part of zope.app and
therefore no problem in the zope.app vs. Zope 2 issue.

Philipp

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Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using

2006-04-05 Thread Lennart Regebro
On 4/5/06, Lennart Regebro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 CPSMailAccess uses zope.app.cache, zope.app.dublincore,
 zope.app.copypastemove, and of course zope.app.mail.
 (And also zope.app.pagetemplate and
 zope.app.publisher.browser.BrowserView but I suspect those are special
 hacks or something, that may be avoidable now, Tarek might know more.)

On an unrelated note, I would like to point out how cool it is that
the CPSMailAccess uses so many parts of Zope3 in Zope2, and how well
it works. The calendar uses almost nothing of zope.app directly,
although it's a heavy user of Five integrational stuff.

--
Lennart Regebro, Nuxeo http://www.nuxeo.com/
CPS Content Management http://www.cps-project.org/
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Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using

2006-04-05 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Lennart Regebro wrote:
 On 4/5/06, Philipp von Weitershausen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I would like to know what other zope.app packages your 3rd party
 software is using.
 
 Well, CMFonFive uses zope.app.publisher.browser, because that's where
 the menus hang.

Menu support will be moved to zope.menu.

 CPS uses zope.app.container for the container events and the IAdding
 interface all over the place.

Container support will be moved to zope.container once I figure out how
to sanely deal with existing pickles.

Is anyone in Zope 2 persisting zope.app.container.btree.BTreeContainer,
zope.app.container.ordered.OrderedContainern or using the contained
proxy (which is also persistent)?

 CPSMailAccess uses zope.app.cache, zope.app.dublincore,
 zope.app.copypastemove, and of course zope.app.mail.

I've added these four to my list. They'll appear in an updated version
of the proposal. I propose to move them all down to zope.* as they are
(zope.app.mail should probably be called zope.sendmail). They're all not
very complicated cases except zope.app.cache which has zope.app.form
dependencies.

I'd be glad if you could help me with moving them. I'm working on the
jim-adapter branch. Straight moves usually just entail

1. svn mv'ing the directory
2. fixing up imports inside and outside the package
3. running the tests
3. providing BBB (I'm still figuring out a good way to do this w/o
getting in circular import troubles)

 (And also zope.app.pagetemplate and
 zope.app.publisher.browser.BrowserView but I suspect those are special
 hacks or something, that may be avoidable now, Tarek might know more.)

BrowserView will move to zope.publisher.browser. I haven't really made
up my mind about zope.app.pagetemplate yet. Some use cases might be
helpful. I'm also very much open for suggestions and, of course, for
help :). The proposal still isn't finished regarding many important
details. I myself am not sure what to do with some of the packages or
the things we need from some packages.

 And we use zope.app.testing a lot, which you suggested not to move if
 I understand you correctly.

Indeed. What from zope.app.testing are you using? If it's
PlacelessSetup, I bet it's not needed (on Zope 2.9 that is). If you
need Component Architecture setup and teardown, use zope.component.testing.

Philipp
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Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using

2006-04-05 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Brian Sutherland wrote:
 On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 05:29:41PM +0200, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote:
 I would like to know what other zope.app packages your 3rd party
 software is using.
 
 Er, FiveSQLOS is using quite a lot actually:
 
 https://codespeak.net/svn/z3/sqlos/trunk/Zope2/FiveSQLOS/dependencies-meta.zcml
 https://codespeak.net/svn/z3/sqlos/trunk/Zope2/FiveSQLOS/dependencies.zcml

Why are you loading zope.app.component/meta.zcml and
zope.app.security/meta.zcml? Five should provide all the necessary
directive registrations

As for zope.app.rdb, I guess we'll have to move it down to zope.rdb.

 zope.app.container

Will move to zope.container.

 zope.app.location

Moved to zope.location.

 zope.app.exception

What from zope.app.exception are you using? If it's just UserError, than
that's ok. It's moved to zope.exceptions now.

Philipp
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Re: [Zope-dev] What from zope.app are you using

2006-04-05 Thread Philipp von Weitershausen
Brian Sutherland wrote:
 On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 11:18:46PM +0200, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote:
 Brian Sutherland wrote:
 On Wed, Apr 05, 2006 at 05:29:41PM +0200, Philipp von Weitershausen wrote:
 I would like to know what other zope.app packages your 3rd party
 software is using.
 Er, FiveSQLOS is using quite a lot actually:

 https://codespeak.net/svn/z3/sqlos/trunk/Zope2/FiveSQLOS/dependencies-meta.zcml
 https://codespeak.net/svn/z3/sqlos/trunk/Zope2/FiveSQLOS/dependencies.zcml
 Why are you loading zope.app.component/meta.zcml and
 zope.app.security/meta.zcml? Five should provide all the necessary
 directive registrations
 
 I havn't touched that code since the Zope2.8 days. I'll believe you for
 now and try testing it when the dust has settled.

Ok. By the way, that should in Five should provide... also means
that if Five doesn't provide the necessary directive registrations yet
(which might very well be), then we need to make it.

 As for zope.app.rdb, I guess we'll have to move it down to zope.rdb.
 
 I can probably take care of that in the next days.

Great. Note that I'm working on the jim-adapter branch. I suggest you do
your modifications there as well.

Philipp

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