I think the catch is in their wording, "where the system was properly operating", so one has to wonder how many deaths did occur in sprinklered buildings where the systems were not maintained or properly operating.
Either way, I'm sure statistically there have far more deaths in unsprinkled than sprinkled buildings. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 [email protected] http://www.ch2m.com -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Joe Hankins Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 11:45 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Boat Storage Four people died in the fire I am referring to. On September 7, 1982, an early-morning fire at a textile plant in Washington killed four members of the National Spinning Company fire brigade. Joe [email protected] wrote: > I have heard this quoted from various sources : > > "The National Fire Protection Association has no record of more than two > deaths in a completely sprinkled building where the system was properly > operating. Fire sprinkler systems are very effective and may cut fire deaths > by one-half to two-thirds in properties where they are installed. > (Congressional Fire Services Institute)" > > > Craig L. Prahl, CET > Fire Protection Specialist > Mechanical Department > CH2MHILL > Lockwood Greene > 1500 International Drive > PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - > 864.599.8439 [email protected] http://www.ch2m.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris > Cahill > Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 10:20 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Boat Storage > > Given a properly designed, installed and maintained sprinkler system. > > Do exits matter? How many cases do we have of a bedroom catching on fire > where the sleeping occupant wakes up from getting wet or in the recent case > didn't wake up. > > Do rated separations matter? I've seen fires in the unsprinklered side go > through code complying rated walls only to be stopped by the sprinklers with > no fire damage to the sprinklered side. How about the high rise fires that > burn until they reached a sprinklered floor. > > Does smoke control matter? If there is residual smoke it's minor and well > diluted. > > Do fire hydrants and access roads matter? In 10 years with an average of 16 > sprinklered fires in St. Paul, MN I was only aware of the use of the FDC 4 > times. And actually 2 of those were for the standpipes in unsprinklered > buildings. I talked to the Chief's on most of those calls about issue they > had. > > Fire alarms? I contented if it's sprinklered fire alarms should not operate. > Fire alarms are to warning people about uncontrolled fires that are a > threat. Uh, if the sprinklers operated is it a threat? Do you know there is > a trend in FD's only sending a Chief or one company to investigate water flow > alarms or fire alarms. The FD's get it, the number of alarms where that is > the only indication of a problem that result in fire is about 0 (not 0 but > real close). In 18 years of riding big red trucks I never went to a fire > that was only reported by an alarm. These FD's send a full assignment if > they get a phone call that follows up on the alarm. > > Basically where is the body count? I've been on this forum for a very long > time I don't recall any discussion ever about a fire death in a sprinklered > building. I've always asked national figures in conversation about actual > fire deaths in sprinklered buildings that they have been a part of. So far > none is the answer. Back in '99-'00 when I saw shepparding through the IFC > requirement for all buildings with an R be sprinkler I asked the committee > about their knowledge of fire deaths and sprinklers. Either they had none > or thought I was being rhetorical. Where is the cost benefit of further > mitigated losses with the other stuff after sprinklers? > > So one might argue about the balanced design crap and the possibility of > sprinkler failure. If it's properly designed, installed and maintained has > there ever been a failure? Maybe but rare. We also know really bad > sprinkler jobs still put out a lot of fire. We tried all the other fire > protection schemes with in my opinion limited success. Talking about the > code from Hammurabi to the early 1980's. So if the proper or incorrect > sprinklers fail we are back to the designs of the yesteryear and we know the > outcome. We have the choice to put money into the backup plans which will > fail or money into the sprinkler to make sure they don't. This is a cultural > shift that is occurring since the late 1980's. And just like our vested > interests pushing on direction the lobbies for the other interests are > arguing the opposite slowing the proper transformation. > > So I wasn't bashing FPE's. I also wasn't suggesting how one gets a proper > system - that may or may not involve an FPE. I was summarizing all the other > FPE type stuff as marginal effect after proper sprinklers. > > I know there are exceptions to every thing I said. For every exception > anyone can come up with 1000's of examples exist of the normal. Perhaps > someone has knowledge of a fire death in a properly sprinklered building. I > think Joe Hankins once spoke of 4 deaths but I recall something wasn't right. > From a minimum public policy point of view I don't see the point in planning > for the exception when they are very, very, very rare. > > Or perhaps it's just my memory? > > Chris Cahill, P.E. > Fire Protection Engineer > Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. > > 763-658-4483 > 763-658-4921 fax > > Email: [email protected] > > Mail: P.O. Box 69 > Waverly, MN 55390 > > Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW > Waverly, MN 55390 > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd > Williams > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 5:08 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Boat Storage > > > >> And hey if it's properly sprinklered (to an >> extent) fire protection engineering is a marginal concern. >> > > Curious comment. Care to expand on that? > > > Todd G. Williams, PE > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > Stonington, Connecticut > www.fpdc.com > 860.535.2080 > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
