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I think you are taking my comments a little out of context but that is fine since it reinforces your ideas to do so. The iraq comparison is a little silly though isn't it? john harris webber-camden comments continue below > > I am almost at a loss as to how to respond. It is > as if you are saying that > no one was forcing the residents of Iraq to live > there, or that no one is > forcing me to pay taxes or refrain from murdering > various folks I don't > like. On a certain level, this is true, but when > you live in the real > world, you realize there are trade offs that make > the "force" issue > irrelevant. > > People work at Wal-Mart for the same reason they > work anywhere else. I'm > sure there are people out there "willing" to work > for $1 or $2 an hour, just > as there are people out there who rent their bodies > for sexual services. > That doesn't mean they are happy doing so or that > they think it's a good job > or fair wage. The idea that just because a person > will do something > reprehensible, grueling, difficult, demeaning or > unfair somehow makes it > right to ask is outrageous. Just because you can > put the gun of family > starvation to a man or woman's head and make them > slave for you or some > corporation does not make it right for you to do so. walmart and other "unfair" wage payers as you state it, are not holding a starvation gun to anyones head. They offer jobs at the wage they are willing to pay and they get enough people to sign up. If they didn't they would raise the wage until they did. As it stands there the market rate for stocking shelves at walmart is what it is. We all have choices. > > And before you say that doesn't happen in the US, > there's always welfare, > there's always charity, there's always this or that > - I'm sure there's not. > Not always, not for everyone. These services are > difficult to find, > difficult to receive. There are barriers erected at > every step of the way > to make sure that it's not easy. To cull out those > who aren't smart enough > to figure out the system. Why are so many mentally > ill in St. Paul homeless > and without assistance? No mystery to me! I've > been on welfare. It's > incredibly tough to get on even when you meet all > the criteria. > I believe the mentally ill are not relevent to this discussion. because they are homeless has nothing to do with walmart. Getting welfare isn't supposed to be easy, if it were we all would be getting it. > To me the reason why we have minimum wage is so that > the lowest paying job > out there should be better than whatever you can get > on welfare. If > McDonalds or Wal-Mart employees are routinely > seeking a lot of governmental > assistance services, then that's an indicator that > the minimum wage is not > high enough. the minimum wage skews the labor market by not letting the price of labor move to an equillibrium point below it if the market so determines. This also inflates prices so what you gain in a false higher wage is lost in higher prices for goods. > > The mobility of workers is true in the same way that > an affect that kills > only 10% of the population per year is survivable. > Workers are mobile. > **As a group**, they will eventually find new work > and be employed there. > However, there is a cost to forcing workers to move > constantly seeking new > employment. Not only is it a cost in human effort > and stress, but it also > causes you to lose the weakest members of your work > force. Some of them > will be unable to move, unable to sell their house > or find a new apartment > near the new work. Some won't have access to public > transportation or a car > and when they were within walking distance of the > Wal-Mart, but aren't in > walking distance of the McDonalds, then they go > unemployed. Maybe the new > hours don't work with their previous child care > arrangements or ride-share. > Maybe all kinds of things. When you start talking > about large groups of > workers, you must be aware that not all of them will > be equally mobile. > When you require them to move from worksite to > worksite, not all of them > will be able. Sure, maybe 90% will move. But you > have forced 10% into > starvation just to satisfy a utopian ideal of free > market economy which > doesn't exist in the real world. there is nothing utopian about free market economics. what you listed are all choices. Choices we all have to make. You may feel forced to take an unfair wage at walmart but you really choose to work there. When I say workers move, I don't mean they sell their homes. walmarts are rarely the only employer in an area. Having children is a choice and responsibility we must deal with. this doesn't mean walmart must pay me more because i have them. They can't deny me employment based on that but they don't have to pay me more than the childless person next to me. As for transportation issues. I haven't taken the bus in years because I choose to drive but when i did, I found I could get nearly anywhere as most things were within a mile from a bus route. maybe that has changed since the transit authority is taking money from the bus service and pouring it into the stagnant light rail line. If you want to improve mobility, kill the lrt and put the savings back into busses. Busses can be routed wherever you want them to go. trains cannot. > > I realize some people think that's an acceptable > loss. Having been one of > those 10%, I do not. > > Mary Baker, > East Side > > _________________________________________________________________ > Enjoy a special introductory offer for dial-up > Internet access � limited > time only! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup > > _____________________________________________ > NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your > password - visit: > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul > > Archive Address: > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ > _____________________________________________ > For state and national discussions see: > http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html > For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! 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