Thanks for the excellent input folks. Pulling back a bit to the problems that need to be solved, the list here is very similar to the requests we see from Maya customers. There are some cool problems to solve here, but as Ed mentioned - there is a core level of usability that is missing that should be our critical starting point. Once we have something worth trying, I can send beta invites for those interested.
We are continually listening so feel free to add anything that comes to mind, and I will certainly keep this list posted as we progress. Thanks, Laurence ________________________________ From: [email protected] [[email protected]] on behalf of Nuno Conceicao [[email protected]] Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 6:23 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Softimage to Maya rendering requests 4. Please dont forget drag n drop funcionality! Dragging objects to partitions, shaders to partitions, overrides from partition to partition, partitions from passes to another pass, and probably a few more I dont remember now... 5. Light Partitions that work pretty much like the object partitions do On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 10:05 PM, Laurence Cymet <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Thanks for the input guys. The timing of my inquiry is not ideal, but in the interests of moving forward I appreciate you taking the time to speak up. So here's what I'm hearing is missing from Maya re: render layers: 1) Stability is critical, no more "error parsing argument" broken layers, setups must be stable, and clear indications of missing dependencies are needed with the ability to address without breaking setups 2) Layer overrides (shader assignments, attr changes) need to be made on a sub-set of the layer contents (a partition) - not directly on the object/attr itself. So that you just have to pop an item into that partition to inherit the override. Changes to referenced input scene data should clearly indicate what is not included in a partition so that new stuff can be easily identified and just be popped into the original partition to receive the same overrides. 3) All overrides and memberships within a layer need to be clearly indicated in one UI (without the requirement to enter the layer) Don't hesitate to call me out if I'm not getting something - this list is to ensure I understand what's missing, don't let me put words in your mouth. Is there a way we can actually improve on the process? Perhaps overrides and assignments could be done conditionally with a dynamic rule? Is a stack better than a node graph? Let me know if you have had any wishes in the past. As to the questions raised: Yes - you can manage overrides with the attribute spreadsheet, which does include a newly added filter search function. But as you say, it does not clearly indicate what is happening in the layer specifically. Why are we doing this now and not years ago? A good question that deserves an answer. Maya is as much an "OS for CGI" as it is an out of box DCC (in many ways more so), and many Maya customers have built their own scene segmentation tools in Maya to accommodate their specific pipeline - so improving render layers was not a priority for these customers and the focus went elsewhere. Focus has turned back on the out-of-box experience, so we are exploring all options for improving this area. Thanks, Laurence From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf Of Ed Manning Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 3:22 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: Softimage to Maya rendering requests Thanks for speaking up, Laurence. I'm sure your intentions are good, and the effort is appreciated. We are however, very upset with your bosses' decision-making and how it has played out so far. Please don't take it personally. It is rather a bitter pill that you guys are only speaking to us now about this. Lighting and rendering has been my area of specialization for nearly 20 years of Softimage use and a bit less than 3 years in Maya. I would very much like to participate in any discussion you'd like to have about possible improvements to Maya's L&R workflow, as I am clearly going to have to deal with it more and more. The primary issue to me, other than render layers simply breaking for mysterious reasons (a complaint I hear far often from Maya-only artists than my limited Maya experience would have suggested to me), is the workflow and organizational overhead required of the user. For example: if I want to make a pass in which, say, primary visibility is turned off for a variety of objects, regardless of their parenting, in Softimage the workflow is: 1. make new pass (1 click) 2. select n objects (some # of clicks, possibly some rectangle drags, worst case is n clicks) 3. put them in a partition (1 click) 4. put a visibility property onto the partition (one middle-click drag&drop) 5. open the visibility property, uncheck primary ray visibility (2 clicks) A total of 6 to (n+5) clicks, with the range heavily biased toward the low end. In Maya, the workflow as I've learned it would be more like: 1. select everything (probably one click, maybe with a rectangle drag, or one hotkey combination) 2. make a new render layer (1 click) 3. select object #1 (1 click) 4. go to the attribute editor, select the render stats rollout, right-click to make a layer override, uncheck primary ray visibility (3 clicks minimum) 5. repeat steps 3 & 4 (n-1) times A total of 2 + (n*4) clicks. For any number of objects over 1 (!) the Softimage workflow is much easier and faster. More importantly, by simply looking at the partition contents in an explorer view (another thing that would be good to have in Maya), I can see at a glance which objects have had their visibility overridden. Is there even a way to do this in Maya? Maybe I could do this through the spreadsheet (which I only just heard about)? Can I do the overrides that way, for that matter? I guess that would moot the above comparison of clicks, but it suggests other issues. For example, if I'm taking over someone else's work, or even revisiting my own from months or years earlier, in Soft I can look at the passes, wonder, "hmmm, what's this partition here for?" and open it up to see instantly that it's a primary ray visibility override. If the spreadsheet is the only place in Maya where the information can be sifted and represented globally for all of the scene, I'd have to know what I was looking for or do an exhaustive number of queries and sorts. Now, I imagine there's a script to help with this. Assuming there is, I guess I could find it somewhere online, download it, turn it into a button, and stick it on a toolshelf somewhere. The thing is, the workflow is RIDDLED with these "little things." And I freelance. I would have to compile and maintain a substantial library of scripts and plug-ins, and be able to install them every time I sit down to a new desktop environment, right? This, in order to do nothing special at all, just reduce the time-suckage and annoyance factor. So, by all means, let's continue the discussion! Ed Manning
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