Four people died in the fire I am referring to. On September 7, 1982,
an early-morning fire at a textile plant in Washington killed four
members of the National Spinning Company fire brigade.
Joe
craig.pr...@ch2m.com wrote:
I have heard this quoted from various sources :
"The National Fire Protection Association has no record of more than two deaths in a
completely sprinkled building where the system was properly operating. Fire sprinkler
systems are very effective and may cut fire deaths by one-half to two-thirds in
properties where they are installed. (Congressional Fire Services Institute)"
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
http://www.ch2m.com
-----Original Message-----
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 10:20 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Boat Storage
Given a properly designed, installed and maintained sprinkler system.
Do exits matter? How many cases do we have of a bedroom catching on fire where
the sleeping occupant wakes up from getting wet or in the recent case didn't
wake up.
Do rated separations matter? I've seen fires in the unsprinklered side go
through code complying rated walls only to be stopped by the sprinklers with no
fire damage to the sprinklered side. How about the high rise fires that burn
until they reached a sprinklered floor.
Does smoke control matter? If there is residual smoke it's minor and well
diluted.
Do fire hydrants and access roads matter? In 10 years with an average of 16 sprinklered fires in St. Paul, MN I was only aware of the use of the FDC 4 times. And actually 2 of those were for the standpipes in unsprinklered buildings. I talked to the Chief's on most of those calls about issue they had.
Fire alarms? I contented if it's sprinklered fire alarms should not operate. Fire alarms are to warning people about uncontrolled fires that are a threat. Uh, if the sprinklers operated is it a threat? Do you know there is a trend in FD's only sending a Chief or one company to investigate water flow alarms or fire alarms. The FD's get it, the number of alarms where that is the only indication of a problem that result in fire is about 0 (not 0 but real close). In 18 years of riding big red trucks I never went to a fire that was only reported by an alarm. These FD's send a full assignment if they get a phone call that follows up on the alarm.
Basically where is the body count? I've been on this forum for a very long
time I don't recall any discussion ever about a fire death in a sprinklered
building. I've always asked national figures in conversation about actual fire
deaths in sprinklered buildings that they have been a part of. So far none is
the answer. Back in '99-'00 when I saw shepparding through the IFC requirement
for all buildings with an R be sprinkler I asked the committee about their
knowledge of fire deaths and sprinklers. Either they had none
or thought I was being rhetorical. Where is the cost benefit of further
mitigated losses with the other stuff after sprinklers?
So one might argue about the balanced design crap and the possibility of
sprinkler failure. If it's properly designed, installed and maintained has
there ever been a failure? Maybe but rare. We also know really bad sprinkler
jobs still put out a lot of fire. We tried all the other fire protection
schemes with in my opinion limited success. Talking about the code from
Hammurabi to the early 1980's. So if the proper or incorrect sprinklers fail
we are back to the designs of the yesteryear and we know the outcome. We have
the choice to put money into the backup plans which will fail or money into the
sprinkler to make sure they don't. This is a cultural shift that is occurring
since the late 1980's. And just like our vested interests pushing on direction
the lobbies for the other interests are arguing the opposite slowing the proper
transformation.
So I wasn't bashing FPE's. I also wasn't suggesting how one gets a proper system - that may or may not involve an FPE. I was summarizing all the other FPE type stuff as marginal effect after proper sprinklers.
I know there are exceptions to every thing I said. For every exception anyone can come up with 1000's of examples exist of the normal. Perhaps someone has knowledge of a fire death in a properly sprinklered building. I think Joe Hankins once spoke of 4 deaths but I recall something wasn't right. From a minimum public policy point of view I don't see the point in planning for the exception when they are very, very, very rare.
Or perhaps it's just my memory?
Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com
Mail: P.O. Box 69
Waverly, MN 55390
Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW
Waverly, MN 55390
-----Original Message-----
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 5:08 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Boat Storage
And hey if it's properly sprinklered (to an
extent) fire protection engineering is a marginal concern.
Curious comment. Care to expand on that?
Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, Connecticut
www.fpdc.com
860.535.2080
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